>> Bonnie Erbe: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", TAKING ON THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE MOTHER-DAUGHTER RELATIONSHIP IN A NEW MOVIE.

THEN CIVILITY: HAVE WE LOST IT AS AN ASPECT OF THE AMERICAN CHARACTER?

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, MAYBE IT'S THE PANDEMIC THAT WON'T QUIT, THE POLITICAL POLARIZATION, OR BOTH?

WHY ARE AMERICANS SO ANGRY?

AND HAS A SEEMING LOSS OF CIVILITY LED TO A DECREASE IN OUR COUNTRY'S STATUS AS A GREAT DEMOCRACY?

WE SEE AN INCREASE IN PUBLIC ANGER AND A VARIETY OF VENUES, FROM LAST YEAR'S INSURRECTION AT THE U.S. CAPITOL TO PARENTS SCREAMING AT MEMBERS OF SCHOOL BOARDS, PASSENGERS ASSAULTING FLIGHT ATTENDANTS, AND PEOPLE YELLING AT EACH OTHER IN STORES ABOUT WEARING MASKS.

ACADEMIC STUDIES ARE FINDING MORE HOSTILITY IN WORKPLACES, EVEN WHEN PEOPLE ARE WORKING REMOTELY.

AND THERE WAS A PILE UP OF ANGER ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

IN A REPORT, CIVILITY IN AMERICA 2019, 93 PERCENT OF AMERICANS IDENTIFIED INCIVILITY AS A PROBLEM.

68 PERCENT CONSIDERED IT A MAJOR PROBLEM.

THE REPORT ALSO FOUND WOMEN ARE MORE SENSITIZED TO INCIVILITY IN FAVOR MORE ACTION BY PARENTS, EDUCATORS, AND EMPLOYEES.

JOINING ME TODAY ARE CONGRESSWOMAN ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, REPUBLICAN COMMENTATOR AND STONE, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR LARA BROWN, AND REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST RINA SHAH.

WELCOME, EVERYBODY, AND HAPPY NEW YEAR.

ELEANOR, ARE WE REALLY SUFFERING A CRISIS OF CIVILITY?

DOES IT GO MUCH DEEPER AND MORE VIOLENT THAN THAT, OR WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton: WE ARE SUFFERING A CRISIS OF INSTABILITY.

IT'S BECAUSE OF ISOLATION.

WHEN WE ARE -- THE REASON WE BECOME CIVILIZED IS THAT WE HAVE SOCIAL INTERACTION WITH ONE ANOTHER.

WHEN THAT DOES NOT OCCUR IN PERSON, YOU GET THE RESULTS THAT WE ARE SEEING NOW.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO YOU ARE BLAMING IT ON THE PANDEMIC, THEN, RIGHT?

>> Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton: I AM BLMING IT ON THE FOREST ISOLATION THAT THE PANDEMIC HAS PUT US TOO, YES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I REMEMBER SEEING IT START WHEN I COVERED THE HOUSE AND NEWT GINGRICH BEGIN THE VERY KIND OF PERSONAL, YOU KNOW, LASHING OUT PERSONALLY AT POLITICAL OPPONENTS, WHICH HAD -- HAD REALLY NOT BEEN DONE BEFORE, AT LEAST NOT IN THE CURRENT ERA, AND TALKSHOW HOSTS STARTED SCREAMING ON THE RADIO 20, 30 YEARS AGO.

YOU THINK IT'S JUST AS RECENT AS THE PANDEMIC?

>> Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton: I THINK THE PANDEMIC HAS MADE IT MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

DURING THE PANDEMIC, WE HAVE HAD BUSINESSES CONTINUE IN THE HOUSE.

WE HAVE BEEN ON ZOOM AND WE'VE HAD INTERACTIONS WITH THE AVERAGE PERSON HAS BEEN ISOLATED IN HIS OR HER WHOLE WORLD.

IT SHOWS US HOW IMPORTANT SOCIALIZATION IS TO HAVING A SOCIETY OF THAT, IN FACT, GETS ALONG.

