GEOFF BENNETT: Good evening.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On the "News Hour" tonight: Economic forecasts## increasingly show the president's harsh# tariffs having a major global impact.

GEOFF BENNETT: The Vatican makes# arrangements for the funeral of## Pope Francis, as speculation# over his successor intensifies.

AMNA NAWAZ: And the Supreme Court# hears a potential landmark case## regarding religious rights# and public school curriculum.

MARCIA COYLE: If they rule in# favor of the parents, certainly,## you're going to see more# opt-outs in situations like this.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "News Hour."

President Trump's trade wars are likely to# slow down economic growth acro.. significantly this year.

That is the projection# from the International Monetary Fund today,## estimating the U.S. economy will slow down by an# entire percentage point compared to last year,## growing by just 1.8 percent.

Global growth was# projected to slow by half of a percentage point.

GEOFF BENNETT: Tariffs and uncertainty# are rattling other important parts of## the economy.

The dollar has continued its# slide, and investors are showing that they## have new worries about treasury bonds,# often some of the safest investments.

But the U.S. markets rebounded# substantially today.

That came## after Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent# reportedly told investors that he believes## the trade war with China is unsustainable and# hopes tariffs on both sides could be eased.

The Dow gained back more than 1,000 points,## or 2.6 percent.

The Nasdaq jumped 2.7 percent.# And the S&P 500 also gained about 2.5 percent.

And, late today, President Trump suggested he was# open to easing up on the trade wars with China.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United# States: I'm not going to say, oh,## I'm going to play hardball with China.

I'm goi.. no.

We're going to be very nice.

They're going# to be very nice.

And we will see what happens.

But, ultimately, they have# to make a deal, because,## otherwise, they're not going to be# able to deal in the United States.

GEOFF BENNETT: To help us understand the# volatility in the markets, let's turn now## to longtime financial journalist# and CNBC contributor Ron Insana.

Ron, it's great to be able# to draw on your insights on## a day like today.

Thanks for being here.

RON INSANA, CNBC Contributor: I was hoping# to get some insights from you, Geoff.

(LAUGHTER) GEOFF BENNETT: We will see about that, friend.

RON INSANA: This is as much volatility# as I h.. GEOFF BENNETT: Well, let's talk about that,## because the treasury secretary reported.. president's trade war with China.

You# heard the president there himself.

What's your read on all that's happening?

And# what is this potentially setting the stage for?

RON INSANA: Well, they're most clearly and most# definitively listening to the financial markets,## as you both outlined at the top of the show.

I# mean, not only is global growth being downgraded.## U.S. growth is being downgraded, the IMF# actually behind private economists in doing that.

And then you have seen these ripples in# the Treasury market, the decline in the## dollar to a three-year low, the turmoil in# the stock market.

And financial instruments## are telling politicians, number one, moving# this fast without a plan is a very bad idea.

Some of the ideas themselves are bad, like# potentially firing Fed Chairman Jay Powell.## And also just engaging in an all-out# trade war is detrimental to growth,## if not devastating, should it become# a full-blown international event.

And so I think they're starting to# get the message, and particularly## the treasury secretary is probably trying to# talk the president off the ledge, as it were,## with respect to some of the more harsh comments# he's made about Jay Powell recently and also about## this intensifying trade war with China, which the# treasury secretary effectively called an embargo.

That's a big word to use in# an environment like this.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, you mentioned the# markets.

And let's talk more about that,## because, before today's rally, The Wall# Street Journal noted that the Dow Jones## industrial average was headed for the# worst April since the Great Depression,## since 1932, because of a lack# of confidence by investors.

I mean, is this -- this period of volatility,## is this our new normal, at least for as long# as this tariff plan, this trade war lasts?

RON INSANA: Yes, I absolutely think volatility# is going to remain elevated, I mean, maybe not## to the extent that we saw in the last several# weeks, but I do think that, until we get clarity## around where these negotiations are going and what# the actual endgame is, what we want from each and## every one of our trading partners is clear, and# whether or not there are agreements to be had.

Remember, these often take months or years# to construct, and they're trying to do## multiple deals, as many as 70 deals, within# 90 days.

That's something that I would assume## is impossible.

Progress on this front would# be helpful to financial markets, to be sure.

But the issues around that, whether or not# we have a fully set of sustainable deals that## are long-term in nature, is really what the# market needs to calm down and start following## more traditional metrics like corporate# earnings, the direction of interest rates,## should lower rates be warranted, things like# that, that are germane to typical market behavior.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, the# president, at least for today,## is easing up on China.

He's also# easing up apparently on the Fed chair,## Jay Powell.

Today he told reporters, he# said: "I have no intention of firing him."

Last week, he said -- quote -- "If I want him out,# he will be out of there real fast, believe me."

He's still voicing -- the president is still# voicing his desire for the Fed to cut rates.## Is the Fed strong enough to resist the# pressure?

Because not every institution,## not every American institution, as we have seen,## has been strong enough to resist the# pressure from the Trump administration.

RON INSANA: Yes, I think the Fed most# definitely is.

I think Jay Powell has## even said, both privately and maybe even publicly,## that he would spend every last nickel# that he has fighting to stay in his job.

And the Fed, as an institution, has been extremely# independent as an agency for quite some time.## And, again, I think that the independence# of the Fed is critical to the safety and## soundness of U.S. assets, the way# foreigners view the stability of## the U.S. economy, the reliability of# the dollar or U.S. Treasury bonds.

All of those things are really important.

Now, the# Fed may still hear from Donald Trump, President## Trump, on an ongoing basis about lowering rates,# but the Fed will do what it does when it needs## to do it.

