>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> ON THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, AXIOS IS REPORTING THAT YOU MIGHT OPEN AS SOON AS TOMORROW?

>> IT COULD HAPPEN.

TOMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY.

>> BUT IRAN SAYS IT STILL NEEDS GUARANTEES FROM THE U. S. AS THEY NEGOTIATE WITH OMAN, WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE THE CONFLICT?

AND IS A DEAL ACTUALLY CLOSE?

> >> AND HOW WOMEN CAN LEAD THE FIGHT AGAINST AUTHORITARIANISM.

JOURNALIST LINDA ROBINSON JOINS ME ON HER NEW BOOK SPOTLIGHTING THE FEMALE LEADERS ON THE FRONT LINES OF THE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY.

> >> THEN -- >> THE RISE OF PLASTIC SURGERY, AND WHY WE SHOULD BE WORRIED.

I SPEAK TO "THE NEW YORKER'S" JIA TOLENTINO ABOUT THE BEAUTY STANDARDS CHANGING OUR PSYCHE.

> >> PLUS -- >> IT'S NOT ABOUT ENDING CAPITALISM AS WE KNOW IT, BUT IT IS ABOUT SOCIALIZING THE COST OF CONSUMPTION.

>> THE CONSUMER SOCIALISM TRAP.

JOURNALIST IDREES KAHLOON EXAMS NEW YORK CITY MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI'S AFFORDABILITY AGENDA.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

ONCE AGAIN CONFUSION REIGNS OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

PRESIDENT TRUMP PROMISED THE END THIS WEEK.

THE VITAL SHIPPING LANE WILL OPEN, QUOTE, VERY SOON.

TAKE FROM THAT WHAT YOU WILL.

THE PROBLEM IS THE U. S. IS NOT NEGOTIATING DIRECTLY WITH IRAN.

TEHRAN IS SPEAKING TO OMAN AND SAYS THE DEAL ON THE STRAIT IS CLOSE.

BUT THAT AGREEMENT WOULD NOT AUTOMATICALLY REOPEN THE STRAIT.

FIRST, THEY WANT THE U. S. TO MEET CERTAIN GUARANTEES.

LET'S GO TO OUR CORRESPONDENT IN THE REGION FOR MORE ON THIS.

JEREMY DIAMOND IS JOINING ME FROM TEL AVIV.

SO JEREMY, IRAN SAYS THEY ARE CLOSE TO REACHING A DEAL WITH OMAN.

WHAT ARE THESE GUARANTEES THAT THEY'RE DEMANDING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE BEFORE THAT HAPPENS?

>> WELL, IT SEEMS LIKE THESE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN IRAN AND OMAN ARE REALLY GOING TO CHANGE THE PRE- WAR STATUS QUO AS IT RELATES TO THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

IN FACT, SO MUCH SO THAT YOU'RE NOW HAVING MARITIME SHIPPING GROUPS WARNING THAT ANY POTENTIAL IMPOSITION OF TOLLS AND FEES GOING FORWARD, PARTICULARLY IF IT WAS AGREED TO BY NOT ONLY IRAN, BUT OMAN AS WELL AND PERHAPS EVEN SOME INTERNATIONAL U. N.

- RELATED ORGANIZATIONS, THEN THAT COULD REALLY CREATE A VERY DANGEROUS STATUS QUO NOT ONLY FOR THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, BUT POTENTIALLY FOR OTHER SHIPPING LANES AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT THE REAL QUESTION NOW IS WHETHER OR NOT THIS POTENTIAL DEAL THAT COULD EMERGE OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ BETWEEN IRAN AND OMAN, WHETHER IT WILL BE SOMETHING THAT WILL BE ACCEPTABLE ENOUGH TO THE UNITED STATES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP CAN COME OUT AND PROCLAIM THAT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IS OPEN ONCE AGAIN, EVEN IF IT IS IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY THAN IT WAS PRE-PRE- WAR, BUT THAT THAT EFFECTIVELY ALLOWS BOTH OF THESE SIDES TO GO BACK TO THE CEASEFIRE THAT HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN AGREED TO AND THEN PROCEED WITH NEGOTIATIONS ON THE MANY OTHER POINTS, INCLUDING OBVIOUSLY THE NEWSROOM CLEAR POINT THAT ULTIMATELY NEED TO BE NEGOTIATED BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN.

BUT IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE IRANIANS SAID EVEN A DEAL WITH OMAN OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WON'T NECESSARILY BE ENOUGH TO GET THAT SHIPPING LANE BACK OPEN.

IRAN HAS SAID THAT THE UNITED STATES MUST ALSO END ITS NAVAL BLOCKADE ON IRANIAN PORTS AND REMOVE SANCTIONS THAT HAD BEEN REIMPOSED AFTER THE CEASEFIRE BEGAN TO FALL APART.

SO A LOT OF COMPLICATING FACTORS HERE, INCLUDING OBVIOUSLY THE FACT THAT IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THE U. S. AND IRAN ARE ACTUALLY SPEAKING TO EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW, DESPITE SOME OF WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OTHER AMERICAN OFFICIALS HAVE SUGGESTED.

BUT A VERY COMPLEX SITUATION, ONE WHERE WE'RE STARTING TO SEE A POTENTIAL OFFRAMP THAT'S PRESENTING ITSELF.

BUT, AGAIN, ONE THAT COULD REALLY CHANGE THE STATUS QUO FOR A LONG TIME TO COME.

>> REGARDLESS OF WHERE THINGS LAND, IRAN CLEARLY WANTS TO RATIFY CONTROL OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE CONTROL OVER FEBRUARY 27th BEFORE THIS WAR BEGAN.

JEREMY, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER POINT OF CONTENTION THERE, AND THAT IS THE FRAGILE STATE OF TALKS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND LEBANON.

THEY WERE SCHEDULED TO HAPPEN IN ROME, BUT OVER THE LAST 24 HOURS, ISRAEL CONDUCTED AN OPERATION IN LEBANON SAYING THAT THEY WERE TARGETING HEZBOLLAH.

THE RESULT WAS THAT TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS WERE KILLED.

WHERE DO THINGS STAND AT THIS POINT?

ARE THESE TALKS ONGOING IN ROME AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, YESTERDAY IT SEEMS LIKE THEY DID GET DERAILED BY EVENTS ON THE GROUND IN LEBANON.

TODAY THOSE NEGOTIATIONS APPEAR TO BE BACK ON BETWEEN ISRAELI AND LEBANESE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

AN INDICATION OF THE POLITICAL WILL PERHAPS ON BOT SIDES TO ACTUALLY MOVE FORWARD WITH THESE NEGOTIATION.

ALSO OF COURSE OF THE U. S. PRESSURE BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR ON THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO PURSUE THIS NEGOTIATING TRACK.

WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY IS THAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID THAT TWO OF ITS SOLDIERS WERE KILLED, FOUR WERE SERIOUSLY WOUNDED WHEN THEY ENTERED WHAT THE MILITARY DESCRIBED AS A BOOBY-TRAPPED BUILDING, AN IMPROVISED EXPLOSIVE DEVICE GOING OFF.

NOT CLEAR WHEN THAT EXPLOSIVE DEVICE WAS ACTUALLY PLACED IN THAT BUILDING, BUT ISRAEL CALLED IT A, QUOTE, BLATANT VIOLATION OF THE CEASEFIRE AND PROCEEDED TO CARRY OUT STRIKES ON THE LEBANESE CITY OF TYRE AND SEVERAL OTHER VILLAGES IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.

AT LEAST EIGHT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WOUNDED BY THE STRIKES ACCORDING TO LEBANON'S NEWS AGENCY.

BUT THE TALKS APPEAR TO BE BACK ON TRACK TODAY.

AGAIN, IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT HEZBOLLAH IS NOT PART OF THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

AND THEY HAVE DISAVOWED THEM COMPLETELY, IN FACT.

WHAT THESE NEGOTIATIONS HAVE PRODUCED SO FAR ARE A FEW PILOT ZONES IN SOUTHERN LEBANON WHERE THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS WITHDRAWN FROM A COUPLE OF VILLAGES IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.

THE LEBANESE MILITARY HAS THEN GONE IN, AND THE GOAL IS THAT THEY WOULD HOLD THOSE AREAS AND PREVENT HEZBOLLAH FROM RE-ENTRENCHING THEMSELVES THERE.

LEBANON IS TRYING TO GET ADDITIONAL AREAS INCLUDED AS PART OF THIS PILOT PROGRAM.

ISRAEL WANTS TO SEE PROOF THAT LEBANON IS ACTUALLY EFFECTIVE AT KEEPING HEZBOLLAH OUT OF THESE AREAS.

THAT'S THE PRIMARY ISSUE BEING NEGOTIATED RIGHT NOW.

NO INDICATION AS OF YET OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS PROGRESS THERE.

BUT CERTAINLY THE TALKS ARE BACK ON TRACK AT LEAST.

>> SOMEWHAT REASSURING.

JEREMY DIAMOND FROM TEL AVIV, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> WELL, THERE IS NO DENYING THAT AUTHORITARIANISM IS GROWING, AND WITH THE RISE OF STRONGMEN COMES A SURGE IN MISOGYNY.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES THAT ATTACKS ON WOMEN AND ATTACKS ON DEMOCRACY ARE DEEPLY INTERTWINED.

BUT THERE ARE LEADERS FIGHTING BACK, FROM TAIWAN TO EASTERN EUROPE TO BARBADOS.

