>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

TOOK IN A MAJOR BLOW TO THEWORLD ECONOMY.

ADVERSARIES REACT.

CHECK IN I SEEK WITH THEGERMANFOREIGN MINISTER, ANNALENABAERBOCK.

> >> THEN, CHIMAMANDA NGOZIADICHIE, IS BACK WITH HERBOOK, "DREAM COUNT".

> >> MORE FALLOUT FROM THESIGNAL HEARD AROUND THE WORLD.

WALTER TALKS ABOUT THEACCIDENTALLY INVITEDJOURNALISTS,JEFFREY GOLDBERG.

> >>AMANPOUR & CO IS MADEPOSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSONFAMILY AND ALMA.

JIM ATWOOD ANDLESLIE WILLIAMS.

SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTAPROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLAAND MICKEY STRAUSS.

THE SILLIMAN ANDD'AGOSTINOFOUNDATION.

PETE BUTTIGIEG G PETERSON ANDJOAN GANTZ CONEYFUN.

COO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURALDIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOURPBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKEYOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR INLONDON.

THE WORLD IS IN A TRADE WAR.

THE WHITE HOUSE IMPOSED TARIFFSOF AT LEAST 10% ACROSS EVERYCOUNTRY WITH THE STEEPER RATESON THOSE HAVINGA HIGHERTRADEDEFICIT WITH THE U. S. ONEECONOMIST SAID WE HAVE WE HAVENOT RUN THIS EXPERIMENT INLIVING MEMORY.

CHINA WHICH ISHARDEST HITBECAUSE THERE TARIFFSUNILATERAL BULLYING.

U. S. ALLIES ARE NOT EXEMPT.

THE EU WAS SLAPPED WITH 20%.

HERE IS THEGERMAN CHANCELLOR.

>> I BELIEVE THE LATESTDECISION BY THE U. S. PRESIDENTAREFUNDAMENTALLY WRONG.

THE TRADE ORDERIS ESSENTIALLY--THE GLOBAL ECONOMYWILLSUFFER.

>> ILL CONSIDEREDDECISION,ANALYSTS PREDICT HIGHER PRICESACROSS THE U. S. FOR THEDOWPLUNGED 1500 POINTS ON OPENINGMARKETS AROUNDTHE WORLD, FELLSHARPLY.

THE RESPONSE FROM THE WHITEHOUSE, WEGOT THIS.

>>TO ANYONE ON WALL STREET,TRUST IN PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THIS PRESIDENT IS DOUBLING DOWNON HIS PROVEN ECONOMIC FORMULAFROM HIS FIRST TERM.

WE SAW WAGES INCREASE.

WE SAW INFLATION COME DOWN.

>> LET DONALD TRUMPRUN THEGLOBAL ECONOMY.

HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING, HE'SBEEN TALKING ABOUT OVER 35YEARS BUT YOU HAVE TO TRUSTHIM.

>> HE IS BETTING BIG THAT HISVOTERS WILL TAKE THE PAIN FORTHEGREATER GAIN.

AS THE WORLD STRUGGLES TORESPOND, EVEN THE METHODOLOGYAND MATH DO NOT ADD UP.

ONE OF THE WORLDS POORESTCOUNTRIES FACES A 50% LEVY.

EVENTHIS OBSCURE UNINHABITEDISLAND SOMEHOW MADE THE LIST.

GERMANY'S FOREIGNMINISTER, ISAT NATO HEADQUARTERS.

SHE JOINED ME FROM THERE WITHTHE MESSAGE THAT EUROPE DOESHAVEECONOMIC POWER.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON YOURSHOW AGAIN.

>> ARE YOUIN SHOCK?

I MEAN, IT JUST SEEMS LIKETHEWHOLE WORLD HASN'T SLEPT AROUNDWITH THESE TARIFFS, INCLUDINGEUROPE.

UP TO 20%.

WHAT IS YOUR IMMEDIATEREACTION?

>> THIS IS NOT A GOOD DAY FORWORLD ECONOMY AND DEFINITELYNOT A DAY OF LIBERATION FORAMERICAN CONSUMERS.

RATHER, A DAY OF INFLATION.

FOR EUROPEANS, IT'S A DAY OFUNITY.

WE HAVE SET UP IN THE PASTTHREE YEARS MEASURES TO PROTECTOUR PEOPLE, TOPROTECT OURECONOMY,OUR JOBS,TO CHINA.

WITH OUR ECONOMY THEY WERETHREATENING FREE TRADE.

WE SETUP MEASURES.

WE BELIEVE INFREE TRADE AND WEBELIEVE IN PARTNERSHIP.

THIS ISWHY THE PRESIDENT MADECLEAR THAT WE DO NOT WANT TOTRADE WAR.

EVERYBODY WOULD SUFFER FROM ATRADE WAR ANDTHE ONLY ACTORSWHO WOULD WIN, WOULD BE THOSEFIGHTING THE FREE WORLD.

IN CASE THE FREE-TRADE IS NOTPOSSIBLE WITH SOME BEST FRIENDSAND BEST PARTNERS ANYMORE, WEARE PREPARED TOPROTECTOURSELVES.

WE HAVE SHOWN THAT WEARE NATOALLIES, SECURITY ALLIES, THENATO TREATY, THERE'SAPARAGRAPH IN THE BEGINNINGSAYING FREE ECONOMY BETWEENPARTNERSIS SECURING OURECONOMY.

I BELIEVE WORKING TOGETHER ISTHE BEST ANSWER IN THESE DAYSWITH THE ROOSTERS NEST ISTAKINGOVER AND DEMOCRACIESHAVE TO BE STRONG TOGETHER.

>> THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

ESPECIALLY AS YOU MENTIONEDNATO ASPECT.

YOU WERE AT A MEETINGINBRUSSELS.

YOUR NORWEGIAN COUNTERPART SAIDTHE ACTION FROM THE U. S. COULDVIOLATE THAT, ARTICLE 2, OFNATO.

IT CALLS FOR A COMMON ECONOMICSTRENGTH POLICY.

IN AMERICA, PEOPLE LIKETHECOMMERCE SECRETARY,LED NECK,THE WHITE HOUSE SPOKESPERSON,THEY ARE BASICALLY SAYING TOTRUST DONALD TRUMP.

THEY SAY TO LET DONALD TRUMPRUN THE WORLD ECONOMY.

HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING.

DOES THISREASSURE YOU?

>> WE KNOW THAT IN THESE TIMESOF SOCIAL MEDIA, OFQUICK NEWS,THE QUESTION OF WHAT YOUBELIEVE IS A DIFFICULTQUESTION.

IT IS INHUMAN NATURE.

YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU AREFEELING YOURSELF.

IF WE ARELOOKING AT THE PAST,IT IS A PARTNERSHIP FROM THEFREE WORLD DEMOCRACIES, WE AREHAVING AT THE NATO MEETING,GUESTSFROM THE INDO-PACIFIC,AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, JAPAN,KOREA, EUROPEANS IN THE LASTYEAR, IT WAS THOSEPARTNERSFREE-TRADE AGREEMENTS,WE HADRAW MATERIALS IN THE PAST THATWENT FROM AUSTRALIATO CHINA.

CHINA WAS THREATENING USEUROPEANS TO SELL THEM VERYEXPENSIVE TOWARD EUROPE.

WE HAVE UNDERSTOODAND LEARNEDFROM AMERICANS THAT THE BESTPROTECTION FOR OURSELVES, IF WEHAVE FREE TRADE WITHOURPARTNERS.

WE JUST STARTED AN AGREEMENTWITH AUSTRALIA.

THIS MAKES US ALTOGETHERSTRONGER.

I DEEPLY BELIEVE THAT INASITUATION WHERE PARTNERS AREWORKING AGAINST EACH OTHER, THEONLY ACTORS WHO WILL WIN INTHEEND, THOSE WHO WERE FIGHTING.

