WELL AS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REFORMS THREATENED TO DISMANTLE THE WORLD OF HEALTH, MY NEXT GUEST IS TAKING A LOOK BACK TO DISCOVER HOW YOU GOT A RED FIVE YEARS AGO TODAY COVID WAS DECLARED A PANDEMIC AND THE WORLD CHANGED FOREVER.

SINCE THEN THERE HAVE BEEN OVER 700 MILLION CASES AND 7 MILLION DEATHS WORLDWIDE.

AS A COVID COORDINATOR UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, ASHISH JHA HELPED LEAD THE RESPONSE.

NOW HE'S JOINING TO REFLECT HOW THE PANDEMIC TRANSFORM SOCIETY AND HOW IT CONTINUES TO IMPACT US TODAY.

IN THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> WE ARE FIVE YEARS OUT FROM THE BEGINNING OF COVID.

THERE IS STILL LONG COVID.

3 TO 5 MILLION AMERICANS ARE DESCRIBING SYMPTOMS CONSISTENT WITH THAT.

TO SET THE TABLE FOR OUR AUDIENCE, DESCRIBE WHAT THIS AUDIENCE IS?

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.

LONG COVID IS BASICALLY POST VIRAL SYNDROME THAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH OTHER DISEASES.

IT PROBABLY IS NOT ONE CONDITION, IT PROBABLY IS THREE OR FOUR POTENTIAL CONDITIONS.

FOR SOME PEOPLE THEY HAD A BAD BOUT OF COVID WITH ONGOING SYMPTOMS .

FOR OTHERS THE INFECTION MIGHT NOT OF BEEN SEVERE BUT IT TRICKLED IN THE MINE -- AUTOIMMUNE ISSUE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE'S WHO HAVE CHRONIC INFECTIONS.

IT'S A MIX OF ALL THREE.

ALL THREE GROUPS OF PEOPLE ARE CONTINUING TO SUFFER WEEKS OR MONTHS AFTER INITIAL INFECTION.

>> FOR THE PEOPLE WHO SAY MY LIFE IS NOT BEEN THE SAME BUT I CANNOT PUT MY FINGER ON IT -- WHEN THEY GO TO THEIR PRIMARY PHYSICIAN, IT'S NOT LIKE THERE IS SOME SORT OF TEST TO SAY THEY HAVE LONG COVID?

>> THAT IS RIGHT.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE A -- CONCERNS DISMISSED OR MINIMIZED.

MY BEST GUESS IS 3 TO 5 MILLION AMERICANS CONTINUE TO SUFFER.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE TEST AND THAT'S WHY WE NEED MORE RESEARCH.

BOTH TO FIND THE DISEASE AND TO ULTIMATELY TO FIND WAYS OF TREATING PEOPLE SO THEY CAN GET BETTER.

THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW TREATMENTS TRIED.

ANTIVIRALS FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME SEEM TO BE HELPFUL FOR A SUBSET OF PEOPLE.

THAT MIGHT BE THE GROUP THAT HAS A CHRONIC INFECTION.

UNTIL WE CLEARLY DEFINE WHAT THE SET OF ELEMENTS ARE, IT WILL BE HIRED TO FIND ONE TREATMENT THAT WILL WORK FOR EVERYONE.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN NOW, NIH NEEDS TO FUND STUDIES THAT DEFINE THE POPULATIONS BETTER.

WITH EACH POPULATION WE NEED TO TRY NEW TYPES OF TREATMENTS.

NEW MODULATION FOR PEOPLE WITH AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE, ANTIVIRAL DRUGS, THAT RESEARCH REALLY NEEDS TO CONTINUE BUT UNFORTUNATELY THERE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE INTEREST WITH THE CONGRESS OR ADMINISTRATION OF FUNDING THAT.

>> AS WE HEAD INTO THE MINISTRATIONS PARTIES THEY WANT TO CUT THE COSTS OVER THEY CAN.

RESEARCH FUNDING IS ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK AS SEVERAL AGENCIES.

DO YOU THINK NIH WILL CARRY OUT THE TYPE OF RESEARCH THAT MAY AFFECT AND EVENTUALLY HELP THESE AMERICANS?

WE STARTED SOME OF THAT WORK AT THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE.

MY SENSE IS THAT IT LARGELY HAS COME TO A HALT.

NOT HEARING A LOT OF INTEREST IN THIS ADMINISTRATION CONTINUING THAT WORK.

