>> NOW WE REVISIT A MOMENT THAT SHOCKED A NATION.

THE 1992 RUBY RIDGE SIEGE.

IT WAS AN 11-DAY ARMED STANDOFF IN THE MOUNTAINS OF IDAHO BETWEEN FEDERAL AGENTS AND THE WEAVER FAMILY.

IT LEFT THREE PEOPLE DEAD.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "END OF DAYS," CHRIS JENNINGS ARGUES THAT THE EPISODE ROOTED IN APOCALYPTIC, RACIST, AND ANTI-GOVERNMENT IDEOLOGY HELPED PAVE THE WAY FOR TODAY'S CONSPIRACY-DRIVEN POLITICS.

WALTER ISAACSON SPOKE WITH HIM ON THE LEGACY OF THAT WIDELY TELEVISED EVENT AND WHAT IT REVEALS ABOUT AMERICA TODAY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND CHRISTOPHER JENNINGS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> IT'S BEEN 34 YEARS SINCE THE TRAGIC EVENTS AT RUBY RIDGE.

REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT THAT STORY WAS AND WHY YOU WANT TO REVISIT IT NOW.

>> SURE.

THE STORY IN ITS MOST BASIC FORM WAS A TALE OF A FAMILY WHO HAD MOVED TO NORTHERN IDAHO FROM IOWA TO SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM A CIVILIZATION THAT THEY THOUGHT WAS DOOMED.

THEY THOUGHT THE END OF THE WORLD WAS COMING.

AND THE MAN EVENTUALLY BECAME ENSNARED IN A MINOR CRIME, SELLING TWO ILLEGALLY MODIFIED GUNS.

THE SITUATION SPIRALLED FROM THERE.

THEY HAD A CONSPIRATORIAL VIEW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT CAME OUT OF A FUNDAMENTALIST BACKGROUND THEY HAD BEEN PRAYING AND WORSHIPPING IN THESE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCHES.

HE REFUSED TO COME TO CHURCH.

AND IN AN EXPENSIVE EFFORT TO GET HIM TO COME DOWN THE MOUNTAIN AND FACE THE MINOR CHARGE FOR THE GUNS, THE SITUATION DEVOLVED, AND THERE WAS -- HIS SON WAS KILLED AND A U.S.

MARTIAL WAS KILLED AND THEIR DOG WAS KILLED.

AND THE FOLLOWING DAY, HIS WIFE, VICTORIA WEAVER, WAS SHOT.

AND RANDY WAS SHOT.

VICTORIA DIED.

AND THEIR FRIEND, KEVIN HARRIS, WHO WAS LIVING WITH THEM, WAS SHOT.

AND A PROTRACTED SIEGE BEGAN WITH NONE OF THEM -- THE FAMILY WANTING TO COME OUT OF THE CABIN.

AND IT WAS REALLY A IC SITUATION.

I WANTED TO REVISIT IT BECAUSE I THOUGHT A LOT OF ELEMENTS THAT ARE ACTIVE IN OUR CONTEMPORARY POLITICAL LIFE ARE, SORT OF, THERE IN SEED FORM, THE CONSPIRACYISM, DEEP DISTRUST OF THE GOVERNMENT, ISSUES OVER WHEN AND WHETHER FEDERAL AGENTS CAN USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST CITIZENS, ALL THINGS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY.

>> RUBY RIDGE BECAME A BIG SYMBOL BETWEEN THE CLASH BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND THE, SORT OF, END TIMES PROPHECY PHILOSOPHY, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

THAT'S RIGHT.

I MEAN, I THINK THE STORY HAS USUALLY BEEN TOLD AS A MATTER ABOUT FREE SPEECH AND GUN RIGHTS AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT ACCESS.

BUT REALLY THE WAY I TELL THE STORY AND WHAT I THINK IS THE MOST RELEVANT THING AT PLAY IS THE RELIGION, THE THEOLOGY, THAT HAS BEEN PRESENT IN OUR NATIONAL LIFE FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT THIS PARTICULAR STRAIN OF FUNDAMENTALISM THAT BREEDS THIS CON SPEAR SIMMS AND DEEP DISTRUST IN THE GOVERNMENT.

