Peggy Sagers: Fashion editor G. Bruce Boyer stated "it's both delusional and stupid to think that clothes don't really matter and we should all wear whatever we want."

Most people don't take clothing seriously enough, but whether we should or not, clothes speak a language, and we make decisions based on people's appearances.

Today on "Fit 2 Stitch," we talk suits and the language that they speak.

Annette Becker is back with us again to share more about the Texas Fashion Collection and her insights on the history of suits.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ male announcer: "Fit 2 Stitch" is made possible by Kai Scissors.

♪♪♪ Reliable Corporation.

♪♪♪ Plano Sewing Center.

♪♪♪ Elliott Berman Textiles.

♪♪♪ Bennos Buttons.

♪♪♪ And Clutch Nails.

♪♪♪ Peggy: Over the years, suits have evolved dramatically from being something that was worn solely, clearly by men, to where women do this on an everyday basis.

So, I wanna bring Annette Becker onto the show.

She's the curator of the University of North Texas Texas Fashion Collection, and this is really where we're gonna get a great history of suits.

Annette Becker: Absolutely.

Peggy: There's so much more to it than before I was born.

Is that a fair statement?

They're older than I am.

Is that good?

Annette: Absolutely, absolutely, unless you were born in the 17th century, which I don't think is the case.

Peggy: No, but looking good for that age, huh?

So, talk to us about where did they start.

And they were originally just solely men.

Annette: Absolutely.

So, suits were really developed in the 17th century as a way of sort of formalizing and setting one way for men to dress.

And at the Texas Fashion Collection, we have a really lovely set of examples from the 18th century.

So, we have one here for us to look at today.

Peggy: From the 18th century?

Annette: Yes, so this is, like-- it comes from between the 1770s and 1780s, based on the cut of this.

So, if you think about the American Revolution, the French Revolution, this is an example of clothing that would have been worn by the most elite men in that time period.

Peggy: The seam work is really interesting.

You can see that centerback seam, how much fit there is.

That would make somebody stand up straight for sure because you couldn't really have a choice.

It's amazing.

Annette: It is really interesting thinking about how much the construction of this piece would dictate how someone would stand in it, what the popular postures were in that time period, with the clothing really controlling men's bodies, which is an idea we usually associate with women and clothing.

We think about corsets controlling bodies, but, historically, menswear did that too.

Peggy: So, the clothing controlled the body?

Annette: Absolutely.

Peggy: So, it gave you resistance so that you would stand up straighter?

Interesting.

Annette: Absolutely, so if we look at the construction of this.

You pointed out the seams here.

So, we'll notice that this armscye goes back really far, which would kind of push your shoulders back, and then we'll notice this has a really tall collar, so you can imagine that would make you hold your head up tall.

Peggy: Well, you'd have to, huh?

Makes me wanna stand up already, just listening, but-- Annette: Exactly, exactly.

And we even have a curved sleeve here, which you can especially appreciate that curve if you follow the stripes in the silk velvet.

So, if you imagine putting all of those postures together that this suit requires, you might think back to portraiture from this time period.

Think of the really elite men that were wearing this clothing and then realizing that the people who constructed this are the ones that are making them stand that way.

Peggy: Oh my gosh.

Maybe it's payback too 'cause-- so this is a cotton-- a velvet silk, you mentioned, a velvet silk.

Annette: Mm-hm.

Peggy: It's just stunning.

And the embroidery is very floral, but that was typical in men's suiting?

Annette: Yeah, so in this time period it was typical for men to sort of be the peacocks of fashion, since they were often the ones representing their family and the power and authority that their family had.

So, all of this really lovely embroidery really reflects someone showing patronage to the embroiderers who created something like this.

All these beautiful colors showed that you had the dough to be able to afford all of the natural dyes that would create those really deep pinks, the really luscious greens that we see here.

So, if we look at the centerfront, you can especially appreciate all of the hand stitching that was done to create this piece.

Peggy: So, take me back, you don't have embroidery machines.

Annette: Correct.

Peggy: This is 1700s.

Annette: Correct.

Peggy: I'm just trying to really wrap my head around this.

There's no electricity for embroidery machines, so it's all done by hand.

Everything's done by hand.

Annette: All created by hand.

So, there likely would have been a pattern to basically use as a template to make this repeat precisely.

There were likely a few artisans who worked on embroidering these and had to make them look exactly the same, and even getting the color so consistent was important because all of the thread at this time was dyed with natural materials because synthetic dyes weren't invented for another 70 years.

Peggy: Oh my goodness gracious.

Well, I'm also noticing in the back there's princess seams.

