>> BACK HERE IN THE U.S., PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES ARE SPENDING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS A DAY IN GETTING STUDENTS TO FOOT THE BILL.

COLLEGE COSTS HAVE SOARED, OUTPACING THE INFLATION RATE, WHILE THE STUDENT LOAN DEBT IS OVER $1.7 TRILLION.

HIGHER EDUCATION REPORTER AT THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, MELISSA CORN, INVESTIGATED 50 FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITIES.

WALTER ISAACSON IS JOINED TO DISCUSS HER FINDINGS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THINKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU HAVE THIS GREAT PIECE TITLED COLLEGES ARE SPENDING LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW.

YOU WROTE IT IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.

TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WHY ARE THEY SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY?

YOU ARE TALKING MAINLY ABOUT PUBLIC AND STATE UNIVERSITIES.

>> RIGHT.

WE FOCUS OUR INVESTIGATION ON 50s LIKE FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITIES.

ONE IN EACH STATE.

THEY ARE GENERALLY NOT THE BEST- KNOWN OR MOST PUBLIC UNIVERSITY IN EACH STATE.

WE WANTED TO SEE WERE ALL OF THAT TUITION MONEY GOES.

AND WHAT OTHER REVENUE THEY ARE BRINGING IN.

SO, WE LOOKED AT, YOU KNOW, ACCOUNTING FOR INFLATION AND ADJUSTING FOR INFLATION, ADJUSTING FOR ENROLLMENT INCREASES, HOW MUCH THESE SCHOOLS WERE REALLY SPENDING.

AND WHERE IT WAS GOING IN TERMS OF CONSTRUCTION, SHINY NEW BUILDINGS, AMENITIES ON CAMPUSES, FACULTY AND STAFF SALARY BENEFITS, IT IS A HUGE PART OF WHERE ALL THOSE DOLLARS GO.

AND THERE WAS A GROWTH IN EVERY DIRECTION.

WE SAW A LOT OF INCREASES IN PROGRAMMING AND HIRING, YOU KNOW, EVERY WHICH WAY.

IT WAS JUST A SPRAWL AT THE UNIVERSITY.

>> ISN'T THIS A GOOD THING?

>> IT COULD BE.

GROWTH IS NOT A BAD THING.

WE THRIVE, WE REWARD AMBITION HERE IN THIS COUNTRY.

RIGHT?

WE LIKE THINGS TO GET BIGGER AND BETTER.

BUT OFTEN TIMES, THAT HAS TO BE DONE IN CONTEXT OF WHAT KIND OF RESOURCES YOU HAVE TO DO THAT WORK.

IF STATE FUNDING IS FALLING, BUT YOUR PLANS CONTINUE TO EXPAND, YOU HAVE TO LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR THAT MONEY.

WE FOUND THAT THE SCHOOLS WERE GETTING MORE AND MORE IN TUITION REVENUE, MORE THAN OFFSETTING ANY LOSSES THEY HAD IN STATE APPROPRIATIONS.

SO THE ACTUAL TUITION REVENUE WAS NOT JUST FILLING A WHOLE, IT WAS BEING USED THEN TO HAVE THIS EXPANSION, HAVE THIS 10 YEAR GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN OF WANTING TO BECOME THE BEST, NOT JUST IN OUR STATE AND REGION, BUT IN THE WORLD.

>> WHAT JUMPED OUT AT ME IN YOUR PIECE WAS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY UPGRADED ITS CAMPUS TO THE TUNE OF $805,000 A DAY.

A DAY.

FOR MORE THAN A DECADE.

THAT IS A MOST $1 MILLION A DAY.

WHERE DID ALL OF THAT MONEY GO, AND WHY?

>> RIGHT.

THAT NUMBER, I DEFINITELY DID A DOUBLE TAKE WHEN IT CAME ACROSS THE WEBSITE.

THEY ARE REALLY PROUD OF THIS NUMBER.

THEY ARE INVESTING IN THEIR CAMPUS AND THEIR OPERATION.

SO, IT WENT TO A NEW HOME FOR THE LAW SCHOOL, BUSINESS SCHOOL, SCHOOL OF VISUAL ARTS, AND WENT TO A NEW STUDENT CENTER, UPGRADED FACILITIES.