FREE DEMOCRACIES ANDFREETRADE.

THEREFORE, WE BELIEVE THE BESTTHING IS TO WORK AS PARTNERSTOGETHER IN THESE TIMES.

STOMACHTHE AMERICANS, THETREASURY SECRETARY TOLD CNN, IURGE EUROPE, I URGE OTHERCOUNTRIES, NOT TO RETALIATE.

I WONDER HOW YOU TAKE THAT?

HAVE YOU MENTIONED HOW YOU FEELAND WHAT YOUMIGHT DO TO THEU.

S. SECRETARY OF STATE, MARCORUBIO, WHO IS AT THE MEETINGSWITH YOU NOW AT NATOHEADQUARTERS?

>> WE HAVE MENTIONEDTHATEUROPEANS FEEL A BIT OF PITYFOR AMERICAN CONSUMERS.

ALL OF THEPRODUCTS --NUDGESEUROPEAN COUNTRIES BY FROM THEINDO-PACIFIC, THEYHAVE ALSOHAVE NEW TRADE TARIFFS.

THE TRADE TARIFFSARE ACTUALLYONAMERICAN CONSUMERS.

AS I KNOW, MANY AMERICANS LIKETHE BEEFFROM AUSTRALIA, ITWILL NOW COST AN EXTRA10%.

OTHER PROJECT YOU CANNOTPRODUCE IN THE UNITED STATESWILL COST AN EXTRA 20% OR 35%.

I DO NOT REALLY GETTHE LOGICTO HARMAMERICAN CONSUMERS.

THIS IS WHY FOR OUR OWNCONSUMERS, WE SAY IT WOULDBE AWIN/WIN, SITUATION IF CONSUMERSIN DEMOCRACIES, BETWEENFRIENDS, OVER THE ATLANTIC, THEU.

S. , EUROPE, PAYLESSPRICESPOSSIBLE.

WHERE PRODUCTS COULD BEPRODUCED.

IT WOULD BEA WIN/WIN.

IF WE WOULD GO INTO A TRADEWAR, IT WOULD BE A LOSE/LOSESITUATION FOR ALL CONSUMERSOVER THE ATLANTIC.

I CANNOT SAY THAT OFTEN ENOUGH.

IN COUNTRIES WHICH ARE NOTHAVING FREE ECONOMY ANDTHESTATE CAN DICTATE THE PRICES,THEY WILL BE THEWINNERS.

WHY SHOULD WE MAKE SYSTEMS TOWINNERS WHO OPPOSE THEFREEWORLD?

>> LET ME FOLLOW UP, YOU AREFACING A REAL ISSUEWITH PUTINWHO IS OPPOSING THE FREE WORLDWITH THE THREE PLUS WARWITHUKRAINE.

AS YOU KNOW HE HASSENT HIS MAYNEGOTIATORTO WASHINGTON.

THEY HAVE BEEN TALKING.

WE DO NOT KNOW THE RESULTS.

HAVE YOU HEARD FROM YOURAMERICANCOLLEAGUE, RUBIO?

HOW ARE THE TALKS GOING, HOW DOYOU SEE THE COMMUNICATION SOFAR BETWEEN THE UNITED STATESAND PUTIN HELPING TO RESOLVETHE WAR?

WHAT ISYOUR ASSESSMENT OF THISPOINT?

>> IT WAS A BIG SUCCESS WITHTHE TALKSDUE TO THE U. S. ADMINISTRATION.

FOR THE FIRST TIMETHE WORD,"PEACE", WAS ON THE TABLEFROMTHE RUSSIAN SIDE.

UKRAINIANS IMMEDIATELY SAID WEWANT ACEASE-FIRE NOW.

A CONDITIONAL CEASE-FIREBECAUSE UKRAINIANS ARE WISHINGFOR PEACE FOR THREE YEARS.

UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE SEEN THATPUTIN IS PLAYINGTIME AND HEOBVIOUSLY IS FOOLINGTHE WORLD.

I HAVE JUST BEEN TO UKRAINEMYSELF AND TO MOLDOVA IN THELAST TWO DAYS, WHILE I WAS INTRENCH 1A, THEREHAS BEEN ARUSSIAN ATTACK ONENERGYINFRASTRUCTURE.

PUTIN PROMISED ALSO TO THEAMERICAN TEAM THAT HE WILLNOTATTACK ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHY THE FOREIGN MINISTER WASTHERE, THERE WAS AN ATTACK.

I WAS SPEAKING INKYIV TOCHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN DEPORTEDFROM UKRAINE TO RUSSIA.

I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERLINE IF ANACTOR LIKE PUTIN IS SPEAKINGABOUT PEACE, THE FIRST STEP FORPEACE WOULD BE TO RETURN ALL OFTHE DEPORTED CHILDREN.

ITIS ESTIMATED, 20,000CHILDREN.

SOUTH AFRICA, BRAZIL, THEGULFCOUNTRIES.

ALWAYS PUSHINGON PUTINTHATTHE FIRST STEP OF TRUSTBUILDING WOULD BE TO RETURN THEINNOCENT CHILDREN.

SO FAR THE OPPOSITE ISHAPPENING AGAIN.

THIS IS WHY IT WAS IMPORTANTOVER HERE AT THE NATOHEADQUARTERS, WHERE I AM RIGHTNOW WITH MY NATO COLLEAGUES ANDFRIENDS FROM THE INDO-PACIFIC.

WE ALL AGREED THAT PEACE WILLONLY HAPPEN THROUGH THREATS.

PUTIN WILL ONLYGIVE UPDESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEANPEACE ORDER AND DESTRUCTION OFCIVILIZATION IN UKRAINE WHENHEUNDERSTANDS THAT HE CANNOT WINTHIS WAR.

THIS IS WHY WE EUROPEANS LIFTEDOUR ENGAGEMENT FOR UKRAINE OVERTHE LAST COUPLE OFWEEKS,EUROPE IS STANDING FOR PEACE.

WE MOBILIZED AN EXTRAAá20BILLION IN THE LAST WEEKS FORUKRAINE TO UNDERLINE THAT WEWANT PEACE.

WE STAND WITH UKRAINE IFPUTINCONTINUES DESTRUCTION OF THEEUROPEAN PEACE ORDER.

>> THE PRESIDENT OF FINLANDSPENT TIME WITHPRESIDENT TRUMPPLAYING GULF AND TALKING ABOUTTHESE ISSUES.

HE TOLD THE WORLD THAT IT LOOKSLIKE THE AMERICANS ARE GETTINGFRUSTRATED WITH PUTIN, HAVINGGIVEN HIM EVERYTHING VERBALLY.

HAVING INSULTED PRESIDENTZELENSKYY.

TAKINGTHE KREMLIN TALKINGPOINTS ON THE WAR, SHIFTINGAWAY FROM THE ALLIES AND TOWARDPUTIN.

NOW THEY ARE MAYBE BEGINNING TOREALIZE HE IS DRAGGINGHISFEET.

DO YOU THINK, WHAT HAS MARCORUBIO SAID IN YOUR NATOMEETING?

DO THEY THINK THEY CANACTUALLYKNOW --NEGOTIATE WITH PUTIN?

DO THEY THINK THEY'RE BEINGPLAYED?

DO THEY UNDERSTAND?

>> THE SECRETARY UNDERLINEDHERE WHAT HE UNDERLINED AT THEG7 MEETING TWO WEEKS AGOINCANADA.

NATO IS THE MOST SUCCESSFULDEFENSE ALLIANCE IN THE WHOLEWORLD FOR75 YEARS.

ONE FOR ALL, ALL FOR ONE, MADECLEAR IN THE WORLD WE ARESTANDING FOR PEACE ANDFREEDOMALTOGETHER.

THEREFORE, ESPECIALLY IN THESECRITICAL TIMES WHERE EVERYBODYIS WATCHING, WHETHER IT ISLIPSERVICE WHERE RUSSIANAGGRESSION HAS BEEN FORCED ALLOVER EUROPE, WE STAND TOTHISCREDO.

