>>> NEXT, A GLIMPSE INSIDE THE GLAMOUR AND THE INTENSITY OF THE GLOSSY MAGAZINE PRODUCTION IN ITS HEYDAY, THE EDITOR OF VANITY FAIR, FOR 25 YEARS AND IN HIS MEMOIR, HE REFLECTS ON HIS CAREER ADVENTURES, HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE GOLDEN AGE OF MAGAZINE AND HOW HE MADE IT TO THE TOP FROM HIS HUMBLE BEGINNINGS.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS WE OFTEN THINK ABOUT IS THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT DAD, WHEN IT IS A SUCCESSFUL PERSON AND I'M READING THIS BOOK AND YOUR FATHER IS QUITE A CHARACTER, START THERE, TELL ME ABOUT HIM.

>> HE WAS A PILOT DURING WORLD WAR II, HE DID NOT HAVE WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A MIND FOR BUSINESS AND HAD A BUSINESS THAT DID NOT DO WELL AFTER THE WAR BUT HE LOVED FLYING AND HE LOVED SAILING AND SKIING AND GOLF.

AND HE WAS A CHARACTER AND HE LOVED WOOD.

MY BROTHER AND I WERE NINE AND FIVE AND HE WOULD TAKE US TO LOOK FOR WOOD ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AT THE NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION WHICH IS WHERE WE GREW UP AND I WOULD GO OUT THERE TO FIND FREE FIREWOOD, AND HE WOULD TURN THE THERMOSTAT DOWN TO 45 DEGREES AT NIGHT, THIS IS IN A CITY WHERE IT WOULD EASILY BE 30, 40 BELOW AT NIGHT.

>> SO YOU ACTUALLY WORKED AS A LUMBERJACK, TELL ME ABOUT THOSE JOBS AND HOW IT AFFECTED HOW YOU HIRED PEOPLE WHEN YOU GOT TO BE RICH AND FAMOUS.

>> WELL, I NEVER GOT TO BE RICH AND FAMOUS BUT IT DID AFFECT THE WAY I HIRED PEOPLE, MY PARENTS AND A LOT OF THEIR FRIENDS SENT THE KIDS OUT WEST TO TOUGHEN THEM UP AND IF YOU COULD, GET A JOB AS A LINEMAN FOR THE RAILROAD.

I WENT OUT AND WORKED FOR SIX MONTHS FOR THE CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILROAD OUT ON THE SASKATCHEWAN PRAIRIE, I LIVED IN A BOXCAR WITH 11 OTHER GUYS, MOST OF THEM HAD MINOR CRIMINAL RECORDS, THEY HAD A SPOT OF TROUBLE GROWING UP.

AND I OVERCAME MY FEAR OF HEIGHTS AND LEARN HOW TO CLIMB TELEGRAPH POLES AND I HAD ONE OF THE MOST GREAT EXPERIENCES OF MY LIFE AND I ADORED ALL THE GUYS I WORKED WITH.

SO WHEN I HIRED PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN ASSISTANCE WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG, RATHER THAN SILVERPLATED INTERNSHIPS, I LOOKED FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED IN RESTAURANTS, WORKED AT A DUDE RANCH OR DONE SOMETHING WITH THEIR HANDS, AND I DO THINK THAT IF YOU COULD HANDLE, IF YOU ARE A WAITER OR WAITRESS AND YOU CAN HANDLE THREE OR FOUR TABLES OF DIFFICULT DINERS, EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE IS GOING TO COME EASY.

>> WE HAVE ENJOYED TIME TOGETHER AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHEN THE GOING WAS GOOD, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR TIME WHEN YOU WERE THERE.

>> I ARRIVED FROM CANADA, IT WAS IN THE FALL BUT IT WAS STILL WARM AND I ONLY HAD A REALLY WARM CLOTHING COMING FROM CANADA, I HAD AN OLD BLAZER AND I WORE IT TO A MEETING AND SOMEBODY AT THE MEETING ASKED IF I WORKED AS A DOORMAN.