WHAT HAPPENED AT RUBY RIDGE, A LOT OF THOSE THEORIES WERE VINDICATED IN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HELD THEM.

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SAID THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO COME AND KILL YOU, AND IN THEIR CASE, THE GOVERNMENT DID COME KILL THEM.

>> REMIND US WHAT END TIMES PROPHECY, WHAT THAT MOVEMENT IS.

>> IN THE BOOK, I NARRATE HOW AMERICAN HISTORY HAS EVOLVED IN A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT WAY FROM, SAY, THE FOUNDING TO THE PRESENT, ESPECIALLY STARTING AT THE END OF THE 19th CENTURY AND REALLY ACCELERATING THROUGH THE 20th CENTURY, WHERE THE PREVAILING BELIEF AMONG A LOT OF AMERICAN EVANGELICALS AND FUNDAMENTALISTS ECLIPSED FROM A BELIEF THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD WAS COMING TO EARTH AND THE WORLD WAS GRADUALLY GOING TO BE PERFECTED THROUGH THE SPREAD OF THE COULD SAY GOSPEL TO AN APOC THE END OF THE WORLD AND NIGH AND YOU CAN MAP THE BOOK OF REVELATION ONTO THE DAILY NEWSPAPER AND SAY WHICH COUNTRY REPRESENTS WHAT BIBLICAL NATION.

AND THOSE BELIEFS REALLY SPREAD OVER THE COURSE OF THE 20th CENTURY, ESPECIALLY IN THE '60s, '70s, AND '80s, WHEN THE WEAVERS WERE GETTING DEEPLY INVOLVED WITH THEIR FAITH.

>> HOW IS IT RELEVANT TODAY?

>> SOME OF THE MOODS AND ATTITUDES THAT HAD BROUGHT INTO AMERICAN CHRISTIAN DOM AND INTO AMERICAN LIFE IN GENERAL DERIVED FROM END TIMES PROPHECY.

THIS BELIEF IN CREEPING GLOBALISM, THAT CONSPIRACY IS THE TRUE ENGINE OF HISTORY, THAT THERE'S A SECRET BATTLE OF LIGHT AND DARK PLAYING OUT BENEATH THE SURFACE OF EVENTS.

IF YOU LOOK AT ANYTHING FROM QANON TO WHAT'S BEING WRITTEN ABOUT THE JEFFREY EPSTEIN CASE, ALL OF THESE THINGS, IF YOU'VE READ ENOUGH PROPHECY, YOU CAN HEAR ECHOS OF THIS LONG HISTORY OF POPULAR PROPHECY IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> AND WHY DID NORTHERN IDAHO BECOME SUCH A HAVEN?

>> WELL, IDAHO BECAME A HAVEN NOT JUST FOR FUNDAMENTALISTS BUT FOR ANYONE LOOKING TO, SORT OF, ESCAPE FROM WHAT THEY REGARDED AS AN AMERICA IN DECLINE.

IT WAS AN INEXPENSIVE PLACE TO LIVE.

IT WAS OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE.

THE ARYAN NATION, WHICH PLAYS A KEY ROLE IN THIS STORY BECAUSE IT WAS THROUGH THEIR INVOLVEMENT WITH THE ARYAN NATION THAT THE WEAVERS ENDED UP IN LEGAL HOT WATER, ESTABLISHED ITSELF IN THE IDAHO PANHANDLE.

AND A LOT OF OTHER GROUPS THAT WOULD GO ON TO, SORT OF, FORM THE NUCLEUS OF THE MILITIA MOVEMENT.

AND THERE WAS A COUPLE OF, SORT OF, HARD RIGHT TERROR ORGANIZATIONS IN THE '80s, MOST FAMOUSLY THE GROUP CALLED THE ORDER WHO ARE COMMITTED ALL KINDS OF ACTS OF TERRORISM, BOMBINGS, ROBBERIES, MURDERS.