MAKING IT VERY CLEAR THAT IFANAGGRESSOR WINDS A WAR OFAGGRESSION, THIS WOULD JUST BEA MOTIVATION FOR OTHERAGGRESSORS IN THE WORLD.

IF NATO WANTS TO KEEPTHISIMPORTANT ROAD OF BEING THESTRONGEST DETERRENT AND DEFENSEALLIANCE AS WE HAVE BEEN THELAST 75 YEARS, WE HAVE TO BECRYSTAL CLEAR THATPUTIN ANDHIS WARPROGRESSION CANNOT GOTHROUGH THISALLIANCE.

OBVIOUSLY THEUNITED STATES WASSTAY IN NATO.

THIS ISA COMMONALLIANCETOGETHER.

IN SELF INTEREST, IT IS THEMOST IMPORTANT THING TOSTRENGTHEN NATO ANDALSOUKRAINE SO THAT PUTIN WILL NOTWIN THIS WAR.

AT THE MOMENT, PUTIN'S RUSSIAIS THE BIGGEST SECURITY THREATFOR THETRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCEREAD NOT ONLY FOR EUROPE, BUTFOR THE ALLIANCE IN TOTAL.

THEREFORE ALSO FOR THEWORLDWIDE PEACEORDER.

> >> ISRAEL AND GAZA, THE WARSTUFFED UP TO FEROCIOUS LEVELSAS BEFORETHE CEASE-FIRE.

HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ARE BEINGKILLED, INCLUDING CHILDREN, ANDWOMEN.

ASIEGE OF INTERNATIONAL AID,FOOD AND MEDICINE EATING TOACTUALPEOPLE THERE.

WHAT IS RUBIO SAYING ABOUT THATAND WHAT CAN YOU AS EUROPEANSDO ABOUT THAT?

ON ONE HAND YOU GIVE THEU.

S. THAT PALESTINIANS CAN MOVE OUTAND YOU HEAR THAT EGYPT ANDGAZAEXTENDED CEASE-FIRE.

WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT WILLHAPPEN NEXT.

DO YOU KNOW?

>> WHAT WE KNOW FOR SUREISTHAT BRINGING OUT THE HOSTAGESOF THE HANDSOF THE HAMAS, ISTHE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

THE MOST SUCCESSFUL WAY WAS AMOMENT OF CEASE-FIRE.

IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS WARMANY HOSTAGESCAME OUT IN AMOMENT OF NON-SHOOTING.

AGAIN, WITH AMERICANHELP ANDDUE TO AMERICAN NEGOTIATIONS,WITHIN THE CEASE-FIRE, HOSTAGESCOULD'VE BEEN FREED.

THE SECOND AND THIRDPHASE OFTHE CEASE-FIRENEGOTIATIONDEAL, THE WITHDRAWAL FROM THEIDF.

TO FREE ALL HOSTAGES THE STEPSHAVE TO BE TAKEN.

THE CEASE-FIRES ARE HEAVILYNEEDED.

THERE ARE SO HOSTAGES WITHGERMAN CITIZENSHIP.

IAM IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITHTHE HOSTAGE FAMILIES AND THEYARE CALLING FOR THE CEASE-FIRETO HAVE A CHANCE THAT THEY CANGET BACK TO THE LOVED ONES.

THEREFORE, EUROPE ISSTANDINGFOR THE CEASE-FIRE.

WE ARE CALLING FOR THE CEASE-FIRE.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT PEOPLE INGAZA, CIVILIANS, ARE CALLING ONHAMAS.

THEY ARE PROTESTING AGAINSTHAMAS.

HAMAS HAS TO BE GONE,OBVIOUSLY.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE WORKING ONFOR MONTHS.

WITH FURTHER DESTRUCTIONGOINGON , YOU HAD A DOCTOR ON YOURSHOW REPORTING ABOUT THECHILDREN, WE COULD JUSTEVACUATE.

A GIRL WITH GERMAN RELATIONSFROM THEGAZAN STRIP HASLOSTALL SIBLINGS.

SHE LOST HER FATHER.

SHE LOST AN ARM AND A LEG.

IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION, WENEED A CEASE-FIREFOR THEHUMANITARIAN SITUATIONIN GAZA.

TO GET ALL OF THE HOSTAGES OUTOF THE HANDS OF HAMAS.

WE MADE IT CLEAR HERE ASEUROPEANS THAT WE ARE EXTREMELYWORRIED THAT WITH FURTHERESCALATION OF THE LAST DAYS,THE CHANCE FOR PEACE WILL MOVEFURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY.

THIS IS IN THE INTEREST OF THESTATE OFISRAEL.

>> ANNALENA BAERBOCK, THANK YOUFOR JOINING US.

> >> THE LONG-AWAITED RETURN TOFICTION FOR NOVELIST,CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE.

A LITERALLY --LITERALPHENOMENON.

HER LONGFORM ESSAY, WE SHOULDALL BE FEMINISTS WASEQUALLYINFLUENTIAL.

EVEN QUOTED A BEYONCE TRACK.

12 YEARS AFTER HER LAST NOVEL,SHE IS BACK WITH NEWWORK.

IT IS CALLED, "DREAM COUNT".

IT TELLS THE STORY OF FOURCLOSELY LINKED WOMEN AS THEYGRAPPLE WITH A TRAUMATIC EVENTTHAT RIPPLES ACROSS THEIRLIVES.

ITTAKES ON KEY CULTURAL THEMESWHILE SWEEPING US UP IN ITSUNFORGETTABLE STORY.

CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE ISJOINING US FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME BACK.

>> THANK YOU,SO MUCH.

IN 10 YEARS, LONGER THAN 10YEARS, WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG?

I READ IN SOME REVIEWS THAT YOUSPEND A LOT OF TIME WRITINGSCRUNCHEDUP ON AN OTTOMAN INYOUR BEDROOM EVEN THOUGH YOUHAD A DESK NEARBY.

WHAT IS THE PROCESS?

>> I THINK SOMETIMES CREATIVITYREQUIRES STRANGENESS.

ONE HAS TO BOW TO THE DEMANDSOF CREATIVITY.

SERIOUSLY, I HAVE A DESK AND ASTUDY BUTIS SOMEHOW WORKSBETTER WHEN I AMPHYSICALLYUNCOMFORTABLE.

I AM A SLOW WRITER.

I ALWAYS HAVEBEEN.

HAVE BECOME SLOWER WITH AGE.

ONE OF THE BLESSINGS OF GETTINGOLDER.

IT'S BEEN 12 YEARS BECAUSE IHAD THE EXPRESSIONYOU DISLIKE,I HAVE WRITERS BLOCK.

FOR MANY YEARS.

I COULD NOTWRITE FICTION.

FICTION IS MY VOCATION, THELOVE OF MY LIFE.

IT IS WHAT GIVES ME MEANING.

WHEN I COULD NOT WRITE FOR ALLTHOSE YEARS, IT WAS A REALLYFRIGHTENING AND TERRIBLE PLACETO BE.

>> YOU DID WRITENONFICTION.

YOU WROTE, TREATIES ON GRIEF,WHEN YOUR FATHER DIED.

YOU DID THE TED TALK, ANDAWHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER THINGS.

I'M NOT SUREWHEN THAT CAMEOUT?

YOUR MOTHER ALSO DIED AND YOUDEVOTED THIS BOOK TO HER.

HAVE YOU FIGURED OUT WHYSOMEBODY WITH SUCH PROLIFICABILITY, WHY YOU HADWRITERSBLOCK?

>> I HAVE NOT FIGURED IT OUT.

I DON'T THINKANYONE HAS.

I SAY THIS TO MYSELF TO COPE,IF CREATIVITYIS IMPORTANT ANDMEANINGFUL, MAYBE IT SHOULD NOTBE EASY.

