>>> COMING UP, HE'S CALLED HIMSELF A POLITICAL ACCIDENT, BUT ONE THAT WAS WAITING TO HAPPEN.

I TALK WITH FOUR-TERM IDAHO GOVERNOR CECIL ANDRUS AND HIS FORMER PRESS SECRETARY, CHRIS CARLSON, ABOUT A NEW BOOK CARLSON'S WRITTEN ON ANDRUS'S LONG CAREER IN PUBLIC SERVICE.

THAT'S "DIALOGUE," NEXT.

STAY TUNED.

>> WELCOME TO "DIALOGUE."

I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.

>>> HE'S ONE OF THE MOST RECOGNIZED FACES IN IDAHO, IN NO SMALL PART TO ALL THE SHOE LEATHER HE WORE OUT TRAVELING ACROSS THE STATE IN HIS 14 YEARS AS IDAHO'S CHIEF EXECUTIVE.

CECIL ANDRUS WAS NOT ONLY IDAHO'S LONGEST SERVING GOVERNOR, HE'S ALSO THE FIRST IDAHOAN TO SERVE IN A PRESIDENTIAL CABINET AS SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR UNDER PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER.

ANDRUS'S CAREER IN PUBLIC SERVICE IS CHRONICLED IN A NEW MEMOIR CALLED "IDAHO'S GREATEST GOVERNOR," BY ONE OF HIS FORMER PRESS SECRETARIES, CHRIS CARLSON.

AND I'M PLEASED TO HAVE GOVERNOR ANDRUS AND CHRIS CARLSON HERE TO REMINISCE A BIT AND PERHAPS OFFER SOME OPINIONS ON TODAY'S POLITICAL LANDSCAPE AS WELL.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING US HERE.

WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO THE NEXT 30 MINUTES.

>> ALL RIGHT.

AND ONE NOTE, BECAUSE THIS IS A TAPED PROGRAM, THERE WILL BE NO PHONE CALLS.

FIRST TO YOU, MR.

CARLSON, THE TITLE.

I'LL LET YOU TALK ABOUT WHY YOU CHOSE IDAHO'S GREATEST GOVERNOR TO BE THE TITLE OF THIS BOOK.

>> FIRST, I THINK IT'S INCONTESTABLE.

SOME PEOPLE MAY WANT TO ARGUE IT, BUT ANYBODY THAT'S FAMILIAR WITH HISTORY, FAMILIAR WITH THE RECORD THAT HE ESTABLISHED DURING HIS TENURE AS GOVERNOR, AND KNOWS THE MAN PERSONALLY, WOULD AGREE WITH ME 100%.

>> I'VE GOT TO JUMP IN AND SAY, I OBJECTED TO THIS TITLE.

IT'S CHRIS'S MEMOIR, HE WROTE THE BOOK, HE'S THE AUTHOR, I'M NOT.

THAT TITLE, WHEN PEOPLE SAY, THAT'S YOUR BOOK, YOU WROTE IT, THAT'S ARROGANT, CONCEITED, SO-AND-SO.

FRANKLY, OTHER GOVERNORS' KIDS OUGHT TO SAY MY DAD'S THE BEST GOVERNOR.

I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH STEVE SMILEY, HIS FATHER WAS A THREE-TERM GOVERNOR A. SUCCESSFUL GOVERNOR, AND STEVE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO SAY, "MY DAD WAS."

IT'S LIKE LITTLE KIDS IN A PLAYGROUND SAYING MY DADDY CAN BEAT YOUR DADDY.

I'M FLATTERED THAT CHRIS FEELS THAT STRONGLY ABOUT WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO DO, BUT IF THAT DECISION IS EVER MADE, AND I DOUBT THAT IT WILL BE, IT WILL BE MADE BY HIS TORIANS IN THE FUTURE, NOT BY FAMILY MEMBERS.

THERE IT IS, THERE'S A COLORFUL BOOK.

HE AND SCOTT BEGINSON PUT IT TOGETHER, SO I'LL LIVE WITH IT I GUESS.

>> I LEARNED WINNING IS EVERYTHING FOR YOU, SO YOU COULDN'T WIN THIS ARGUMENT NEW COULDN'T GET THE TITLE CHANGED?

YOU COULDN'T OBJECT ENOUGH?

>> I NO LONGER SIGN HIS PAYCHECK.

>> OH.

>> I'LL CONFESS, THERE'S A LITTLE METHOD TO THE MARYLANDNESS SO TO SPEAK.

THAT IS, TO SELL A BOOK YOU WANT TO SOMETIMES GENERATE A LITTLE CONTROVERSY, AND THE TITLE WAS MY WAY OF ENSURING THAT THERE WAS SOME DEBATE AND I'M PLEASED TO SAY SOME PEOPLE ROSE TO THE DEBATE.