So I think this is going to be no# longer a test of wills.

I think Jay Powell now,## given that the president just said that today,# that he has no intention of firing Jay Powell,## which my colleague Eamon Javers at CNBC asked him# about, I think we're OK until his term expires.

Who he ultimately replaces him with is# an open question.

But I think the Fed,## now that the president has backed off,# will be able to withstand these pressures.

GEOFF BENNETT: And lastly, Ron, when the IMF,# the International Monetary Fund, slashes its## us and global economic forecasts, it says the# U.S. economy is expected to grow by about 1.8## percent -- that's down from its January estimate# of 2.7 percent -- put that in plain English.

What does that mean for the economy and# the prospects potentially of a recession?

RON INSANA: Well, the IMF appears to be# slightly more optimistic than most private## economists.

We have heard estimates that# there's as much as a 90 percent chance of## a recession if these tariffs remained# in place for a sustained period.

And so, personally, I think 1.8 percent# is a little bit optimistic if the tariff## negotiations go on for several more months.# We're already hearing that shipments of goods## from China have all but ceased and that ports# in Los Angeles and Long Beach, California,## have quieted down considerably# and not receiving a lot of goods.

And so these are long cycle types of phenomenon# that if indeed this were to persist for some time,## getting 1.8 percent growth would# be a victory, given that we grew## about 2.5 percent last year.

My guess is that# we're going to grow under 1 percent this year## if this type of uncertainty persists, both# in terms of market behavior and ultimately## in terms of businesses' inability to plan# around the tariffs, whatever they might be.

This is -- as I said earlier, this is going# to take time to work out.

So the first two or## three-quarters of this year might be a little# bit weaker than even the IMF is suggesting.

GEOFF BENNETT: That is Ron Insana.

Ron, always a pleasure.

Thanks for being with us.

RON INSANA: Thanks for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ:## The Catholic faithful and many more around# the world continue to pay their respects## today to Pope Francis one day after his# death.

An official period of mourning## began in Italy that will last through his# funeral this weekend, as security ramps up## to prepare for the throngs of mourners and# world leaders expected to gather in Rome.

Malcolm Brabant reports once# again from Rome tonight.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Lying in an open coffin# under the watchful eye of Swiss guards,## this was Pope Francis' silent farewell to the# humble Vatican guesthouse that had been his home.

Tomorrow, his coffin will be# taken to St. Peter's Basilica,## where he will lie in state and the# faithful will come to pay their respects.## Today, a gathering of cardinals announced# that his funeral would take place on Saturday.

Consistent with his humility, Pope Francis# asked not to be interred in the Vatican,## but in a beautiful church in Rome called Santa# Maria Maggiore in a simple wooden casket.

CARDINAL GIANFRANCO RAVASI, President#Emeritus, Pontifi... Culture (through translator): This is#perhaps the last mess... especially remembering that he wants to be buried# under the shadow of a woman, in this case Mary.## This is also significant in terms of the# church's desire to do more for women.

MALCOLM BRABANT: The conclave to elect his# successor will take place three weeks later## in the exquisite Sistine Chapel.

Although,# theoretically, the selection process could## take months, experts predict the cardinals# will reach a conclusion relatively swiftly,## as in recent times, in order to present# a unified face to the Catholic world.

Although the conclave to elect the new pope# is not going to begin until the middle of May,## behind the scenes, the debate amongst the# cardinals has begun in earnest.

Those over 80## are barred from taking part in the election, but# Vatican watchers are certain that they are using## their influence to try to pressure their# younger colleagues to bend to their will.

DAVID WILLEY, Author, "The Promise of Francis:# The Man, the Pope, and the Challenge of Change": I## think this is going .. very strong debate in secret in the# Vatican over the next three weeks## between those cardinals who would be# happier to see a more traditionalist## pope take over from Francis and those# who want his reforms to continue.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Author of "The Promise# of Francis," David Willey is a renowned## Vatican expert, having covered# eight papacies.

While conservatives## within the Catholic hierarchy seek a# return to traditional strict values,## Willey believes that, if the church wants to# remain relevant, it can't turn the clock back.

DAVID WILLEY: For most ordinary people,# the issues at stake are pretty simple,## contraception, homosexuality, abortion.

These# are all issues which affect all families.

And I think that the church is# going to have to deal with them## on a much more human level than in the# past, when it's tended to be dogmatic.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Although conservatives remain# influential, Willey doubts they will muster a## majority among the 135 cardinals# eligible to vote in the conclave.

DAVID WILLEY: It's only fair to say that more# than 100 of the cardinals who were taking part## in the election were appointed by Pope Francis# himself.

So the chances are that you're going## to get somebody who is very much in tune with# the sort of papacy that we have just witnessed.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Across Africa, where Catholicism# is surging, nearly 300 million people are hoping## that the conclave will elect an African pope.# Africa is more conservative than Europe.

Religious## leaders there believe that a liberal agenda# has contributed to the demise of the church.

Geoffroy Kouakou rector of Lady of Peace# Basilica in Yamoussoukro, Ivory Coast.

RECTOR GEOFFROY KOUADIO KOUAKOU, Basilica of Our# Lady of Peace (through translator): We pray to## God that the new pope who will come.. decisions against everything that is being spread# in the name of globalization and civilization.

JEAN LUC GBERE, Catholic# Worshiper (through translator):## So, for the next pope who will come, my# greatest wish is that he be a Black .. MALCOLM BRABANT: As funeral# preparations gather pace,## Catholics are assessing Francis'# legacy of groundbreaking leadership.