I mean, or what-- they're called princess seams now, but did princess seams even-- did they even know them as princess seams or-- 'cause you're gonna see, coming in here-- Annette: Absolutely, so this construction, again, is really manipulating people's bodies.

Today, especially in the fronts of garments, we know this as a princess seam, but it wasn't referred to that until a hundred years later.

That term was popularized by Charles Frederick Worth.

But even before that point, this sort of V-shaped construction was popular in men and women's clothing.

Peggy: Oh my goodness.

A silk velvet.

Annette: Yeah, this piece is a really elite garment.

There were actually laws during this time period that required people of a certain status to dress like this to be able to support all the artisans who were the tailors who were creating the fabric who were doing the embroidery.

So, if you were of a certain class, you had to dress like this to maintain that status.

Peggy: Just almost maybe like a suit to an interview today?

You have to wear a suit.

That's just kind of what you do.

It is just incredible, so this is the beginning, 1700s, this is what they looked like, and there was really no distinction.

I mean, well, I know women weren't wearing it, but I'm surprised at how soft and floral they are, as masculine as the men were, especially, that the embroidery is so much a part of it.

Annette: I think our ideas that associate certain things with masculinity and femininity have really changed over time.

So, for example, in this time period, if a woman were wearing a suit that would be considered incredibly inappropriate.

That wasn't a gender performance that people accepted in that time period.

So, it's interesting being able to look at fashion history and think about the norms that have existed in the past.

So, maybe we can challenge some of the norms we have today.

Peggy: I love that.

I love that.

All right, so then the suit went to-- Annette: Yes, we have a women's suit, which is exciting.

Peggy: Wow, which was-- when was that happening?

Annette: So, we might think to riding habits that were worn in the 19th century.

We might think to walking suits that were worn in the beginning of the 20th century.

Peggy: Sure, the riding jacket.

Annette: Exactly, and then, really, once we get into the 1930s and '40s, we see suits becoming more popular for women.

This is a really beautiful example by Adrian who started his career in MGM Studios creating suits and other costumes for Hollywood actresses.

So, if we can picture Joan Crawford or Katharine Hepburn with a really strong shoulder and a really narrow silhouette for a suit, that sort of silhouette was popularized by Adrian.

Peggy: So, that was the first mindset, was to keep the strong shoulders but to narrow the silhouette in the female, whereas the male was straight, the female came in, 'cause this is beautifully done with a detail and of just a simple bow at the waist.

And this has been classic, repeated-- designers, Max Mara, bow at the waist.

I mean, kind of famous, almost, for that bow at the waist.

But the detail in this looks so much more feminine, even in the '70s, to me.

A lot of the jackets in the 1970s were much more male than, to me, what this is.

This is really beautiful.

Annette: It is really interesting that Adrian, I think, was borrowing some cues from menswear, but really thinking a lot about the construction of dresses, of more feminine-coated garments, when he created something like this.

Peggy: And the armhole looks fairly large.

Annette: Yeah, I'm really glad you pointed that out.

This was created during World War II, when women had a very active role in public society, especially as men were away at war, women took on more roles in the public, in the workplace.

So, suits were a way to sort of signal that women were coming up, professionally.

So, being able to move around in a suit was important.

The women who were dressed like this were not decorative.

They were functional in their day-to-day lives.

Peggy: And they had to be, definitely, in the beginning.

I think we almost went to a point where it was not-- it was just totally decorative and you couldn't function.

You kind of had to take your jacket off to function, but it's nice.

And this is not a two-piece.

This is a one-piece sleeve.

Annette: It is a one-piece sleeve, it is.

Peggy: Which is interesting that it's done that way.

Annette: Yeah, the construction on this piece is really informed by World War II restrictions on fashion manufacturing, so there are really economies made in the width of the skirt and some of the patternmaking.

I love that you mentioned the bow because if we pull this open, you'll notice that these are just bias bands that have been tacked on to the front.

Peggy: Oh, they're not even-- I thought they kind of gathered the suit in, but they don't.

They're just there for decorative.

Annette: Exactly, so this was a way to save the fabric of creating a tie that would go all the way around, but still gives the fashionable effect of having that tie there.

Peggy: It's amazing.

I can't imagine doing the sewing.

How difficult that must be on that.

I mean, they're just so exact from one side to another, as I stare it down.

Annette: Yeah, that's really, I think, a humble brag for this piece because Adrian was really restricted on how much fabric he could use, how wide a garment could be.

That--those were through regulations that the federal government put on designers and manufacturers, but what they didn't limit is the fabric manipulation, the patternmaking, so as long as a suit was narrow, you could do whatever you wanted, and Adrian really innovated with his patternmaking here.