>> I TOLD HIM, I CAN GIVE YOU A LIST OF A HUNDRED REAL QUICK THAT WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOU.

AND MOST OF THEM HAVE COME TO ME, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY'VE COME TO HIM.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, WHY DID YOU WANT TO WRITE THIS BOOK?

AFTER ALL, I HAVE ANOTHER BOOK ON THE TABLE HERE, "CECIL ANDRUS, POLITICS WESTERN STYLE" THAT YOU COROTE WITH JOE CONALLY.

WHY DID YOU FEEL IT WAS NECESSARY TO WRITE THIS BOOK, ESPECIALLY AT THIS TIME?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I FELT THE ORIGINAL BOOK WAS MORE A SERIES OF HOW GOVERNOR ANDRUS SOLVED PROBLEMS, FROM NUCLEAR WASTE ISSUE TO THE WILDERNESS ISSUE, TO THE ALASKA LANDS ISSUE.

THIS BOOK IS A PERSONAL REMINISCE ENS THAT I THINK TELLS MORE ABOUT THE MAN HIMSELF.

IT FILLS IN SOME GAPS ABOUT HIS EARLY CHILDHOOD, HIS TEENAGE YEARS, THE TIME UP TO WHEN HE RAN FOR GOVERNOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND THEN THROUGH ANECDOTES IT GIVES PEOPLE I THINK A VERY GOOD, BETTER FEEL FOR THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT MAKE HIM SUCH NOT ONLY A GREAT GOVERNOR, BUT GREAT HUMAN BEING.

>> DON'T FORGET, WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH I HAD A LOT OF HELP, VERY GOOD PEOPLE WORKING IN STATE GOVERNMENT, ON THE OUTSIDE TOO, THAT HELPED ME.

>> AND THAT'S ONE OF THE POLITICAL AXIOMS YOU MENTION, IS TO HIRE GOOD PEOPLE AND TRUST THEM.

YOU MENTIONED JOHN EVANS' SON, ROBERT SMILEY'S SON, IN A WAY, THAT'S THE RELATIONSHIP THAT THE TWO OF YOU DEVELOPED.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> I'VE SEEN EMAILS BACK AND FORTH, YOU CALL EACH OTHER DAD AND KID, AND -- WE'VE GOT SOME PICTURES, BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU STARTED OUT WORKING FOR GOVERNOR ANDRUS.

WHAT DID YOU SEE IN THIS YOUNG MAN WHO WAS A 1968 GRADUATE FROM COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, A LITTLE LONG HAIRED HERE, WHAT DID YOU SEE IN HIM THAT MADE YOU WANT TO HIRE HIM?

>> A LOT OF TALENT.

HE WENT THROUGH COLUMBIA IN THREE YEARS WITH HONORS, GOT HIS MASTER'S DEGREE IN A YEAR.

HE'S EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT YOUNG MAN.

YEAH, HI TO CLEAN HIM UP A LITTLE BIT.

HE HAD TO GET A HAIRCUT AND SHINE HIS SHOES.

>> TEACH HIM HOW TO TIE A TIE?

>> I NEVER ACCOMPLISHED THAT.

>> MENTORING IS A BIG PART OF THIS BOOK, BOTH GOVERNOR ANDRUS'S MENTORSHIP OF YOU, CHRIS, BUT FRANKLY, YOU WRITE ABOUT THE MENTORS FOR THE GOVERNOR AS WELL.

SOME OF WHOM WERE NOT THE SAME PARTY AS YOU.

AND WE HAD A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS COME IN FROM PEOPLE ON OUR FACEBOOK PAGE ALMOST AS SOON AS I WROTE I WAS DOING THIS INTERVIEW WITH YOU AND DID PEOPLE HAVE QUESTIONS, WITHIN MINUTES PEOPLE WROTE THE SAME QUESTION.

MANY PEOPLE WROTE IN AND SAID, WHAT DOES GOVERNOR ANDRUS THINK OF THE EXTREME PARITY SANSHIP OF THE CURRENT POLITICAL CLIMATE?

ANOTHER PERSON, HOW DO WE GET POLITICIANS WORKING TOGETHER AGAIN?

SO THIS MENTORSHIP THAT USED TO HAPPEN ACROSS PARTY LINES, AND WE HAVE A PICTURE OF YOU WITH SENATOR SIMPSON FROM WYOMING AS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THAT, HE EVEN WROTE ON THIS PICTURE, EVEN THOUGH HAVE YOU SOME FLAWED THINKING, CEC, I STILL RESPECT YOU.

