>> I'm Dr.

Benjamin F. Chavis Jr and this is "The Chavis Chronicles.

>> It's okay to stand on your principles.

It's okay to be courageous, forward-thinking.

But understand the consequences sometimes of speaking out for what is right.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry.

Learn more, api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

>> We welcome Beth Hopkins, one of our leading attorneys, one of our leading civil-rights activists.

>> Thank you, Dr.

Ben.

It is my pleasure to be here and an honor to be in your presence.

>> Some people's legacy gets talked about after they passed on.

But we can talk about your legacy in the real time today.

Tell us about how you first got involved at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

>> Well, that's a story in and of itself, Dr.

Ben.

I was actually heading to Reed College in Portland, Oregon.

And during the summer of 1969, two Wake Forest students came by my house.

One was a childhood friend from Richmond, and the other was his friend from Wake Forest.

And they explained to me at the time -- this is June before my fall year now -- >> Yes.

>> -- that Wake Forest was looking for Black women who could compete academically.

So they went to the admissions counselor or the director at that time, and before I knew it, I was on my way to Wake Forest.

And, you know, I just was on a trajectory that I did not anticipate.

>> For our viewers, Wake Forest University is a major university in North Carolina.

And of course all Southern schools in the 1960s was going through somewhat of a transformation, not only the student body, but athletes, faculty.

You know, when you first arrived at Wake Forest, how would you characterize the diversity?

>> Less than stellar.

There were maybe 20 Black students on campus, with a student population that was 1,500, you know, or better, when you're talking the graduate school.

And so we were like little spots, you know, on the spectrum.

But what was significant about our group is that we hung tough together.

And that's the way we were able to make it through school.

And we relied upon the students who had come before us, because as you well know, there were professors who were not interested in having people of color on the campus and really doubted whether we were academically prepared to compete.

And Dr.

Ben, to me, that was insulting, that they thought that we would come to a school to fail or to be less than stellar.

We were all students who had fathers in the home who worked.

And this was found to be amazing to some of the students that we encountered.

They were surprised.

And I'm being very honest.

'Cause you've been there.

You know I'm telling the truth.

They were surprised that we had table etiquette, that we knew how to conjugate the verb "to be," and we knew how to compete.

Because our motto was that nobody was going to outwork us.

And together, we formed a bond that exists over 50 years later.

We still are in touch with one another, as I'm sure you are.

>> Right.

>> Your college friends.

>> Yes.

>> And the bonding was just tremendous.

Now, I missed not going to my parents' school, Virginia Union.

I missed that.

I missed going to Howard.

I miss going to Spelman.

But on the other hand, what I discovered was that there was a plan for me.

And we'll talk about that in a few minutes.

And I just had to submit to the plan, which I didn't want to do in the beginning of my career, my quest to become a lawyer.

>> After finishing Wake Forest, had you already made a decision you were going into law, or is that something -- >> I made the decision to go into law when I was 12 years old.

And that was because I grew up in volatile Petersburg, Virginia.

You're well-aware what was going on around Virginia State then College at the time.

And my parents were very involved in the civil-rights struggle.

Their friends were.

The neighborhood was.

The community was.

The Church was.

So that's all I knew, was how to fight, what was rightfully ours.

And we -- we being my group of friends -- marched on the Holiday Inn.

We marched on the Dairy Queens.

We marched on the restaurants in Colonial Heights.

And we saw the KKK.

We saw the white sheets.

>> Yes.

>> And that is an awesome thing to behold.

And there are very few times in my life when I've actually been afraid of something, but I didn't fool with the KKK.

Once I saw them, I just sort of moved out of their pathway, because I did not want to engage with that group whatsoever.

But, so, back to your original question, I decided that I wanted to be a change agent and I wanted to serve my community, and I thought that the best pathway for that was to enter the practice of law.

And, then, you know, being from the area, there were lawyers that mentored us who, you know, were surrounding us with their wisdom and with their community service.

