>>> AS THE WORLD REACTS TO THE SPIRALING SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS IT IS PART OF THE WIDER COLLAPSE OF RULES BASED ORDER.

THE ADVISER TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY JOINS WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU BIANNA GOLODRYGA.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE WALTER.

>> THIS ATTACK ON IRAN BY THE UNITED STATES HAS PRODUCED A RESPONSE FROM CANADA, YOUR PRIME MINISTER, YOUR ONCE FOREIGN MINISTER OF CANADA.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO EXPLAIN IT TO US.

WHAT THE CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER SAID WAS THAT CANADA SUPPORTS THE UNITED STATES ACTING TO PREVENT IRAN FROM OBTAINING A NUCLEAR WEAPON AND TO PREVENT ITS REGIME FROM FURTHER THREATENING INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND SECURITY, EXPLAIN WHAT CANADA'S POSITION IS ON THIS WAR.

>> WELL LOOK, WALTER, IMPORTANT FOR ME TO BE VERY CLEAR, I STEPPED DOWN FROM THE CABINET IN THE FALL AND FROM PARLIAMENT A FEW WEEKS AGO.

SO I'M NOT HERE SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA AND I WANT TO BE REALLY, REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

BUT I AM A CANADIAN.

I AM A LIBERAL.

AND PROUD OF BOTH THINGS.

I THINK A REALLY IMPORTANT STARTING POINT FOR ME WHEN IT COMES TO IRAN IS RECOGNIZING THE INCREDIBLE SUFFERING OF THE PEOPLE OF IRAN.

RECOGNIZING HOW OPPRESSIVE THIS THEOCRATIC REGIME HAS BEEN AND HOW HARD AND HOW BRAVELY THE PEOPLE OF IRAN TIME AND TIME AGAIN HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THIS REGIME AND RISING UP AGAINST IT INCLUDING IN RECENT WEEKS.

THERE IS A LARGE IRANIAN CANADIAN COMMUNITY HERE.

MANY OF THEM MY FRIENDS.

AND I HAVE TO SAY OVER THIS WEEKEND, WHILE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE FUTURE WILL HOLD AND IRANIAN CANADIANS, MANY OF THEM HAVE FAMILY IN IRAN.

THEY ARE VERY WELL INFORMED.

THEY ARE AS SMART AS ANY ANALYST YOU WILL TALK TO ABOUT KNOWING THERE WILL BE ALL KINDS OF DIFFICULT AND HARD TO PREDICT DEVELOPMENTS IN THE FUTURE.

BUT ONE THING I DID HEAR FROM MY FRIENDS THIS WEEKEND IS CELEBRATION THAT A TYRANT HAS DIED AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, ALL OF US NEED TO REALLY START THERE AND RECOGNIZE THAT.

>> ONE OF THE THING THAT'S THE RUSSIAN OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN SAYING IS THAT THIS KIND OF UNLEASHES THEM TO DO REGIME CHANGES AND ATTACKS.

YOU OBVIOUSLY WILL TALK SOON ABOUT UKRAINE.

YOU HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM THERE.

THEY ALSO SAID ON ESTONIA, MAYBE RUSSIA WILL START ACTING THIS WAY.

IS THAT SOMETHING YOU FEAR?

>> I THINK WE NEED TO BE WORRIED ABOUT A FEW THINGS.

ONE IS IF THE PRECEDENT THAT IS BEING SET IS ANY COUNTRY WITH SUPERIOR MILITARY FORCE SIMPLY HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE OUT THE LEADERSHIP OF ANOTHER COUNTRY, THAT IS REALLY, REALLY TROUBLING.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE ALSO SOME REAL CONCERNS THAT WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION.

BECAUSE IF YOU ARE A SMALLER COUNTRY THAT IS CONCERNED ABOUT THIS PRECEDENT, IT IS GOING TO BE PRETTY TEMPTING FOR COUNTRIES TO THINK IN A WORLD WHERE THERE ARE NO RULES, WHERE THERE ARE NO RULES OF WAR, WHERE THAT HOST WAR LIBERAL ORDER IMPERFECT AS IT WAS, IS NOW COMPLETELY BEING DISREGARDED.

IF THAT'S THE WORLD WE ARE IN, IT IS GOING TO BE HARD FOR SMALLER COUNTRIES TO RESIST THE VIEW THAT THEY NEED TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND THAT MAKES THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS FOR ALL OF US.

