♪ ♪ ♪ >> Bakari Sellers -- CNN commentator, national and global influencer, one of America's future leaders, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪ ♪ >> Here on "The Chavis Chronicles," we're very pleased to welcome Bakari T. Sellers.

>> Thank you for having me.

It's a privilege to be here, and it's a privilege to be in your presence.

Thank you to "The Chavis Chronicles" for having this country boy up here in the big city.

>> Well, thank you, man.

Well, you know, country boys make a big difference in the city.

>> [ Laughs ] That's right.

>> And, listen, Bakari -- you're a CNN commentator, you're a distinguished lawyer.

At 22 years old, you get elected to the state House in South Carolina, one of the youngest elected officials ever in the history of our country, and you're really on top of a lot of these issues.

I want to get into them, but I first want people to know your family, the Sellers family.

Originally from South Carolina?

>> Yeah, so, my family is rooted deeply in the movement.

My father got involved in 1955, like many people of his generation.

>> Yes.

>> Around the death of Emmett Till.

>> Emmett Till.

>> Yeah, he's a part of that Emmett Till generation.

A lot like you have the Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown generation of today.

You know, he came up here to Howard and befriended a young man named Stokely Carmichael, and the rest, as they say, is history.

>> Exactly.

>> He joined SNCC, led one of the searches for Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney in Philadelphia, Mississippi.

And then February 8th, 1968, when he went back to South Carolina to help organize and, you know, no one could have imagined that on that night, 3 young men -- Henry Smith, Samuel Hammond, and Delano Middleton -- would have been killed.

>> 3 were killed and 27 were wounded.

>> Including my father.

My father was one of them.

>> He was shot in his shoulder.

>> He was shot in the shoulder.

And the unique part about that from just a pure jurisprudence standpoint is that all of the officers who fired shots into the group of students were charged, and it was the first time in our country's history that law enforcement was charged with federal civil rights crimes.

Of course, they were all found not guilty, and my father -- >> But the fact that they were charged made history.

>> That was a footnote in our country's history.

And then, uniquely enough, my father was charged with five felony counts, looking at a maximum of 75 years.

They "misplaced" the evidence, backdated the indictment from February 8th to February 6th, then my father was charged, tried, and convicted of rioting.

He became the first and only one-man riot in the history of this country.

>> Sentenced to a year in prison?

>> Hard labor, as they called it.

And the unique thing -- one of the other kind of nuances is that, you know, my father will tell you that the greatest sacrifice he had to make was not being in jail, per se, but it was in being in jail for the birth of my big sister.

My sister's name is Nosizwe Abademe in Swahili.

>> Yes.

>> And Abademe means "born while father is away."

She was born while my father was in prison.

And so just that people oftentimes do not understand the scars of the movement that families still carry today.

>> Yes.

>> And I remind people that my mother had to go through a pregnancy and give birth by herself because the state of South Carolina took my father away.

My father came out of prison with a felony -- Black man with a felony in the south.

So my mother had to make those ends meet, and the difficult times my family went through are all scars that we still carry today, but we've overcome.

And so, you know, that's the movement encapsulated.

>> Right, but Bakari, those scars are also badges of honor.

>> Oh, no doubt.

>> And listen, man, your father wrote a book -- The River of No Return.

>> Yes.

>> While he was incarcerated.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Unjustly, and didn't he wind up becoming a college president?

>> Yeah.

In between my father's arrest and his imprisonment, you know, he went and got a degree from Harvard, and I joked that, you know, he's probably the only person on the yard with a degree from Harvard at the time.

But he and my mom, they both, just like a lot of parents during that generation, taught their children to have this insatiable desire to learn as much as possible.

>> Exactly.

>> And my parents said that we could go to any college we wanted to go to, but we had to go to college, and we had to go to an HBCU.

>> Right.

>> And so -- >> Well, shout out to your mother for sticking with your father through all of that.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Because a lot of -- You know how the movement is, man.

It puts a lot of stress on the families of the activists.

>> No question, and, you know, my mother is one of the strongest people I know.

She had to go through that and deal with that.

But she wasn't -- Her family was middle class.

They weren't too necessarily keen on the movement, but they were aware of the movement.

You know, like a lot of Black families... >> Sure.

>> ...Throughout the south.

But she was a part of the desegregating class of her high school, at Hamilton High School in Memphis, Tennessee, and so we -- you know, that history, that family history is there on both sides.

>> I was going to tell you a little anecdotal story.

February the 8th, 1968, was the Orangeburg Massacre.

Your father was wounded.

So, several months later, I have the privilege of driving your father, Cleveland Sellers, and Stokely Carmichael.

>> Oh, Lord.

>> From Charlotte to Greensboro.

Stokely had to speak at A&T.

And I had the privilege of welcoming them to UNC at Charlotte.

I was a student, college student at Charlotte, activist, you know.

So, all of us had big afros.

>> [ Laughs ] Those two, Stokely Carmichael and Cleveland Sellers, were more than buddies, they were comrades in the struggle.

>> Well, you know, for me, growing up a child of the movement and being able to touch and talk to and call them uncle, and them be there for me has been, you know, one of the blessings of my life.

And it's the reason I'm able to sit here on your show today.

But it was Stokely, it was Uncle Julian -- Julian Bond.

It was Marion Barry.

>> Yes.

>> You know, I firmly believe Marion Barry is the greatest city mayor in the history of the country, and, you know, we don't let people talk bad about Marion in our family, after everything that he did for Black folks.

>> There are thousands and thousands -- hundreds of thousands of residents of DC who would affirm that today.

>> Well, I mean, he created -- he's one of the few individuals who's taken leadership of the city and created a whole middle class full of Black folks.

>> Right.

>> You know, and the lessons that they taught me, from, you know, what Fannie Lou and Ella Baker had taught them, which has helped, you know, mold my outlook and prepare me to go in the courtroom or prepare me to go into CNN today.

>> What's your perspective, Bakari?

There's so many predictions in mainstream media that even though the browning of America is continuing to go, it's as if that we're being displaced -- gentrification on the one hand.

And then at a time we should have record voter turnout, all this voter suppression is going on.

>> COVID has exposed the systemic inequities we have in our communities, and it's a golden opportunity for us to spend time talking about these inequities and how we fix those problems.

When you have communities that don't have access to clean water, when you have communities that don't have access to a hospital or quality healthcare, that you have food deserts, that you're breathing in or inhaling polluted air from brown fields, that you have these preventable illnesses that you see -- the cardiovascular diseases, the diabetes -- and then you overlay that with the pandemic, you see why Black folk have been the population to die at a higher rate and suffer those economic losses, as well.

This pandemic has ravaged our communities, both from a public health and economic perspective, and I think we need to utilize this moment to talk about those underlying issues.

So that's one.

Two, we're also having these very interesting -- unfortunately, they become infantile conversations around the issue of race.

You know, one of the blessings of the Trump administration, whether or not people believe it or not, is that we ain't had no choice but to talk about race, right?

Because when you have an administration that uses racism as a political currency, you have to talk about those systemic issues.

But the conversation has just been asinine at best, and you can appreciate this, Dr. Chavis.

But it's pushed to the forefront after you have Breonna, Ahmaud, and George.

And so, you -- right now, you asked a good question kind of about, you know, where are we in this country?

And we're at a precipice.

We're kind of at a fork in the road, whereby we can continue to educate young people about the history of this country, about how far we've come in this country.

>> Your book that you wrote in 2020, "My Vanishing Country," what led to that book?

>> It's crazy, because I didn't think anybody wanted a memoir from somebody 32.

>> Became a bestseller.

>> Yeah, 32-33 years old.

Shout out to Tracy Sherrod, who was the editor at Amistad Publishing House, who set me down over a two-hour breakfast in New York and told me, you know, to tell my story.

And you know this, but my life has been bookended by tragedy, from, you know, the Orangeburg massacre, which happened before I was born but is the most important day of my life, all the way through, you know, 2015, in the Charleston Massacre, when my friend Clem and 8 others were killed in Mother Emmanuel AME Church.

And so you have these bookends of tragedy, which I don't find myself to be, you know, atypical.

This is the Negro experience in America.

And then the political successes I've had and failures that I've had, and just being a millennial and growing up during this time.

And the book came out -- and you will appreciate this more than most -- it came out May 19th, which, as we know, is Malcolm X's birthday.

And 6 days before the death of George Floyd.

And it was a book that I think people could be proud of because it told those untold stories, a lot like what you do here on the "Chronicles."

I wanted to tell the stories about the Black women who sit on the front two rows of the church, who wear the big hats, who when you hug them, you smell like Chanel all day, and they use two sticks of butter in they pies.

And then I wanted to tell the stories about the men who served in Vietnam and they sit in the barbershop all day long, every day, not getting their hair cut, but telling you about why Muhammad Ali would beat Mike Tyson, and how, you know, when King came through town.

But this is the backbone of this country.

They built this country with their hands, and I wanted to be able to tell their stories too, so.

You know, it was an awesome opportunity, and it's a book that's been evergreen and been able to stand the test of time.

>> Well, those narratives are so important, and, you know, you're not only a great lawyer, but you're a good writer.

>> Well... >> Having to communicate those stories is so important.

You know, I tell people all the time -- we're not a cursed people, we're a blessed people.

But how to articulate our blessing sometimes becomes a challenge.

>> But you appreciate this, and this is why you having this platform and me being able to come on this platform is so important, because you touched on it.

Well, there are two points I want to make.

One, we have to own our story, because if we don't, then people will tell you that Dr. King came down to this country, won a Nobel Peace Prize, and told you to judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin, and then he died in his sleep.

They don't tell you about the revolutionary that was King.

The freedom fighter who was fighting for wages in Memphis, Tennessee -- the person who had a lower approval rating than Donald Trump at his death.

They don't talk about that person, so we have to control our narrative and tell our story.

And two, griots.

You know, we are -- >> All the way from Africa.

>> We -- You know, that's what we do.

We tell our story, and I encourage people who are seasoned and of a certain age to write notes and write in journals, because your story, Dr. Chavis, is one that needs to be taught and needs to be read about.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm sitting in front of you, but it helps us understand the full -- >> We're working on the Wilmington Ten story.

>> There you go.

>> We're working on it.

>> It works on the full -- It teaches us the full context of our history, and gives us motivation to move forward.

>> Now, you also -- You have 3 children.

>> Yes.

>> So you've written this beautiful book that also now has become a bestseller.

>> [ Laughs ] Yeah.

>> Tell us about your children's book.

>> Yeah, Who Are Your People?

Because you know, from down south, the first question they ask you is who are your people.

>> Who are your people?

>> Because they want to know whether or not you -- what type of stock you come from.

Whether or not your daddy went to church or your daddy stole, right?

So they just want to know who you are.

And Who Are Your People?

is an opportunity where it's -- it was pretty cool because I got a chance to walk my children through the pages of history, and they got a chance to learn about their people.

One of the stories we do tell and one of the stories that hits home from you, on the pages of the book, is February 1st, 1960.

>> Yes.

>> On the Woolworth's lunch counter.

>> Greensboro, North Carolina.

>> Greensboro, North Carolina.

Those young men and women who sat down, and I believe the New York Times called it "soil that was fertile for dissent."

And so we shared that story.

We shared the stories of cotton fields, but we also talk about the heroes -- from Barack Obama to Mary McLeod Bethune to Muhammad Ali, to Kamala and Stacey.

And I just wanted young kids to be able to read it and see themselves in the book.

>> You know, a study has come out that's showed that young people today are less prejudiced than their parents or their grandparents.

I've read something about how your book is really spreading, not only among African American children, but children of all ethnic and backgrounds can benefit from stories like you put in your book.

>> Because I think that one of the major problems we have in this country is that we have an empathy deficit.

And when kids -- when White kids are able to read about where the person that they're playing in the sandbox with came from, it makes for a better relationship, and I think if we take time to learn more -- and maybe this is some of that unconditional love that King used to preach about all the time -- but if we take time to learn more about our neighbor and meet them where they are, then I think we can have more fruitful relationships.

>> Well, I hope your book doesn't get banned.

>> Well, it may, you know.

>> This critical race theory debate.

>> Right now, you have people trying to ban Michelle Obama's book.

I mean, it's just -- it is -- for me, it's -- we're at a dangerous, perilous time, where you and I are talking about how we educate people, and then there are people who don't want you to tell the story of the Wilmington Ten, Who don't want you to tell the story of the Little Rock Nine, who don't want you to tell the story about Orangeburg.

And we're like, "We're not trying to make you feel guilty, we're just trying to talk to you through the lens of where this country has been so we can understand where we're going.

>> It appears that the American economy is slowly coming back.

>> Yeah.

>> After COVID.

And I know you do a lot of work on the economic sphere, as well as the legal sphere.

What do you -- What's your prediction about diversity and equity inclusion?

I know all of corporate America now, they're hiring vice presidents for diversity, vice presidents for equity.

>> We have to be very cautious.

>> Is this really about inclusiveness?

>> We have to be cautious, and I don't like a VP of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion who's just there in name and title, who reports to the CEO once a month and has the illusion of inclusion.

>> Right.

>> And, you know, it's one thing for these companies and corporations to give organizations money.

That's fine, we'll take the money, but they haven't change their corporate culture.

Their board is still non-diverse.

Their executive committees are still non-diverse.

And so you have to change within your walls before you can effectuate change in the community.

But along the lines of the community, one of the things this Biden administration has tried to do is put money in the streets, to repair many of the things that were broken during the era of COVID.

The biggest indictment on this administration, though is I'm not sure they understand the pain that many Black folk and poor folk in this country are feeling.

There's a disconnect.

My father was just complaining to me the other day about the price of flounder and whiting at the Piggly Wiggly.

That's a very real pain.

It's gone up, you know.

And I -- It's also led to people committing crimes -- crimes of survival.

You know, I was speaking to a young man named Wax, who is a friend of Charlamagne tha God, and Wax said, "Now, you don't even have to be rich to get robbed, you just have to have more than the other person."

And it's that mentality because of that pain that we have in our streets, because of poverty, because of the societal pressures, etcetera, and I'm not sure what happens here in Washington, DC -- if people truly understand or have that level of empathy for what's happening in southeast DC and everywhere else.

>> How do you see these new rounds of voter suppression?

Why do you think there's an all-out effort to keep people from voting?

>> Well, it's depressing and frustrating, because I know the price you paid, I know the price that others paid so that we could actually have that freedom.

I think about George Elmore a lot, from South Carolina, who filed the suit of Elmore vs. Rice so that the Black folk could vote in primaries through the south, and everything he went through.

And it's just -- It's frustrating that even Strom Thurmond voted to reauthorize the Voting Rights Act.

In 1981-82, the leader of the Republicans, to reauthorize the Voting Rights Act, was Bob Dole.

And right now, we can't get 10 Republicans to get on board.

>> Why do you think that's the case?

We're going in reverse of history.

>> We are.

>> Rather than a progression of history.

>> We are, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that one of the things that Donald Trump showed the Republican Party is that there is a base of voters right now who you can win over with fear and you can win over with White grievance politics.

And the fear is that somehow, people of color in this country -- Black folk, immigrants, what have you -- are replacing them.

And Stephen Miller, etcetera, that browning of America -- they utilize that fear as a tool.

And they also know that, you know, the fewer people that vote, the better chance they have to win.

When you have elections like we had in 2022 -- I mean, 2020, excuse me -- that's not a recipe for success for the Republican Party.

So, that's just where we are, and to be honest, I think we need -- we're not electing the best people, on either side.

People ask me all the time about -- >> Not only federally, but at state, because a lot of this stuff, the state legislators -- >> The state legislatures.

I mean, when you look at some of these state legislatures -- North Carolina, South Carolina.

>> Right.

>> I mean, you just look at the leadership there and how they are operating in a 1940-50 mindset.

>> Same thing in Florida, Texas, Georgia.

>> Yeah, you named all southern states, too.

I mean, and so, we have to really, really analyze the fact that the majority of the change we want to see is not made here at these beautiful buildings that are here on your screen, but instead, are made in our state capitols and city halls.

>> Yeah, listen, man, you already have been a former state legislator.

You're on national TV almost every day.

You're a best-selling author.

What's the future of Bakari T. Sellers?

>> That's a good question, man.

I got started -- I mean, I really want to be a great father, and that's because of the example that was set in my household.

So that's first.

Second, I love politics, it's just that Washington DC and the stagnant nature of it is just so unappetizing.

I mean, showing up to work every day with Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Madison Cawthorn -- I mean, that just don't sound fun to me.

We'll evaluate that when Jim Clyburn decides to retire, but right now, that seat is in good hands, and so right now, we're just going to continue to do the things we do and utilize the platform we have.

We have some cool things coming up at CNN.

Writing some more books.

I'm trying to get you all's story -- the heroes of the movement -- trying to get those stories told in Hollywood, and we'll see what happens.

>> How do you see technology -- the innovations in technology contributing to more effective social justice movements?

>> Oh, I mean, right now, you remember that Black Lives Matter started with a hashtag, right?

On social media.

Right now, the images that we see that come out of the streets help us when we talk about criminal justice reform.

So, social media is -- And they are where voters are.

I mean, there's an entire generation of voter that, you know, isn't going to watch us.

They don't watch CNN, alright?

But they are going to be on Snapchat, and they are going to be on TikTok, and if you want to contact them or reach them, you have to reach them on Instagram, Snapchat, and TikTok.

They are the future of this country.

And so, I do want to see regulation of some of these big tech companies, because when you have pervasive, destructive influences that spread misinformation, like we've seen with Facebook.

That is dangerous to our democracy, and I think regulation needs to be there.

But it's the new frontier.

It's where change is, and it's where you and I, we have to learn how to operate so that we can talk to a whole new generation of listeners and voters.

>> How do you see the youth of today?

Not just Black youth, I'm talking about all youth in America.

>> Exciting.

Generation Z is the most exciting generation.

I mean, they're more exciting than we were.

I mean, they are just -- they're so dope because, you know, they are brilliant, and they're utilizing technology in a way that we never would have imagined.

They're utilizing technology in a way to learn, to connect, to build movements.

And this new generation, the Parkland Kids, etcetera, have -- they've come out and changed gun laws in this country, on a state, local, and national level.

They're being a part of the process.

You see them running for office.

You see them organizing.

They're holding their elected officials accountable, so I think we're in good hands.

The only thing we have to do, I think, is better educate them about the struggles of your generation and the generations before it, because there's somewhat of a disconnect.

>> Right.

>> And teach them about those movement tactics and things that they can learn from.

But other than that, we're in good hands.

>> I detect a sense of optimism.

>> Yeah.

>> In your viewpoints.

From your soul and from your heart and from your family tradition, what do you think is the most important lesson that ball Americans could learn from our history?

>> There's nothing irredeemable about the United States of America.

We just have to reimagine what she looks like.

We were once a people and a country of dreamers, who dreamed of things that were not yet seen, and for us, and for many of us, that dream was equality, that dream was justice, that dream was love.

And I believe those words are verbs.

I don't believe they're some esoteric, intangible idea, but I believe -- >> Dr. King certainly believed that love was a verb.

>> And justice is a verb, too.

And I still hold true to those beliefs, and I will not be jaded by reality, and in my house, my kids will know that love is real and justice is real, and they will dream with their eyes open.

And I think one day, we'll get to, finally, where this country cashes that bounced check they've been giving us for so long.

>> Bakari T. Sellers.

>> [ Laughs ] >> Thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you for everything you have done, you are doing, and everything you will do.

♪ >> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