So we were always exposed to people who were making a difference, and that's what I wanted to do.

>> Which law school did you go to?

>> Well, I went to William & Mary because when I finished Wake Forest with honors, Wake Forest law school did not accept me.

And I was a little bit on the arrogant side.

>> Wait.

Stop there.

You finished undergrad with honors?

>> Yes.

>> But yet the law school at Wake Forest felt you were still not -- >> I wasn't ready, apparently.

So, you know, me with my two-foot Afro and my little miniskirt went waltzing over to the dean's office.

You know, because at that time, you know, we were so full of courage.

We had no fear.

Right, Dr.

Ben?

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

So I went to the dean's office with the wrong attitude.

I went with "What's your problem?"

attitude.

You know, because I knew that I had competed.

I knew that I had worked hard.

I knew I had earned a spot.

>> Yes.

>> And they weren't willing to see that I was capable, you know, of being a successful law student.

What he said to me, Dr.

Ben, was, "Well, we already have two of them."

And I paused, because I said, "Two of what?"

And then it just hit me, that they already had two Black students for the entering class of that year.

And I said, "Okay.

But, see, that was God's plan for me to go somewhere else, and I didn't know it.

So at the time, I was a little angry with God.

You know how you just are immature and do and say foolish things?

So, you know, I asked the Lord, "Well, what's happening here?

You know that I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 12 years old."

And my husband had already been accepted to medical school, so he was on his pathway.

And here I am, stuck out in the middle, because I only applied to one law school at the time.

So the next year, I applied to William & Mary, and by the grace, I was able to maintain my Virginia status.

So, I went to law school for $500 a semester, which is unheard of.

And by going to William & Mary, I then took the bar in February of my third year, passed it.

'Cause you were allowed to do that at that time.

>> Yes.

>> And, then, in May went to work for Hill, Tucker, and Marsh in Richmond, where Oliver Hill was the icon for, you know, the nation.

And as you well know, he and Justice Marshall were law-school roommates.

>> That's correct.

>> Yeah.

And so I got to meet Justice Marshal.

And, see, had I stayed at Wake Forest, had gone to Wake Forest, I would not have had that opportunity.

I would not have been on track to go to the Attorney General's office and then the U.S.

Attorney's office in Richmond.

And when my husband finished his ob-gyn residency at the medical college of Virginia, he said, "I'm joining the Air Force."

I'm going, "What?

Here I have this great job, and you're talking about moving to Shreveport, Louisiana?"

But, again, there was a plan, because a position opened up in Shreveport.

Now, when does that happen, okay?

So that's why I know that there was a plan for me already set in place.

I just had to subscribe to it.

>> Yes.

>> And, so, from Shreveport, we came back to Winston-Salem.

>> Well, that's quite a journey.

>> It was a journey.

>> Yes.

And sometimes in our life's journeys, it's not just a straight path.

There are many detours sometimes.

I want to congratulate you, because now I understand there's a building on the campus of Wake Forest that's gonna bear your name.

>> Yes.

I am -- You know, I don't have enough words to express what an incredible experience it is for my family and for me.

Had they decided just to put my husband's name up there, I would have been okay, because he was the football star.

He was the one whom I thought they loved.

He was the one who was calm and reasonable, whereas me in my youth was considered a revolutionary.

You know, as I said, I had the big Afro in the miniskirt.

You know what it was like, you know, during that period of time.

Vietnamese war was raging.

Civil rights was at its pinnacle.

So I was always saying something.

>> Yes.

>> And so I knew that sometimes I could be an irritant, because I didn't let Wake Forest off the hook in the early stages.

And I'm still there now as a life trustee, saying something.

So I'm just -- I'm overwhelmed.

I get teary when I think about it -- when I think about the journey and how hard it was for all of us who were in school at that time, you know, at the European-based universities.

And the story is about the same from university to university in terms of how we were treated, how we were perceived.

