- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication.

Ellergroup.com.

Diane Land and Steve Adler, and Karey and Chris Oddo.

- I'm Evan Smith.

She's a James Beard Award-winning food writer for the New York Times, the Guardian, Bon Appetit and more.

Her new cookbook, her sixth, is "Linger: Salads, Sweets, and Stories to Savor."

She's Hetty Lui McKinnon.

This is "Overheard."

(audience applauding) A platform and a voice is a powerful thing.

You really turned the conversation around about what leadership should be about.

Are we blowing this?

Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing by giving into the attention junkie?

As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves to the same standards that we hold everybody else.

This is "Overheard."

(upbeat music) (audience applauding) Hetty Lui McKinnon, welcome.

Thanks so much for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

It's my first time in, it's my first time in Austin.

- Is that right?

Well, we welcome you back anytime you want.

(Hetty laughing) And congratulations on this amazing cookbook.

So this is the sixth, as I said.

- [Hetty] Yes.

- I think the order goes "Neighborhood," "Family," "Community," "To Asia with Love," "Tenderheart," and now "Linger."

- Almost correct.

- Almost correct.

Did I get the orders wrong?

- Well, "Community" is first.

- [Evan] "Community" is first.

- But it has, it has, it was re-released.

- [Evan] Oh, I see.

- In 2019.

- [Evan] Right.

- So often it's listed.

- So technically "Community" is first.

- It is, yeah.

- The point of this though, is that that's in the space of about nine years.

- Yeah.

- [Evan] It's, you know, 10 years, it's.

- Yeah, 10 years.

- It's a lot of cookbooks in a space of 10 years.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I could do more.

- You could do, well, yeah, and I suspect you will do more.

The principles behind this one seem to me to be first and foremost, as you write yourself, the culinary life begins with salads.

- [Hetty] It does.

- Right, explain what you mean by that.

Because this is obviously not exclusively a cookbook of salad recipes, lot of salad recipes in here, but that's really the narrative through line.

- Yeah, I mean, "Community" was my first book.

- Yeah.

- And that book was about my salad business.

I actually had a salad business.

- Yes.

- In Sydney, where I rode around on a bike twice a week and delivered salads to locals.

- [Evan] Right.

- And so before that I was not in food.

You know, I always had this other career in PR.

I'd just had three young children, three children under three and a half.

And I just decided I don't wanna go back to an office.

I wanna do something that keeps me rooted in my community.

- Yeah.

- And I just taught myself how to cook.

And I wanted, I'd been a vegetarian for many years already at that time.

- Right.

- And I decided I wanted to feed my community.

So, and that, what I fed them was salad in a box.

And so this book was really going back to those roots of sharing salads with friends.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- At the time they were new friends, but that spirit of community has run through all my books.

Like all those titles you've just read out, there's that spirit of sharing, of learning from one another, of coexistence.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- And I think today more than ever, that message is really important.

- Yeah, well, in fact, that's the second principle, right?

This is a book about sharing.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- It's a book about community.

"Linger," actually, before it was a cookbook was a project.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- Where you would gather people together, right?

- Yeah, at a table, not unlike this.

- At a table, yeah.

- In my home, and I had every month for a 12 month period, I had friends come over, and I just served them salads.

And they, so chronologically in this book is the salad gatherings that I had.

- Right.

- And through that, what I really wanted to do was, the year was 2023.

I was really feeling already like there's this disconnection.

I wanna re-tap into what I was missing in food.

Like sometimes like just sitting at home developing recipes is kind of lonely.

And it's a very, and writing a book is a very lonely process.

- [Evan] Right.

- Until you get it out into the world, and then you fear, oh, are people gonna like it?

But it's a, there's a wave of emotions.

But in this, writing this book, I knew immediately what people thought of the food.

I knew the favorites, and there was just this incredible bond.

So over every recipe in here, I can remember a moment I shared with a friend.

- [Evan] Yep.

- In my home.

And so this book is more than just recipes.

It's an entire year of my life.

- Well, it's stories, again, as it says it is stories.

- Yeah.

- And it's as much your story as it is the stories of the things that we're gonna cook as a result of your recipes.

- Absolutely, yeah.

- Yeah.

The other through line here as I think about the principles behind this, and again, it goes back through all six cookbooks is vegetables.

- [Hetty] Yes.

