>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND , JILL LEPORE, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS.

>> WE WILL CELEBRATE OUR 250th IN A MONTH, BUT WE SEE WE ARE IN NO MOOD FOR A CELEBRATION.

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT FOR US TO CELEBRATE AT A TIME LIKE THIS POLITICALLY.

>> IT IS A PERFECT STORM.

THERE IS JUST SO MUCH GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY REALLY FROM TOWN TO TOWN, CITY NEIGHBORHOOD TO CITY NEIGHBORHOOD.

PEOPLE ARE ASKING BASIC QUESTIONS ABOUT THE EXPERIMENT.

OF OUR HERITAGE AND THE DIRECTION OF THE NATION'S FUTURE BETWEEN THE 250th ONGOING RULING INTENSE DEBATES THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SPURS AND WE ARE ALSO IN THE MIDST OF THE AI BACKLASH MOMENT, TECH LASH MOMENT.

I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF HOTDOGS AND PARADES AND BASEBALL GAMES AND BICYCLE RACES AND BASKETBALL GAMES.

A LOT OF REGULAR OLD STANDARD FOURTH OF JULY CELEBRATION, BUT I THINK THE LARGE EPIC MOMENT WILL ELUDE US.

>> 50 YEARS AGO, WE WERE GOING THROUGH A PERIOD THAT WAS VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT IN THE SENSE THAT WE WERE VERY TORN APART ABOUT VIETNAM AND ABOUT THE ASSASSINATIONS OF KENNEDY'S.

THE URBAN RIOTS AND RESIGNATION OF THE PRESIDENT.

BY THE WAY, LANDING ON THE MOON AND LETTING THE INTERNET BECOME MORE PUBLIC.

YET, WE RANG THE LIBERTY BELL AND HEAD OF THE BICENTENNIAL AND THERE WAS A HEALING PROCESS.

WHY IS THAT NOT HAPPENING NOW?

>> I SOMETIMES WONDER HOW MUCH OF A HEALING PROCESS IT WAS.

I WAS A LITTLE KID FOR THE BICENTENNIAL AND I REMEMBER IT MAINLY BEING A BLAST AND WE HAD TO SEW HER OWN COLONIAL DRESSES.

THE GIRL SCOUTS, WE WENT OUT AND PAINTED THE FIRE HYDRANTS RED, WHITE AND BLUE.

HAVE A KID'S EYE VIEW OF IT, BUT I SPENT A LOT OF TIME RESEARCHING WHAT IT MEANT.

ONE OF THE THINGS I CAME ACROSS WAS WONDERFUL.

IN 1974 AND 1975 WHERE THEY WENT AND JUST INTERVIEWED PEOPLE AT NATIONAL PARKS, LIKE NATIONAL HISTORIC PARKS, SO PHILADELPHIA AND SAN FRANCISCO AS MUCH AS YELLOWSTONE AND THE GRAND CANYON.

AND, ASKING PEOPLE WHAT THE BICENTENNIAL MEANT TO THEM.

THE ANSWERS ARE REMARKABLY CANDID AND WIDE-RANGING.

THERE IS A LOT OF CYNICISM.

WE FORGET HOW MUCH THERE WAS ABOUT THE REAL COMMERCIALISM OF THE BICENTENNIAL, MOCKED AS THE BICENTENNIAL, WY CENTENNIAL.

EVERYTHING WAS BICENTENNIAL THEME AND BOUGHT SANITARY NAPKINS, RED, WHITE AND BLUE THAT YEAR.

EVERYTHING.

TOILET PAPER AND ANYTHING YOU BOUGHT AT ANY RESTAURANT CAME WITH A QUOTE BY PAUL REVERE ON IT.

IT WAS TACKY AND CHEESY IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS, BUT I THINK FOR KIDS IT WAS FUN AND THOSE WERE FUN THINGS TO COLLECT.

THERE'S A LOT OF CYNICISM ABOUT THE NATURE.

WHAT DID THE COUNTRY HAVE TO CELEBRATE AFTER VIETNAM AND PENTAGON PAPERS?

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED THIS TIME AROUND IS THAT IT WAS SAVED BY THE RECOGNITION IN THE YEARS BEFORE 1976 THAT THE PLANNING WASN'T WORKING.

