>> He is the man in the middle this week on "Firing Line."

>> Mr. President, I want you to be president of the United States, not the divided states.

[ Crowd cheering ] >> In a country so polarized, Senator Joe Manchin may now be the most influential senator in the new Congress.

>> I've never looked at a Republican or a Democrat problem.

I just looked at a problem that we had.

>> The most conservative of the 50 Democrats in the Senate.

He is now the critical swing vote.

After a deadly insurrection... [ Indistinct shouting ] ...a second impeachment... >> The motion to reconsider is laid upon the table.

>> ...and with a new administration just days away, what does Senator Joe Manchin say now?

>> "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by... Corporate funding is provided by... >> On Tuesday, a day before President Trump's second impeachment, I had a conversation with Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, a moderate who urged Democrats to slow down their impeachment efforts in order to build bipartisan support.

First, that conversation.

And later in this episode, Senator Manchin returns for an important update on how he sees the situation now, after 10 Republicans joined every Democrat in the House of Representatives by voting to impeach.

Senator Joe Manchin, welcome to "Firing Line."

>> Good to be with you, Margaret.

Thank you for having me.

>> You've said that while there is no doubt President Trump should be impeached, it doesn't make any common sense to pursue this course of action, since a trial wouldn't start until after President Trump leaves office.

>> Yeah.

>> And you've even called impeachment ill-advised.

Is that still your position?

>> I really do.

I feel very strongly about that.

And, you know, and I respect all of my other colleagues on both sides of the aisle, how they may feel.

The bottom line is we have to start healing our country.

We have to start healing it.

And that's not giving the President or any of his accomplices a pass at all.

I think there's gonna be the judicial system get very much involved in this investigation.

There could be criminal charges coming to many people, including the President even, if they've broken the law.

And I think all that will come due.

But, you know, you just can't jump to conclusions and expedite something from a political position, because all it does, further entrenches the people who believe one way or the other.

>> Let me ask you a question.

Do you agree that President Trump incited an insurrection at our Capitol?

>> Absolutely.

No doubt at all in my mind.

But there's so many people that don't believe that until we let the facts come out.

That's what I'm saying.

I have not a bit of doubt in my mind that I was in the Senate when all this happened.

I was in the Senate chambers when the attack came, and we had no knowledge until we were taken down into the safe room, and then we watched on monitors what was happening.

Then the gravity of this hit us.

This is total insurrection.

And sedition basically is what they were trying to do.

And with that, people have to be accountable and pay the price for that.

But the way we're doing it right now, Margaret, you're basically saying, "Okay, we're going to have an impeachment trial."

But we need 19 Republicans.

>> Uh-huh.

>> We don't have 19 -- >> It's true, although you are getting more Republicans than you had last time.

>> If you give me a count of 19, I'd say let's go tonight.

You don't have 19.

You're not going to have 19.

>> Listen, you've said that perhaps if as time passes and more facts come out, a more clear picture will be understood by the public about what happened, at that time perhaps, there is an idea that Majority Whip Jim Clyburn suggested that perhaps the House could impeach and the Senate could wait to move forward with impeachment, prioritizing first confirming President Biden's Cabinet.

>> Yeah, we don't have the luxury of waiting.

If they send it to us, we have to act immediately.

>> What if Nancy Pelosi waits to send it, too?

>> That would be the greatest thing she could do right now.

If it would appease her people, Democrats who are totally committed -- and I understand their commitment.

I'm as outraged as they are, and I want to get to the bottom of it.

But I said basically, "Give us three or four months."

If you go ahead and impeach now, your intention to impeach is fine.

If you want to go ahead and convict, let us build the evidence up so the American people believe and we don't have more division.

So give us the three or four months hiatus before you send it to us.

Allow us, the judicial system, to do its job.

Every day, there's more video coming out.

And I can assure you, as people that were involved in that insurrection are arrested, and they're interrogated, and they start talking, we're gonna find out an awful lot more.

>> We will never give up.

We will never concede.

>> Look at the speeches he gave.

Look at Rudy Giuliani.

Look at Donald Jr. Look at all of these people who've spoken.

Look at the congresspeople.

Can you imagine as a Senator, sitting there and watching what happened to our Capitol?

People lost their lives.

We came back, and we were determined not to leave.

These thugs aren't running us out.