- Right?

You have been a vegetarian since age 19?

- [Hetty] Yes.

- Is that right?

- [Hetty] That's correct.

I've been a vegetarian since age 17.

- Okay, close.

- I thought we should fist bump over that actually.

- Yes!

- Right, there you go, yes.

I understand the frame of mind that you're in when you think about this stuff.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- And I think you're extraordinarily creative in the way you approach this stuff.

I've been saying for years, the only problem with being a vegetarian is the food, right?

- Really?

Oh.

- But actually, you know.

- We need to talk more about that.

- We should talk about that, right, right, right.

But you have really approached the task of putting these recipes before us in a way that makes you forget almost.

- Mm, yeah.

- That you're a vegetarian.

- Yeah.

- [Evan] Right?

- It doesn't say vegetarian on that cover.

- It doesn't, yeah.

- No, I don't, there's not, I haven't had a book that has vegetarian on the cover.

- Right.

- I kind of fell into food.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- So I didn't understand all these things about categorizing books and where they go on the shelf, but.

- [Evan] Right.

- I always, I remember with my first book, I said to my publisher, I don't want it to be in the vegetarian section.

- Right.

- Because I want this book to be, these recipes to be mainstream.

- Well, the vast majority of people if you do that will turn away.

- Yeah.

- Right?

They'll be friendly, but they'll turn away in a friendly way.

- Yeah 'cause I think the term vegetarian or vegan or plant-based, often those terms mean something that you're missing out on.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- It's what's less.

It's what's not there.

Whereas I feel like my recipes are all about more, more flavor, more texture, more intriguing flavor combinations.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- It's more, and I think that's what vegetarian food should be.

It's more, not less.

- Yeah, the obligation is on us to figure out how we can make the experience as good as it might be for somebody who isn't a vegetarian.

- Absolutely, absolutely.

- Right.

- And I also think as a vegetarian recipe developer, it does actually make my recipes different.

And this is something that.

- Say more, say more about that.

- So for me, eating a vegetarian meal isn't a gimmick.

It's not like Mondays.

It's not just something I'm gonna do every now and then.

I'm not flexitarian.

- Right.

- This is me every single day, every meal of every single day.

So they have to count.

Those meals have to count.

- Yeah.

- I want flavor.

I'm Cantonese.

We love flavor.

I want, you know, bold flavors.

I want texture.

So when I'm thinking about developing a recipe, I'm thinking about all those things.

Because I think that when you're not vegetarian, you don't quite understand all the requirements of having a meal that's really satisfying.

So often if you make, so for example, if you have a pureed soup, and that's all you're eating.

- Yep.

- It's one note, one texture the whole time.

And you're getting bored.

- It's not a meal.

- It's not a meal.

- Yeah.

- So I want, so when I'm putting.

It doesn't matter what that recipe is.

It could be a salad, it could be a soup, it could be a stew.

I want lots of different textures.

Lots, in every bite, there's a lot going on.

You're thinking about, what am I putting in my mouth?

Do I like this?

What elements do I like?

So I think all those things all come together because I'm vegetarian.

I think it's a unique point of view.

And they're not, there are not that many vegetarian recipe developers out there.

They might develop vegetarian food.

- [Evan] Right.

- But they're not actually vegetarian.

This is not their life, so.

- Yeah, if I think about people whose vegetarian recipes I've relied on over the years, I have to go all the way back to Mollie Katzen, you know, like in the early days, right?

- Oh yeah, I know Mollie Katzen.

I know, I know the book.

- Right.

- It was one of the first books that people recommended.

- That's a long time ago though.

- Yes.

Was that from the 70s or 80s?

- I mean, it's a long time ago.

It is a long time.

So I wanted to ask you three things on this question of vegetarianism as a through line before we get into some of the rules of the road in the book.

The first is, I don't like tofu, generally speaking.

- Okay.

- Not to say I don't eat it.

- We can fix that.

- You like tofu.

- I love tofu.

- You love tofu.

There were so many great recipes with tofu.

It's kind of actually made me think, eh, maybe I need to change my thinking on this.

- Yeah, what don't you like about tofu?

- How long do you have?

(audience laughing) I mean, you know, it's a long complicated relationship with tofu.

- Right, okay.

- But you.

- All right.

- So you say tofu, yes.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- You vote yes on tofu.