THE PLANNING HAD BECOME HYPER PARTISAN.

JOHNSON HAD A BICENTENNIAL COMMISSION THAT HE SET UP IN 1965 EARLY ON.

RICHARD NIXON WHEN HE TOOK OFFICE IN 1969 GOT RID OF THE COMMISSION AND APPOINTED A BUNCH OF REPUBLICANS AND WAS REALLY GET ALMOST LIKE A SLUSH FUND TO PROMOTE THE GOP AGENDA, THEN THERE WAS AN EXPOSE ABOUT THE WASHINGTON POST AFTER PUBLISHING THE PENTAGON PAPERS AND PUBLISHED THAT WE REMEMBERED THE BICENTENNIAL PAPERS THAT REVEALED THE CORRUPTION OF THE COMMISSION.

THE COMMISSION WAS BASICALLY DISBANDED AND THE GUY THAT WAS BROUGHT IN, JOHN WARNER, CONTINUED TO THE WORD ADMINISTRATION, HE HAD THIS GOOD IDEA TO SAY, THIS ISN'T REALLY A PROJECT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BUT SOMETHING FOR THE COMMUNITIES TO FIGURE OUT ON THEIR OWN.

WE WILL ANNOUNCE ANYTHING AND PROMOTE ANYTHING AND PUBLISHED A NEWSPAPER CALLED THE BICENTENNIAL TIMES LISTING THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND KEPT A CALENDAR THAT WAS A REALLY COMPLICATED TO DO IN THAT DAY AND AGE.

THEY FUNDED REALLY SOME LIKE BETWEEN HALF AND TWO THIRDS OF EVERY HISTORIC SITE IN THE COUNTRY RECEIVING GOVERNMENT DURING THAT ERA.

HISTORIC HOUSES IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD OR ORAL HISTORY PROJECTS IN YOUR CITY, MOST OF THEM ARE FUNDED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR THE BICENTENNIAL WITHOUT A SPECIFIC AGENDA OF WHAT THE STORY OF AMERICA OUGHT TO BE, WHICH IS FOR THE COMMUNITY TO DECIDE.

>> AS WE TALK ABOUT CELEBRATING ANNIVERSARIES OF THE DECLARATION, IT SEEMS THAT THEY GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO JOHN ADAMS.

I REDID SOMETHING HE WROTE ON JULY 3rd, 1776.

HE HOPES THAT AMERICANS WOULD CELEBRATE EVERY YEAR.

AND GAMES, BONDS FIRES AND ALL OVER THE CONTINENT.

FIRST, LET'S TAKE THE FACT THAT IT WAS WRITTEN ON JULY 3rd AND KIND OF QUIRKY.

HE THOUGHT THAT JULY 2nd WHEN HE WAS THE ONE WHO GOT THE LOW RESOLUTION PASSED TO BREAK AWAY FROM ENGLAND, HE THOUGHT WE WOULD BE CELEBRATING JULY 2nd.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> AMERICANS DECIDED TO CELEBRATE JULY 4th.

>> IS THAT BECAUSE THE DECLARATION IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT FOUNDING DOCUMENT?

>> IT WAS RECEIVED WITH GREAT CIRCUMSTANCE AT THE TIME WITH A LOT OF PUBLIC READINGS OF THE DECLARATION IN BOSTON AND PEOPLE CLIMBED UP TO THE BALCONY OF WHAT IS KNOWN AS THE OLD STATEHOUSE THAT HAD BEEN THE GOVERNOR'S BALCONY AND WITH THE GREAT APPLAUDS AND SHEARS.

IT WAS VERY MUCH PART OF THE EFFORT TO CONVINCE AMERICANS THAT INDEPENDENCE WAS IN FACT THE RIGHT DECISION AND THAT THE WAR WAS GOING TO BE WORTHWHILE AND THAT THE WAR COULD BE WON.

ALSO, ADAMS WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN INSISTING THAT IT OUGHT TO BE CELEBRATED IN THAT WAY.

IT REALLY DOESN'T TAKE OFF THE FOURTH OF JULY AS A BIG PUBLIC CELEBRATION UNTIL THE 1790S, BUT IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE IMPORTANT AT BUILDING A SENSE OF NATIONAL CHARACTER.