BISHOP PAUL TIGHE, Secretary, Vatican Dicastery# for Culture and Education: I think he has## helped the church to remember, yes, we are an# institut.. We're a community of people who# are privileged to have belief in## God and who journey with others who# don't necessarily have that faith.

But we journey together to try and# make this a better world.

And that## I think is his legacy.

It's to say look# your faith is something that should push## you and encourage you to be working with# others for the betterment of our world.

MALCOLM BRABANT: He was the first pope to endorse# same-sex civil unions and called for the universal## decriminalization of homosexuality.

And while he# raised women's profile within the church, Pope## Francis maintained the status quo by ensuring the# priesthood remained an exclusively male preserve.

While his orders outraged# conservative traditionalists,## others argued that he didn't go far enough.# Pope Francis also infuriated Israel,## because of his opposition to the war in# Gaza and his support for the Palestinians.

But, today, in one of the most# important shrines in Christendom,## the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in# Jerusalem, patriarch Pierbattista## Pizzaballa paid tribute to Pope Francis# for advocating peace right until his death.

CARDINAL PIERBATTISTA PIZZABALLA, Latin# Patriarch, Jerusalem: With the beginning## of the war 7th of Octobe.. he was very close to the community of Gaza, the# parish of Gaza.

He kept calling the evening of## 7th, became for the community something stable# and also comforting for them.

And he knew this.

MALCOLM BRABANT: But those thoughts# aren't shared by the Israeli government,## which deleted an online post offering# condolences on the pontiff's passing.## In death, it seems, Francis is still# having an impact in the Middle East.

For the "PBS News Hour" I'm# Malcolm Brabant in Rome.

AMNA NAWAZ:##In the day's other headlines: Secretary of# Defense Pete Hegseth threatened possible## criminal prosecution against former staff# he accused of leaking information.

That## information involved Hegseth sharing# airstrike logistics in another chat## over the Signal messaging app, this# one including his wife and brother.

On his former FOX show this morning, Hegseth# again denied sharing any classified information## Signal.

Instead, he honed in on the internal# and recent removals of several of his top staff.

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. Defense Secretary: But we took# it seriously.

It led to some unfortunate places,## people I have known for quite some time,# but it's not my job to protect them.

When## that evidence is gathered sufficiently,# and this has all happened very quickly,## it will be handed over to DOJ, and those# people will be prosecuted if necessary.

AMNA NAWAZ: The Pentagon's inspector# general is investigating the secretary## and staff's use of the Signal# app.

Today, the White House again## defended Hegseth as he faces mounting# criticism about his job performance.

Secretary Marco Rubio instituted a sweeping# reorganization of the State Department today.

That## includes cuts and the elimination of a key office# that advances American values abroad.

Some of the## duties of that office will be folded into other# parts of the department, but few details were## provided.

Rubio also announced that State plans# to cut 15 percent of its U.S.-based employees.

Turning overseas now, Russia is ramping# up its attacks across Ukraine after## Moscow claimed to have observed a# brief Easter cease-fire.

Overnight,## crews battled burning buildings after# Russian drones hit the port city of## Odesa.

Hours later, Russian glide bombs# struck Zaporizhzhia, killing one woman.

All this comes as both Moscow and Kyiv# have signaled some openness to direct## talks.

A Kremlin spokesman said Russia# would consider a Ukrainian cease-fire## proposal on attacks to civilian# infrastructure.

Ukraine's President## Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that a cease-fire# would open the door for more dialogue.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, Ukrainian# President (through translator):## As for our delegation, it has a mandate for# discussing an unconditional cease-fire or a## partial cease-fire.

We are ready for this# stage.

We are also ready to state that,## after the cease-fire, we are# prepared to sit down in any format.

AMNA NAWAZ: President Trump's Ukraine envoy,# General Keith Kellogg, will represent the## U.S. in a new round of peace talks tomorrow in# London with Ukrainian and European officials.## Special envoy Steve Witkoff will visit Moscow this## week for a new round of talks with# Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Authorities say at least 26 people are dead# after four gunmen opened fire at a popular## Himalayan mountain resort in Indian-administered# Kashmir, the disputed territory between India and## Pakistan.

It was one of the deadliest# attacks on civilians in the region in## recent times.

In addition to the dead, three# dozen others were injured, many seriously.

Police and soldiers are still# searching for the attackers,## and there's been no claim yet of# responsibility for the massacre.

Meanwhile, on a visit to India, Vice# President J.D.

Vance said it's time## for more collaboration between the world's two# largest democracies.

Speaking to business leaders,## he warned of a very dark time ahead if the# two countries didn't more closely align on## everything from energy and defense to trade.# The U.S. is India's largest trading partner.

Vance knocked back criticisms that President# Trump's aggressive tariffs were threatening## that relationship and causing global turmoil.

J.D.

VANCE, Vice President of the United# States: Critics have attacked my president,## President Trump, for starting a trade war in# an effort to bring back the jobs of the past,## but nothing could be further from the truth.

He# seeks to rebalance global trade so that America,## with friends like India, can build a future# worth having for all of our people together.

AMNA NAWAZ: Vance met yesterday with# India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi,## and both leaders cited significant# progress toward a trade agreement.## Both nations have set an ambitious goal,# to try and double bilateral trade by 2030.

Today, a federal judge in Colorado# extended her order blocking the Trump## administration from deporting anyone in# that state under the Alien Enemies Act,## the rarely used wartime law passed in 1798.# The ruling also said the government must## give 21 days of notice before deportation to# allow for contesting the removal in court.

The Justice Department recently said it would# give migrants only 24 hours' notice before## deporting them.

