>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE VENEZUELAN STRONGMAN NICOLAS MADURO PLEADS NOT GUILTY TO NARCO TERRORISM CHARGES IN NEW YORK AFTER BEING CAPTURED BY THE UNITED STATES IN AN AUDACIOUS MILITARY OPERATION OVER THE WEEKEND.

WE GET THE DETAILS FROM THE COURTROOM AND I ASK FORMER ACTING U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO VENEZUELA, TOM ROBINSON, WHETHER THE U.S.

SHOULD RUN THE COUNTRY 'S TRANSFER.

THEN, MADURO'S DEPUTY BECOMES ACTING VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT.

TRUMP DISMISSES THE COUNTRY'S OPPOSITION PARTY.

I SPEAK WITH ONE OF THOSE POLITICIANS, DAVID SMOLINSKI.

>>> PLUS, IF THIS IS THE NEW TRUMP DOCTRINE, COULD CUBA, COLOMBIA, MEXICO, GREENLAND, IRAN BE NEXT?

JORGE CASTANEDA JOINS ME WITH THE BIG PICTURE.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, CECILIA A AND SIMON BE POINTED PROGRAMMING TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SHOWING WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

LONDON.

NOT GUILTY.

COMPLETELY INNOCENT.

SO SAVE THE OUSTED RESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO AND HIS WIFE IN A NEW YORK COURT TODAY.

THIS COMES JUST DAYS AFTER A STUNNING OPERATION SAW U.S.

SPECIAL FORCES RAID THE CAPITAL OF VENEZUELA, CARACAS, ARREST THE DICTATOR AND HIS WIFE FROM THEIR BEDS IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT, AND EXTRACT THEM TO THE UNITED STATES TO FACE NARCO TERRORISM AND WEAPONS CHARGES.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP DECLARED HIS INTENTION WAS TO ASSERT, QUOTE, AMERICAN DOMINANCE IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE AND HIS NUMBER ONE FOCUS IS VENEZUELA'S OIL.

MADURO'S DEPUTY, KELSEY RODRIGUEZ, IS ACTING AS INTERIM PRESIDENT, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE IT CLEAR WHO'S REALLY IN CHARGE.

>> DON'T ASK ME WHO'S IN CHARGE BECAUSE I GIVE YOU AN ANSWER THAT WILL BE VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> WE ARE IN CHARGE.

>> WILL HE'S ALSO THREATENED RODRIGUEZ WITH MORE MILITARY ACTION IF SHE DOESN'T DO AMERICA'S BIDDING.

THESE EXTRAORDINARY DEVELOPMENTS HAVE SHAKEN THE INTERNATIONAL WORLD ORDER WITH MANY LEADER EXPERTS CALLING AMERICA'S MOVE BLATANTLY ILLEGAL.

WE'LL GET INTO ALL OF THAT IN THIS HOUR, BUT FIRST TO NEW YORK, WHERE MADURO AND HIS WIFE DID ANSWER THAT PLEA IN A MANHATTAN COURTROOM AND ARE AWAITING LEAVING THAT PLACE.

CORRESPONDENT LEE WALDMAN IS THERE.

SHE HAS SOME DETAILS.

YOU'RE WAITING FOR MADURO AND HIS WIFE TO COME OUT.

WHAT ARE THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THE COURT APPEARANCE?

>> CHRISTIANE, IT WAS A VERY INTERESTING INITIAL APPEARANCE FOR THE OUSTED VENEZUELAN LEADER NICOLAS MADURO AND HIS WIFE, CELIA FLORES.

IT TOOK ABOUT 30 MINUTES BUT THE JUDGE GRANTING SOME LEEWAY HERE AS THE COUPLE WAS USING TRANSLATORS TO ENTER IN THOSE NOT GUILTY PLEAS.

MADURO IDENTIFYING HIMSELF, SAYING I AM THE PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA, AND WHEN HE WAS ASKED FOR HIS PLEA HE SAID, QUOTE,, I'M INNOCENT, NOT GUILTY.

FLOOR IS ON HER PART IDENTIFIES HERSELF AS THE FIRST LADY OF VENEZUELA AND WHEN SHE WAS ASKED FOR HER PLEA SHE SAID NOT GUILTY, COMPLETELY INNOCENT.

AT THIS POINT, BOTH OF THEIR ATTORNEYS ARE NOT SEEKING BAIL.

THEY SAID THAT WILL COME AT A LATER POINT.

SOMETHING ELSE THAT STOOD OUT TO US IN THIS COURTROOM IS THEIR ATTORNEYS ARE ASKING FOR MEDICAL EVALUATION FOR THE COUPLE.

THEY APPEARED BRUISED.

THE FIRST LADY, HER ATTORNEY, HE WAS SAYING, SPECIFICALLY ASKING FOR MEDICAL EVALUATIONS BECAUSE SHE HAD SIGNIFICANT INJURIES, QUOTE, DURING HER ABDUCTION.

THIS WAS THE LANGUAGE THAT WAS USED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

WHEN MADURO HIMSELF WAS SPEAKING, AGAIN THROUGH THE USE OF THAT TRANSLATOR, HE HAD SAID THAT HE WAS CAPTURED FROM HIS HOME.

THAT'S GIVEN US SOME INITIAL INSIGHT INTO WHAT A POSSIBLE DEFENSE IN THIS CASE COULD BE.

HIS ATTORNEY, BARRY SAYING THAT HE'S A DECENT MAN, WHEN HE ENTERED THAT NOT GUILTY PLEA, AND SAYING THAT IT WAS A MILITARY OF ACTION AND THAT HIS ATTORNEY IS SAYING THAT THEY VIOLATED THE LAW WHEN HE WAS CAPTURED FROM HIS HOME JUST HIS WIFE.

THAT'S GIVEN US SOME INITIAL INSIGHT INTO WHAT THE DEFENSE OF THIS MIGHT BE.

ALSO THEY'RE SAYING THAT HE SHOULD HAVE IMMUNITY BECAUSE HE'S THE LEADER OF THIS COUNTRY.

THE JUDGE AT THIS POINT IS SAYING THEY WILL BE BACK IN COURT ON MARCH 17th AT 11:00 A.M.

TO CONTINUE MOVING THROUGH WHAT IS EXPECTED TO BE A YEARS LONG PROSECUTION OF THE COUPLE HERE.

>> JUST FINALLY, QUICKLY, MEANTIME THEY WILL SPEND THIS TIME IN THAT JAIL, RIGHT?

IN BROOKLYN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO THEY WERE GOING TO BE TAKEN BACK TO THE METROPOLITAN DETENTION CENTER IN BROOKLYN.

IT'S A FACILITY THAT'S SEEN A LOT OF HIGH-PROFILE INMATES, INCLUDING SEAN DIDDY COMBS, R KELLY AND LUIGI MANGIONE THERE, SO THEY'RE BEING TRANSPORTED BACK TO THE PRISON NOW?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US OUTSIDE THE COURT THERE PURPOSE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION INSISTS THAT MADURO'S CAPTURE WAS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION BUT THEY WERE SIMPLY CARRYING OUT AN ARREST WARRANT FOR THE LEADER OF A, QUOTE, NARCO TERRORIST BUT DURING AN EMERGENCY UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL MEETING TODAY, THE SECRETARY- GENERAL SAID HE WAS, QUOTE, DEEPLY CONCERNED THAT RULES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW HAVE NOT BEEN RESPECTED.

IT IS A DRAMATIC RETURN TO 19TH- CENTURY GUNBOAT DIPLOMACY CRITICS SAY EVEN A SUCCESSFUL OPERATION WITH NO APPARENT SIGN OF A DAY AFTER PLAN IS FRAUGHT WITH RISK AND EVEN FAILURE.

SO LET'S BRING IN TODD ROBINSON, WHO SERVED AS AMERICA'S ACTING AMBASSADOR TO VENEZUELA DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM.

HE'S ALSO SERVING THE BUREAU OF INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AFFAIRS AND THEREFORE IS HIGHLY QUALIFIED TO TALK TO US ABOUT THIS MOMENT.