IN HER NEW BOOK, "WOMEN IN POWER," FOREIGN POLICY SCHOLAR LINDA ROBINSON PROFILES THE FEMALE LEADERS FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY.

AND SHE JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON.

A VERY THOUGHTFUL AND INTERESTING ARGUMENT YOU'RE MAKING IN THIS BOOK, LINDA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AND YOU MET WITH, WE SHOULD NOTE, IN WRITING THIS BOOK AND PROFILED A NUMBER OF VERY, VERY INFLUENTIAL FEMALE WORLD LEADERS.

BUT LET'S START WITH THE CENTRAL CLAIM OF THIS BOOK.

AND THAT IS THE DECLINE OF DEMOCRACY HAS QUINN SIZED WITH STALLING GAINS FOR WOMEN LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD.

YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE, BUT RATHER A FEATURE OF AUTOCRATIC LEADERSHIP.

THAT'S QUITE A PROVOCATIVE THESIS.

WHAT LED YOU TO IT?

>> WELL, THANK YOU, BIANNA.

I'M DELIGHTED TO BE WITH YOU.

LET ME EXPLAIN BRIEFLY THAT MORE COUNTRIES TODAY ARE AUTHORITARIAN THAN DEMOCRATIC.

THIS TREND HAS BEEN ONGOING.

PART OF IT IS A DECLINE IN REPRESENTATION AND RIGHTS.

SO THEY ARE INTRINSICALLY LINKED.

I'LL JUST MENTIONED WHAT'S HAPPENING TO WOMEN'S LEADERSHIP.

IN PARLIAMENTS AROUND THE WORLD, THEIR SHARE HAS STALLED 27%.

THEY'RE HALF OF THE POPULATION.

SO THAT'S FAR BELOW PARITY.

IT'S EVEN WORSE IN THE CASE OF WOMEN PRESIDENTS AND PRIME MINISTERS, WHERE THEIR NUMBERS HAVE DROPPED.

THERE ARE ONLY 25 OF THEM IN THE WORLD TODAY.

AND THE NUMBER OF WOMEN IN CABINET POSITIONS HAS ALSO DROPPED.

SO THE REASON I ARGUE THESE ARE CONNECTED IS PART OF THIS AUTHORITARIAN WAVE ACTUALLY HAS AN EXPLICITLY ANTI-WOMEN NARRATIVE TO IT.

THEY SEEK REALLY TO EMBRACE THE IDEA OF WOMEN GOING BACK TO HOME, TO THE HOME, ING ON FAMILY.

THERE IS A VERY STRONG NORMALIZATION OF VIOLENT AND PUNITIVE MEASURES AGAINST WOMEN, INCLUDING THE DENIAL OF THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR WOMEN, THAT IT SHOULD BE THE MALE HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD.

SO YOU SEE THIS COMING OUT IN EVERY REGION OF THE WORLD, AND INCLUDING IN THE U. S.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE WOMEN WHO YOU PROFILE.

AND LET'S START WITH MAIA SANDU, NOT JUST BECAUSE I WAS BORN IN MOLDOVA AND HAVE INTERVIEWED MAIA A NUMBER OF TIMES AS WELL.

SHE IS VERY IMPRESSIVE AND HAS OVERCOME QUITE A FEW HURDLES FROM NEXT DOOR THERE IN RUSSIA WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN, WHETHER IT'S ENERGY BLACKMAIL DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS, REPEATED RUSSIAN VIOLATIONS OF MOLDOVAN AIRSPACE.

IN FACT, IT IS THE UKRAINIAN ARMY THAT'S COMBATTING RUSSIA NOW FOR FIVE YEARS THAT IS ALSO THE LAST LINE OF DEFENSE FOR MOLDOVA.

ALL OF THIS AS SHE IS TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH EUROPEAN ECCESSION INTO IS THE EU.

AND WHAT IS WORKING.

>> THIS IS THE FLIP SIDE OF WOMEN IN POLITICS.

WOMEN ARE FIGHTING BACK, AND WOMEN ARE FIGHTING NOT ONLY FOR THEMSELVES, BUT FOR DEMOCRACY.

AND THERE IS NO BETTER CASE THAN MAIA SANDU.

AND I DO KNOW YOUR BACKGROUND.

I WAS HAPPY THAT I WAS ABLE TO GO TO MOLDOVA, TRAVEL AROUND, MEET WITH MINISTERS, AND OF COURSE SPEND TIME WITH HER.

AND SHE HAS REALLY BEEN I WOULD SAY THE PREEMINENT WOMAN LEADER FIGHTING BACK AGAINST AUTHORITARIANISM, RUSSIAN HYBRID WARFARE, AS YOU MENTIONED, HAS BEEN LEVELED AT HER FOR YEARS.

SHE'S WON TWO ELECTIONS AS PRESIDENT, AND SHE'S REALLY SOLIDIFIED THE DEFENSES OF THE COUNTRY BY STARTING THE FIRST CYBER SECURITY AGENCY, PASSING DISINFORMATION LAWS, CLEANING UP CORRUPTION WITH JUDICIAL REFORM, AND SHE'S ALSO WORKED AGAINST RUSSIA'S EFFORTS TO STEAL THE VOTE THROUGH MASSIVE FRAUD AND DIVIDE THE POPULATION BY WORKING IN THE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING MINORITIES USING THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH, ALL OF THESE KINDS OF HYBRID WARFARE TACTICS.

AND SHE REALLY HAS PREVAILED, AND SHE'S JUST OPENED TALKS TO JOIN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND THAT'S THE ULTIMATE SECURITY GUARANTEE FOR A TINY COUNTRY LIKE MOLDOVA.

AND I THINK THEY'RE ON TRACK BY THE END OF HER TERM VERY LIKELY TO WIN ACCESSION TO EUROPE WITH TRADE AND ENERGY FROM RUSSIA.

SO THEY'RE WELL ON THE WAY.

IT'S BY NO MEANS A DONE DEAL BECAUSE RUSSIA CONTINUES TO ATTACK THEM.

>> YEAH, A TINY LAND- LOCKED COUNTRY THERE, ONE OF THE POOREST IN EUROPE, AND NONETHELESS SHE PERSEVERES.

ANOTHER COUNTRY I'D LIKE TO RAISE HERE IS ICELAND.

THEY HAVE TOPPED GLOBAL RANKINGS FOR GENDER EQUALITY FOR MORE THAN A DECADE.

IT'S PRODUCED MULTIPLE WOMEN LEADERS ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM THERE.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH ICELAND'S PRESIDENT, AND HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT THIS PHENOMENON.

>> I HOPE THE NEXT PHASE FOR NEWS ICELAND WILL BE ABOUT BRINGING BOYS AND MEN TO THE TABLE EVEN MORE ACTIVELY.

AND IT'S STILL A FACT IN THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE TODAY THAT OVER 90% OF ALL POSITIONS, BE IT HEAD OF STATES OR CEOs OR CHAIRMENS OF BOARDS, THEY'RE STILL MEN.

SO EVEN IF WOMEN HAVE MADE GREAT PROGRESS, AND IN ICELAND, WE CERTAINLY HAVE, WE HAVE NOT CLOSED THE GENDER GAP ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

AND WE ARE VERY FAR FROM A GENDER BALANCE AND LEADERSHIP THE WORLD OVER.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF HER ARGUMENT THAT MALE ALLYSHIP IS SO CRUCIAL IN STARTING AS YOUNG AS POSSIBLE IS THE BEST AVENUE?

>> YES.

I THINK THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT RECENT DEVELOPMENT, AND I'VE BEEN TO THE REYKJAVIK GLOBAL FORUM, WHICH IS A WONDERFUL FORUM WHERE THEY'RE BRINGING THIS ISSUE UP AND TRYING TO BRING MEN AROUND THE TABLE, BECAUSE THE THING ABOUT WOMEN'S EQUALITY AND GENDER EQUALITY IS IT'S NOT A ZERO SUM GAME.

IT'S REALLY ABOUT BRINGING WOMEN IN RATHER THAN WHO LOSES.

AND THIS IS I THINK THE NEED TO HAVE MALE ALLIES TO SUPPORT THAT GOAL.

AND MY HOPE IS THAT ALL HUSBANDS, FATHERS, BROTHERS, SONS CAN EMBRACE THAT FOR THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS WHO HAPPEN TO BE FEMALE.

I'VE WRITTEN MANY BOOKS ABOUT WAR, SPECIAL FORCES, AND OTHER NATIONAL SECURITY TOPICS.

I HOPE THE MEN READ THOSE BOOKS, WILL GIVE THIS BOOK A READ AND SEE JUST HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO HAVE THE WOMEN AND WHAT THEY'RE CONTRIBUTING, NOT JUST FOR WOMEN, BUT FOR THEIR ENTIRE SOCIETIES.

>> SOMEONE ELSE WHO YOU PROFILED WHO HAS ALSO BEEN FIGHTING RUSSIAN HYBRID WARFARE, WHETHER IT WAS WHEN SHE WAS THE FIRST FEMALE PRIME MINISTER OF ESTONIA, AND NOW THE EU'S TOP DIPLOMAT IS KAYA CALLAS.

SHE HAS MADE A NAME FOR HERSELF, NOT ONLY PUSHING BACK AGAINST RUSSIAN AINVESTIGATION, BUT IN DEFENSE OF UKRAINE AND DEMOCRACY THROUGHOUT EUROPE.

BUT SOME MEMBER STATES ARE NOW PROPOSED TO STRIPPING HER OF SOME OF HER FOREIGN POLICY POWERS AND ARE ADVOCATING OR ARGUING TO HANDLE IT THEMSELVES DIRECTLY.

