>> AFTER YEARS OF TURMOIL AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY THE UNIVERSITY HAS NAMED A NEW PRESIDENT.

YOU WILL RECALL THE SCHOOL WAS HOME TO MAJOR PROTESTS AFTER OCTOBER 7 AND NOW ALONG WITH OTHER HIGHER LEARNING INSTITUTIONS IT WAS STRUGGLING TO MANAGE THREATS FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

LEE BOLLINGER IS ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST WELL-KNOWN ACADEMIC LEADERS INCLUDING COLUMBIA'S PRESIDENT FOR 20 YEARS.

IN HIS NEW BOOK , UNIVERSITY: A RECKONING, IT IS A CALL FOR ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS TO STAND UP AGAINST PRESSURE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> PLEASURE.

>> I SHOULD SAY MISTER PRESIDENT BECAUSE YOU HAVE LED TWO OF OUR MOST PRESTIGIOUS AND COMPETITIVE UNIVERSITIES .

UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

AND I ACTUALLY SHOULD MENTION THAT THESE WERE NOT PLACID TIMES WHEN YOU WERE LEADING THESE INSTITUTIONS.

THERE WERE STUDENT PROTESTS, CONGRESSIONAL SCRUTINY, POLITICAL PRESSURE, POLITICAL CURRENTS.

BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU WROTE THIS BOOK THINKING THERE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL ABOUT THIS MOMENT SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS MOMENT THAT STRIKES YOU AS DIFFERENT?

>> THE INTRUSION INTO ACADEMIC AFFAIRS OF UNIVERSITIES, SO THAT IS NOT REALLY HAPPENED CERTAINLY NOT TO THIS DEGREE FOR DECADES.

YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE McCARTHY PERIOD WHICH IS ABOUT ONE SENATOR LEADING THE CAMPAIGN OF INTOLERANCE .

YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THAT.

FOR SOMETHING COMPARABLE AND THE LEVEL OF INTRUSION, THE THREAT TO ACADEMIC FREEDOM AND THE NEED TO THINK ABOUT UNIVERSITIES AND THEIR ROLE IN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS MUCH MORE IMPERATIVE TODAY THAN IT REALLY HAS BEEN IN MODERN HISTORY.

THAT IS REALLY THE PRECIPITATING REASON FOR THE BOOK.

>> IN YOUR BE A --IN YOUR BOOK YOU SAY WE ARE IN SHORT WITNESSING A TECTONIC SHIFT IN AMERICA TOWARD THE USE OF AUTHORITARIAN TACTICS THAT THREATEN OUR DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

THE UNIVERSITY IS AMONG THE FIRST ALONG WITH THE PRESS, OF THE MAJOR INDEPENDENT INSTITUTIONS IN SOCIETY TO FEEL THE BRUNT OF THIS NEW AND FRIGHTENING TRANSFORMATION.

YOUR POINT HERE IS THAT YES THE UNIVERSITIES AND THE PRESS ARE ON THE LEADING EDGE BUT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

WHAT CONVINCES YOU OF THAT?

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S BOTH ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND FUNDAMENTAL VALUES IN THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE SEEN FROM THE VERY START OF THE ADMINISTRATION EFFORTS TO TRY TO SILENCE AND REALLY ATTACK LAW FIRMS AND MEDIA, CIVIL SERVICE , INDEPENDENT AGENCIES THAT PROVIDE THE NATION WITH OBJECTIVE INFORMATION LIKE THE BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS , AND THEN UNIVERSITIES.

THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS ALSO FACING THIS.

IF THERE'S ANY KIND OF OPPOSITION THERE IS AN EFFORT TO COME DOWN VERY HARD ON THEM AND TRY TO SILENCE THEM.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU REALLY CANNOT HAVE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE COMMITTED TO A DEMOCRACY AND IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE COMMITTED TO A NATION THAT VALUES KNOWLEDGE.

AND, INDEPENDENT INFORMATION AND KNOWLEDGE AND THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE BEEN FOR THE PAST CENTURY.

IT WOULD BE A TRAGEDY TO LOSE THAT.

>> AS A PERSON WHO, PRESUMABLY THROUGH YOUR OWN WORK AS A SCHOLAR, AS A LAWYER, AS A LEADER OF THESE PROMINENT INSTITUTIONS YOU'VE MET A LOT OF THESE INDUSTRY LEADERS AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE POINTED OUT IS THAT A LOT OF THEM FOLDED OVER PRETTY FAST.

AMAZON WAS GOING TO, OR TALKED ABOUT HAVING SOME SORT OF INDICATOR ON THEIR WEBSITE OF THE COST OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TARIFF SCHEME ON DIFFERENT PRODUCTS.

OF COURSE HE THREATENED THEM AND THEY IMMEDIATELY FOLDED.