THAT IS WHY WE TEACH SOCIALIZATION TO CHILDREN.

BABIES CRY.

BUT WHEN THEY INTERACT WITH THEIR PARENTS AND WITH OTHER CHILDREN, THEY BECOME SOCIALIZED.

WE HAVE BEEN DUE SOCIALIZED DURING THIS PANDEMIC.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ANNE STONE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

YOU ARE A, MAY I SAY SO, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, A TRUMP SUPPORTER.

AND OF COURSE A LOT OF THIS IN LIBERAL CIRCLES IS BEING BLAMED ON, AT LEAST IN PART, ON THE FORMER PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF HIS -- BECAUSE HE LASHED OUT -- >> Ann Stone: BECAUSE OF HIS RHETORIC.

>> Bonnie Erbe: -- ETC.

>> Ann Stone: IT STARTS MUCH EARLIER.

IT STARTED -- HE MAY SAY IT'S SOMEWHAT STARTED UNDER GINGRICH, BUT HE -- GINGRICH AND CLINTON AT LEAST GOT ALONG.

I SAY IT REALLY STARTED TO GO UP OR DOWN, DOWNHILL UNDERBRUSH AND IT'S GOTTEN WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE.

BUT I TOTALLY AGREE WITH ELEANOR THAT THE PANDEMIC HAS SPIKED, AND ISOLATION IS A BIG, IS REALLY BE PART OF IT.

IT'S VERY INTERESTING.

I RECENTLY WENT BACK TO MY HOMETOWN AND TOWARD OUR NEW HIGH SCHOOL.

MY OLD HIGH SCHOOL WAS TORN DOWN.

AND I WAS VERY STRUCK THAT MOST OF THE CLASSROOMS, THERE WERE THINGS UP ON THE WALLS AND IN THE HALLWAYS ABOUT BEING KIND TO EACH OTHER, BEING CIVIL, AND A LOT OF EMPHASIS ON FIGHTING THIS RIGHT AT THE CLASSROOM LEVEL.

SO I, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE EDUCATORS OUT THERE ARE AWARE THAT THEY'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING TO TRY TO GET THE NEXT GENERATION TO GET PAST THAT.

I WAS VERY ENCOURAGED TO SEE THAT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LARA, FROM AN ACADEMIC PERSPECTIVE, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON?

IS THERE ANY SOLUTION?

>> Professor Lara Brown: WELL, I THINK THERE ARE THREE LONG-TERM TRENDS THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND: THE FIRST ONE ACTUALLY CAME TO THE FORE WITH A BOOK THAT WAS WRITTEN IN 2010 CALLED THE SHALLOWS, AND IT WAS ACTUALLY ABOUT WHAT THE INTERNET WAS DOING TO OUR BRAINS.

AND IT WAS REALLY FOCUSED ON THE FACT THAT OUR CURRENT ENGAGEMENT ONLINE IS ALL BASED AROUND INTERRUPTION AND MULTITASKING, AND ALL OF THAT CREATES A LEVEL OF IMPATIENCE, WHICH BECOMES PROBLEMATIC.

IN ADDITION, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OTHER TRENDS, THE DOMINANCE OF REALITY TELEVISION, WHICH IS REALLY PREDICATED ON CONFLICT, OUTRAGE, AND KIND OF SHOCK, THAT HAS ALSO PERMEATED OUR CULTURE.

AND SO, THERE IS A SENSE THAT THE CORRECT WAY TO BEHAVE IS THE WAY THAT THE HOUSEWIVES OF ORANGE COUNTY BEHAVED ONE ANOTHER.

THAT IS PROBLEMATIC.

THE THIRD THING, WHICH I THINK WE NEED TO SORT OF DELVE INTO AND TALK ABOUT, IS ACTUALLY THE DECREASING RELIGIOSITY OF AMERICANS.

OUR FOUNDING FATHERS DEEPLY BELIEVE THAT RELIGION, WHATEVER DENOMINATION, IS WHAT CIVILIZED YOU AND ALLOWED YOU TO BECOME AN ACTIVE CITIZEN IN THE PUBLIC SPACE.