THEY WERE ALL CENTERED UP THERE.

IT WAS AN AREA WHERE PEOPLE TEND TO THINK OF THE OLD SOUTH AS THE HOMELAND OF WHITE SUPREMACY IN THE U.S., BY THE '80s -- MID '70s TO EARLY '90s, IT WAS THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST WHERE IT WAS HAPPENING.

>> HOW IMPORTANT IS RACISM TO THIS WHOLE PHENOMENON AND WAS IT WHITE SUPREMACIST OR WAS THAT TANGENTIAL TO THE END TIMES PROPHECY?

>> IN THE CASE OF THE WEAVERS, I MEAN, PART OF HOW THE STORY WAS, SORT OF, PROCESSED AND BECAME A BIT OF A MORALITY PLAY ABOUT THE EXCESSES OF BIG GOVERNMENT, THE RACIAL PART AND THE NEO-NAZIISM PART GOT SCRUBBED OUT OF IT A LITTLE BIT.

BUT THE WEAVERS WERE TRUE BELIEVING HARD CORE WHITE SUPREMACISTS, AND PRETTY MUCH PEOPLE IN THEIR COMMUNITY WERE.

NOT ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY WHERE THEY LIVED BUT THE COMMUNITY OF ACTIVISTS WITH WHICH THEY TOOK PART.

AND I THINK THAT THE THEOLOGY AND THE WHITE POWER STUFF WERE INEXTRICABLE FOR THEM.

THEY INTERPRETED THE BIBLE -- THERE WAS A MOVEMENT CALLED "CHRISTIAN IDENTITY" WHICH TAUGHT THE WAY OF INTERPRETING THE BIBLE THROUGH THE LENS OF RACE VERY EXPLICITLY, WHERE THE JEWS WERE THE ANTICHRIST AND THEY WERE GOING TO USHER IN THE END TIMES GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD OPPRESS CHRISTIANS.

AND SIMILAR DARK VIEWS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.

>> WHAT ABOUT ECONOMICS?

I MEAN, TO SOME EXTENT, THE WHOLE THEOLOGY INVOLVES PEOPLE, THERE'S SOME CONSPIRACY TO LEAVE YOU OUT.

WAS THERE SOME ECONOMIC POPULISM INVOLVED?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE WEAVERS LEFT IOWA IN 1983, WHICH WAS, SORT OF, JUST AT THE PEAK OF WHAT BECAME KNOWN AS THE FARM CRISIS.

RANDY'S JOB WAS A DEERE COMPANY.

HE WORKED AT THE FACTORY MAKING TRACTORS AND COMBINES.

AND THAT WHOLE REGION OF THE COUNTRY WITH IOWA AT THE EPICENTER WAS BRUTALLY DEPRESSED BY -- REALLY THE 1970s BY THE FARM CRISIS.

JUST THE COMMODITIES MARKET DROPPED AND THERE WAS A SPATE OF FORECLOSURES, WHICH BROUGHT A LOT OF CONSPIRACYISM.

EVEN THE KU KLUX KLAN FLOODED INTO THE MIDWEST, WHERE IT HAD NOT FOUND MUCH PURCHASE.

RANDY KEPT HIS JOB.

WHEN THEY WENT WEST, IT WAS NOT BECAUSE OF ECONOMIC PRECARITY.

IT WAS BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH.

THEY WERE ON THE GROUND WHEN AN ECONOMIC CRISIS BROUGHT HARD RIGHT CONSPIRATORIAL IDEAS INTO THEIR COMMUNITY.

>> RANDY WEAVER SEEMS PARANOID AND CONSPIRATORIAL.

BUT WHEN HE GETS ARRESTED, I'M GOING TO QUOTE YOUR WORDS, IT REALLY DID BECOME TO RESEMBLE EVERY -- OUTLANDISH NIGHTMARES.

WAS THERE SOME TRUTH TO THAT CONSPIRACY AND PARANOID FEELING?