WHERE HAS THAT GONE?

>> WELL, ALAN SIMPSON IS A FRIEND OF MINE.

YES, HE'S A MEMBER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT HE LIKES MYSELF SPEAKS HIS MIND RATHER DIRECTLY.

>> CAN WE GET BACK TO THAT TIME?

>> I WOULD HOPE WE COULD, BUT THE WAY IT'S GOING RIGHT NOW, I'M DOUBTFUL THAT WE'LL EVER GET BACK TO WHERE WE WERE BEFORE.

BUT PHIL BAT AND I HAVE WORKED TOGETHER SIDE BY SIDE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK CAUSES THIS -- IN 1998 YOU WROTE ABOUT THIS.

THIS IS NOT NEW.

>> NO.

I SAW IT START TO CHANGE IN THE ELECTION OF 1990, WHEN FRANK CHURCH WAS DEFEATED BY STEVE SIMS, AND THERE WAS THAT GIVE AWAY OUR PANAMA CANAL, THE POSSESSIVENESS OF THAT, AND THE 98 TINESS THAT WENT WITH IT.

THE FALSENESS IN ADVERTISING AND POLITICAL COMMERCIALS, AND IT JUST GOT WORSE AND IT GOT WORSE AND IT GOT WORSE.

>> IT'S THE DEMONIZATION OF YOUR OPPONENT.

SENATOR SIMPSON TALKS ABOUT RESPECT.

THERE IS NO RESPECT -- >> WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING?

>> BECAUSE I THINK PARTIES HAVE BECOME SO VESTED IN THE INTEREST GROUPS THAT PROVIDE THE MONEY, THAT THEY DON'T ALLOW FOR REACHING ACROSS THE AISLE AND WORKING TOWARDS THE MIDDLE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER SIMPSON, REPRESENTATIVE MIKE SIMPSON FROM IDAHO.

HE'S WORKING ACROSS THE AISLE RIGHT NOW WITH AMONG OTHERS, HEATH SHULER, A DEMOCRAT FROM NORTH CAROLINA, TO ADDRESS THE SUPER COMMITTEE AND DEFICIT REDUCTION.

AND THERE'S POTENTIALLY SOME RISK, BECAUSE HE SAID PUT EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE, INCLUDING REVENUES, WHICH IS CODE FOR TAXES.

>> WHAT YOU HAVE -- THAT'S AN ADJUSTMENT.

HE DOESN'T SAY WHETHER THEY'RE RAISING THEM OR REDUCING THERNLINGS OR WHO WILL BEAR THE BURDEN.

>> DO YOU LIKE THIS ACROSS THE AISLE WORK -- >> IT'S AN ABSOLUTE MUST.

IF YOU DO NOT, STEVE McCONNELL IN THE SENATE HAS SAID FROM THE VERY BEGINNING THAT THE ONLY THING THEY WANT TO DO IS TO MAKE SURE THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT OBAMA, IS NOT REELECTED.

THAT'S LIKE CASTING A SPEAR INTO THE OTHER SIDE, AND THE DISCIPLINE, AND THAT DISCIPLINE IS HERE IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE ALSO TO WHERE ONE PARTY IS SO DOMINANT, THEY GET AWAY WITH NOT ONLY UNETHICAL SITUATIONS, BUT ILLEGAL SITUATIONS.

>> MEANING -- >> YOU TAKE SENATOR McGEE'S SITUATION, COULD I GO THROUGH A WHOLE LITANY OF THOSE.

THE LEGISLATOR WHO HASN'T PAID HIS TAXES TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR TO THE STATE.

IS THAT ETHICAL?

IS THAT RIGHT?

SHOULD HE HAVE BEEN QUESTIONED ABOUT THAT, OR CASTIGATED OR REFUSED TO SERVE, THE LEGISLATOR FROM IDAHO FALL WHO'S PUT THE BILL IN HIS DESK DRAWER THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO CLOSE THAT PUBLIC THOROUGHFARE THROUGH HIS OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY, THE LIST JUST GOES ON AND ON AND ON.

>> SO WHY AREN'T MORE DEMOCRATS BEING ELECTED THEN?

>> WELL, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

NUMBER ONE I WOULD SAY THE CRACK PARTY IN THE STATE OF -- THE DRAK PARTY IN THE STATE OF IDAHO HAS NOT BEEN STRONG FINANCIALLY.

YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A STRONG CANDIDATE TO RUN FOR OFFICE, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE HAD TOO LITTLE OF.

WE HAVEN'T BEEN BULLIED, BUT WE HAVE NOT HAD A FARM CLUB, SO TO SPEAK.