BECAUSE RELIGION IN ITS BEST FORM IS ABOUT LOVE AND HUMILITY; AND IN ITS WORST, IT BECOMES ABOUT SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS AND POWER.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE HAD BOTH KIND OF A DECLINE IN THE PEOPLE WHO SAY RELIGION IS IMPORTANT IN THEIR LIFE AND THEN THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE DEEPLY RELIGIOUS ARE ALSO NOT NECESSARILY ENGAGED IN THE PRACTICE OF HUMILITY AND LOVE IN A WAY THAT MANY OF THE DOCTRINE SAY THEY SHOULD BE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

I WANT TO GO ON TO RINA.

BUT, LARA, I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT YOU BLAME IT ON REALITY TV.

WHAT ABOUT TICKETS BEFORE, THE LIKES OF RUSH LIMBAUGH SCREAMING AT PEOPLE ON THE RADIO FOR DECADES AND DECADES AND DECADES?

AND THAT IS HOW ALL ON THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT THAT -- I LISTEN TO RADIO AMERICA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, RACHEL MADDOW'S FIRST NATIONAL PLATFORM, AND SHE USED TO, YOU KNOW -- SHE WAS NOTHING BUT -- >> Professor Lara Brown: SURE.

BUT, BONNIE, I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW THESE MEDIA GREW UP TOGETHER.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT JERRY SPRINGER WAS ENGAGED IN KIND OF CURRENT CHAIRS AND -- >> Bonnie Erbe: CORRECT.

>> Professor Lara Brown: AND THIS IDEA THAT KIND OF A PLOT POINT FOR A DRAMA IS ON CIVIL ENGAGEMENT, AND THAT CONFLICT THEN BECOMES THE STORY UPON WHICH WHOLE EPISODES AND TELEVISION SERIES ARE BASED IS PROBLEMATIC.

>> Bonnie Erbe: RINA, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Rina Shah: WELL, I HAVE A NUMBER OF THOUGHTS, BONNIE, ON THIS, BECAUSE I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANY OF MICHAEL PANTLESS HERE.

ISOLATION HAS CERTAINLY PLAYED A ROLE, NO DOUBTHERE'S THE PROBLEM OF HAVING BEHIND SCREENS FOR SO LONG, WHETHER IT'S REALITY TV, OR HEARING SHRIEKING ON TALK RADIO FOR SO LONG.

AND THEN ADD IN THE DEGRADATION OF CULTURAL NORMS.

WE HAVE COME TO THIS MOMENT IN TIME OF GREAT INSTABILITY IN AMERICAN SOCIETY BECAUSE IT WAS INEVITABLE.

AMERICAN SOCIETY WAS GOING TO BREAK DOWN AND HAS BROKEN DOWN OVER TIME SO RAPIDLY IN THIS MOMENT, THOUGH, BECAUSE OF THE EROSION OF THE AMERICAN FAMILY, OF HOW WE SEE THE AMERICAN FAMILY UNIT AND, FRANKLY, HOW IT FUNCTIONS AS WELL.

IN GENERAL, WE ARE LESS SUPPORTIVE OF EACH OTHER, NOT JUST IN OUR OWN HOMES NOW, INCREASINGLY SO.

BUT IN AMERICAN LIFE.

WHEN WE GO OUT INTO THE PUBLIC SPHERE, HOW OFTEN ARE FEELING WILLING TO SORT OF SAY, OKAY, LET'S AGREE TO DISAGREE?

IT HAS BECOME ABOUT REALLY WAS THE LOUDEST INTO CAN WIN OUT THAT WAY, WHERE IS WHEN WE WERE CHILDREN WE WERE TOLD THAT'S NOT THE WAY TO WIN AN ARGUMENT.

IT WOULD MAKE A COUPLE POINTS HERE, THOUGH, ABOUT INSTABILITY, AND WE KNOW THAT IS A GENERAL TERM TO DESCRIBE SOCIAL BEHAVIOR THAT LACKS INSTABILITY OR GOOD MANNERS, AND IT CAN REALLY RANGE FROM RUDENESS TO, FRANKLY, DISRESPECTING ELDERS.

