>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY", HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE ARE GOING TO BRING THEM BACK TO THE STONE AGES, WHERE THEY BELONG.

>> USING VIETNAM ERA LANGUAGE THREATENING WAR CRIMES AGAINST IRAN, ATTACKING ALLIES AND STILL, NO EXIT STRATEGY.

OIL PRICES --PRICES SPIKE AGAIN.

RETIRED GENERAL JON KIRBY JOINED ME.

THEN TEHRAN, PLEDGES AN EYE FOR AN EYE, SO IS THERE ANY SIGN OF THE TALKS TRUMP SAID WERE HAPPENING, I ASKED FORMER ADVISOR AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT, PLUS >> THERE'S BEEN NO CHANGE AND IN FACT, HE IS SEEKING SOMEONE IN THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP THAT HE CAN DO A DEAL.

>> AS ANOTHER SENIOR IRANIAN DIPLOMAT IS TARGETED FOR ASSASSINATION, WALTER ISAACSON ASKS EDWARD WONG, WHO COVERS DIPLOMACY FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, WHAT IS NEXT.

"AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON & JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND TWO CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

AMERICAN AND ISRAELI BOMBS WILL CONTINUE POUNDING IRAN.

HERE'S PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HE SOUGHT TO REASSURE AMERICANS THAT HE DOES IN FACT, HAVE A PLAN.

>> WE ARE GOING TO FINISH THE JOB AND WE ARE GOING TO FINISH IT VERY FAST.

WE ARE GETTING CLOSE.

EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT AND TONIGHT I'M PLEASED TO SAY THAT THESE CORE STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES ARE NEARING COMPLETION.

WE ARE GOING TO HIT THEM EXTREMELY HARD OVER THE NEXT 2 TO 3 WEEKS.

WE ARE GOING TO BRING THEM BACK TO THE STONE AGES, WHERE THEY BELONG.

>> SO THERE'S NO DEFINITION OF FINISH THE JOB AND THE STONE AGE COMMENTS ARE BLOWING UP IN TRUMP'S FACE.

IRANIANS ARE ASKED --ANGRY ABOUT THE VERBAL ASSAULT ON THEIR 2500-YEAR-OLD CIVILIZATION.

THE DIASPORA, SHIFTING ITS SUPPORT FOR THE WAR, NOT TO MENTION FROM'S FIRST NATIONAL ADDRESS SHARED ABSOLUTELY NO LIFE ON HOW THIS WAR ENDS, OIL TRADERS ARE CLEARLY HOPING FOR A PLAN FOR REOPENING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, THEY DIDN'T GET ONE.

AS FOR TRUMP WAILING ON HIS ALLIES, HERE'S HOW THAT LANDED WITH THE FRENCH PRESIDENT, EMMANUEL MACARONI.

>> I THINK WE ALL NEED STABILITY, CALM, A RETURN TO PEACE AND THIS IS NOT A SHOW, WE ARE TALKING PEACE OF WAR, TALKING ABOUT THE LIVES OF MEN AND WOMEN.

THE SITUATION OF OUR COUNTRIES, THE RISKS FOR OUR COUNTRIES AND OUR ECONOMIC SITUATION.

WHETHER IT'S THE U.S., EUROPEANS OR ASIANS, EVERYONE IS PAYING THE CONSEQUENCES SO WE HAVE TO BE SERIOUS.

>> SO, CAN TRUMP FIND A SERIOUS OFFRAMP?

WHAT EXACTLY ARE THE MILITARY OPTIONS AT THIS STAGE.

JON KIRBY IS A FORMER U. S. NAVY REAR ADMIRAL AND HAS SERVED AS PENTAGON SPOKESMAN AND NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM CHICAGO.

JON KIRBY, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> WHEN YOU LISTEN TO DONALD TRUMP, WERE YOU EXPECTING HIM TO COME UP WITH SOME KIND OF A MORE REFINED PLAN, DELIVERING YOU KNOW, CONCRETE, AND GAME AND ACTUALLY WHAT THE END WOULD LOOK LIKE INSTEAD OF JUST FINISH THE JOB?

>> THAT'S WHAT I WAS HOPING I WOULD HEAR WHEN I HEARD THAT HE WAS GOING TO GIVE A SET OF REMARKS.

MORE THAN A MONTH INTO THIS CONFLICT.

I THOUGHT THAT'S GREAT, YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD TALK TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND TO PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD AND EXPLAIN WHAT WE ARE DOING AND WHY WE ARE DOING IT AND WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE AND REGRETTABLY, WE DIDN'T HEAR THAT IN THE REMARKS.

THERE WAS NOTHING MORE IN THERE, THEN WHAT HE HAS SAID IN HIS SOCIAL MEDIA POSTINGS, REALLY MORE THAN THAT, AND I WAS STUNNED BY TWO THINGS I DIDN'T HEAR, ONE THING WAS I DIDN'T HEAR ANY MENTION OF NATO AND I WAS GRABBED --GLAD FOR THAT AND I SUSPECT THE EUROPEAN CAPITALS WERE GLAD TO HEAR THAT, AND THE OTHER THING I DIDN'T HEAR WAS ANY MENTION AT ALL, OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

AND THAT KIND OF SURPRISED ME BECAUSE IF YOU REMEMBER WHEN THIS WHOLE THING STARTED, YOU KNOW, HIS MESSAGE WAS, WE ARE GOING TO TOPPLE A REGIME AND IT'S UP TO YOU.

THIS IS YOUR MOMENT TO TAKE IT AND TO RUN YOUR OWN COUNTRY BUT NO MENTION AT ALL OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH, AND ANY IDEA OF WHAT POST-CONFLICT GOVERNMENT CAN OR SHOULD LOOK LIKE.

>> I FELT THE SAME THINGS, I WAS FOCUSED ON THE IRANIAN PEOPLE AND WHAT THEY HAVE ACHIEVED, THAT THEY, YOU KNOW PLANNED AND WHAT THEY WANT TO ACHIEVE, SO WHEN HE SAYS WE HAVE TO PUT FINISH THE JOB AND HE USES HONESTLY, VERY OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE ABOUT BOMBING BACK TO STONE AGE, AS YOU KNOW, THAT IS VIETNAM ERA TALK AND THAT DIDN'T END UP SO WELL FOR THE UNITED STATES.

I DON'T KNOW, THE EMOTIONS OF THE DIASPORA AND OTHER IRANIANS IS SHIFTING BECAUSE IT MAY FIRST THOUGHT TRUMP WAS COMING TO SAVE THEM AND NOW THEY ARE NOT.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE U.S.?

WE KNOW IT MEANS FOR THE IRANIAN PEOPLE BUT ESSENTIALLY, NOT WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE UNITED STATES?

>> IT MEANS THAT THIS WAR IS NOT GOING TO END ANYTIME SOON.

NOW, YOU HAVE THE IRANIAN PEOPLE BEHIND YOU, WHEN THE BOMBS FIRST STARTED FALLING AND NOW WE ARE LOSING THAT, NOT ONLY THE DIASPORA BUT CERTAINLY IN ERROR ON PROPER WHICH MEANS THAT THE REGIME WILL GET NEW LIFE AND PERHAPS IMPORT FOR THE PUBLIC THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.

THIS IS A REGIME THEY HATE BUT NOW THEY'RE BEGINNING TO HATE THE UNITED STATES EVEN MORE AND THAT STIFFENS THE SPINE OF THE REGIME, AND MAY GIVE THEM THE RESOLVE TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO REMEMBER HERE, CHRISTIANE, IS DONALD TRUMP AND THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T GET TO DETERMINE ON ITS OWN WIN THIS WAR ENDS, WE CAN CERTAINLY DETERMINE WHEN WE STOP MILITARY OPERATIONS BUT THE ISRAELIS GET A VOTE AND THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO STOP.

AND THE IRANIANS, ABSOLUTELY GET A VOTE ON HOW MUCH MORE FIGHTING THEY ARE WILLING TO DO, AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT BOMBING THEM INTO THE STONE AGE AND YOU MAKE IT MORE ABOUT THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, NOT JUST THE REGIME, THAT MAKES IT MORE LIKELY THEY ARE GOING TO STIFFEN THEIR SPINES AND CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE ISRAELIS, AS YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE A POLICY OF ASSASSINATION, THEY CALL IT DECAPITATION, WHATEVER IT IS AND THEY KNOW WHERE PEOPLE ARE.