I THINK PART OF THE CREATIVEPROCESS IS THAT SOMETIMES YOUHAVEDRY SPELLS.

FOR ME, FICTION WRITING IS VERYDIFFERENT FROM NONFICTION.

I CAN WRITE NONFICTION FAIRLYEASY, I THINK?

FICTION ISMORE MAGICAL.

FICTION, I DO NOT HAVE CONTROLOVER, IF THAT MAKES SENSE?

I COULD DO NONFICTION, I COULDNOT WRITE NONFICTION.

I FELT THAT I WAS SEPARATEDFROM MYSELF.

I THINK THAT NONFICTION ISVERYIMPORTANT, BUT, IT DOES NOTHAVE THE MAGIC AND MEANING THATFICTION DOES.

>> THIS NOVELIS ABOUT FOURFRIENDS, RIGHT?

IT IS THE STORY THROUGH FOURDIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW.

I WILL LIST THEM SO WE ALLKNOW.

THE NIGERIANTRAVEL WRITER,SLIGHTLY BASED ON YOU, I WILLASK YOU?

HER FRIEND, HER COUSIN, ANDHERMAID.

THEY HAVE REALLY DIFFERENTPERSONALITIES AND PERSPECTIVESAND EXPERIENCES.

YET, THEIR LIVES AREINTERTWINED.

HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH THATAND HOW DID YOU CHOOSETHEIRSTORIES?

>> I KNEW I WANTED TOWRITEABOUT WOMEN'S LIVES.

I KNEW THATAFTER MY LASTNOVEL.

I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT THECOMPLEXITY OF WOMEN'S LIVES,ABOUT WOMEN'SFRIENDSHIPS.

HOW WOMEN SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER.

WHEN I WRITE FICTION I NEVERHAVE A CLEAR PLAN.

I HAVE A VAGUE IDEA AND THEN IGO WITHIT.

WONDERFUL: LOVE FROM ELIZABETHBOWEN, WRITERS DONOT CREATECHARACTERS, THEY FIND THEM.

THE CHARACTERS PREEXIST.

I LOVE THE QUOTE BECAUSE ITFEELS TRUE TO ME INA WAY.

I FIND THAT I FIND MYCHARACTERS.

IT IS DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUTHOW I CAME UP WITH THEM IN ANINTELLECTUAL WAY, BECAUSE THEREARE SO MUCH ABOUT IT INTUITIVEAND SPIRITUAL.

IN SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT THEYEMBODY, EACH CHARACTER, AREREALLY VERY FRONT AND CENTER INOUR LIVES TODAY.

THE NIGERIAN WRITER, YOUARE ANIGERIAN WRITER.

SHE TALKS ABOUT HER STRUGGLESTO GET PUBLISHED.

INTHE BOOK, IS SUDDENLY FELTDELUSIONAL TO THINK ANYBODYWOULD PUBLISH A LIGHT ANDQUIRKY TRAVEL BOOK BY A BLACKNIGERIAN WOMAN.

SHE WAS TOLD TO WRITE ABOUT THEHORROR STORIES IN CONGO.

HORRIFIC .

YOU AREHIGHLIGHTING SOMETHING THATCLEARLY IS TROUBLING IN THEPUBLISHINGINDUSTRY.

>> IT HAS NOT BEEN MYEXPERIENCE.

I HAVE BEEN VERY FORTUNATE.

I'VE BEEN PUBLISHED WELL.

WHEN ISTARTED OUT IEXPERIENCED SOME OF THAT BUT IHAVE NOT IN A WHILE.

I AM FORTUNATE.

I DID WANT TO WRITE IN HER CASEABOUT TRAVEL WRITING.

IT IS AFIELD THAT DOES NOTHAVE MANY PROMINENT BLACK WOMENTHAT I THINKTHAT TRAVELING ASA BLACK WOMAN IS A PARTICULARTHING.

TRAVELING AS A WOMAN IS APARTICULAR THING, AND ABLACKWOMAN.

SHE'S NOT PARTICULARLYSUCCESSFUL, I THINK THAT ISIMPORTANT.

SHE DOES NOT WANT TO DO WHATISCONSIDERED WHAT IS HEAVY.

SHE WANTS TO WRITE FUNNY ANDQUIRKY THINGS.

SHE FINDS THAT BECAUSE SHE IS ABLACK WOMAN TRYING TO BREAKINTO THE INDUSTRY, A BLACKAFRICAN WOMAN, SHE IS EXPECTEDTO BE THE INTERPRETER OFSTRUGGLES.

SHE IS ASKED TO WRITEABOUTSUDAN AND WOMEN BEING .

SHEDOES NOT WANT TO.

MAYBE FOR ME IT IS A QUESTIONOF ALLOWING A WIDE RANGE OFPOSSIBILITY FOR BLACK AFRICANWOMEN.

FOR BLACKWRITERS, REALLY.

>> THAT IS AN INTERESTINGPOINT.

I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHATYOU MEANT, IT IS DIFFICULT FORA BLACK WOMAN, ESPECIALLYPRETTY RELATED OUTCOME OF THESTEREOTYPE OF WHAT THEY AREEXPECTED TO HAVE AS ANEXPERIENCE.

WHAT ABOUT, THE CORA?

SHE IS A WOMAN THAT GOES TOTHEGOVERNMENT OF ABORTION.

SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T SHE HAVEAKID?

YOU TALK ABOUTTHE MERITS OFBEING A MOTHER.

THIS IS THE ZEITGEIST.

WE KNOW THERE IS A MOVEMENTTHAT CASTIGATES WOMEN FOR NOTWANTING TO BE MOTHERS.

I FOUND THIS REALLYINTERESTING--YOU SAY IT SHOULD BE THEIRCHOICE, BUT HER MOTHER, FORINSTANCE --SHE SAID, I AMMISTRESS OF ALL ISURVEY.

ACTUALLY, AUNTIE JANE'S, I DOLIKE MY LIFE.

I FLAIL FOR MEANING SOMETIMES,MAYBE TOO OFTEN.

IT IS A FULL LIFE, IT IS MYOWN.

I HAVE LEARNED THAT I CANNOT DOWITHOUT PEOPLEAND WITHOUTSTRETCHES OF SUSTAINEDISOLATION.

TO BE ALONE IS NOT ALWAYS TO BELONELY --SOMETIMES I REVEL INLONG SPELLS OF SATISFYINGSEXLESS, UNBURNED BYTHE NEED.

YOU ARE MAKING A POINT ABOUTWHAT IT MEANS TO BE SATISFIEDAS A WOMAN.

>> IT ALSO REPRESENTS THATTHERE ARE OTHER WAYSTO LIVEFOR A WOMAN.

IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ONE-WAY.

MANY WOMEN WANT TO HAVECHILDREN, OF COURSE.

MANY WOMEN DO NOT.

OFTEN THERE IS A JUDGMENT.

IT ALMOST SEEMS AS THOUGH WOMENWHO DO NOT WANT TO HAVECHILDREN ARE TOLD THAT WHAT ITIS TO FEEL TO BE A WOMAN.

FOR ME, A CHARACTERTHATREPRESENTS AN IDEA THATTHEREARE OTHER WAYS TO LIVE.

SHE IS CONSIDERED STRANGE BYOTHER PEOPLE AROUND HER AND SHEFINDS HERSELF WONDERING IF SHEDOES LIKE HER LIFE AFTER SHEHAS A RELATIVE TELL HER THATSHE DOES NOT.

I THINK SHE REALLY DOES LIKEHER LIFE.

THE IDEA THAT WHENA WOMAN ISALONE SHE MUST AUTOMATICALLY BELONELY, IT IS NOT TRUE.

>> I CONFLATED HERWITH ZEKORA.

SHE HAS ANOTHERDIFFICULT STORY.

TELL US ABOUT THE CORA AND WHATSHE REPRESENTS IN THIS STORY?