NOW, AND THE PRODUCT OF IMMIGRANTS WHO ORIGINALLY ARE FROM INDIA AND AFRICA AND THAT WAS ONE REALLY BIG THING IN OUR CULTURES, IN INDIA AND AFRICA, IS THIS TREMENDOUS RESPECT FOR ELDERS.

YOU MUST TAKE CARE OF ELDERS AT ALL COSTS.

THAT COMES FIRST.

ELEVATE THE ELDERS.

WHAT I'VE SEEN IN AMERICAN SOCIETY IS THAT WE HAVE SHOPPED THE ELDERS AWAY.

SO WHEN WE LEFT THAT WISDOM, I THINK, THAT ALSO BECOMES PROBLEMATIC IN THE AMERICAN FAMILY UNIT AND BLEEDS OUT INTO SOCIETY.UT MOREOVER, THERE IS THIS TIDE OF POLITICIZATION THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, ABOUT OUR POLITICS OF THE DAY, OUR LEADERS SPEAK AND ACT AND REACT.

I THINK ONE THING FOR ME AND HAVING MADE MY CAREER IN POLITICS OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES AND GOVERNMENT, I SHOULD ADD, IS HOW -- HOW I'VE SEEN POLITICIANS CONTINUE TO PUT PEOPLE IN BOXES, OTHERED PEOPLE.

A GREAT PROBLEM OF OUR MOMENT IS HOW WE SEE OTHER PEOPLE.

RE WE WILLING TO SEE THEM AS NEIGHBORS, AS PART OF THIS GREAT SOCIAL EXPERIMENT THAT IS AMERICA?

I THINK INCREASINGLY WE ARE UNWILLING TO DO SO, AND SO THAT OTHERING OF PEOPLE, PUTTING THEM IN BOXES THAT THEY MAY NOT WANT TO BE IN OR BE PUT IN HER WOULD NOT EVEN DESCRIBES THEMSELVES IN.

THAT'S BEING DONE BY EXTERNAL FORCES.

THAT'S BEEN DONE BY OUR LEADERS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I WANT TO THROW IT OUT THERE AND SAY IT -- ARE WE GOING TO SEE MORE VIOLENCE?

ARE WE GOING -- WHAT IF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS REELECTED?

WILL HE BE?

AND 40 PERCENT OF REPUBLICANS SAY VIOLENCE IS SOMETIMES TESTIFIED TOWARDS GETTING POLITICAL ENDS MET.

WHAT IS THE FUTURE FOR THIS COUNTRY?

ARE WE GOING TO KEEP RIOTING AND BEING UNCIVIL TOWARD EACH OTHER, WHICH I KNOW ARE TWO DIFFERENT QUESTIONS, BUT STILL, LOOK TO THE FUTURE.

IS THIS GOING TO GO AWAY OR IS IT GOING TO TAKE DOWN DEMOCRACY?

>> Rina Shah: I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT'S GOING TO TAKE DOWN DEMOCRACY ENTIRELY, BUT IT WANT TO SAY THE PROBLEM IS HERE TO STAY IF WE AS INDIVIDUALS DON'T DO OUR PART.

I KNOW THAT PEOPLE OFTEN LIKE, WHAT CAN I DO?

MAYBE WE ARE JUST ONE OR TWO PEOPLE, BUT THAT'S HOW CHANGE BEGINS AND IT WILL TAKE A MULTIPRONGED APPROACH.IT STARTS IN STRENGTHENING THE AMERICAN FAMILY, THE AMERICAN COMMUNITY AND HOW WE TALK ABOUT WHAT'S ACCEPTABLE ANYMORE.

AND IN THIS MOMENT, IT'S A PROBLEM THAT IS NOT GOING AWAY BECAUSE THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY, IT FEELS LIKE AT MANY LEVELS, AND THEY ARE ALSO NOT PEOPLE TAKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE PART TO BETTER AMERICAN SOCIETY.