SO I WENT BACK THAT NIGHT AND WITH A RAZOR BLADE, I SEWED THE CREST OFF MY JACKET AND IT LEFT A DARK PATCH BECAUSE THE REST OF THE JACKET HAD FADED AND I LOOKED EVEN MORE FOOLISH BUT IT WAS EXHILARATING FOR ME, I MEAN THE REST OF YOU GUYS, ALL OF YOU WERE INCREDIBLY TALENTED AND MUCH SMARTER THAN THE PEOPLE.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT TEENY CAME IN WITH AT THE TIME?

>> IT WAS YOU, CURTIS, A PULITZER PRIZE WINNER AND CHIEF BOOK CRITIC OF THE NEW YORK TIMES, THERE WAS THE WONDERFUL WRITER, JIM KELLY WHO BECAME THE EDITOR OF TIMES, STEVE SMITH THAT BECAME THE EDITOR OF U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT.

WHO AM I MISSING?

FRANK RICH BECAME THE CHIEF EDITOR FOR THE TIMES.

>> I ALWAYS THOUGHT YOU WERE THE INSIDER AND OUTSIDER, YOU COULD PLAY BOTH ROLES, DID YOU FEEL THAT WAY AT THE TIME?

>> I FELT LIKE AN OUTSIDER BUT I WAS DYING TO GET INTO THE MELTING POT AND JUST MELT, I WAS TRYING TO GET RID OF MY CANADIAN ISMS, I TRY TO DRESS LIKE AN AMERICAN, AND I JUST WANTED TO FIT IN WITH YOU.

>> ONE OF THE SUBTITLES FOR THIS BOOK COULD HAVE BEEN EXPENSE ACCOUNTS I HAVE KNOWN.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR EXPENSE ACCOUNT AT THE TIME.

>> WELL, IT WAS THE SAME AS YOURS AND THE FACT IS I HAD NEVER HAD ONE BEFORE AND TO BE IN YOUR 20s PAYING $200 PER MONTH RENT IN NEW YORK AND HAVING AN EXPENSE ACCOUNT, I FELT LIKE I WAS IN HEAVEN AND I DIDN'T COOK A MEAL FOR THE FIRST FIVE YEARS.

I DON'T THINK I TURNED ON MY OVEN ONCE.

I DON'T THINK I KNEW HOW TO TURN ON MY OVEN.

SO TO BE ABLE TO GO TO RESTAURANTS AND I REMEMBER IN THOSE DAYS, YOU RARELY WENT OUT FOR LUNCH WITH ONE OR TWO PEOPLE THAT YOU DIDN'T SPLIT A BOTTLE OF WINE AND TO ME IT WAS JUST ABSOLUTE NIRVANA.

>> WAS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THAT THAT WE SHOULD HAVE RAINED BACK KNOWING THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT IN THE FUTURE?

>> NO, IT WOULDN'T HAVE CHANGED A THING, FIRST OFF THE EXPENSES WERE SUCH A SMALL LINE ITEM IN THE OVERALL COST.

I THINK THAT IS AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT, MAINTAINING STAFF AND KEEPING STAFF HAPPY AND COMMITTED.

THEN I WENT TO CONNIE NATH WHERE THE EXPENSES WERE EXPONENTIALLY GREATER BUT, HE WASN'T JUST THROWING THE MONEY OUT THE WINDOW, HE WANTED TO MAKE IT THE DOMINANT MAGAZINE PUBLISHER IN AMERICA AND HE DID.

>> AND HE DID IT, WHICH HELPED DEFINE YOUR VANITY FAIR LOOK AND FEEL.

>> 100%, SHE WAS HER PRINCIPAL PHOTOGRAPHER AND I REMEMBER ONE TIME WE WERE A QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS AWAY FROM WHAT SHE WANTED IN HER CONTRACT AND WHAT WE WANTED TO PAY HER AND I MENTIONED THIS AND HE SAID, LET'S JUST PAY IT, I DON'T WANT TO NICKEL AND DIME HER.