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- I mean, I also grew up eating tofu.

- [Evan] Right.

- So I've never had bad tofu.

- [Evan] Right.

- You know.

- And but also your tofu is not just anybody's tofu.

- I'd like to think so.

- I'd like to think so.

Well, all right.

Meat substitutes, you know, Beyond Burger, Impossible Burger, Fakin Bacon, all that kind of stuff.

Are you for it or against it?

- Personally, I don't like it.

- You don't like it.

- Well, I don't really want my food to taste like meat.

- Yeah.

- And I don't want it to have the texture of meat.

And so often those products are a little too close to meat for me.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- They taste.

- If they're successful at it, that's the problem.

- That's right.

- Right, okay.

You ever miss meat?

- Never.

- Never, not one time.

You've not walked past bacon cooking and thought to yourself I almost could have that.

- [Hetty] I appreciate.

- Because I have sometimes.

(Hetty laughing) Yeah.

- I appreciate the smell of it.

- Yeah.

- And I do think that there is such richness and depth in meat when it's cooking, but I don't wanna eat it.

- Yeah.

- And there was one point in my life where I said to myself, when I was pregnant with my kids, I said, if I want meat when I'm pregnant, I'm gonna allow myself to do it.

And I never wanted it.

- It never actually happened.

- Never, never wanted it.

- Amazing, okay.

So I love this book for a bunch of reasons.

I think the recipes are amazing, but I'm always looking for things to improve the way that I cook.

- Yeah.

- Or think about food.

And you have these interesting rules and tools here at the very beginning.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- And I wanna just run through a couple things and ask you to talk about them.

- [Hetty] Sure, sure.

- Okay, salads don't always have to have leaves.

- They do not.

- I love that.

- This is, I might die on this rule that I'm trying to teach people.

- Let's go.

- Right, so like when I, my type of salads are not just leaf salads.

And often when you mention this, I remember one of the first questions I was asked when I did like this small TV slot when I first arrived in New York was the interviewer said to me, how could this be a salad?

There's no lettuce or tomato.

- Right.

- Or cucumbers.

And so that's like, that's my lesson.

That's my big lesson, you know, in a lot of my work is salads can be many things.

At its most basic, it's just a meal that is served at room temperature.

- Right.

- It has many elements.

- Right.

- Not complicated elements, just lots of like elements and a story that brings it to together.

But yeah, it doesn't have to have leaves.

I mean, leaves are good.

I don't have anything against salads with leaves.

- You're not anti leaf, no.

- I'm not anti leaf.

- Yes.

- And I'll often have a leaf in there to brighten the whole dish up.

- But not a requirement.

- It's not a requirement.

- Okay.

- And it's not the only thing that makes something a salad.

- Yeah, well, you jumped ahead to something I wanna ask you about that I noticed, and that was eat salads at room temperature.

- [Hetty] Yes.

- Who doesn't love a warm lentil salad?

- You can do that, but the lesson I think I'm really trying to get at is a lot of people eat salad from the fridge.

- It's less about them being warm than about them not being cold.

- Right, so when, you know, when a dish is cold.

- Yeah.

- You can't taste the flavors.

You know, the temperature has muted the, so some, well, if you've seasoned something really well, and they put it in the fridge, the next day, it's gonna taste bland.

And that's because the temperature has muted the seasoning.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- So eat salads at the right temperature.

- Can't argue with that, okay.

Anything can be a salad.

You mentioned specifically, I remember this from getting "To Asia with Love," a dumpling salad.

- [Hetty] Right, yes.

- Was one of the recipes in that cookbook.

And you said that you got a little pushback from some people.

- I did initially.

- On whether that's really a salad.

- It is, I mean, that one in particular is with leaves, believe it or not.

But I do think, that's the one recipe that I think that, you know, if anyone says that they invented it, I will argue with you.

- Yeah.

- Because that salad.

- You did it.

- That salad to me is, it encapsulates who I am as a person.

- [Evan] Yeah, yeah.

- You know, like I'm a Chinese salad maker, and there's not many of those in the world.

I can guarantee you.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- Because Chinese people don't really eat salad.

- It's not really in our culture.

I grew up, I loved jellyfish salad growing up when I still ate meat.

But, you know, Chinese people don't really like to eat food, cold food.

It's not good for the body.