SO THE LATEST IS THAT, WHO USED TO BE IN THE FORM ERA, THE FOREIGN MINISTER, AND ALLEGEDLY HAS BEEN ONE OF THE YOU KNOW, SPEAKERS WITH PAKISTAN AND OTHERS WHO PUT THEMSELVES FORWARD TO TRY TO BRING BOTH SIDES AMERICA AND IRAN TOGETHER THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY NEGOTIATIONS COMING ON.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHETHER THERE'S ANYTHING HAPPENING?

THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE.

>> IT'S HARD TO DISCERN.

I AGREE WITH YOU, IT'S DIFFICULT TO SEE WHERE THERE'S ANY REAL DIPLOMATIC PROGRESS HERE.

AND AS YOU WELL KNOW, CHRISTIANE, COMMUNICATING AND DEALING WITH THE GOVERNMENT, THE OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT OF IRAN IS NOT THE SAME AS DEALING WITH THE IRGC, AND THE SUPREME LEADER AND HIS OFFICES.

YOU KNOW, THE ELECTED LEADERSHIP OF IRAN DON'T DETERMINE THE COURSE OF IRAN, CERTAINLY IN DOMESTIC OR FOREIGN AFFAIRS, IN ORDER TO MAKE ANY GROUND, YOU HAVE TO SPEAK WITH SOMEBODY HAS AUTHORITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY AND THAT WILL BE THE IRGC AND THE NEW SUPREME LEADER.

SO SPEAKING TO A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, WHILE THAT SCRATCHES THE OFFICIAL IT'S, I'M AFRAID THAT EVEN IF THOSE NEGOTIATIONS WERE GOING ON, THEY WOULDN'T GET MUCH TRACTION IN TERMS OF ACTUAL RESULTS.

>> IF THERE'S NONE OF THAT AND THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A MILITARY SOLUTION TO ENDING THIS, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT GOALS LOOK LIKE AND WERE ENUNCIATED, THAT SEEM TO HAVE BEEN PUSHED OFF.

LAST NIGHT, I WAS STUNNED BY THE REFERENCE BY PRESIDENT TRUMP TO THE HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM, BASICALLY SAYING, YOU KNOW, THE NUCLEAR DUST IS WHATEVER HE CALLED IT, NUCLEAR DUST AND HE SAID IT'S NOT ACCESSIBLE, AND IF ANYTHING STARTS HAPPENING, THEY WOULD CONTINUE TO, WELL THEY WOULD BOMB AGAIN, WHICH IS AND IS REALLY PROMISING OF SO-CALLED MOWING THE LAWN, AND ENDLESS WAR, HOW DID YOU READ JUST LEAVING THE HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM TO TAKE CARE OF ITSELF?

>> I SAW THAT THE SAME WAY, THAT THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT BY THE PRESIDENT TO PULL BACK A LITTLE BIT FROM THE THREATS OF ACTUALLY GOING AFTER IT WITH GROUND FORCES.

COULD THAT BE A FAINT, AND HE WAS SOWING DISINFORMATION TO MASK HIS INTENTIONS, PERHAPS BUT I TOOK IT WITH HIM WALKING BACK THE IDEA OF PUTTING GROUND FORCES TO GET IT AND REASSERTING THAT IT'S BURIED SO DEEP THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR THE IRANIANS TO RECOVER IT ANYWAY AND THE PRESIDENT IS NOT WRONG.

SHOULD THEY MAKE AN EFFORT TO TRY TO RECOVER THAT MATERIAL, WE WOULD KNOW, WE WOULD HAVE ALL KINDS OF WAYS TO BE ABLE TO SURVEY ALL THAT AND APPRECIATE WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO GET DONE.

HE'S NOT WRONG ON THAT BUT I TOOK IT A LITTLE BIT OF A WALK BACK, AND HE CAME BACK, IF YOU REMEMBER IN THE SPEECH, REALLY, TO THE COURT MILITARY OBJECTIVES, THE SAME OBJECTIVES THAT HEGSETH AND THE JOINT CHAIRMAN G7 PUTTING FORTH.

THOSE ARE MORE LIMITED OBJECTIONS AND THE PRESIDENT WAS TRYING TO DRAW BACK LAST NIGHT.

>> AND ARE THOSE ACHIEVABLE OR HAVE THEY BEEN ACHIEVED AND IF THEY HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED, WHEN IS THE NEXT 2 TO 3 WEEKS NEEDED?

IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT IS HE SAYING, DO YOU THINK, AS A MILITARY PERSON YOURSELF, NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO MAKE SURE THEY FINISH THE JOB, AS THEY KEEP SAYING?

>> IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY FINISH THE JOB.

IF YOUR GOAL IS TO ELIMINATE EVERY OFFENSIVE CAPABILITY, EVERY MISSILE, EVERY DRONE, THAT'S A TALL ORDER AND I DON'T THINK EVEN THE US MILITARY WOULD SAY THAT WAS POSSIBLE.

BUT IF YOUR JOB IS TO DEGRADE THEIR CAPABILITIES SO THEY NO LONGER POSE A THREAT TO OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS, THAT IS AN ACHIEVABLE GOAL AND THE US MILITARY AND ISRAELI MILITARY HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD AT DOING THAT AND THEY'VE HAD IMMENSE SUCCESS, THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT BUT THE GOAL THAT I THINK IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT AND THIS GETS BACK TO YOUR ISSUE ABOUT HEARTS AND MINDS, ELIMINATING IRAN'S ABILITY TO EXPORT TERRORISM.

AS YOU KNOW, THEY WORK THROUGH PROXIES, HEZBOLLAH, AND THESE MILITIAS IN IRAQ AND SYRIA THAT ARE NOT IN IRAN PROPER, THEY STILL HAVE A MEASURE OF INFLUENCE OVER THOSE GROUPS AND ELIMINATING THAT AS A THREAT, THE TERRORISM THREAT IS A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT THING.

SO SOME OF THESE GOALS ARE ACHIEVABLE IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DEGRADATION, NAVAL AND AIR CAPABILITIES BUT THE EXPORTING OF TERRORISM, ELIMINATING THEIR NUCLEAR AMBITIONS, THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO FROM A MILITARY PERSPECTIVE WHICH IS WHY PRESIDENT OBAMA GOT THE IRAN DEAL SECURED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

HE KNEW IN THE TIME THAT DIPLOMA --DIPLOMATIC -- >> YOU USED TO BE IN THE MILITARY, ADMIRAL JON KIRBY, NOW YOU WORK FOR THE CHART -- CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS AND YOU WORKED EXTENSIVELY ON THE IRAN FILE AS WELL BECAUSE THAT WAS A BIG DEAL AT THAT TIME.

GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE NUCLEAR FILE HAS BEEN SUCH A MAJOR ISSUE FOR SO MANY YEARS, THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IS POTENTIALLY LEAVING THE UNITED STATES WORSE OFF THAN HAD IT CONTINUED THE NEGOTIATIONS WHICH THAT MEDIATOR SAID WAS LEADING TO VERY SERIOUS CONCESSIONS ON NUCLEAR BY THE IRANIANS.

>> THAT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER.

I WILL SAY IN THIS WAY.

FIRST OF ALL, IRAN IS CERTAINLY NOT THE THREAT TO THE REGION AND THE WORLD THAT IT USED TO BE, BASED ON ALL THE BOMBING AND THE STRIKES.

THERE MILITARY CAPABILITIES HAVE BEEN SEVERELY DEGRADED AND THAT IS A GOOD THING FOR THE REGION AND THE WORLD.

I ALSO BELIEVE THERE ARE NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES AND THE AMBITIONS HAVE BEEN SEVERELY CURTAILED STARTING WITH THE STRIKES BACK IN JUNE.

NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT BUT YOU CAN'T BOMB AWAY KNOWLEDGE AND YOU CAN'T NECESSARILY BOMB AWAY INTENTION.

AT THE END OF ALL THIS WHEN IT'S ALL OVER, THE REGIME IS STILL LEFT IN POWER, AND IF THAT MATERIAL IS STILL SOMEWHAT ACCESSIBLE, THEN I STILL THINK IT'S GOING TO BE MORE LIKE THE ISRAELI STRATEGY OF HAVING TO MOW THE GRASS.

I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN ELIMINATE THAT CAPABILITY.

I RECOGNIZE, I WORK FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, SO I'M NOT IMPARTIAL, I GET THAT BUT THAT'S WHY THE WISDOM OF THE IRAN DEAL WAS SO IMPORTANT.