ESPECIALLY WHERE CONGRESS IS, I'M WORRIED THERE WILL NOT BE A CONTINUATION OF SUPPORT FOR RESEARCH TO HELP AMERICANS GET BETTER.

>> I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THERE ARE LINGERING PHYSICAL EFFECTS.

THERE WAS A 2023 STUDY FROM NIH THAT FOUND AN INTERESTING CORRELATION BETWEEN THE MENTAL HEALTH EFFECTS, ANXIETY, DEPRESSION, PTSD -- HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN?

>> THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

UNFORTUNATELY HE GETS MISUSED BY COVID MINIMIZES.

WHO SAY, HERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IT IS MENTAL ILLNESS OR IN PEOPLE'S HEADS.

THE ACTUAL ISSUE, WHEN YOU DEVELOP AN ACUTE ILLNESS AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU DO NOT GET BETTER.

SIX MONTHS, A YEAR, TWO YEARS, CAN BE INCREDIBLY DEBILITATING.

PHYSICAL EFFECTS WITH MENTAL HEALTH EFFECTS.

YOU MIGHT HAVE AMBITIOUS PLANS AS AN ATHLETE OR HAD A VISION OF WHAT YOU COULD DO AND WHEN THAT IS DISRUPTED, IT CAN CAUSE ANXIETY, DEPRESSION, OTHER SYMPTOMS.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT COVID IS IN YOUR HEAD OR LONG COVID IS A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE.

THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES ARE OFTEN A BYPRODUCT OF PEOPLE NOT RECOVERING.

IN WHO REGIONAL DIRECTOR IN EUROPE SAID THIS PAST OCTOBER THAT WE SEEM TO HAVE COLLECTIVE AMNESIA ABOUT COVID.

DO YOU AGREE?

>> I DO.

WHEN I WAS AT THE WHITE HOUSE I CALLED A BUNCH OF HISTORIANS TO ASK ABOUT HOW PANDEMICS COME TO AN END, WHAT DOES HISTORY TELL US?

ONE THING EVERYONE BROUGHT UP IS ELECTIVE AMNESIA THAT FOLLOWS EVERY TEACHER PANDEMIC THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

IT IS A TRAUMA REACTION.

IT IS A TRAUMATIC EVENT FOR SOCIETY TO GO THROUGH A PANDEMIC.

FOR SOME PERIODS OF TIME THERE IS COLLECTIVE AMNESIA AND AN ATTEMPT TO REWRITE HISTORY AND SAY IT WAS NOT THAT BAD.

BABY WE EXAGGERATED AND OVER DID IT?

OVER TIME I HOPE WE WILL SETTLE IN TO UNDERSTANDING HOW DEVASTATING COVID WAS AND HOW WE CAN LEARN LESSONS TO DO BETTER IN THE FUTURE.

>> I WONDER IF HISTORIANS TOLD YOU THAT AFTER THE PANDEMICS THERE WAS A REACTION USED AS A POLITICAL FOOTBALL?

IT SEEMS TO BE THAT WAY NOW.

>> IT DOES.

HISTORY WE HAVE SEEN THAT HAPPEN AGAIN AND AGAIN.

IT ALSO HAS BEEN AN IMPETUS FOR A LOT OF GOOD ACTION.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK MOVEMENT FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH SYSTEMS, THE FOUNDING OF NIH, THE 1920s UNTIL THE 1980 FLU PANDEMIC, YOU GO BACK TO PRIOR TIMES THERE ARE LARGE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES THAT COME OUT OF PANDEMICS AND HOW THEY WERE RESPONDED TO.

IN SOME WAYS THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED.

YOU HOPE TO LEARN LESSONS OF HISTORY AND DO BETTER BUT WE OFTEN FIND OURSELVES TRAPPED BY THE SAME PROBLEMS THAT OUR ANCESTORS HAVE SEEN.

>> YOU SERVED IN THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE, SO YOU HAVE SOME INSIGHT INTO THIS.

ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT WE ARE HERE FIVE YEARS NOW AND WE HAVE NOT USED THIS PANDEMIC AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THOSE KINDS OF INVESTMENTS THAT WE MIGHT'VE MADE 100 YEARS AGO, AFTER THE FLU PANDEMIC?

>> I WORRY THAT THERE IS BACKSLIDING.

IN THE FIRST YEARS OF THE PANDEMIC THERE WERE INVESTMENTS WHEN I WAS AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME TO BRING COVID TO THE END AND HOW TO BE BETTER IN THE FUTURE.

I'VE BEEN TALKING TO PEOPLE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, I AM WORRIED ABOUT THE SLIDING BACK ON PREPAREDNESS.