>> SIKORA IS VERY TRADITIONAL.

SHE HAS A VERY CONVENTIONALDREAM.

SHE WANTS THE HUSBAND, THE BIGCATHOLIC WEDDING, SHEWANTSCHILDREN.

SHE HAS DONE EVERYTHING SHEIMAGINES SHE IS SUPPOSED TO DO.

SHE HAS DONE WELL AT SCHOOL,SHE GOT THE JOB, AND SHEIMAGINES SOMEHOW THE HUSBANDWILL FOLLOW.

IT DOESN'T.

LIKEMANY WOMEN, SHE'S IN LATE30s.

SHE STARTS TO FEEL PRESSUREOFBIOLOGY.

SHE KNOWS THAT IF SHE WANTSCHILDREN SHE HAS LIMITED TIME.

SHE IS IN RELATIONSHIPS WITHMEN IN WHICH SHE TRIES HARD TOGET THEM TO PROPOSE.

AND, THEY DON'T.

I AM STRUCK BY THE IDEA THATMANY WOMEN ARE INDEPENDENT,BRILLIANT, THOUGHTFUL, AND THEYWANTTHE RELATIONSHIPS TOPROGRESS TO MARRIAGE.

SOMEHOW THEY DO NOT HAVE THEPOWER TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTEDIN THAT.

EVEN IN WESTERN CULTURE, THEIDEA OF THE PROPOSAL, HOW WOMENSOMETIMES ARE SHOT TO BEPROPOSED TOO.

IT IS SUCH A STRANGE THINGBECAUSE MARRIAGE IS SUCH ANIMPORTANT PART OF ONE'S LIFE.

YOU THINK SOMEONE DOES NOT HAVEFULL CONTROL OF WHEN AND IF ITWILL HAPPENAS A WOMAN, IT ISINTERESTING TO ME.

>> INDEED, IT IS.

THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY WHOLEINDUSTRIES AROUND THE PROPOSAL.

THERE IS A VERY DARK STORY,ALSO.

NOT A SPOILERALERT, BECAUSE NOREVIEWS HAVE MENTIONED IT --HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK YOUREALIZE THAT ONE OF YOURCHARACTERS, SHE IS THE MADEOFONE OF THEM.

SHE IS FROM GUINEA.

SHE HAS SUFFERED A SEXUALASSAULT.

TELL US ABOUT WHY YOU BROUGHTTHAT INTOTHE STORY?

AND WHY YOU THOUGHT YOU NEEDEDTO IN THIS GROUP OF FRIENDS?

AND WHAT IT WAS BASED ONINREALITY?

IN THE CHARACTER, SHE ISINSPIRED BYA REAL PERSON, AREAL THING THAT HAPPENED.

A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO I WROTEASTORY ABOUT A WOMAN WHO ACCUSEA POWERFUL MAN OFSEXUALASSAULT.

HIS STORY WAS THAT SHE WALKEDINTO A HOTEL ROOM AND THIS MANRAN TO HER AND ASSAULTED HER.

I FOLLOWED THESTORY CLOSELYFOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, MOSTLYBECAUSE I FELT A CONNECTION TOTHE WOMAN.

SHE WAS WEST AFRICAN, AS I AM.

ALSO, BECAUSE SHE WASPOWERLESS.

SHE WAS NOT FORMALLY EDUCATED.

SHE WAS NOT ANENGLISH SPEAKER.

I WASVERY UPSET BY HOW SHE WASCOVERED IN THE MEDIA.

I FELT SHE WAS NOT GIVENDIGNITY.

HER CASE WAS DROPPED,ANDBECAUSE THE CLAIM WAS THAT SHELIED ON HER ASYLUM APPLICATIONWHEN SHE CAME TO THE U. S. NOTTHAT SHE LIED ABOUT THE ACTUALASSAULT.

I REMEMBER FEELING WOUNDEDBYTHIS.

I THOUGHT IT WAS NOT JUST ABOUTTHIS WOMAN, IT WAS ALSO ABOUTTHE LARGER MESSAGE THAT WOMENWERE GETTING.

IF YOU ACCUSE SOMEONE OFSEXUALASSAULT AND YOU EXPECT TO GETJUSTICE, YOU BETTER BE PERFECT.

HE BETTER NOT HAVE ANY FLAW INYOUR LIFE.

IT OF COURSE MEANS THAT YOUWILL NOT GET JUSTICE, NOBODY ISFLAWLESS.

WE ARE ALL FLAWED, HUMAN BEINGSARE FLAWED.

I DIDN'T REALLY PLAN TO WRITE ACHARACTER BASED ON HER.

IN MANY WAYS THECHARACTERREVEALED HERSELF TO ME.

I STARTED WRITING HER AND IREALIZED THAT I ACTUALLYWAS INAN OBLIQUE WAY, I WAS TRYING TOGIVE THE WOMAN BACK HERDIGNITY.

I WAS TRYING TO CREATE A HUMANBEING.

BY DOING THAT, TO REMIND PEOPLETHAT WHEN A WOMAN IS IN THENEWS AND ACCUSING SOMEONEOFSEXUAL ASSAULT AND BEINGDEMONIZED, SHE IS A PERSON.

SHE HAS PEOPLE WHO LOVE HER.

SHE HAS DREAMS AND HOPES.

SHE IS HUMAN.

I FEEL THAT SOMETIMES WE NEEDTO BE REMINDED OF THAT ABOUTWOMEN.

IT ISSO EASY FOR THE HUMANITYOF WOMEN AND POSITIONS OF THATSORT TO BECOME INVISIBLE.

>> YOU ARE IN AMERICA AT A TIMEWHEN THERE SEEMS TO BE AN ALLOUT FEDERAL ASSAULT ON WOMEN.

THE WHOLEREMOVAL OFDEI ANDERASING THE IDEA OF THISIN ANYCOMPANY.

PLUS THE ERASURE OF HUNDREDS OFWORDS THAT DEAL IN THAT SPACE.

AND SO MANY WORDS THAT PERTAINTO BEING A WOMAN.

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE LIVING INAMERICA, HOW ARE YOU REACTINGTO THAT?

HOW ARE YOU FEELING?

>> OH, SOMETIMES IT IS HARDTOFEEL.

I THINK IT IS A MIX OFEMOTIONS.

I AM SOMETIMES STUNNED.

SOMETIMES THERE IS DISBELIEF.

ALSO, THERE IS A REFUSAL TOGIVE INTO DESPAIR.

I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING ISFRIGHTENING, IT IS STRANGE.

I HAVE GONE BACK TO READ, ABOUT1930s GERMANY.

I THINK THAT I WANT TO LEARNFROM HISTORY TO BETTERUNDERSTAND THE PRESENT TIME.

IN SOME WAYSI AM UNPREPAREDFOR THIS HAPPENING IN AMERICA.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT AMERICABEING THE COUNTRY THAT AT THEEND OF THE WAR WHEN ORDINARYGERMANS ARE DESPERATELY HOPINGTHAT AMERICANS WOULD LIBERATETHEM, RATHER THAN RUSSIANS --EVEN THAT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUTWHAT AMERICA REPRESENTED.

I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THEYWOULD WISH THAT NOW IF THEREHAPPENED TO BE A WAR?

I AM DETERMINED NOT TO DESPAIR.

I BELIEVE WHAT IS BROKEN ANDBEING BROKEN WILL BE MADE WHOLEAGAIN.

THE THINGS THAT WE BELIEVE, THEFREEDOM OF OUR IMAGINATIONS,THEHUMAN SPIRITS THRIVE.

IT IS DIFFICULT TO KILL THAT, ITHINK?

YOU CAN BEEN WORSE, BUT PEOPLEWILL STILLUSE THEM.

I TRY TO TELL MYSELF THATAMERICA IS NOT ONLY ABOUTTHESETHINGS.

MANY PEOPLE WHO FEEL STRONGLYABOUT DIVERSITYFEEL THAT.

