>>> TRUMP'S AMERICA STARTED TO CHALLENGE AND REDEFINE ACADEMIC FREEDOM.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS SOUNDING THE ALARM.

YALE PROFESSOR JASON STANLEY IS THE AUTHOR OF, ERASING HISTORY " HOW FASCIST REWRITE TO CONTROL THE FUTURE.

HOW NEW TEACHING GUIDELINES ARE STOKING A CULTURE OF FEAR AND WHY HE IS TAKING DRASTIC MEASURES AS A RESULT.

>> THANKS.

PROFESSOR, THANKS FOR TALKING >> IT IS GREAT TO BE IN CONVERSATION DURING THIS EXISTENTIAL TIME.

>> Reporter: THINK ABOUT IN WRITING ABOUT AUTHORITARIANISM QUITE A WHILE.

YOU WROTE A PIECE FOR THE GUARDIAN IN WHICH YOU SAID, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS LEAVING THE COUNTRY DOWN THE PATH OF EDUCATIONAL AUTHORITARIANISM.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> THAT MEANS THAT HE IS CREATING A CULTURE OF FEAR IN UNIVERSITIES, THEY HAVE DONE THIS IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA CREATING CULTURE OF FEAR IN K- 12 EDUCATION.

AUTHORITARIANISM REQUIRES A CULTURE OF FEAR AND REQUIRES FEELING LIKE THE STATE IS ALWAYS LOOKING OVER YOUR SHOULDER, FEELING LIKE THERE ARE VAGUE RULES THAT YOU CAN BE PUNISHED FOR AND YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS HAVE BEEN EMPOWERED TO REPORT YOU.

THERE'S OFFICIALS STATE IDEOLOGY AND IF YOU VIOLATE THE GET IN TROUBLE.

>> WHAT SPARKED YOUR LATEST PIECE FOR THE GUARDIAN WAS THIS, DEAR COLLEAGUE LETTER THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION ISSUED, THE OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUED ON FEBRUARY 14th, IT WAS A LETTER TO AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND IT REINTERPRETED FEDERAL CIVIL RIGHTS LAW.

LET ME READ A LITTLE BIT, IT SAYS THAT EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS HAVE TOXIC WASTE INDOCTRINATED STUDENTS WITH THE FALSE PREMISE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS BUILT UPON SYSTEMIC AND STRUCTURAL RACISM AND ADVANCED DISCRIMINATORY POLICIES AND PRACTICES AND PROPONENTS OF THESE DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES AND ATTEMPT TO FURTHER JUSTIFY THEM, PARTICULARLY DURING THE LAST FOUR YEARS UNDER THE BANNER OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION, DEI, SMUGGLING RACIAL STEREOTYPES AND EXPLICIT RACE CONSCIOUSNESS INTO EVERYDAY PROGRAMMING AND DISCIPLINE.

THIS AND TELL US WHY YOU WERE SO CONCERNED ABOUT THIS BUT YOU SAID THAT THIS IS THE SIGN THAT THAT IS THE INTENTION OF THE ADMINISTRATION TO MOVE TOWARD THIS PATH?

>> A DEAR COLLEAGUE LETTER ANNOUNCES IT IS THE INTENTION OF THE ADMINISTRATION TO MOVE TOWARD THIS PATH.

LINDA McMAHON'S FINAL MISSION STATEMENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, SHE MENTIONS PATRIOTIC EDUCATION AS THE GOAL HERE TO IMPOSE ON K-12 AND UNIVERSITIES.

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS FOUNDED AND BUILT UPON SYSTEMATIC RACISM AND INCLUSION.

IT IS PART OF OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS THAT WE WANTED TO TAKE MORE INDIGENOUS LAND.

SLAVERY, THE UNITED STATES IS UP ON SLAVERY THERE IS NO FACTUAL ARGUMENT ABOUT THAT.

WHEN YOU BEGIN BY SAYING THAT UNIVERSITIES IN K-12 SCHOOLS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TEACH FACTS, YOU ARE ALREADY ON A VERY PROBLEMATIC PLAYING FIELD.

PART OF THE POINT OF THESE GUIDELINES IS TO BE VAGUE BECAUSE IT ALLOWS WIDE LATITUDE TO TARGET PROFESSORS AND ENCOURAGE STUDENTS TO REPORT PROFESSORS FOR ANYTHING THAT MIGHT SUGGEST THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS NOT ALWAYS THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH AND WAS ESSENTIALLY FREE FROM SIN.