The judge's order was the first# to impose some due process rights for migrants,## following a Supreme Court order earlier this month## that migrants be given the opportunity# to challenge their removals in court.

A federal jury in Manhattan today found The New# York Times did not libel former Alaska Governor## Sarah Palin.

Today's verdict came in a retrial of# Palin's case, where she alleged that a 2017 Times## editorial damaged her reputation by implying her# political action committee helped to incite the## deadly mass shooting in Arizona that severely# wounded former Representative Gabby Giffords.

The newspaper admitted the mistake and# had issued a correction within hours.

Three more federal prosecutors who# worked on the corruption case against## New York Mayor Eric Adams have resigned.

In# a letter obtained by several media outlets,## they said they were pressured to express regret# to the Justice Department for refusing to drop## Adams' case.

They wrote -- quote -- "We# will not confess wrongdoing when there## was none.

The department has decided# that obedience supersedes all else."

Adams had agreed to cooperate with the Trump# administration's immigration crackdown,## which led to the dismissal of his# criminal case.

At least 10 federal## prosecutors in Manhattan and Washington have# now resigned over that case being dropped.

And the Trump administration announced a plan# this afternoon to phase out eight artificial## dyes from the U.S. food supply by the end of# next year.

The petroleum-based additives are## found in many grocery store staples,# from cereals to sports drinks.

But,## today, FDA Commissioner Marty Makary said# it's critical to get them off of shelves.

He cited some studies that found links between# synthetic dyes and neurobehavioral issues in## children.

He called on food manufacturers# to replace them with natural substitutes.

DR. MARTY MAKARY, FDA Commissioner: For the# last 50 years, we have been running one of## the largest uncontrolled scientific experiments# in the world on our nation's children without## their consent.

And, today, we are removing these# petroleum-based chemicals from their food supply.

AMNA NAWAZ: Today's announcement# drew praise from advocates who## say the dyes carry health risks, but# serve no purpose beyond the cosmetic.## The FDA has long maintained that# synthetic dyes are safe for consumption.

Still to come on the "News Hour": we# examine the Trump administration's## claim that student activists are# undercutting U.S. foreign policy;## the Education Department resumes collection# of student debt from borrowers in default;## and a new book chronicles the life of the# trailblazing South Asian actress Merle Oberon.

The U.S. Supreme Court heard# arguments today in a major case## focused on parental rights and public schools.

At the center of the case is a dispute over# curriculum in Montgomery County, Maryland,## a Washington, D.C., suburb.

In 2022, the# county school board adopted a new language## arts curriculum that included books featuring# LGBTQ characters, including a picture book## about a dog who gets lost at a Pride parade# and others featuring transgender children.

Some parents asked for their children to# be opted out from the curriculum because## the books conflicted with their religious beliefs.## The board stopped allowing opt-outs the next# year, arguing they were unmanageable and## undermined their obligation to foster inclusive# environments.

That decision sparked protests and## outrage from some parents in the community,# some of whom were outside the court today.

SVITLANA ROMAN, Montgomery County Parent: We,# on behalf of other parents sharing our faith,## ask the Supreme Court to stand up for the# rights of our children in accordance -- for## us to raise our children in accordance# with our faith and protect them from## instruction on controversial topics that go# against our deeply held religious beliefs.

AMNA NAWAZ: The justices' decision could have# major consequences for public schools nationwide.

To explore today's arguments, I'm joined now by# "News Hour" Supreme Court analyst Marcia Coyle.

Great to see you, Marcia.

MARCIA COYLE: Good to see you, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, before we jump into.. just big picture, what stood out# to you from the arguments today?

MARCIA COYLE: Justice Kavanaugh made a comment.# He said, with religion cases, the court generally## looks for a win-win, meaning both sides come away# with something.

There's -- no one is a big loser.

But my sense was, after today's arguments,# there's no way yet that they found a win-win.## They're looking for a rule, a line to# draw, so that, as Justice Kagan says,## you don't suddenly have opt-outs for everything# in public schools, or, as the parents -- or as## the school board's attorney was asked, why do# you want to die on this hill of no opt-outs?

So the court is struggling here, and I think# it's going to take them a lot of discussion.

AMNA NAWAZ: Unclear where that line is right now.

MARCIA COYLE: Yes, exactly.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well..

I just want to play a part of what Justice Alito# and Justice Jackson had to say on this today.

SAMUEL ALITO, U.S. Supreme Court Associate# Justice: The book has a clear message,## and a lot of people think it's a good message,# and maybe it is a good message, but it's a## message that a lot of people who hold on to# traditional religious beliefs don't agree with.

KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, U.S. Supreme Court# Associate Justice: I guess I'm struggling## to see how it burdens a parent's religious# exercise if the school teach.. that the parent disagrees with.

You have a# choice.

You don't have to send your kid to## that school.

You can put them in another# situation.

You can homeschool them.

How## is it a burden on the parent if they have# the option to send their kid elsewhere?

AMNA NAWAZ: Marcia, what do those# arguments reveal to you about how## they're thinking about this?

And do you# get a sense of which way they're leaning?

MARCIA COYLE: My sense was -- and I hate to# predict on arguments at all -- but my sense## was there may be more sentiment for the# parents here than for the school board.

Justice Alito's comments, he was most# skeptical of the school board and## the books and what the books convey, especially to# pre-K students and kindergarten students,whereas## Justice Jackson was looking at the law here.# Courts have said that exposure of ideas## that -- some may object to# because of their religious## beliefs, that does not violate the free# exercise clause in the First Amendment.