So for me to be a person that is of Chinese heritage, but makes salad for a living, that dumpling tomato, that dumpling salad really encapsulates who I am.

Dumplings in a salad, that's kind of me.

- Kind of amazing.

- So that's my salad.

- Right.

- But anything can be a salad.

I mean, in this book, I really, really push the form.

- Yeah.

- Of what a salad is.

- Right.

- There's a Mapo tofu salad.

- There is.

- There's a Dandan noodle salad.

I mean, these are all, and what I'm trying to do there in particular is these are dishes that are familiar to people.

These are flavors that people might have tasted before.

They're words and names that people might know, but then you've just twisted it around and given them a new ID for that dish.

- Yeah.

- And that's what I'm always trying to do in my recipes, is make people feel comfortable, but then make them think.

- So the last one in the rule section that I just wanna bring out 'cause I thought it was so interesting, and I like to follow instructions.

- Mm hm, okay.

- And so I'm like, well, where are the instructions in this cookbook?

A salad can be a formula.

- Yes.

- This is what you said.

"This concept is called the anatomy of a salad.

"It follows loose guideline of how I approach salad making.

"Vegetable plus hearty legume or grain "plus leaves, leaves, plus herbs, "plus textural elements such as nuts, seeds, "croutons, et cetera, "plus dressing, plus final seasoning."

Like I thought, okay.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- That's, I can do that.

- You can do that.

And I think that that formula gives home cooks the agency to come home from work or come home.

- Yeah.

- And then think, ooh, what do I have in the fridge?

What do I have in my pantry?

- Right.

- And then pull a dish together that might not be a recipe from this book or any book.

- Yeah.

- But it just gives you the power and the freedom to just explore.

- And you can subtract from that.

Like if you have some aversion to nuts, you know?

- Yeah, absolutely.

- But as just a general formula for a good salad, I thought that's pretty good.

You also have, in here, I did rules.

Now let's do tools.

You have the essentials of salad making.

You have essential knives, you have salad spoons, you have a shallow bowl.

But to me, the real MVP in this is the personal sized blender.

- Oh yes.

- The little blender.

I remember Ina Garten years ago with a little tiny blender.

And I was like, what is that?

- Yeah, and it does.

- Got one, and it's, it's just, you can't, it's invaluable.

- It's game changing.

- It's game changing.

- Really, and inexpensive.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- Small, my mine's a Nutribullet.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- I think it costs $40.

- [Evan] Right.

- Had it for years.

And don't try to use one of those big blender or food processors to make your dressings 'cause it's not gonna work.

- Yeah, it does the work for you.

- Yeah.

- Really does.

- And it saves you time and everything else.

So you mentioned that you're Cantonese.

You were actually born in Australia, - In Sydney, yes.

- In Sydney.

Your parents are both immigrants from China to Sydney.

- Yep.

- Your dad worked in a kind of vegetables.

- Yes.

- Right, explain.

But in fact, specifically, was it banana?

- Bananas, yeah.

- Fruits and vegetables.

Bananas specifically.

- Yeah.

- Talk about, 'cause he ends up being such an important character in this story.

- Yeah, I think the, you know, when I wrote "Tenderheart," it wasn't meant to be about him.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- It was meant to be about just, you know, my fun approach to vegetables.

- [Evan] Right.

- And then as I was working on the book, I started thinking about my dad and the role that he had on my life.

- [Evan] Right.

- And I lost my dad when I was 15.

- 15, right, yeah.

- So a long time ago.

And I never knew him as an adult.

You know, I don't know, I think about my dad in the prism of being a child.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- So I'd never really explored the impact or whether there was an impact at all that he had on my life.

- Right.

- Or any sort of legacy.

But when I started cooking and writing that book and thinking deeply about vegetables and how much I adore them, and how much they've always been a part of my life, he was just so, he was the main character of that story.

- Right.

- And so that book is really just about him and our relationship and about how he played such a huge role in me loving vegetables.

- Yeah.

- You mentioned he worked in the wholesale banana trade in Sydney.

And our home growing up was just full of vegetables, boxes, crates, you know, like we had really access to the best and fairest of all fresh produce growing up.

- Yeah, it had to influence you to some degree growing up around it.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- It's the way, you know, the old stories about Tiger Woods' father putting a golf club in his crib.

Like you were around the stuff at a critical part of your life, as you developed as a person, you developed thinking about who you were and what you would be.