>> I LOVE IT WHEN NICKEL AND DIME IS REFERRED TO $6000 PER YEAR.

I USED TO WALK DOWN THE HALLS AND I WOULD SEE YOU AND KURT HUDDLED TOGETHER AND YOU WERE INVENTING SPY MAGAZINE, WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD, WHY DID YOU DECIDE OKAY, WE WANT TO GET OUT OF TIME AND INVENT A NEW FORM OF MAGAZINE?

>> EVERYBODY ELSE SEEMED TO BE DOING VERY WELL AND I KNEW THAT I WASN'T CUT OUT TO BE TIME MATERIAL.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> I JUST WASN'T IVY LEAGUE, I WASN'T AS BUTTON-DOWN, I WASN'T AS GOOD OF A WRITER, SO I COULD SORT OF READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL AND I THOUGHT, I HAD THIS IDEA FOR A MAGAZINE AND THEN I APPROACHED JIM KELLY FIRST BUT I THINK HE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE THE EDITOR AT ONE POINT AND THEN I APPROACHED KURT AND HE WAS IN RIGHT-OF-WAY SO THAT WAS OVER 10 MONTHS, WE PLANNED OUT THE ENTIRE MAGAZINE.

>> YOU SAID YOU HAD AN IDEA FOR A MAGAZINE, I LOVE SPY BUT TELL ME, WHAT WAS THE IDEA BEHIND IT?

>> JUST A FUNNY, SATIRICAL FACT- BASED MAGAZINE ABOUT NEW YORK CITY WHICH WAS THEN AS YOU KNOW, JUST CAME OUT OF BANKRUPTCY OR NEAR BANKRUPTCY, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN IT WAS AWASH WITH THIS NEW MONEY COMING FROM INVESTMENT BANKERS, THEIR WIVES WERE THE LADIES WHO MUNCHED, AND THE CITY WAS ALIVE WITH A LOT OF CHARACTERS SHOWING OFF THE MONEY THEY HAD AND THAT WAS GREAT FOR JOURNALISM.

AND WE WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT THAT.

>> AND IT WAS BASICALLY POKING FUN AT THIS ELITE, LIKE THE TRADITION WAY BACK ON MAGAZINES.

LET'S START WITH DONALD TRUMP, HOW DID HE BEGIN TO BE A STUDIED FINGERED BULGARIAN?

>> SHORT FINGERED.

I WAS ALWAYS IN NEED OF MONEY BECAUSE I HAD A NUMBER OF KIDS, SO I TOOK IT FROM SIMON TO WRITE A STORY ABOUT HIM, AND IT WAS HIS FIRST NATIONAL EXPOSURE, SO I SPENT THREE WEEKS WITH HIM AND HE WAS VERY EXCITED TO HAVE ME AROUND.

TO BE HONEST, I FOUND HIM CHARMING, IN A SALESMAN TYPE WAY.

HE USES YOUR NAME EVERY THREE OR FOUR SENTENCES, LIKE AN ALUMINUM SIDING SALESMAN WOULD USE IT.

I THOUGHT HIS HANDS LOOKED TOO SMALL FOR HIS BODY, AND SPY MAGAZINE LATER ON, WE CALLED HIM A SHORT FINGERED BULGARIAN THAT TRULY DROVE HIM CRAZY.

>> AND HOW DID DONALD TRUMP REACT OVER THE YEARS ON THIS SHORT FINGERED BULGARIAN?

>> HE WOULD SEND ME NASTY NOTES, THAT HE THREATENED TO SUE US, THEN WHEN I BECAME THE EDITOR OF VANITY FAIR, THE TRANSACTIONAL DONALD TRUMP, HE REALIZED HE BETTER CALM THIS FEUD DOWN, WE TRIED TO BECOME FRIENDS, I HAD DINNER WITH HIM AT MAR-A-LAGO, HE INVITED ME TO ONE OF HIS WEDDINGS BUT IT JUST COULDN'T HOLD, SO I WOULD WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT HIM IN VANITY FAIR AND HE STARTED TWEETING HORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT ME, HE WOULD CALL ME SLOPPY AND DOPEY.