>> AS PART OF THE ISSUE TO TAKE IT FROM THE OTHER DIRECTION, CONSERVATIVES WOULD SAY THAT PROGRESSIVES OR NON- CONSERVATIVES, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY, ARE JUST MAD BECAUSE THEY ARE OFFERING AN ALTERNATIVE IDEOLOGY.

THEY'RE REPLACING ONE IDEOLOGY WITH ANOTHER.

I THINK THAT THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES AND THEY GET TO DO THAT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> THERE'S NO SUCH THING, IN A DEMOCRACY, THE STATE CANNOT IMPOSE A REQUIRED PATRIOTIC IDEOLOGY.

UNIVERSITIES ARE NOT THERE IN A DEMOCRACY TO STOKE EGOS OF THE CITIZENS OF A COUNTRY.

JUST IMAGINE WHAT YOUR CARTOON VISION OF AN AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY, IT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SCHOOLS IS TO TELL STUDENTS TO LOVE THEIR COUNTRY AND NOT QUESTION IT.

IN A DEMOCRACY, UNIVERSITIES ARE THERE TO TEACH THE FACTS, THEY'RE NOT THERE TO BREED PATRIOTISM.

THESE DOCUMENTS EXPLICITLY TELL US THE PURPOSE OF SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES IS TO CREATE PATRIOTIC CITIZENS.

THAT IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF UNIVERSITIES, THAT IS NATIONALIST EDUCATION, THAT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC EDUCATION.

WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING BY BANNING CRITICAL RACE THEORY, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY BANNING BLACK HISTORY, BECAUSE YOU'RE BANNING THE STUDY OF UNDER SLAVERY AND JIM CROW THAT HAVE REPERCUSSIONS TODAY.

YOU ARE BANNING THAT WITH THESE VAGUE GUIDELINES, THEY SAY, WE ARE NOT BANNING THAT BUT THE GUIDELINES ARE SO VAGUE, YOU WOULD BE FOOLISH TO TEST WHETHER OR NOT IT IS REALLY BANNING THAT.

>> Reporter: WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE OF THAT IS THE CASE?

I THINK THAT OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT AND SAY, THEY ARE VAGUE WHICH MEANS THERE'S ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION.

WHY DO YOU SAY THE BIGNESS ITSELF IS A PROBLEM?

>> A CONSERVATIVE INTELLECTUAL IN A NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE, WHERE I WAS ALSO QUOTED, SAID, TERMS LIKE DEI ARE VAGUE WHICH ALLOW US WIDE LATITUDE TO TARGET PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY LEAVE IT OPEN TO INTERPRETATION.

THAT IS THE POINT.

WE CAN TARGET ANYTHING WE WANT BY CALLING IT DEI.

AND THAT IS WHAT RUFO, ONE OF THE MAIN POLITICAL ACTIVISTS BEHIND THE STRATEGY SAID, HE SAID, EARLY ON, WE WILL CALL THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND PEOPLE WILL WANT TO TAKE IT DOWN.

THIS IS EVOCATIVE OF THE REPUBLICANS TO SOUTHERN STRATEGY OF CALLING ANYTHING THEY DON'T LIKE WELFARE AND THAT WOULD CREATE NEGATIVE ATTITUDES TOWARDS IT.

THE VAGUENESS DOES LEAVE ROOM FOR CONTESTATION.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO IN FRONT OF THE SCHOOL BOARD, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO IN FRONT OF A TITLE SIX OFFICE WITH A LAWYER TO DEFEND THE INTERPRETATION?

THAT YOUR TEACHING ABOUT SLAVERY OR JIM CROW OR MORTGAGE REDLINING DOES NOT FIT, DOES NOT FALL UNDER THESE PROHIBITED GUIDELINES.

THAT IS REALLY A DISTRACTION FROM YOUR WORK, LEGAL FEES ARE VERY EXPENSIVE.

MOST TEACHERS TEACHERS AND PROFESSORS, WOULD LIKE TO AVOID THAT.

>> Reporter: AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN ENGINES OF TREMENDOUS WEALTH, TREMENDOUS INNOVATION.