And then Josh Hawley stands up again and objects, after we just asked, "Please, consider what you're doing to your country."

>> You had a personal conversation with him in the bowels of the Capitol.

>> Yeah.

>> What was that conversation like?

>> I looked at Josh, and I said, "Josh, you know, you have a right to do what you're doing, but think of what's happening, what you're seeing on the monitors.

Think about basically our country.

And this is not about politics --" >> What did he say?

>> There wasn't much conversation back and forth on that.

He listened to me, and I could tell that it was weighing on him.

And I was hoping that we were able to maybe change his mind to go up there and stop his objections.

>> 39% of Americans believe the election that just occurred "was rigged."

>> I want to see all of those people that made the objection and stuck with their objection, were you sending our fundraising requests while this was going on, the insurrection to our Capitol?

Tell me that.

>> I mean, Senator Ted Cruz was doing exactly what you said.

He was asking for security for himself and his staff while sending out fundraisers to fundraise and profit off of the insurrection that was happening under your nose.

>> Totally unconscionable how any of them can live with themself, knowing that because of their objections, there's five people lost their lives, first.

Next of all, insurrection.

Next of all, the intent of sedition.

Everything that we talk about, the who we are and what we protect -- and I keep thinking back to Benjamin Franklin saying, "Gentlemen --" They said, "Do we have a republic or a monarchy?"

He says, "You have a republic if you can hold on to it."

And I'm determined to fight like the dickens to hold on to it, Margaret.

>> Senator, I just want to clarify one thing I've heard you say in other interviews.

You've said, "We have to let the criminal prosecutions happen and the judicial process play out."

Do you mean with respect to the participants of the insurrection, or do you mean with respect to President Trump himself?

>> Everybody involved.

I've always believed this.

There's no person above the law, not one person in America.

If you've committed a crime, and that crime can be proven with evidence, then you should pay the price, and the punishment should be the same for all.

>> Let me ask you, then, given that President Trump came to popularity in part from a chant, "lock her up," about Hillary Clinton, is prosecuting our political opponents a good precedent to set?

>> I don't know about precedent, but basically, people break the law, I don't care on what side of the aisle, why should we be held to any different standard of the law?

Madam Justice has that blindfold on, and the rule of law is who we are.

It's the bedrock of our society.

>> Well, there's talk, though, that President Trump might pardon many people who were involved in the riots at the Capitol last week, and even then pardon himself.

>> Yeah.

>> What is your view of this?

>> That would be such a shame, a travesty -- a travesty to the rule of law, a travesty basically that the Constitution -- I mean, we also have amendment.

We have the 14th Amendment Section 3, which was put in place after the Civil War for a purpose, for sedition, that those people should never hold public office.

They should never have the public microphone.

They should never be allowed to be in a position of power or of decision-making or purpose, because they're gonna serve themselves.

>> Since you mentioned it, Senator, let me read you what the 14th Amendment Section 3 says.

Would you support, Senator, the removal of Senator Hawley and Senator Cruz through the 14th Amendment Section 3?

>> Well, they should look, absolutely.

Basically, that should be a consideration.

You know, he understands that.

Ted's a very bright individual, and I get along fine with Ted.

But what he did was totally outside of the realm of our responsibilities or our privileges that we have.

>> Can I ask you a few questions about some of your other colleagues who had a change of heart, actually?

>> Mm-hmm.

>> You've applauded the seven Senators who withdrew their objections after the Capitol siege.

Do you think that there are individuals who are in your body that really, truly had a genuine change of heart, or do you think they didn't believe in the objections in the first place, they were doing it for political reasons?

>> Oh, I'm totally convinced it was done because of political reasons.

This was all politically motivated.

This was calculated.

They had their constituents saying -- if you come from a state like my state.

My state is one of the reddest states in the nation now.

And I respect all the people that says, "Please.

He didn't do that."

I said, "Well, let's see the facts."

I'm still a person who believes in the facts -- not your facts or my facts, but the facts.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And that's why I appreciate public broadcasting so much.

I believe that it's unfiltered.

I believe you all state it the way it is.

"This is the facts.

Make your decisions."

And we need more of that.

But I believe that all of my colleagues truly made a decision that was politically best for them and expedient for them.

It was not what they believed to be true or false.

>> You called for Twitter to suspect President Trump's accounts hours before they did, permanently, last Friday.

>> Days before they did.