So the court spent most of the# time, well over an hour, discussing,## is this exposure through these books or is# it a burden, is it coercion?

So we're going## back and forth with many hypotheticals about# gay teachers, the books themselves showing a## wedding of two men, and whether they're# just exposing these kids to these ideas.

The school board claims that these books## are really designed to encourage# civility and respect for others.

AMNA NAWAZ: And in those hypotheticals,# sort of leads me to my next question,## which, if the court does rule in# the parents' favor, what are we## talking about in terms of the impact this# could have on public schools nationwide?

MARCIA COYLE: Well, if they# rule in favor of the parents,## certainly, you're going to see more# opt-outs in situations like this.

Now, opt-outs are fairly common in high schools# for certain reasons.

You see them in -- most## often in health classes involving sex education,# obviously.

But as Justice Kagan pointed out, you## might also see opt-outs requested for the teaching# of evolution in biology and other reasons.

But, still, you may see more opt-outs# on the basis of religious beliefs.

For## the school boards too, though,# it could be -- if they lose,## it could be an administrative nightmare.# They say these books are part of the English## language curriculum.

It's not a single# unit like sex education in a health class.

So having kids moving in or out, trying to arrange# when that happens, alternative education plans,## could really create problems for schools.# And Justice Jackson also pointed out that,## if the parents win, she worries that local# control of education is eroded, and you're## going to find judges then deciding what books can# be used -- what kind of books burden religion.

And she didn't think that -- obviously# think that was the right role for judges.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes, Marcia, it's# worth pointing out the court is## hearing another case related to# religion and schools next week.## You have the 6-3 conservative majority that has# backed religious rights arguments in the past.

When you take a step back, what role# is the Roberts court playing when it## comes to religious rights debates in this country?

MARCIA COYLE: Amna, I think that# this is going to be one of the## legacies of the Roberts court since# the chief justice joined in 2005.

You## have three religion cases this term.# They are in very different contexts.

But the Roberts court has shown# a trend of pushing for a greater## government accommodation of religion.# And they have done that by elevating## the free exercise clause over that other# very important clause, the Establishment## Clause and that clause's concerns about# government entanglement with religion.

And I think that's something we will see# a little more dramatically next week when## they take up the religious charter school case.

AMNA NAWAZ: All right, we will# be waiting and watching.

That is## "News Hour"'s Supreme Court analyst, Marcia Coyle.

Marcia, thank you.

Always great to have you here.

MARCIA COYLE: Always a pleasure.

Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT:## Late yesterday, a federal judge ordered# the Justice Department to restore the## revoked visas of a Mexican student# and a British student and issued## a temporary restraining order# preventing their deportations.

It's the latest case of international students# targeted by the Trump administration's crackdown.## According to immigration attorneys, over 1,000# student visas have been revoked this year, as the## Trump State Department argues that some students'# actions threaten U.S. foreign policy interests.

Nick Schifrin has more on the# policy and its implications.

NICK SCHIFRIN: When Mahmoud Khalil,# a Palestinian student activist at## Columbia University, was arrested in early# March, the Justice Department submitted a## brief that included a memo signed# by Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

He wrote -- quote -- "An alien is deportable# from the United States if the secretary of## state has reasonable ground to believe that the# alien's presence or activities in the U.S. would## have potentially serious adverse foreign# policy consequences for the United States."

Rubio wrote that Khalil and another unnamed# fellow green card holder's public actions and## continued presence undermine U.S. policy# to combat antisemitism around the world## and in the United States, in addition# to efforts to protect Jewish students.

It's unclear how many cases the State Department# has invoked foreign policy when it comes to visa## revocations or deportations, but it's# also cited in court documents filed in## the case of Yunseo Chung, a green card# holder originally from South Korea who,## like Khalil, protested the war in# Gaza on Columbia University's campus.

Last month, Rubio said this when asked why# the State Department was taking these steps: MARCO RUBIO, U.S. Secretary of State: I don't# care what movement you're involved in.

Why## would any country in the world allow people to# come and disrupt?

We gave you a visa to come and## study and get a degree, not to become a social# activist that tears up our university campuses.

And if we have given you a visa# and then you decide to do that,## we're going to take it away.

It might# be more than 300 at this point.

We do## it every day.

Every time I find one of# these lunatics, I take away their visa.

NICK SCHIFRIN: To discuss these# visa revocations and attempted## deportations and their link to# foreign policy, we get two views.

Chad Wolf is the executive vice president# of the America First Policy Institute and## the former acting secretary of the Department# of Homeland Security during the first Trump## administration.

And Richard Haass is# the president emeritus of the Council## on Foreign Relations and author of# the weekly Substack Home & Away.

Richard Haass, Chad Wolf, thank you# very much.

Welcome to the "News Hour."

Richard Haass, let me start with you.

Do you believe it is in the# U.S. foreign policy interest## to revoke these visas and possibly# deport these student activists?

RICHARD HAASS, President Emeritus, Council# on Foreign Relations: As a rule, no.

Foreign students, we have about a million# of them in the country right now.

They## contribute to the economy if they stay here.# There's a lot of Fortune 100 companies that## began because of international students.# If they become elites in their country,## then we have pro-American elites.# They also contribute financially to## American colleges and universities.# They're central to the business model.

So I think this is a win-win-win situation.# And I think we interfere with this program## really at our peril.

And coming back to what mar# was saying, if American foreign policy is that## fragile that the comments of a couple of kids on# campuses is going to somehow jeopardize American## foreign policy, then we have got much bigger# problems than a few international students.