IT WENT TO INFRASTRUCTURE.

ROADS, UTILITIES, THINGS LIKE THAT.

IT WENT TO A TON OF NEW DORMITORIES, WHICH WERE DONE IN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS.

SO THAT TAKES A BIT OF THE COST AWAY FROM THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF.

THESE ARE VERY NICE DORMS, WITH GRANITE COUNTERTOPS, AND WASHERS -- IN UNIT LAUNDRY, WHICH I CERTAINLY DID NOT HAVE IN COLLEGE.

THEY ALSO SPENT A LOT OF MONEY ON THEIR HEALTHCARE FACILITIES.

YOU KNOW, THE HEALTHCARE OPERATIONS FUNDED A LOT OF THAT.

THE SCHOOL SAYS THAT ON LESS THAN HALF OF THE COST OF THIS WAS PAID FOR BY UNIVERSITY FUNDS.

HOWEVER, THEY ALSO DETAIL THAT ANOTHER 20% WAS COVERED BY BOND.

THEY TOOK OUT DEBT.

UNIVERSITY PAYS THAT DEBT.

AND THAT THAT IS, IN SOME CASES, COVERED BY TUITION DOLLARS.

ULTIMATELY, IT ALL STILL COMES BACK.

NOT ALL, BUT A HUGE PORTION OF IT STILL COMES BACK TO THE STUDENTS BEING ON THE HOOK FOR THESE SORT OF THINGS.

THE SCHOOL SAID THEY DID IT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO PROVIDE STUDENTS WITH AN ENVIRONMENT TO WHICH THEY HAD BECOME ACCUSTOMED THAT THEY ARE EXPECTING.

YOU KNOW, THESE DORMS ARE WHAT FAMILIES EXPECT.

THEY NEEDED TO BE COMPETING WITH OTHER UNIVERSITIES PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.

AND THIS IS THE WAY TO DO IT.

>> KENTUCKY IS ONE OF THE POOREST STATES IN THE COUNTRY.

20% OF KIDS LIVE HELLO THE POVERTY LINE.

HOW DOES THIS AFFECT STUDENTS?

>> YES.

KENTUCKY IS, AS YOU SAID, ONE OF THE MORE POOR STATES IN THE COUNTRY.

YEAH.

THERE COSTS FOR STUDENT TO ATTEND THE FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITY ARE IN THE TOP HALF OF ALL FLAGSHIPS.

THIS IS AN EXPENSIVE SCHOOL TO GO TO.

EVEN FOR IN-STATE STUDENTS.

EVEN AFTER THEY GET SCHOLARSHIPS, THEY ARE ON THE HOOK FOR UPWARDS OF $18,000 A YEAR.

AND THE SCHOOL DOES PROVIDE A LOT OF FINANCIAL AID, BUT THAT INCREASE IN AID HAS NOT KEPT UP NECESSARILY WITH THE INCREASE IN STICKER PRICE.

SO, ATTENDING KENTUCKY AS A KENTUCKY STUDENT IS NOW REALLY OUT OF REACH FOR A LOT OF STUDENTS AT THIS POINT.

>> I ONCE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE WOMEN WHO DID THE COMPUTER IN WORLD WAR II.

AND ONE OF THEM WENT TO NORTHWEST MISSOURI COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND SHE STUDIED MATH, AND SHE DID IT FOR $76.

NOW A SCHOOL LIKE THAT IS $14,000, AND PEOPLE, WE WILL NOT GET, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FROM SMALL TOWNS SHE WAS FROM AN ATLANTA SUBURBAN MISSOURI.

THEY COULD BECOME GREAT CONTRIBUTORS IN THE ECONOMY.

IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE DRIVING AT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE WANT TO FOCUS ON PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES.

PRIVATE SCHOOLS, IT IS GREAT IF IT IS AFFORDABLE, BUT THAT IS NOT PART OF THE MISSION.

THEY CAN CHARGE WHATEVER THEY WANT AN APPEAL TO WHICHEVER STUDENTS THEY WANT.