And it doesn't matter if you were in the North, the South, the East, or the West, There were schools all over this country that had people who didn't appreciate our heritage.

>> Yes.

But, you know, your persistence really made a difference, Attorney Hopkins.

And I think that today, fast-forward, I think having a building named after you I think serves as tremendous inspiration for the next generation of freedom fighters, for the next generation of changemakers.

>> Yes.

And, you know, when they go into the dormitory and when they leave, I want them to know that it's okay to stand on your principles.

It's okay to be courageous, forward-thinking.

But understand the consequences sometimes of speaking out for what is right.

And I just subscribed to that principle because that's what our parents and our grandparents taught us.

In fact, one thing that I encourage young people to do is to form an alliance with their grandparents if they're still living.

And if they have children or nieces and nephews or whatever, second and third cousins, take them to meet Aunt Mariah and Uncle Bob.

>> Yes.

>> And find out what their stories are, because they're incredible.

And if they knew their stories, it wouldn't be a sense of gloom or desperation that exists in the younger population, because we have survived, Dr.

Ben, and we have -- you know, we have come through some turbulent circumstances, and we're still standing.

>> Absolutely.

>> And that's what I say about Wake Forest.

Wake Forest has come a long way.

And by giving us this honor, Wake Forest is saying, "We applaud you.

We applaud your people."

Because I didn't get there by myself.

I had a great team of people surrounding me.

And, really, this is an honor for all the Black people who have come to Wake Forest before me and for the future generations, as you said, to be inspired as to what can be accomplished and what you can do if you put your foot in it.

>> Exactly.

We have a mutual -- had a mutual friend, Maya Angelou.

>> Yes.

>> Tell us about how you and Maya Angelou first met and how you all developed a close friendship.

>> Well, of course, you know, she was a prominent professor at Wake Forest.

>> Yes.

>> And I was in the legal office at Wake Forest at the time when she came to the university.

As you know, one of her best friends was Dr.

Dolly McPherson, who was in the English department.

And a professor in the biology department, Herman Eure, helped to connect us with Maya for dinners.

'Cause it always starts around a table.

>> Yes.

>> And eventually, she became a patient of my husband's, which I can say now, you know, now that both of them are gone.

And we just formed a very close alliance.

And as you know, Maya was a person who was always glad to see you.

She had that old, Southern embrace that just made you feel welcome.

And she was so profound, so brilliant, and just was a beacon of light for all of us.

She was inspirational.

And when you did something that was not complimentary or forward-thinking, she'd tell you.

She'd tell you.

And she was a mother figure to many of us, and she is missed dearly every day.

She was very popular among the students.

I didn't get a chance to take her class, because I was long gone when she came.

But I would sit in on her classes.

And so, you know, sitting around her table, you learn a lot, and you meet a lot of people who have made an impact on happenings in America, such as yourself, you know?

So I was fortunate to be able to experience a friendship with Dr.

Maya Angelou.

>> And she would always talk about, in public, but, also, in private about why Winston-Salem.

Why the city of Winston-Salem, North Carolina?

Wake Forest became a setting where the arts were embraced.

You know, a lot of places, people did not understand the value of the social sciences.

>> Right, right.

>> Tell us, of all universities in America, how was it that Wake Forest sought to embrace Maya Angelou?

>> Actually, it was a provost.

But you probably met Ed Wilson.

He was the one who interested Maya in coming to the university.

>> Yes.

>> And there was a group of writers, journalists, people who were interested in moving the university forward.

She was a global figure.

I think at one time, wasn't she the most widely read author in the world?

>> That's right.

Yes.

>> So she brought all those things with her, and I think we were fortunate to be able to attract her.

But Winston-Salem has always been a place of the arts, and Wake Forest and Winston-Salem State have been the center of the arts for this area, as well as Salem College.

And, you know, we have that what is called the International Black Theatre Festival here now.