>> LET ME UNPACK SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID WHICH IS THAT THIS NOTION OF A STRONG POWER DECIDING TO TAKE OUT THE LEADERSHIP, IN OTHER WORDS, TO KILL THE LEADERSHIP OF ANOTHER COUNTRY, IS THAT A LINE THAT HAS BEEN CROSSED HERE THAT IS SOMEWHAT UNUSUAL AND MAY HAVE A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW WALTER, IT IS NOT THAT UNUSUAL.

IT IS, AFTER ALL, WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN TRIED TO DO IN UKRAINE.

AND THANKS TO THE REMARKABLE RESISTANCE OF THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE IN FEBRUARY OF 2022, HE DID NOT SUCCEED IN TAKING OUT THE UKRAINIAN LEADERSHIP.

SO THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

WHAT, YOU KNOW, IT IS PRETTY TRENDY RIGHT NOW, WALTER, TO SAY OH, YOU KNOW, THAT RULES BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER THAT WE HAD AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR WASN'T REALLY REAL ANYWAY.

IT WAS HYPOCRITICAL.

IT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A MASK FOR AMERICA AND LOTS OF BAD THINGS HAPPENED IN THAT POST WORLD WAR TWO ERA WHEN THIS ORDER OSTENSIBLY EXISTED.

I THINK, I HOPE THAT WE WILL ALL NOW START TO REFLECT ON THE FACT THAT THERE WAS AN ORDER OF SOME KIND.

THERE WAS A VIEW THAT A DEGREE OF INTERNATIONAL CONSENSUS WAS NECESSARY.

THERE WAS OF INTERNATIONAL CONSENSUS WAS NECESSARY BEFORE ACTING, BEFORE INTERVENING IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

THERE WERE RULES OF WAR.

AND I THINK THAT ALL OF US NEED TO BE VERY, VERY THOUGHTFUL ABOUT SUPPORTING THE CREATION OF A WORLD WHERE ANYTHING GOES AND MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

AND ESPECIALLY I'M GLAD TO BE TALKING TO YOU, WALTER BECAUSE YOU ARE AMERICAN.

AND AMERICA IS STILL THE SUPERPOWER.

YOU REALLY CAN DO PRETTY MUCH WHAT YOU WANT.

AND I HOPE THAT THIS IS A MOMENT FOR AMERICANS TO REFLECT ON THE FACT THAT THE RULES BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER WHICH DID ACT AS A CONSTRAINT ON AMERICAN POWER PROVIDED AMERICA WITH SOME MEANINGFUL PROTECTION.

>> DO YOU THINK THIS WAS A VIOLATION OF THE RULES BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER?

>> LOOK, THIS WAS A MILITARY ACTION UNDERTAKEN BY THE U.S.

AND ISRAEL WITHOUT CONSULTATION.

I DO WANT TO COME BACK TO THE FACT THAT IT WAS AN ACTION THAT ALSO REMOVED A TYRANT.

AND YOU KNOW, IN REFLECTING ON THE RULES BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER, AND LIBERAL ACTIONS IN THAT ORDER IS SOMETHING I THINK WE DO NEED TO REFLECT ON IS, YOU KNOW, I'M A BIG BELIEVER IN LIBERAL DEMOCRACY.

IN MY COUNTRY.

I THINK THAT LIBERAL DEMOCRACY HAS TO BE READY TO STAND UP AND FIGHT FOR ITSELF.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE OBSERVED OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES IS MAYBE IN THE SHADOW OF THE WAR IN IRAQ, LIBERAL DEMOCRACY BECAME SCARED OF STANDING UP FOR ITSELF.

WE SAW THAT IN THE NONREACTION TO THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF GEORGIA.

WE SAW THAT IN THE FACT THAT WHEN ASSAD CROSSED RED LINES IN SYRIA, THERE WAS NO RESPONSE.

WE SAW THAT IN THE FACT THAT UKRAINE WAS NEVER GIVEN ENOUGH, HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN ENOUGH SUPPORT TO ACTUALLY WIN.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE PREVIOUS REACTIONS FROM THE PREVIOUS ACTIONS TOWARDS MADURO.