BUT PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES, YOU KNOW, THERE CORE IS TO EDUCATE LOCAL RESIDENTS.

AND IF THEY ARE CHASING AFTER STUDENTS FROM OUT OF STATE, IF THEY ARE CHASING AFTER HIGH- PROFILE AND HIGH-PRICED FACULTY AND ADMINISTRATORS, AND LAZY RIVERS AND ALL THOSE OTHER AMENITIES THAT WE LIKE TO MAKE FUN OF THEY ARE LOSING AND SOMETHING IN THE PROCESS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT AMENITIES LIKE GREAT DORMITORIES AND CLIMBING WALLS, THAT SORT OF THING.

IS THAT DRIVING THE COST?

IS THAT THE MAIN DRIVER HERE?

>> THAT IS NOT THE MAIN DRIVER.

I THINK WE CAN SAY IT IS A DRIVER.

IT IS A SYMPTOM OF THE ISSUE HERE.

SCHOOLS ARE BUILDING THESE BEAUTIFUL, STUNNING EMPHASIS.

I WOULD LIKE TO GO ON VACATION AT SOME OF THESE PLACES.

THEY ARE BUILDING THESE GREAT CAMPUSES TO APPEAL TO STUDENTS FROM OUT OF STATE OR FULL PAYING STUDENTS WHO DO NOT NECESSARILY NEED FINANCIAL AID WHO ARE FROM WITHIN THE STATE.

SO THEY ARE CHASING AFTER THESE WEALTHIER STUDENTS, WHO THEY THINK HAVE A HIGHER EXPECTATION OF QUALITY OF LIFE AND ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES OF COLLEGE, THE COLLEGE EXPERIENCE.

BUT THEY ARE PUTTING THAT BILL ON EVERYBODY, INCLUDING STUDENTS WHO MAYBE DO NOT CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

>> SO TELL ME, WHAT IS REALLY DRIVING THIS?

IT'S GOT TO BE A REASON THAT THEY HAVE ALL THIS MONEY COMING IN.

>> WELL, THEY HAVE ALL THIS MONEY COMING IN BECAUSE THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO HAVE ALL THIS MONEY COMING IN.

THEY ARE FUNDRAISING LIKE MAD, THEY ARE RAISING TUITION, INCREASING ENROLLMENT, AND THOSE TWO THINGS COMBINED INCREASE THEIR TUITION REVENUE.

THEY ARE TAKING IN MORE OUT OF SCHOOL STUDENTS THAT TEND TO PAY MORE THAN IN-STATE STUDENTS.

THEY ARE BRINGING MONEY IN EVERY WHICH WAY THEY CAN TO FUEL THIS AMBITION AND THIS GROWTH, THIS, WE WANT TO BE THE BEST.

IT IS A VERY COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT.

>> THE MARKET IS KIND OF INSPIRING, ISN'T IT?

>> IT COULD BE.

IT DEPENDS ON WHO IS PAYING THE BILL FOR IT THOUGH.

>> WELL, WHO IS PAYING THE BILL?

>> STUDENTS AND TAXPAYERS.

RIGHT?

STUDENTS ARE BORROWING, THEIR FAMILIES ARE BORROWING, THEY ARE TAKING ON STUDENT DEBT TO ATTEND THESE SCHOOLS.

AND AS WE SEE THIS MASSIVE, YOU KNOW, STUDENT LOAN CRISIS NATIONWIDE, WE ARE SEEING THIS PLAY OUT TO A PRETTY DANGEROUS AND.

>> YOU THINK THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS THAT WE HAVE A STUDENT LOAN CRISIS THAT HAS BEEN CAUSED BY THIS, BECAUSE THE STUDENTS HAVE TO PAY SO MUCH TO GET ALL THESE NEW AMENITIES?

AND NOW THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT THE BIDEN PROGRAM CANNOT GO THROUGH.

IS THAT AT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

>> I THINK THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM.

THE CORE IS ULTIMATELY, WHAT DO THESE SCHOOLS WANT TO BE?

AND WHO ARE THEY GOING AFTER?

AND WHY?

RIGHT?