>> THE WEAVERS FOR MORE THAN TEN YEARS BEFORE THEY FELL UNDER SIEGE HAD BEEN SAYING, SOME DAY OUR HOME WILL BECOME UNDER SIEGE BY FEDERAL AGENTS, AND WE -- THEY LITERALLY FILED AN AFFIDAVIT FIVE YEARS BEFORE THIS EVEN STARTED SAYING, WE'RE GOING TO KILL A FEDERAL AGENT IN SELF-DEFENSE AND THEY'RE GOING TO COME AND KILL US ALL.

THEY PROPHESIZED WITH SHOCKING PRECISION WHAT ACTUALLY ENDED UP HAPPENING TO THEM.

SO, YOU CAN EITHER SAY IT'S BECAUSE VICKY WEAVER WAS A REAL PROPHET OR YOU CAN SAY THERE IS A WAY THESE DEEP PARANOIAS CAN FUEL THEMSELVES.

>> YOU SAID ONE OF THE MOST FATEFUL DECISIONS CAME ABOARD AN FBI JET FLYING FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

OUT THERE.

TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS.

>> SURE.

THE GOVERNMENT MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES IN JUST THEIR FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WERE DEALING WITH WITH PEOPLE LIKE THE WEAVERS.

BUT THE ONE THAT WAS, SORT OF, MOST UNAMBIGUOUS WAS THIS DECISION TO REVISE THEIR OWN LAWS OF ENGAGEMENT, WHICH IS BASICALLY A WRITTEN DOCUMENT THAT SAYS WHEN AN FBI AGENT CAN SHOOT AT A CITIZEN.

AND ON BOARD THAT JET, BELABORING INTO THE MISBELIEF THAT THEY WERE SENDING THEIR TACTICAL TEAM INTO AN ONGOING FIRE FIGHT WITH A BAND OF ZEALOUS WHITE SUPREMACISTS INTENT ON KILLING AS MANY FEDERAL AGENTS AS POSSIBLE, WHEN IN FACT WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO CONFRONT WAS A FAMILY COWERING INSIDE THEIR CABIN WAITING FOR THEMSELVES TO BE KILLED.

THEY REVISED THEIR RULES OF ENGAGEMENT TO SAY THAT ANY ADULTS WITH A GUN ONCE A SURRENDER ANNOUNCEMENT HAS BEEN ISSUED -- BEARING IN MIND THIS IS AFTER A U.S.

MARSHAL HAS BEEN SHOT AND KILLED BY KEVIN HARRIS, THE WEAVERS FRIEND, THEY SAID ANY ADULT WITH A GUN CAN AND SHOULD BE SHOT ON SITE AFTER A SURRENDER ANNOUNCEMENT.

AND THE WHOLE THING UNRAVELLED FROM THERE IN REALLY TRAGIC WAYS.

BUT SUBSEQUENTLY WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DID A LONG POSTMORTEM ON EVERYTHING THAT HAD GONE WRONG, THAT WAS THE MOST OBVIOUS AND MOST OBVIOUSLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT WAS THAT REVISION OF THE RULES OF THE ENGAGEMENT.

>> ONE OF THE FACTORS YOU POINT IS TO IS THE POST-VIETNAM MILITARIZATION OF AMERICAN LIFE, IN OTHER WORDS COMING OUT OF THE VIETNAM WAR, THIS SENSE OF MILITIAS AND MILITARIZATION.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> IT WAS PRESENT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT.

IT WAS PRESENT IN THE TACTICS USED BY THE GOVERNMENT AND IT WAS VERY MUCH PRESENT IN THE WEAVERS AND THE COMMUNITY, THE WIDER COMMUNITY, OF, SORT OF, WHITE POWER ACTIVISTS THAT THEY WERE ADJACENT TO.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE THEMSELVES VIETNAM VETERANS, A LOT OF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT.

RANDY HIMSELF NEVER DEPLOYED TO VIETNAM, BUT HE WAS IN THE ARMY AND QUALIFIED TO BE A GREEN BERET, WHICH IN THE MIND OF THE GOVERNMENT MADE HIM MORE SCARE.