YOU WERE TAKING AWAY DIPLOMATICALLY AND THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS.

THIS AMBITION, ALLOWING IRAN TO HAVE A CIVILIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM THAT COULD BE WELL MONITORED AND INSPECTED AND THEY COULDN'T CHEAT.

THAT WAS THE WAY TO DO THIS IN A SUSTAINABLE WAY.

>> THE WORD SUSTAINABLE IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE MOWING THE LAWN IS DIFFERENT, THAT'S THE OPPOSITE OF THAT.

YOU ARE A NAVY PERSON.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU READ FROM TRUMP AND THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ ISSUE.

ESSENTIALLY AFTER DISSING THE ALLY SAID ACTUALLY, IT'LL JUST OPEN BY ITSELF BECAUSE IRAN NEEDS TO SELL OIL.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU AND HOW COULD SOMEBODY FORCE IT OPEN?

WHAT ARE THE RISKS, EVEN IF THEY LANDED YOU KNOW, A GROUND FORCE ON ANY OF THE ISLANDS OR WHATEVER?

>> LOOK, IT'S NOT ABOUT FORCING IT OPEN AND PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE GEOGRAPHY.

YOU CAN'T JUST FORCE IT OPEN.

WHAT YOU CAN DO IS TRY TO SECURE IT AS BEST YOU CAN.

YOU CAN DO THAT THROUGH CONSTANT EYE IN THE SKY INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE OVER IT AND YOU CAN DO THE ESCORTING OF MERCHANT SHIPPING WITH U. S. NAVAL OR OTHER ASSETS WHICH I DID BACK IN 1988 WHEN PRESIDENT REAGAN ORDERED US TO DO THAT.

THAT CAN BE DONE.

CERTAINLY, YOU CAN DEGRADE THE IRANIANS CAPABILITIES TO THREATEN TO THE STRAIGHT, NOT TRUST --WITH MINDS, BUT FORCING IT OPEN AND SUSTAINING IT, IS A TASK THAT CANNOT BE DONE JUST MILITARILY ALONE.

THAT'S WHY I THINK YOU'VE GOT TO WORK WITH ALLIES AND PARTNERS AND YOU'VE GOT TO FIND A DIPLOMATIC WAY FORWARD.

IT'S AN IMMENSE TASK AND IT'S NOT JUST GOING TO, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE PRESIDENT, IT'S NOT GOING TO OPEN NATURALLY.

THE IRANIANS WERE ABLE TO CLOSE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, QUITE FRANKLY, IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF THIS WAR WITHOUT FIRING A SINGLE SHOT, JUST THE FEAR ALONE MAKING SURE THAT SHIPPING COMPANIES ARE NOT WILLING TO GO THROUGH THAT, 20 MILES WIDE.

AND ELIMINATING THE FEAR IS GOING TO REQUIRE AN AWFUL LOT OF RESOURCES AND TIME AND EVEN THEN, CHRISTIANE, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE 100% FULL PROOF.

IT TAKES ONE DRONE OR ONE MIND TO GET THROUGH.

>> THAT GOES TO THE REAL CRISIS, THE ENERGY CRISIS THAT THE WORLD IS IN.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE POSSIBLE OUTCOME, INSIDE IRAN, YOU'VE GOT THE IRANIANS, THEY MAY BE DEGRADED BUT THEY ARE STILL YOU KNOW, USING MUSCLES AND DRONES.

YOU'VE GOT THE GOLF ARAB STATES ANGRY, YOU'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, WHO KNOWS HOW THIS IS GOING TO END, WHAT IS YOUR WORST CASE SCENARIO FOR WHAT HAPPENS INSIDE IRAN AND MIGHT SPELL OUT?

>> MY WORST-CASE SCENARIO, AND I'VE ALREADY ALLUDED TO IT, IS THE ADMINISTRATION, FOR WHATEVER REASON PULLS THE PLUG ON THIS.

WE CAN ALL ARGUE ABOUT THE WISDOM OF LAUNCHING THE STRIKES AND THE TIME THEY WERE DONE BUT NOW THAT WE ARE IN IT, IT'S IMPORTANT THE U. S. MILITARY BE ALLOWED TO FINISH OBLITERATING AND DEGRADING, I SHOULDN'T SAY OBLITERATING, DEGRADING THESE CAPABILITIES.

WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IS PULLING THE PLUG EARLY, LEAVING THE REGIME STILL IN POWER.

IT'S THE STATE --IT STILL THE SAME REGIME.

LEAVING THEM IN POWER TO CONTINUE TO PERSECUTE THEIR OWN POPULATION AND PROPAGATE TERRORISM AND A THREAT TO THE REGION.

THEN WHERE ARE WE?

WE ARE SIMPLY BACK TO MOWING THE GRASS.

I WORRY ABOUT PULLING THE PLUG EARLY AND NOT LETTING THE MILITARY FINISH THIS JOB.

>> AND IN OUR REMAINING MINUTE, HOW DO YOU SEE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE GULF ARAB STATES WHICH ARE AMERICAN ALLIES AND IRAN GOING FORWARD, GIVEN WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING AND ALSO THE RELATIONSHIP OF AMERICA WITH THOSE GULF STATES, WITH THEY KEEP HAVING AMERICAN BASES THERE, DO YOU THINK?

>> ON THIS DEPENDS ON WHAT IS LEFT WHEN IT'S ALL SAID AND DONE AND IF THE REGIME IS LEFT IN POWER.

IF THAT'S THE WAY THAT THIS ENDS, THEN, WE ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO HAVE TO RETHINK OUR FOOTPRINT IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND SO WILL OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS WHO HAVE HOSTED US IN BASES THROUGHOUT THE REGION BECAUSE CLEARLY, EVEN A DEGRADED, GREATLY DIMINISHED IRAN AND THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, THEY HAVE BEEN GREATLY DIMINISHED, THEY CAN STILL LASH OUT AND STRIKE AT CIVILIAN AND MILITARY TARGETS THROUGHOUT THE REGION.

IF THE REGIME IS LEFT IN POWER, THEN, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO COMPLETELY REVIEW OUR FOOTPRINT IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND WHAT THAT SECURITY POSTURE LOOKS LIKE AND PERHAPS EVEN OUR AGREEMENTS WITH OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS IN THE GULF IN TERMS OF WHAT SORT OF FACILITIES THE U. S. OCCUPIES AND AT WHAT SCALE, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY DID BEFORE THEY LAUNCH THE STRIKE WAS DISPERSED AMERICAN MILITARY POWER AROUND THE REGION.

IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO SEE, WHEN THIS IS OVER, DOES THAT STAY IN PLACE, OR DO WE THE AGGREGATE WHERE WE ONCE WERE?

IF THE REGIME IS IN POWER, I DON'T SEE HOW WE DO THAT.

>> THAT IS TRULY RESHAPING THE MIDDLE EAST IN A WAY THAT NEITHER THE UNITED STATES OR ISRAEL INTENDED.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE.

>> IS RON IRAN'S MILITARY SAID THAT THE U. S. IS FACING ULTIMATE SURRENDER WHILE ALSO DENYING THAT IT'S BEEN WEAKENED BY MORE THAN A MONTH OF WAR.

DESPITE TRUMP'S CLAIMS OF DISCUSSION WITH IRAN, THERE SEEMS TO BE NO NEGOTIATIONS, AND WILL THERE BE ANY IRANIAN NEGOTIATIONS LEFT TO TALK AT ALL?

ADVISOR TO THE SUPREME LEADER AND FORMER MINISTER TO, IS THE LATEST TO BE INJURED, THIS ACCORDING TO IRANIAN STATE MEDIA.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

AS YOU ARE WATCHING ALL THIS UNFOLD, LET ME FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY FOR ANY TALKS.

YOU'VE BEEN A DIPLOMAT.

WHAT ARE YOU MAKING, EVEN, WAS TARGETED, HIS WIFE KILLED.

YOU KNOW WHAT ROLE HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN PLAYING IN ANY NEGOTIATIONS GOING FORWARD?

>> WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS DIRECT ROLE WAS, IRAN HAS SAID THAT HE'S BEEN INVOLVED IN THE TALKS.