Last I checked, we won the Cold War, we won# the Gulf War, and we have had a lot of other## accomplishments in the world, despite# the fact that we have had some critical## voices in international students.

So let's not# overreact to what is a really, really small issue.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Are the comments, Chad Wolf,## are the actions of foreign students# a threat to U.S. foreign policy?

CHAD WOLF, Former Acting U.S. Secretary# of Homeland Security: Well, look,## I think they can be.

Again, we're talking about -- and I think#.. 300 students that he's revoked out of one# million.

So we're not talking about half.## We're talking about less than half of a percent.# DHS certainly has a right to remove students## from the United States.

I think it's important# to remember that a student visa is a benefit## that the United States government provides# that individual to come over here and study.

It's not a right.

You have to adhere to certain# requirements in order to maintain your visa and## stay here in the United States.

And if government# officials like Secretary Rubio determine that## you have violated the requirements of# that student visa, then, absolutely,## if you want to continue to support, openly# support a foreign terrorist organization, well,## guess what?

You're not going to do that from the# United States.

You're going to do it elsewhere.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Richard Haass, take those# points on.

It's a small percentage of## these students.

And as Chad Wolf just said# and as Rubio has alleged, these students## are described as supporting Hamas, even though# they describe themselves as protesting Israel.

RICHARD HAASS: To be critical of Israel does not# make one an antisemite, even to be sympathetic## for various Palestinian movements.

I draw the# line of support for violence, for raising money## for organizations like Hamas.

They cross# that line, we have ways of dealing for it.

Indeed, we have two systems here for# dealing with it.

One is the American## legal system.

If someone crosses lines --# and I would say this would apply to anyone,## an American citizen or an international# student -- we have ways of dealing with it.

But, secondly, the colleges and universities# have their own codes of conduct, and they have## due process they can offer, and then they have# remedies.

But, otherwise, I think we have got to## have a fairly open idea about free speech.

And,# again, American foreign policy can handle even## the jaundiced views, however we might find them# objectionable, of some international students.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Chad Wolf, why# should the U.S. government,## why should the secretary of state be involved in# this, when there are instances of due process of## the courts taking this up, or, in# fact, the universities themselves?

CHAD WOLF: Well, sure, again, this isn't# about free speech.

This is about a line## that is crossed when individuals# -- individuals can go out there## and then criticize President Trump.

They can# criticize any politician for almost any reason.

But when they advocate for support# for a terrorist organization,## that is where I think the majority of the# Americans, certainly President Trump and## his team say that is a line too far.

And# this idea that we're going to let higher## ed kind of police themselves, I think most# Americans would say that's absolutely a joke.

We saw where Columbia and Harvard and all these# folks, they weren't doing anything while Jewish## students were absolutely afraid to go out# of their dorms and onto these campuses.

It's## been clear that these schools cannot police# themselves.

So don't think that this is the## first time that we're removing students out# of the U.S.

It's certainly not.

Obviously,## these are higher-profile cases, so# they're garnering a lot more attention.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Richard Haass, is there a# question of these campuses being able to do this?

RICHARD HAASS: Well, after October 7,# 2023, I think we saw in many campuses,## including Columbia, that the universities were# not handling it right.

And the interests and## rights and safety of Jewish students and other# students, for that matter, was compromised.

Since then, there's been an awful# lot of learning and an awful lot of## reform on campuses.

The question# that where the line to be drawn,## at what point does anti-Zionism become# antisemitism, that's a big conversation.## And it's not necessarily one I think the secretary# of state ought to be spending his time working on.

Again, that I think is for campuses.# And it's really a larger conversation## in this country about what is# legitimate criticism of Israel## and where does criticism of Israel cross# the line and it becomes illegitimate?

NICK SCHIFRIN: And finally, Chad# Wolf, in the time we have left,## are there any questions for you on due process# in this case?

Khalil, some of these othe.. are specifically named by Rubio have said# that they themselves committed no violence,## they don't support Hamas, they were# only protesting Israeli actions.

CHAD WOLF: What I have found in many of these# cases is there's more information that's not in## the public domain, the background on these# individuals, what they did in their home## countries, their associations, and other things# that are at play here that U.S. law enforcement## is looking at, DHS is looking at, as they take# these certain actions to remove these individuals.

There's a lot of work that goes into each of# these.

It's not just, hey, we see someone making## public comments on TV.

Let's go remove them.

But,# surely, if anyone questions that, they should## have their right to say, hey, you're saying this# person needs to be removed.

I'm not that person.

I think in that call, it is the# federal government's call to make.

CHAD WOLF: Again, it's a benefit.

Again,# no one's entitled to a student visa.

The## United States, like any other country,# provides you a benefit to come here.

And we expect certain -- you# to meet certain requirements## of that student visa.

And if you choose not to,## then it should be the United States federal# government's position to be able to remove you.

NICK SCHIFRIN: Chad Wolf, Richard# Haass, thank you very much.

GEOFF BENNETT: Policies of the# Trump administration are having## a separate effect on higher ed,# namely, student loans and debt.

Next month, the Department of Education will# resume collections of defaulted student loans,## ending a five-year pause that began during the# pandemic.

As part of the process, the government## will withhold tax refunds or Social Security and# garnish wages to recover the debt.

Right now,## more than five million borrowers are already# in default, with millions more at risk.

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel covers higher education## for The Washington Post and joins# us now.

It's great to have you here.

So, help us understand why the administration# is making this change and why now.

DANIELLE DOUGLAS-GABRIEL, The# Washington Post: So, honestly,## this was always the plan.

When .. they had ended a number of programs that had# really kind of softened the return to repayment.

Now, if you recall, the student loans resumed# back in 2023.