THERE'S A REASON WHY PEOPLE WANT TO COME FROM ALL OF THE WORLD TO STUDY AT THESE UNIVERSITIES, INCLUDING PEOPLE LIKE PETER THIEL AND ELON MUSK, BECAUSE OF THEIR ROLE IN CREATING PRIVATE WEALTH THROUGH THE ACCUMULATION OF KNOWLEDGE.

WHY IS IT, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, THAT THESE ACTIVISTS ARE SO, AND THIS ADMINISTRATION IS SO -BENT ON BRINGING UNIVERSITIES TO HEAL?

>> CAN I BE FRANK, MICHELLE?

>> Reporter: I HOPE SO.

>> THEY ARE DESTROYING MY COUNTRY, INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING MY COUNTRY, THEY SAY THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS AN ALLY.

THEY ARE TAKING DOWN THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY, TAKING DOWN THE SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES TO ENRICH THE BILLIONAIRE CLASS.

THEY ARE THROWING SCAPEGOATS TO WORKING PEOPLE, TRANS WOMEN, BLACK AMERICANS, IT IS ABOUT JUICING UP DOMINANT GROUP VICTIMS.

IT IS ABOUT TELLING WHITE AMERICANS, YOU ARE THE REAL VICTIMS.

ONCE WE TARGET ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO MADE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU WEREN'T THE REAL VICTIMS, ALL OF THE PEOPLE MAKING YOU FEEL GUILTY FOR INHERITING YOUR HOUSE FROM YOUR PARENTS WHEN THEY COULD NOT INHERIT A HOUSE FROM YOUR PARENTS, ONCE WE DO THAT, EVERYTHING IS GOOD FOR YOU AND WE CAN DISMANTLE THE COUNTRY, THAT IS WHAT IS GOING ON.

STARTING OUT WITH THE UNIVERSITIES IS VITAL.

YOU TAKE DOWN THE UNIVERSITIES, YOU TELL UNIVERSITIES ARE JUST FOR JOB SKILLS, THEY ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS ANYMORE.

YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE NOT TO GO AND YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE NOT TO GO TO UNIVERSITIES.

YOU MAKE STUDENT LOANS MORE DIFFICULT, MORE EXPENSIVE, PRIVATIZE THEM.

YOU DELEGITIMIZE THE UNIVERSITY.

'S >> Reporter: ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IS A SOURCE OF PARTICULAR IRE TO THIS ADMINISTRATION, ALSO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO MADE A POINT OF MAKING A PILGRIMAGE TO THE UNIVERSITY TO EXPRESS THEIR OUTRAGE AT WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE ANTI-SEMITIC DEMONSTRATIONS THAT STARTED IN THE WAKE OF ISRAEL'S WAR ON GAZA.

COLUMBIA AGREED TO LIST OF TRUMP DEMANDS TO REINSTATE SOME $400 MILLION IN FEDERAL FUNDING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION REVOKED AS THEY SAID FOR PUNISHMENT FOR COLUMBIA'S FAILURE TO PROTECT ITS JEWISH STUDENTS.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THE REALITY OF IT IS, THERE ARE A LOT OF JEWISH STUDENTS AT COLUMBIA THAT DID FEEL THREATENED AND DEMEANED BY THESE DEMONSTRATIONS.

SOME PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND THEY SAY THAT THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS CAPITULATION ON COLUMBIA'S PART BUT OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING, MAYBE THIS WAS A PRAGMATIC STEP TO TRY TO SURVIVE THIS ERA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> THERE ARE TREMENDOUS NUMBER OF ARAB STUDENTS THAT FELT INCREDIBLY THREATENED AT COLUMBIA, WHAT ABOUT THEM?

THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO, FIRST.

SECONDLY, AT YALE, I'M SURE THIS IS TRUE OF COLUMBIA, THERE WERE A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF JEWISH STUDENTS IN THOSE PROTESTS BECAUSE WHO ON CAMPUS CARES THE MOST ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR OF ISRAEL?

ONE GROUP ARE JEWISH STUDENTS.

THE WEIGHTED MINISTRATION IS USING THE TERM, ANTI-SEMITISM, IS SYNONYMOUS WITH LEFTISM IS IRONIC BECAUSE THE LARGE MAJORITY OF JEWISH AMERICANS VOTED FOR KAMALA HARRIS.