AND, A SENSE OF SHARED EXPERIENCES AS A NATION THAT THE COUNTRY HAD BEEN THROUGH THE WAR AND BEEN THROUGH THE ELABORATE AND CONTENTIOUS AND VERY CLOSE CALL OF RATIFYING THE CONSTITUTION BY 1789.

REALLY NOT UNTIL THE 1790S THAT THE REALLY BIG CELEBRATIONS AGAIN AND IT'S PART OF THE LARGER PROJECT OF CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

THEY ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT DOCUMENTS SEPARATED BY 11 YEARS.

IT'S A PREAMBLE OF THE DECLARATION THAT I THINK AMERICANS CARE ABOUT THE MOST.

OFTEN IN THE CONSTITUTION, BUT IN A WAY IT'S WRITTEN INTO THE CONSTITUTION BY THE WAY WE CELEBRATE IT ON THE FOURTH OF JULY.

WE DON'T REALLY CELEBRATE CONSTITUTION DAY, WHICH IS SEPTEMBER 17th AND IT WASN'T A HOLIDAY INTO THE 20th CENTURY.

>> YOU WROTE A GREAT BOOK ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAID, CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING THE DECLARATION.

>> THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, JEFFERSON WAS CHIEF OF AUTHOR.

JEFFERSON ALWAYS SAID, THIS WASN'T AN ORIGINAL IDEA AND IT WAS JUST AN ATTEMPT TO WRITE DOWN WHAT IS CONTAINED IN THE AMERICAN MIND.

MANY STATES DECLARED INDEPENDENCE.

IN THE DECLARATION OF RIGHTS AND AND EARLY MONTHS OF 1776 AND HAD LANGUAGE IN THEM THAT FOUND ITS WAY IN DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, BUT IT WASN'T SOMETHING THAT DROPPED OUT OF SKY, BUT IT WAS A DOCUMENT PRODUCED BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

JEFFERSON JUST ESSENTIALLY WROTE IT DOWN LIKE A SCRIBE.

THAT'S HOW HE WOULD HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT.

THESE IDEAS WERE CONSTITUTIONAL IDEAS, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION, THE MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION FROM 1780 AND SINCE THEY ARE ALL BORN EQUAL.

HOW THAT BECOMES CONSTITUTIONALIST BETTER IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE SEEKING EMANCIPATION FROM SLAVERY.

IN 1783, FAMOUS CASE IN MASSACHUSETTS WERE A WOMAN WHO IS HELD AS A SLAVE IN MASSACHUSETTS FILES FOR FREEDOM AND CONSTITUTION SAYS ALL MEN ARE FREE AND BORN FREE.

I CANNOT BE A SLAVE AND SHE WINS THE CASE.

THAT IS THE MEANS OF CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING AND DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND IN STATE CONSTITUTIONS.

IT REALLY IS UNKNOWN UNTIL JUBILEE, 1826, WHICH IS THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND IS ALSO JULY 4th OF THAT YEAR.

BOTH JOHN ADAMS AND THOMAS JEFFERSON DIED THAT DAY.

THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT FIGURES OF WRITING THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

IN 1820S AROUND THE JUBILEE, BLACK ABOLITIONISTS INSIST THAT THE SPIRIT OF DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IS CONTAINED WITHIN THE CONSTITUTION AND THEY DO THE CONSTITUTIONAL LYSING.

IN A WAY, IT DOESN'T REALLY HAPPEN UNTIL THE CIVIL WAR.

LINCOLN IS INSTRUMENTAL AND HE WRITES ABOUT THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT IS WITH THE 14th AMENDMENT DOES, WHICH IS RATIFIED AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

>> SPEAKING OF SLAVERY AND DECLARATION, LET'S ADDRESS THE COMPLEXITY OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY DRAFTS THAT GET EDITED OUT, HIS DENUNCIATION TO SLAVERY, EVEN AS HE ENSLAVED MORE THAN 400 PEOPLE AT THAT TIME.

>> THIS IS A HARD ONE FOR AMERICANS TO WRESTLE WITH AND IT HAS BEEN HARD TO WRESTLE WITH EVEN WHEN JEFFERSON WAS ALIVE.