THERE WAS THIS NOTION OF THIS MAN WITH ALL THIS SPECIAL TRAINING WHO COULD KILL THEM.

SO, THE WEAPONS, THE TACTICS, THE WAY PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT INSURGENCY, THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT AND ITS CITIZENS WERE BOTH REGARDING EACH OTHER, OWED A LOT TO VIETNAM.

I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE RUBY RIDGE SIEGE, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE LOOKING AT VIETNAM.

THERE'S HUNDREDS OF FEDERAL AGENTS IN CAMO WITH FACE PAINT.

THERE WAS -- THE EVENT TOOK ON A MILITARISTIC QUALITY ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

>> HOW DID THE CHANGE IN FEDERAL POLICIES THAT CAME AFTER RUBY RIDGE, HOW MIGHT THAT AFFECT THE INVESTIGATIONS HAPPENING INTO THE SHOOTINGS HAPPENING IN MINNEAPOLIS NOW?

>> I MEAN, THE ANALOGY BETWEEN THE KILLINGS OF RENEE GOOD AND ALEX PRETTI AND THE KILLINGS THAT HAPPENED AT RUBY RIDGE, THERE WAS SOMETHING TO THEM BECAUSE THERE WAS A MATTER OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO PROSECUTE THE SNIPER WHO SHOT AND KILLED VICKY WEAVER.

AND I THINK THE ANALOGY, KIND OF, BREAKS DOWN AFTER THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS UNSUCCESSFUL.

QUALIFIED IMMUNITY WAS USED AS THE FEDERAL DEFENSE AND THAT SNIPER NEVER SAW TRIAL.

AND IN THE CASE OF RUBY RIDGE, I THINK THE SCALE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE, IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT IT THOUGHTFULLY, IS MOSTLY A TESTAMENT TO THEIR EFFORT TO AVOID ANY KIND OF CONFLICT OR GUN PLAY.

WHAT WE SAW RECENTLY IN MINNEAPOLIS, TO MY MIND, LOOKS MORE LIKE, YOU KNOW, DIRECT CARELESSNESS, NOT NECESSARILY -- CERTAINLY THE AGENTS ON THE GROUND, BUT THE POLICY ITSELF SEEMS DESIGNED TO STIR UP CHAOS.

I THINK THE QUESTION OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, WHAT LEGAL LIABILITY IS THERE FOR FEDERAL AGENTS WHO SHOOT CITIZENS?

NEEDS TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY, I THINK, BECAUSE AS WE SAW IN MINNEAPOLIS, THE SENSE THAT THERE IS TOTAL IMMUNITY FOR THESE CPP AND I.C.E.

OFFICERS HAS LED TO A LOT OF PUBLIC MISTRUST AND OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF TRAGEDY IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

>> YOU DESCRIBED THAT TIME PERIOD AS -- I THINK THE QUOTE IS -- AN ERA NOT UNLIKE OUR OWN.

WHY SO?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, RUBY RIDGE CAME IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE END OF THE COLD WAR AND BEFORE 9/11.

IT WAS THE, SORT OF, MOMENT IN WHICH THE AMERICAN RIGHT, ESPECIALLY, TURNED WHAT HAD BEEN A LONG-STANDING, SORT OF, WELL OF CONSPIRATORIAL ENERGY THAT HAD BEEN DIRECTED OUTWARD, LARGELY GLOBAL COMMUNISM, TURNED INWARD AND BECAME FIXATED ON THE NOTION THAT THE EVIL WAS COMING FROM WITHIN OUR OWN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

SO, THERE WAS A TIME WITHOUT AN OBVIOUS FOREIGN ANTAGONIST FOR PEOPLE TO ATTACH THEIR ANGER AND THEIR ATTENTION ON.

AND IT WAS A TIME OF, SORT OF -- IT WAS HAPPENING MORE ON THE FRINGES THAN WHAT IT IS NOW.

BUT THERE WAS A, SORT OF, POPULIST ENERGY AND WIDESPREAD CONSPIRACY.

I THINK ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE PRESENT IN OUR CURRENT MOMENT.