>> The President has been now banned from Facebook.

Parler, an app that is preferred by some conservatives, has been booted off of Apple, Amazon, and Google.

The PGA has pulled its 2022 championship from the Trump National golf course in New Jersey, and Simon & Schuster has dropped Josh Hawley's book.

Do you support all these examples of deplatforming?

>> I do.

I really do.

I think there's a responsibility they all have.

These are private platforms.

These are private individuals.

These are basically publicly owned companies.

And thank goodness they're pushing back now.

You know, change comes -- the markets change because of the pressure that's put on.

So maybe this will give my Republican colleagues some support that they can be free.

You know, the truth will set you free.

Maybe they can break the bonds, these chains that they have, of captivity within the Republican ranks, that they're afraid they're going to be primaried or there's gonna be challenges or things that they have to deal with that they're rather not.

>> What is your response to those who fear that by deplatforming President Trump, you further embolden the kind of people who stormed the Capitol and those who are sympathetic with their movement?

>> That's the reason I say we need the time.

That is exactly -- you put it better than I can.

That's exactly.

And we will embolden, and it will happen.

It will entrench them more, okay?

And the true believers will be even stronger and using more radical tactics maybe.

We just want the facts to come out that everyone who felt the same that we do, we have to do this to save our country.

>> There are calls online for Trump supports to "come armed" to the U.S. Capitol and to state capitols around the country before inauguration.

How prepared is the country, both at the federal and state level, to deal with this?

>> That will be the biggest mistake they ever make.

If they do that, that will be a big mistake from that standpoint, because we will be prepared, I can assure you.

I've been speaking to the different officials around that have responsibility, and you'll never see that happen what you saw happen Wednesday.

>> Should these groups be permitted to protest at the Washington Memorial?

>> Peaceful protests, no violence, no guns, no -- you know, absolutely, everyone has that right.

Everyone has that right.

And even the people that marched on the Capitol that day that didn't break across the barriers, that didn't enter the Capitol, I have no problem there.

I have no problem with that.

I have a problem with anybody that entered that Capitol, broke through a barrier.

Then they broke the law, and they should pay a penalty.

>> Let's talk about what's gonna happen when President-elect Biden becomes the President.

He has some legislative items on his agenda.

One of them is $2,000 stimulus checks, you're not in favor of just everybody getting $2,000 checks, Senator.

Why is that?

>> I just think that basically, we have to look at are we helping the people that really need help?

A lot of people -- I wasn't affected.

A lot of people in my family weren't affected.

They still have the paycheck.

And they have said that to me.

I've had numerous people come up.

They won't say it in public, 'cause they don't want anybody to get mad at them.

But they'll say, "Joe, I didn't need this.

I'm sure that somebody else needed it more than I needed it," you know?

And the people that don't, in areas that received checks, a lot of them will just basically put it in savings.

If those checks are meant to stimulate the economy, let's make sure we're getting it to the targeted areas.

That's all I'm saying.

>> Let's go back to this idea of coming together.

>> Okay.

>> You said we need to be coming together as a country to heal and find a common path forward.

And you're considered among the most conservative Democrats in Congress, and the Senate is gonna be split 50/50.

What are the legislative priorities that you think would happen with bipartisan momentum?

>> First of all, let's vaccinate.

Warp speed in vaccination.

Let's protect people and give them confidence they're not going to get deathly ill or lose their life.

And then start returning to some normality and be able to stimulate the economy.

I gave the President credit for pushing the private-sector pharmaceuticals to develop a vaccine and come to market as quickly as they said.

First of all, they said it couldn't be done, and it was done.

Let's give credit where credit is due.

>> Yeah.

Absolutely.

>> Now, where I think they failed is basically getting it out and how they distributed it and letting every state sign their own plan.

We have the National Guard.

We have many federal facilities that we can be much more, much more rapid in getting the vaccine in people's arms.

When you ask me about how we're gonna do about the economy and things of that sort, you know, I went back and read during the Depression.

Can you imagine being FDR in 1932, coming off the Great Depression?

>> Well, as a descendant of Herbert Hoover, I sure can.

>> [ Laughs ] >> [ Laughs ] >> I won't even comment on that one, Margaret.

>> [ Laughs ] >> God bless you.

>> But yeah.

[ Chuckles ] >> You rose above it.

That's all I can say.

You rose above it.