NORTHERNERS CAMPAIGNED AGAINST JEFFERSON ON THE BASIS OF NOT ONLY HIS STATUS AS A SLAVE OWNER, BUT WAS A FAIRLY WELL- KNOWN PUBLIC SECRET AT THE TIME THAT HE HAD CHILDREN WHO IS THE HALF-SISTER OF HIS DECEASED WIFE .

JEFFERSON'S RELATIONSHIP TO SLAVERY WAS A SCANDAL IN HIS LIFETIME.

IT REMAINS SO ACROSS TIME IN WAYS THAT ARE REALLY WORTH RE- EXAMINING AND IT'S ONE OF THE PROJECTS OF JEFFERSON'S VIRGINIA HOME TO LEAD A CONVERSATION FOR THE NATION AROUND MULTIPLE MEANINGS OF JEFFERSON'S PLEA OF LIBERTY AND UNIVERSAL RIGHTS AND OUR NEED AS A COUNTRY TO FACE THE HISTORY OF SLAVERY AND ITS MANY DESCENDENTS AND LEGACIES.

I THINK IT'S WORTH LOOKING AT HOW ODD IT IS THAT JEFFERSON AS AN OWNER OF HUMAN BEINGS DENOUNCED SLAVERY AS AN INSTITUTION IN HIS DRAFT OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND DENOUNCED SLAVE TRADE, THEN WEIRDLY BLAMED IT ON THE KING.

CONGRESS DELETED THIS PARAGRAPH.

IT WAS THE LAST AND FINAL LONGEST PARAGRAPH IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, WHICH MOST OF WHICH IS A LIST OF GRIEVANCES.

>> THE ULTIMATE INDICTMENT OF THE KING FREDA >> THE ULTIMATE INDICTMENT.

THE WORST THING THE KING HAS DONE, BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN SOME EFFORT TO CLOSE THE SLAVE TRADE AND HE IS BLAMING THE KING FOR HAVING MADE THOSE NOT HAPPEN.

IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED STORY, BUT ANY EVENT, CONGRESS LOOK AT THE DRAFT AND SAID, WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE THAT OUT IN ITS ENTIRETY.

THIS IS A TIME WHERE PEOPLE IN ENGLAND WHO ARE NOT SUPPORTIVE OF THE AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT LIKES TO POINT OUT THE HYPOCRISY OF AMERICANS WHO ARE CRYING OF LIBERTY WHILE HOLDING MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS IN THE STATE OF SLAVERY AND THAT IT WOULD CALL MORE ATTENTION TO THE HYPOCRISY TO PUT THE LANGUAGE IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND IT'S ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS AGAINST IT.

>> ONE OF THE GREATEST CONTRADICTIONS IS WHEN THEY ARE SITTING THERE IN THE ROOM AND YOU MENTIONED SALLY, BUT IN THAT ROOM IS ROBERT, OLDER BROTHER AND ENSLAVED VALLEY OF THOMAS JEFFERSON WHO CAME UP WITH THEM.

EXPLAIN TO ME THE COMPLEXITIES THAT MUST HAVE BEEN GOING ON IN JEFFERSON'S HEAD.

>> IS IN PART DETERMINED THE INTIMACY OF THE RELATIONSHIP, TOO.

WOULD HAVE SHAVED JEFFERSON EVERY DAY.

WOULD HAVE DRESSED JEFFERSON EVERY DAY.

HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN FETCHING BOOKS OR PAPERS FOR HIM IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER ENGAGED IN THIS PROJECT.

HE'S A VERY MYSTERIOUS FIGURE IN HISTORICAL RECORD WITH THE HISTORICAL RECORD INCREDIBLY ASYMMETRICAL AND WE KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT THOMAS JEFFERSON AND KNOW SO LITTLE OF ABOUT ROBERT HEMMINGS.

SO MANY HISTORIANS HAVE DONE TO RECOVER THAT LIFE AND THE LIFE OF SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE HELD BY JEFFERSON IN PARTICULAR JUST BECAUSE THE STORY IS SO IMPORTANT TO THE NATION'S FOUNDING.