COMPARABLE TO BLACK AMERICANS.

BUT THE ADMINISTRATION IS USING THE TERM ANTI-SEMITISM AS SHORT JEWISH AMERICANS LIKE ME, WHO ARE HIGHLY CRITICAL OF ISRAEL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PHRASE, RIGHT TO EXIST, IT MEANS.

I DON'T WANT TO TAKE DOWN THE STATE OF ISRAEL, I'M SOME KIND OF ZIONISTS.

HOWEVER, I'M VERY CRITICAL OF THE BEHAVIOR OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

THERE WERE PLENTY OF STUDENTS, TIED FOR THE LARGEST IDENTITY GROUP IN THE PROTESTS.

WHY DON'T THEY COUNT AS JEWISH?

THE ADMINISTRATION IS SAYING THERE ARE GOOD JEWISH PEOPLE AND BAD JEWISH PEOPLE AND THE GOOD ONES SUPPORT ISRAEL'S ACTIONS IN GAZA AND BAD JEWS ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE HIGHLY CRITICAL OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND PUSH FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS BECAUSE PALESTINIANS DESERVE EVERY BIT OF POLITICAL EQUALITY THAT JEWS, JEWISH PEOPLE DESERVE.

>> Reporter: YOU ARGUE THAT USING THE PRETEXT OF JEWISH SAFETY TO JUSTIFY CRACKDOWNS ON DISSENT AND CRITICAL SCHOLARSHIP.

YOU HAVE ACTUALLY SAID THAT YOU THINK THAT THIS REINFORCES ANTI-SEMITIC TROPES, CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT QUESTION MARK >> REINFORCING ANTI-SEMITIC TROPES ALL ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

WHAT ARE THE MOST TOXIC ANTI- SEMITIC TROPES?

JEWS CONTROL THE INSTITUTIONS.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY REINFORCING THIS.

ANY YOUNG AMERICAN WILL THINK, REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY TOOK DOWN THE WORLD'S GREATEST UNIVERSITY SYSTEM ON BEHALF OF JEWISH SAFETY?

THIS WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY BOOKS.

THE HISTORY OF THIS ERA WILL SAY THAT JEWISH PEOPLE WERE THE SLEDGEHAMMER FOR FASCISM.

IF WE DON'T SPEAK OUT, IF WE AMERICAN JEWS DO NOT SPEAK OUT AGAINST THIS, THIS WILL BE A HISTORY AS AMERICANS.

IT IS THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE AS AN AMERICAN THAT I HAVE BEEN FEARFUL OF OUR STATUS AS EQUAL AMERICANS.

NOT BECAUSE OF THE PROTESTS ON CAMPUS, WHICH AS I SAID, HAD A LOT OF JEWISH STUDENTS IN THEM.

BUT BECAUSE WE ARE SUDDENLY AT THE CENTER OF POLITICS, U.S.

POLITICS.

IT IS NEVER GOOD TO BE IN THE CROSSHAIRS FOR US.

AND WE ARE BEING USED TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY.

THE HISTORY BOOKS ARE GOING TO BE HARSH UNLESS WE, JEWISH AMERICANS, CAN SAY, THIS SHOULD NOT BE DONE IN OUR NAME.

FINALLY, BY FOCUSING ON US, THEY ARE ERASING THE ATROCITIES AND HORRORS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN GAZA.

THEY ARE SHIFTING THE TRUE VICTIMS HERE, NOT JUST PALESTINIANS WHO ARE HERE, BUT THE VICTIMS IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S POLICIES.

>> Reporter: I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS HERE, FIRST OF ALL, WHY DO YOU THINK COLUMBIA HAS AGREED TO THESE TERMS?

INCLUDING BANNING FACE MASKS AND EMPOWERING CAMPUS POLICE OFFICERS TO REMOVE PEOPLE FROM CAMPUS OR ARREST THEM AS NEEDED.

WHY WOULD COLUMBIA, NOT A POOR INSTITUTION, AGREE TO THESE TERMS?

>> TWO REASONS.

FIRST OF ALL, THERE ARE PEOPLE WITHIN THE COLUMBIA STRUCTURE WHO ARE ESSENTIALLY BETRAYING COLUMBIA.

THEY AGREE WITH THIS IDEOLOGICAL ATTACK.