IS WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE A CASE THAT YOU ARE HIGHLIGHTING ABOUT GENDER, I WOULD SAY PRIORITIES AND MEN WANTING TO CALL THE SHOTS?

OR IS THIS A TYPICAL POLITICAL SCUFFLE AMONGST LEADERS?

>> WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION HER STANDOUT ROLE AS PRIME MINISTER OF ESTONIA.

BUT TO ANSWER BRIEFLY WHAT'S GOING ON IN HER CURRENT ROLE AS THE FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, I THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO LOOK FOR A MORE STREAMLINED APPROACH AS EUROPE BECOMES CLEARLY THE LEADER OF THE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY.

AND SHE HAS BEEN VERY THOUGHTFUL I THINK IN HER RESPONSES THAT THE EU CAN CERTAINLY IMPROVE ITS PROCESSES.

THERE IS SOME TUSSLE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN WHO SHOULD BE LEADING ON WHAT ISSUES, BUT SHE HAS REALLY LED FOREMOST, AS YOU MENTIONED, IN PUSHING BACK AGAINST YOU'RE'S AGGRESSION.

SHE LED --WHEN SHE LED ESTONIA, THEY WERE THE HIGHEST CONTRIBUTOR TO UKRAINE PER GDP, AND SHE ALSO WAS DEFENDING THE NEED FOR EUROPE FROM VERY EARLY DAYS TO COORDINATE AND BOLSTER ITS DEFENSE AND FIGHT FOR ACCOUNTABILITY FOR RUSSIA'S WAR CRIMES.

SO SHE HAS BEEN UNRELENTING IN THE NEED TO HAVE A STRONG DEFENSE AGAINST AGGRESSION, AND SHE'S BEEN VERY CLEAR, PARTLY BECAUSE THE BALTIC COUNTRIES ARE ON THE FRONT LINE.

HER MOTHER AND GRANDMOTHER WERE BOTH DEPORTED TO SIBERIA, AND SHE IS I THINK A LEADER FOR THE NEXT DECADE.

WHATEVER ROLE SHE OCCUPIES, SHE SPEAKS HER MIND.

AND I HAVE TO SAY AS A CENTER-RIGHT POLITICIAN, AND I LOOKED AT LEADERS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM, SHE WAS ADAMANT WHEN SHE FORMED HER CABINET THAT SHE WOULD HAVE 50% WOMEN IN THE CABINET.

SHE ALSO CHAMPIONED GENDER EQUAL MARRIAGE, THE SECOND COUNTRY IN EASTERN EUROPE TO DO SO.

SO IT SHOWS THAT YOU CAN BE STRONG ON DEFENSE, BUT ALSO FOR GENDER EQUALITY.

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION.

>> WHAT ABOUT SOME OF THE CONSERVATIVE FEMALE LEADERS THAT WE'VE SEEN HAVE PROMINENT ROLES IN FOREIGN POLICY, NOT ONLY IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES, BUT ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

AND THAT'S EITHER THE NEW PRIME MINISTER OF JAPAN, GIORGIA MELONI IN ITALY AS WELL, HOW DO THEY RANK?

>> WELL, I THINK TO TAKE THE JAPANESE FIRST WOMAN PRIME MINISTER FIRST, SHE CAME OUT RIGHT AWAY IN DEFENSE OF TAIWAN AGAINST SABER-RATTLING FROM CHINA.

SHE HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT AS A CONSERVATIVE TO HELP DEFEND THE REGION AGAINST CHINESE ENCROACHMENT AND THEIR CONSTANT AGGRESSION IN THE REGION.

ALSO, SHE'S I THINK NOT KNOWN AS A FEMINIST, BUT SHE IS STANDING UP.

SHE DID DO A JOINT PRESS CONFERENCE WITH GIORGIA MELONI, TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO HAVE EUROPEAN DEFENSE AND AID TO UKRAINE.

SO I THINK YOU SEE THESE LEADERS FORMING COMMON CAUSE.

IN THE CASE OF GIORGIA MELONI, THE ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER, SHE IS A VERY INTERESTING CHARACTER.

CERTAINLY NOT A FEMINIST, BUT SHE HAS STOOD UP, SHE WAS ATTACKED BY DEEPFAKE PORN, THESE WAYS OF DELEGITIMIZING WORLD LEADERS WHO ARE WOMEN, AND SHE HAS ALSO I THINK DEFINITIVELY BROKEN WITH TRUMP AND HIS DEMEANING BEHAVIOR TOWARDS WOMEN LEADERS.

SO SHE'S EVOLVED FROM BEING A EURO SKEPTIC TO BEING PRO EUROPE FOR AID TO UKRAINE AND SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA.

SO I THINK SHE IS A LEADER IN EVOLUTION, ALTHOUGH YOU DO POINT OUT THERE ARE RIGHT- WING LEADERS WHO ARE WOMEN.

AND I CERTAINLY DON'T ARGUE IN MY BOOK THAT WOMEN ARE ALL GOOD LEADERS OR ALL DEMOCRATS, BUT CERTAINLY AS A PROPORTION OF THE POPULATION, AS HALF OF THE POPULATION, THEY HAVE AS MUCH GOVERNING TALENT AS MEN DO.

AND I THINK IN MANY CASES, THEY'RE CHANGE MAKERS WHO RISE UP IN PROTEST MOVEMENTS AND CALLS FOR DEFEATING AGGRESSION AND CORRUPTION.

>> CHANGE MAKERS IN MULTIPLE WAYS, WHETHER IT'S HAVING A BABY WHILE IN OFFICE, AS WAS THE CASE WITH JACINDAED ADERN IN NEW ZEALAND, AND WHEN LEADERS SPEAK OUT ABOUT BEING GROPED, SOMETHING SO MANY WOMEN LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD ENCOUNTER ON A DAILY BASIS, AND SOMETHING EVEN MEXICO'S NEW PCs CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM COULDN'T ESCAPE, AND SHE SPOKE OUT AGAINST THAT AS WELL.

YOU CLOSE YOUR BOOK WITH MIA MOTLEY, THE PRIME MINISTER OF BARBADOS, THE FIRST WOMAN TO HOLD THAT JOB.

SHE REALLY BECAME A CHAMPION OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

HOW BIG OF A ROLE HAS SHE PLAYED ON THAT FRONT?

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR RAISING BOTH OF THOSE POINTS, BECAUSE WOMEN ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR NOW THAN BEFORE.

AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.

MIA MOTLEY, I CLOSED THE BOOK WITH HER.

I THINK SHE IS A POWERFUL CASE OF LEADERSHIP FROM THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

AND THEIR EXISTENTIAL CHALLENGE REALLY IS CLIMATE CHANGE AND INADEQUATE AND INEQUITABLE FINANCING FOR COME BATTING IT.

AND SHE FORMED THE BRIDGETOWN INITIATIVE, WON SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL PRACTICES, AND HELPED TO REVERSE THE CURRENT SITUATION WHERE IN THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, THEY'RE A NET EXPORTER OF CAPITAL RATHER THAN RECEIVING FINANCING.

AND AS THE FRONT LINE AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE, WE NEED TO DO BETTER.

SHE HAS ALSO BEEN A CHAMPION OF INTERNATIONAL GOVERNANCE REFORM AT THE U. N. AND ELSEWHERE, AND I THINK WE'LL HAVE HER VOICE ON THE WORLD STAGE FOR QUITE A WHILE TO COME.

>> SO YOU COVER WOMEN IN ASIA, LATIN AMERICA, AFRICA, THE CARIBBEAN, EUROPE, A GLARING OMISSION OF COURSE THE UNITED STATES.

IN THE FINAL CLOSING SECONDS HERE, ARE YOU MORE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE UNITED STATES ELECTING ITS FIRST FEMALE LEADER?

>> WELL, I DID HAVE PLANNED A KAMALA HARRIS PRESIDENT CHAPTER, BUT THAT DID NOT COME TO PASS.

I THINK THAT WE HAVE WOMEN GOVERNORS OF OUR STATES AT A HIGHER NUMBER THAN BEFORE.

THERE'S A VERY LOW AND DROPPING PERCENTAGE OF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES FOR OFFICE IN THE CONGRESS.

THAT IS I THINK THE REALLY SEVERE WEAKNESS.

AND WE NEED A NEW GENERATION OF LEADERS WILLING TO STEP UP AND SERVE.

I THINK WE'LL EVENTUALLY GET THERE, BUT THE U. S. HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK ON GENDER EQUALITY, AND WE HAVE A DIFFICULT POLITICAL SYSTEM, FIRST PAST THE POST, WINNER TAKE ALL ELECTION.

SO WE NEED TO LOOK AT ELECTORAL REFORM TO MAKE OUR COUNTRY MORE REPRESENTATIVE.

>> SAME GOES FOR THE UNITED NATIONS, WHICH SHOULD KNOW, WHICH HAS NEVER ELECTED A FEMALE SECRETARY GENERAL EITHER.

LINDA ROBINSON, FASCINATING CONVERSATION AND BOOK.

REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE BEAUTIFUL?

WELL, SOCIETY HAS ALWAYS VALUED BEAUTY, BUT IN RECENT YEARS, SOMETHING HAS CHANGED.

AS WE GAZE INTO OUR PHONES AND THE ENDLESS SCROLL OF SOCIAL MEDIA, WE'RE INUNDATED WITH AUGMENTED AND ARTIFICIAL BEAUTY SETTING UNREALISTIC STANDARDS.