Peggy: So, this would really be-- if he was restricted with how much yardage, these would really fall into those restrictions.

It would help him fall into those restrictions?

Annette: Exactly.

Peggy: That's incredible.

It's amazing knowing the facts as to-- really made or changed the design, how much it influenced the designers, what they could and couldn't do.

It's beautiful.

Annette: Yeah, and I think often, you know, creators today sometimes have limitations on how much fabric they have, what fabric is available, and recognizing someone who is internationally famous, like Adrian, had to play into those restrictions, I think can help us as creative people feel a little bit better about the creative constraints that we have for our own projects.

Peggy: No kidding.

I mean, when you really recognize that when you have a limit, it can be a good thing because you then-- your creativity overcomes those limits.

Is that fair?

Annette: I think that's the name of the game.

Peggy: Lesson for the day, I like that, I really like that.

Let's go look at this.

Annette: Yeah, I'll admit this is by one of my very favorite designers represented at the Texas Fashion Collection.

Peggy: So, that's why it's here?

Annette: It is.

Peggy: Okay, we can admit to that 'cause I've got a favorite coming up.

Annette: So, this piece was created by Bonnie Cashin, who made a lot of sportswear in the US in the 1940s, '50s, and '60s.

A lot of the ways that we dress today are informed by things that Bonnie Cashin innovated during her career.

Peggy: I'm not that familiar with her or what she did.

Annette: So, some of the things that we can thank Bonnie Cashin for as sort of her design legacy are that she brought the concept of layering to Euro-American dress.

So, today, if people wear maybe a shirt with a cardigan over it or maybe they wear, you know, like, a blouse with a blazer, that sort of idea came from Bonnie Cashin in the late 1940s.

Peggy: Layering.

Annette: Exactly, and one of my favorite details that I think really has resonated through the fashion industry is Bonnie Cashin was really known for her innovative closures.

So, here we'll see-- we'll slide this open-- and you can see this is really stiff.

So, this is created out of metal that's covered in suede.

Bonnie Cashin was really known for taking closures from other industrial design applications and bringing those to the world of fashion.

So, today, if someone might have, for example, a COACH handbag that has sort of, like, a turn lock, Bonnie Cashin designed for COACH and brought that to fashion design from-- Peggy: Fascinating.

Annette: Yeah, they were originally on convertible tops, so if you removed a convertible top, it had those closures.

Peggy: I do remember that.

So, these were actually more purse closures that she brought onto apparel.

Annette: Exactly.

Peggy: She was really the first one to do that.

Annette: Absolutely, yeah, so she was really thinking outside of the world of fashion design to inspire her designs, and I really think that's where a lot of design innovation comes from, is not being limited by, you know, an industry or by expectations of what materials you can use.

Peggy: Easier said than done.

Annette: That is true.

Peggy: I mean, you know, because there's times when I go shop for closures, and if I'm wandering the streets of New York, I'll go into the handbag section because there's just so many beautiful closures there, but to actually put them on our garments, to know that it's been done by famous designers, gives us a little bit of validity.

Is that a fair statement?

Annette: I think that's absolutely true.

Peggy: It means if they can do it, we can too.

Annette: Exactly, Bonnie Cashin is telling us to go to the hardware store and shop around.

Peggy: Yeah, Home Depot, here we come, right?

And you can see that this is simply covered by even glue and whatever else it took to make it happen.

Annette: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Peggy: I just think that's incredible.

Annette: Yeah, American ingenuity.

Peggy: So, why does this resonate to you?

Her clothing in general is one of your favorites.

What is it about it, in general?

Annette: I really appreciate how modern her designs are.

So, she chose not to have a lot of frills and bows and extras that weren't necessary in her design.

And I think, especially since today there are a lot of conversations about low-waste design and sustainability, you know, even if we look at this piece, you can see that the sleeve is cut as one piece with the bodice.

Peggy: It's a kimono.

Annette: Exactly, and you can see that this fabric is gathered here in this Empire waistline.

So, in theory, if someone wanted to alter this, they could.

If someone wanted to reuse this fabric, they could because it hasn't been cut in to create so many small pattern pieces.

Peggy: So, do you think that one of the reasons you like it is simply because it was reminiscent of being ecological and being all of those things?

Annette: I think so, and I think it's really practical for people to wear too.

You know, this is clothing that was made for modern women who are really active, and culturally and societally engaged, and I think her clothing signals that, and a few Cashin pieces that I have in my own wardrobe make me feel connected to that longer legacy of empowered women.

Peggy: That's really interesting, because I wonder sometimes what makes us love what they do and what they are and, you know, sometimes it's not a lot.