IT'S SAD HOW THE EXPRESSION HASBEEN DEMONIZED, DEI.

IT'S REALLY ABOUT JUSTICE.

IT'S ABOUT THE IDEA THAT SOLONG AMERICA REALLY WAS ACOUNTRY OF DEI ONLY FOR WHITEPEOPLE.

IN SOME WAYS, DEI, IS A WAY TOTRY TO ADDRESS THE IMBALANCE.

IS NOT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOTQUALIFIED OR ALL THE WAYS ITHAS BEEN DEMONIZED.

I THINK MANY PEOPLE RECOGNIZETHAT.

MY GENERAL POSITIONIS ONE OFREFUSING TO GIVE INTO DESPAIR.

>> SOMETIMES HOPE CAN BEASTRATEGY.

"DREAM COUNT", TELUS QUICKLY INTHE LAST 40 SECONDS, WHY DIDYOU NAME IT THAT?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

>> IT IS ABOUT DREAMING, AMONGOTHER THINGS.

I'M INTERESTED IN THE IDEA OFWHAT WE DREAM ABOUT.

WHO GETS THE DREAM?

WHAT DO DREAMS MEAN?

AND SOMETIMES THINKING ABOUTTHE LIVES THAT WE LEADANDWHERE OUR LIVES HAVE GONE?

IT IS A REALLY UNIVERSAL IDEA.

NO MATTER WHERE WE ARE, WHO WEARE,WE DREAM.

SOMETIMES WE LONG FOR THINGSTHAT WE KNOW WE WILL NEVERHAVE, BUT WE STILL LONG.

I FIND THAT BEAUTIFUL ANDHUMAN.

>> THAT IS A BEAUTIFUL NOTE TOEND ON.

CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE, THANKYOU FOR BEING WITH US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU .

TOOK IN THEWHITE HOUSE HAS DECLARED CASECLOSED ON THE SIGNAL CHATSCHEDULE.

THE STORY ISFAR FROM OVER.

POLITICO IS REPORTING AT LEAST20 GROUP CHATS HAVE BEEN SET UPON THE APP BY THENATIONALSECURITYADVISOR'S TEAM.

MIKE SPEAKS TO JEFFREYGOLDBERG, WHO EXPOSED THEBOMBSHELL STORY AFTER HE WASADDED TO THECHAT.

>> THANK YOU, WELCOME TO THESHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW YOUGOT INTOA SIGNAL CHAT WITH THEDEFENSE SECRETARY AND THENATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR ABOUTTHE BOMBING THENATIONALSECURITY ADVISOR SAYS THAT HEHAS NEVER MET YOU.

HE CALLED YOU, SCUM, AND SAIDHIS NUMBERGOT SUCKED INTO HISPHONE.

IS IT TRUE THAT HE NEVER METYOU?

>> IS NEVER --IT'S NOT TRUETHAT I AM SCUM.

OPINIONS DIFFER, RIGHT?

CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR.

IS NOT TRUE THAT WENEVER MET.

WE HAVE MET.

IT IS SILLY.

>> DOES HE KNOW THAT YOUHAVEMAC?

IS HE INTENTIONALLY SAYINGTHINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE?

>> BELIEVE IT OR NOT, HE MAYINTENTIONALLY BE SAYING THINGSTHAT ARE NOT TRUE.

ACCORDING TO THE REPORTING BYMAGGIE AND OTHERS, DONALDTRUMP, POST SCANDAL, IN THE MIDDLEOF CONTROVERSY, DONALD TRUMPWAS NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THESIGNAL BREACH.

THE CONTENT OF THE MESSAGES ORANYTHING THAT HE WAS UPSETBECAUSE HE THOUGHT MIKE WALTZMIGHT HAVE BEEN FRIENDSWITHME.

MIKE WENT OUT AND SAID THINGSARE NOT TRUE ABOUT ME AND OURRELATIONSHIP.

I'M NOT GOING TO GO INTO IT,BECAUSE I DO NOT COMMENT ONEWAY OR THE OTHERABOUT PEOPLE,PUBLIC FIGURES, SOURCES, I DONOT,ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ABOUTANYTHING.

I JUST NEEDED TO CORRECT THERECORD AND SAY, YES, I KNOWHIM.

LET ME FRAME IT DIPLOMATICALLY--DEFLORATION --DESPERATIONTO KEEP YOUR JOB CAN LEAD SOMEPEOPLE TO SAY THINGS THAT AREUNTRUE, UNWISE, AND ALSOADHOMINEM.

THAT IS ALL I WILL SAY.

>> HE ALSO SAID IT WAS NOT THATCONFIDENTIALOR SECRET.

THAT THERE WAS NO DANGEROUSINFORMATION IN IT.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS TRUE?

>> THAT IS THE ORWELLIAN PARTOF THIS.

HERE IS ONE EXAMPLE OF WHAT WASIN THE CHAT.

PETE HEGSETH, HE SAID,OURTEAMS ARE LAUNCHING IN A HALFHOUR TOATTACK STRONGHOLDTARGETS IN YEMEN.

WE ALL KNOW THATTHEYHAVE ANTI-AIRCRAFT CAPABILITIES.

IT IS NOT A SECRET, NOT THEMOST SENSITIVE INFORMATION--PILOTS, HUMANIST AMERICANSERVICEMEN, FIGHTER PILOTS, AREGOING TOWARD YEMEN IN THENEARFUTURE.

WHAT IS SECRET?

WHAT COUNTS AS SECRET?

IT IS ABSURD.

I AMNOT DISMISSING THE HILLARYCLINTON SERVER IN THE BASEMENTSCANDAL.

I AM SIMPLY GOING TO POINT OUTTHAT HILLARY CLINTON WAS NEVERPUTTING OUT UNCOMMERCIALMESSAGING APPS, THE TIMINGANDTARGETING OF AMERICAN MILITARYOPERATIONS SHORTLY BEFORELAUNCHING.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT ITELOQUENTLY IN THE ATLANTIC.

WALKME THROUGH.

YOU ALL OF A SUDDEN ARE INVITEDTO THE GROUP CHECK, WHY DIDN'TYOU IMMEDIATELY SAY, NO THANKS,I AM A JOURNALIST.

>> ISAID, YES,THANKS.

I AM A JOURNALIST.

IT IS MY JOB TO FIND OUT WHATTHE GOVERNMENT IS DOING.

IT IS USUALLY HARDER THAN THIS.

YOU HAVE DONE THAT FOR YEARS ASA JOURNALIST.

EVERYBODY FROM ALYSSA'S ONDOWN, I AM DOWNTHAT CHAIN, YOUSPEND ALL YOUR DAYS TO FIGUREOUT WHAT THE GOVERNMENTISDOING.

THAT IS THE ROLE OF THE PRESSAND THE FREE SOCIETY APPEARSCONNECTED YOU ACTUALLY THINK ITWAS THE NATIONAL SECURITYADVISOR?

>> NO.

THAT IS THE POINT.

TALKING TO COLLEAGUES ABOUTTHIS, I THOUGHTIT WAS ADISINFORMATION OPERATION.

I THOUGHT IT WAS A CAMPAIGN.

I THOUGHT IT WASA HOAX.

A DECEPTION DESIGNED TO ENTRAPME TO DO SOMETHING STUPID OREMBARRASSING AS PEOPLE TARGETJOURNALISTS FOR THAT SORTOFTHING.

I DID SAY TOA COLLEAGUE, WHATARE THE CHANCES THIS IS REAL?

THE COLLIE SAID,NEAR ZERO.

THAT WAS MY CONCLUSION, ASWELL, ALL THE WAY UP TO THEDATE.

THE REASON WE THOUGHT NEARZERO, BECAUSE THIS ISTOOSTUPID TO BE BELIEVED.

>> WHEN DID YOU ALL OF A SUDDENHIT YOU?

>> SATURDAY, THE 15th.