HOW DOES THIS IMPACT SELF- WORTH, AND HOW DOES IT MEAN FOR HOW WE SEE OURSELVES AND ONE ANOTHER.

IN HER LATEST ESSAY FOR "THE NEW YORKER," JIA TOLENTINO STAIRS INTO THE ALGORITHMIC ABYSS EVEN AS IT STAIRS RIGHT BACK AT HER.

AND SHE'S NOT THE ONLY ONE.

SHE JOINS ME FROM NEW YORK.

JIA, WOW, YOU HAVE WRITTEN QUITE THE TALKER HERE.

AND I THINK YOU SPEAK, ALBEIT MUCH MORE ELOQUENTFULLY THIS ESSAY, FOR SO MANY, MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE JUST STUNNED BY WHAT NOT ONLY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, BUT ALSO INSTAGRAM AND OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA APPS HAVE DONE IN THIS SPACE, AND HOW THEY'VE EVOLVED.

AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT IT WAS SEVEN YEARS AGO THAT YOU COINED INSTAGRAM FACE, AND ASKED WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WHEN THE ALGORITHM STARTED SHAPING REAL FACES.

WELL, THIS ESSAY IS YOUR ANSWER.

YOU WRITE THAT TODAY'S FACES ARE, QUOTE, MORE TECHNICALLY BEAUTIFUL BUT MORE SPIRITUALLY UNATTRACTIVE.

EVERYTHING IS HOT BUT NOTHING IS EROTIC.

SO WHAT WAS THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING AT YOUR PHONE AND PUT IT DOWN AND SAID I NEED TO WRITE ABOUT THIS?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SENSE THAT WE HAVE THAT THE WORLD THAT IS MEDIATED BY THE PHONES IS DISINCENTIVIZES THE REAL AND THE PHYSICAL, AND THAT WE ARE SORT OF SURROUNDED ON THE PHONES WITH INCREASINGLY PERFECTED FACES, INCREASINGLY PERFECTED EVERYTHING, AND THAT SOMEHOW THIS FEELING OF DREAD AND DISASSOCIATION IS RISING UP WITHIN US.

I JUST --IT WAS EARLIER THIS YEAR, AND THIS IS QUITE OBVIOUS.

IT'S SOMETHING MANY PEOPLE SPEAK ABOUT EVERY TIME WE WATCH A RED CARPET, THE FACT THAT THE MOST VISIBLE FACES IN OUR SOCIETY ARE DRAWING AWAY FROM THE HUMAN, THE FACT THAT AI IS --THERE IS THIS RISE OF THIS TECHNOLOGICAL PARADIGM IN WHICH WHATEVER IS HUMAN IS PRESENTED AS INFERIOR BECAUSE IT IS IMPERFECT.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS A REAL WAY THAT THIS IS MANIFESTING WITHIN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS, WITHIN OUR INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS, WITHIN PEOPLE'S RELATIONSHIPS TO THEIR OWN BODY, TO THE PASSAGE OF TIME.

AND YEAH, I FELT THAT IT WAS AT LEAST WORTH WRITING ABOUT.

>> AND FACE-LIFTS AND COSMETIC SURGERY OBVIOUSLY HAVE BEEN WITH US FOR DECADES NOW.

I MEAN, THE TECHNOLOGY HAS EVOLVED, AS HAS THE SCIENCE, BUT YOU ARGUE THAT THE FACE IS SEPARATING FROM PERSON, AND THE PERSON FROM THE SOUL.

SO HOW HAS THE FACE-LIFT ITSELF BECOME THE FOCUS AND HOW HAS THAT CHANGED?

>> WELL, SO THE FACE-LIFT, YOU KNOW, IN 2019, LIKE YOU SAID, I WROTE ABOUT THIS THING CALLED INSTAGRAM FACE, WHICH IS WHERE THE MOST VISIBLE FACES ON OUR PHONES WHICH TENDED TO BE WHITE FEMALE INFLUENCERS ON INSTAGRAM, THEY STARTED TO LOOK LIKE EACH OTHER.

AND NOW WE CAN SEE THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THAT WHERE IF YOU ASK AI TO GENERATE A PICTURE OF A WOMAN, 98% OF THOSE IMAGES WILL BE A WHITE WOMAN, A THIN WHITE WOMAN, A CONVENTIONALLY BEAUTIFUL WHITE WOMAN.

THESE THINGS CROP UP IN THE REALM OF SOCIAL MEDIA, AND THEN HAVE REAL, LASTING CONSEQUENCES BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE INTERNET WORKS.

SO NOW INSTAGRAM FACE, YOU CAN GET INJECTABLES ON KLARNA, IN ANY STRIP MALL, IN ANY SMALL TO MIDSIZED CITY.

AND THE MOST WEALTHY AND PROFESSIONALLY BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE IN OUR CULTURE ARE GETTING FACE-LIFTS INSTEAD.

AND THIS WILL TRICKLE DOWN FOR THE NEXT DECADE.

WE NOW -- IT'S HARD TO GET EXACT NUMBERS ON HOW PREVALENT EXACTLY PLASTIC SURGERY IS IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE PEOPLE DEFINE IT DIFFERENTLY, BUT ONE KIND OF APPROXIMATE THING OF INTERESTING IS THE REDDIT SUBFORUM HAS ALMOST AS MANY WEEKLY VISITORS FOR R/RUNNING.

THIS IS AN INCREASINGLY INTERESTING PASTIME THAT PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN UP.

AND, YOU KNOW, TRADITIONALLY, THE FACE, WE LOOK TO EACH OTHER'S FACES FOR A MARK OF LIFE, FOR A MARK OF TEMPERAMENT, FOR A MARK OF PERSONALITY.

IT'S, YOU KNOW, FROM ANCIENT PHILOSOPHY, IT'S VERY OBVIOUSLY THE PORTAL TO OUR HUMANITY, THE PORTAL TO THE SOUL.

AND I THINK WHEN THE LAST TEN YEARS, IT'S BEEN THE FACE, PARTICULARLY THE FEMALE FACE, BUT NOW OF COURSE THE MALE FACE TOO, HAS BEEN RECONFIGURED AS CONSUMER GUIDE AND A DISCIPLINARY MANUAL.

AND THAT --THAT'S NEW.

THAT'S DIFFERENT.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THE WAY THAT IT'S BECOME GENERALIZABLE WITH SOCIAL MEDIA IS DIFFERENT.

>> AND FACE-LIFTS AND TWEAKS, BOTOX, WHAT HAVE YOU, THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SYNONYMOUS WITH SLOWING DOWN THE AGING PROCESS.

SO YOU WOULD IMAGINE THAT WHETHER IT'S A CELEBRITY OR A HIGH PROFILE INDIVIDUAL, THAT THEY WOULD UNDERGO THESE PROCEDURES WHEN THEY'RE IN THEIR 40s, 50s, 60s, AND THAT STILL HAPPENS, BUT THERE IS ALSO A NEW PHENOMENON THAT IS PREEMPTIVE ANTI-AGING CARE.

AND MORE AND MORE PEOPLE IN THEIR 20s AND 30S ARE TAKING DRASTIC MEASURES WITH THEIR FACE.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> SO FROM 2019 TO 2022, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE AGED 20 OR UNDER WHO ARE GETTING BOTOX OR OTHER INJECTABLES INCREASED 75%, RIGHT.

BOTOX USED TO BE INJECTABLES, ALL OF THIS USED TO BE THE PROVINCE EXCLUSIVELY OF SORT OF THE COASTAL ELITE, ET CETERA.

AND NOW LIKE I WAS SAYING, IT'S KIND OF A GENERALIZED PASTIME.

YOU CAN -- IT CROSSES POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS, RURAL, URBAN.

IT'S KIND OF A GENERALIZED PASTIME.

AND THERE WAS THIS IDEA THAT ONE COULD GET PREVENTATIVE BOTOX, SORT OF THIS PROACTIVE THING TO KIND OF GENTLE TWEAKS.

ALL OF THESE IDEAS WERE INTRODUCED VERY GENTLY.

BUT I THINK WE CAN SENSE THAT THIS HAS MORPHED INTO THIS IDEA --IN MY PIECE I MENTION THIS 14-YEAR-OLD WHO WENT VIRAL FOR HER ANTI-AGING SKIN CARE ROUTINE ON TIKTOK.

YOU KNOW, AN IDEA HAS QUICKLY SUPPLANTED THE IDEA OF PROACTIVE MAINTENANCE THAT AGING ITSELF IN ANY FORM AT ANY AGE SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE IT'S A DISEASE, RIGHT.

THE IDEA OF PROACTIVITY MORPHED SO QUICKLY INTO THE IDEA THAT TIME ITSELF CANNOT BE SEEN TO MANIFEST ON A FACE.

AND ANY LINE IS ABERRANT.

AND ANY MARK OF AGE SHOULD BE PROACTIVELY TREATED.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THIS HAS --THIS IS --ON SOME LEVEL THIS IS A SURFACE THING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THIS IS A SUPERFICIAL THING.

BUT THERE ARE REAL EXISTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES TO WHAT THIS VISUAL ATTITUDE HAS DONE.

AND I THINK THAT --I THINK ESPECIALLY WOMEN, BUT I THINK ALL PEOPLE, WE CAN FEEL THE EFFECTS OF THIS, BECOMING SORT OF NORMALIZED IN OUR CULTURE.