>> Well, we'll have a drink over what FDR did to make the transition actually unhelpful -- >> But the bottom line is what?

The only thing I have said there, you know, the greatest thing you can give a person is a job and a paycheck.

But the main thing is infrastructure.

Can you imagine if we did a $2 trillion or $3 trillion infrastructure program, rebuilding America and a job for everybody, and a good-paying job with benefits?

>> Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

>> To me, that's what we should be looking at, hopefully.

And but, also, you've got to give Joe Biden a chance.

Give the man the chance to do what he needs to do.

He knows how fractured we are, how divided, and he said, "I want to be the President for all the people."

>> Who are your fellow travelers, your top-five fellow travelers in the U.S. Senate in terms of, you know, being in the center that you can see getting things done?

Is it people like Mark Warner, Krysten Sinema, Lisa Murkowski, Rob Portman?

Who are the group of you?

>> Yeah.

Well, you have -- I mean, myself, the bond that we've formed is myself and Susan Collins have been very, very close for the whole period of time, 'cause it seemed like that we're always in that middle in both of our caucuses, okay?

And then you have Lisa, and you have Mark, and you have all the people you've just mentioned, and Angus King and so many good people, okay?

Ben Sasse has become a real good friend of mine now, and I hear, you know, Ben's really speaking up, taking a prominent role.

I think he's gonna be excellent.

We've got Mitt Romney coming, which is helpful.

We've got John Hickenlooper.

We've got Mark Kelly.

We got Krysten Sinema.

A lot of people in the moderate.

And I have told my Democrat colleagues -- I said, "Listen, you're not going to be in the majority by just having, you know, more left-progressives.

You've got to have that moderate middle.

You have to understand who we are and where we come from, the people we represent."

And that's all we're trying to do is bring that moderate middle back to a voice of prominence, and I think that will happen.

>> If you had one thing that you hope President Biden will do that will help reunite the nation, what would it be, Senator?

>> You know, there's so many things that I think he can do.

But the thing I think that Joe Biden can do that I haven't seen anybody do is show his heart and soul.

He'll wear it on his sleeves, the compassion he has for human beings.

It's not whether you agree with him.

You know, he and I were talking.

He says, "Joe, I never asked you -- whatever your convictions are, I would never ask you to change your support or vote based on your convictions.

That's who you are as a human being.

It's how you were raised, who raised you, where you were embraced."

He understands humanity.

And the difference is, that has to come through.

Let Joe Biden show you who he is.

Give him a chance to show his heart and soul.

That's what I'm asking for.

And if you can do that, then people maybe will soften.

Just because he might be a Democrat with a "D" by his name, he's our president.

He's mine and yours.

I think Joe can bring that if they'll give him a chance, and I'm just hoping that we are able to give him that opportunity.

>> Shortly after that conversation, a handful of congressional Republicans announced that they would support impeachment, and the New York Times reported that Majority Leader Mitch McConnell believed the President had committed impeachable offenses.

Senator Manchin, welcome back to "Firing Line" post impeachment.

>> Thank you, Margaret.

>> Earlier this week, we heard your concerns about the impeachment process moving too quickly, that you wanted them to build bipartisan support.

And 10 House Republicans in the end joined House Democrats and voted to impeach President Trump, making it the most bipartisan impeachment in history.

>> Yeah.

>> Does the outcome allay your concerns?

>> Well, that's historic.

Well, it truly is.

And it sends one unbelievable message.

You know, who'd want to go down in history being impeached twice in the same term, and, also, having it the most bipartisan?

So it tells you that this is a grave concern.

We've known it's been a grave concern.

And the only thing I'm concerned about is, is there 17 Republicans -- 'cause it takes 67 -- to convict?

I hope now that we have it -- you know, we have no control over that.

It's being sent to us, as I'm understanding, on the 19th.

Now, I've heard that we could start as early as the 20th or the 21st on this trial.

You know, I'm still concerned about putting our government together.

I think it's paramount of what we do, getting a working, functioning government that basically is able to govern and protect us and promote democracy around the world?

>> Do you think, Senator, you'll be able to walk and chew gum, to be able to hold an impeachment hearing and confirm President Biden's Cabinet picks and his administration?

>> We have to.

You can't fail on this.

We have to do it, and we will do it.