AMBASSADOR ROBINSON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU JUST TO COMMENT ON WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT WHAT WENT DOWN IN COURT?

SO ARE YOU SURPRISED WITH THE WAY IT WENT FROM THE SMALL AMOUNTS OF DETAIL YOU'VE JUST BEEN LISTENING TO?

>> NO I'M NOT SURPRISED AT ALL.

I MEAN THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM HAS A PROCESS.

THIS LOOKED LIKE VERY MUCH A NORMAL PROCESS THAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE.

WE SAW IT WITH MANWELL NORIEGA IN PANAMA.

WE SAW IT WITH ONE ORLANDO HERNANDEZ IN HONDURAS.

WE'VE SEEN IT WITH OTHER LEADERS IN THE REGION PURPOSE OF THIS LOOKED NORMAL.

I WILL SAY, THOUGH, THAT I'M STRUCK BY HOW MADURO LOOK, BOTH MADURO AND HIS WIFE LOOKED SORT OF COWERING WHEN, JUST A WEEK AGO, HE WAS LITERALLY DANCING AND ALMOST TAUNTING THE ADMINISTRATION TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, A, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU WOKE UP TO HEAR WHAT HAD HAPPENED IN THAT OPERATION?

AND THAT VIDEO OF HIM SEEMING TO MARK THE WHOLE PRESSURE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION PUT ON HIM, KNOW, BECAUSE HE SERVED UNDER TRUMP AT ONE POINT IN VENEZUELA, DO YOU THINK THAT BASICALLY COULD'VE BEEN A TIPPING POINT MOMENT OR WAS THIS SO DEFINITELY ON THE CARDS, WE HEAR IT WAS PLANNED FOR MONTHS, THERE WERE REHEARSALS, THERE WAS AN INFORMANT, THERE WAS A CIA INTELLIGENCE AND ALL THE REST OF IT?

>> I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD DISCOUNT EITHER OF THOSE SCENARIOS.

THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THE WAY THIS OPERATION WENT DOWN TACTICALLY, THE MILITARY WAS READY TO DO WHAT IT WAS CALLED UPON TO DO.

AND I AM IN AWE AS EVER OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY ABILITY TO DO THESE KINDS OF OPERATIONS.

THEY PLAN RIGOROUSLY, REGULARLY, FOR THINGS LIKE THIS, AND THEY --THEY'RE ALWAYS READY.

POSSIBLE, RIGHT?

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE TAUNTING COULD HAVE CAUSED THIS.

I JUST DON'T KNOW AND I THINK WE LEARN EVERY DAY, OVER THE PAST YEAR, THAT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE COMING FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> SO THAT'S ONE THING WE'LL GET INTO, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEPS YOU THINK MIGHT BE POSSIBLE, BUT I JUST WANT TO FOCUS ON THE REASONS FOR THIS.

WE'VE BEEN REPORTING, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN SAYING, A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS OVER THE MONTHS IN WHICH THEY'VE RATCHETED UP THIS PRESSURE, SENDING IN THAT HUGE NAVAL FLEET INTO THE CARIBBEAN, OFF THE COAST OF VENEZUELA, BUILDING UP AMERICAN BASE THERE IN TRINIDAD, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

IT WAS A, ABOUT DRUGS, WHICH IS WHAT HE'S FACING IN COURT.

B, WAS IT ABOUT DEMOCRACY?

C, IS IT ABOUT OIL?

WHAT IS IT ACTUALLY ABOUT?

BECAUSE LET'S BE VERY, VERY FAIR, AND I WANT YOU TO CONFIRM THIS FOR ME, DRUG TRAFFICKING IS IN FACT NOT A BIG THING WHEN IT COMES TO VENEZUELA.

IT'S A TRANSIT ROUTE, NOT A PRODUCER.

THE U.N.

SAYS ONLY ABOUT 5% OF COLOMBIAN COCAINE PASSES THROUGH VENEZUELA AND 96% OF FENTANYL SEIZED BY THE U.S.

HAS BEEN INTERCEPTED ON THE MEXICO BORDER.

VENEZUELA HAS NO CONNECTION TO U.S.

FENTANYL.

SO CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE WHOLE DRUG INDICTMENT?

>> WELL OKAY, SO I THINK WE HAVE TWO SEPARATE THE INDICTMENT FROM THE REASON FOR WHY THIS ACTION WAS TAKEN.

>> YEAH.

>> IT IS VERY CLEAR IF YOU LOOK AT THE INDICTMENT THAT NICOLAS MADURO AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM, INCLUDING THE VENEZUELAN MILITARY, WHERE INVOLVED IN NARCOTICS, FACILITATING NARCOTICS TRAFFICKING THROUGH VENEZUELA.

OF THAT, THERE IS VERY LITTLE DOUBT.

SO LET'S SET THAT ASIDE, THINK IT'S FRANKLY GOING TO BE FAIRLY EASY FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK TO PROVE THAT.

SO LET'S SET THAT ASIDE.

I THINK THE COMPLICATING FACTOR IS THE MESSAGES COMING OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE ON THIS.

WHY THEY ARE --WHY THEY DID THIS NOW, WHY THEY HAVE SEVERAL DIFFERENT STORIES FOR WHY THEY ARE DOING THIS, IS REALLY QUITE WORRYING.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S WORRYING THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S PROBABLY WORRYING MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

THERE IS NO CLARITY ON WHY THEY ARE DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW, AND I HAVE TO SAY THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY WERE DOING IT BECAUSE OF DRUG TRAFFICKING IN THE EASTERN CARIBBEAN IS REALLY QUITE WEAK.

AS YOU 95, 96 PERCENT OF THE DRUGS COMING INTO THE UNITED STATES WERE COMING UP FROM CENTRAL AMERICA, FROM SOUTH AMERICA, THROUGH CENTRAL AMERICA AND MEXICO, TO OUR SOUTHWEST BORDER.

SO I THINK --YOU KNOW IT COULD BE ALL OF THOSE REASONS.

IT COULD BE NONE OF THOSE REASONS.

AGAIN, THIS IS HOW WE'VE SEEN THIS ADMINISTRATION OPERATE OVER THE PAST YEAR.

>> SO AGAIN, YOU KNOW THIS ADMINISTRATION AND LET'S JUST POINT OUT ONE WHAT APPEARS TO BE MASSIVE CONTRADICTION, SOME MIGHT CALL IT AN ABSURDITY, WHEN YOU BRING THIS GUY IN, MADURO, TO FACE DRUG CHARGES AND THE SAME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, DONALD TRUMP, PARDONS AN ACTUAL PRESIDENT OF HONDURAS, A FORMER PRESIDENT, JUAN ORLANDO HERNANDEZ, WHO HAD BEEN TRIED AND CONVICTED IN NEW YORK, AND FACING LONG, LONG, LONG JAIL TIME, 45 YEARS FOR DRUG TRAFFICKERS, MOVING SOME 400 TONS OF COKE THROUGH HONDURAS TO THE UNITED STATES, HE GETS PARDONED.

SO HOW ARE PEOPLE, EITHER IN VENEZUELA OR IN THE REST OF THE WORLD, OR IN THE UNITED STATES, MEANT TO GRAPPLE WITH THAT?

>> I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THIS IS A HUGE CONTRADICTION AND IT UNDERMINES THE CREDIBILITY, FRANKLY, OF THE ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN AGAINST MADURO.

HERE YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT THAT WAS ALSO CONVICTED BY THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, WHO CLEARLY WAS INVOLVED IN NARCOTICS TRAFFICKING AND FOR SOME REASON, WE STILL DON'T KNOW WHY, WAS PARDONED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

AND NOW YOU HAVE NICOLAS MADURO, WHO IS IN THE SAME COURTROOM, PROBABLY, THAT JUAN ORLANDO HERNANDEZ WAS IN, FOR BASICALLY THE SAME CHARGES, BEING CHARGED BY THE SAME PROSECUTORS THAT PROSECUTED JUAN ORLANDO HERNANDEZ.

CONTRADICTION AND SOMETHING, AGAIN, THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION WILL HAVE TO ANSWER.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP ALSO DISMISSED THE IDEA THAT THE OPPOSITION --UP UNTIL NOW WE'VE HEARD THE UNITED STATES AND ALL THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TALK ABOUT THE OPPOSITION AS THE LEGITIMATE OPPOSITION, WHO RIGHTLY AND FAIRLY ONE ACTUALLY LATEST ELECTION, THE 2024 ELECTION IN VENEZUELA.

THEY ASSESS THAT IT WAS STOLEN BY THE MADURO REGIME.

AND YET, NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP DISMISSES MARIA KARINA Machado.

WE ARE GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A MINUTE, SAYS SHE'S NOT UP TO IT, SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE RESPECT OF THE PEOPLE OR THE MILITARY, BUT HE DOES TALK ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY, PRESIDENT TRUMP, ABOUT OIL, OIL IN VENEZUELA.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID ON AIR FORCE ONE.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN.

>> REMEMBER, THEY STOLE OUR PROPERTY.

IT WAS THE GREATEST THEFT IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA.

PROPERTY LIKE THEY HAVE.

THEY TOOK OUR OIL AWAY FROM US.

THEY TOOK THE INFRASTRUCTURE AWAY, AND ALL THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IS ROTTED AND DECAYED, AND THE OIL COMPANIES ARE GOING TO GO IN AND REBUILD IT.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO SPEND VERY MUCH MONEY AT ALL, IF ANYTHING, BUT THE OIL COMPANIES ARE GOING TO GO, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR OIL BACK.

>> SO I'M SEEING, I THINK ALSO REPUBLICAN SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM STANDING NEXT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND NODDING AND NODDING AND NODDING ABOUT THIS.

COULD YOU TELL US, BECAUSE BASICALLY THAT'S WHAT THE ANALYSIS IS, IT'S ABOUT OIL, IT'S ABOUT AN ASSET GRAB, IT'S ABOUT DOMINANCE.

WHAT IS THE SITUATION?

TELL US FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW, DID VENEZUELA STEAL AMERICAN OIL OR ITS CONTRACTS, OR ITS ABILITY THERE TO WORK?

WHAT IS TRUMP TALKING ABOUT?

>> I AM IN A LITTLE BIT OF CONFUSION AS THE REST OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THERE WERE --WHEN I WAS THERE, THERE WERE AMERICAN OIL COMPANY, CHEVRON, WORKING IN VENEZUELA, NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, SO LITTLE LOVE VENEZUELAN OIL WAS ACTUALLY COMING TO THE UNITED STATES.

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF OTHER INTERNATIONAL COMPANIES, INCLUDING FROM I THINK NORWAY, WORKING IN VENEZUELA.

SO I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT THIS ARGUMENT ABOUT STOLEN OIL IS ABOUT.

WHAT WORRIES ME, THOUGH, IS THE POINT YOU RAISED EARLIER ABOUT THE OPPOSITION SEEMING TO BE SIDELINED.

PEOPLE FORGET THAT JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO THERE WAS AN ELECTION IN VENEZUELA, AND ORDINARY VENEZUELANS IN LARGE NUMBERS RISK THEIR LIVES TO VOTE FOR EDMUNDO GONZALES, WHO I THINK SHOULD BE CONSIDERED THE PRESIDENT-ELECT, AND THE COALITION BUILT BY MARIA CORINA Machado.

AND NOW WE SEEM TO HAVE SIDELINED THEM AND SIDELINED THE VOICES OF ORDINARY VENEZUELANS, AND APPEAR TO BE WORKING WITH PART OF THE REGIME THAT KEPT VENEZUELA UNDER ITS THUMB.

I WAS STUNNED AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE BY THE REMARKS OF THE PRESIDENT AND OTHERS IN THE ROOM.

I DON'T FRANKLY UNDERSTAND IT.

IF THERE IS A STRATEGY HERE, MAYBE WE WILL SEE IT PLAY OUT BUT I DON'T SEE IT NOW.

>> THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO ASK YOU THE OBVIOUS QUESTION NOW.

YOU KNOW DELCY RODRIGUEZ, THE PERSON WHO WAS MADURO'S DEPUTY, YOU JUST MENTIONED, AND HAS BEEN SWORN IN AS INTERIM VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP AND RUBY OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAVE SAID ABOUT WORKING WITH HER, ALSO HOLDING IT, WHATEVER, FUTURE MILITARY INTERVENTION OVER HER HEAD IF SHE DOESN'T DO THEIR BIDDING.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HER?

WHY WOULD THEY DOUBLE DOWN ON HER?

AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN TRUMP SAYS WE ARE RUNNING VENEZUELA?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> WELL I'M GOING TO START WITH THE LAST PART OF THIS.

I AM CONFUSED BY THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT ABOUT US RUNNING VENEZUELA.

DOES THAT INCLUDE SECURITY?

ARE WE GOING TO TAKE OVER THE BANKING SYSTEM, THE JUSTICE SYSTEM?

YOU ALREADY SAW SECRETARY RUBIO WALK THAT BACK A LITTLE BIT AND SAY THAT THEY WERE IN FACT WORKING WITH DEL CITY RODRIGUEZ.

DELCY RODRIGUEZ WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY.

SHE IS PART OF THAT RULING ELITE.

MY GUESS IS SHE HAS WORKED SOME KIND OF DEAL WHERE SHE WILL EITHER BE ABLE TO STAY FOR A WHILE AS THEY WORK THROUGH A TRANSITION, PERHAPS LEAVE AFTER THE TRANSITION IS OVER.

SHE WAS PART OF THE RULING ELITES, THE COTERIE THAT WAS BENEFITING FROM ALL THE ILLEGAL ACTIVITY GOING ON AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF THE MADURO REGIME.

SO IT IS CLEAR THAT SHE'S PROBABLY GOING TO BENEFIT IF SHE IS ALLOWED TO TAKE THE ILL- GOTTEN GAINS FROM HER TIME THERE AND EITHER LEAVE AND GO SOMEWHERE OUTSIDE OF VENEZUELA, OR TRY TO STAY, ALTHOUGH I HAVE TO SAY I DON'T SEE A SCENARIO WHERE SOMEONE LIKE DELCY RODRIGUEZ CAN COMFORTABLY CONTINUE TO LIVE IN VENEZUELA AFTER ALL OF THIS.

>> OKAY.

SO LET'S JUST POSIT THAT THIS IS ALSO NOT REGIME CHANGE BECAUSE THE REGIME IS STILL IN CHARGE UNDER A PLIANT, APPARENTLY, CLIENT LIKE DELCY RODRIGUEZ, WHO TRUMP AND RUBIO EXPECT TO DO THEIR BIDDING.

WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH HER?

FOR INSTANCE, DOES SHE HAVE CONTROL OVER ALL THE DIFFERENT FACTIONS, THE POWERBROKERS OF THE MILITARY, THE MILITARY, THE INTERIOR MINISTER, ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT NEED TO BE IN LINE IF IT'S GOING TO BE THE U.S.

RUNNING IT THROUGH RODRIGUEZ AND PRESUMABLY THE REST OF THE MAJOR STAKEHOLDERS THERE.

>> I HAVE A FORMER COLLEAGUE WHO DESCRIBED THE REGIME AS KIND OF A HYDRA WITH DIFFERENT HEADS AND I THINK DELCY AND HER BROTHER JORGE RODRIGUEZ WERE ONE PART OF THE HYDRA.

I THINK PARTY LEADER DIO'S DALOT CABELLO, A FORMER MILITARY GUY, IS ANOTHER PART OF THE HYDRA, AND I THINK GENERAL VLADIMIR PADRINO LOPEZ IS ANOTHER PART OF THIS HYDRA.

THOSE TWO, THOSE THREE, DELCY RODRIGUEZ, PADRINO LOPEZ AND THE ESTADO CABELLO CONTINUE TO BE PART OF THE REGIME IN VENEZUELA.

CABELLO WAS LISTED IN THE INDICTMENT THAT CAME OUT.

WHY IS HE STILL THERE AND MADURO AND HIS WIFE, WHO ARE ALSO LISTED IN THE INDICTMENT, HERE IN NEW YORK?

>> JUST BICKLEY, DELCY, YOU MET QUESTIONS THAT NEED TO BE ANSWERED.

YOU MET HER.

WHAT WAS SHE LIKE?

TELL ME.

>> SHE IS FERVENTLY COMMITTED TO THE BOLIVAR IAN SYSTEM, WHATEVER THAT MEANS.

SHE WAS A CLEAR INSIDER, A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY, A POSITION YOU CAN'T GET UNLESS YOU'RE VERY CLOSE TO THE PRESIDENT, TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT, NICOLAS MADURO, DE FACTO PRESIDENT.

SHE IS CUNNING, VERY CLEVER.

I FOUND HER TO BE SMART BUT COMBATIVE.

SHE IS SOMEONE WHO DEFENDS AND WILL DEFEND THE REGIME.

>> REALLY, REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING.

SHE WILL DEFEND THE REGIME BUT SHE'S MEANT TO BE DOING SORT OF THE VICEROY'S BUSINESS, MAYBE THE UNITED STATES.

MAYBE THAT VICEROY IS SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON BUT HIS FINGERPRINTS ARE OVER QUITE A LOT OF THIS, AS WELL.

IT'S HIS BABY, ACCORDING TO MOST ANALYSTS.

AMBASSADOR ROBINSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION NOW WITH A MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITION.

ONE OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY FEATURES OF THIS WHOLE AFFAIR IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S WHOLESALE REJECTION OF VENEZUELA'S OPPOSITION.

SO WHAT PART DOES RESTORING DEMOCRACY TO THE NATION PLAY?

WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE LEADER MARIA CORINA Machado, WHOSE PARTY WAS WIDELY CREDITED WITH WINNING LAST YEAR 'S ELECTION, HERE'S WHAT TRUMP SET ON SATURDAY.

>> I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY TOUGH FOR HER TO BE THE LEADER.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE SUPPORT WITHIN OR THE RESPECT WITHIN THE COMFORT.

SHE'S A VERY NICE WOMAN BUT SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE RESPECT.

>> TOUGH WORDS.

OPPOSITION POLITICIAN DAVID Machado AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

DAVID SMOLINSKI, THANK YOU AND WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

WE LAST TALKED WHEN MARIA CORINA Machado HAD WON THE NOBEL PRIZE, OR IT HAD BEEN ANNOUNCED THAT SHE WAS WINNING IT AND SHE WAS ALL IN FOR TRUMP AND THE PRESSURE ON MADURO, AND GOING AGAINST QUITE A LOT OF LATIN AMERICAN POPULAR OR AT LEAST GOVERNMENTS WHO WERE SORT OF CRITICIZING THIS GUNBOAT DIPLOMACY, AND SHE'S BEEN REWARDED WITH HAVING BEEN, AS THEY SAY IN THE VERNACULAR, JUST BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> WELL CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING THE.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN MY COUNTRY.

THINGS SINCE JANUARY 3rd, DIFFERENT CHAPTERS HERE.

FIRST OF ALL, WE ARE GRATEFUL WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE U.S.

ADMINISTRATION, SECRETARY RUBIO, SECRETARY HEGSETH, FOR THE SMOOTH, CLEAN AND FAST OPERATION THAT HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA ON JANUARY 3rd.

WHERE FINALLY MADURO AND HIS WIFE ARE FACING JUSTICE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF VENEZUELANS SUPPORT AND THIS IS A HUGE STEP FOR A DEMOCRATIC AND ORDERLY TRANSITION.

REGARDING MARIA CORINA Machado AND PRESIDENT-ELECT EDMUNDO GONZALES OVER TO YOU, THEY HAVE THE OVERWHELMING SUPPORT OF VENEZUELANS.

THEY'VE GOT LEGITIMACY, NOT ONCE BUT TWICE, IN THE CASE OF MARIA CORINA Machado WAS ELECTED IN THE PRIMARY, AND THEN WHEN SHE ENDORSED RESIDENT ELECT EDMUNDO GONZALES, WE WON AND WE PROVED WE WON THE ELECTION ON JULY 28th 2024, DESPITE ELECTION TRANSPARENCY, IT WAS RIGGED BUT THAT WAS THE TOOL THAT WE USED TO MOBILIZE MILLIONS OF VENEZUELANS AND AS A COUNTRY WE NEEDED TO GET TO THIS POINT AND I DON'T HAVE ANY DOUBT THAT MARIA CORINA Machado WITH PRESIDENT-ELECT EDMUNDO REBUILDING OF VENEZUELA, FOR SURE.

>> OKAY.

I'M GLAD YOU DON'T HAVE ANY DOUBT AND LET'S REINFORCE WHAT YOU SAY.

CLEARLY A MAJORITY OF VENEZUELANS AND MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD INCLUDING THE VENEZUELAN DIASPORA ARE DELIGHTED ABOUT THIS, SHED NO TEARS FOR MADURO AND HIS WIFE BUT THIS IS NOT REGIME CHANGE AND I WANT TO DRILL DOWN WITH YOU ON WHAT AMBASSADOR ROBINSON JUST TOLD US, BECAUSE I NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON.

BUT FIRST THE ISSUE OF RESPECT AND I GUESS INFLUENCE WITH THE MILITARY.

THIS IS WHAT MRS.

Machado TOLD ME IN OCTOBER ABOUT THE SUPPORT SHE THOUGHT SHE COULD CALL ON IN VENEZUELA.

>> HE IS MORE ISOLATED THAN EVER.

NOT ONLY LOCALLY AND INTERNALLY.

HE DOESN'T EVEN TRUST THE ARMED FORCES OR THE POLICE.

THIS CRAZY IDEA WHICH IS ALL FAKE, ABOUT ARMING MILITIAS, IS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T TRUST THE MILITARY.

OVER 80% OF THE ARMED FORCES ARE WITH US.

AND HUMILIATION, AND THEY WANT TO BE PART OF A SECURE NATION.

>> SO SHE'S OBVIOUSLY TALKING ABOUT MADURO AND HOW HE'S HAVING TO TRY TO GET THESE MILITIAS AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

BUT JUST TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS MILITARY THING, AS THAT'S WHERE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SAID THAT SHE DOES NOT HAVE THE COMMAND OVER THEM, THE RESPECT OF THEM THE ABILITY TO STEP IN RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE TRUTH THERE, THE REALITY?

>> WELL MARIA Machado, ON THAT INTERVIEW THAT YOU JUST SHOWED, WAS TOTALLY RIGHT.

IF MADURO HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE MILITARY AND THE ARMED FORCES, HE WOULD'VE STAYED IN VENEZUELA.

HE WOULD'VE SURVIVED THE MILITARY OPERATION.

IT WAS PROVEN, SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE SAID FOR YEARS, THAT HIS INNER CIRCLE OF SECURITY WAS COMPOSED BY CUBAN AGENTS.

SO DEFINITELY HE WAS ISOLATED.

HE WAS TOTALLY BETRAYED AND HE'S FACING JUSTICE.

BY THE WAY, CHRISTIANE, I HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.

MADURO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR AT LEAST 20,000 ILLEGAL DETENTIONS.

20,000 INNOCENT VENEZUELANS THAT DIDN'T HAVE A RIGHT FOR A LAWYER, ATTORNEY, DIDN'T HAVE A RIGHT SOMETIMES TO HAVE A VISIT FROM FAMILIES.

THEY WERE COMPLETELY INNOCENT, JUST BECAUSE THEY THINK DIFFERENTLY.

THEY WERE ILLEGALLY DETAINED.

THE MAJORITY WERE PSYCHOLOGICALLY TORTURED AND PHYSICALLY TORTURED.

AND NOW IT'S FUNNY TO SEE MADURO AND CELIA WITH THE RIGHTS BEING RESPECTED.

THEY'RE HAVING FOOD IN THE JAIL.

THEY'RE HAVING ACCESS TO AN ATTORNEY AND THEY'RE HAVING THE COVERAGE OF THE NEWS.

SO THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WHAT WE HAVE COME THROUGH VENEZUELA AND THEY ARE STILL -- SORRY, THERE ARE STILL MORE THAN 800 POLITICAL PRISONERS THAT NEED TO BE RELEASED.

>> OKAY.

I HAVE NOT HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP OR SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO SAY ONE THING ABOUT THAT AND I'M JUST AMAZED, EVEN MORE AMAZED BY THAT, BY THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE NOT FOCUSED AND THEY ARE NOT USING THE WORD DEMOCRACY OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

MAYBE RUBIO A LITTLE BIT MORE, BUT PUTTING IT ON HOLD FOR NOW WHILE THEY DO I DON'T KNOW WHAT.

SO I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING TO DO.

AND FURTHERMORE, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THEM?

BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT, THERE ARE VERY FEW TEARS THAT ARE GOING TO BE SHED FOR MADURO.

BUT MADURO'S HENCHMEN AND WOMEN ARE STILL RUNNING THE COUNTRY.

YOU JUST HEARD THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR UNDER TRUMP 1.0 SAYING THAT.

THAT IS A FACT.

SO WHAT SENSE COULD WE MAKE OF THIS AND HOW YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION?

>> THE BEGINNINGS OF ANY TRANSITION ALWAYS ARE A BIT MESSY AND CONFUSING.

IT'S BEEN ONLY 60 HOURS SINCE THIS OPERATION HAPPENED IN MY COUNTRY.

I'M SURE SECRETARY RUBIO KNOWS VERY WELL WHO DELCY RODRIGUEZ HIS.

DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS PART OF THE SONS CARTEL.

SHE WAS A MASTERMIND TO OPEN VENEZUELA'S DOOR TO CHINA, RUSSIA, AND IRAN.

SHE HAS BEEN AN ENABLER TO ALLOW MONEY-LAUNDERING SCHEMES AND CORRUPTION FOR MADURO AND OBVIOUSLY IS SOMEONE THAT YOU CANNOT TRUST, AND SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY SUPPORT FROM VENEZUELANS.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS VERY CLEAR WHEN HE SAID THAT SHE COULD END EVEN WORSE THAN MADURO.

SO I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT THIS WILL AND WELL.

I DON'T HAVE ANY DOUBT AND I WANT TO REITERATE THAT MARIA CORINA Machado AND EDMUNDO GONZALES ARE GOING TO LEAD THE REBUILDING OF VENEZUELA.

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO CAN GUARANTEE A GREAT ALLIANCE WITH THE U.S., A GREAT ALLIANCE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA, A GREAT ALLIANCE WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION AND NATIONS BEYOND, AND THIS IS SOMETHING AGAIN THAT VENEZUELANS ARE CELEBRATING BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH SUFFERING FOR A LONG TIME.

>> A LOT OF SUFFERING, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, AND WE HAVE A REPORT LATER IN THE PROGRAM THAT WILL JUST REMIND PEOPLE OF THAT BUT EDMUNDO GONZALES, WHO IS CONSIDERED THE LEGITIMATE WINNER OF THE LATEST ELECTIONS, MADE A STATEMENT TODAY.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

HE APPEALED DIRECTLY TO THE VENEZUELAN ARMY OR THE MILITARY TO PUT HIM IN POWER WHERE HE BELONGS.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> AS PRESIDENT OF THE CALM AND CLEAR CALL TO THE NATIONAL ARMED FORCES AND THE STATE SECURITY FORCES.

YOUR DUTY IS TO UPHOLD AND ENFORCE THE SOVEREIGN MANDATE EXPRESSED ON JULY 28th, 2024.

AS COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, I REMIND YOU THAT YOUR LOYALTY IS TO THE CONSTITUTION, TO THE PEOPLE, AND TO THE REPUBLIC.

THIS IS A HISTORIC MOMENT AND WE ARE APPROACHING IT WITH SERENITY, CLARITY, AND DEMOCRATIC COMMITMENT.

>> SO THAT WAS SUNDAY, GIVING THE PRESIDENT EVEN MORE, PRESIDENT TRUMP EVEN MORE TIME TO REFLECT ON THAT BECAUSE IT WAS THE UNITED STATES WHO DECLARED AND BELIEVED THAT HIS PARTY --HE ACTUALLY WON THE ELECTIONS.

SO MY QUESTION TO YOU, YOU ARE IN WASHINGTON, YOU ARE A POLITICAL MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITION, WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO AND WHAT ARE YOU BEING TOLD?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP PUBLICLY SAYING ONE THING AND SECRETARY OF STATE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR AND ALL THE OTHER JOBS HE HAS, MARCO RUBIO IS SAYING SOMETHING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

UNDERSTAND?

FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO SEE A REAL DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION AND NOT MADURO 2.0 TAKING OVER?

>> HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., WE ARE HAVING CONSTANT COMMUNICATIONS WITH MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION, ALSO IN CONGRESS, WITH THE HOUSE, SENATE, REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, OBVIOUSLY ALSO WITH MULTILATERAL'S LIKE THE ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES, WHICH TOMORROW IS HAVING A SECURITY COUNCIL SESSION OF THE UNITED NATIONS, AND ALSO AGAIN I THINK THIS MESSAGE THAT PRESIDENT-ELECT EDMUNDO GONZALES ISSUED WAS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE CHRISTIANE, DON'T YOU THINK THE ARMED FORCES IN VENEZUELA AREN'T COMPLETELY DEMORALIZED?

THIS OPERATION WAS IMPECCABLE.

IT JUST LASTED THREE HOURS.

THERE WERE NO U.S.

SOLDIERS INJURED OR KILLED.

THEY FOUND MADURO AND CELIA FLORES VERY QUICKLY.

SO THEY ARE DEMORALIZED.

THE POINT THAT HE HAD TO ASK CUBA TO PROVIDE CUBAN AGENTS TO PROTECT HIM AND HIS WIFE.

SO VENEZUELANS ARE VERY CLEAR OF THE TYPE OF REGIME THAT WE HAVE FACED, THE TYPE OF BRUTAL DICTATOR THAT MADURO WAS, AND WE ARE WORKING VERY HARD, ESPECIALLY DURING THE LAST HOURS, TO SECURE A DEMOCRATIC AND ORDERLY TRANSITION AND TO CREATE CONDITIONS TO ALLOW MILLIONS OF AND IS WHELAN'S BACK, BECAUSE A LOT OF VENEZUELANS, THERE WERE ALMOST 9 MILLION VENEZUELANS WHO HAVE FLED DICTATORSHIP, ART READY TO GO BACK AND BE PART OF THE REBUILDING.

>> I FULLY HEAR YOU, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

CLEARLY THE MILITARY HAS BEEN IMMORTALIZED AND DEFANGED.

YOU'RE RIGHT.

MORNING TODAY BECAUSE THEY ADMITTED THAT SOME 30-PLUS MEMBERS OF THEIR OWN MILITARY OR SECURITY WERE CLOSE PROTECTION FOR MADURO.

THEY CLEARLY FAILED BUT MY QUESTION TO YOU IS STILL, DO YOU THINK --LET ME ASK YOU IN A DIFFERENT WAY, YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT AN ORDERLY TRANSITION BUT THERE'S BEEN NO REACH OUT THAT WE CAN TELL, NOR ANY VERBAL COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY BY PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SO DO YOU FEEL BETRAYED?

DO YOU FEEL THAT DELCY RODRIGUEZ AND THE OTHER GUYS WHO AMBASSADOR ROBINSON READ OUT, WILL THEY VOLUNTARILY LEAVE?

WILL THERE BE A FIGHT INTERNALLY?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT LOOKS LIKE?

>> AGAIN, DELCY RODRIGUEZ COULD END EVEN WORSE THAN NICOLAS MADURO AS PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID.

DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS A MEMBER OF THE SONS CARTEL, IS SOMEONE VERY CLOSE TO CHINA AND RUSSIA.

SHE'S A COMMUNIST.

SINCE SHE WAS VERY YOUNG.

SHE'S SOMEONE THAT NO ONE CAN TRUST.

MASTERMIND WITH HER BROTHER WHO IS THE SPEAKER OF THE LEGITIMATE CONGRESS IN VENEZUELA.

BOTH OF THEM WERE THE MASTERMIND OF THE RIGGED ELECTION SO SHE'S UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE AND ALSO SHE'S HAVING A LOT OF TENSIONS INSIDE BECAUSE THE REGIME IS BROKEN AND CRACKED AS EVER, BECAUSE NO ONE TRUSTS ON EACH OTHER SO AGAIN I THINK THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING.

LIKE EVERY TRANSITION, THE BEGINNINGS ARE MESSY BUT WE HAVE THE LEADERSHIP WITH CREDIBILITY AND LEGITIMACY TO LEAD THE REBUILDING.

>> LISTEN.

THANK YOU.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO HEAR FROM YOU, OBVIOUSLY IN THE OPPOSITION, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS, AND WHERE IT LEADS, AND WHAT THE DAY AFTER FOLEY BECOMES.

DAVID SMOLINSKI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

SO LET US TRY TO GET SOME MORE WHERE WILL THIS GO?

CUBA, COLOMBIA, MEXICO, IRAN AND GREENLAND.

THESE ARE THE FOUR COUNTRIES AND TERRITORY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS THREATENED SINCE STRIKING VENEZUELA.

ALL HE'S STATING THE, QUOTE, AMERICAN DOMINANCE IN THE WESTERN INDUSTRY WILL NEVER BE QUESTIONED AGAIN.

NATIONS, THE, AND SOME GOVERNMENTS ARE HITTING BACK WITH THE COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT GUSTAVO PETRO WARNING THAT HE HIMSELF WOULD TAKE UP ARMS IF THE UNITED STATES ATTACKS HIS COUNTRY AND MEXICAN PRESIDENT CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM CONDEMNING AMERICAN THREATS AND RECENT ACTION AGAINST HER OWN NATION.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> THE HISTORY OF WHAT AMERICA IS CLEAR AND COMPELLING.

INTERVENTION HAS NEVER BROUGHT DEMOCRACY.

IT IS NEVER GENERATED WELL- BEING OR LASTING STABILITY.

ONLY THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES CAN THEIR OWN FUTURE, THE CYBER PATH, EXERCISE SOVEREIGNTY OVER THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES, AND FREELY DEFINE THEIR FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

>> SO WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS FOR REGIONAL AND GLOBAL ORDER?

THE FORMER MEXICAN FOREIGN JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

YOU'VE HEARD THE OTHER INTERVIEWS AND I'M NOT SURE WHETHER YOU HAVE ANY MORE CLARITY TO OFFER US WHO ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THIS GOES NEXT AND WHAT WAS THE ACTUAL AIM OF THIS OPERATION, AND WHAT MIGHT BE FURTHER AIMS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

HAVE YOU FORMULATED THAT IN YOUR STRATEGIC CALCULUS YET?

>> IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DO SO, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE AS AMBASSADOR ROBINSON, WHO I KNOW AND ADMIRE, SAID, IT'S VERY CONFUSING.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF RATIONALES THAT ARE BEING PUT FORTH BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS TO WHAT THEY DID THIS FOR, WHAT THEY WANT, AND WHAT THE FUTURE LOOKS LIKE, NOT JUST FOR VENEZUELA BUT FOR OTHER COUNTRIES.

IF YOU TAKE SERIOUSLY, AND I THINK WE SHOULD, THE NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY DOCUMENT PUBLISHED IN DECEMBER, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STATEMENTS IN DAYS ABOUT RESTORING AMERICAN DOMINANCE IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE, THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO IS TO DEFINE THE HEMISPHERE THE WAY IT IS.

AMERICAN DOMINANCE IN TERMS OF ACCESS TO RESOURCES, GEOPOLITICAL CLOSENESS, SUPPORT, IDEOLOGICAL AFFINITY AND TO A LARGE EXTENT HAS BEEN THE CASE IN WHAT WE CALL THE CARIBBEAN BASIN FOR WELL OVER 100 YEARS NOW WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CUBA.

MEXICO'S TRADE, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC'S TRADE, SALVATORI AND TRADE ARE ALL WITH THE UNITED STATES.

TOURISM IS WITH THE UNITED STATES.

FOREIGN INVESTMENT THESE COUNTRIES IS AMERICAN.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT DOMINANCE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP REFERRED TO ALL HAS ALREADY EXISTED FOR MANY, MANY YEARS IN THIS NORTHERN PART, LET'S SAY, OF LATIN AMERICA, THE CARIBBEAN BASIN.

NOW CHINA HAS BECOME THE MAIN TRADING PARTNER OF BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, CHILE, PERU, BOLIVIA, PARAGUAY AND URUGUAY AND THE MAIN AND ESTHER IN BRAZIL, ARGENTINA AND CHILE.

SO WHAT IS PRESIDENT TRUMP GOING TO DO?

IS HE GOING TO FORCE LOVE TO STOP SELLING SOYBEANS AND IRON ORE TO CHINA?

HOW DOES HE INTEND TO ACHIEVE THAT?

I'M CONFUSED.

I REALLY AM MYSTIFIED.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I DO THINK IF THAT'S WHAT HE'S SEEKING TO DO, HE'S BITING OFF A LOT MORE THAN HE CAN CHEW.

>> SO HE HAS NOT ACTUALLY MENTIONED CHINA IN THE AFTERMATH OF ALL OF THIS, BUT AS YOU SAY, CHINA IS DEEMED BY THE ADMINISTRATION AND SEVERAL ADMINISTRATIONS AS THE GREAT COMPETITOR AND CALENDAR FOR THE U.S.

AND HIS ACTIONS HAVE SORT OF DEMONSTRATED THAT HE WANTS TO PUT CHINA BACK IN ITS BOX WITH HIS TARIFFS AND THIS AND THAT, BUT IT'S REALLY DEEPLY ENTRENCHED CHINA IS RIGHT NOW IN THIS WESTERN HEMISPHERE, NOT IN ITS OWN BACKYARD, BUT IN THIS WESTERN HEMISPHERE WHERE TRUMP APPEARS TO BE SAYING THAT WE HAVE THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE, CHINA HAS WHATEVER, THE PACIFIC, AND RUSSIA HAS RUSSIA AND IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT LIKES WITH EUROPE.

YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING THAT NOT EVEN IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE IS CHINA BEING DEALT WITH.

>> WELL CERTAINLY NOT IN WHAT WAS GENERALLY CALLED SOUTH AMERICA OR MORE SPECIFICALLY THE SOUTHERN CONE.

WHAT TRUMP HAS BEEN SAYING ABOUT AMERICAN DOMINANCE IS TRUE AND HAS BEEN TRUE FOR MANY YEARS IN THE CARIBBEAN REASON, BUT I DON'T SEE HOW HE CAN ACHIEVE ANY OF THIS IN SOUTH AMERICA, IN TERMS OF THE MUNRO DOCTRINE AND NOT ALLOWING FOREIGN POWERS TO BE PRESENT.

CHINA IS PRESENT ALREADY AND I GOING TO CONVINCE PRESIDENT LULA OR EVEN PRESIDENTS MILLET OF ARGENTINA, WHO IS HIS BIG BUDDY, TO STOP SELLING SOYBEANS, ARGENTINE SOYBEAN TO CHINA.

WHO DOES HE WANT MILEI TO SELL HIS SOYBEANS TO?

CAN'T SELL THEM TO THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES IS THE BIGGEST PRODUCER OF SOYBEANS IN THE WORLD.

>> LET'S JUST MOVE BEYOND THAT DISCONNECT WHICH YOU POINTED OUT TO ANOTHER REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE.

YOUR OWN PRESIDENT WAS ON NATIONAL TELEVISION, BROADCAST INTERNATIONALLY TODAY, TALKING ABOUT THIS SITUATION BECAUSE MEXICO HAS RECEIVED FRESH THREATS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

PRESIDENT P PRO OF COLOMBIA HAS.

MARCO RUBIO, IT'S NOT EVEN THINLY VEILED.

IT IS A DIRECT THREAT, IF I WAS IN CUBA AND MEMBER OF A GOVERNMENT IN CUBA, I WOULD BE WORRIED.

I'M PARAPHRASING RIGHT NOW.

OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IS NEXT?

DO YOU THINK THEY WILL BUILD ON THIS MILITARY SUCCESS AND MOVE ON TO CUBA AND MEXICO AND COLOMBIA AND ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES HE'S MENTIONED?

>> I THINK THERE ARE THREE DIFFERENT CASES, CHRISTIANE.

IN THE CASE OF CUBA, I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO WILL DO EVERYTHING HE CAN TO PRESSURE, BRING GREATER PRESSURE TO BEAR ON THE CUBAN TO LEADERSHIP, WITH THE HOPE THAT IT WILL FINALLY AND AT LONG LAST FOLD.

I'M NOT SURE HE WILL SUCCEED IN THAT MANY AMERICAN RESIDENTS HAVE TRIED AND HAVE FAILED BUT I THINK THAT CERTAINLY IS COMING NEXT.

THE CASE OF COLOMBIA I THINK IS MORE RHETORICAL THAN ANYTHING ELSE, BUT PROBABLY WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SECRETARY RUBIO WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS THAT IN NEXT YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, THE EXTREME RIGHT, VERY POWERFUL, WINGBACK THE PRESIDENCY AND ABANDON THE PETRO PINK WAVE MEMBERSHIP FOR COLOMBIA.

THE CASE OF MEXICO IS MORE COMPLICATED BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ACHIEVED MOST OF WHAT HE WANTED WITH MEXICO UNDER PRESIDENT SHEINBAUM.

SHE HAS DONE PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING HE HAS ASKED FOR ON MIGRATION, ON DRUGS, ON SECURITY, ET CETERA, ON COMBATING THE CARTELS.

NOW WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS MEXICO IS RUN BY CARTELS, IT'S PARTLY TRUE, IT'S PARTLY FALSE, BUT HE AND SECRETARY RUBIO ARE VERY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT WHAT SHEINBAUM IS DOING IN TERMS OF DESTROYING LABS, SEIZING DRUGS, SEIZING PRECURSOR CHEMICALS ENTERING FROM CHINA, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

WHAT THEY PROBABLY HAVE NOT ASKED HER YET TO DO, AND THEY MAY DO SO NOW, IS TO HAND OVER THE CARTELS IN MEXICO, WHICH ALL HAPPEN TO BE OR MOST HAPPEN TO BE OF HER OWN PARTY OR HER PREDECESSOR'S GOVERNMENT, AND THAT INCLUDES GOVERNORS OF THE STATES OF SINALOA, SONORA, MICHOACAN, TAMAULIPAS.

IT INCLUDES THE FORMER SECRETARY OF THE NAVY UNDER LOPEZ OVER A DOOR.

IT INCLUDES MANY OTHER MORENA PARTY POLITICIANS WHO SO FAR HAVE GOTTEN A FREE PASS FROM SHEINBAUM AND FROM TRUMP.

MAYBE NOW THEY WILL --TRUMP AND RUBIO WILL PRESSURE MUCH MORE ON THAT FRONT.

>> REALLY, REALLY FASCINATING.

SOMETHING ELSE WE NEED TO WATCH.

AND THEN ONE LAST QUESTION.

YOU KNOW YOU HEARD FROM ALL OUR INTERVIEWEES THAT THE CURRENT CROP IN CHARGE AND WITH THE BLESSING OF THE UNITED STATES AND VENEZUELA ARE MADURO LOYALIST AND VERY POWERFUL MADURO LOYALIST.

SO WHY DO YOU THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS CHOSEN TO WORK WITH THEM INSTEAD OF EMPOWERING THE OPPOSITION?

>> I THINK THAT --BUT I'M REALLY JUST GUESSING HERE, I THINK THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN MORE AND BETTER WITH DELCY AND JORGE RODRIGUEZ, BROTHER AND SISTER TEAM, MAYBE NOT ENTIRELY WITH DIOSDADO CABELLO.

I DON'T KNOW IF HIS DAYS ARE NUMBERED AND UNLIKE WITH MARIA CARINO Machado.

THE QUESTION FOR ME, CHRISTIANE, THAT YOUR LAST GUEST ACTUALLY DID NOT REALLY RESPOND TO IS WHEN WILL MARIA CARINO GO BACK TO VENEZUELA?

APPARENTLY THE AIRSPACE HAS NOW BEEN OPENED AND SO SHE IS PROBABLY ABLE TO RETURN IF SHE WANTS TO.

IS THE NEW VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT GOING TO ALLOW HER TO RETURN?

ARE THE UNITED STATES GOING TO STOP HER FROM RETURNING OR HELP HER TO RETURN?

WILL THERE BE ELECTIONS?

IF THERE ARE ELECTIONS, SHE WILL WIN OVERWHELMINGLY AND THIS ENTIRE PROJECT OF WORKING WITH THE BAD GUYS, WITH THE RODRIGUEZ BROTHERS, ET CETERA, IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

SO EITHER THERE ARE NO ELECTIONS OR THEY BAN HER FROM RUNNING FOR ELECTION LIKE MADURO DID.

THAT'S GOING TO GET COMPLICATED.

ANOTHER QUESTION WHICH IS INTERESTING IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE HUNDREDS OR TWO, THREE, FOUR THOUSAND CUBAN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY PERSONNEL IN VENEZUELA?

WE KNOW THAT 32 CUBAN SECURITY PEOPLE DIED IN A FIREFIGHT ON SATURDAY, BUT THERE'S SEVERAL HUNDRED IF NOT SEVERAL THOUSAND MORE.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM?

DO THEY STAY THERE OR ARE THEY SENT BACK TO CUBA?

OR ARE THEY THROWN IN JAIL BY WHAT HAPPENS WITH THEM?

I DON'T REALLY KNOW.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTIONS PENDING HERE, CHRISTIANE, WHICH WE JUST DON'T HAVE ANSWERS TO GET.

>> WE JUST DO NOT AND THAT'S WHY WE ARE REALLY PLEASED TO HAVE ALL OF YOU AND YOU TO WRAP THIS UP FOR US TODAY AND LAY THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL WEEKS AND MONTHS OF OUR REPORTING, TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT IS THIS, IS IT A DOCTRINE, IS IT GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND MORE SPECIFICALLY, JORGE CASTANEDA, WHAT VENEZUELA IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US.

QUITE FRANKLY, AS WE'VE HEARD THROUGHOUT THIS PROGRAM, VENEZUELANS DESERVE AND A CLAMOR FOR A BETTER LIFE, IN WHAT IS, AFTER ALL, ONE OF THE RICHEST NATIONS IN THE WORLD.

THEY'VE BEEN PLAGUED BY RISING POVERTY AND SYSTEMS COLLAPSE FOR MORE THAN A DECADE.

THE COUNTRY'S HEALTHCARE CRISIS IS A STANDOUT EXAMPLE, DUE TO A LACK OF ECONOMIC SUPPORT FROM MADURO'S GOVERNMENT AS WELL AS SANCTIONS FROM ABROAD.

IT'S BEEN QUITE RARE FOR INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS TO CRUMBLING INFRASTRUCTURE OR FOR LOCAL JOURNALISTS TO REPORT UNDER MADURO WITHOUT FEAR OF RETRIBUTION.

BUT BACK IN 2019, CORRESPONDENT PAULA NEWTON FROM CNN WAS ABLE TO GET INSIDE A VENEZUELAN PEDIATRIC HOSPITAL TO CHRONICLE THE WIDESPREAD SUFFERING CAUSED BY A LACK OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND FUNDS FOR HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS.

HEARS THAT REPORT.

>> TAKE A CLOSE LOOK.

THIS IS AN EMERGENCY PEDIATRIC WARD IN VENEZUELA.

OVERCROWDED, UNBEARABLY HOT, RUNDOWN, RUDIMENTARY TREATMENT EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK.

AND FROM NEARLY EVERY BED AND EVERY CHILD, A HARROWING STORY.

LIKE THIS ONE.

NATALIA ROJAS HAS NOT NAMED HER BABY GIRL, BORN IN EARLY MARCH, DURING THE FIRST COUNTRYWIDE BLACKOUT.

SHE'S RESTLESS, FEVERISH.

DOCTORS SUSPECT MENINGITIS BUT THERE'S NO WAY TO FIND OUT.

SHE NEEDS SEVERAL TESTS, NATALIA TELLS ME, AND A SCAN OF HER LITTLE HEAD, AS SHE PUTS IT, BUT IT CAN'T BE DONE HERE.

SCANS, X-RAYS, THE BLOOD LAB HAVEN'T BEEN OPERATIONAL FOR MONTHS.

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO TWO PEDIATRIC WARDS BY OUTRAGED MEDICAL STAFF WHO SAY THEY CAN TAKE NO MORE.

THERE ARE SHORTAGES OF EVERY MEDICINE AND MEDICAL SUPPLY.

NOT EVEN THE SPECIAL FORMULA THAT MALNOURISHED IS SO DESPERATELY IN NEED OF.

AS WE WALK THROUGH ABANDONED WORDS WITH DECREPIT EQUIPPED, THERE IS NO SANITATION, LITTLE WATER, LITTLE POWER.

>> THESE CONDITIONS YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ARE NORMAL IN VENEZUELA.

WE HAVE SEEN THEM AGAIN AND AGAIN IN HOSPITAL AFTER HOSPITAL.

>> AND ELVIS.

BRUSHFIRES JUST OUTSIDE THE HOSPITAL.

WITH NO WATER, THERE LEFT TO EXHAUST THEMSELVES, SMOKE AND ASH COMING IN THROUGH THE WINDOWS.

CNN CONTACTED HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATORS AND THE VENEZUELAN HEALTH MINISTRY ABOUT THE CONDITIONS AND DID NOT RECEIVE A REPLY.

WHEN WE HAVE AN EMERGENCY, SHE TELLS ME, WE HAVE NO WAY OF RESOLVING THE SITUATION, IN MOST CASES.

WE HAVE TO IMPROVISE.

AND DOCTORS HERE TELL US THEY'RE AT WAR IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE THIS PEDIATRICIAN SAYS SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BE IDENTIFIED FOR FEAR OF REPRISALS.

SHE SAYS DOCTORS AND OTHER MEDICAL STAFF ARE THREATENED WITH DISMISSAL AND SOMETIMES EVEN PHYSICALLY ABUSED IF THEY SPEAK OUT.

IT'S BEEN THREE YEARS SINCE DR.

RONNIE RISKED HIS CAREER TO GIVE A LOOK INSIDE A CRUMBLING VENEZUELAN HOSPITAL.

SINCE, HE HAS NOT ONLY BEEN FIRED FOR SPEAKING OUT BUT JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO HE TWEETED THAT AUTHORITIES HAD COME TO ARREST HIM AFTER HE MET WITH A VISITING YOU IN MISSION TO RAISE THE ALARM ABOUT HOSPITAL CONDITIONS.

HE IS STILL IN HIDING.

>> IT'S DEFINITELY BECOME WORSE.

>> Reporter: DR.

ALEJANDRA CRESPO IS A FRIEND OF DR.

RONNIE'S AND HE SAYS THERE CAN BE NO DEBATE.

VENEZUELA'S HEALTH SYSTEM HAS COLLAPSED.

>> YOU CAN ASK THE MOTHERS AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LIE TO YOU.

TO HAVE THEIR KIDS DYING IN A HOSPITAL BED BECAUSE OF A LACK OF MEDICINE, AND THEY CAN DO NOTHING.

>> Reporter: MEDICAL STAFF TELL INTO BATTLE EVERY DAY, KNOWING THEY WILL LOSE.

WEARY PATIENTS TO PLEAD FOR THEIR CHILDREN'S CARE.

AS VENEZUELA'S POLITICAL CONFLICT RAGES, THIS REMAINS IT'S FRONT LINE.

>> AND JUST TO SAY FIRST, THANK YOU TO PAULA FOR THAT REVIEW AND REPORT FROM BACK THEN BUT EVEN NOW, IN THE WAKE OF THE REMOVAL OF MADURO, PEOPLE WHO ARE CELEBRATING HIS REMOVAL TOLD REPORTERS THAT THEY STILL HAVE THESE TERRIBLE DIFFICULTIES WITH MEDICINE AND FOOD, HOSPITALS AND ALL THE REST OF IT, SO THAT'S A HUGE JOB THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED FOR THE PEOPLE OF VENEZUELA.

FINALLY, WHILE THIS WEEKEND 'S EVENTS MARK ANOTHER TURNING POINT IN AMERICA'S OFTEN TURBULENT RELATIONS WITH VENEZUELA, IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME.

THE U.S.

TRIED TO OVERTHROW MADURO'S PREDECESSOR, HUGO CHAVEZ, BACK IN APRIL 2002.

NOW WHEN I SPOKE TO PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO SHORTLY AFTER HE SUCCEEDED CHAVEZ IN 2014, I ASKED HIM ABOUT WHAT HE THOUGHT AMERICA WANTED FROM HIS COUNTRY.

QUITE PRESENT, IN RETROSPECT.

>> WITH THE GOVERNMENT, OR THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT, IT IS WELL KNOWN, IN THE CLASSIFIED PENTAGON PAPERS OR THE CIA, THE STATE DEPARTMENT, WIKILEAKS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, AND SNOWDON'S PAPER, IS SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE OF U.S.

AGENCIES, OF HOW YOU HAVE CLOSE SPIES TO PUT AN END TO THIS REVOLUTION, TO DESTROY PRESIDENT CHAVEZ.

WE WANT TO HAVE A NEW TYPE OF RELATIONS BASED ON RESPECT.

EQUALITY AMONG STATES.

AND THE RECOGNITION OF WHAT WE ARE TODAY.

>> DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THEY WANT TO RECONQUER LATIN AMERICA?

>> OF COURSE.

OF COURSE I DO.

THEY WANT TO --FIRST OF ALL, THE ECONOMIC --THEY HAVE THE POLITICAL CONTROLS THROUGH POLITICAL CLASSES AND ELITE THAT GOVERN SOME OF OUR COUNTRIES, AND THEY WANT TO HAVE POLITICAL CONTROL BECAUSE HAVE A PROJECT, TO ESTABLISH THE HEGEMONY AND THE CONTROL.

AND IN THE WORLD OF TODAY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

>> YOU HAVE A MESSAGE FOR THE U.S.?

THERE'S BEEN EXPELLING OF DIPLOMATS.

YOU DID IT, THEY DID IT.

NOW YOU'VE NOMINATED MR.

MAX ARLISS AS YOUR NEW AMBASSADOR TO WASHINGTON.

WHAT YOU HOPE TO SEE?

WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THE UNITED STATES?

>> MY MESSAGE IS RESPECT, DIALOGUE, THAT WE OVERCOME THE VISION THEY HAVE OF OUR COUNTRY.

PRECISELY I MADE A DECISION.

TO APPOINT A NEW AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.. A MAN THAT I TRUST.

GREAT DIPLOMAT THAT KNOWS THE WORLD, KNOWS VERY WELL THE U.S., AND I'M CERTAIN THAT HE WILL BE VERY HELPFUL TO ESTABLISH NEW LEVELS OF RELATIONS.

DON'T GO TO A STALEMATE, TO A BLIND ALLEY REGARDING VENEZUELA AND LATIN AMERICA.

OUR MESSAGE TO THOSE RULING THE U.S.

IS RESPECT VENEZUELA, RESPECT LATIN AMERICA, AND ESTABLISH NEW LEVELS OF RELATION.

>> DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN ANYTIME SOON, AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.