I THINK THAT IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC, THEY ARE NOT SEEING IT, THEY ARE TRAITORS TO THEIR OWN INSTITUTIONS.

THAT IS ONE POINT.

THE SECOND POINT IS THAT THIS, COLUMBIA IS COMPLETELY BENDING TO AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING ACROSS UNIVERSITIES, MICHELLE, WE ARE SEEING THIS CULTURE OF FEAR, THIS IDEA IF WE JUST DO WHAT THEY SAY, EVERYTHING WILL BE OKAY.

I'M SEEING THIS EVERYWHERE AND IT IS ONE REASON THAT I AM PROBABLY LEAVING THE UNITED STATES FOR TORONTO.

>> Reporter: REALLY?

I WAS GOING TO ASK, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT YOUR OWN COURSE HERE?

YOU FEEL STRONGLY ENOUGH ABOUT THIS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY?

>> YES.

BECAUSE I WOULD NOT DO THIS IF I SAW ALL OF OUR UNIVERSITIES BANDING TOGETHER.

IT IS NOT JUST THE UNIVERSITIES, MICHELLE.

IT IS THE LAW FIRMS, ALL OF OUR AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

WHEN PAUL WEISS CAPITULATED, PART OF THE REASON THEY CAPITULATED, OTHER LAW FIRMS INSTEAD OF DEFENDING THEM, WERE GOING AFTER THEIR CLIENTS.

WE SEE UNIVERSITIES SAYING THINGS INCLUDING MY UNIVERSITY, WE ARE GOING TO KEEP OUR HEAD DOWN SO WE ARE NOT TARGETED.

AS SOON AS I HEARD THAT VOCABULARY, I KNEW IT MIGHT BE THE GAME IS OVER.

BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BANDING TOGETHER IF YOU SAY, WE ARE GOING TO KEEP OUR HEAD DOWN.

>> Reporter: I WANT TO GET BACK TO YOU THOUGH, YOU ARE LEAVING?

ANY REGRETS ABOUT THAT?

YOU FEEL YOU ARE ABANDONING THE FIGHT OR HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

>> I THINK THAT CANADA IS CENTRALLY IN THE FIGHT RIGHT NOW.

I WOULD RETURN TO THE UNITED STATES, MY HOME, IN A HEARTBEAT AND I HOPE, I SAY THAT I'M PROBABLY MOVING TO CANADA BECAUSE I MIGHT RETURN TO YALE.

IF THEY ESSENTIALLY ALLOW ME WITH LEAVING BECAUSE THE POLITICAL CLIMATE FOR THE UNIVERSITIES AND POLITICAL CLIMATE FOR FREEDOM LOOKS GRIM IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE FACE A FASCIST REGIME.

I CAN BEST FIGHT IT IN A COUNTRY THAT IS DEDICATED TO THE VALUES THAT I LOVE, THE VALUES THAT AMERICA, THE UNITED STATES, WAS FORMED ON, FREEDOM AND EQUALITY.

CANADA DEFINITELY CENTERS THOSE VALUES.

I HAVE TWO BLACK CHILDREN, TWO BLACK JEWISH CHILDREN.

THE UNITED STATES, TO ERASE, TO USE ONE OF THEIR IDENTITIES AS A SLEDGEHAMMER FOR FASCISM AND TRY TO ERASE ANOTHER OF THEIR IDENTITIES IS DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC FOR ME.

THERE ARE ALL OF THESE LONG- STANDING FEATURES OF THIS COUNTRY LIKE MASS INCARCERATION THAT I WORRY, VIOLENT POLICING, OBVIOUSLY WITH TWO BLACK CONCERNED ME AS WELL.

THIS IS MY HOME, UNITED STATES IS MY HOME, I'M A PATRIOTIC AMERICAN AND I WANT TO FIGHT FOR OUR COUNTRY.

I DO HAVE TWO SMALL CHILDREN, TWO YOUNG CHILDREN AND I DO THINK THAT THE INSTITUTION THAT I LOVE ARE BEING EXISTENTIALLY THREATENED AND THEY ARE NOT DEFENDING THEMSELVES IN A WAY THAT GIVES ME ANY KIND OF HOPE THAT FREE INQUIRY WILL STILL BE POSSIBLE.

>> Reporter: PROFESSOR JASON STANLEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOU HAVE GIVEN US A LOT TO THINK ABOUT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHELLE.