>> NOW TO A TROUBLING FEATURE OF U. S. HISTORY.

BLACKFACE, A DEHUMANIZING CARICATURE OF BLACK AMERICANS, BECAME A STAPLE OF ENTERTAINMENT IN THE 19th CENTURY.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUED THE IMPACTS OF THIS DEROGATORY PRACTICE ARE STILL BEING FELT.

IN HER NEW BOOK, RAILING BARNES TRACES THE TOXIC ROOTS OF BLACKFACE AND HOW IT SEEPED INTO SO MANY PARTS OF AMERICAN LIFE.

SHE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER 20 YEARS OF RESEARCH AND WHY THIS CONVERSATION IS STILL SO IMPORTANT TODAY.

JUST A NOTE, PARTS OF THIS INTERVIEW MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME VIEWERS.

>> PROFESSOR RAILING BARNES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> HOW ON EARTH DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT OF BLACKFACE?

>> ABSOLUTELY, SO FOR ME IT HAD ALWAYS BEEN THERE.

I GREW UP IN ANAHEIM, CALIFORNIA, RIGHT IN THE SHADOW OF DISNEYLAND.

VERY MUCH A UNION OF A WORKING- CLASS FAMILY, AND DURING THE 1992 L. A. UPRISINGS, WHICH SPILLED INTO LONG BEACH AND ORANGE COUNTY, AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GREAT IDEA TO BRING THE SCHOOLCHILDREN IN TO DISNEYLAND AS A SAFE PLACE AND WE WERE INCREDIBLY RACIALLY DIVERSE AS A CLASS.

AND ONE OF MY SORT OF VIVID MEMORIES OF RACIAL CONSCIOUSNESS WAS BEING ON MAIN STREET USA WITH MY BEST FRIEND, WHO IS BLACK, I WAS A LITTLE WHITE GIRL, AND WE WERE WATCHING THE CLASSIC STEAMBOAT WILLIE, AND EARLY MICKEY MOUSE CARTOONS, AND IN ONE OF THEM MICKEY MOUSE DECIDES HE WANTS TO PUT ON A MINSTREL SHOW.

HE WANTS TO DO A REINTERPRETATION OF HARRIET BEECHER STOWE'S UNCLE TOM'S CABIN WITH SINGING AND DANCING TO DIXIE AND HE TAKES A STICK OF DYNAMITE, PUTS IT IN HIS MOUTH AND BLOWS HIS FACE UP INTO BLACKFACE, AND WE WERE JUST STANDING THERE AS THE CITY WAS SORT OF IMPLODING, AND I JUST REMEMBER THINKING, OH, RACE IS FAKE, THIS IS MADE UP, AND FROM THAT MOMENT ON I COULDN'T UNSEAT RACIAL PRESENTATION AND BLACKFACE THEN ONCE I GOT TO COLLEGE I WAS IN HISTORY CLASS.

IT WAS ABOUT AMERICAN SLAVERY AND CULTURE AND THERE'S 30 BOOKS ABOUT BLACKFACE THAT HAD BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT ANTEBELLUM AMERICA, SO BEFORE THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR, AND THEY ALL ARGUED THAT EITHER AT THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR OR BY DETERRENT OF 1900, BLACKFACE DECLINED, THAT IT WAS SUBSUMED INTO THINGS LIKE TELEVISION AND RADIO.

BUT AS A STANDALONE THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE, DISAPPEARED, AND I THOUGHT, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I SEE IT ALL THE TIME AT DISNEYLAND AND KNOTTS BERRY FARM AND IN MY DAILY LIFE.

THAT REALLY STARTED THE IMPETUS TO DOCUMENT HOW, IN FACT, IT NOT ONLY EXISTED IN THE 20th CENTURY, BUT IN THE 19th CENTURY, 20,000 SHOWS, IN THE 20th CENTURY IT'S 1 MILLION SHOWS A YEAR, AND SO THAT REALLY -- >> THAT'S CRAZY.

THERE ARE JUST SO MANY THINGS, JUST THAT RIGHT THERE.

THE FACT THAT THE NUMBER OF SHOWS ACTUALLY INCREASED, WHAT EXPLAINS THAT?