11:44, I SAW A TEXTCOME FROMPETE HEGSETH.

IS SAID THAT IT WAS WHEN THEATTACK WAS GOING TO TAKE PLACE.

THE FIRST BOMBS WILL FALL AT13:30.

I THINK?

THISWAS AT11:44, I AM READINGIT.

I SAID, ALL RIGHT, I WILL SITHERE AND WAIT.

I COULD GO TO SOCIALMEDIAAROUND 2:00 P. M. 1400 EASTERN, TO FIND OUT IFBOMBS ARE FALLING.

THE YEMEN CAPITAL,THEHOOTIE--STRONGHOLD.

IT IS THE SAME TIME THAT THEYARE SAYING THE BOMBS WILL FALL,I WILL KNOW FOR NEAR CERTAINTYIT IS REAL.

>> WHY DID YOU NOT PUBLISH THEWHOLE TRANSCRIPT RIGHT AWAY?

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO PUBLISHA?

>> I DID IT RIGHT AWAY BECAUSEI THOUGHT THERE WAS INFORMATIONIN THE TRANSCRIPT THAT WAS NOTNECESSARY.

THAT IT WAS TOUGH CIGARETTE IDO NOT WANT TOTRAFFICINFORMATION WHEN IT IS ALIVESUBJECT.

THE CAMPAIGN WAS CONTINUING, IDO NOT WANT TO TRAFFICTECHNICAL DETAILS.

MY GOAL IS TO NOT GET AMERICANSHURT.

NUMBER ONE GOAL.

THATMONDAY MORNING, I PULLMYSELF FROM THE CHAPTER MONDAYMORNING I GET IN TOUCH WITHMIKE WALTZ.

AND, STEPHEN MILLER,MARCORUBIO, PETE HEGSETH.

I SEND THEMALL MESSAGES AND ILAID OUT WHAT WAS GOING ON,WHAT I WAS WRITING AND I ASKEDHIM TOCONFIRM THAT THIS ISEVEN TRUE?

THERE IS A REAL SIGNAL GROUPCALLED, HOOTHIE PHILEDACORRIDOR.

ASMALL GROUP.

MIKE WALTZ ORDINATION COMESBACK TWO HOURS LATER AND SAYS,YES, APPARENTLY IT IS A REALCHAIN.

I WAS A LITTLE SURPRISED THEYCONFIRMED QUICKLY.

THEY HAD NO CHOICE BECAUSE ITIS REAL.

>> YOU DID NOTPUBLISH THEWHOLE TRANSCRIPT RISK IN NOTTHE WHOLE THING.

NOTHING THATI CONSIDEREDSENSITIVE.

COLLEAGUES CAN JUDGE BETTERTHAN I CAN, TECHNICALOROPERATIONAL, THE PETE HEGSETHTEXTI KEPT ALL BECAUSE THATWAS OPERATIONAL DETAIL.

THEN MIKE WALTZ GOESON TV ANDCALLED ME A SCUMBAGANDDECEITFUL.

PETE HEGSETH SAID THAT I WASSUBHUMAN.

THAT IT ISA HOAX.

DONALD TRUMP SAID THERE WASNOTHING SACRED.

I THOUGHT, OH MY GOD, THAT ISTERRIBLE.

ANYBODY READING THIS KNOWS ITIS SENSITIVE.

TOUGH SEEKER, WHATEVER YOU WANTTO CALL IT.

I CANNOT CLASSIFY IT BECAUSEI'M NOT PRIVY TO THECLASSIFICATION SYSTEM.

IT'S OBVIOUSLYDEEPLYSENSITIVE.

THE NEXT DAY I SAID THAT YOUKEEP SAYING IS NOT SENSITIVE.

SO WE WILL DO THIS EXERCISE, IWILL GO TO EACHRELEVANT AGENCYAND ASKED HIM, IS THEREANYTHING TRULY SENSITIVE THAT ISHOULD WITHHOLD FROMPUBLICATION?

IF YOU TELL ME, NO, I WILLPUBLISH IT.

WE DO THIS EXERCISE OVER THECOURSE OF TUESDAY.

ONLY THE CIA ASKED USTOWITHHOLD.

THE CIA DIRECTOR SAID THERE WASNOTHING SECRET OR SENSITIVE INTHE CHAIN.

HIS OWN PEOPLE ASKED US TOWITHHOLD INFORMATION IN THECHAIN.

WE DID.

NOBODY ELSE CAME.

THEY BUILT A CATCH-22.

THEY HAVE DRIVEN DOWN A CUL-DE-SAC OF THEIR OWN MAKINGBYSAYING IT IS NOT SENSITIVE.

THEY WERE FREE MID TOPUBLISHIT.

THEY WOULD BE OPENING UP TOPOSSIBLE CHARGES OR GROSSNEGLIGENCE.

BY DOWNPLAYING THE IMPORTANCEOFOPERATIONAL SECURITY, BYSAYING IT DIDN'T MATTER, THEYFREED US TO GO OUT TO SAY THATIT IS WHAT IT IS.

AMERICANS READ IT AND JUDGEFORYOURSELVES.

THAT'S WHAT WE DID WE PUT ITOUT, WE CALLED HER BLUFF.

THEY GOADED US IN A DUMBWAY TODO THIS.

I DID NOTWANT TO.

WHEN THEY CALLED THE ATLANTIC,LIARS, THEY CALLED ME A LIAR, ITHOUGHT THAT OUR ROLE AS THEPRESS IS TO LET THE AMERICANPEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES IFIT IS SENSITIVEOR NOT?

THAT IS OUR ROLE IN SOCIETY.

WE PUT IT OUT AND PEOPLE MADEJUDGMENTS.

>> WOULD'VE HAPPENED IF IT HADGONE TO SOMEBODY OTHER THANYOU?

>> I'M AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST,NOT JUST A JOURNALIST.

I HAVE BEEN DOING THISNATIONALSECURITY KIND OF WORK FOR ALONG TIME.

YOU MAKE A DECISION EARLY ON,YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SHAREINFORMATION THAT COULD PUTAMERICANS IN HARM'S WAY.

AFTERTHE FACT, YOU CAN AUTOPSYA REPORT.

YOU CAN DO POSTMORTEM ONANYOPERATION.

I'M INTERESTED IN WHY AND HOWTHEY DO THINGS, THEIDEOLOGICALDISPUTES.

I DO NOT NEEDTO KNOWFROM MYPERSPECTIVE THAT THE PLANE ISTAKING OFF AT 12:15, NOT,12:30.

THERE IS THAT.

IF IT HAD FALLEN INTO OTHERHANDS, THAT IS ATHEORETICALQUESTION.

IT IS A NIGHTMARE QUESTION.

HERE IS A SCENARIO, IT COULDHAVE GONE TOA DIPLOMAT WHOSENAME WAS IN HIS PHONE.

HE MIGHT'VE BEEN FRIENDS WITHANOTHER DIPLOMAT AND HECOULD'VE BEEN FRIENDS WITH AIRANIAN DIPLOMAT.

HE COULD'VE BEEN A GAME OFTELEPHONE AND THAT WOULD'VEGIVEN TIME FOR THE HOOTHIE'S TOREARRANGE WHERE THEY WERE ATTHE TIME OR EVENMOREDANGEROUSLY, FOR AMERICANS INTHE AIR, THEY COULD'VE PREPAREDAN ANTIAIRCRAFT PROGRAM THATWOULD'VE BEEN MORE EFFECTIVETHAN IT OBVIOUSLYWAS.

FROM THE NATIONAL SECURITYADVISOR STANDPOINT, A COMPLETEDISASTER PUTTING OUT THATINFORMATION INTO A COMMERCIALAPP.

>> A COUPLE DAYS AFTERYOUPUBLISH, YOU CAME TO NEWORLEANS AND WALKED INANDSURPRISED MY CLASS.

YOU TALKED ABOUT YOUR FAMILY'SREACTION.