>> YOU REFERRED TO IT AS A HARD RIGHT PHENOMENON, FAR RIGHT PHENOMENON.

TO WHAT EXTENT WAS IT JUST A FRINGE PHENOMENON THAT HAD VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH PURE IDEOLOGY AND COULD BE CALLED FRINGE LEFT TOO?

>> I THINK THAT'S FAIR.

I THINK IN THIS CASE, THE TERM HARD RIGHT REALLY FITS.

THESE WERE PEOPLE THAT HELD BELIEFS THAT ARE COMMONLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE HARD RIGHT.

THEY WERE GENERALLY DEEPLY ANTI-SEMITIC AND RACIST.

THEY HATED THE GOVERNMENT.

THEY WERE GENERALLY CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS.

SO, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, I THINK, ARE FAIR TO CLASSIFY IN THIS CASE AS QUALITIES OF WHAT WE MIGHT CALL THE HARD RIGHT.

BUT SURE.

OF COURSE THERE ARE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

IN GENERAL, I THINK IF YOU LOOK THROUGHOUT IN AMERICAN HISTORY, THEY TEND TO HAVE A RIGHT VALENCE ONLY BECAUSE I THINK CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE, SORT OF, AN ALLERGIC REACTION TO SOCIAL CHANGE.

THEY'RE A FUNDAMENTALLY REACTIONARY WAY OF ENGAGING WITH THE WORLD.

SO, YOU KNOW THE RESPONSE TO ANYTHING NEW -- SOCIAL SECURITY WAS MET WITH A TORRENT OF END TIMES RELATED CONSPIRACIES.

WHEN OBAMACARE, AS YOU MAY RECALL, WAS MET WITH -- AS SOON AS LARGE FEDERAL PROGRAMS BECOME THE OBJECT OF THESE THINGS.

SAME WITH LARGE WAVES OF IMMIGRATION.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF CONSPIRACIES ABOUT CATHOLICS WHEN CATHOLICS WERE IMMIGRATING IN GREAT WAVES.

RECENTLY WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF CONSPIRACIES ABOUT PEOPLE COMING FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

SO I WOULD ARGUE THAT WHILE OF COURSE CONSPIRACIES EXIST ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, THEY HAVE HISTORICALLY HAD RIGHT WARD VALENCE.

>> YOU WRITE THAT THREE DECADES ON RUBY RIDGE SEEMS LESS LIKE A FINALE THAN THE START OF SOMETHING.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WELL, WHEN RUBY RIDGE HAPPENED -- AND AN IMPORTANT FACT WAS IT WAS VERY SWIFTLY FOLLOWED BY THE DISASTER IN WACO, THE MOUNT CARAMEL COMPOUND, WHERE THE SAME FEDERAL AGENCIES WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF A BUNCH OF CITIZENS IN VERY SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES.

AND THOSE TWO EVENTS REALLY, COMING AS THEY DID AT THE END OF A CENTURY, THE END OF A MILLENNIUM, LOOKED LIKE FEATURES OF THE 20th CENTURY.

THERE WERE ALL -- THERE WAS THIS FUNDAMENTALIST IDEOLOGY.

THERE WAS ALL THESE TRAPPINGS OF NEO-NAZIISM.

THERE WAS ALL THIS AFTERSHOCKS OF VIETNAM.

THOSE THINGS ALL SEEMED LIKE WHAT WE WERE LEAVING BIND IN THE 20s CENTURY.

BUT NOW I THINK IF YOU READ ABOUT THE WEAVERS, YOU GET THIS UNCANNY FEELING THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE OF OUR CURRENT TIME.

AND CERTAINLY THE EXTENT TO WHICH SOME OF THE FRINGIER IDEAS HAVE BEEN MOVED INTO THE MAIN STREAM SUGGESTS THAT RUBY RIDGE WAS THE DAWN OF OUR CURRENT AGE, NOT THE CLOSE OF THE PREVIOUS ONE.

>> CHRISTOPHER JENNINGS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, WALTER.

I APPRECIATE IT.