>> PART OF WHY I WAS CONFUSED WAS THE JIM CROW ERA, WHICH STARTS IN 1896, FORMALLY, WHICH IS AN ERA OF RACIAL TERROR AND LEGISLATIVE WHITE SUPREMACY IN THE UNITED STATES.

JIM CROW IS THE NAME OF THE MOST FAMOUS BLACKFACE CHARACTER, WHO COMES ON THE STAGE IN THE UNITED STATES IN 1928, GLOBALIZE IS AN AMERICAN CULTURE BY 1840.

SO I THOUGHT, HOW COULD IT AND IF THE ENTIRE REGIME IN AMERICAN SOCIETY IS ACTUALLY NAMED AFTER THIS CHARACTER?

ONE THING I DISCOVERED THAT WAS REALLY CRITICAL, NUMB TWO THINGS, IS IN THE 19th CENTURY WE HAD PROFESSIONAL BLACKFACE CELEBRITIES AND THESE ARE TRULY GLOBAL CELEBRITIES.

SO YOU WOULD GO TO BROADWAY OR THE BOWERY AND YOU WOULD SEE THEM PERFORM, WHETHER IT WAS STANDUP COMEDY, TAP DANCING, BANJO, FIDDLING, BUT DUE TO THE INCREDIBLE DEMAND AND ALSO THE EXPLOSION OF MULTIMEDIA TECHNOLOGY, WHETHER IT WAS THE INVENTION OF LITHOGRAPHY, PHOTOGRAPHY, SHEET MUSIC, IT STARTS TO DEMOCRATIZE POOR, AMATEUR, AND HOME USE AND BASICALLY PUBLISHING HOW TO BLACKFACE GUIDES.

AND WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THAT IS ALL OF A SUDDEN THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SHIFTS FROM BEING PASSIVE CONSUMERS WHERE THEY MIGHT SEE A SHOW ONCE A YEAR TO ALL OF A SUDDEN BEING ASKED IN PLACES LIKE SCHOOLS OR CHURCHES TO LEARN HOW TO PHYSICALLY EMBODY THEIR OWN REPRESENTATION OF BLACK STEREOTYPES.

AND THAT REALLY CHANGES IN RELATIONSHIP TO CARICATURE, AND THE OTHER SORT OF SECOND MAJOR THING THAT HAPPENS IS DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION, PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT FEDERALIZE HIS BLACKFACE, AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THROUGH THE WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS A BRILLIANT PROGRAM THAT PUT ALIENS OF AMERICANS BACK TO WORK, INCLUDING WRITERS, ARTISTS, COMPOSERS, SET DESIGNERS, HE FELT THAT BLACKFACE WAS THE ONE TRUE CULTURAL FORM OF AMERICAN ENTERTAINMENT THAT HE WORRIED WAS BEING LOST DURING THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE.

AND SO HE HAD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GO OUT AND DO WHAT I CALL A BLACKFACE BAILOUT, WHERE HE BOUGHT OUT ALL OF THE PUBLISHING HOUSES, THEM UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND THAT FEDERALIZE IS IT.

IT PUTS ALL OF THIS MATERIAL INTO PUBLIC DOMAIN AND THAT'S HOW IT ENDS UP IN OUR SCHOOLBOOKS.

>> HE EVEN WROTE ONE, I LEARNED FROM YOU.

HE EVEN WROTE A BLACKFACE.

JUST --I FEEL LIKE MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE.

>> WELCOME .

>> HOW DID THE BLACKFACE THING ALL START?

>> SO IN 1828 A STRUGGLING ACTOR AT THE TIME CALLED TBD RICE WAS IN THE OHIO RIVER VALLEY, PRIMARILY IN KENTUCKY, AND HE WAS BACKSTAGE, AND HE ENCOUNTERED AN ENSLAVED MAN WHO WAS DISABLED, AND HE HEARD HIM SINGING A SONG, AND HE WAS WORKING WITH HORSES, TAKING CARE OF THE ACTORS HORSES, AND HE ALSO WAS DISABLED AND SO WHEN HE WOULD SING THE SONG HE WOULD SPIN AND IT WAS DESCRIBED THAT HE WOULD DRAG HIS BACK LEG.

THERE ARE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENSLAVED AMERICANS WHO ARE ENSLAVED AND THEIR JOB IS NOT WORKING IN THE COTTON FIELDS.

IT MIGHT BE THAT THEY ARE ENSLAVED FIDDLER OR ENSLAVED SINGER AND SO A LOT OF WORLD- CLASS MUSICIAN'S IN NEW YORK , LONDON, WOULD GO DOWN TO PLACES LIKE NEW ORLEANS, AND GO DOWN TO CHARLESTON, WHERE THEY COULD WATCH THE SLAVE MARKETS, AND THEY'RE BASICALLY WATCHING PERFORMANCES THAT ARE A FORM OF TORTURE.

LIKE DANCE FASTER, JUMP HIGHER, IN THE AUCTION BLOCK, AS PEOPLE ARE BEING EVALUATED FOR THEIR PHYSICALITY, FOR POTENTIAL PURCHASE.

BUT WHAT THESE COMPOSERS AND PERFORMERS DO IS THEY WRITE DOWN WHAT THEY'RE HEARING, WHICH ARE PERMANENT THE BLACK FULL MUSIC, AND ALSO TRYING TO LEARN THE CHOREOGRAPHY, BRINGING IT BACK TO BROADWAY, MASS COMMERCIALIZING IT AND MAKING ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY.

AND SO THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WITH TD RICE WHEN HE SEES THIS PERFORMER.

HE BRINGS IT TO THE BOWERY, TO THE FIVE POINTS, IN THE NORTH, SO THIS IS CRITICAL TO THE STORY.

BLACKFACE IS A NORTHERN URBAN INVENTION.

IT IS NOT CREATED IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH AND MOST PERFORMANCES IN THE 19th CENTURY WAS IN CALLED CONCERT SALOONS.

SO THESE ARE ALL MALE SPACES.

WOMEN COULD ONLY BE THERE IF THEY WERE SEX WORKERS OR THEY WERE SERVING ALCOHOL.

AND HE PERFORMS THIS SONG CALLED JUMPING JIM CROW, WHERE HE NOT ONLY PERFORMS IN BLACKFACE BUT ALSO REINTERPRETS STABILITY.

SO AS HE SPINS ABOUT IN THE CHOREOGRAPHY HE DRAGS HIS BACK LEG AND IT WAS SUCH A HIT, THE AUDIENCE MADE HIM PERFORMANCE OVER 50 TIMES IN A ROW, AND THERE'S A REALLY FAMOUS PAINTING WHERE THE AUDIENCE RUSHES THE STAGE AND ARE TRYING TO LEARN THE DANCE RIGHT BESIDE.

WITHIN 10 YEARS WE GET THE RISE OF WHAT'S CALLED MINSTREL SHOWS, SO THESE ARE ALL NIGHT BLACKFACE EVENTS THAT HAVE NORMALLY THREE PARTS TO THEM SO BASICALLY THE BIRTH OF AMERICAN VARIETY SHOWS.

SO WE SEE THAT FORM CONTINUE ALL THE WAY THROUGH SNL AND THEY HAVE MINSTREL TROOPS, WHICH ARE PRETTY MUCH LIKE ROCK BANDS, IN THAT THEY HAVE THEIR SPECIALIZATIONS, THEY HAVE DIFFERENT FAN BASES AND THEY TORE NOT JUST AMERICA BUT THE ENTIRE GLOBE.

AND SO THEIR SONGS, WRITTEN BY COMPOSERS LIKE STEPHEN FOSTER, NOT ONLY BECOME CRITICAL TO AMERICAN CULTURAL DNA, IN THE 1840S, '50S AND 1860S, BUT PRETTY MUCH THE ENGLISH SPEAKING WORLD, WHERE THE RACIAL HUMOR TRANSLATES TO WHAT WILL BECOME SOUTH AFRICA, AUSTRALIA, THROUGHOUT THE BRITISH EMPIRE, AND MY BOOK ALSO TALKS ABOUT HOW THIS TAKES HOLD IN THE PACIFIC BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES BRINGS IT TO JAPAN AND THE JAPANESE EMPIRE.