SO I CERTAINLY HOPE IT GETS BETTER IN OUR TIME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ELEANOR, GO AHEAD.

YOUR THOUGHTS.

IS IT GOING TO GO AWAY OR RUIN US?

>> Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton: I CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S GOING TO SAY, AND I DO THINK THAT IT HAS BEEN FAVORED BY THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY AND THE CROSSCURRENTS THAT -- THAT IT HAS GENERATED.

AND I BELIEVE THAT IF THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS REELECTED, IT IS GOING TO STAY.

BUT IF NOT, I THINK IN TIME THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WELCOME BACK TO THEMSELVES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LARA?

>> Professor Lara Brown: WELL, I THINK THAT IT IS PROBABLY HERE TO STAY FOR A WHILE, BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT ALL OF THE INCENTIVES THAT EXIST IN TERMS OF MAKING MONEY IN THIS COUNTRY ENCOURAGE IT.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLATFORMS, WHETHER THEY ARE SOCIAL MEDIA OR ENTERTAINMENT TYPE TELEVISION THAT ACTUALLY DO PROMOTE IT.

SO IT IS -- >> Bonnie Erbe: BECAUSE SUPPOSEDLY IT INCREASES RATINGS, ALTHOUGH -- >> Professor Lara Brown: BUT IT ALSO INCREASES ALL VIEWERS, RIGHT?

THE NUMBER OF FOLLOWERS, THE NUMBER -- THE ABILITY OF YOU TO BE AN INFLUENCER IS PARTLY ABOUT HOW LOUD YOU CAN MAKE YOURSELF AND HOW OUTRAGEOUS CAN YOU SORT OF BEHAVE.

SO THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO EVEN JUST THINGS LIKE SAYING PLEASE AND THANK YOU, WHERE THERE ARE MANY MORE INCENTIVES TO BE SAYING MANY WORSE THINGS, EVEN THINGS THAT DON'T SOUND LIKE THEY SHOULD BE, LIKE LET'S GO BRANDON.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

ANNE, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Ann Stone: WELL, I WAS GOING TO SAY, LISTEN AGAIN TO A RINA AND WHAT LARA SAID ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE FAMILY AND THE BREAKDOWN OF RELIGION.

IF WE REALLY WANT IN THE LONG-TERM TO DEAL WITH THIS, THOSE ARE TWO ISSUES, VERY IMPORTANT TO THIS.

BUT ONE OF THE OTHER BIG PARTS IS THE MEDIA.

WE'VE GOT TO GET THE MEDIA TO START EMPHASIZING UNITY AND FINDING WAYS TO HELP BRING US TOGETHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE PART OF WHAT IS DIVIDING US, EVERYONE.

NUMBER TWO, I THINK THERE IS INTEREST IN THE COUNTRY FOR THINGS TO CHANGE.

I THINK THE SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY WILL NOT PROVIDE AS MUCH IS THE FIRST DAY BECAUSE HE WILL BE RUNNING AGAIN, SO THEREFORE THERE'S GOING TO BE HOPEFULLY LESS REASON FOR THE CONSTANT TURMOIL AND INSECURITIES COMING OUT OF HIM.

BUT I HAVE TO SAY THAT ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IS THE TWO SIDES REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, AND IF YOU READ STUFF FROM THE FAR RIGHT AND STUFF FROM THE FAR LEFT, YOU WONDER WHAT PLANET BOTH ARE ON, BECAUSE THEIR VIEWS OF EACH OTHER ARE SO DISTORTED, YOU CAN GET PEOPLE TOGETHER UNTIL YOU GET THEM TOGETHER AND GET THEM TO LISTEN AND SEARCH FOR COMMON GROUND, WHICH IS A GREAT ORGANIZATION, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION.

ONE OF THEIR TENANTS IS THEY HAVE YOU TAKE A SURVEY AND A SURVEY WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT YOURSELF AND WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR OPPOSITION.