>> BUT THEY'VE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THE CECIL ANDRUS BRAND OF POLITICS, THE LUNCH BUCKET POLITICS.

>> WE HAVE PHOTOS OF YOU CAMPAIGNING IN THE EARLY DAYS.

THE LOG -- YOU THINK THAT'S HURT THEM?

>> I THINK THAT THE PARTY HAS EVOLVED IN IDAHO FROM WHAT I CALL THE CECIL ANDRUS LUNCH BUCKET DEMOCRATS THAT CARE ABOUT EDUCATION, CARE ABOUT JOBS, CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT, YOU CAN DO ALL AND DO IT WITHIN A BALANCED BUDGET, AND THEY'VE MOTIVATED OUR MOVE TO I GUESS MORE OF WHAT'S KNOWN AS THE WINE AND CHEESE LIBERAL SET, AND THAT IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE BASIC VALUES OF IDAHO.

>> NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER DEMOCRAT, JFK, THE ANECDOTE IS WELL TOLD IN THIS BOOK, AND YOURS ABOUT YOUR INSPIRATION LISTENING TO JOHN F. KENNEDY AS HE MADE A QUICK SPEECH LEWISTON -- >> 1960.

>> ON HIS WAY TO PORTLAND.

>> I REMEMBER IT VERY WELL.

>> AND IN THE BOOK YOU MENTION THAT YOU GOT SOME OF THE SAME FEELING WHEN YOU INTRODUCED BARACK OBAMA WHEN HE CAME HERE IN 2008.

LET'S TAKE A LISTEN TO THAT INTRODUCTION BY GOVERNOR ANDRUS.

>> SO LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, IT GIVES ME A GREAT DEAL OF PLEASURE TO BE ABLE TO PRESENT TO YOU AND TO ENDORSE COMPLETELY THE MAN THAT I BELIEVE CAN BE, SHOULD BE, AND WITH YOUR HELP WILL BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE SENATOR FROM ILLINOIS, BARACK OBAMA!

>> TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS LIKE.

>> 14,000 PEOPLE IN THE PAVILION OVER THERE.

>> WHY DOESN'T THAT TRANSLATE TO ELECTIONS HERE -- >> THE ELECTRICITY IN THE AIR, THE -- >> FOR DEMOCRATS, THOUGH?

>> THAT QUESTION IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ANSWER.

IF I HAD THE ANSWER, WE'D HAVE THE MAJORITY IN THE LEGISLATURE.

>> BUT YOU HAD -- YOU SAID IT WAS ELECTRIC IN THERE?

>> YEAH, IT WAS ELECTRIC IN THERE.

AND YOU HAD 14,000 PEOPLE INSIDE, 2,000 PEOPLE OUTSIDE, AND THE FIRE MARSHAL SAID I'M LEAVING TOWN.

IT WAS A SITUATION WHERE THAT MAN HAD THE ABILITY, LIKE JOHN F. KENNEDY, TO INSTILL IN THE PEOPLE THE FEELING THAT, YES, WE CAN DO THIS, YES, WE CAN BRING BACK THE TWO PARTIES, WE CAN SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OF THE PEOPLE.

WE'VE GONE TOO FAR AWAY FROM THAT NOW.

AND I DON'T WANT TO BE A PESSIMIST, BUT I -- UNTIL MIKE SIMPSON CAME FORWARD THE OTHER DAY WITH A GROUP, I DIDN'T SEE ANYONE ATTEMPTING TO BRING THEM BACK TOGETHER.

IF MIKE CAN PULL THAT OFF, MY HAT'S OFF TO HIM.

>> DO YOU THINK BARACK OBAMA STILL HAS THE MANDATE, OR ARE YOU DISAPPOINTED -- >> IT'S DEFLATED, I THINK WOULD BE THE WORD.

HE'S STILL THERE.

IF I'M DISAPPOINTED, I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT HE DID NOT COME OUT WITH THE STRENGTH THAT HE HAD AND USE IT THE WAY HE SHOULD HAVE IN POLITICS.

IN POLITICS IF -- YOU'VE GOT TO KNOW HOW TO COUNT F YOU'VE GOT THE VOTES, YOU USE THEM.

AND YOU MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE ARE WITH YOU.

HE DID NOT DO THAT.

HE KEPT SAYING, OH, I'LL WRAP MY ARMS AROUND MY OPPONENTS OVER THERE.

EVERY TIME HE DID THAT THE OPPONENTS JUST CUT HIS FINGERS OFF.

>> HE COULD TAKE SOME LESSONS IN LEADERSHIP, THOUGH, FROM CECIL ANDRUS.