>> EVERYTHING IN THIS BOOK IS A REVELATION TO ME BUT ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS IS THE FACT THAT LACTASE WAS PERFORMED IN THE JAPANESE INTERNMENT CAMPS, WHERE JAPANESE AMERICANS, JAPANESE IMMIGRANTS WERE HERDED INTO DURING WORLD WAR II AND THEY BECAME KIND OF A FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT IN THESE CAMPS.

WHY WAS IT SO POPULAR IN YOUR VIEW?

>> WELL THERE'S A LOT GOING ON.

THE MOST DISTURBING TRUTH IS THEY'RE FUNNY.

THEY'RE VERY WITTY.

NORMALLY THEY ARE DERIVED IN WORDPLAY, AND WHAT I ALWAYS SAY TO MYSELF IS THIS WOULD BE FUNNY IF YOU REMOVED THE BLACKFACE.

LIKE THE ACTUAL TIME, THE ACTUAL WORDS, WHEN YOU ADD THE BLACKFACE IT'S ANOTHER LAYER, BECAUSE THEN , PART OF THE COMPLEX JOKE THAT'S BEING MADE IS THAT UNFORTUNATELY, THAT BLACK AMERICANS ARE SO INFERIOR AND SO FAILING AT ASSIMILATION, WHETHER THEY ARE TRYING TO ENGAGE WITH FORMS OF TECHNOLOGY LIKE A TELEGRAPH, OR A RADIO, OR IF THEY'RE TRYING TO VOTE IN A POLITICAL PRIMARY, THAT NO MATTER WHAT THEY'RE DOING, THEY'RE DOING IT SLIGHTLY WRONG.

ONCE THESE CHARACTERS EMBEDDED IN AMERICAN CULTURE, WE SORT OF HAD THESE STOCK CARICATURES THAT EVERY AMERICAN IDENTIFIES WITH, KNOWS AND CAN EXPECT THE TROPES THAT THEY'RE GOING TO ENGAGE IN.

I SORT OF DESCRIBE MINSTREL SHOWS LIKE A REALLY STRANGE HYBRID OF THE DAILY SHOW, IN THAT THEY ARE CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT AMERICAN POLITICAL NEWS AND MAKING IT A JOKE, BUT THEN AT THE SAME TIME ARE MIXED WITH SOMETHING LIKE A MID NIGHT VIEWING OF THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW WHERE THE AUDIENCE ALSO KNOWS CERTAIN LINES AND KNOWS SONGS AND ARE SHOUTING IT OUT AS THEY COME UP THROUGHOUT THE PERFORMANCE.

SO THERE'S A STRANGE MIX OF BOTH IMPROVISATION AND FAMILIARITY.

SO LIKE WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD?

THAT'S A MINSTREL JOKE.

THE ICE CREAM TRUCK SONG THAT WE ALL KNOW AS A CHILD, THAT IS A ZIP SONG, THAT IS JIM CROW'S FOIL.

HE'S SORT OF THE URBAN DANDY.

IT'S SORT OF AMAZING.

>> THAT'S CRAZY.

SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT ICE CREAM TRUCK SONG IS ACTUALLY A MINSTREL SONG HE'LL >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SORT OF CONTEMPORARY SCANDALS AROUND BLACKFACE.

YOU KNOW MANY PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER MEGYN KELLY SORT OF STARTED HER CAREER AT FOX NEWS, THEN HAD THIS KIND OF ILL-FATED TENURE, BRIEF TENURE AT NBC, WHERE SHE TRIED TO SORT OF DEFEND BLACKFACE AS KIND OF A HARMLESS, YOU KNOW, FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT AND TWO OF THOSE SORT OF BLACK STARS THERE OBJECTED TO THIS.

AND THEN OF COURSE THERE WAS A FORMER GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA, RALPH NORTHAM, THERE WAS THIS PHOTOGRAPH OF HIM IN A YEARBOOK IN BLACKFACE.

HE SAYS IT WASN'T HIM AND I WAS JUST WONDERING, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE FACT THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS SO UBIQUITOUS HAD SUCH FORCE LATER ON , RIGHT?

>> OF COURSE.

A COUPLE THINGS.

SO THE MEGYN KELLY SITUATION, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT A HALLOWEEN COSTUME FOR DIANA ROSS.

SO THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF BLACKFACE, NOT A MINSTREL SHOW.