ULTIMATELY, IRAN'S DIPLOMATIC POSITION WILL BE MANAGED BY A TEAM AROUND THE NEW SUPREME LEADER AND HE IS AN ADVISOR TO THE SUPREME LEADER AND TARGETING HIM, WHO HAS BEEN RETIRED FOR A LONG TIME NOW AND IS NOT AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF IRAN'S RULING GOVERNMENT.

UNLESS IT WAS BY MISTAKE OR JUST THE WANTON KILLING, IT MUST OF HAD TO DO WITH THE ROLE THAT HE HAD IN NEGOTIATIONS.

>> AND WHAT TO YOU DOES THIS SIGNAL BECAUSE WE HEARD, FROM WHAT YOU HEARD FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP LAST NIGHT, DID YOU SEE ANY ROUTE OR ANY OPENING FOR TALKS OR DID YOU THINK IT WAS JUST ESCALATION?

>> I THINK WHAT I TOOK FROM HIS SPEECH WAS THAT HE IS VERY FRUSTRATED AND HE'S CORNERED, 30 DAYS AFTER THE WAR HAS STARTED, HE'S FEELING PRESSURE DOMESTICALLY AND HE FELT THAT HE NEEDS TO EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHY THE UNITED STATES IS WHERE IT IS AND HE HAS ONLY THREE CHOICES BEFORE HIM.

EITHER IT'S TO ESCALATE BY GROUND INVASION OF IRAN WHICH HE DIDN'T REFER TO AT ALL LAST NIGHT WHICH SUGGESTS THAT HE WOULD DO THAT AS WORSENING THE WAR OR HE JUST ABANDONS THE WHOLE WAR AND SAYS I'M DONE, I'M CLAIMING VICTORY, AND WHOEVER WANTS TO OPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, THEY ARE WELCOME TO DO IT.

THE PROBLEM WITH ABANDONING THE WAR AND JUST LEAVING HIS FIRST BOOK, ISRAEL MAY NOT DO SO, SECONDLY, THAT DOES NOT OPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, NOR WILL IT DO YOU RISK THE ENERGY MARKETS IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, WHICH WOULD VIEW THAT THE WAR IS ONGOING AND MAY RESUME AT ANY POINT IN TIME.

IT DOES NOT REDUCE THE PRICE OF OIL OR CALM ECONOMIC NERVES WHICH THEN LEAVES ONLY AVENUE THAT'S OPEN, WHICH IS A CONVERSATION WITH IRAN.

WE KNOW THE PAKISTANIS HAVE BEEN GOING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN VICE PRESIDENT VANCE ON THE ONE HAND AND LEADERSHIP IN IRAN, EACH SIDE HAS PRESENTED TERMS FOR ENDING THE WAR AND WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR AFTERWARDS.

I DON'T THINK THEY ARE CLOSE AT ALL AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SABER RATTLING AND ATTACKING MAJOR SITES IN IRAN AS PUTTING MEAT ON THE BONE IN AN EFFORT TO SEND IRAN BACK TO THE STONE AGE.

HE DOESN'T HAVE MANY OPTIONS HERE.

AND HE NEEDS TO BRING IRAN TO THE TABLE AND SABER RATTLING IS NOT GOING TO DO IT.

AT SOME POINT HE'S GOT TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT NEGOTIATIONS.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE STONE AGE AND IT'S A COMMENT THAT HAS STUCK IN THE CRAW OF A LOT OF IRANIANS BOTH INSIDE AND OUTSIDE.

STRATEGICALLY, WHAT KIND OF EFFECT DO YOU THINK THAT TERMINOLOGY, THAT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE DOES CREATE, WHAT KIND OF EFFECT?

>> WELL IT IS IN EFFECT ON THE PEOPLE, WHETHER THEY ARE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE IRAN.

IT'S A MOMENT OF CLARITY.

THIS IS NOT A WAR AGAINST THE REPUBLIC, NOT A WAR OVER A NUCLEAR ISSUE.

THIS IS A WAR ON THE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE.

ASIDE FROM THE TERMINOLOGY, WHEN YOU BOMB BRIDGES, WHEN YOU BOMB THE OLDEST HEALTHCARE INSTITUTION IN IRAN WHICH PROVIDES VACCINES, ET CETERA, YOU ARE NO LEIDY --NO LONGER FIGHTING THE REPUBLIC, YOU ARE FIGHTING THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

SO THAT MEANS THAT THERE WOULD BE A STRONGER RALLY TO THE FLAG AND ALSO, IT WOULD MAKE THE REPUBLIC MUCH STRONGER IN CONFRONTING THE UNITED STATES.

BUT STRATEGICALLY ALSO, WHAT IS BEING HEARD HERE, IS THAT AMERICA'S GOAL IS TO MAKE IRAN INTO A FAILED STATE.

THIS IS NOT JUST THREATENING THE GOVERNMENT TO COME TO THE TABLE.

WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BASICALLY MENTIONED IS THAT MY GOAL IS TO TURN IRAN INTO LIBYA, INTO SYRIA, AND OTHER FAILED STATES, I WILL BOMB THEIR BRIDGES, THEIR ROADS, THEIR ROADS, POWER INFRASTRUCTURE AND I'M GOING TO BASICALLY MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE COUNTRY TO FUNCTION AND PROVIDE SERVICES TO ITS PEOPLE.

SO, THERE'S NO TWO WAYS THAT IN A MOMENT OF FRUSTRATION, HE IS BASICALLY, HE'S DECIDED THAT HE CANNOT TOPPLE THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, HE CANNOT MAKE IT BREAK, SO HE'S LASHING OUT AGAINST THE COUNTRY ITSELF.

AND THE UNITED STATES CAN PULVERIZE ANY COUNTRY IN FRONT OF IT.

IT HAS THE FIREPOWER TO DO SO BUT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES IN TERMS OF WHAT HE LEAVES BEHIND, IN TERMS OF THE LEGACY THAT IT CREATES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AS A WHOLE, THAT ONE HAS TO ALSO CONSIDER, THIS IS REALLY WANTON VIOLENCE AGAINST THE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE.

>> NOW, THE PRESIDENT, AND I WAS STUNNED TO FIND THIS PIECE OF VIDEO AND AUDIO, WAS HAVING A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION FROM THE WHITE HOUSE WITH DIFFERENT AUDIENCES TO THE NATIONAL ADDRESS, AND HE LET IT SLIP OR JUST INTENDED TO SAY, THAT HE HAD PREDICTED THAT THE WAR WOULD TAKE THREE DAYS.

NOW THAT IS VERY PUTIN-ESQUE.

WE KNOW FOUR YEARS LATER WHERE WE ARE.

WHAT DID YOU TAKE FROM A, TRUMP ADMITTING THAT AND MAKING THAT PREDICTION, AND B, WHAT IT MIGHT SIGNAL, DOES THAT MEAN ENDLESS WAR, SO YOU GET TO WHERE YOU THINK YOU WANT TO BE?

>> WELL, I DO BELIEVE THAT.

I BELIEVE HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE VERY SIMPLE, THAT HE WOULD KILL IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER, SOMEHOW HE WAS THE ONLY OBSTACLE TO IRAN CHANGING COURSE AND THERE WOULD BE A VENEZUELA SCENARIO AFTERWARDS.

A NEW REGIME COMING FORWARD TO SIGN A DEAL WITH HIM.

AND THAT ENTIRE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC WOULD COLLAPSE QUICKLY.

HE DID NOT EXPECT THAT HE WOULD BE IN A WAR 30 DAYS ON.

THAT THE IRANIANS WOULD ACTUALLY OPEN A FRONT ON GLOBAL ENERGY IN THE GULF, COMPLETELY SURPRISED THE UNITED STATES, IN A WAY THAT IT HADN'T ANTICIPATED, AND WOULD CREATE A SITUATION IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES CAN ESCALATE AGAINST IRAN BUT CANNOT PREVENT IRAN FROM ESCALATING AGAINST THE GLOBAL ENERGY MARKETS.

SO, IT MEANS THAT HE HAD NOT PLANNED FOR ANYTHING LONG-TERM, NOW, HE FACES A CONUNDRUM, HE FACES A MOMENT OF TRUTH, EITHER HE GOES DOWN TO VIETNAM PATH, KEEP PUTTING BOOTS ON THE GROUND, ENDING UP IN A MULTITRILLION DOLLAR FOREVER WAR, OR THAT HE HAS TO FIND A WAY TO GET OUT.

AND THAT IS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FOR HIM BECAUSE IRONICALLY, IRAN HAS ENDED UP BEING THE FIRST COUNTRY IN HIS SECOND TERM THAT HAS REALLY STOOD UP TO HIM.