Then the Biden administration## gave borrowers an additional 12-month grace# period, whereby, if you were to miss a payment## or be late on a payment, it wouldn't count# against you.

That was over in September 2024.

And I think now we're starting to see the# consequences of the end of that grace period.## A lot of borrowers I have spoken with in# the last couple of months have said that## they weren't even aware that student loans had# fully gone back into repayment.

And so many## of them accidentally missed payments for several# months.

At least that's what they're saying to me.

And now we're starting to see the consequences of# that.

I think around February, you were starting## to hear about people whose credit scores guarded# to drop because the department had to and student## loan servicers that managed the loans had to# report their late payments to the credit bureaus.

And so there are about four million people who# are 90 days past due on their student loans.## And so there's a real fear right# now that many of those people,## if there isn't an intervention and they# don't start making payments or find a## plan that they could afford, they could go# into full-blown default later this year.

And if that were to happen, and they're past# a full year of not making payments, well,## that's when you start to see things like the# government garnishing your wages.

That's when## they can start seizing your tax refund, seizing# Social Security benefits.

And certainly we don't## want to see that for any American, especially# because the consequences are so severe.

And people are really worried about# their economic status at this stage.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, I was going to ask you# when the collections will officially resume,## but it sounds like it started already.

DANIELLE DOUGLAS-GABRIEL: Certainly,## at least the repor.. And that's like the first couple of stages.

There# are many stages of being delinquent on your loans## before you hit full-blown default.

Usually, the# government considers you in default by 270 days.## They start reporting you full-fledged in 360# days.

But before that, if you are 60 days past## due or 90 days past due, you will start# to see the effects on your credit score,## which can make it difficult to get a mortgage,# get a car loan or even rent an apartment.

GEOFF BENNETT: And, Danielle, because of the# Trump administration's prior dismantling of the## Education Department, we are hearing accounts# of borrowers having a hard time getting in## touch with a real person at the department# if they have questions about their loans.

Based on your reporting, what can people do?

DANIELLE DOUGLAS-GABRIEL: I mean, that# has been a serious challenge.

Certainly,## your first line of defense is contacting your# student loan servicer.

These are companies## like Nelnet, Mohela, contractors# that work for the department.

But they're going to be inundated with calls,# I expect.

And the Department of Education,## the Federal Student Aid Office,# has kind of been the backup here,## where borrowers can call if they have# complaints.

But as a part of the Trump## administration's efforts to close the Department# of Education, a lot of the people who worked## at the Federal Student Aid Office have# left, lost their jobs or just resigned.

GEOFF BENNETT: And, lastly,# on a separate topic, today,## more than 180 leaders of higher education from# around the country released a joint statement## condemning the administration's# efforts to control universities.

And part of the letter reads this way:## "We are open to constructive reform and do# not oppose legitimate government oversight.## However, we must oppose undue government# intrusion in the lives of those who learn,## live and work on our campuses.

We must reject# the coercive use of public research funding."

And this, of course, is a day after Harvard# sued the Trump administration over the## decision to freeze billions of dollars in# federal funds.

What are the implications## of the Trump administration's confrontations# with colleges and universities for funding,## for campus climate and the role of# higher education in our democracy?

DANIELLE DOUGLAS-GABRIEL: I think there's# a real threat and a real concern that the## administration's efforts could undo years# of research advancements and really set## the United States back in its role of being a# leading-edge place for innovation, which -- and## that innovation has come at our research# universities, many of which are the subject## of these sorts of investigations for not doing# enough to curtail antisemitism on their campuses.

And there are real concerns# about rising antisemitism## across the country.

Many of these# schools have enumerated the steps## that they're taking to try to fix# this, but the administration's tactics## have left a lot of institutions fearful# that there is no real way to satisfy them.

If you look at what happened with Columbia,# Columbia tried to negotiate in good faith with## the administration and still did not receive the# $400 million in research funding that was frozen.

And I think, after Harvard made the decision# to rebuke the administration's demands and## then ultimately filed this lawsuit earlier this# week, you have seen a lot more university leaders## willing to speak up and say that they are not# going to let the federal government tell them## what to teach, who to hire, or how they have# to conduct the business of their universities,## because it would be detrimental to the# U.S.' standing within higher education.

GEOFF BENNETT: Danielle Douglas-Gabriel# of The Washington Post, always a pleasure## to speak with you.

Thanks for being with us.

DANIELLE DOUGLAS-GABRIEL: Thank you so much.

AMNA NAWAZ:#As the first Asian and only South Asian actress# to be nominated for a best actress Oscar,## Merle Oberon's place in the pantheon# of cinema is historic, but it came## with enormous sacrifice.

For decades, Oberon# had to hide her race to stay working in film.

I recently spoke with writer Mayukh# Sen whose new book, "Love, Queenie:## Merle Oberon, Hollywood's First South Asian# Star," chronicles Oberon's rise to fame,## her groundbreaking career, and# eventual fade from the spotlight.

It's part of our arts and culture series, Canvas.

Mayukh, welcome to the "News# Hour."

Thanks for being here.

MAYUKH SEN, Author, "Love, Queenie: Me... First South Asian Star": Thank you for having me, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: So before we dive into the details# of Mer.. came to be.

I mean, what was it about her# and her story that made you want to dig in?

MAYUKH SEN: So I have always been fascinated by# Merle Oberon ever since I first encountered her,## which was all the way back in the summer of 2009.

I was a rising senior in high school and# I was obsessed with the Oscars.

And I## learned that she had been the first# Asian actress who was nominated for## an Academy Award for acting all the way# back in 1936.