It's just a little bit of knowledge or something that pulls us in.

Let's look at this next one 'cause this is really a fun one.

Annette: Yeah, talk about designers and designs that people love.

Patrick Kelly, I think, is a classic for people who really dig into fashion history.

His career was really big in the 1980s and was sadly cut short because he contracted AIDS and passed away, but during his meteoric rise from being an American designer to then working in Paris, he introduced a lot of fun and whimsy to his designs that was inspired by his background, growing up in a family of sharecroppers in the American South, so-- Peggy: Fascinating how he would see suits, and especially for women, that he would-- that's interesting.

Annette: So, there's a long history of African American people being really tied to the American South with a lot of oppression, but then also finding some freedom and brightness in that-- those really dark times for Black Americans, I think is important.

One way we can see that in this suit is that Patrick Kelly often brings in elements of iconography that were used to oppress Black people.

So, all of these dice that we can see as a motif throughout the suit, to us, might read as something fun and playful.

This design was named in a way that referred to Las Vegas, so we're thinking about the fun and flash of a city full of tourists and people gambling, but, historically, dice have been associated with sort of, like, lower-status gambling, because it's a game of chance.

It's a game of luck.

It's something that you can just, you know, pick up on the street, on the sidewalk.

You don't have to go to a glittering casino--exactly.

So, Patrick Kelly is harnessing this symbol that could oppress to make it into something beautiful and joyful that could make us smile and laugh.

Peggy: Interesting, I mean, the pockets and the angles in the biases, and they're all different colors and getting the color dyes to all match, you know, I would have a hundred questions on how he did that, and then, of course, to mirror the blouse, and it's beautiful, but you can really see that the suits almost reflected the timeframe of what we were in, from the embroidery to-- I love this.

This is pretty cool.

Annette: Yeah, it's such a fun piece.

Peggy: I wonder if he was a gambler.

Annette: Who knows?

Peggy: This is my favorite.

This is my favorite.

So, I mean, I just have this real affinity for Armani.

I think to myself, "Why?"

And I think it's simply because he just seems to understand women, and he makes them suits that are appropriate and yet just beautiful, and they're not masculine, so much as I see just the beauty in the suit-- not even in a detail, but just in overall.

So, what year is this from?

Annette: So, this piece by Giorgio Armani is from the late 1980s, which is when most of the pieces in our collection by him are from.

We might be able to pick up cues cues from the 1980's styling, but I also think there's a sort of timeless quality to the-- Peggy: I do too.

Annette: They're just beautiful fabrics that he used that I think really elevate the design.

Peggy: And this asymmetric line is a very common one for him.

He's used it quite a bit, one button up here, you know.

Annette: This construction is so clever.

So, if we open this up, you'll be able to see that this is anchored with some covered snaps, and then this is actually echoed with a button over on the other side to keep everything hanging straight.

Peggy: So, can that be worn with that snap closed and then the rest of it open?

Annette: I could imagine if you wore a blouse under this, you could likely do that.

And this asymmetrical design is echoed on the back of this vest too.

Peggy: Just basically leave that down.

Can we do that?

I--actually, the reason I say that is I actually bought a shirt years ago.

I shouldn't say I bought it.

I copied it, but I copied a shirt that was-- it's a shirt.

It's just a regular shirt, but it was almost this exact same pattern from, like, the '90s, where there was buttons on the outside, and then it just was meant to-- I mean, it was pressed open.

It was finished to be open.

So, I guess that's where I even asked.

Gee, this is like so similar to a blouse I have, and I should donate that blouse so that you guys can put that in your more updated years.

Annette: I would love that.

Yeah, at the Texas Fashion Collection, we have a lot of historic pieces, but we always rely on people to donate more contemporary ones fashion fashion history is constantly being made.

Peggy: Can we see the back of this?

Is it able to turn around?

Annette: Yeah, sure, absolutely.

Peggy: So, now, when he did the suit, and you're talking about the skirt as well as the top, are there details about a skirted suit that changed very much?

Did that skirt have a tendency to just stay straight?

I noticed that they change a little bit with the flare, but they're all pretty much like-- almost like a pencil skirt.

Annette: So, many of the pieces in our collection do have pencil skirts with them, but proportions of suits constantly change.

So, for example-- Peggy: Proportions of top to bottom, per se?

Annette: Exactly, so if we think maybe to the typical silhouette of the 1950s, we tend to think of a really emphasized, narrow waistline.

So, many of our skirt suits from that time period are sort of cropped for the jackets, and then they have a really nipped-in waist and then a gathered skirt.

So, there's a different volume.