ARE THEY BEING TRUE TO THAT MISSION OF EDUCATING LOCAL STUDENTS IN AN ACCESSIBLE WAY AS AFFORDABLY AS POSSIBLE?

OR ARE THEY TRYING TO COMPETE WITH PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT MISSION?

I THINK THERE IS THIS BIT OF AN IDENTITY CRISIS IN HIGHER EDUCATION IN PUBLIC HIGHER EDUCATION RIGHT NOW, AS SOME OF THESE FLAGSHIPS, IN PARTICULAR, TRY TO CHASE AFTER THE SAME STUDENTS, THE SAME DONORS, THE SAME FACULTY.

AND IN SOME CASES, THEY ARE LOSING SIGHT OF WHO THEY WERE MEANT TO BE.

>> WHAT SHOULD THEY BE CUTTING BACK ON?

>> THAT IS A TOUGH QUESTION.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT THERE IS ONE ANSWER FOR EVERY SCHOOL.

IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE INSTITUTION, WHAT THEIR OWN FINANCES ARE AND HOW FAR BEYOND THEIR MEANS THEY HAVE BEEN SPENDING.

SO WE HAD SOME SCHOOLS IN PRETTY DIRE FINANCIAL SITUATIONS RIGHT NOW FACING MASSIVE MULTIMILLION DOLLAR, $100 MILLION DEFICITS, BECAUSE THEY SPEND MORE THAN THEY HAD AND THEY HAD OUTSIZED ROADIES -- ROSIE FORECASTS.

THEY NEED TO MAKE SOME PRETTY TOUGH DECISIONS.

YOU KNOW, PRETTY BRUTAL CUTS.

WHETHER THAT MEANS YOU ELIMINATE ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS OR TRIM THE FACULTY ACROSS THE BOARD, OR YOU RETHINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS BRINGING IN MONEY, WHAT NEEDS TO BE BRINGING IN MONEY?

IT REALLY VARIES BY SCHOOL.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE FIRST STEP FOR A LOT OF THESE SCHOOLS IS GETTING A HANDLE ON THEIR BUDGET AND FIGURING OUT WHERE THEY ARE SPENDING THEIR MONEY.

BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE MOST SHOCKING THINGS FROM OUR REPORTING WAS HOW LITTLE ADMINISTRATORS AND TRUSTEES KNOW ABOUT THEIR OWN BUDGETS.

>> LET ME TAKE AN EXAMPLE OF THE BUDGET, WHICH WAS NOT FOR BUILDINGS AND GRAND PROGRAMS.

BUT SOME PEOPLE TALK ABOUT A LOT NOW, THE INCREASE IN ADMINISTRATORS.

THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA HAD MORE THAN 50 EMPLOYEES WITH TITLES OF DIRECTOR, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, DEAN'S OF THIS AND THAT.

THIS IS FROM YOUR ARTICLE, OF COURSE.

AND MORE THAN 160 DEAN'S DOING VARIOUS THINGS LIKE DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION, MENTAL HEALTH.

IS THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM?

OR IS THAT A GOOD THING HAPPENING?

>> I THINK THE EXPECTATION OF WHAT A UNIVERSITY PROVIDES HAS CHANGED A LOT OVERTIMES.

EVEN SINCE I WAS IN COLLEGE IN THE EARLY 2000, RIGHT, IT IS NOT JUST YOU GO AND SIT IN A PLANE ROOM AND YOU STUDY, AND YOU WORK IN YOUR TYPEWRITER.

RIGHT?

THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF HIGH- SPEED INTERNET, IN SOME CASES, AIR CONDITIONING AMMA WHICH, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY DO NOT HAVE AND WOULD HAVE LOVED.

THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF PROVIDING SUPPORT FOR STUDENTS, BOTH IN TERMS OF ACADEMICS AND IN TERMS OF HEALTH.

AND THAT INCLUDES MENTAL HEALTH.

WHERE I THINK YOU START TO HAVE SOME QUESTION MARKS IS WHEN IS IT ENOUGH?

WHEN IS IT CODDLING VERSUS SUPPORTING?

YOU KNOW?

WHAT IS NECESSARY?

>> LET'S TAKE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE.