A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE WOULD BE, WE TALKED EARLIER ABOUT SENATOR SIMPSON, THE COMMISSION THAT HE AND BOALS WORK ORDER TO ADDRESS THE DEFICIT, COME UP WITH CORRECTIVE FORMULAS.

GOVERNOR ANDRUS, WERE HE PRESIDENT, WOULD HAVE BACKED THAT TO THE HIT.

>> AND YOU BELIEVE, YOU SAY IN THE BOOK THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT GOVERNOR ANDRUS COULD HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT IN 1988.

>> I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT, IF HE HAD WANTED TO, HE COULD HAVE BEEN.

>> I WOULDN'T ENTER INTO THAT DISCUSSION.

THE BEST JOB THAT I'VE EVER HAD IS BEING GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF IDAHO.

BECAUSE YOU'RE THE PERSON IN CHARGE OF DRIVING THE TRAIN.

YOU'RE THE CEO, YOU'VE GOT TO GET IT DONE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT OUR NEWEST CONGRESSMAN, CONGRESSMAN LABRADOR.

HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING EXPHIM WHAT'S YOUR ASSESSMENT SO FAR OF HIS PERFORMANCE?

>> HE APPEARS TO BE TOTALLY IN BED WITH THE VERY RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVE GROUP, THE TEA PARTY FOLKS AND THE OTHERS.

IT'S TOO EARLY TO PASS JUDGMENT ON HIM.

LET'S SEE THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING ALL THE TALKING, PUT THAT INTO RESULTS.

I HAVEN'T SEEN VERY MANY RESULTS.

>> ONE OF THE QUOTES THAT IS MENTIONED THAT YOU LIKE IS FROM TEDDY ROOSEVELT, THE GOVERNMENT IS US.

WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT, YOU AND I. AND I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT.

BOTH OF YOU.

IT KIND OF SEEMS THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THAT ARE TALKING ABOUT LACK OF REPRESENTATIONAL DEMOCRACY.

>> THE PROBLEM WITH THAT SITUATION, AS I SEE IT, THEY ARE SAYING, WHICH WE WOULD ALL AGREE, IT'S BROKEN.

LET'S FIX IT.

BUT THEY HAVE NOT COME OUT AND SAID, THIS IS HOW YOU FIX IT.

YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A SOLUTION.

YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT'S BETTER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE, OR YOU WILL NOT GENERATE THE SUPPORT OF THE GENERAL POPULATION AND THE PEOPLE THAT GO TO THE POLLS.

>> TOO AMORPHOUS FOR YOU.

YOU KEPT 10 GOALS ON A PIECE OF PAPER.

YOU'RE A 1968 GRADUATE OF COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS MOVEMENT?

>> I THINK IT STRUCK A CHORD IN THE SENSE THAT IDENTIFIES INCOME DISPARITY AND THE GROWING GAP BETWEEN THE MIDDLE CLASS, SUBSIDIZING THE UPPER 1-TENTH OF 1%.

DO QUESTION THE METHODS AND I DO SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE I BELIEVE THINK THAT THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE PERFECT JOB INSTEAD OF TAKING A JOB.

I COULDN'T HELP NOTICING, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, GOVERNOR GREGOIRE, PUT OUT A CALL FOR 3,000 PEOPLE TO COME TO THE ORCHARDS IN CENTRAL WASHINGTON TO HELP BRING IN THE APPLE CROP.

150 DOLLARS A DAY.

THERE'S A SIDE OF ME THAT SAID IF I COULD HAVE WAVED A WAND THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF OCCUPY WALL STREET PEOPLE IN SEATTLE SHIPPED OVER THE CASCADES AND START PICKING APPLES.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ECONOMIC SITUATION IN GENERAL.

PEOPLE SOMETIMES FORGET, I DON'T, BECAUSE I WAS LOOKING FOR WORK DURING THESE DAYS, BUT THE 1980s WERE NOT A GOOD TIME FOR THE ECONOMY.

AND WHEN YOU WERE GOVERNOR IN 1986, WE HAD ANOTHER ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, I WANT TO SAY THERE WAS LIKE 8.5% UNEMPLOYMENT.

WHAT'S YOUR ADVICE FOR NOW TO GET AMERICA BACK -- >> IT STARTED BEFORE THE TIME THAT YOU REFER TO.

THE AMERICAN BUSINESSMEN WERE SHIPPING JOBS OVERSEAS, AND FOR LOW SALARIED WORKERS TO COMPETE IN AMERICA.

WE WERE MOVING THE JOBS OFFSHORE.

AND DESTROYING THE ECONOMY HERE.

PERMITTING OUR MARKETPLACE TO BE CONTROLLED BY FOREIGN SUPPLIERS.