SOME OF THE FINEST, MOST DISTINGUISHED LAWYERS IN THE COUNTRY, HE THREATENED THEM, THEY FOLDED.

JUST WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THEY CAPITULATED SO QUICKLY.

>> I THINK THIS IS COME , THE WHOLE SORT OF AFFAIR HAS TAKEN PEOPLE BY SURPRISE.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF ASSAULT ON BASIC VALUES AND BASIC INSTITUTIONS AND SO WE WERE NOT PREPARED FOR IT.

I THINK IT'S JUST A COMBINATION OF, IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO FACE A SITUATION IN WHICH THE GOVERNMENT'S FULL POWER, WHICH IS IMMENSE, CAN BE BROUGHT DOWN ON YOU AND FACE WHAT EVERYBODY WILL ALWAYS SAY , AN EXISTENTIAL CHOICE.

DO YOU CAPITULATE ?

DO YOU TRY TO FIND A WAY OUT OF THIS EVEN IF THAT MEANS SACRIFICING SOME OF YOUR VALUES?

OR DO YOU STAND UP AND TRY TO FIGHT BACK?

THAT'S A REALLY HARD PROBLEM AND I AM VERY SYMPATHETIC TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FELT, AND INSTITUTIONS WHO HAVE FELT THEY HAD TO FIND A WAY TO SAVE THEIR INSTITUTIONS BY NEGOTIATION AND CONCILIATION.

BUT IT IS THE CASE THAT THE ONLY WAY IN WHICH YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY COUNTER THIS IS BY COLLECTIVE ACTION.

IT'S NOT BY AN INDIVIDUAL INSTITUTION OR A SINGLE SECTOR OF SOCIETY.

EVERYBODY WHO WRITES ABOUT THE DEMOCRACY, THE END OF DEMOCRACY AND SO ON, ALL THE SCHOLARSHIP POINTS OUT THAT IT IS ONLY WHEN CIVIL SOCIETY BROADLY SORT OF BACKS AND RISES UP AND SAYS THIS CANNOT STAND, THAT YOU REALLY HAVE EFFECTIVE RESISTANCE.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE UNIVERSITIES AND LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

SOME PEOPLE SEE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AS PLACES YOU GO TO LEARN STUFF SO YOU CAN GET A JOB.

THEY ARE ENGINES OF THE ECONOMY.

WHY SHOULD SOMEONE PERHAPS IT DIDN'T HAVE THE CHANCE TO GO TO UNIVERSITY EMBRACE THAT IDEA?

>> I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IN THEIR HEARTS THAT HAVING MAJOR INSTITUTIONS OF ALL KINDS, FROM COMMUNITY COLLEGES ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO THE RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES, THAT IT IS REALLY VALUABLE FOR SOCIETY TO HAVE THIS KIND OF HUMAN EFFORT TO EXPAND KNOWLEDGE BECAUSE IT BENEFITS THE SOCIETY AND ALL KINDS OF WAYS.

EVERYTHING FROM ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT TO SIMPLY MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND LIFE.

AND IT APPLIES NOT JUST TO THE PEOPLE WHO COME AND OUR STUDENTS OR FACULTY WHO ARE THERE, IT BENEFITS EVERYBODY IN SOCIETY.

I THINK ALSO THAT THERE IS A CAMPAIGN THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY YEARS .

PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CHARACTERIZE UNIVERSITIES IN VERY NEGATIVE STEREOTYPES , AS FILLED WITH INTOLERANCE, IDEOLOGICAL, NOT SCHOLARLY, TOO COSTLY, ET CETERA .

AND WHILE THERE ARE CRITICISMS ABOUT UNIVERSITIES, MANY OF WHICH I HAVE MADE MYSELF, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE PARTS OF SOCIETY AND YOU SAY WHICH ONES HAVE THE MOST INTEGRITY IN PURSUING WHAT THEIR MISSION IS, I THINK UNIVERSITIES ARE AT THE VERY FOREFRONT OF THAT AND THE PROOF IS IN PART THAT EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD WANTS TO COME AND ATTEND UNIVERSITIES IN AMERICA BECAUSE THEY REALLY ARE THE STANDARD FOR THIS.

>> WELL THAT MIGHT NOT BE THE CASE ANY MORE.

THE NUMBER OF INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS COMING TO THE UNITED STATES HAS REALLY FALLEN PRECIPITOUSLY.

>> BUT NOT BECAUSE OF THE QUALITY OF UNIVERSITIES.

>> BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL CLIMATE.

THE IRONY IS THESE CONCRETE FINANCIAL PRESSURES BEING PLACED ON UNIVERSITIES ARE HAVING AN EFFECT ON KIND OF THE, RESEARCH FLOW.

TOP SCHOLARS AND RESEARCH DOLLARS ARE FLOWING TO CANADA , TO CHINA.