LOTS OF NEW DEAN'S OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION.

THAT IS REALLY NOT NECESSARY?

>> I THINK THE STUDENT POPULATION HAS BECOME A LOT MORE DIVERSE AND THEY ARE PREPARING FOR A WORKPLACE AND A WORLD THAT IS MORE DIVERSE.

SO, MAKING SURE THEY ARE PREPARED FOR THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT THING.

THE MECHANIC MENTAL HEALTH IS NECESSARY OR UNNECESSARY?

>> I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT SCHOOLS TRYING REALLY HARD TO PROVIDE LOW-COST MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT SERVICES.

THEY ARE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH THIS.

STUDENTS, THERE IS A MAJOR MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS GOING ON IN HIGH SCHOOLS, AT COLLEGES, AND THE PANDEMIC ONLY EXACERBATED THAT.

SO, SPENDING MONEY AND MAKING SURE YOUR STUDENTS ARE PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY HEALTHY ENOUGH TO PURSUE THEIR STUDIES, THAT MAKES SENSE TO ME.

I'M ALSO NOT THE ONE WRITING THE CHECKS THOUGH.

>> ONE OF THE DRIVERS OF COSTS, I'M TALK ABOUT LSU AND SOME OTHER PLACES DOWN HERE, OF COURSE, SPORTS.

NOT ONLY FOOTBALL, BUT ALL THE TEAM SPORTS.

I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SOMEWHAT CONFUSED, YOUR ARTICLE SORT OF DELVES INTO IT.

ARE THESE THINGS THAT HELP THE UNIVERSITY RAISE MONEY, OR ARE THESE THINGS THAT COST STUDENTS MORE FEES?

>> SO, VERY FEW DIVISION I ATHLETIC PROGRAMS MAKE MONEY FOR THEIR SCHOOLS.

VERY, VERY FEW.

THEY ARE CONSIDERED AUXILIARY ENTERPRISES.

THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SELF- SUSTAINING, BUT THEY ALMOST NEVER ARE.

THERE IS REALLY JUST A COUPLE THAT THE ATHLETIC OPERATION FLICKS MONEY BACK TO THE ACADEMIC SIDE.

RATHER, FOR MOST OF THESE, THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF PROVIDES ANIMAL SUBSIDIES TO THE ATHLETIC PROGRAM, AND STUDENTS OFTEN PAY FEES THAT ARE TARGETED DIRECTLY FOR ATHLETIC PROGRAMS, SO IT CAN BE, YOU KNOW, TO THE TUNE OF $50 MILLION A YEAR THAT THE UNIVERSITY IS PAYING TO HELP SUPPORT THEIR ATHLETIC PROGRAM.

NOW, IT CAN BE A MONEY PIT, OR IT COULD, AS SOME SCHOOLS SAY IN DEFENSE OF THIS, IT IS THE FRONT PORCH OF THE UNIVERSITY.

IT IS THE WAY THAT THE WORLD LEARNS ABOUT THEIR SCHOOL, IT IS GOOD FOR MORALE, ENGAGEMENT, AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

A LOT OF THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT IT COMES AT A VERY HIGH PRICE.

>> WE JUST HAD DREW FAUST ON THIS SHOW, FORMER PRESIDENT OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY.

AND SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES, NOT JUST PRIVATE ONES.

AND SHE SAID THERE HAS BEEN A MAJOR SHIFT IN THIS COUNTRY IN BELIEVING THAT HIGHER EDUCATION IS A PUBLIC GOOD, THAT WE SHOULD ALL SUPPORT OF TAXPAYERS, EVEN IF OUR KIDS ARE NOT GOING INTO HIGHER EDUCATION, VERSUS BEING JUST AN INDIVIDUAL GOOD THAT THE INDIVIDUAL GOOD SHOULD PAY FOR HIM OR HERSELF.

DO YOU SEE THAT SHIFT?

AND DO YOU EVEN WORRY THAT STORIES LIKE THIS MIGHT PROMOTE THAT SHIFT?

SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, THAT IS RIDICULOUS, SPENDING THIS MUCH.