And I have to believe that it had an influence on you.

- Yeah, yeah, and like eating fresh food, whether that be vegetables or fruit is still something that like, I am so, I'm craving it all the time.

- Right.

- But it just makes me feel at home, and so yeah.

that played a huge part of my life.

And this, I think commitment to making vegetables the center of my life, and teaching other people how to love vegetables as much as I do.

- Yeah.

- That's something that, you know, it's really played a huge role in my books and why I write my books and why I develop the recipes the way I do.

- Yeah.

When did you think about cooking?

Do you remember when it was that you thought I'm interested in cooking, or, hey, I can cook.

- I was always around food.

- Yeah.

- Like my mom is an extraordinary cook.

- Yeah.

- And probably the biggest influence on me.

She's still around, we still talk about food.

- Yeah.

- So food was always a huge part of my life, but I didn't want a career in it.

You know, that was just, it literally happened by accident.

- [Evan] Right.

- But I always knew how to cook, but I didn't have the time.

- [Evan] Right.

- To cook as much as, as after I had my children, because then there was a reason to cook other than just for myself and my husband.

- So the story goes Sydney, London, back to Sydney.

- Yeah.

- And it was back to Sydney, 2011 that you began doing this salad delivery.

It was called the-- - Arthur Street Kitchen.

- Arthur Street Kitchen.

- Yep.

- And so you would make salads, you would take them out on your bike.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- And you would drive them around and.

- Yep.

- You know, get to meet people, but these were your customers and it was, that was really the catalyst for all of this.

- It was, I mean, before that it was just, hey, this is a fun idea.

- [Evan] Right.

- I'm gonna do something different.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- But when I started meeting people, hearing their stories, connecting with them.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- That exchange of a salad box became to mean so much more to me.

And it was, I saw how powerful food was to connect people.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- You know, like just these salads, I was, these people from all different walks of life that I would've never met.

They are now some lifelong friends.

- Yep.

- I write about them.

I still talk to them often.

And it's so intoxicating.

It's, like to come together over common ground like that, which is, for us, food, it's something you wanna do more and more and more.

And I just do it on a different scale now.

- Right, you said that your, you had three kids, very young children at the time that you started doing this.

- I did.

- Right, so that's 2011.

So your kids are now teenagers, walking up to the edge of adulthood, right?

I mean, they're actual human beings.

Do they eat this food?

- Yes.

- Do they like it?

Do they question it?

Do they like why can't I have a steak?

- My two boys, I've got a girl and then two boys.

- [Evan] Yep.

- The two boys love meat.

They love meat.

They don't, I don't really cook meat at home.

Actually, funny story.

I made, I haven't cooked meat at home for probably eight, nine years.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- Around the time I wrote my book "Family," I decided I don't want to do this anymore.

They're just gonna eat what I eat.

Then my mom is getting on in her life.

And the other day, I suddenly thought, they don't know this one dish, which is this basically steamed pork dish that my mom made for us maybe twice a week.

- Oh, wow.

- And I've never, and I haven't cooked meat for a long time.

And I called her, and I asked her, how do you make this, that dish?

And I went out and I made the steamed pork dish.

- You did.

- I didn't eat it, of course.

- Right.

- But the kids were like, ah, this is really good, you know.

- Did you need people in hazmat suits to clean your kitchen after that was over?

- It did feel a bit gross.

I'm gonna be honest.

- I believe that's probably right.

- I probably won't do it again for a long time, but, - Right, I like that you're not judge-y about the kids wanting to eat meat.

I think that's good.

- No, they can, I mean, they need to make their own decisions in life.

They eat plenty of vegetables.

They eat, we eat vegetarian most of the time.

- [Evan] Right.

- But they're also, as you said, they're actual humans that go out into the world and go and buy themselves a, you know, Philly cheese steak sandwich, - Hamburger.

- Hamburger, you know, tacos.

They can do.

- And again, like that's good.

- Yeah.

- It's all good.

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- So we have a couple minutes left.

I wanna ask away from the cookbook about the world we're living in today.

There are more regular people, civilians who are down in the weeds of food culture today than at any point in my life, right?

- [Hetty] Yeah.

- There are all these television networks and all these shows, all these chefs, all these competitions, all these food influencers on social media.