AND IT'S FRUSTRATING, THEY ARE NOT COMING TO KISS THE RING, THEY ARE NOT BEING BROKEN, AND HE'S ESCALATING PRESSURE ON THEM AND THEY ARE STILL THERE.

AND HE BASICALLY, HIS USUAL PLAYBOOK IS NOT WORKING.

THAT'S THE REASON WHY WE ARE SEEING HIM CONSTANTLY TALKING TO HIMSELF, AND ONE MEETING HE SAYS ONE THING AND THEN IN ANOTHER HE SAYS SOMETHING ELSE AND HE LASHES OUT IN ANGER AND LASHES OUT AT THE EUROPEANS TO TRY AND SPREAD THE BLAME.

THIS INDICATES THAT THIS IS A LEADER THAT HAS LOST THE PLOT AND HE'S FINDING HIMSELF IN A PLACE THAT HE DIDN'T EXPECT TO BE.

>> INTERESTINGLY, YOU DESCRIBED THIS SHIFTING RHETORIC FROM THE UNITED STATES, IT'S BEEN ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT ON, IN TERMS OF DECISIONS AND ACTUALLY, INTERESTING COMMUNICATION FROM THE IRANIAN LEADERSHIP.

EVEN, AND I'M GOING TO PLAY THIS, THE NOW SERIOUSLY INJURED FORMER FORMER MINISTER TOLD FRED PIKE AND WHEN WE WERE THE FIRST TEAM INTO IRAN, THIS IS WHAT HE SAID WHEN ASKED ABOUT YOU KNOW, HOW THIS WENT AND THIS WAS IN THE FIRST WEEK OF THE WAR.

LET'S LISTEN.

>> I DON'T SEE ANY ROOM FOR DIPLOMACY BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP HAD BEEN DECEIVING OTHERS AND NOT KEEPING WITH HIS PROMISES.

>> THAT'S REFERRING TO JUNE AND FEBRUARY, WHERE THEY THOUGHT, THE IRANIANS THAT THEY WERE IN A NEGOTIATING PROCESS AND THEY WERE STRUCK.

>> EXACTLY.

AND YOU COULD ADD, HIM BEING HIT AS WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS FINDING IT VERY DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH IRANIANS RIGHT NOW.

IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T TRUST EVEN TALKING TO HIM ABOUT A DEAL BECAUSE THEY THINK THIS MIGHT BE A RUSE, PEOPLE IN IRAN ACTUALLY SAY THAT THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF TRYING TO ORGANIZE A MEETING BETWEEN AMERICANS AND IRANIANS, IN ISLAMABAD IS TO SMOKE OUT THE IRANIANS OUT OF THEIR HIDING PLACES SO THEY CAN KILL THEM.

AND SO PRESIDENT TRUMP ALSO HAS TO DEAL WITH THE LEGACY OF THIS DISTRUST THAT HE HAS CREATED AND THE IRANIANS ARE ASKING FOR GUARANTEES, THEY SIGNED THE DEAL WITH THE UNITED STATES IN 2015, HE POCKETED THE GAMES THAT UNITED STATES HAD GOTTEN OUT OF THAT DEAL, THE IRANIANS WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IF THEY SIGN A DEAL NOW, THREE MONTHS FROM NOW, HE WILL NOT GO OUT OF THE DEAL AGAIN.

SO THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT THE IRANIANS DON'T WANT TO TALK.

I THINK EVERY WAR ULTIMATELY HAS TO FINISH DIPLOMATICALLY.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE STRESS THAT HE HAS CREATED IS SO HUGE THAT HE HAS DIFFICULTY TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO ACTUALLY GET THE IRANIANS TO AGREE TO TERMS AND SIGNED A DEAL.

AND HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW HE WILL GIVE THOSE GUARANTEES TO HIM TO DO SO.

>> ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE FACT THAT MOHAMMED, WHO'S THE SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT, AND IS PRETTY MUCH, SINCE OTHERS HAVE BEEN ASSASSINATED, HAS TAKEN A BIT OF A LEAD IN THE DAY-TO-DAY RUNNING OF THE COUNTRY.

HE KEEPS TWEETING OR RATHER POSTING ON X, TO THE U. S. AND TO TRUMP, IN VERY COLLOQUIAL LANGUAGE, LIKE IT'S EITHER CHATGPT OR HE'S GOT SOME SPEECHWRITER, BUT LET ME JUST QUOTE YOU THIS, THE LATEST.

THIS IS HIM SAYING, LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING STRAIGHT FROM THE GUT.

IRANIANS DON'T JUST TALK ABOUT DEFENDING THEIR COUNTRY, WE LEAVE FOR IT.

WE'VE DONE IT BEFORE AND WE ARE READY TO DO IT AGAIN.

YOU COME FOR OUR HOME, YOU WILL MEET THE WHOLE FAMILY.

LOCKED, LOADED AND STANDING TALL.

BRING IT ON.

I MEAN, THAT IS VERY VERNACULAR, AND LANGUAGE THAT CLEARLY AMERICANS UNDERSTAND.

>> NO, ABSOLUTELY, AGAIN, I THINK HE HAS A VERY GOOD TEAM.

THE PEOPLE IN IRAN, WHO WORK ON THESE THINGS IN IRGC, AND THE GOVERNMENT, THEY ARE VERY GOOD, VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT HOW TO ENGAGE THE UNITED STATES AND THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

IN LANGUAGE THEY UNDERSTAND, THEY LEARN FROM THE PALESTINIANS DURING THE GAZA WAR, IT IS NOT CHATGPT.

WHAT WE HAVE TO LEARN NOW AFTER 30 DAYS, YOU SHOULD NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE IRANIANS, JUST LIKE THE UNITED STATES UNDERESTIMATED WHAT THEY MIGHT DO IN THE GULF, THEY SHOULD NOT UNDERESTIMATE THEM ON THE INFORMATION WARFARE SIDE OF THINGS, EITHER.

THEY PROVEN TO BE VERY EFFECTIVE IN GETTING THEIR MESSAGE OUT, NOT ONLY TO AMERICANS BUT TO A LARGER POPULATION AROUND THE WORLD THROUGH VARIETIES OF VIDEOS USING SOCIAL MEDIA, TIKTOK, INSTAGRAM, X AND THEY ARE BASICALLY TROLLING, IF I MIGHT SAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THEY ARE APPOINTED TO THE FACT THAT THEY ARE STILL THERE, THEY ARE FIGHTING AND THEY ARE RESISTING AND THEY ARE NOT GOING AWAY.

THEY ARE TREATING INFORMATION ESSENTIALLY AS ANOTHER FRONT IN WHICH THEY ARE GOING TO PUSH BACK AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS EFFORTS TO JUSTIFY THIS WAR.

>> VALI, HAVE YOU BEEN NOTICING ONLINE OR ANY OF THE DEEP DIVES INTO THE IRANIAN COMMUNICATIONS DURING THIS WAR, WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN ANY RECOGNITION INSIDE OF IRAN THAT IN FACT, THEY CAN'T CONTINUE LIKE THIS, EVEN IF THE REGIME STAYS, THEY HAVE TO CHANGE.

HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING COMING OUT OF FOR INSTANCE THE FORMER PRESIDENT, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

>> I THINK THE SENSE IS THAT IT IS TOO SOON FOR THEM TO THINK ABOUT AFTER THE WAR.

THEY ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LARGEST WAR PERHAPS THAT THEY HAVE FACED SINCE THE IRAN AND IRAQ WAR IN THE 1980S AND THIS WAY, IT'S ALREADY MORE DANGEROUS AND IT MIGHT BE COSTLY THAN THAT WAR.

THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO DECIDE, BUT I THINK THERE IS A SENSE IN IRAN, THAT THEY ARE FIGHTING THE WORLD'S PREMIER SUPERPOWER, WE ARE FIGHTING THE MOST ELITE MILITARY AND THEY ARE ALONE IN THE FIGHT AND THEY HAVE TO PULL TOGETHER AND THEY HAVE TO EXECUTE THEIR STRATEGY VERY METHODICALLY, AND THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A STRATEGY THAT HAS WORKED.

THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY BEING PUNISHED HEAVILY BY THE BOMBINGS.

IT'S DESTROYING THE COUNTRY IN MANY LEVELS BUT THEY HAVE NOT PUT THE UNITED STATES ON THE BACK FOOT WHEN IT COMES TO THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND TO THE GULF AND GLOBAL ENERGY.