NOT MAKING THE KIND OF INVESTMENTS THAT ENSURE THAT IN THE FUTURE WHEN WE HIT ANOTHER BIOLOGICAL ATTACK, WE ARE MUCH BETTER PREPARED.

I'M WORRIED THAT WE ARE NOT DOING THAT NOW.

>> WERE THERE EPISODES IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN THE RESPONSE TO THE PANDEMIC WITH THE DECISIONS WERE POLITICIZED?

THERE WAS PERHAPS A MEDICAL PRESCRIPTION THAT YOU WOULD'VE HAD AND OTHER FACTORS THAT ALSO WAIT IN ON WHAT TO SHARE WITH THE PUBLIC AND WHEN?

WHAT STEPS WE SHOULD COLLECTIVELY TAKE AND WHERE TO MAKE INVESTMENTS?

>> I CAN TALK ABOUT THE TIME I WAS THERE WHICH WAS NOT DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION -- THE PUBLIC ANSWER WAS CLEAR WHAT TO DO AND WE DID IT AND TALKED ABOUT IT OPENLY.

VACCINES, PROMOTING TREATMENTS, TESTING FOR PEOPLE INFECTED, THOSE ARE THE RIGHT PUBLIC HEALTH INTEREST YOU SAW THE ADMINISTRATION LEAN HEAVILY ON THAT.

THERE WERE A LOT OF OTHER ISSUES -- I SAY POLITICAL IS NOT A DIRTY WORD BUT POLITICS IS HOW YOU NEGOTIATE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.

THE LABOR GROUPS HAD A DIFFERENT VIEW THAN THE BUSINESS GROUPS WHO MIGHT'VE HAD A DIFFERENT VIEW THAN CDC.

THERE WAS ALWAYS THAT KIND OF CONVERSATION.

MY JOB WAS THE COVID RESPONSE COORDINATOR.

TO COORDINATE ALL THE DIFFERENT VIEWS TO TRY TO COME TO AN ANSWER IN A WAY THAT THE DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS COULD FEEL GOOD ABOUT.

WHO DIDN'T ALWAYS GET IT RIGHT.

THE PUBLIC HEALTH MESSAGE WAS CLEAR, WE LEANED IN.

WHEN THERE WAS MORE UNCERTAINTY, YOU HAD TO LET EVERYBODY WEIGH IN WITH WHAT THEIR VIEWS WERE AND TRY TO COME TO AN ANSWER.

THAT WAS OPTIMAL FOR THE AMERICANS.

MIKE I ASKED THAT BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE AN INTEREST IN THIS CONGRESS TO RELITIGATE SOME OF WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE PANDEMIC.

HOW THE DECISIONS WERE TAKEN.

ARE YOU CONCERNED HAVING HAD THAT JOB THAT YOU WILL HAVE TO TESTIFY IN FRONT OF CONGRESS?

AM I GONNA CONCERNED ABOUT ME.

I AM CONCERNED ABOUT A REWRITING OF WHAT HAPPENED.

I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION GOT EVERYTHING RIGHT?

THEY DID NOT.

EVEN WHEN I WAS THERE, I DON'T THINK I DID.

THERE IS PLENTY TO LOOK AT TO SAY HOW WE DO BETTER OVERALL?

I THINK ABOUT MISTAKES OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS, SOMEWHERE BEFORE BIDEN.

THE WAY SCHOOLS WERE HANDLED, BROAD CONSENSUS THAT SCHOOLS WORK CLOSE FOR TOO LONG.

THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN OPEN IN THE FALL OF 2020.

I SAID PUBLICLY THAT I WAS SUPPORTIVE OF SEXY MANDATES, I BELIEVE THEY SAVED LIVES, OVER THE LONG RUN THEY ALSO FUELED A LOT OF DISTRUST AND I WORRY THAT IT WAS THE WRONG POLICY DECISION.

WHEN YOU HAVE HONEST AND OPEN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THESE THINGS.

WE'RE GOING TO FACE THESE CHALLENGES AGAIN.

TRYING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION IN AN OPEN SPIRITED INQUIRY, ACKNOWLEDGING MISTAKES AND DOING BETTER, THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

NOT A POLITICAL LITIGATION HAPPENING IN WASHINGTON.?

I WONDER IF YOU ARE SEEING THIS FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHICH IS THIS SIGNIFICANT DISTRUST OF INSTITUTIONS, OF GOVERNMENT, VACCINES, SCIENCE, WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT SLIDE?

