JEFFREY GOLDBERG: President Trump has# made it clear he wants to negotiate## peace between Russia and Ukraine# and maybe even get a prize for it,## but his use of it occasionally# been hard to pin down.

Take a look.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S.

President: You are# gambling with the lives of millions## of people.

You are gambling with World War III.

And what you're doing is very# disrespectful to the country, this country.

It's an honor to be with a very strong# leader.

We've gotten along really very well.

We get a lot of bullshit thrown at# us by Putin, if you want to know the## truth.

He's very nice all the time,# but it turns out to be meaningless.

I'm so disappointed in President Putin.

We're really honored you guys came over.

I mean,## these are the heads of major countries# and respected all over Europe.

Europe is not doing a good job.

We're talking about Ukraine.

They# talk, but they don't produce.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes, I also get whiplash.

But# it seems as if Trump is back in Putin's corner,## and I'll explore this tonight with my guests,# Anne Applebaum is a staff writer at The Atlantic,## Susan Glasser is a staff writer at the New# Yorker, Amna Nawaz is a co-anchor and the## co-managing editor of the PBS NewsHour, and Vivian# Salama is a staff writer for The Atlantic.

Thank## you all for being here.

Amna, thank you# for a very special guest star appearance.

AMNA NAWAZ, Anchor, PBS NewsHour: My# goodness.

Thank you so much.

What an honor.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We appreciate# it.

We appreciate it.

Why don't I start with you to put you on the spot?

AMNA NAWAZ: Sure.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: .. AMNA NAWAZ: Yes, 30 seconds or less.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: 20 seconds, if you don't .. AMNA NAWAZ: Perfect.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, we've been .. witnessed that a bit.

Now, President# Trump is back to pressuring President## Zelenskyy to accept a deal that# would basically carve off a piece## of Ukraine.

But what is the current# state of play?

Where are we going?

AMNA NAWAZ: I mean if you look at just# the last month, I think it's sort of## illustrative of how the last year has gone,# which is that whiplash you just showed.

Also,## let's underscore the fact that this is still# an active war, right?

We saw Zelenskyy out on## the frontlines today in Kharkiv, a place# where I was on the ground last spring,## in a place that Russians claim to have actually# gained control of last month, and he was shooting## selfie videos on the ground today, so very# much a lot of land still being contested there.

The U.S.

plan that was presented last month# was essentially echoing Russian talking points,## talking about Ukraine trading territory# to help them get to peace, talking about## them renouncing the right to join NATO.

When I# spoke to the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S.,## Olha Stefanishyna, earlier this week, she talked# about the fact that language was not final,## but that they were happy that# this dialogue is now moving## around a structured plan of some kind.

So,# that's how Ukrainians are looking at this.

The new Ukrainian plan now reportedly removes# a lot of that language.

But remember here that,## peace plan that the president is pushing for,# President Trump is pushing for, is separate## from the document about security guarantees,# which is the critical issue for Ukraine,## that there will be some kind of guardrails or# protection against future Russian aggression.## The last year has shown us just how far back# and forth the Trump administration has gone.## They came in and took many months to even admit# Russia was the aggressor here in the first place.

And while there have been moments# where he sided with Zelenskyy,## shown some kind of sympathy for Russian# strikes on civilians, by and large,## this is an administration that's looking to# get Russia on board, not necessarily Ukraine.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

And talk about that a# bit.

The baseline sympathy is with Putin, and it's## his belief, it seems, that it's up to Ukraine# to settle a war that in fact Russia started.

ANNE APPLEBAUM, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Yes.# There are two or three very bizarre things about## the Trump administration negotiating# a position.

One of them is that one## of the things they're asking Ukraine to do is# something I don't think Zelenskyy can do.

So,## it's not just that they're saying let the Russians# keep what they conquered.

They want him to give up## territory that they control.

And I don't think# the Ukrainian army will do that.

And so -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The Ukrainian army itself?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: I don't think they will do it.#.. very decentralized.

There are a lot of commanders# who have their own funding and they have their## own status and I don't think he can get them to# give away land that they've been defending for -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's actually# true.

When we were in the Ukraine last,## we met different operators of# different drone factories and## drone units, and they seem to be just# improvising without direct orders.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: It's not exactly like# that, but it's not -- but it's also not## the case that they're fighting, you# know, because they're professional## soldiers and they'll -- they can be# commanded in that same way.

And so -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I thought you were getting at# that, that the Ukrainian people wouldn't accept.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: Well, the Ukrainian people# also won't accept.

I mean, and Zelenskyy,## you know, isn't really -- he has been# weakened by the corruption scandal that## I know that you'll want to talk about, and# I just don't think he's politically in a## position where he can say, we're giving# up territory.

So, that just can't happen.

The other piece of it, as you said, the# really important piece, is the security## guarantees.

This isn't a minor thing.

You# know, if the Ukrainians stop fighting and## they don't have any kind of security guarantee# or any NATO or any western troops or anything,## then their country is unviable.

Because who# will want to live there or invest there if they## know that the war is going to start again, you# know, next year or next month or in six months?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: .. to restart the war again, there needs to# be some reason to think that it's really,## really over.

And, of course, the only way to# achieve that is to put pressure not on Ukraine,## but on Russia.

You know, the Russians have# to be convinced that the war has to end.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No Russia can# stop the war anytime it wants.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: Anytime it wants.

And the# bizarre thing about the whole last year,## you know, the back and forth and so on, is# that it's almost as if the Trump administration## doesn't want to admit or can't understand# that the war only ends when the pressure## is put on Russia and the Russians say, okay,# we're not going to be able to win.

And it's## the most obvious solution to the problem,# and it's the one they just won't take.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Susan, I want to# talk about the corruption I issue in a moment,## but talk about security guarantees in the# framework of what we know about Donald## Trump and his commitment to democratic allies?

SUSAN GLASSER, Staff Writer, The New# Yorker: Well, that's exactly right.

I mean,## they've just re released a national security# strategy that makes it v.. see the United States as increasingly# as some separate entity from NATO,## even though the United States has been the# founder and pillar of NATO since its creation.## And you're seeing this separation from our# western allies and a president who, for his## entire time in public life, has essentially# been critical of our allies while praising## our adversaries.

That is a one through line in an# otherwise at times inconsistent foreign policy.

But the security guarantee thing is really# important here because that's why the prospects## for a deal are so remote.

Right now, essentially,# we're negotiating with ourselves.

You know,## we're negotiating with the Ukrainians, with# the Western Europeans who are desperate to## get themselves back at the table.

But even if we# were to come to consensus and all this pressure## on Zelenskyy is aimed at pressuring Zelenskyy# to make a deal essentially with Donald Trump,## but that deal has to involve a security guarantee# that will be a non-starter for Vladimir Putin.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

SUSAN GLASSER: A.. not as a form of backlash or whiplash# with Donald Trump, but more -- he's a## spurned suitor.

Vladimir Putin has not# been negotiating.

He's not been forced## really to negotiate.

But the second you come# to him, if you're Donald Trump and you say,## here's this meaningful security guarantee that# we have for Ukraine, Putin says, well, no deal.