It's a way of sort of balancing a silhouette, is making sure that you're thinking about each component together.

Peggy: Interesting.

I wonder if that was attributed to anything that was going on in history or it was just-- because anytime you're using gathered skirts, you've kind of violated the, you know, be conservative on the amount of yardage you're using 'cause now we're gonna go twice as much as what we really need to pull into those gathers.

Annette: Yeah, especially if you think about Christian Dior starting his fashion house in 1947.

Those designs were called The New Look, which was in direct contrast to things that Adrian was doing.

So, that was all about restraint, austerity, wartime measures.

Christian Dior, following World War II, just threw all of that out and he used yards and yards and yards of the most beautiful fabric, and some people saw that as a release from the weight of the war, that it was celebratory clothing, but some people also saw that as being practically amoral because you were being almost wasteful.

Peggy: We do that today.

We have these two splits where somebody thinks this, and you can think completely opposite, and yet there's no right and wrong.

You can just understand both sides.

But fashion even followed that.

I just find it--I love going through these clothes.

I mean, just the idea that you just can bring us the history because I think as we go and create for ourselves, we really have to think about what do we want.

They are such an expression of ourselves, our history, our background.

You know, this is just completely beautiful, to leave this open.

Did the zipper closures change?

Are they typically in the back?

Annette: So, it really varies for the suits that we have, really, based on the design constraints.

So many of our pieces have side zippers and back zippers.

Almost none of our skirt suits have zippers in the front though.

Peggy: And even today, a little while ago, I saw a skirt on sale, like, clearance, clearance, clearance, and it's 'cause zipper's in the front, but I just don't think it's an acceptable place to put a zipper, even after all these years.

I'm not even sure why, but that side or that back seems to be where it's at.

Annette: Maybe that'll be the next innovation.

Peggy: I don't think it worked.

It was on the clearance, like, below clearance, clearance.

Let's come back for this for just a minute.

I wanted to ask you something about this.

So, this trim here is all suede.

Annette: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Peggy: And I notice that it's sewn on after the fact.

So, would this, in the timeframe when this was made, would this have been done by hand?

Annette: So, there is a good chance that this sort of, like, piping or trim would have been accomplished by hand.

Bonnie Cashin was known for using leathers in a really innovative way, so this was almost a hallmark of her design.

Peggy: Probably from that COACH background too, with leathers being used in-- Annette: Exactly, yeah, and you can imagine with how loosely woven this really beautiful textured fabric is, that you would almost need some sort of binding to contain this-- the edges of this so it wouldn't just unravel.

Peggy: Sure, sure, because there's no-- I mean, I noticed the lining is here, but there's no lining down here.

So, it's just really lined to a point and then left.

So, all of this is just both the fabric looking good on both sides, and that's it.

Annette: Mm-hm, mm-hm.

Peggy: And I always wonder about the choices they make, about how they line and what they line and why they line, and then they kind of let it go.

The rest of it, the sleeves aren't lined.

Annette: Mm-hm, yeah, I think this would probably make it easier for someone to slide this on, although some Bonnie Cashin pieces we have are lined in a jersey knit, and I just think no one would be able to get their arms through those long sleeves.

Peggy: Sure, 'cause it'd just stick.

Annette: Exactly, exactly.

Peggy: And then, as a curator, do you see the times where the fabrics are still really, really good, but it's the linings that are taking the wear?

Annette: Something that's really interesting is at the point that people stopped wearing as many undergarments and slips, lining started, like, started being added to clothing.

So, historically, it's really that those undergarments are doing that work of protecting the clothing, and then these linings are added once people removed those undergarments from their wardrobe, and I think now we have different social norms for how people dress themselves.

So, some things have linings.

Some things don't.

You know, not everyone is wearing a slip under every garment.

Peggy: I love it.

Thank you so much.

I just love talking about all this stuff and seeing the clothes.

Thank you.

Annette: Thank you.

It's been a delight.

Peggy: Karl Lagerfeld was a fashion industry icon and one of the most acclaimed designers in the 20th century, spending many of his years thriving as artistic director for Fendi and Chanel.

The history and garments of Karl Lagerfeld here next time on "Fit 2 Stitch."

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ announcer: "Fit 2 Stitch" is made possible by Kai Scissors.

♪♪♪ Reliable Corporation.

♪♪♪ Plano Sewing Center.

♪♪♪ Elliott Berman Textiles.

♪♪♪ Bennos Buttons.

♪♪♪ And Clutch Nails.

♪♪♪ announcer: To order a four-DVD set of "Fit 2 Stitch," series 12, please visit our website at fit2stitch.com.