>> AND "VOGUE" HAS CALLED 2025 THE YEAR OF PLASTIC SURGERY TRANSPARENCY.

SO YOU DO HAVE MORE CELEBRITIES AND MORE INFLUENCERS I GUESS BEING MORE OPEN ABOUT THE PROCEDURES THAT THEY'VE HAD.

KYLIE JENNER YOU NOTE IN THIS ESSAY AS WELL.

IS HONESTY A BETTER ALTERNATIVE THAN JUST NOT ADDRESSING WHAT IN MANY OF THESE CASES ARE DRASTIC CHANGES?

>> WELL, I --IT IS FUNNY, RIGHT, BECAUSE THERE IS THIS THING.

SO INSTAGRAM FACE, IT WAS --THERE WERE THESE KIND OF OSTENSIBLY NONVIOLENT PROCEDURES, THESE SMALL INJECTABLE TWEAKS THAT YOU COULD GET, AND THEN YOU COULD BE BACK TO YOUR OFFICE AN HOUR LATER, BUT YOU COULD TELL.

YOU COULD TELL THAT THE FACE HAD BEEN CHANGED.

NOW WITH THE NEW GUARD OF WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH CELEBRITIES ARE THESE FACE-LIFTS WHICH ARE KIND OF EXTRAORDINARILY VIOLENT, BUT THEY'RE NOT OBVIOUS.

IT'S NOT OBVIOUS WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND TO YOUR POINT EARLIER OF IT GOING YOUNGER AND YOUNGER, I WAS SORT OF --I WAS GOOGLING FACE-LIFT IN MY 30s, SHOULD I GET A FACE-LIFT, I'M 37.

I SEARCHED ON MY PHONE, I SEARCH IT ON MY HUSBAND'S PHONE.

AND I FOUND IT REMARKABLE THAT --I FOUND PLENTY OF THINGS SAYING YES, GREAT IDEA.

MAYBE A MINI FACE-LIFT, THAT'S NORMAL FOR 30s.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, JUST DO BOTOX AND FILLER INSTEAD THERE IS NO VISIBLE ARGUMENT FOR -- >> YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THIS.

>> YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THIS, YOU KNOW.

BUT SO NOW -- NOW THAT THE ACTUAL WORK OF THE FACE- LIFT, NOW THAT IT IS LESS OBVIOUS, THERE IS THIS KIND OF COUNTERVAILING DESIRE TO GET PEOPLE TO DISCLOSE WHAT THEY'VE DONE.

BUT IN MY PIECE, IT KIND OF FEELS LIKE ACKNOWLEDGMENT WHEN CELEBRITIES ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR PLASTIC SURGERY.

YOU WERE SHOUTING OUT THE OPPRESSIVE SYSTEM JUST BEFORE YOU WERE ABOUT TO COMMIT AN ACT THAT THEN UPHOLDS AND IS GUIDED BY THE OPPRESSIVE SYSTEM.

OSTENSIBLY, I GAS IT'S BETTER -- I WOULD PREFER THAT PEOPLE BE HONEST IF IT'S THAT VERSUS DISHONESTY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT KIND OF IS THIS CYCLE OF MUTUAL ESCALATION WHERE THIS IS NORMALIZED AND THE DISCLOSURE ITSELF BEGINS TO HAVE THIS MORAL VEILLANCE ATTACHED TO IT, THIS SOCIAL --WELL, AT LEAST THEY'RE DISCLOSING IT, AT LEAST THEY'RE BEING HONEST, AND THE ACTUAL PARADIGM ITSELF JUST STANDS UNCHANGED.

>> WELL, SOME OF THIS TERMINOLOGY IS ALL NEW TO ME AS WELL.

WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS THIS VIOLENT FACE-LIFT THAT'S MEANT TO LOOK MORE NATURAL.

THAT'S THE DEEP PLANE FACE-LIFT.

BUT SOMETHING I HAD NO IDEA WAS A THING UNTIL RECENTLY.

AND IT WAS MY TEENAGED SON WHO MENTIONED KNOWING ABOUT IT OR I HEARD IT IN CONVERSATION THAT HE WAS HAVING WITH SOMEONE ELSE.

LOOKS MAXING.

WHAT IS THAT?

>> SO -- SO WOMEN HAVE --DUE TO MISOGYNY, WOMEN HAVE BEEN --THERE HAS BEEN THIS EXTRAORDINARY PRESSURE ON WOMEN TO BE BEAUTIFUL, TO CAPITALIZE UPON THEIR LOOKS.

THERE IS THIS WAY IN WHICH WOMEN ARE EXPECTED TO BE PRETTY AS KIND OF A BARRIER ENTRY TO HUMANITY.

THIS IS KIND OF --AND IN THE LAST DECADE, THIS PART HAS TO DO WITH ALL THE CULTURE WARS OF THE 2010s, OF THE RISE OF THINGS LIKE DATING APPS, WHICH ALLOWED MEN AND WOMEN TO BOTH OPENLY SCRUTINIZE EACH OTHER WITH CONTEMPT, WITH THE RISE OF MAINSTREAM FEMINISM.

ALL OF THESE THINGS KIND OF COALESCED, AND THE REACTIONARY CORE OF MEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVISTS, ALL THESE WONDERFUL POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS OF THE INTERNET IN THE 2010s, THERE IS THIS --THERE IS A NICHE OF THEM THAT CALL THEMSELVES LOOKS MAXERS.

AND THERE IS THE MOST FAMOUS ONE, HIS NAME IS CLAVICLE AR.

HE GOT FAMOUS FOR THIS --FOR STARTING IN HIS TEENS HITTING HIS JAW WITH HAMMERS, INJECTING HIMSELF WITH PEPTIDES, MICRODOSING METH, ALL OF THE THINGS TO MAKE HIMSELF MORE CONVENTIONALLY BEAUTIFUL.

IT'S BASICALLY AS IF THIS GROUP OF KIND OF RIGHT-WING REACTIONARY YOUNG MEN HAVE KIND OF TAKEN UP THE FALSE AND KIND OF HORRIFIC REQUIREMENT ON WOMEN TO BE BEAUTIFUL.

THEY HAVE TAKEN IT UP THEMSELVES WITH MAXIMUM TOXICITY TO THEMSELVES AND OTHERS.

THERE IS THIS HARD-CORE OF MISOGYNY THAT RUNS THROUGH IT WHERE THEY CELEBRATE MEN FOR THIS BEAUTY WORK, THIS ARTIFICIALALITY WHILE DENIGRATING WOMEN FOR DOING THE SAME.

>> YOU MENTIONED HIM STARTING TO ALTER HOW HE LOOKED AT THE AGE OF 14, HE SAID HE IS LIKELY INFERTILE DUE TO LONG-TERM STEROID AND TESTOSTERONE USE.

HE ALSO TOLD "THE NEW YORK TIMES" KNOWING HE CAN HAVE SEX MATTERS MORE THAN THE ACT ITSELF.

SO WHAT IS ALL OF THIS MEAN IN TERMS OF DATING, INTIMACY?

THEY WERE ALWAYS SEEN AS GOING HAND IN HAND.

SOMEONE WANTING TO LOOK GOOD SO THEY CAN GET INTO A RELATIONSHIP AND FALL IN LOVE.

AND THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO ALWAYS BE THE NATURAL GOAL NOW.

>> I KNOW.

IT'S FUNNY TO THINK OF THE CRUDE DAYS OF MY MILLENNIAL YOUNG ADULTHOOD AS PREFERABLE WHEN PEOPLE WOULD TRY TO BE MORE BEAUTIFUL SO THAT THEY COULD MAYBE HAVE A HIGHER CHANCE OF MEETING SOMEONE AT THE BAR THAT NIGHT, RIGHT.

WHAT'S HAPPENING, THAT QUOTE YOU PRETTY FROM CLAVICULAR THAT SEX HIMSELF WOULD SERVE HIM NOTHING AS OPPOSED TO THE KNOWLEDGE THAT HE COULD HAVE IT.

IT'S PART OF THE OVERARCHING THING THAT I WAS WRITING ABOUT, THAT THERE IS A PULL AWAY FROM THE HUMAN AND THE PHYSICAL.

BOTH OF ONE'S ACTUAL SELF AND THE ACTUAL SELF OF OTHER PEOPLE.

THERE IS A PULL-AWAY FROM IMPERFECTION WHEN ACTUALLY IMPERFECTION IS THE MARK OF HUMANITY, RIGHT.

THERE'S THIS WITHDRAWAL OF OUR COMFORT AND OUR EAGERNESS FOR WHAT IS ACTUALLY HUMAN AND WHAT IS REAL AND WHAT IS FLAWED.

AND THIS IS HAPPENING IN THE REALM OF AI.

THIS IS HAPPENING IN THE REALM OF WHAT YOU SEE WITH YOUNG PEOPLE AND THE WAY THAT THEY ARE DATING, THE WAY THAT THEY ARE THINKING OF SEX, THE WAY THAT THEY ARE THINKING OF SOCIALIZING, THE WAY THAT THEY'RE THINKING THAT STRAIGHT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE THINKING OF THE OPPOSITE GENDER, THE WAY THAT THEY'RE THINKING OF THEIR OWN BEAUTY.

I WROTE THAT PART OF --IT SEEMS THAT WHAT'S IS EROTTICIZED THE COLLECTIVE DISEMBODIED ATTENTION ONE CAN RECEIVE THROUGH A SCREEN.

OVERWHELMING.

THERE'S JUST PULL-AWAY.