HE SAID MY WIFE THOUGHT I WAS A TOTAL LOSER.

HE SAID VANITY FAIR WAS LOSING STEAM, THE FOOD AT THE RESTAURANT WAS TERRIBLE.

AND I FRAMED THESE TWEETS AND HAD THEM ALL UP INSIDE MY WALL FOR VISITORS TO SEE WHEN THEY CAME TO VISIT ME.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT HIM BEING TRANSACTIONAL, EVEN THOUGH YOU POKED FUN AT HIM, ONCE YOU WERE POWERFUL, HE WAS TRYING TO MAKE IT UP.

THAT IS THE THEME OF THIS BOOK, ALL THESE PEOPLE WHEN YOU ARE AT SPY, THEY DIDN'T ALL WANT TO BE TRANSACTIONAL AND MAKE IT UP TO YOU.

>> THAT WAS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE CHAIR I WAS SITTING IN, VANITY FAIR I THINK WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO THEM AND I DID MY BEST TO GIVE THEM A FAIR SHAKE BUT THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN HOLLYWOOD HAD A DRAMATIC FALL AND WAITED TWO OR THREE STORIES ON THAT, AND I USED TO SAY, VANITY FAIR IS THE MAGAZINE THAT IF YOU ROSE TO SUCCESS, IT WOULD BE THE MAGAZINE YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE A STORY WRITTEN ABOUT AND IF YOU FELT FROM THOSE HEIGHTS, AND IT WOULD BE THE LEAST FAVORITE MAGAZINE YOU WOULD WANT IT TO BE WRITTEN ABOUT.

>> HOW DID VANITY FAIR COME ALONG?

>> THERE WAS A PERIOD BETWEEN SPY AND VANITY FAIR AND I EDITED THIS NEWSPAPER CALLED THE NEW YORK OBSERVER, IT WAS A BROADSHEET ON SALMON COLORED PAPER, VERY WELL DESIGNED BUT, I TOOK THE JOB AND I THOUGHT I COULD MAKE IT A THING AT SOME POINT, LIKE READABLE.

AND AT SOME POINT, A MUST-READ.

ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN MONTHS IN, I STARTED SENDING COMPLEMENT TREE COPIES TO FRIENDS OF MINE THAT I MET OVER THE YEARS AND I LOOKED TOO A LOT OF THEM THAT WERE EDITORS IN EUROPE AND CYE NEWHOUSE STOPPED OFF IN LONDON AND PARIS AND HE SAW COPIES OF THE NEW YORK OBSERVER AND EVERYBODY RETURNED TO AMERICA UNDER THE MISGUIDED IMPRESSION THAT THIS WAS AN INTERNATIONAL HIT, SO HE CALLED ME AND ASKED IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TWO MAGAZINES, I THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO SEE SOMEBODY LIKE GQ OR DETAILS, NEITHER OF WHICH I COULD IMPROVE ON AND HE OFFERED ME THE NEW YORKER OR VANITY FAIR AND WE HAD SPENT FIVE YEARS MAKING FUN OF THE WRITING STYLE, THE EDITOR, THE CONTRIBUTORS OF VANITY FAIR, SO WE SETTLED ON THE NEW YORKER AND I SPENT THE NEXT TWO WEEKS WORKING ON A PLAN, I ONLY TOLD JIM KELLY, MY AGENT AND MY FAMILY ABOUT THIS.

AND THE DAY THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ANNOUNCED, THEY SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE THE OTHER MAGAZINE.

AND I THOUGHT, I DON'T HAVE A PLAN FOR THAT BUT I SAID I WILL TAKE THE JOB BECAUSE WE DESPERATELY NEEDED THE EXTRA MONEY.