She was very instrumental in initiating that effort with the founder, Larry Leon Hamlin, when it was called the North Carolina Black Repertory Film Festival in the beginning.

So that was an easy fix, Dr.

Ben.

>> Yes.

>> We're already arts-oriented in the area.

And, then, you know, to have the opportunity to bring a world-renowned figure who was a humanitarian -- see, that's the other piece to her -- who cared about people, who was compassionate, who did her outreach and wanted to serve the community.

So all of that was a good fit for what Wake Forest was looking for at the time.

>> If Maya Angelo could be here on the show, I think she would probably give you the compliments.

>> Oh, thank you.

>> Because your impact, you and your husband.

You have a unique vantage point for being not only a successful career in law, you were a federal prosecutor.

You have done so much.

What would you say today to Black women who are contemplating -- you said at 12 years old you wanted be a lawyer.

>> Yes.

>> Do you see the... avenues to become a lawyer for Black women and other women of color being greater today or much more difficult.

And the reason why I ask you this question, because even though now we have a Black woman on the Supreme Court, there are some in our society who still question whether or not she was qualified.

>> She was super qualified.

She's brilliant.

And in terms of the pathways now for younger women to pursue the practice of law, I say it's wide-open.

The only drawback might be the cost.

Because, you know, the cost is spiraling.

But there are grants.

There's work study.

There's state-supported schools.

There's always a way.

And I get a little upset when I hear people say there are too many lawyers.

There are not too many good lawyers who care about the community.

And when I hear that there are too many lawyers, I say, "Well, Doug Wilder told me years and years ago, and that is there's always room at the top."

So that's in terms of whether there is a greater opportunity, I think there is a great opportunity to do whatever pathway you choose, as long as you remember your community and remember your service commitment to your surroundings.

Even if you aren't in where you grew up, you know, reach out and touch somebody, because that's the way we made it.

Somebody touched us.

We touched somebody else.

That somebody else has got to touch another party to keep the spirit of our ethnicity and our history and our love for one another.

on a good track.

You know, we can't always depend on outside parties to do what we're supposed to do ethnically.

I mean.

okay, so they're gonna take history books out.

They're gonna change the history books.

What about the oral tradition?

>> Yes.

>> You know, what about just sitting down with your children and saying, "Grandma Sedalia did this, that, and the other?

And during the Depression, Black women got together and bartered and exchanged services so they could make it when somebody didn't get a paycheck or somebody got laid off."

There's always a way.

And, you know, we're so intuitive.

It's super creative.

We're a creative people.

What we got to do is get that back and start believing in what we can do to make a positive influence on our society.

>> As you look over that landscape in America and really throughout the world, what gives you your greatest hope today?

>> Well, I'm not gonna give up on having joy in the morning.

>> Great.

>> I think hope and faith have been components of how I get through the day.

Because what I tell young people is give hope a chance.

Don't give up on it, you know?

You know, perseverance is the middle name of our generation.

And we were surrounded by people who were hopeful, who were always inspirational, who were always reaching out to help someone.

And I think if you take the attention off of yourself and look to the needs of others -- and this is what Maya Angelou used to emphasize, looking at the needs of others.

'Cause she said, "What worth are you if you can't help somebody?"

My parents felt that.

Maya Angelou built upon the foundation that my parents instilled in my sister and in me.

And so I'm not gonna be a person of gloom and doom.

You know, I think that democracy is going to prevail.

I think our people are going to prevail.

And I think if we just hang in there, that we will be okay.

Because I'm-a tell you, Dr.

Ben -- and this is why it's important to talk with grandparents -- again, when I was 12 years old, my grandmother told me that if Black people could survive Herbert Hoover, they could survive any president.

So I still hold that in my heart, saying that we're gonna be alright.

And I really do believe that.

>> Attorney Beth Hopkins, thank you so much for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> My pleasure.

to engage with.

Thank you for having me.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry.

Learn more, api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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