AND THAT WAS THE BIG ISSUE, IT'S A BIG ISSUE TODAY.

>> BUT YOU BELIEVE WE CAN ATTRACT BUSINESSES HERE TO IDAHO AND TURN THIS AROUND?

>> YES, I DO.

AND WE DID THAT IN 1988.

>> WITHOUT INCENTIVES AND ALL THAT, WITHOUT -- >> WITHOUT INCENTIVES, AND I HIRED JIM HAWKINS, AND GAVE HIM HIS MARCHING ORDERS, AND WE ADVERTISED, YOU DON'T HAVE TIME ON THIS PROGRAM, BUT WE ADVERTISED IN THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL," IN THE "LA TIMES," AND WE ACTUALLY STOLE IF YOU MIGHT SAY, EMPLOYERS FROM THOSE AREAS TO COME TO IDAHO FOR VARIOUS REASONS.

A LOWER TAX, BUT GOOD EDUCATION, GOOD PLACE TO LIVE, NICE PLACE TO RAISE CHILDREN.

AND -- >> WELL, YOU HAVE THE ANECDOTE, BRIEFLY I'LL SAY IT ABOUT HEWLETT-PACKARD COMING AND SAYING, CAN YOU GIVE US SOMETHING, AND YOU SAID NO.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANYTHING.

AND THEY STILL CAME.

>> I WASN'T QUITE THAT -- >> YEAH.

THINK ABOUT IT -- >> HE LOOKED AT ME AND I'M A YOUNG GOVERNOR AND HE SAID, "GOVERNOR, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT THAT CAN HELP US COME HERE?"

AND I SAID, "IF YOU COME HERE AND WE HOPE YOU DO, YOU WILL COME HERE ON OUR GROUND RULES, YOU WILL BE A PARTY TO WHAT WE HAVE, AND YOU WILL JUST BE A MEMBER OF OUR SOCIETY."

BUT THEN I WENT ON TO TELL HIM ALL THE BENEFITS.

AND I SAID, "IF WE GIVE YOU A BREAK NOW, THEN OUR BUSINESS PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

AND FIVE YEARS FROM NOW YOU WILL BE THAT PEOPLE TO GET SOMEBODY ELSE A BREAK.

SO COME TO US THE WAY WE ARE."

HE LOOKED AT ME AND SMILED AND SAID, "THAT MAKES SENSE."

THIS PROGRAM IS TOO SHORT FOR THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION, BUT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU WON A BET, KIND OF A FUN BET WITH GOVERNOR OTTER ABOUT THE REVENUE PROJECTIONS.

DID YOU GET YOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS?

>> NO, I HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE HUNDRED DOLLARS YET FROM BUTCH.

BUT HE AND I DISCUSSED THIS A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, AND HE SAID, YEAH, BUT YOU WANT ME TO DO IT AT HALF-TIME BETWEEN THE MAJOR FOOTBALL GAME IN PUBLIC.

AND I SAID THAT WOULD BE MY DESIRE TO SEE EVERYBODY SEE YOU HAND ME $100 SAYING THAT I HAD WON THE BET.

IT WILL BE PAID, AND IF IT ISN'T IT'S NOT THAT BIG A THING.

BUT THAT COMES BACK TO A VERY IMPORTANT POLITICAL ISSUE, AND THAT IS THE REVENUE PROJECTIONS WHERE THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY UNDERESTIMATING THE REVENUE STREAM SO THEY HAVE THE EXCUSE TO CUT EDUCATION BOTH K-12 AND HIGHER EDUCATION, AND TAKE AWAY FROM OTHER PUBLIC THINGS THAT WE NEED.

>> I LOOKED BACK ON SOME FORMER PROGRAMS WE DID WITH YOU BACK IN THE '90s, AND YOU PREDICTED BACK IN '94, '95, THAT IF TOO MUCH MONEY WAS TAKEN OUT OF -- PUT ON TO THE GENERAL FUND AND TAKEN AWAY FROM THE PROPERTY TAXES, THAT SCHOOLS WOULD EVENTUALLY SUFFER REVENUE SHORTFALL.

>> AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED, WHEN JIM RICH WAS GOVERNOR AND THEY PUT ANOTHER PENNY ON THE SALES TAX, DECREASED THE TAXES TO THE HIGHER AND CORPORATE INCOME TAX PEOPLE, AND IT ENDED UP GOING RIGHT BACK ON TO THE PROPERTY TAX.

THIS LAST SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE, THE OVERRIDE LEVIES AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, THEY SAID WE DIDN'T RAISE YOUR TAXES.