AND ALWAYS, IT IS SO DIFFERENT AND ONE OF THE FIRST WAYS THAT THEY BREAK DOWN THE WALLS, BECAUSE THEY PUBLISH THE RESULTS WHILE YOU ARE IN THE ROOM AND THEY SHOW PEOPLE HOW DISTORTED THEIR VIEW IS OF THE OTHER AND HAS HELPED BREAK DOWN THE WALLS AND GET PEOPLE TO TALK.

HAVE THE PROBLEM TODAY.

THEY HAVE TOTALLY DISTORTED VIEWS OF EACH OTHER.

THE SEARCH FOR COMMON GROUND, THE PROCESS FOR GETTING PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE ROOM WOULD'VE KILLED EACH OTHER, AND I MEAN THAT LITERALLY, NOT FIGURATIVELY, GET THEM IN THE ROOM ON A WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES.

BUT I'VE SEEN ON THE ABORTION ISSUE, OF COURSE, AND GET PEOPLE WHO NEVER WOULD EVEN BE IN THE SAME ROOM TO ACTUALLY TALK AND WORK TOGETHER.

UNBELIEVABLEND THERE IS A PROCESS WHERE YOU CAN BREAK DOWN THE WALLS AND GETS ABILITY AND GET PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER.

>> Professor Lara Brown: I DO THINK WE HAVE ALL JUST BECOME SO IMPATIENT, SO IMPATIENT AND SO SELF-CENTERED BECAUSE OF IT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHTY.

THANK YOU ALL ON THIS!

JUST WANT TO SAY THAT THERE ARE ACADEMICS WHO SAY THAT RELIGION IS JUST AS DIVISIVE, IF NOT MORE DIVISIVE, THEN IT IS UNIFYING AND IT ALSO BUILDS UP WALLS TO LOOK AT THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

SO MANY CONFLICTS ARE DRIVEN BY RELIGION.

SO THEY ARE TWO SIDES TO THAT ARGUMENT.

>>> ONTO THE NEXT: FROM ON IN CIVILITY TO MOTHERHOOD, THAT'S ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THE LOST DAUGHTER ATTEMPTS TO UNRAVEL.

THE NETFLIX FILM INTRODUCES VIEWERS TO A 40+ WOMAN ON A WORKING VACATION ON A GREEK ISLAND.

THROUGH FLASHBACKS, VIEWERS LEARN LEDA IS DIVORCED AND LEFT HER TWO SMALL DAUGHTERS FOR THREE YEARS, BOTH MOTHER AND FATHER WERE PROFESSORS.

BUT CHILDCARE AND CHILD-REARING HAS BEEN RELEGATED TO LEDA.

SHE LEFT DUE TO THE DEMANDS OF RAISING CHILDREN WHILE TRYING TO ADVANCE HER ACADEMIC CAREER.

DURING THE TRIP, LEDA TELLS A PREGNANT WOMAN ABOUT THE DIFFICULTY OF MOTHERHOOD, CALLING IT A CRUSHING RESPONSIBILITYHE MOVIE AVOIDS THE STEREOTYPES OF THE DOTING MOTHER OR THE EVIL MOTHER, BUT IT QUESTIONS WHETHER ALL WOMEN ARE NATURAL MOTHERS.

RINA, YOU HAVE TWO SMALL CHILDREN.

WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT THAT NOT ALL WOMEN ARE CUT OUT FROM AHEAD?

>> Rina Shah: GOODNESS, THAT'S A TOUGH, THE PRIEST TO HEAR, NOT ALL WOMEN FROM OTHER RIGHT.

I MYSELF NEVER SET OUT TO BE A MOTHER, BUT IT HAPPENED AND IT WAS A GREAT GIFTFTER I REALIZED WHAT A GIFT IT WAS WHEN IT HAPPENED, I WASN'T PREPARED.

I HADN'T REALLY PLANNED ON IT.

BUT SOME WOULD SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, WE LIVE IN THE ERA OF BIRTH CONTROL.

I SAID, WELL, MY PERSONAL VALUES LED ME TO NEVER TAKE IT AND ALSO HELP IT CONCERNS AS WELL.