AND THE FIRST TWO YEARS WERE ROCKY BECAUSE THE PEOPLE AT THE MAGAZINE, I DON'T THINK THEY FULLY TRUSTED ME BECAUSE OF SPY BUT I THOUGHT IF I'M JUST MYSELF AND I TREAT THEM FAIRLY AND COMPASSIONATELY, IT'LL WORK OUT AND I WENT TO YEARS WITHOUT FIRING ANYBODY AND IN ONE WEEK I LET THREE PEOPLE GO WHICH WAS MORE PEOPLE THAN I HAD LET GO IN MY ENTIRE LIFE AND THINGS SORT OF CHANGED, PEOPLE STARTED TO COME AROUND TO THE WAY I WANTED THE MAGAZINE TO BE AND WE TRIED TO CHANGE THE HOUSE STYLE OF WRITING AND I WANTED PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER IN A FRIENDLY, RESPECTFUL MANNER.

AND FOR THE NEXT 23 YEARS, IT PRETTY MUCH WAS THAT.

>> AND YOU HAD SOME OF THE BEST WRITERS IN THE BUSINESS AND YOU JUST KIND OF RECRUITED BIG NAMES AND GAVE THEM LONGFORM, TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF THEM.

>> I WENT AFTER WRITERS, I WANTED CLEVER WRITERS TO BE COLUMNISTS BUT ALSO WANTED WRITERS WHO COULD WRITE BIG NARRATIVE STORIES THAT HAD A BEGINNING, MIDDLE AND END AND BETWEEN 8000 WORDS AND 20,000 WORDS BUT THEY HAD TO BE ABLE TO TELL A STORY.

LIKE MICHAEL HARE AND SEBASTIAN YOUNGER AND MICHAEL LEWIS AND MARIE BRENNER, EVENTUALLY WE HAD ABOUT 50 WRITERS ON CONTRACT.

>> WHY IS THAT DESIRE FOR BRILLIANT, LONGFORM NARRATIVE FALLEN OUT?

>> IT HASN'T, IT'S JUST SO EXPENSIVE BECAUSE, A WRITER HAS TO SPEND THREE MONTHS, SOMETIMES HALF A YEAR ON A STORY AND GO TO MAKE A LIVING AND WE COULD AFFORD TO PAY THEM DURING THAT PERIOD.

LIKE DOMINIC DONE, HE SPENT ALMOST A YEAR IN LOS ANGELES COVERING THE O.J.

SIMPSON TRIAL AND IT WAS A BIG THING FOR VANITY FAIR, HE WAS A HUGE STAR AND THAT PROBABLY COST US $1 MILLION PER YEAR OR MORE FOR THOSE STORIES.

>> YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH ANNA, CAREFULLY WOVEN THROUGHOUT THE BOOK, TELL ME ABOUT HER.

>> FIRST OF ALL, WE WERE VERY GOOD FRIENDS, I WROTE FOR HER FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, SHE INTRODUCED ME TO SI , SHE BROUGHT ME INTO CONDE NAST , SHE WAS A COZY COLLEAGUE AND WE HAD A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

I THINK SHE STARTED LIVING UP TO THIS NUCLEAR WINTER REPUTATION, I DIDN'T FIND THAT TO BE THE CASE UNTIL MUCH LATER IN OUR RELATIONSHIP.

BUT EVENTUALLY SHE BECAME A LITTLE UNPREDICTABLE.

WHEN I MET HER, I WAS NEVER SURE WHEN I SAW HER WHETHER SHE WOULD TREAT ME LIKE ONE OF HER BEST FRIENDS OR THE PARKING LOT ATTENDANT.

SO WHEN SHE CAME THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF CONDE NAST , SHE MADE AN ATTEMPT TO TAKE OVER HALF MY STAFF AND PUT THEM UNDER HER AND THAT PUT A CHILL ON THE RELATIONSHIP AND A CHILL ON MY TIME AT CONDE NAST, IT WAS COMING UP TO MY 25th YEAR AT VANITY FAIR AND I THOUGHT IT IS TIME TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.