THE BUILDING IN WHICH JEFFERSON DID THAT WRITING WAS ACTUALLY DESTROYED, BUT A REPLICA WAS BUILT DURING THE BICENTENNIAL, WHICH IS A FASCINATING MOMENT AND A MONUMENT TO THE WRITING OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND AN EXACT REPLICA OF THE BUILDING IN WHICH JEFFERSON DID THE WRITING WHILE ROBERT WAITED ON HIM.

IT'S CALLED DECLARATION HOUSE AND THERE'S AN AMAZING ARTIST CALLED CLARK WHO DID AN ILLUSTRATION THAT YEAR WHO REALLY TRIED TO WRESTLE WITH THE LEGACY OF THAT MOMENT OF THE NATION'S FOUNDING AND SHE FOUND PHOTOGRAPHS OF DESCENDENTS OF JEFFERSON AND SALLY HEMMINGS AND ALL OF THE DESCENDENTS OF ALL OF THE HEMMINGS IS SOME WHO WERE RELATED AND SOME WERE NOT PRE- SHE INTERVIEWED A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, AS WELL AS USING PHOTOGRAPHS.

ONTO THE WINDOWS OF THIS BEAUTIFUL BUILDING FROM THE INSIDE WHERE SHE PROJECTED THEIR EYES.

IT IS LIKE ALICE IN WONDERLAND.

HE WALKED ON THE STREET OF PHILADELPHIA AND LOOK AT THE BEAUTIFUL BUILDING AND THERE ARE GIANT EYES LOOKING AT EACH OF THE WINDOWS.

THEY ARE THE EYES OF THE DESCENDENTS OF JEFFERSON AND HEMMINGS JUST OCCUPYING THAT SPACE, BEARING WITNESS AND LOOKING UPON YOU AND THEY ARE MOVING AND ARE ANIMATED, BECAUSE SHE IS VIDEOTAPING THEM.

SOME PEOPLE ARE SMILING AND TELLING STORIES.

SHE ASKED TO TELL FAMILY STORIES.

I THINK IT'S AN EXAMPLE IN THE WAY IN WHICH ART AND STORYTELLING AND POETRY HISTORICAL WRITING PUBLIC HISTORY PROJECTS ARE ABLE TO DO THE REALLY IMPORTANT WORK OF CELEBRATING THE NATION'S FOUNDING, THE WRITING OF DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ALSO INVITING US TO THINK ABOUT OUR PLACE IN THE NATION'S STORY AND THE PLACE OF PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT FOUNDERS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE ONGOING NATURE OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN ONE OF YOUR BOOKS ABOUT HOW WE EACH TRIED EACH SIDE SOMETIMES TO CAPTURE HISTORY AND SOMETIMES ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT OUR FOUNDING, WE MAKE IT OR DEMONIZING IT AND TOTALLY SUGARCOAT IT.

IS THAT HAPPENING WORSE RIGHT NOW?

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S WORSE, BUT I THINK IT IS DANGEROUS.

IT'S ALWAYS DANGEROUS WHEN YOUR VIEW OF THE PAST MAPS ON CONVENIENTLY TO HER POLITICAL PREFERENCES AND I THINK IF THAT SEEMS FAMILIAR TO YOU, YOU SHOULD BE CONCERNED.

I THINK WE HAVE A HYPERPOLARIZED POLITICS AND HYPERPOLARIZED SENSE OF THE AMERICAN PAST AND IT'S NOT WORSE IT MAY BE THAN IT HAS BEEN IN OTHER MOMENTS, BUT MORE DANGEROUS THAN IT HAS BEEN FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL AISLE, WHICH HAS BEEN INCREASINGLY DOCUMENTED IN PUBLIC OPINION RESEARCH, SO WHEN YOU HAVE A VIEW OF THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE THAT IS RECONCILABLE WITH THE VIEWS OF TIME HELD BY PEOPLE WHOM WHICH YOU DISAGREE POLITICALLY AND YOU ALSO THINK MAYBE THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY THAT YOU MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT WRONG.

YOU MAY ENTERTAIN THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOU ARE SO RIGHT THAT VIOLENCE MIGHT BE A PROPER MEANS TO ADVANCE YOUR VERSION OF THESE EVENTS.

THAT IS AN INSURRECTIONARY POLITICAL CULTURE.

>> JILL LEPORE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS A LOT.