IT IS NOT A PUBLIC GOOD, WE DON'T CARE IF THE REST OF THE POPULATION GETS EDUCATED AS WELL.

>> YOU KNOW, MY COLLEAGUES AND I DID THINK AS WE WERE WORKING ON THIS STORY, YOU KNOW, WHAT IMPACT IT COULD HAVE ON STATE LEGISLATORS, THE HOLDERS OF THE FIRST STRINGS.

STATE FUNDING HAS ALREADY DEPLOYED, MAYBE THIS'LL MAKE THEM MORE LIKELY TO CUT FURTHER AND THEY YOU GUYS ARE WASTING OUR MONEY.

BUT THERE IS ALSO AN ACCOUNTABILITY ELEMENT, RIGHT?

IF A STATE CONTINUES TO PROVIDE FUNDING, THEY MAY BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME OVERSIGHT OF WHERE THAT MONEY GOES.

AND WE STARTED TO SEE IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, SOME STATES OFFER TO PROVIDE MORE FUNDING TO THEIR UNIVERSITIES AND PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS BUT THEY SAY, WE WILL GIVE YOU THIS ONLY IF YOU HOLD TUITION FLAT OR YOU INVEST IN THIS PARTICULAR AREA.

SO, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THAT INVESTMENT CAN COME WITH AN OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITY AND AN OPPORTUNITY THERE TO HELP SHAPE WHAT KIND OF SCHOOLS THESE BECOME.

>> THAT SOUNDS BOTH GOOD AND MAY BE BAD?

DO I WANT THE STATE LEGISLATURE HERE TO BE TELLING THE CHANCELLORS OF THE UNIVERSITY, HERE IS THE WAY YOU SHOULD DO HIGHER EDUCATION?

>> PRESUMABLY, THERE IS SOME SORT OF CONVERSATION GOING ON AND IT IS NOT UNILATERAL, YOU SHALL PUT MONEY HERE.

BUT IF THE STATE IS PUTTING MONEY TOWARDS IT, PRESUMABLY THE STATE HAS A SAY IN WHERE IT GOES, TO SOME EXTENT.

THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS AND THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES ALSO HAS AN OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITY HERE.

THEY ARE FIDUCIARIES OF THE UNIVERSITY.

THEY SHOULD BE KEEPING A VERY CLOSE EYE ON WHERE THIS MONEY IS GOING AND WHERE IT SHOULD BE GOING.

>> TELL ME.

WHEN YOU DID THIS PIECE, YOU HELPED THE TRANSPARENCY OF ALL OF THIS.

IS THAT THE SOLUTION WE REALLY SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR?

WE ALL NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THESE SELLERS ARE GOING AND WHY.

>> IS A HUGE PART.

MY COLLEAGUES AND I HOPE TO RELY ON FEDERAL DATA OUT THERE REGARDING UNIVERSITY SPENDING.

IT JUST WAS NOT RICH ENOUGH OR RELIABLE ENOUGH, AND THIS IS INFORMATION THAT IS THROUGH TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

SO WE WENT AND COLLECTED THESE NUMBERS OURSELVES, LOOKING BACK 20 YEARS, WE PULLED AUDITED FINANCIAL REPORTS WERE 50 SCHOOLS.

THAT WAS A TON OF MANUAL LABOR, A TON OF DATA ENTRY.

AFTER THE STORY PUBLISHED, I THINK WE WERE SHOCKED TO SEE MESSAGES FROM CURRENT AND FORMER TRUSTEES OF FLAGSHIPS FROM STATE LEGISLATORS, LEADERS OF HIGHER EDUCATION IN VARIOUS STATES SAYING, HEY, DO YOU HAVE THE NUMBERS ON OUR SCHOOL TOO?

WE ARE CURIOUS WHAT THEY SAY.

WE SEE A TRUSTEE OF A FLAGSHIPS THING, I DO NOT KNOW WHERE MY SCHOOLS MONEY GOES, OH, I SHOULD PROBABLY LOOK INTO THAT.

IT SUGGESTED THAT TRANSPARENCY IN INFORMATION COULD BE A GOOD FIRST STEP HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH AND THANKS FOR YOUR STORY.