>> PROBABLY THE THING THAT WORRIES ME MOST ABOUT THE FUTURE.

A HUGE SUCCESS OF THE PANDEMIC WAS THE ABILITY TO BUILD VACCINES QUICKLY.

TREATMENTS QUICKLY.

NONE OF THAT IS USEFUL IF PEOPLE DO NOT TRUST THAT ENOUGH TO GET VACCINATED.

WE'RE SEEING OUTBREAKS OF NASAL AND WORRIED ABOUT BIRD FLU.

WHAT IS HAPPENING, THERE IS A BIGGER DISTRUST OF INSTITUTIONS, PEOPLE HAVE ALSO EXCLUDED MISTAKES PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS HAVE MADE TO ESSENTIALLY TRY TO DISCREDIT THE PUBLIC HEALTH ENTERPRISE.

LIFE EXPECTANCY IN AMERICA HAS ALMOST DOUBLED IN THE LAST 100 TO 120 YEARS, LARGELY BECAUSE OF INNOVATIONS IN MEDICINE.

WE'VE GOT TO GO BACK TO BASIC PRINCIPLES OF THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

IF WE DO THAT AND TO INDICATE EFFECTIVELY ABOUT UPS AND DOWNS OF THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, I HOPE WE CAN BEGIN TO REBUILD TRUST.

IT IS NOT GOING TO BE DONE OVERNIGHT.

LIKE YOU MENTIONED THE MEASLES OUTBREAK IN TEXAS.

HERE WE WERE AS A NATION SO CLOSE TO HAVING COMPLETELY ERADICATED IT.

YOU SURPRISED THAT A COMMUNITY IN TEXAS HAS SUCH A RAPID SPREAD?

IN MEASLES FOR YOUR AUDIENCE KNOWS THAT IT IS THE MOST CONTAGIOUS VIRUS KNOWN TO HUMANS.

HIS FRIENDS VERY QUICKLY.

AS SOON AS IMMUNITY DROPS BELOW 95%.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED THE LAST FEW YEARS, OR HAS BEEN A CAMPAIGN AGAINST VACCINES FOR A LONG TIME BUT IT REALLY CAUGHT WIND IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

CULMINATING WITH RFK JUANNY ROMERO.

BECOMING HOW SECRETARY IN AMERICA.

HE NOW RUNS THE HEALTH ENTERPRISE OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

IT HAS CAUSED A LOT OF PEOPLE TO QUESTION VACCINES, THE SAFETY.

LEFT A LOT OF COMMUNITIES VULNERABLE.

IN THAT CONTEXT, I'M NOT SURPRISED TO SEE MEASLES BREAKING OUT.

I'M DISAPPOINTED WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE GETTING SICK AND DYING FROM MEASLES GIVING HOW REASONABLE IT IS.

>> SPEAKING OF RFK JUANNY ROMERO., HE PUBLISHED AN OP-ED RECENTLY WHERE HE PROMOTED THE USE OF VACCINES.

WHAT DID YOU THINK OF IT?

FOUR IT WAS GREAT TO SEE HIM PROMOTE THAT.

AT LEAST HE IS WILLING TO DO THAT.

THE UNFORTUNATE PART IS THAT HE WENT AND DID AN INTERVIEW ON FOX NEWS, HE SAYS THINGS THAT ARE WRONG AND THEY CAUSE CONFUSION.

HE TALKS ABOUT TREATMENTS FOR MEASLES AND THERE ARE NO REAL TREATMENTS.

VITAMIN A CAN BE HELPFUL FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE VITAMIN DEFICIENT BUT IT'S NOT -- HE TALKS ABOUT COD LIVER OIL.

THOSE WERE TREATMENTS IN THE 1930s.

WE DO NOT USE IT ANYMORE BECAUSE WE HAVE VACCINE.

THE PROBLEM WITH RFK JUANNY ROMERO., HE BURIES THE LEAD AND WRAPS IT WITH OTHER INFORMATION THAT CONFUSES PEOPLE.

APRIL HAS SECRETARY -- HOW SECRETARY WOULD BE CLINICAL THAT EVERYBODY HAS TO GET VACCINATED.

>> IN 2021 HE WAS PETITIONING THE FDA TO REVOKE AUTHORIZATION FOR ALL COVID VACCINES FOR TO NOT APPROVE ANY VACCINES FORD IN THE FUTURE.

WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT CONSIDERING NOW THE HEAD OF THE FDA AS SOMEONE WHO REPORTS TO HIM?

TWO WE ALL HOPE THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN.

IT WOULD BE A TERRIBLE PRECEDENT.

THERE IS A MECHANISM TO REVOKE VACCINES WHEN EFFICACY DATA COMES IN AND WE SHOULD.

THAT IS NOT WHAT IS GOING ON WITH COVID.

THE IRONY IS THAT HE WAS DOING THIS TO A VACCINE THAT I WOULD ARGUE WAS A GREATEST ACCOMPLISHMENT OF THE DONALD TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DURING THE YEAR OF THE PANDEMIC WHILE IN OFFICE.

GREAT LEADERSHIP, GREAT SUCCESS.

THE QUESTION IN FRONT OF US, WILL HE TRY TO DO THESE THINGS FOR EXISTING VACCINES, NOT JUST FOR MEASLES BUT FOR POLIO AND OTHERS.

WHAT WILL YOU DO FOR THE NEXT VACCINE FOR A DEADLY DISEASE THAT COMES IN FRONT OF THE FDA?

WILL HE TRY TO BLOCK IT?

WE HOPE HE DOESN'T BUT WE HAVE TO WATCH.

>> RECENTLY THE FDA CANCELED AN ADVISORY MEETING THAT WOULD HELP FIGURE OUT WHAT STRAINS OF THE FLU THAT WE SHOULD TARGET THIS COMING FALL -- FLU IS ACTUALLY DEADLY FOR THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS EVERY YEAR.

I WONDER IF THERE ARE STRAINS OF THE FLU THAT DO NOT HAVE A VACCINE ON STORE SHELVES, DOES THAT COMPOUND THE DANGERS TO PEOPLE MIGHT ALSO BE INFECTED WITH COVID?

>> EVERY YEAR ABOUT 30 MILLION TO 50 MILLION PEOPLE GET INFECTED WITH THE FLU.

MOSTLY OLDER AMERICANS.

THEY DIE OF FLU EVERY YEAR.

SOME CHILDREN AND YOUNG ADULTS, AS WELL.

WE WORK WITH WHO AND AMERICAN EXPERTISE IS IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE WE GET THE RIGHT VACCINE.

THE IRONY HERE IS THAT BY LEAVING WHO, BY CANCELING THIS MEETING, CHANCES ARE THAT WE WILL NOT HAVE A VACCINE AT ALL.

IT WILL BE DEVASTATING FOR MILLIONS OF AMERICANS.

OR WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE WHO STRAIN WITHOUT INPUT.

WE END UP BEING MORE DEPENDENT ON WHO BECAUSE THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE MECHANISM FOR FINDING A VACCINE.

I WORRY A LOT THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS PUTTING US BEHIND THE EIGHT BALL TO MAKE THE PROCESS LESS EFFECTIVE AND BE MORE DEPENDENT ON OTHERS AND LESS RELIANT ON OUR OWN EXPERTISE FOR >> I DON'T KNOW HOW PRIVATE SECTOR ENTITIES WORK WHEN IT COMES TO VACCINES BUT I WONDER IF THEY SEE THE SIGNALS WITH THE NEW ADMINISTRATION THAT THERE IS NOT AS MUCH OF AN INCENTIVE TO DO RESEARCH AND TRYING TO PUBLISH THE DATA AND TRYING TO MAKE THE VACCINES, BECAUSE WE DO NOT KNOW IF AMERICANS ARE GOING TO WANT TO TAKE THE MEDICINES?

>> THANKFULLY THERE IS A GLOBAL COMMUNITY LIKE IN EUROPE AND OTHER PLACES THAT REMAIN ACTIVE AND INTERESTED IN PROTECTING ELDERLY.

THERE IS A LARGE COMMUNITY OF AMERICANS WHO WANT TO USE MODERN MEDICINE AND WANT TO BE VACCINATED AND TREATMENTS AVAILABLE.

THERE IS ENOUGH OF MARKETS TO BE IN THIS SPACE.

WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE WAY THE ADMINISTRATION IS DEALING WITH NIH AND THE FDA AND CDC, THEY ARE MAKING IT HARDER AND LESS EFFECTIVE.

I BELIEVE YOU WILL STILL SEE COMPANIES AND IN THE SPACE.

YOU WILL STILL SEE PRODUCTS BUT THEY WILL BE SLOWER AND NOT AS GOOD.

PEOPLE WILL BE WORSE OFF AND WILL MEASURE MORE PEOPLE GETTING AFFECTED AND PEOPLE DYING BECAUSE WE ARE NOT DOING THE BEST WE CAN.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.