SO MINSTREL SHOWS ARE PERFORMED IN BLACKFACE.

BLACKFACE IS JUST A MAKEUP TECHNIQUE.

BUT WHAT SHE WAS ARGUING WAS, BUT I'M HONORING BLACK CULTURE.

I LOVE THIS SUPERSTAR AND THE PUSHBACK WAS DIANA ROSS IS ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMEN IN THE WORLD.

SHE DOES NOT LOOK HOW BLACKFACE LOOKS.

YOU CAN HONOR HER IN OTHER WAYS.

AND THAT WAS THE CONSTANT ARGUMENT IN THE 20th CENTURY AGAINST CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS, WHO WERE TRYING TO GET THIS OUT OF OUR SCHOOLS, OUT OF OUR MILITARY, OUT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND WHITE PROPONENTS WOULD ALWAYS SAY, ONE, THIS IS TRUE AMERICAN CULTURE, IT'S OUR SORT OF CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD CULTURE, AND BLACK CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS WOULD SAY, HOW ABOUT JAZZ?

THAT'S AS WELL SO IT DOES EVENTUALLY SWITCH OVER TO THAT BUT ALSO REALLY TRYING TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY WHITE SUPREMACIST POP-CULTURE.

THIS IS A CULTURAL HATE CRIME THAT DOES NOT ACTUALLY REFLECTIVE OF BLACK, BLACK LIFE, IN ANY CAPACITY.

SO THAT'S SORT OF WHAT MEGYN KELLY FOUND HERSELF IN AT THE CROSSROADS OF THAT CONVERSATION.

IN TERMS OF GOVERNOR NORTHAM, THAT IS ALSO A FASCINATING SITUATION.

SO ONCE AGAIN, HE CLAIMED THAT HE WAS DRESSING UP AS MICHAEL JACKSON BUT SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE OFTEN FORGET IS THAT STANDING NEXT TO HIM, IF WE DON'T KNOW, ACTUALLY IT'S NEVER BEEN CONFIRMED WHICH PERSON HE IS IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, IS A KLANSMAN, AND SO THIS IS NOT ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY BUT IT IS RACIAL TERROR, VERY BLATANTLY.

AND WHEN THAT HAPPENED I REMEMBER THERE WAS SORT OF A CASCADE OF POLITICIANS WHO WERE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN VIRGINIA BEING EXPOSED AS BEING A PART OF THIS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE LIKE I'M CONFUSED ABOUT WHY THIS WAS HAPPENING IN THE 1980S.

WELL HE WAS AT THE VIRGINIA MILITARY INSTITUTE AND SO IT WAS VERY MUCH A PART OF THIS LONGER MILITARY TRADITION, AND ALSO ITS PREVALENCE IN COLLEGE FRATERNITIES AND ALSO ALL-MALE SPACES.

>> WE'VE NEVER SEEN SO MANY OF THESE PICTURES THAT ARE IN YOUR BOOK .

WHY IS THAT?

>> THERE ARE SORT OF TWO THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

ONE IS A VERY SUCCESSFUL LEGACY OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THAT IN THE 1940S, THE 1960S, BLACK WOMEN ESPECIALLY, BLACK MOTHERS IN THE GREAT MIGRATION, AND ALSO STUDENTS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES WERE SO HORRIFIED WHEN THEY WERE INTEGRATING SUBURBIA, K-12 SCHOOLS AND OTHER FORMS OF DAILY LIFE, THAT THEY HAD BEEN EXCLUDED FROM, TO LEARN HOW, YOU KNOW, PERVASIVE BLACKFACE WAS AND HE RECOGNIZED THAT IF YOU WANT TO FIGHT SOMETHING LIKE LYNCHING OR MASS POLITICAL DISENFRANCHISEMENT, THEN YOU HAVE TO ATTACK THE CARICATURES, WHICH ALLOWS AMERICANS TO PSYCHOLOGICALLY FEEL THAT THIS EXCLUSION IS COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED, BUT ALSO MERITED.

AND SO, PART OF WHAT HAPPENS IS THE PENDULUM SWINGS SO FAR THAT THE EVIDENCE OF THESE SHOWS BECOMES CONSIDERED TABOO AND THEY'RE CENSORED , SO ONE STORY THAT I TELL IN THE INTRODUCTION IS I GO TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS IN 2012 AND I KNOW THE TITLES I'M LOOKING FOR FOR THESE HOW TO PLAYS.