WELL, POOEY.

THEY DIDN'T, BUT THEY FORCED THE PEOPLE IN THE LOCAL AREAS TO INCREASE THEIR PROPERTY TAX TO PAY WHAT THEY DID NOT GIVE IT AT THE STATE LEVEL, WHICH THEY HAD AND SHOULD HAVE GIVEN.

>> LET'S TRANSITION TO D.C.

WE HAVE UNDER 10 MINUTES LEFT, UNFORTUNATELY.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT GOING TO THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR.

IN YOUR AUTOBIOGRAPHY YOU SAID YOU GOT A CALL IN YOUR BOOK YOU KIND OF INDICATE THAT GOVERNOR ANDRUS KNEW MAYBE THAT THIS WOULD BE IN STORE.

>> THAT'S SPECULATION ON HIS PART.

[LAUGHTER] >> SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU DID NOT KNOW YOU HAD NO IDEA THAT YOU MIGHT BE ASKED BY JIMMY CARTER TO BE SECRETARY OF INTERIOR.

YOU GAVE ALL YOUR ADVERTISING TO YOUR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

>> I WOULD HAVE TO ADMIT THAT WHAT CHRIS HAS BROUGHT FORTH IS PRETTY ACTUAL, AND FACTUAL, THAT YOU HAD FRANK CHURCH AND JIMMY CARTER RUNNING, AND I KNEW THEY WERE FRIENDS OF MINE, AND I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE, BUT I THOUGHT, I WAS LOOKING AT A STEPPING STONE TO THE UNITED STATES SENATE.

AND THAT'S IN THAT BOOK TOO.

>> THIS IS THE PICTURES OF YOU ON AIR FORCE ONE, PRIOR TO THAT WAS IN A CABINET LEVEL MEETING.

JUST REAL BRIEFLY FOR BOTH OF YOU TO COME -- TO GO FROM IDAHO TO THE VORTEX OF WASHINGTON, DC AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT TO THE CABINET LEVEL, TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT WAS LIKE.

WERE YOU PREPARED?

>> CULTURE SHOCK, EVEN THOUGH I'D BEEN IN D.C.

BEFORE AS A REPORTER.

BEING ON THE OTHER SIDE AND THE INTENSITY, I REMEMBER I GOT MY FIRST AND ONLY ULCER WITHIN ABOUT SIX MONTHS BECAUSE WE WERE GREETED, IF YOU'LL REMEMBER GOVERNOR, WITH A GAS SHORTAGE THAT WAS REALLY HURTING MANY AMERICANS AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND WE HAD TO WORK TO SOLVE THAT RIGHT AWAY.

AND THERE WERE JUST ENORMOUS CHALLENGES THAT CREATED ENORMOUS PRESSURES.

>> BUT WE MET THOSE CHALLENGES, AND -- >> WE'VE GOT A PICTURE OF JIMMY CARTER SIGNING THE ALASKA ACT.

WOULD YOU PUT THAT AT THE TOP OF YOUR PRESERVATION OF -- >> I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT IF YOU HAD TO PICK OUT ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION OR ONE ISSUE THAT WAS -- IT WAS THE PROTECTION OF THE CROWN JEWELS OF HAS CHASM THE ONLY TIME IN HISTORY WE DOUBLED THE SIZE OF THE NATIONAL PARKS AND THE REFUGES AND PUT THE PROTECTION ON 103, ALMOST 104 MILLION ACRES OF LAND.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE ONED UP 254 MILLION ACRES FOR DEVELOPMENT AND OTHER UTILIZATION.

IT WAS A BALANCING ACT, AND IT HAS BEEN SEEN THEN AS AN INTRUSION BY SOME.

TODAY IT'S BEING SEEN AS PRESERVATION.

>> I NEED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ANTIQUITIES ACT, BECAUSE I MAY BE WRONG, BUT I BELIEVE REPRESENTATIVE LABRADOR AND OTHERS ARE SPONSORING A BILL TO TAKE AWAY THE PRESIDENT'S ABILITY TO IDENTIFY OR AUTHORIZE NATIONAL MONUMENTS, WHICH WAS A TOOL THAT YOU HAD JIMMY CARTER USE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT -- YOU'RE OPPOSED TO THAT LEGISLATION?

>> I WOULD OPPOSE THAT LEGISLATION.

IT'S RIDICULOUS AND IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

THEY CAN'T PASS IT IN THE CONGRESS AND IF THEY DID THEY'D NEVER GET IT PAST THE PRESIDENT OF EITHER POLITICAL PARTY THAT WAS SITTING IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THAT IS A TOOL THAT TAKES -- THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH HAS TO USE, AND WE USED IT, BUT IT'S ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.