AND THEY THINK THAT IN THE END, THEY HAVE GREATER ENDURANCE THAN DONALD TRUMP HAS.

THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE BETTING ON.

AND THE UNITED STATES, PARTICULARLY TRUMP WILL BE ULTIMATELY SHORT OF BREATH AND IF THEY WERE TO LISTEN TO LAST NIGHT, I THINK THEY WOULD FEEL VINDICATED THAT THIS IS A PRESIDENT THAT BASICALLY IS LASHING OUT, IS FRUSTRATED, DOESN'T HAVE A STRATEGY, DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO AND IS NOT ACTUALLY IN COMMAND OF THE WAR.

HE CAN PUNISH IRAN BUT HE CANNOT CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF THE WAR RIGHT NOW.

THE THREAT TO SEND IRAN TO THE STONE AGE DOES NOT CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF THE WAR.

>> VALI, TRUMP ALSO ESSENTIALLY SAID 400 KILOS OF HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM IS UNTOUCHABLE, AND IF IT DOES GET TOUCHED, WE WILL KEEP BOMBING.

SO A SIGNAL THAT HE IS LEAVING THAT, SAID THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WILL ESSENTIALLY OPEN ITSELF, SIGNALED AGAIN, THAT HE WASN'T GOING TO DO THAT.

HE'S BEEN REALLY KNOCKING BACK ALLIES, PRESIDENT MACRON CAME OUT AND SAID THIS IS NOT A TV SHOW.

WE HAVE TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT THIS.

DAMAGING ALLIES INTEREST NOW, ACCORDING TO MANY, THEIR ECONOMIC INTEREST BUT I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HEARD JON KIRBY BEFORE YOU SAY THAT IF THE REGIME SURVIVES, THE ENTIRE ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN THE U. S. AND ITS GULF ALLIES INCLUDING THE BASES THERE, SORRY, I'VE ONLY GOT 10 SECONDS, IT MIGHT HAVE TO BE REVISITED, DID YOU SEE THAT?

>> I THINK THEY CANNOT LOOK AT THE PAST AS A MODEL FOR THE FUTURE OF THE GULF.

EVERYTHING ABOUT THE GULF HAS CHANGED WHETHER IT'S THE REGIME SURVIVING OR NOT SURVIVING.

>> ON THAT NOTE, VALI NASR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AS WE BEEN HEARING, AMERICANS SHIFTING OBJECTIONS FOR THE WAR IN IRAN ARE GIVING THE WORLD WHIPLASH BUT WHAT IS BEHIND THE UNCERTAINTY?

NEW YORK TIMES DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT, EDWARD WONG SAID IT'S ALL PART OF THE PRESIDENTS DESTROY AND DEAL DOCTORATE, AND HE IS JOINING WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN AND ALSO ABOUT CHINA'S INCREASINGLY COMPLICATED ROLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, EDWARD WONG, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> WALTER, IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A BROAD QUESTION ABOUT THE YEAR AND A HALF OR SO THAT WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YOU HAD GREENLAND, YOU HAD HIM MAKING THAT BIG OBSESSION, AND THEN KIND OF BACKING OFF, LIKEWISE, PRESIDENT MADURO IN VENEZUELA, HE GOES IN, HAS A REGIME CHANGE, DOESN'T EMBRACE THE OPPOSITION, NOW WE'VE SEEN THIS IN IRAN, WHERE HE'S GOING BACK AND FORTH.

IS THERE SOME METHOD IN THIS MADNESS THAT MAYBE IT'S THE ART OF THE DEAL AND HE'S VERY TRANSACTIONAL?

IS THERE A TRUMP DOCTRINE OR IS IT JUST IMPROVISATION?

>> I WOULD SAY IT'S MOSTLY IMPROVISATION.

EVAN --I REMEMBER SPEAKING TO A VERY SENIOR OFFICIAL WHO WORKED IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

AND THIS NOW FORMER OFFICIALS SAID YOU JOURNALISTS, REPORTERS AND ANALYSTS, YOU LIKE TO DRAW A PICTURE THAT CONNECTS ALL OF THESE DOTS AND TRUMP'S POLICY TO SAY HERE'S THE STRATEGY THAT HE'S PURSUING BUT IN FACT, FROM HERE INSIDE THE ADMINISTRATION, WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS JUST DAY- TO-DAY DECISIONS, RAMBLINGS, YOU KNOW, OFFKILTER REMARKS, AND LOTS OF WAFFLING, DEPENDING ON THE PRESIDENTS IMPULSE OF THE DAY.

SO HE SAID THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD KEEP IN MIND WHEN WE ARE ASSESSING TRUMP'S REMARKS AND I HAVE KEPT THAT, HIS ADVICE IN MY HEAD EVER SINCE THEN.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US TO REMEMBER.

I DO THINK THOUGH, WHEN WE LOOK AT TRUMP'S FOREIGN-POLICY, THERE ARE SOME BROAD THINGS THAT WE CAN SAY OUR CONSISTENT AND THUS PAINT A PICTURE OF HOW TRUMP THINKS ABOUT THE WORLD AND ABOUT AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD.

ONE, I DO THINK TRUMP THINKS, YOU KNOW, WHETHER HE EXPLICITLY THINKS IN THESE TERMS IN HIS HEAD OR NOT BUT THE IDEA OF EMPIRE IS A GOOD ONE.

THAT AMERICA AND OTHER WESTERN NATIONS WERE IN THEIR GREATEST GLORY WHEN THEY EXERCISED COERCIVE CONTROL OVER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, AND TRUMP WOULD LIKE TO DO THIS AGAIN.

I THINK THAT'S BEEN BORNE OUT VERY CLEARLY BY HIS POLICIES.

AND THAT INCLUDES ACQUIRING TERRITORY.

THE OTHER THING I THINK THAT WE ARE SEEING, THAT IS IN TERMS OF THIS EXERCISE OF AMERICAN POWER AND MILITARY POWER OVERSEAS, HE IS VERY HAPPY TO BOMB COUNTRIES TO SEND FORCES INTO REGIONS, IN THE CASE OF VENEZUELA, TO SEND U. S. GROUND TROOPS INTO SEES THE LEADER OF A COUNTRY, BUT HE ALSO SHIES AWAY FROM THIS IDEA OF NATIONBUILDING.

SO, WHAT I SEE IS HIM SEEKING REGIME COMPLIANCE RATHER THAN REGIME CHANGE AROUND THE WORLD.

I CALL IT A DOCTRINE OF DESTROY AND DEAL.

HE'S WILLING TO DESTROY PARTS OF COUNTRIES IN ORDER TO GET THEM TO SUBMIT AND THEN HE'S WILLING TO MAKE DEALS WITH A LEVEL OF LEADERSHIP THAT HE THINKS WILL COMPLY WITH HIM, OR THAT WILL ABATE HIM, ONCE HE'S GOTTEN RID OF THE LEADERSHIP ABOVE THEM.

I THINK THAT IS A VERY CONSISTENT ACTION THAT WE ARE SEEING IN IRAN, EVEN THOUGH HE TALKS ABOUT REGIME CHANGE, IN REALITY, THERE HAS BEEN NO REGIME CHANGE AND IN FACT, HE IS SEEKING SOMEONE IN THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP THAT HE CAN DO A DEAL WITH.

>> DO YOU THINK SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION ACTUALLY BY THE FACT THAT WE HAD A REGIME CHANGE BECAUSE IT'S CERTAINLY A MORE HARDLINE REGIME LED BY AN AYATOLLAH?

>> PETE HEGSETH SAID UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT THE REGIME HAS CHANGED IN IRAQ.

HEGSETH HAS USUALLY STUCK TO TRUMP'S TALKING POINTS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO, WHO'S ALSO THE WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR AND HE'S BEEN VERY SKEPTICAL OF WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN REAL CHANGE.

I THINK THAT COMES ACROSS IN HIS PUBLIC COMMENTS.

HE SAID IN RECENT INTERVIEWS THAT THE PROBLEM WITH IRAN IS WHAT HE CALLS THE RADICAL SHIA, HE USES THE PRESENT TENSE, THE ONE THAT IS NOW IN POWER AFTER THE KILLING OF THE SUPREME LEADER AND HIS TOP AIDES, AND, RUBIO HAS MADE THE ASSERTION THAT THE U. S. HAS TO COMPLETELY DEGRADE IRAN'S CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS CAPABILITIES BECAUSE THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP CAN'T BE TRUSTED AND IT'S ESSENTIALLY AN ADVERSARY.