I WAS VERY ACTIVE IN THE LIMA GROUP WHICH WAS A WESTERN HEMISPHERE INITIATIVE TO SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION IN VENEZUELA.

WE DID A LOT, BUT NOT ENOUGH.

I DO THINK LIBERAL DEMOCRATS LIKE ME NEED TO REFLECT ON THE FACT FOR TWO DECADES, PUTIN WAS A BETTER ALLY TO HAVE THAN WASHINGTON.

IF YOU HAD HIM ON YOUR SIDE, YOU COULD STICK AROUND.

SO THESE ARE REALLY, REALLY TOUGH QUESTIONS.

WHAT I LIKE TO COME BACK TO IS THE PEOPLE OF IRAN.

THEY HAVE BEEN FIGHTING VERY, VERY HARD FOR DEMOCRACY.

THEY HAVE SUFFERED MASSACRES.

AND I REALLY THINK IT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE THEIR WELL BEING, THEIR STRUGGLE AT THE CENTER OF THE CONVERSATION.

>> YOU STEPPED DOWN TO BECOME AN UNPAID ADVISER TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IN UKRAINE.

IF RUSSIA SAID WHY DON'T WE SEND IN LARGE AMOUNTS OF PLANES AND DRONES AND TRACK ZELENSKYY AND KILL HIM AND EVERYBODY, DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS POSSIBLE?

>> PUTIN NEEDS NO ENCOURAGEMENT TO GO AFTER UKRAINE AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

HE HAS BEEN TRYING TO SUBDUE UKRAINE, TO CONQUER, TO DECAPITATE THE GOVERNMENT SINCE FEBRUARY OF 2022 IN A FULL SCALE INVASION.

AND IN FACT, SINCE 2014.

IT HAS BEEN AN EXPLICIT EFFORT TO CONTROL UKRAINE AND TO UNSEAT THE GOVERNMENT.

SO VLADIMIR PUTIN NEEDS NO ENCOURAGEMENT.

HE IS ALREADY THROWING EVERYTHING HE HAS AT UKRAINE AND IT IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH OF THE UKRAINIAN LEADERSHIP AND THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE THAT AFTER MORE THAN FOUR YEARS OF WAR, THEY ARE STILL STRONG AND INDEPENDENT.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS BEEN PUBLICLY CLEAR AND SUPPORTIVE OF THIS ATTACK AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

HE SINGLED OUT IRAN AS A COUNTRY WHICH IS SUPPORTING THE RUSSIAN FULL SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE AND HE IS RIGHT.

IT IS IRANIAN WEAPONS WHICH ARE BEING USED TO RAIN DOWN DEATH ON THE UKRAINIAN CIVILIAN POPULATION.

THAT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THAT AIONS EXISTS.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS BEEN CLEAR THIS ATTACK IS AN ATTACK ON THE IRANIAN, NORTH KOREAN, RUSSIAN CHINESE ALLIANCE THAT HAS BEEN DOING SO MUCH HARM TO UKRAINE.

HE ALSO SAID THAT UKRAINE HAS A LOT OF EXPERTISE IN SHOOTING DOWN SHAHED DRONES AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO LEND THAT EXPERTISE TO THE U.S.

AND ISRAEL.

>> YOU HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM UKRAINE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU SAW ON THE GROUND.

>> WALTER, I SAW PEOPLE WHO WERE REALLY TIRED AS I'M SURE YOUR VIEWERS KNOW.

WHAT HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY HORRIBLE ABOUT THIS WINTER IS THAT RUSSIA ATTACKED THE POWER GRID.

IT ATTACKED THE POWER GRID IN MAJOR UKRAINIAN CITIES INCLUDEING THE CAPITAL KU.

AND THAT MEANT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN A WINTER WHERE THE TEMPERATURE DROPPED TO 20 BELOW ZERO CELSIUS, A LOT OF PEOPLE WENT FOR HOURS AND HOURS, DAYS EVEN WITHOUT HEATING IN THEIR APARTMENT.

THIS IS A CITY OF SOVIET SKYSCRAPERS SO WHEN THE POWER IS OUT, THE ELEVATOR DOESN'T WORK EITHER.

OFTEN THE WATER DOESN'T RUN AS WELL.

THERE WAS A LOT OF REAL PERSONAL HARDSHIP FOR PEOPLE.

AND YOU COULD SEE IT ON PEOPLE'S FACES.