I JUST REALIZED THAT HAVING CHILDREN WOULD CHANGE MY LIFE THE WAY IT DID.

AND WHEN WOMEN CHOOSE TO NOT DO THAT, I DON'T LOOK AT THEM ANY DIFFERENTLY, BECAUSE I REALIZE THAT OUR CHOICES ARE SO NUANCED.

THEY ARE DIFFICULT.

AND IN THIS ERA WERE WE HAVE CHOICES AGAIN TO TAKE A PILL THAT PROHIBITS US FROM DOING SO, I WELCOME THE OPPORTUNITY FOR WOMEN TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CHILDLESS BY CHOICE, BUT I ALSO THINK -- >> Bonnie Erbe: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.

CHILD FREE.

>> Rina Shah: CHILD FREE.

>> Rina Shah: >> Bonnie Erbe: I KNOW EVERYONE SAYS CHILDLESS, BUT IT MAKES ME -- AS A CHILD.

WOMEN.

THAT TERM MAKES ME GO CRAZY.

GO AHEAD.

>> Rina Shah: AND WE NEED TO, AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED.

WE NEED A CHANGE IN MESSAGING ON HOW WE TALK ABOUT MOTHERHOOD IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.

BUT I WILL SAY THIS IS THAT MOTHERHOOD IS SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY I HOPE GETS A CHANCE TO EXPLORE IF THEY WANT TO.

IF THEY DON'T, WE SHOULD WELCOME THAT AS WELL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WE GOTTA MOVE ONARA, YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAD A CHANCE TO WATCH THE MOVIE, BUT IT PAINTS A VERY NEGATIVE PORTRAIT OF THE PROFESSOR.

SHE IS THE -- STEALS A DOLL FROM SOMEBODY ELSE WHOSE CHILD HAS LOST ITS.

SHE DOESN'T DO IT ON PURPOSE.

SHE'S MADE OUT TO BE KIND OF CRAZY, AND IT'S NOT VERY FLATTERING PICTURE OF HER AT ALL.

SO IS THAT FAIR?

>> Professor Lara Brown: WELL, LOOK, I DO THINK THAT WOMEN WRESTLE WITH BEING DEFINED AS ONLY MOTHERS, AND I DO THINK THAT THERE IS KIND OF A CULTURAL OVERLAY THAT MANY WOMEN, LIKE MYSELF WHO DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN, AND UP FEELING AS THOUGH SOMEHOW WE ARE LESS THAN AS A WOMAN BECAUSE WE HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

AND I DO THINK THAT THIS FILM IS WRESTLING WITH THIS IDEA OF, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A MOTHER?

IS EVERY MOTHER A GOOD MOTHER?

IS IT REALLY THE OBLIGATION OF A WOMAN WHO JUST BECOME A MOTHER THAN TO BE A GOOD AND THOUGHTFUL MOTHER?

I THINK, YOU KNOW, JUST HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE REALLY ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT YOU CAN ALMOST GUARANTEE THAT THERE WILL NEVER BE THE FILM MADE UNLESS IT'S MADE BY A WOMAN PRODUCER AND DIRECTOR ABOUT, OR ALL MEN CUT OUT TO BE GOOD FATHERS, RIGHT?

>> Professor Lara Brown: THAT'S RIGHT.

LOOK, I TAUGHT A CLASS ON WOMEN IN POLITICS.

I HAD A CLASS THAT WAS 12 WOMEN AND TWO MEN, BECAUSE IT WAS A SENIOR SEMINAR.

AND THE WOMEN AT ONE POINT GOT INTO A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE PROS AND CONS OF HAVING CHILDREN EARLY IN THEIR CAREERS RESULTS LATER IN THEIR CAREERS, GIVEN WHAT THEY WANTED TO DO WITH THEIR LIVES.

AND AT ONE POINT, ONE OF THE SENIORS IN THE CLASS STOPPED AND LOOKED AT THE TWO GUYS IN THE CLASS AND THEY SAID, HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT ABOUT THIS?