SO THE U. S. HAS TO TAKE THOSE MEASURES.

SO, IT'S CLEAR, I THINK, RUBIO IS MUCH MORE SKEPTICAL THAN TRUMP OR HEGSETH THAT THERE HAS BEEN REGIME CHANGE IN IRAN.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE DOES SEEM TO BE SOME LIGHT BETWEEN RUBIO AND HIS CLEAR OBJECTIVES FOR THE WAR AND PRESIDENT TRUMP'S OBJECTIVES OF THE WAR, IS THERE DAYLIGHT BETWEEN THEM?

>> I'M NOT SURE THERE'S DAYLIGHT, AS MUCH AS RUBIO, HE WANTS TO PRESENT PUBLICLY A LIST OF WAR AIMS THAT TRUMP CAN CREDIBLY SAY THE U. S. HAS ACHIEVED SO THEY CAN DECLARE VICTORY AND PULL U. S. OUT OF COMBAT OPERATIONS IN THE COUNTRY HE CHOSE TO DO SO.

I THINK RUBIO IS PLAYING A CERTAIN ROLE HERE AND RUBIO, JUST THIS WEEK, LISTED FOUR VERY CONCRETE WAR AIMS, CENTERED AROUND IRAN'S CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS CAPABILITIES INCLUDING DESTROYING THE IRANIAN AIR FORCE, THEIR NAVY, WHAT HE CALLS SEVERELY DIMINISHING THEIR CAPABILITY TO LAUNCH MISSILES AND ALSO DESTROYING FACTORIES THAT PRODUCE THOSE WEAPONS.

THE U. S. CAN CREDIBLY CLAIM THAT IT ALONG WITH ISRAEL HAS ACCOMPLISHED MOST OF THOSE GOALS, SO TRUMP COULD ESSENTIALLY HANG UP A MISSION ACCOMPLISHED BANNER IF HE CHOSE TO DO SO BUT TRUMP HIMSELF HAS BEEN ALL OVER THE MAP, HE HAS SAID THINGS FROM WE WANT TO ERADICATE THERE, YOU KNOW, THEIR NUCLEAR STOCKPILES, WHICH COULD INVOLVE SENDING IN GROUND TROOPS TO SEIZE HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM, HE ALSO SAID WE WANT TO DO A REGIME CHANGE AND WE'VE DONE A REGIME CHANGE.

THAT'S PROBABLY THE MOST AMBITIOUS GOAL AND AS I'VE SAID, NOT MANY PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT IRAN TODAY, THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN REGIME CHANGE.

>> IN THE PAST WEEK OR TWO TRUMP SAID WE ARE HAVING TALKS, NOT HAVING TALKS, AND PAKISTAN WAS INVOLVED IN SOME OF THOSE TALKS, TO WHAT EXTENT WAS THERE SOME TRUTH TO THAT?

>> THERE IS A PASSING OF MESSAGES BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

IT'S MOSTLY BEING DONE VIA INTERMEDIARIES AND PAKISTAN IS ONE OF THEM.

PAKISTAN HAS A HIGH RANKING OFFICIAL WHO IS IN TOUCH WITH MILITARY OFFICIALS IN IRAN AND RIGHT NOW, WE THINK THAT MILITARY OFFICIALS IN IRAN HOLD MUCH OF THE POWER IN IRAN EVEN THOUGH THE SON OF THE FORMER SUPREME LEADER IS CURRENTLY NAMED AS THE TOP LEADER IN IRAN.

AND SO, THAT'S A CHANNEL THAT IS OPEN.

THE U. S. IS RELAYING MESSAGES VIA PAKISTAN AND IRAN IS DOING THE SAME, AND WE'VE RECENTLY SEEN PAKISTAN GO TO CHINA AND ASK FOR CHINA TO HELP ACT AS A MEDIATOR IN THIS AND CHINA AND PAKISTAN HAVE PUT OUT FIVE- POINT JOINT STATEMENTS, AND THEY SAY THERE NEEDS TO BE AN END TO THE HOSTILITIES IN THE REGION.

>> SO CHINA'S INVOLVEMENT IS VERY INTERESTING HERE.

HAS THIS WHOLE THING MADE CHINA MORE OF A PLAYER ON THE STAGE AND WHAT WILL THIS MEAN IF AND WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SCHEDULED TO GO TO MEET WITH PRESIDENT SHE IN A MONTH OR SO?

>> CHINA AS WE KNOW IS A COUNTRY THAT IS SOMEWHAT CLOSE TO IRAN.

I WOULDN'T SAY THERE IDEOLOGICALLY ALIGNED, IT'S THE BIGGEST PURCHASER OF OIL, THEY SHARE COMMERCIAL AND MILITARY TIES.

AND IT'S ALSO PAKISTAN'S CLOSEST ALLY.

SO THERE IS A CONFLUENCE OF INTEREST HERE.

AND, CHINA, STEPPING TO DIPLOMACY IS AN INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT.

I THINK CHINA HAS MADE SOME EFFORT TO GET INVOLVED IN MIDDLE EAST DIPLOMACY.

IT OFTEN TRIES TO STAY AWAY FROM CONFLICTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST OR OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD BECAUSE IT FEELS THAT MIGHT WORK AGAIN IT'S -- AGAINST ITS INTEREST IT SAYS IT DOESN'T WANT ANY PART OF THAT TYPE OF SCENARIO.

BUT, WHEN IT FEELS THAT THERE IS AN END GOAL THAT CAN BE ACHIEVED WITH CHINA'S HELP, IT DOES STEP IN.

A FEW YEARS AGO, DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WE SAW THAT CHINA CAME IN TO HELP IRAN AND SAUDI ARABIA FINALIZE AN OPENING AFTER THE TWO COUNTRIES HAD BEEN NEGOTIATING FOR SEVERAL YEARS ON THE WHOLE THING.

SO, CHINA DOES TAKE AN INTEREST WHEN IT FEELS IT MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING.

AND SO, I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT CHINA IS NOW PARTNERING WITH PAKISTAN TO TRY AND PUSH FOR NEGOTIATIONS TOWARDS A CEASE-FIRE AND ALSO, IN THEIR FIVE-POINT STATEMENT, THEY'RE PUSHING FOR AN OPENING OF SHIPPING ACROSS THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WHICH WE KNOW IS PROBABLY THE THORNIEST ISSUE RIGHT NOW IN THE CONFLICT.

THE FACT THAT THE IRANIAN MILITARY, IN ORDER TO EXERT LEVERAGE HAS ESSENTIALLY CLOSED OFF THE STREET BY THREATENING SHIPS WITH THE TAX, IRAN DOES ALLOW CERTAIN SHIPS TO GO ACROSS, IF THEY ARE PAKISTANI FLAGS.

FOR INSTANCE, OR IF THEY ARE BOUND FOR CHINA.

SO CHINA HAS BEEN GETTING ENERGY SUPPLIES FROM IRAN AND AT THE SAME TIME, THE CLOSER TO MOST SHIPS HAS REALLY SENT ENERGY MARKETS AROUND THE WORLD INTO TURMOIL.

I'M SURE ALL YOUR VIEWERS WHO GO GET GASOLINE FOR THEIR CARS, THEY HAVE NOTICED THIS.

I THINK CHINA AND PAKISTAN BOTH HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN TRYING TO GET THE HOSTILITIES TO END AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN REPORTS THAT THE IRANIANS ARE ALLOWING SHIPS THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ BOTH WITH PAKISTANI FLAGS BUT ALSO, PAYING IN CHINESE CURRENCY SOMETIMES.

DO YOU THINK THIS WHOLE THING WILL INCREASE THE INFLUENCE THAT CHINA HAS OVER?

>> I THINK CHINA HAS BEEN TRYING TO GET VARIOUS COUNTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AS WELL AS OTHER COUNTRIES, TOO, TO PAY FOR GOODS AND SERVICES IN IRAN BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE THEIR CURRENCY INTO A RESERVE CURRENCY FOR THE WORLD LIKE THE U. S. DOLLAR.

ALONG WITH ITS MILITARY POWER, THE FACT THAT THE DOLLARS ARE RESERVED CURRENCY, IT UNDERPINS POWER AROUND THE WORLD -- >> COULD THAT BE A SUCCESSFUL STRATEGY?