THAT'S WHAT TEDDY ROOSEVELT USED, THAT'S HOW YOU GOT YELLOWSTONE.

>> SO YOU'RE A FISHERMAN, YOU'RE AN ANGLER, YOU LOVE THAT.

>> YES.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SALMON.

LONESOME LARRY, THE LONE SOCKEYE, AROUND 1992, NOW WE HAVE, AND I COULD BE WRONG, BUT ABOUT 130 WILD SOCKEYE HAVE COME BACK, MORE THAN 1100 ALL TOGETHER IF YOU INCLUDE THE HATCHERY.

ARE WE BECOMING MORE SUCCESSFUL, OR IS THIS HAVING TO DO WITH THE WET -- .

>> THE BASIC YOU'VE JUST TOUCHED UPON, IT'S THE WET CLIMATE AND THE INCREASED OUTFLOW FOR THE SMOLT GOING DOWN INSTEAD OF PUMPING THEM THROUGH THE BARGES -- >> SO THE FLUSHES -- >> THE FLUSH IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF IT.

BUT THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE NOW IN THE HATCHERIES HELPS.

>> YOU'RE OPTIMISTIC?

>> YES, I'M OPTIMISTIC.

BUT A COUPLE OF LOW WATER YEARS, AND THEN TWO YEARS AFTER THAT YOU HAVE A DEVASTATION OF A RETURN BECAUSE YOU DON'T GET THE SMOLTZ DOWNSTREAM THEREFORE TWO YEARS LATE YOU'RE YOU DON'T GET THEM UPSTREAM.

IT'S GREAT, AND IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE ECONOMY IN THE STATE OF IDAHO.

THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT COMES IN FROM THE RECREATIONAL INDUSTRY IS GREAT.

>> WE HAVE JUST UNDER TWO MINUTES LEFT.

I NEED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE INL.

IN YOUR BOOK YOU MENTION THAT, GOVERNOR, YOU WANT TO LIVE TO BE 105 TO SEE THAT AGREEMENT WITH THE FEDS CARRIED OUT.

ARE YOU AS OPTIMISTIC ABOUT P THE INL SITUATION AS YOU ARE ABOUT -- >> I'M OPTIMISTIC ABOUT INL, BECAUSE I THINK IT IS THE LABORATORY THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO US.

BUT THAT THE WASTE WILL LEAVE HERE IN 2035?

NO.

WHEN YUCCA MOUNTAIN FAILED WOULD I HAVE TO LOOK TO AND YOU YOUR VIEWING AUDIT EXPWRENS SAY, I'M VERY PESSIMISTIC THAT WE'LL HAVE THAT MATERIAL SHIPPED OUT OF HERE, BECAUSE WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO PUT IT IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A REPOSE TORE AND IT GETS TO 235, WHAT ARE THE IDAHOANS GOING TO DO?

ARE THEY GOING TO WHEEL IT OUT IN A WHEELBARROW?

WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO PUT IT?

IT'S VERY FRUSTRATING, AND I DON'T WANT THEM TO SEE ANY MORE BROUGHT IN.

>> BUT YOU'RE STILL INVOLVED IN THIS ISSUE?

>> I'M VERY MUCH INVOLVED, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO BE.

AND SO IS PHIL BAT.

AND I CAN SAY PHIL AND I HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITHIN THE PAST WEEK ON THIS VERY ISSUE.

>> CHRIS AS WE WRAP UP,ND IT'S MAYBE NOT FAIR TO DO THIS IN UNDER A MINUTE, BUT HOW DID WORKING FOR GOVERNOR ANDRUS CHANGE YOUR LIFE?

>> WELL, IT OPENED SO MANY DOORS AND VISTAS TO ME, AND GAVE ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO HELP HIM IMPLEMENT AN AGENDA THAT OTHERWISE I NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN IN SUCH A POSITION TO HELP ACHIEVE SO MANY GOOD OBJECTIVES THAT WERE TRULY FOR THE PUBLIC BENEFIT.

>> DID YOU SEE ANY FLAWS IN THE GUY?

>> OH, YES.

[LAUGHTER] >> BETWEEN THE TWO OF US, THOUGH.

THIS KID HAS JUST DEVELOPED INTO AN OUTSTANDING HUMAN BEING.

>> WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

I APPRECIATE.

YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING TO FORMER IDAHO GOVERNOR CECIL ANDRUS AND HIS FORMER PRESS SECRETARY CHRIS CARLSON TALK ABOUT A NEW BOOK ABOUT GOVERNOR ANDRUS.

I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.

THANKS FOR TUNING IN TO "DIALOGUE."

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