AND THE TWO BOYS IN THE CLASS SAID NO, WE'VE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT TRYING TO TIME MOTHERHOOD TO FIT WITH OUR CAREERS.

AND I THINK THAT THAT WAS REALLY ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE LARGER SOCIETAL PROBLEM.

THE ONUS -- >> Bonnie Erbe: RIGHT, EXACTLY.

ELEANOR, BEFORE I ASK YOU TO RESPOND, I JUST WANT TO NOTE THAT AT THIS POINT, ABOUT 20 PERCENT OF AMERICANS ARE ELECTING NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

OF COURSE AT A MUCH LARGER PERCENTAGE ARE ELECTING NOT TO GET MARRIED, AT LEAST NOT BEFORE THE CHILDREN, LONG.

NOW, BUT THIS IN THE FUTURE, POLLS SHOW ABOUT 40 PERCENT OF AMERICANS PLAN NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN, PROBABLY MAINLY FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, BUT MAYBE NOT.

MAYBE JUST BECAUSE THEY LOOK AT THE CULTURE OF THIS COUNTRY WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, YOU GOTTA HAVE KIDS, YOU GOTTA HAVE KIDS.

AND THEY SAY, BUT THAT'S NOT FOR ME.

WHAT YOU THINK?

>> Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELCOME THIS IS A REMARKABLE TURNAROUND WHEN YOU CONSIDER HOW WE WERE RAISED, AND I'M SURE ALL OF US WERE RAISED IN THE SAME WAY: IF YOU WERE A GIRL, YOU HAD DOLLS AND THOSE DOLLS WERE SUPPOSED -- WERE ESSENTIALLY TRAINING FOR MOTHERHOODOLICE DID NOT HAVE DOLLS.

THEY WERE NOT TRAINED FOR FATHERHOOD.

THEY WERE TRAINED TO GROW UP AND BE WHOEVER THEY WANTED TO BE.

THE YOUNG PEOPLE I THINK PROBABLY FOR ECONOMIC REASONS ARE RETHINKING THEIR OWN ROLES IN SOCIETY.

IN ONE OF THOSE ROLES IS WHETHER OR NOT TO HAVE CHILDRENT MAY BE FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, BUT IT MAY BE FOR OTHER REASONS AS WELL.

THIS IS HAPPENING BEFORE OUR VERY EYES, AND I'M NOT SURE THE WORLD HAS TAKEN NOTE OF IT.

BUT WITH POPULATION NO LONGER GROWING, WE SEE SOME COUNTRIES ACTUALLY PAY PEOPLE TO HAVE CHILDREN.

THE UNITED STATES MAKE GET TO THAT POINT AS WELL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT ND YOUR THOUGHTS, ANNE?

>> Ann Stone: WELL, MY FAMILY AND IN MY CIRCLE OF FRIENDS, I HAVE A SLEW OF WOMEN WHO ARE BOTH MOTHERS AND CAREER WOMEN.

AND WHAT DISTURBED ME ABOUT THE BOOK IS IT ALMOST MADE IT SEEM LIKE HE COULDN'T, YOU KNOW, IF YOU CHOOSE TO HAVE A CAREER, SOMEHOW THAT WAS GOING TO MAKE YOU ON A LOUSY MOTHER.

SO I DID TAKE OFFENSE AT THAT.

BUT AS YOU KNOW, I CHOSE NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN, BUT IN LARGE PART BECAUSE OF WHO MY EX-HUSBAND WAS, I DECIDED THE WORLD DESERVED A BREAK AND SOMEDAY THE NOBEL PEACE COMMITTEE WILL NOMINATE ME FOR A PRIZE, BECAUSE HIS NEXT WIFE WAS BEYOND CHILDBEARING.

BUT THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER STORY.

IN IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TOO TO SEE WHERE THE DISCUSSION GOES IN THE FUTURE SINCE ELON MUSK NOW SAYS THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM IN THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE UNDER POPULATION IN THE FUTURE.

SO THAT'S A WHOLE, WHOLE OTHER DISCUSSION, WHOLE OTHER SHOW.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

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