SO THE PETRODOLLAR IS NO LONGER THE MAIN USE OF CURRENCY?

>> IF CHINA ACHIEVES THAT, IT WILL BE A SUCCESSFUL STRATEGY, YOU KNOW, BUT THEY ARE A LONG WAYS FROM THAT.

THEY HAVE BEEN IN TALKS WITH SAUDI ARABIA TO GET SAUDI ARABIA TO PAY, TO TAKE PAYMENT AND THEY'VE HAD SOME SUCCESS BUT AT THE SOME --SAME TIME, THEY HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, AND IF IRAN HAS A CHANCE TO DO THAT.

I THINK THAT'S A QUESTION THAT IS UP IN THE AIR.

I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT WE ARE HEARING ABOUT THIS AND IT DOES SHOW THAT CHINA HAS CERTAIN STRATEGIC AMBITIONS AND THIS WORK COULD BOLSTER THOSE STRATEGIC AMBITIONS ON THE PART OF CHINA.

I THINK THE MAIN WAY THAT CHINA BENEFITS FROM THE WAR IS THAT IT DIVERTS U. S. ATTENTION AWAY FROM CHINA'S OWN MILITARY BUILDUP IN THE ASIA-PACIFIC REGION.

WE KNOW THAT CERTAIN OFFICIALS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, VERY HIGH RANKING OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS THAT THE U. S. HAS TO BUILD UP MILITARY ARMS AND PRESENCE IN THE ASIAN PACIFIC IN ORDER TO DETER THE CHINESE NOTION OF AN INVASION OF TAIWAN OR AGGRESSION AGAINST OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE AREA.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS THE U. S. DIVERTING HUGE AMOUNTS OF MILITARY RESOURCES AWAY FROM THE ASIA-PACIFIC REGION TO THE MIDDLE EAST WHICH IS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT TRUMP AND OTHER PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN SAYING THEY WANTED TO DO FOR ABOUT A DECADE NOW.

>> WHAT IS ALL OF THIS PORTEND FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SCHEDULED SUMMIT WITH PRESIDENT XI?

>> I THINK WHEN TRUMP GOES TO MEET WITH XI, IN TRUMP'S MIND, HE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE LEVERAGE OVER CHINA.

HE STARTED A TRADE WAR WITH CHINA, AS YOU KNOW, AND IT REALLY CAUSED CHAOS IN GLOBAL MARKETS.

IT WAS TARIFFS, LIKE HE IMPOSES ON OTHER COUNTRIES BUT IT HAD A MUCH BIGGER IMPACT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT CHINA IS THE WORLD'S SECOND-LARGEST ECONOMY AND AMERICA'S BIGGEST TRADING PARTNER.

AND SO, HE WANTED TO BASICALLY PUMMEL CHINA, TO GET WHAT HE CONSIDERS TO BE BETTER TRADE TERMS BUT CHINA CALLED HIS BLUFF AND SAID, WE WILL LIMIT OR STOP THE EXPORT OF CRITICAL MINERALS TO THE U.S., IF YOU GO AHEAD WITH THIS.

SO TRUMP BACKED DOWN AND HE CALLED A HALT IN THE TRADE WAR.

HE SEES CHINA AS AN ECONOMIC RIVAL.

HE DOESN'T SEE IT AS A STRATEGIC RIVAL.

HE HASN'T TALKED ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY GOAL ADVANCES AND HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT ITS SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE AND WHETHER THAT IS A CHALLENGE TO U. S. AND POWER OVERSEAS.

HE TALKS IN VERY POSITIVE TERMS ABOUT XI JINPING.

HE SAYS HE IS A VERY GOOD FRIEND, HE'S TALKED IN TERMS OF SHOWING ADMIRATION FOR HOW XI RUNS.

SHE WANTS TO BE SEEN AS AN EQUAL ON TRADE AND THAT'S HIS MAIN GOAL BUT THE IRAN WERE IN THE FACT THAT THE U. S. IS MIRED IN THIS CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE FACT THAT IT HAS CAUSED CHAOS IN THE GLOBAL MARKETS, THAT GIVES HIM LESS OF A HAND TO PLAY IN TALKS OF CHINA BECAUSE I THINK THAT HE GOES INTO THIS SUMMIT PROBABLY MORE CAUTIOUS THAN HE WOULD OTHERWISE.

IF HE THREATENS TO ESCALATE OR RESTART THE TRADE WAR, I THINK CHINA MIGHT CALL HIS BLUFF ON THAT.

HE KNOWS THAT THE MARKETS DEPEND ON HIS EVERY MOVE AT THIS POINT, WHETHER IT'S IN IRAN OR CHINA AND I THINK HE WANTS TO REASSURE THE MARKETS THAT THERE WON'T BE MORE TURBULENCE GOING AHEAD.

I THINK THAT IN A WAY, CONSTRICTS THE TYPE OF ASSERTIONS THAT HE CAN MAKE IN A SUMMIT WITH XI.

>> AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR, TRUMP TALKED ABOUT SIX WEEKS AS BEING SOMETHING, WELL, IT'S BEEN ABOUT SIX WEEKS.

DO YOU THINK THIS WAS ALWAYS PART OF HIS PLAN?

>> TRUMP HAS BEEN ALL OVER THE MAP ON STATING WHEN THE WAR WOULD END AND HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE.

HE SAID SIX WEEKS, AT ONE POINT HE SAID WE ARE WELL IT -- AHEAD OF SCHEDULE AND IT WILL BE ANOTHER COUPLE OF WEEKS.

AND THAT WAS MORE THAN TWO OR THREE WEEKS AGO.

SO, PEOPLE WHO OBSERVE TRUMP'S STATEMENTS HAVE SAID HE OFTEN SAYS TWO WEEKS, TWO WEEKS IS A TIMELINE THAT HE OFTEN THROWS OUT.

AND THINGS VERY OFTEN TAKE LONGER THAN THE TWO WEEKS THAT HE CITES.

SO WE SHOULD APPROACH THE TIMELINE THAT HE LAYS OUT WITH SOME SKEPTICISM AND AS WE KNOW, WHEN THE U. S. GOT INVOLVED IN WARS, STARTED OR SUPPORTED WARS IN OTHER PLACES, U. S. OFFICIALS HAD OFTEN SAID WE WILL TURN THE CORNER IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS OR IN A MONTH OR SO, AND OF COURSE, THOSE TURN INTO MANY MONTHS AND THEN MANY YEARS.

AND AMERICAN LEADERS AND AMERICAN POLITICIANS DON'T SEEM TO REALLY HAVE LEARNED A LESSON FROM THOSE PREVIOUS STATEMENTS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS A LOT, WALTER.

> >> FINALLY, A HISTORIC BLASTOFF, THE ARTEMIS II, SUCCESSFULLY LAUNCHED THIS WEEK, AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 50 YEARS, A SPACECRAFT IS ON THE WAY TO THE MOON, TAKING THE ASTRONAUTS FURTHER FROM EARTH THAN ANY HUMAN HAS BEEN BEFORE.

SO FAR, SO GOOD FOR THE FIRST 24 HOURS, THE TEAM COMPLETED A KEY MANEUVER, SETTING THE SPACE VESSEL ON ITS PATH WITHOUT A HITCH.

SPACE TRAVEL IS IRRESISTIBLE FOR MOST MERE MORTALS, CEMENTED OF COURSE BY THE APOLLO MISSIONS THAT LANDED MEN ON THE MOON, INCLUDING INSPIRATION FOR TOM HANKS, WHOSE LONDON EXHIBITION MOONWALK OR PREVIEWED ARTEMIS AND REFLECTED ON APOLLO.

>> FOR MYSELF, WHEN I WAS 13, THE APOLLO MISSIONS WERE THIS EXAMPLE OF, IT WAS AN EVOLUTIONARY PLACE IN THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF HUMANKIND BECAUSE THE ONLY REASON TO GO TO THE MOON WAS BECAUSE WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND WE DESIRE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HILL.

THAT AFFECTED ME VERY MUCH AND IF WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS, DO WE NOT HAVE TO REMAIN CURIOUS?

>> CURIOUS INDEED, AND WITH THE LAST ADVENTURE IN 1972, IT IS NO WONDER THAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE GATHERED TO WATCH THE NEW MISSION TO THE MOON FROM CAPE CANAVERAL, IN FLORIDA.

A LEFT OFF, TO LIFT ALL OF OUR SPIRITS.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.