I HAVE FIGURED OUT THROUGH THE PUBLISHER ROSTERS WHAT THEY ARE BUT I WANT TO READ WHAT'S ACTUALLY IN THESE PLAYS THAT CHILDREN THROUGHOUT AMERICA WERE BEING ASKED TO PERFORM EACH YEAR AND EACH ITEM KEPT COMING UP MISSING ON SHELF, MISSING ON SHELF, AND WHEN THIS HAPPENED ABOUT THE HUNDREDS TIME I PRETTY MUCH DEMANDED TO TALK TO SOMEBODY.

AND I WAS KIND OF POLITELY INTERROGATED ABOUT WHAT ARE YOU DOING, WHY DO YOU WANT TO SEE THESE, WHAT'S YOUR GOAL HERE, AND SO I HAD A VERY HONEST CONVERSATION WITH THE CURATORS AND THE LIBRARIAN DISAPPEARED.

ABOUT AN HOUR LATER SHE BROUGHT BACK BASICALLY WAGONS FULL OF THIS MATERIAL AND ADMITTED THAT IN 1987 SHE HAD HID IT IN SORT OF THE BOWELS OF THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS BECAUSE WITH THE INVENTION OF THINGS LIKE XEROX MACHINES, THE CLAN IN VIRGINIA WAS GOING IN AND TRYING TO MASS REPRODUCE AND REANIMATE THE BLACKFACE CRAZE THAT THE CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS HAD EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN.

AND SO WHILE WE STILL DO SEE THESE TENTACLES IN THINGS LIKE HALLOWEEN COSTUME, THE CIVIL RIGHTS WORKERS WERE COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL IN SHUTTING DOWN WHAT WAS A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY, AN ANNUAL AMERICAN TRADITION, AND GETTING IT OUT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND SCHOOLS.

SO IT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL CIVIL RIGHTS CAMPAIGNS THAT THEY EVER HAD.

>> AND TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO SAY THIS IS JUST PICKING AT SOURCE, WE DON'T NEED MORE DIVISION, THIS IS BEST BURIED, JUST LEAVE IT IN THE PAST, WE DON'T NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS NOW BECAUSE ALL IT DOES IS REAWAKEN ILL FEELING AT A TIME WHEN WE DON'T NEED THAT, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WHAT I FOUND AS I TRAVELED THE COUNTRY WITH THIS BOOK COMING OUT IS SO MANY AMERICANS COMING UP TO ME AND SAYING I EXPERIENCED THIS AS A CHILD OR MY GRANDFATHER DID THIS ALL THE TIME, ANNUALLY, AND I HAVE NEVER HAD A PLACE WHERE I COULD TALK ABOUT IT.

SO WHAT I'M FINDING IS AFTER MY BOOK TALKS, AMERICANS ARE STICKING AROUND AFTERWARDS AND THEY'RE HAVING INTERRACIAL CONVERSATIONS WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT WHAT DID THIS MEAN, WHY DID I HAVE TO DO THIS IS A FIVE- YEAR-OLD IN JIM CROW, WHY DID MY MOTHER HAVE TO PULL ME OUT OF CLASS AND PROTEST THIS?

I THINK IF WE COULD OPEN MORE SPACES IN AMERICA, I KNOW FOR EXAMPLE, IN GERMANY AND RWANDA THEY ARE VERY INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO FIX SPACES WHERE THE SORT OF NASTY ELEMENTS OF THE HISTORY ARE BEING OPENLY RECKONED WITH AND TALKED ABOUT AND NOT IN A SORT OF CANCEL CULTURE SORT OF WAY BUT MUCH LIKE BLACKFACE TO SAY THIS IMPACTED ALL OF US, EVEN IF YOU DON'T INITIALLY REALIZE IT, IT DID.

SO WHAT DO WE DO WITH THAT?

AND I THINK AMERICANS ARE COMPLETELY READY TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION DESPITE WHAT POWERS MAY BE SAY OTHERWISE.

>> PROFESSOR RHAE LYNN BARNES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT WAS AN HONOR.