WHAT YOU CALLED YOUR FAMILY'SGROUP CHAT.

TELLING HOW YOUR FAMILY REACTEDTO ALL OF THIS?

>> AT A CERTAIN POINT ITBECAMECOMICAL.

MIKE WALTZ GOING ON FOX SAYINGTHAT I SOMEHOW SUCK MY PHONENUMBER INTOHIS PHONE NUMBER ORA SIGNAL BREEDS, OR SOMETHING--THEY WERE MAKING UP CRAZYSTORIES.

ELON MUSK WAS GOING TO COMEINVESTIGATE HOW I MANIPULATEDTHE NUMBER INTO HIS PHONE.

ONE OF MY KIDS IN THE SMALLGROUP CHAT WROTE --I THOUGHTIT WAS FUNNY BECAUSE IT'S TRUE,THE MOST AMAZING PART OF THESTORY, DADDY FINALLY FIGUREDOUT HOW TO TAKE A SCREENSHOT.

I AM NOT GIFTED INTHISREALM.

I WILL LITERALLY ASK MY KIDS,SO, YOU PRESS THE BUTTONS ATTHESAME TIME?

THE IDEA THAT I'M IN A RELATEDSIGNAL IS LAUGHABLE.

IT COMES BACK TO THE KEY POINT,THERE ARE A LOT OFCONSPIRACYTHEORIES, I WAS IN HIS PHONEAND ADDEDTO THE GROUP.

WHO THEY MEANT TO ADD, THEYWON'T TELL US.

IT WAS NOT ME.

IN A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEENBULLIED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS, LAWFIRMS, THEY ALL SEEM TO CAVE.

CAN YOU BE BULLIED BYTHISADMINISTRATION?

ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THEYMIGHT DO TO YOU?

>> NO.

I CANNOT BE BULLIED AND I'M NOTWORRIED.

THEY TRY TO DO THINGS TOPEOPLE, THEY TRY.

THAT IS THE PRICE YOU PAY.

THE WHOLE IDEAOF BULLYING,THERE ARE TWO PARTIES TO ABULLYING PROCESS.

THERE IS THE BULLY AND THEPERSON WHO LET THEMSELVES BEBULLIED.

THE LAW FIRMS WHO ARE GIVINGIN, TVNETWORKS, ABC,WASHINGTON POST, THEENDORSEMENT --PEOPLE WHO AREBULLIED THINK THAT IF THEY JUSTGIVE THE THING THAT THE BULLYSAYS HE WANTS, THE BULLYINGWILL STOP.

IT DOES NOT STOP UNTILYOURESIST.

IDON'T KNOW?

I AM NOT SCARED OFTHAT.

THEY WANT TO MESSWITH US OROTHER PEOPLE, I HOPE THEYDON'T, THAT WOULD BE SILLY --BUT, WE HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY INSOCIETY.

THE FREE PRESS HAS A ROLE TOPLAY IN A TRANSPARENTDEMOCRACY, WE WILL PLAY IT.

THAT IS IT.

END OF STORY.

>> WHAT IS THE TRUE LESSON FROMTHIS?

JUST THAT THEY WERE SLOPPYINVITING PEOPLE LIKE YOU INTOGROUP CHATS?

OR A DEEPER LESSON HERE?

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW DEEP YOUCAN GO?

THEY DID NOT TAKE OPERATIONALSECURITY SERIOUSLY.

THAT SUGGESTS THAT THEY ARE NOTSERIOUS PEOPLE.

PETE HEGSETH IS INTERESTING.

IT'SALMOST COSPLAY.

WE ARE BOMBINGAT MIDNIGHT.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PLAYSECRETARY OF DEFENSE, YOU ARESECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SHARE THATKIND OF INFORMATION.

MAYBE BECAUSE JUDY VANCE WAS ONTHE CHAT THEY WERE SHOWING OFF?

I DON'T KNOW?

SHOWING OFF FOR THE VICEPRESIDENT, I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT.

THE REAL LESSON HERE, THEKEYSTONE QUALITY OF THISMAKESAMERICA'S ALLIES, WHO AREALREADY WONDERING ABOUT OURALLY SHIP, IT MAKES THEALLIESWONDER IF THESE GUYS ARE NOTFUNDAMENTALLY SERIOUS?

WHAT IS THE BECOME A SERIOUSISSUE?

WHEN THEYARE HESITANT.

UK, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND,NATO, EVERYBODY ELSE--REMEMBER, THIS IS SUBSEQUENTREPORTING, NOT MY OWN, THEISRAELIS HAD A SPY ON THEGROUND OF SOME SORT WHO WASGIVING THEM REAL-TIMEINFORMATION.

THAT HASBEEN REPORTED.

YOUTHE ISRAELIS, YOU'RE LIKE,WE ARE GIVING YOU VERYSENSITIVE INFORMATION ANDYOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT ON ACOMMERCIAL MESSAGING APP?

IT UNDERMINES SECURITY BECAUSEIT MAKES US SEEM LESSTRUSTWORTHY.

>> YOU CAME ON THE SHOW INDECEMBER OF2023, LET ME READBACK SOMETHING YOU SAID THEN.

ANOTHER TRUMPPRESIDENCY POSESNEXT ESSENTIAL THREAT TOAMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

WE ARE 10 WEEKS INTO THISADMINISTRATION, GIVE ME YOURASSESSMENT NOW?

DOES THAT STILL HOLD?

>> YES.

I MEAN, THERE ARE 1 MILLIONTHINGSGOING ON.

WAVE AFTER WAVE AFTER WAVE.

THE LARGER POINT, THEY AREFIRING ASSISTANT U. S. ATTORNEYS, WHO OFFENDEDTHEIRALLIES.

THEIR REMOVING OFFICES WHEREYOU CAN GETGOVERNMENTINFORMATION.

YOU CAN SUE FOR PRIVATEINFORMATION.

THERE DISMANTLINGANYOPERATION, ANY OFFICE INGOVERNMENT THAT COULDINVESTIGATE THEM.

THE FIRST THING YOU DO IF YOUARE AUTHORITARIAN MINDED, YOUNEUTRALIZE ALL THE PEOPLE THATCAN INVESTIGATE YOU FOR THAT ISA PROGRESS OF THE TO GO OFF TODO WHAT YOU WANT.

WE'RE IN THE PHASE NOW.

SOME PEOPLE IN JUDICIARY AREFIGHTING BACK BUT WE AREHEADING TOWARD THE CRISISMOMENT WHERE THEY IGNORE THEJUDGES ORDER.

BUT LOYALISTS IN CHARGE OF THEFBI, YOU ARE TELLING THE WORLDWE WILL NEVER INVESTIGATE OUROWN FLAWS.

THAT PUTS YOU ON THE ROADTOAUTHORITARIANISM.

THAT MEANS THAT THEAMERICANEXPERIMENT AS WE UNDERSTANDTHAT COULD BE COMING TO AN ENDUNLESS ACCOUNTABILITY ISRETURNED TO THE SYSTEM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FORJOINING US.

> >> IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.

> >> IN DIFFICULT TIMES, WE CANOFTEN FIND COMFORTFROM OURFURRY FRIENDS.

IN THAILAND, THESE GOLDENRETRIEVERS ARE PROVIDING THATFOR PEOPLE WHOSE RELATIVES ARESTILL MISSING AFTER LAST WEEK'SEARTHQUAKE ACROSSTHE BORDER.

THE DOGS ARE MULTITALENTED,OFFERING EMOTIONAL SUPPORTDURING A BREAK FROM SITTING FORSIGNSOF LIFE.

THEHANDLERS SAY THEY HAVEAMAZING POWERS AND OUR HEARTSGO OUT TO ALL OF THOSE WHO AREDESPERATELY TRYING TO BERESCUED.

> >> THAT IS FOR OUR PROGRAMTODAY.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'SCOMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UPFOR OUR NEWSLETTER.