>> AT THE END OF THE REPORT, YOU ASK IN THE ESSAY, YOU ASK "CAN I SAVE MYSELF FROM THIS? "

SO MANY PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS PHENOMENON THAT YOU HAVE JUST WRITTEN IN THIS ESSAY ARE ASKING AS WELL.

MAYBE WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK ON TO GET YOUR ANSWER TO THAT.

>> TO SEE IF I SAVED MYSELF.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, JIA TOLENTINO.

I LEARNED SO MUCH FROM THIS AS WELL, AS ALWAYS FROM YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND NOW DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM IS MAKING GAINS THIS ELECTION CYCLE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND NOWHERE IS THAT MORE EVIDENCE THAN IN NEW YORK CITY, WHERE MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI HAS BUILT HIS EARLY AGENDA AROUND RENT FREEZES, CITY- RUN GROCERY STORES, AND UNIVERSAL CHILD CARE.

IN HIS LATEST ESSAY, THE CONSUMER SOCIALISM TRAP, IDREES KAHLOON, A STAFF WRITER AT THE ATLANTIC EXAMINES WHAT HE CALLS A NEWS FOCUS ON SOCIALISM ON LOWERING THE COST OF LIVING.

HE TALKS WITH MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HOW THIS IS RESONATING WITH VIEWERS AND WHY HE IS NOT CONVINCED THEY CAN DELIVER ON ALL THEIR PROMISES.

>> THANKS, BYIAN THAT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WAS.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> IF PEOPLE HAVE OBSERVED POLITICS, THEY WILL HAVE OBSERVED A NUMBER OF CANDIDATES GENERALLY CONSIDERED OF THE LEFT, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI, SEATTLE MAYOR KATIE WILSON AND WASHINGTON, D. C. THE MAYORAL CANDIDATE ARE RUNNING ON A VAGUELY SIMILAR PLATFORM --THEY WOULD SAY AFFORDABILITY.

LOWERING THE COST OF EVERYDAY LIFE.

YOU'RE CALLING THIS CONSUMER SOCIALISM.

CAN YOU BRIEFLY DESCRIBE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, AND HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM THE SOCIALISM THAT MANY PEOPLE.

EITHER LOVE OR HATE DEPENDING ON THEIR POINT OF VIEW.

>> YEAH SO, TRADITIONAL SOCIALISM IS ALL ABOUT SEIZING THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION, ENDING CAPITALISMS AS WE KNOW IT.

AND CONSUMER SOCIALISM IS SOMETHING THAT'S DIFFERENT.

AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS IT'S NOT ABOUT ENDING CAPITALISM AS WE KNOW IT, BUT IT IS ABOUT SOCIALIZING THE COSTS OF CONSUMPTION, MEANING CERTAIN SETS OF GOODS THAT ARE DEEMED ESSENTIAL, HOUSING, CHILD CARE, HEALTH CARE, ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO BE LEFT TO THE MARKET AND THEREFORE NEED TO BE SUBSIDIZED FOR ALL REALLY THROUGH A STATE PROGRAM.

AND WHAT'S NEW ABOUT THESE CANDIDATES THAT YOU MENTIONED IS THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO THIS NOW AT THE CITY LEVEL.

AND THIS IS JUST AN EXPERIMENT THAT I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE WILL SEE HOW WELL IT GOES, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY CAUGHT ON.

>> AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S CAUGHT ON?

WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IT IS RESONATING?

>> I THINK PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT AFFORDABILITY.

THAT'S BEEN TRUE FOR THE LAST THROUGH YEARS.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN UPSET EVER SINCE COVID AND THE INFLATION IT CAUSED.

WE'VE SEEN THAT MESSAGE OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS WHETHER REPUBLICANS ARE RUNNING AGAINST CANDIDATES.

DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO BE DOING IT NOW.

AND THERE THIS ARGUMENT THAT ACTUALLY ALL WE NEED TO DO IS JUST SET, YOU KNOW, THE RENT LOWER.

ALL WE NEED TO DO IS SUBSIDIZE CHILD CARE, AND WE CAN FIX THIS.

WE CAN FOUND GOVERNMENT-RUN GROCERY STORES AND FIX THIS PROBLEM DIRECTLY WITHOUT HAVING TO RESORT TO THE MARKET.

>> AND HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT FROM THE --I WOULD SAY THE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM THAT EXISTS IN PARTS OF EUROPE.

HEALTH CARE, FOR EXAMPLE.

I KNOW THAT THERE ARE POLITICIANS IN THE UNITED STATES LIKE RON JOHNSON, THE WISCONSIN REPUBLICAN SENATOR RON JOHNSON IS REALLY CRITICAL OF THESE SCHEMES.

HE CALLS IT FREE MONEY.

BUT OTHER PLACES CALL IT A PUBLIC GOOD.

SO HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT?

>> THAT IS DEFINITELY WHAT PEOPLE ASPIRE TO.

THEY POINT TO SCANDINAVIA AND COUNTRIES LIKE THAT.

THIS IS JUST THE MODEL WE ARE DOING.

AND THERE ARE A FEW IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THAT COMES TO MIND IN SCANDINAVIA, TAXES ARE VERY HIGH FOR EVERYONE.

IF YOU ARE A WORKING CLASS PERSON, YOU ARE PAYING 40%, MAYBE 50 DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH YOU ARE EARNING TO TAXES TO FUND THESE UNIVERSAL PROGRAMS.

THE WAY THAT AMERICAN POLITICIANS TALK ABOUT THESE PROGRAMS IS THAT YOU WON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT UNLESS YOU'RE EXTREMELY WEALTHY, UNLESS YOU OWN A SECOND HOME IN MANHATTAN, OR YOU ARE A BILLIONAIRE OR A MULTIMILLIONAIRE.

ALL THE MONEY THAT IS NECESSARY CAN BE RAISED ON THE BACKS OF THOSE PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S NOT THE SCANDINAVIAN MODEL.

AND SO THAT IS ONE REASON THAT I THINK THAT THE PROMISES THAT ARE BEING MADE AT THE CITY LEVEL MIGHT NOT TOTALLY PAN OUT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF BROAD-BASED SOCIAL PROGRAM THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE ROLLING OUT ON A VERY NARROW TAX BASE, ABOUT A TAX BASE THAT'S QUITE MOBILE.

THAT'S ONE DIFFERENCE.

I THINK THE SECOND IS PEOPLE TEND TO THINK OF --SCANDINAVIA IS A VERY NICE PLACE TO LIVE.

PEOPLE ARE THERE ARE VERY HAPPY.

BUT IT IS CERTAINLY A MARKET ECONOMY.

IT IS CERTAINLY A CAPITALIST.

IT MIGHT BE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM IN THE SENSE THE SAFETY NET IS VERY, VERY LARGE, BUT THESE ARE COUNTRIES THAT DEPEND ON THE PROSPERITY OF THEIR BUSINESSES IN ORDER TO SUSTAIN THE LIFESTYLE THAT THEY HAVE.

>> YOU'RE BEING VERY NICE NOW, BUT YOU'RE A LITTLE SNARKY IN YOUR PIECE IN THE ATLANTIC.

YOU SAY "CONSUMER SOCIALISM TRIES TO HAVE IT ALL -- UNIVERSAL SOCIAL PROVISIONS WITHOUT UNIVERSALLY STEEP TAXES.

IT REMAINS LIKE OTHER FORMS OF SOCIALISM A SUPREME OPTIMISM OF STATE PLANNERS TO SHAPE MARKETS.

WHERE THE OLD CENTRAL PLANNERS FAILED, THE NEW ONES THINK THEY WILL SUCCEED. "

IS THE NEW DIFFERENCE THAT TAXES ARE HIGH AND THEY THINK THEY CAN CONCENTRATE THE COSTS OF THIS ON A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE, SORE IT SOMETHING ELSE?

>> YEAH, NO.

I THINK THE TAX PROBLEM IS DUE TO THE SCANDINAVIA EXPERIMENT.

RENT FREEZES ARE SOMETHING ALMOST NOW ECONOMIST AGREES IS A GOOD IDEA.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SET PRICES BELOW WHAT THE MARKET WILL SUSTAIN, YOU CAUSE SHORTAGES.

YOU SEE THAT ALREADY IN NEW YORK THERE IS A LOT OF RENT CONTROL IN NEW YORK, A LOT OF RENT STABILIZATION IN NEW YORK THAT HAS NOT MADE PRICES LOWER.

IT HAS ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO STAY IN THEIR UNITS.

SAN FRANCISCO, THIS IS A WELL STUDIED PROGRAM OF RENT CONTROL THAT WAS LAUNCHED.

IT'S A BIT LIKE SQUEEZING A BALLOON.

YOU CAN CAUSE RENTS TO BE LOWER IN SPECIFIC UNITS, BUT EVERYWHERE ELSE RENTS INCREASE.

SO THE SOLUTION TO THE HOUSING AFFORDABILITY CRISIS IS BUILDING MORE HOUSING.

IT'S NOT FREEZING PRICES.

AND SIMILARLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE INTERVENTIONS THAT ARE PLANNED WITH GROCERY STORES, FOR EXAMPLE, GROCERIES ARE VERY COMPETITIVE, VERY LOW MARGIN BUSINESS.

THE PROBLEM WITH AFFORDABILITY AND GROCERIES IS NOT THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY PROFITS.

PROFIT MARGINS ARE 2 OR 3%.

SO THERE IS THIS KIND OF OPTIMISM THAT IF ONLY THE GOVERNMENT COULD INTERVENE IN THESE AFFAIRS AND COULD ONLY SET THINGS, THEN THINGS WOULD WORK PROPERLY.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S GOING TO BE TRUE AT ALL.