>> Senator, there are Republican Senators who have called on the President to resign, and there are others who are open to considering arguments in an impeachment trial.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell believes that President Trump committed impeachable offenses and said that he was pleased by the House's impeachment efforts.

>> I haven't heard that directly from him, Margaret, but I've heard he has said that.

And that's a very positive, very good move.

>> Does support from Majority Leader McConnell for impeachment indicate to you that there actually could be enough support amongst Republicans Senators to join Democratic Senators in convicting President Trump?

>> Margaret, it's hard to believe, with all of the information and all of the facts that we have seen and the evidence so far that was basically just everybody has seen, whether it be from the threats and the coercing of the Secretary of State, that "I only need 11,780 votes," and then basically, the President to say, "Come to Washington.

Come help me.

We've got to stop this steal," and then give a pep rally.

And look at the timing.

The timing happened, the insurrection, as far as them coming into that Capitol, happened exactly at the time when we were voting.

They knew what was going on in that.

They knew exactly the time frame.

And so there's too much there.

Now, with that being said, that should be enough.

Margaret, I think there might be a lot more coming out that might be much more damning.

And if that happens, then let's see.

Let's see if our Constitution, our government, our democracy, our republic means more than anybody's party.

That's what we have to see.

>> What might still be coming out, Senator?

What kind of information could come out?

>> Was the President complicit in basically sitting there, watching it happen, watching the Capitol, that basically is the seat of power, watching it being attacked, know that all the lawmakers are in there, all -- his Vice President is in there, him watching that on film, and then still no help coming for a couple hours later?

My goodness, you would think that would jump you into action immediately -- immediately.

If you had to, go up there yourself and stand in front of this group, who admires you and adores you, and say, "Stop.

This is not what we're about."

>> Senator, a group of more than 30 House Democrats are calling for an investigation into access given by GOP lawmakers to visitors of the Capitol on January 5, the day before the violent attack.

They are suggesting that this was a "reconnaissance mission" of sorts for the rioters.

>> I've heard that, too.

>> Does there need to be an investigation?

>> Sure, there needs to be an investigation.

All of this evidence has to come forth.

And that was another reason for holding the impeachment off for two, three months -- put our government in place, get all the evidence, let the people see it, be transparent, and then go.

But we have what we have right now, Margaret.

We're gonna deal with what we have.

We're gonna get this government back up and running.

We're gonna have a fair and open impeachment.

We want all the evidence to come forth, and everyone has to vote their conscience.

That's it.

>> Minutes after he was impeached, President Trump released a video in which he says "I unequivocally condemn the violence," although he did not admit that the election was free and fair, and he has yet to congratulate President-elect Biden for winning the election.

Does what Donald Trump said there have any influence on how you might vote?

>> I've always voted based on the evidence, and I just gave you what I know the evidence to be, 'cause I've seen that and heard it with my own ears and my own eyes.

So if there's more to come, I want to see it.

If there's a defense for what I have seen and what I've heard, I want to hear the defense, too.

But if this is not impeachable from what we were able to see and for the whole world to see, I don't know what is impeachable.

>> Some have raised concerns that this second impeachment of Donald Trump normalizes impeachment.

Does that concern you?

>> Well, I don't agree with that.

I mean, I don't think impeachment should be used as a political tool.

It's not a vindictive tool, and it never has been intended to be that.

But this impeachment -- this impeachment here, we've never seen anything and anybody ever impeached with these types of charges against them, and the sedition -- the encouragement of sedition and the insurrection that basically was encouraged by the leader of the free world, the President of the United States.

We have never, ever, Margaret, come close to seeing anything like this.

>> Senator Manchin, fast-forward one month from now.

President-elect Biden will be in office.

Where will we be as a country?

>> Well, I'm gonna do everything in my power to make sure that we come together as the United States and not the divided states, which is where we are now.

It's so important for people to start believing the truth, believing the rule of law, believe in the elected officials who are held accountable.

And basically, if the election's been counted, recounted, triple-counted, it's gone through every court proceeding, we did everything that we possibly could, and it was found to be a good, honest, accurate election, you've got to come to that belief.

And let's move on with a new president trying to unite our country.

I want to be part of that.

>> Senator Manchin, thank you for returning to "Firing Line" the second time in an historic week.

>> Thank you, Margaret, for having me.

I appreciate it.

>> "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by... Corporate funding is provided by... ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> You're watching PBS.