SOME $400 MILLION IN GRANTS AND CONTRACTS FROZEN AT COLUMBIA.

$510 MILLION AT BROWN.

$1 BILLION AT CORNELL.

$790 MILLION AT NORTHWESTERN.

MUCH OF IT TIED TO DEMANDS ABOUT GOVERNANCE OR COMPLIANCE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS IS GOING TO BE DOWN THE LINE?

>> THIS IDEA OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OF SUSPENDING THAT KIND OF FUNDING FOR THAT KIND OF RESEARCH IS FOOLHARDY BUT IT'S ALSO STRIKING THE BASIC VALUES THAT WE HAVE COMMITTED OURSELVES TO.

IT MAY SOUND IDEALISTIC BUT THE FIRST AMENDMENT, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE COUNTRY HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THE VALUE OF KNOWLEDGE AND THE PRESERVATION OF DEMOCRACY, MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO BE A DEMOCRACY , THAT THESE ARE WHAT THE COUNTRY IS COMMITTED TO.

AND THE THINGS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT , MICHEL, OF FUNDAMENTAL RESEARCH IN THESE AREAS AND BEYOND, IN THE LIBERAL ARTS AS WELL, THAT IS THREATENED BY THIS KIND OF USE OF THE LOVER OF FUNDING TO ACCOMPLISH INTRUSIONS INTO PURE ACADEMIC DECISION-MAKING.

FACULTY, STUDENTS, POLICIES OF THE UNIVERSITIES.

>> THE FACT IS ON THE ONE HAND EVEN IF YOU ACCEPT WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE, WHICH IS AT THE CAMPUS CLIMATE IS JUST A PRETEXT FOR AUTHORITARIAN IMPULSE, THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL AND WHO CERTAINLY HAVE FELT, PARTICULARLY LET'S JUST SAY IN THE WAKE OF THE GAZA WAR, THERE ARE STUDENTS WHO ARE JUST UNDER ATTACK ON SOME OF THESE CAMPUSES AND THEY HAVE FELT SILENCED AND SOME OF THEM HAVE FELT HARASSED AND DEEPLY UNWELL, AND I JUST WONDER HOW YOU SORT OF SQUARE THOSE TWO READ , I DON'T WANT TO CALL IT REALITIES BUT PHENOMENON.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THOSE THINGS?

>> OVER THE PAST YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF, WE FACED AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT SITUATION ON AMERICAN CAMPUSES BUT ALSO IN SOCIETY GENERALLY IN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND DEAL WITH QUESTIONS OF POLICY AND PRINCIPLE WITH THE ISRAELI PALESTINIAN HAMAS ISSUES BUT ALSO WITH RACE IN AMERICA, WITH ABORTION IN AMERICA .

THESE ARE INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT ISSUES FOR PEOPLE TO ADDRESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS UNFORTUNATELY THERE ARE EXCESSES.

AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CLEAR IF YOU ARE IN AN INSTITUTION OR IF YOU RUN AN INSTITUTION THAT ACCESSES ARE UNACCEPTABLE AND WILL BE TREATED AS SUCH.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND , YOU HAVE TO HAVE VERY CLEAR IDEAS.

THE FIRST AMENDMENT OVER THE PAST CENTURY, AGAIN HAS SAID, THE COURT HAS HELD, OVER MANY DECISIONS CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS ALIKE, THAT HATE SPEECH, ANTI-SEMITIC, RACIST SPEECH, SEXIST AND MISOGYNISTIC SPEECH WILL BE PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT JUST LIKE ANY OTHER.

THAT'S A VERY SIGNIFICANT CHOICE AND A VERY DIFFICULT ONE AND SOMETHING I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT OVER THE COURSE OF MY CAREER.

PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES ARE BOUND BY THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE BOUND BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES HAVE MADE A CHOICE.

THEY WILL ALSO BE BOUND BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS WHEN YOU'RE HAVING DEBATES ABOUT PUBLIC ISSUES ON CAMPUSES AND YOU ARE COMMITTED TO A FIRST AMENDMENT TO ROACH, YOU MAY END UP WITH BAD SPEECH BEING SPOKEN WHICH IS HORRIBLE FOR MANY PEOPLE TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH AND HORRIBLE FOR THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE, BUT YOU CANNOT SAY THAT THAT IS, ITSELF SOMETHING THE UNIVERSITIES HAVE FAILED TO CORRECT FOR WHEN IN FACT THE COMMITMENT HAS BEEN IN SOCIETY AND NOW ON CAMPUSES, TO LIVE BY FIRST AMENDMENT FOR ALL KINDS OF REASONS.

>> IN YOUR ESSAY LAST ME FOR THE ATLANTIC YOU WROTE THAT STRATEGIES OF APPEASEMENT NEVER WORK OUT.