>> WHY CAN'T THEY JUST TRY THINGS, THOUGH?

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE IS A REALLY SORT OF A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE ABOUT INNOVATION IN GOVERNMENT THAN WE HAVE ABOUT INNOVATION IN, SAY, TECHNOLOGY FOR EXAMPLE.

DRIVERLESS CARS, RIGHT?

YOU'VE RAISED THAT A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO.

PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE THAT'S CRAZY.

OR THAT'S SOME SCI-FI STUFF.

BUT WE DO IT.

OR AT LEAST IT'S IN THE OFFING.

SO WHY CAN'T PEOPLE SIMILARLY INNOVATE WITH SOMETHING IN GOVERNMENT, OR TRY?

JUST TRY.

>> I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR GOVERNMENT TO FUND BASIC RESEARCH AND ENCOURAGE SCIENTIFIC DEVELOPMENT AND INNOVATION AND ALL THESE KINDS OF IDEAS.

AND ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT AMERICA IS MANY STATES CAN TRY DIFFERENT THINGS, AND WE CAN LEARN THE RESULTS.

AND I GUESS WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE DO HAVE SOME WORK EXAMPLES OF RENT CONTROL IN CITIES AND IT HASN'T WORKED QUITE AS WELL.

WE DO HAVE -- IT'S ONE THING TO INNOVATE WHEN THERE IS A CLEAR FAILURE.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE MILITARY RUNS GROCERY STORES IN ITS OWN BASES BECAUSE THAT IS --IT NEEDS TO DO THAT.

IN RURAL PARTS OF AMERICA, THERE HAVE BEEN EXPERIMENTS WITH GOVERNMENT-RUN GROCERY STORES TO MEET A MARKET FAILURE.

AND I GUESS IN THIS CASE, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH GOVERNMENTAL INNOVATION AND ALL, BUT I DO WANT IT TO RUN IN THE SAME DIRECTION OF WHAT WE'VE LEARNED FROM PRIOR EXPERIMENTS AS OPPOSED TO JUST SAYING, WELL, THIS TIME IT WILL BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE WE HAVE THE RIGHT INTENTIONS AND THE RIGHT WILL.

>> HOUSING IS A BIG PART OF YOUR ARGUMENT.

HOUSING AND SUPPLY IS ESSENTIAL TO THAT, RIGHT?

BUT THAT TAKES A LONG TIME.

YOU CAN'T JUST THROW UP HOUSING, AND PEOPLE NEED RELIEF.

NOW WHAT'S SO TERRIBLE ABOUT OFFERING A SHORT-TERM SOLUTION WHILE YOU'RE DEVELOPING A LONG-TERM --A LONG-TERM ANSWER.

>> YEAH, SO THIS IS AN ARGUMENT PEOPLE MAKE THAT ONE MAMDANI HAS PROMISED, GEORGE IN WASHINGTON, D. C. HAS PROMISED IS YES, THERE WILL BE RENT FREEZES NOW, BUT THIS IS GOING TO BE AN EXCHANGE.

AS YOU SAID, WE'RE GOING BUILD A LOT MORE HOUSING AND WE'RE GOING FIX THINGS THIS MARKETIZED WHICH.

WHAT I WOULD SAY IS IF THAT DOES HAPPEN, THAT WILL AT LEAST BE HALF GOOD.

IF THIS IS A TEMPORARY MEASURE ONLY TO GET US TO THE POINT WHERE WE BUILD ENOUGH HOUSING THAT PRICES SETTLE ON THEIR OWN, THAT COULD BE GOOD.

BUT MY WORRY IS THAT IT IS VERY EASY TO FREEZE THE RENT.

THAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED IN NEW YORK.

IT IS MUCH HARDER TO ACTUALLY GET THE GEARS OF GOVERNMENT UNWOUND SO THAT YOU CAN BUILD MORE HOUSING.

AND TO, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, HASN'T REALLY STARTED HAPPENING IN NEW YORK.

AS YOU SAY, IT TAKES TIME THAT WOULD BE MY WORRY.

THESE PROBLEMS HAVE BUILT UP OVER 30, 40 YEARS.

THEY ARE ENCODED IN THE LAWS OF CITIES THAT MAKE IT VERY, VERY HARD TO BUILD.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE TEMPORARY MEASURE I WORRY WORKS AS A ONE-WAY RATCHET.

SO WHAT IS IMPOSED TODAY, YOU SEE THIS WITH NEW YORK'S RENT CONTROLS HAVE, EXTENSIVE.

THEY'RE VERY HARD TO DIAL BACK IN THE FUTURE.

>> CHILD CARE.

WHAT ABOUT THAT?

>> THE SOCIALISTS LIKE MAMDANI, GEORGE, DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS, ET CETERA, THEY OFFER -- THEY WANT UNIVERSAL CHILD CARE, AND THEY WANT IT TO BE 7% IS THE MAXIMUM THAT EVERY FAMILY WOULD PAY.

AND BEYOND THAT, THE GOVERNMENT WOULD SUBSIDIZE THAT.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH THE DESIGN OF THE POLICY AS WELL.

SO QUEBEC, FOR EXAMPLE, IMPLEMENTING UNIVERSAL CHILD CHILD CARE THAT IS FREE, TO THE POINT OF DOLLARS PER DAY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DID GET CHILD CARE, AND FEMALE LABOR SUPPLY, THE AMOUNT OF WOMEN WORKING IN THE WORKFORCE INCREASE A LOT.

WHAT WE ALSO SAW IN THE LONG RUN IS THE KIDS WHO WENT TO THE PROGRAMS HAD NEGATIVE OUTCOMES.

THEY HAD WORSE BEHAVIOR.

THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO GO TO JAIL.

THEY HAD WORSE EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES.

WHY WAS THAT?

BECAUSE THE QUALITY OF THE CARE THAT WAS GIVEN WAS NOT HIGH ENOUGH TO IMPROVE THEIR LIFE OUTCOMES.

>> BUT THE MAIN ARGUMENT YOU MAKE IS A LOT OF THE PROGRAMS THAT BENEFIT END UP BENEFITTING MIDDLE AND UPPER INCOME FAMILIES MORE THAN THE PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP, OR PERHAPS NEED THAT HELP THE MOST.

BUT THE OTHER ARGUMENT THERE IS THAT'S HOW YOU CREATE BUY-IN.

THERE ARE SOCIAL PROGRAMS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT EVERYBODY PAYS INTO AND EVERYBODY BENEFITS FROM, YOU KNOW, LIKE SOCIAL SECURITY.

AND PART OF THE REASON IT HAS THE KIND OF SUPPORT THAT IT HAS, IT'S SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY FEELS INVESTED IN BECAUSE EVERYBODY PARTICIPATES IN IT, RIGHT.

SO THAT'S THE ARGUMENT.

PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH THE ARGUMENT IS THAT THIS COUNTRY IS LACKING SOCIAL COHESION AT THE MOMENT.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> SO LET ME ANSWER IN A SLIGHT SLIGHTLY TANGENTIAL WAY.

ONE THING I BELIEVE AMERICA HAS TOO MUCH OF AND COULD AMELIORATE QUITE EASILY IS CHILD POVERTY.

>> UH-HUH.

>> SO THE NUMBER OF KIDS WHO LIVE IN POVERTY IN THIS COUNTRY IS EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH GIVEN SO RICH WE ARE.

THE SOLUTION TO THAT THAT A LOT OF THE ECONOMISTS LIKE THAT I BELIEVE IN IS EXPAND CHILD TAX CREDIT, BASICALLY, A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF CASH GIVEN TO FAMILIES THAT ENABLES THEM TO LIVE ABOVE THE POVERTY LEVEL.

WE EXPERIMENTED WITH THAT DURING THE BIDEN YEARS.

IN 2021, WE PASSED THE EXPANDED CHILD TAX CREDIT, WHICH HAD THE EFFECT OF SLASHING CHILD POVERTY IN HALF.

AND TO MY MIND, THAT WAS GREAT AS PUBLIC POLICY OUTCOME.

WHAT I WAS EXTREMELY SURPRISED BY IS HOW UNPOPULAR THAT PROGRAM WAS.

THROUGHOUT ITS EXISTENCE, IT WAS NOT CONSIDERED A VERY POPULAR PROGRAM.

IT WAS SEEN AS TOO MUCH SPENDING, AND THAT DISAPPOINTED ME BECAUSE I THINK THE OUTCOMES WERE VERY CLEAR, VERY IMMEDIATELY OBSERVABLE.

BUT IT GOT TRAPPED IN THE KIND OF PARTISAN DIVIDE THAT SO MANY THINGS DO.

AND I GUESS I WONDER IF THIS POLICY WOULD SUFFER THE SAME FATE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, FOR ME, DIFFERENT FAMILIES OF DIFFERENT DESIRES FOR HOW THEY WANT CARE TO BE DONE.

SOME WANT A CENTER-BASED CARE THAT ALLOWS -- THAT REQUIRES PAYMENT.

SOME WOULD PREFER A GRANDMOTHER OR PAYMENT TO TAKE CARE OF THIS PERSON.