And like the average person today probably knows more about this stuff or thinks he or she knows more about this stuff than at any point.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing for society that so many more people are thinking about this stuff at that level?

- I think it's too much.

- You think it's too much?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I think it's too much.

Because I think a lot of what you see on social media isn't really people cooking food.

It looks like they are, but they're just throwing things together.

And it's not a tested recipe.

I mean, I'm a purist.

- [Evan] Right.

- I mean, I love developing recipes.

The art form of writing a recipe is very important to me.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- And so I still think that there's too much.

I love cookbooks.

Maybe we go, we leave social media behind and just go back to books.

- Are you comfortable with things like "The Great British Baking Show," the sort of phenomenon television shows like that?

- Um, that's like the only cooking show I actually watch.

I don't watch a lot of cooking shows on TV.

- [Evan] You don't.

- Well, I don't wanna do that in my spare time.

- I mean, honestly, you deserve, you deserve a life away from this stuff, right?

Like, you can do something else.

- And that show is baking.

And I'm not a, I'm not hugely into baking.

So it's quite humorous to see that in the baking world.

- Yeah, well, what will you do after this?

So obviously this is not the last cookbook.

You said you've got, you could write cookbooks probably from now until the end of time and not go through.

What can we expect from you after this?

- I'm in the early, I haven't spoken to my publisher about it, actually.

- Well just come on.

The publisher probably doesn't watch this show, so it'll just be between the two of us.

- I'm in the, I'm in the early stages of thinking about a next book that's kind of a gift to my children.

Should I leave it at that?

- No, say more.

(Hetty laughing) - Well, my oldest is.

- Is it called "Pork for Now, But Don't Get Used to It?"

- "Pork Sometimes."

- [Evan] Right, yeah.

- It's "Pork is a Sometimes Food."

- [Evan] Right.

- Yeah.

No, my oldest daughter is in college, and she's starting to cook for herself.

- Great.

- And it's just been interesting to see her approach to cooking, actually.

She uses, she does use the New York Times.

She often will, I don't know if she has the New York Times app, but she'll often call me and say, can you send me the gift link to this and this and this?

And then often she'll ask for certain recipes of mine that I've developed at home.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- She doesn't live at home anymore.

Obviously she's off.

But when she was home for the summer, she would say, oh, I like that Brussels sprouts Udon thing that you did.

So she'll ask me, and I started talking to her about like what attracts you to recipes?

- Yeah.

- Like that's really interesting.

- What'd she say?

- And it was, she said something to me very specific.

She said, I don't mind spending hours on a recipe as long as it doesn't have too many ingredients.

- Oh.

- Because she lives in, she lives with flatmates.

She's on a budget.

- [Evan] Right.

- So it was not about, it's not a time thing.

It's a having to go out and spend a lot of money on ingredients thing.

- [Evan] Right.

- So that got me thinking about doing something more pantry related.

- You know, an interesting cookbook might be four ingredients or less, and yet the dish is awesome.

- Yes.

- Right?

- Yes, and I love working with restrictions, actually.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- It makes you more creative and "Tenderheart" very much was like that.

It would be like, it was developed like this, Evan.

I would say, I'm gonna develop a recipe for my cookbook today.

I have sweet potato.

What am I gonna do with the sweet potato?

- Oh wow.

- So it would be digging into the pantry.

I mean, I have a good pantry though.

- I mean, please, you have to have a good pantry, right?

- So it's not everyone's pantry.

- [Evan] Right.

- But I have all these, you know, wonderful condiments that I would just go, I can take a vegetable and I can.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- Add all this stuff and look how amazing it is.

- I love that.

Well, I can't wait to see what it is.

And it's been so fun to talk to you.

I'm excited.

I'm gonna go home and cook like crazy outta this cookbook, so.

- Potato chip salad for you tonight.

- Potato chip salad for me.

A double helping.

All right.

Hetty Lui McKinnon, thank you so much.

Congratulations on your success.

- Oh, thank you.

- Good to see you.

- Thank you.

- Thanks for having me.

- Give her a big hand.

Thank you.

(audience applauding) We'd love to have you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at OverheardWithEvanSmith.org to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests and an archive of past episodes.

(upbeat music) - I love like taking something that already exists in the world and kind of transforming it into something that speaks to me or to the moment.

So yeah, hence the potato chip salad.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication.

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