AT SOME POINT WHEN SANITY RETURNS YOU WILL BE SEEN AS HAVING SACRIFICED YOUR PRINCIPLES WHEN UNDER PRESSURE AND THAT WILL UNDERMINE YOUR CASE FOREVER.

SO YOU DRAW A CONTRAST BETWEEN YOU AND THERE UNIVERSITIES THAT NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENTS WHICH CHOSE TO RESIST BLOCKING WHAT A JUDGE CALLED AN ARBITRARY AND CAPRICIOUS FUNDING SUSPENSION.

A STONE WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN HAS HARVARD GOTTEN IT RIGHT SO FAR AND IS THAT A PATH THAT OTHERS SHOULD FOLLOW?

>> UNIVERSITIES LIKE OTHER INSTITUTIONS WERE SURPRISED AND SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF INTRUSION AND DEMANDS AND THREATS THAT THEY FACED .

COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE IN MY VIEW THAT UNIVERSITIES WOULD RESPOND IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO ORGANIZE COLLECTIVE ACTION.

MYSELF, I THINK THE HARVARD APPROACH WAS THE RIGHT ONE ESPECIALLY FOR HARVARD BECAUSE THE LEVEL OF INTRUSION WAS MUCH MORE THAN FOR OTHER UNIVERSITIES, I BELIEVE, SO FAR.

SO I DO THINK , AND THE POINT OF THIS BOOK IS TO TRY TO SAY THAT UNIVERSITIES NEED TO BE MUCH CLEARER ABOUT WHAT THEIR IDENTITY IS IN SOCIETY.

THEIR ROLE AND RESPONSIBILITIES.

THEY NEED TO MAKE THAT CLAIM AND THEY NEED TO DO IT IN VARIOUS WAYS BUT THROUGH THE COURTS AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND THE LAW IS A PRIMARY WAY.

SO I THINK THAT STANDING UP AND ARTICULATING YOUR VALUES AND MAKING YOUR DEFENSE IS THE RIGHT APPROACH.

>> I RECOGNIZES HAVE TO BE AN AWKWARD QUESTION FOR YOU AS THE FORMER LEADER OF THIS INSTITUTION BUT YOU DO REALIZE FOR MANY PEOPLE COLUMBIA IS THE POSTER CHILD FOR APPEASEMENT?

>> I'VE MADE A DELIBERATE CHOICE NOT TO CRITICIZE , DIRECTLY CRITICIZE MY INSTITUTION AND THE ONE THAT I LEAD FOR 21 YEARS.

ONE HAS TO BE AS I SAID, VERY SYMPATHETIC WITH INSTITUTIONS OF STRUGGLING WITH HOW TO DEAL WITH THE ATTACKS THEY HAVE ENDURED.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD DO RIGHT NOW?

PEOPLE WHO SHARE THE PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU SHARE AND THE DEEP CONCERN THAT YOU HAVE ARTICULATED?

AND PEOPLE WHO ALSO SHARE THE LOVE OF KNOWLEDGE AND FREE THOUGHT THAT YOU HAVE ARTICULATED?

>> I THINK WE NEED TO SETTLE ON THE KEY, THE CORE IDENTITY OF WHAT UNIVERSITIES ARE.

IT'S JUST CRITICAL TO ME THAT WE CAN'T FALL FOR THIS IDEA THAT UNIVERSITIES ARE JUST BUSINESSES OR THAT THEY ARE ONLY FOR ELITES , ALL OF THESE STANDARD CRITICISMS.

IT REALLY IS IMPORTANT THAT UNIVERSITIES SAY WHO THEY ARE AND SAY THAT WITH CONVICTION.

I THINK IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT THAT UNIVERSITIES FIND WAYS TO ACT TOGETHER.

THIS KIND OF COLLECTIVE ACTION IS CRITICAL BUT ALSO HAS TO BE A CROSS SECTORS SO IT HAS TO BE WITH PRESS.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO AGREE, I THINK THAT THE PRESS HAS ALSO FAILED TO DEVELOP A COLLECTIVE KIND OF RESPONSE TO THE VARIOUS INTRUSIONS , SAME WITH LAW FIRMS, SAME WITH BUSINESSES.

ANYBODY WHO IS A SCHOLAR OF DEMOCRACY AND HOW YOU PRESERVE IT IN THE FACE OF ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE DEMOCRACY WILL SAY THAT IT'S ONLY WHEN SOCIETY BROADLY STANDS UP AND RESISTS , THAT YOU CAN HAVE AN EFFECTIVE RESISTANT TO A GOVERNMENT THAT IS INTENT ON ACHIEVING ITS GOAL OF UNDERMINING ANY KIND OF OPPOSITION.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT REQUIRES DAILY WORK , THE WORK OF MANY, MANY PEOPLE.

YOU NEVER KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT'S GOING TO UNFOLD BUT THAT HAS TO HAPPEN.

>> LEE BOLLINGER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU MICHEL.