IN MY VIEW, IF PEOPLE SAY THAT THEY WANT CHILDREN TO BE TAKEN CARE OF BY RELATIVES BECAUSE THEY HAVE ONE NEARBY, THAT WE SHOULDN'T ONLY FORCE THE SUBSIDIES INTO CENTER-BASED CARE, AND WE SHOULD ALSO OFFER AT LEAST AN EQUIVALENT AMOUNT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY USING RELATIVES TO CARE FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

>> IT JUST IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE THING ABOUT THESE CANDIDATES, AS FLAWED AS YOU MAY THINK THEIR PROGRAMMATIC IDEAS ARE, AT LEAST THEY'RE ASKING THE QUESTIONS.

AND WHY IS IT WE AREN'T AS A SOCIETY ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS MORE BROADLY.

WHY CAN'T THEY ASK THESE BIGGER QUESTIONS?

>> I THINK THEY CAN ASK THESE QUESTIONS, AND I CAN CRITIQUE THEM.

I THINK THAT THE ANSWERS THEY ARE POSING TO THESE AFFORDABILITY QUESTIONS I DON'T THINK WILL BE THE FINAL SOLUTIONS, AND I THINK THEY HAVE THE RISK OF MAKING THINGS WORSE.

AND THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW, THE INTERVENTIONS IN THE HOUSING MARKET, ET CETERA, IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT IS ALREADY EXPENSIVE, AND YOU JUST IMPOSE A SUBSIDY, AND YOU DON'T CONSIDER EXPANSIONS OF SUPPLY, WHAT YOU WILL DO IS INCREASE THE PRICE THAT IS PAID BOTH BY THE GOVERNMENT AND EVENTUALLY BY ORDINARY PEOPLE.

AND SO THESE INTERVENTIONS I THINK ARE ATTRACTIVE, BUT I DON'T THINK ULTIMATELY THEY ARE THE RIGHT POLICY SOLUTIONS.

>> THE OTHER QUESTION I HAVE IS YOU FOCUSED ON THE CITIES, BECAUSE THE CITY LEADERS AND POTENTIAL CITY LEADERS ARE THE ONES POSING THEM.

BUT YOU ALSO RAISED THE BIDEN ERA CHILD TAX CREDIT INCREASE, WHICH SUGGESTS IF YOU BROADEN THESE IDEAS OUT, THAT YOU CAN HAVE MORE SUCCESSFUL OUTCOMES.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S NOT HAPPENING, OR AT LEAST IT'S NOT HAPPENING AT THE MOMENT?

IS IT THE LABEL LIKE SOCIALISM IS SO DEMEANED, HAS SUCH A NEGATIVE CONNOTATION IN THIS COUNTRY THAT PEOPLE AREN'T WILLING TO DISCUSS THESE THINGS?

WHAT'S YOUR THEORY ABOUT IT?

>> SO I THINK THAT ON SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS, YOU DON'T NEED A SOCIALISM LABEL.

AND ACTUALLY, A LOT OF REGIONAL WILL BE GOOD.

HOUSING, FOR EXAMPLE.

NEW YORK CITY EXISTS IN A REGION, NEW JERSEY, ET CETERA, WEST CHESTER, ALL THOSE PLACES.

AND IF BUILDING ONLY HAPPENS IN ONE OF THOSE PLACE, BUT WEST CHESTER SAYS WE'RE NOT BUILDING ANYMORE, THAT'S A PROBLEM, RIGHT.

SO IN THAT CASE YOU DO NEED A REGIONAL COME PAT IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THE HOUSING PROBLEM.

SAME WITH SAN FRANCISCO, MARIN COUNTY, AND THE PLACES THAT SURROUND IT THERE.

SO I THINK THAT ACTUALLY YOU WOULD.

YOU WOULD ACTUALLY IMPROVE THINGS A LOT IF YOU SAID THAT WE ARE GOING TO BIND HOUSING POLICY DECISIONS AND MAKE THESE COUNTIES BUILD MORE HOUSING.

AND THAT THAT WOULD GO A LONG WAY TO FIXING A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO BE A SOCIALIST OR A CAPITALIST OR EVEN TO ARGUE ABOUT THESE THINGS.

BUT THAT WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF EFFECTIVE POLICY MAKE.

>> IF YOUR PIECE, YOU LOOK AT EARLIER MOMENTS WHEN GOVERNMENT TRIED TO MAKE EVERYDAY LIFE MORE AFFORDABLE, ACTUALLY MAKE THE QUALITY OF LIFE BETTER, FOR MORE PEOPLE THROUGH EXPANDED SOCIAL PROGRAMS, OR AT LEAST WHAT DID YOU CALL IT?

SEWER SOCIALISM WHERE PEOPLE ACTUALLY FOCUSED ON FIXING BASIC THINGS LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE.

ARE THERE LESSONS YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE COULD DRAW FROM THE ERAS IN WHICH OR THE PROJECTS THAT WERE SUCCESSFUL, THAT THEY COULD IMPLEMENT NOW?

>> YEAH.

THE SEWER SOCIALISTS WERE IN CHARGE OF MILWAUKEE FOR A LONG TIME.

AND THEY WERE QUITE POPULAR.

THEY WERE IN GOVERNMENT FOR 40 YEARS.

THEY FOCUSED ON BUILDING PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE.

SEWER SYSTEM FAMOUSLY, BUT ALSO LIBRARIES, ET CETERA.

I THINK THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL ENOUGH THAT ALL OF THEIR IDEAS DON'T SEEM PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, KIND OF CRAZY OR CONTROVERSIAL TODAY.

AND I GUESS, YOU KNOW, FOR ME PERSONALLY, I THOUGHT THAT THE EXPANSIONS OF THE GREAT SOCIETY UNDER LYNDON JOHNSON ARE PROBABLY THE BIGGEST STEP FORWARD THE COUNTRY HAS TAKEN IN DEALING WITH POVERTY, AND DEALING WITH THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE WHO DON'T MAKE AS MUCH MONEY HAVE DEALT WITH.

AND I GUESS ONE REASON THAT I HAVE TAKEN AGAINST THE ARGUMENTS THAT ARE BEING MADE TODAY IS THAT I DON'T SEE THEM AS VERY IN LINE WITH GREAT SOCIETY THINKING.

THEY'RE NOT AS LASER-FOCUSED ON PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY GOING THROUGH POVERTY AND THE WORKING CLASS AND WHAT THEY ACTUALLY NEED.

AND IN PART BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU SUBSIDIZE, IF YOU FREEZE RENT, YOU'RE FREEZING RENT ON A PLACE.

YOU'RE NOT FREEZING RENT FOR A PERSON.

SIMILARLY, IF YOU SAY THAT THE GROCERY STORE IS CHEAPER, WE HAVE THE FOOD STAMPS PROGRAM THAT'S QUITE SUCCESSFUL.

SOME STATES DO HAVE TOP-UPS.

IF WHAT YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT IS PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM NOT DOING WELL ENOUGH, THAT TO ME SEEMS LIKE A BETTER FOCUS FOR GOVERNMENT AND ONE THAT'S A BIT MORE SUSTAINABLE, WHEREAS I THINK THAT THE NEW FOCUS IS ON HOW DO WE ELIMINATE OR AT LEAST CUSHION THE COSTS OF LIFE FOR, YOU KNOW, MIDDLE -- UPPER MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS AS WELL.

AND THERE I THINK IF YOU'RE GOING TAX WIDELY ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO DO IT, THEN IT'S SUSTAINABLE.

BUT IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO EVEN ADMIT THAT, I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO.

>> SO BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, IF THERE IS ONE THING THAT YOU WOULD ASK POLICYMAKERS TO FOCUS ON, WHAT WOULD IT BE, AND HOW WOULD YOU WANT THEM TO APPROACH IT?

>> SO JUST GENERALLY, WHEN THEY APPROACH POLICY, I THINK THAT THEY HAVE TO ALWAYS CONSIDER THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS.

YOU ESTABLISH A POLICY GOAL.

YOU SAY OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO SUBSIDIZE, WE'RE GOING TO RELIEVE ALL STUDENT DEBT.

WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF THAT ACTION?

WHAT IS THE --YOU KNOW, IN THE LONG RUN, WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACCRUED THIS DEBT NO LONGER PAY IT COMPARED TO PEOPLE WHO DID PAY IT.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

SO I THINK THAT THAT IS THE FIRST THING THAT I WOULD ARGUE.

AND THEN THE SECOND ON A CONCRETE POLICY MATTER IS A LOT OF THIS DYSFUNCTION IS ROOTED IN HOUSING, AND THE SOLUTION TO HOUSING BEING EXPENSIVE IS TO BUILD MORE OF IT.

AND THAT'S JUST AN ECONOMIC LAW OF GRAVITY.

AND YOU CAN TRY TO, YOU KNOW, LEGISLATE WAYS TO FIGHT AGAINST IT, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING WIN.

I THINK THAT'S --YOU KNOW, MAYBE IF THERE IS ONE PIECE OF ADVICE THAT I GIVE, IT'S THAT.

>> IDREES KAHLOON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND FINALLY, ABOVE AND BEYOND, 97-YEAR-OLD BRITISH WOMAN HAS BROKEN HER OWN GUINNESS WORLD RECORD FOR THE OLDEST FEMALE WING WALKER, STRAPPING HERSELF TO THE TOP OF A BIPLANE FOR THE SIXTH TIME, YES, SIXTH.

BETTY BROMAGE FIRST SET THE RECORD FOUR YEARS AGO WHEN SHE WAS A SPRITELY 93.

THE FLIGHT RAISED MONEY FOR THE STROKE UNIT AT THE HOSPITAL WHERE SHE WAS TREATED LAST YEAR.

WAY TO GO.

I LOVE THIS STORY.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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