And then I learned that she## had grown up in the city of Kolkata,# which is where my father was from.

And so, ever since then, I have really wanted to## tell her story.

And there hasn't been a# proper biography of her in over 40 years.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

MAYUKH SEN: So I told myself, you know what, I think it's time for me to just take this# project on and try to do her story justice.

AMNA NAWAZ: And the story that most people# knew about her as she was making her way## through Hollywood was that she was a British# actress, that she was born in Tasmania,## that she was raised in India, then brought# to England.

That's the story she told people.

What was the truth about her life?

MAYUKH SEN: So something that emerged in the years# after her death in.. despite posturing before the public# eye as this white Tasmanian-born woman,## was in fact born into poverty in the# city that was then known as Bombay,## now Mumbai, India, to a South# Asian mother and a white father.

And she spent the first 18 years of her life# in India living through poverty.

And it was## only after she went to England in 1929 that# this fictitious backstory was created for her## by studios that she was actually a white# woman born in Tasmania.

And that is a lie## that would stick with her throughout the# entirety of her life, at least publicly.

AMNA NAWAZ: What did it mean to grow up# mixed-race in India in the early 1900s?

MAYUKH SEN: Yes.

So Merle Oberon, she was born as Queenie# Thomson in India, right?

And many Anglo-Indians,## Merle Oberon included, grew up having to deal# with intense social discrimination because the## fact that they were essentially neither here nor# there.

They didn't easily assimilate into the## wider South Asian population and they were also# almost always rejected by white British folks.

AMNA NAWAZ: And the context for# when she comes to the United States,## as you point out in the book, is, again, one of# real overt racism towards South Asians, right?

There was an immigration act that barred South# Asians from entry.

Hollywood had a code in## place that barred any interracial romance# on screen.

You write in the book that her## identity was a secret she guarded with her life.

What would have happened if people had found out?

MAYUKH SEN: So her career would have# been completely destroyed had people## known that she was in fact a mixed-race# girl who was born into poverty in India.

The Hays Code, which was instituted in# 1934, which is coincidentally the same## year that Merle Oberon first arrives in# America, for example, one of its edicts## barred the depiction of interracial romance,# which was defined in the text as being between## black and white races, but produced such# a chilling effect that it also affected## the opportunities for non-Black people# of color, including Merle Oberon.

So had people known that she was# actually mixed race and South Asian,## she would not have been able# to play any leading roles.

AMNA NAWAZ: And she does land some roles, right?# She stars opposite of Laurence Olivier as Cathy## in "Wuthering Heights," as Anne Boleyn# in "The Private Life of Henry VIII."

How does she hide her identity?# What does she have to do?

MAYUKH SEN: I mean, it requires enormous# sacrifice.

First, she's armed with this## backstory that was created for her all the way# back in 1932 by a company called London Films.## They're the ones that, you know what, we're going# to give you this fictitious backstory that will## essentially deflect any sort of curiosity# or speculation about your heritage, right?

And alongside that, she has to endure# so many terrible and torturous, frankly,## beauty regimens.

When she was making the# 1935 film "The Dark Angel," which is the## film for which she received her historic# best actress nomination, she had to undergo## an entire day of skin bleaching because studio# crew essentially thought that she was too dark.

And this is something that she had to go through# routinely as she was making films in Hollywood.

AMNA NAWAZ: What kind of# impact did that take on her,## not just on her career, but her# personally, psychologically?

MAYUKH SEN: I mean, I think that it really# incurred such a deep psychological cost on her.

And what I found as I was writing# my book and really spending a lot## of time with the archives and her# personal papers is that she was## essentially in this dance between# having to deny who she was in## public while in private still keeping in# touch with her family members from India.

And that sort of tension, I think, really# reached a boiling point later in her life.

AMNA NAWAZ: You write also in the book that the## words forgotten and overlooked get thrown# around rather indiscriminately thes.. but they apply to Merle.

Why do you say# that?

What do you think her legacy is today?

MAYUKH SEN: When it comes to conversations# about Asian identity in America,## so often I find people fixate on East# Asian or Southeast Asian identity,## not necessarily South Asian identity,# which is what Merle's story represents.

Alongside that, I would say the fact# that she's mixed race has sometimes## disqualified her from these conversations# about representation.

And then, of course,## you add to the fact that she passed as# white and she had to deny her heritage.

But I do find that, in terms of Merle's legacy,# what she was really fighting for, whether she## was conscious of it or not, was an entertainment# ecosystem in which people, especially performers## of color, did not have the roles that were# available to them dictated purely by their race.

This was a South Asian woman# who grew up in poverty,## who went on to play Cathy in "Wuthering# Heights," this canonically white role.

MERLE OBERON, Actress: Heathcliff,# make the world stop right here.

MAYUKH SEN: She was a leading lady and# a box office draw and a total star in## the '30s and '40s.

And I do think that# there's so many South Asian performers## working today who are indebted to# her, whether they realize it or not.

AMNA NAWAZ: The book is "Love,# Queenie."

The author is Mayukh Sen.

Thank you so much for being here.

It's# such a pleasure to speak with you.

MAYUKH SEN: Thank you, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ:#And, remember, there's a lot more online,# including a look at what President Trump's## tariffs could mean for auto manufacturers# and consumers.

That is at PBS.org/NewsHour.

GEOFF BENNETT: And join us again here tomorrow# night, when Judy Woodruff travels to Springfield,## Ohio, once an immigration flash point,# still dealing with the national scrutiny.

And that is the "News Hour"# for tonight.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

And on behalf of the entire "News# Ho..