EVERYONE I TALKED TO SAID THEY WERE REALLY TIRED.

BUT WHAT I WAS ALSO STRUCK BY IS BEING TIRED DIDN'T MEAN PEOPLE WERE INCLINED TO GIVE UP.

WHAT REALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON I SPOKE TO AND THAT INCLUDES, I SPOKE TO A LOT OF SOLDIERS, I SPOKE TO A LOT OF THEIR COMMANDERS.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON I SPOKE TO SAID YES, WE ARE TIRED.

YES, WE HATE THIS WAR.

YES, THE COST IS VERY, VERY HIGH.

BUT, WE CAN'T GIVE UP.

BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE TO FIGHTING IS TO BE SUBJUGATED AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN IRAN MAKES IT MORE LIKELY THIS GETS RESOLVED OR WILL IT CONTINUE TO DRAG ON FOR ANOTHER FOUR YEARS?

>> YOU KNOW, WALTER, NO ONE GAVE ME A CRYSTAL BALL WHEN I WAS A CABINET MINISTER AND NO ONE GAVE ME A CRYSTAL BALL WHEN I STEPPED DOWN FROM ELECTED POLITICS.

SO I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE A PREDICTION.

BUT, AND I THINK ACTUALLY THE INTERNATIONAL OUTLOOK IS MORE VOLATILE AND HARDER TO PREDICT THAN IT HAS BEEN FOR A LONG TIME.

IT IS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS YOU KNOW THAT GREAT YATES LINE.

THE WORST ARE FULL OF PASSIONATE CONVICTION.

THE BEST LACK ALL INTENSITY.

I THINK PEOPLE WHO TELL YOU THAT THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN ARE EITHER IGNORANT OR LIARS.

AND I'M GOING TO TRY TO AVOID BOTH.

WHAT I WILL SAY ABOUT UKRAINE AND A VERY SMART UKRAINIAN CIVIL SOCIETY LEADER, SOMEONE WHO WAS RUSSIAN PRISONER OF WAR FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS AND THAT WAS A HORRIBLE THING TO BE.

THE TORTURE IS REALLY VILE.

AND WHO TODAY IS A CIVIL SOCIETY ACTIVIST.

A WRITER AND HISTORIAN.

I SPOKE TO HIM OVER THE WEEKEND AND HE SAID SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY POWERFUL TO ME.

HE SAID UKRAINE HAS ALREADY WON THIS WAR.

WE DIDN'T KNOW.

WE DENY KNOW HOW AS A SOCIETY WE WOULD RESPOND TO A FULL SCALE RUSSIAN INVASION.

AND NOW WE KNOW.

WE ARE HAVE CONSOLIDATED AS A SOCIETY.

THERE IS A HIGH DEGREE OF SOCIAL SOLIDARITY.

AND THEY ARE PRETTY GOOD AT FIGHTING.

IT IS ACTUALLY REMARKABLE THE RUSSIAN ARMY, THE SECOND LARGEST MILITARY IN THE WORLD, HAS BEEN HELD TO A STANDSTILL BY THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY MORE THAN FOUR YEARS NOW.

I WOULD SAY PEOPLE OF UKRAINE ARE EXHAUSTED AND BLEEDING AND WOUNDED AND PLAYING A HIGH PRICE.

THEY ARE DETERMINED TO MAINTAIN THEIR INDEPENDENCE.

I THINK THEY ARE VERY CONFIDENT THAT THEY WILL SUCCEED.

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THE WAR WILL LAST.

THEY DON'T KNOW IF THERE WILL BE A CEASE FIRE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

AND THEN A FURTHER RUSSIAN INVASION IN THE YEARS TO COME.

BUT THEY ARE CONFIDENT.

I THINK THAT THE BIGGER % CHALLENGE NOW, THE BIGGER QUESTION IS NOT WHETHER UKRAINE CAN RESIST RUSSIA.

IT IS WHETHER THERE WILL BE IN THE FUTURE A FURTHER RUSSIAN INCURSION INTO OTHER PARTS OF EUROPE AND HOW PREPARED EUROPE WOULD BE TO RESIST SUCH AN INCURSION.

I THINK THAT IS THE BIG QUESTION NOW.

>> CHYRYSTIA FREELAND, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE WITH YOU.

A REAL HONOR.