DONALD TRUMP THE FORMER PRESIDENT WAS BACK IN COURT TODAY.

THIS TIME THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS ANSWERING FOR HIS BUSINESS DEALINGS IN NEW YORK AND HIS EMPIRE MIGHT BE AT STAKE.

THE SELF-DESCRIBED PROPERTY MOGUL HAD ALREADY BEEN FOUND LIABLE FOR PERSISTENT AND REPEATED FRAUD IN THE CIVIL TRIAL.

DAVID K JOHNSON IS A PULITZER PRIZE ECONOMICS REPORTER AND HE JOINS HARI TO DISCUSS WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION.

>> DAVID K JOHNSON, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

LAST WEEK, THE JUDGE FOUND THAT THE PRESIDENT THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES PERSISTENTLY COMMITTED FRAUD.

AS HE BUILT UP HIS EMPIRE OF BUSINESSES IN NEW YORK.

IF YOU COULD, FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION ON WHAT HAPPENED LAST WEEK, WALK US THROUGH WHAT THE JUDGE SAID IS THERE.

>> THE ISSUE HAD TO DO WITH THE VALUES TRUMP BASED ON SOME OF HIS BUSINESS IS PRINCIPALLY, REAL ESTATE.

REAL ESTATE IS A RANGE OF VALUE, YOU KNOW WHAT IF YOU HAVE A HOUSE THAT YOU THINK IS A QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS, IT WILL NOT SELL FOR $200 MILLION.

THE TRUMP VALUED SOME OF HIS PROPERTIES AT MORE THAN 10 TIMES WHAT AN ALREADY GENEROUS APPRAISAL HAD SHOWN THEY WERE WORTH.

HE HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR THE WHOLE 35 YEARS I'VE KNOWN HIM, MAKING CLAIMS LIKE THIS.

FINALLY, IT'S BECOME A LEGAL ISSUE.

>> FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH HOW THAT TRANSLATES IN TO THE REST OF THE BUSINESS AND BY INFLATING THE VALUE OF YOUR PENTHOUSE AND HOW BIG IT IS OR HOW MUCH IT'S WORTH, WHAT IS THE ADVANTAGE YOU GET FROM THAT?

>> IT ALLOWED TRUMP TO GET LARGER LOANS ON BETTER TERMS.

BECAUSE IT UP HERE TO THE BANKS THAT THEIR RISK LEVEL WAS SLOWER BECAUSE THE SHARE OF THE VALUE THAT WAS REPRESENTED WAS SMALLER.

SO EVEN THOUGH THE BANKS ALL GOT PAID BACK THIS TIME, THE FACT IS THAT OTHER PEOPLE DID NOT GET LOANS THEY MIGHT HAVE BECAUSE BANKS ALL HAVE A LIMITED LENDING CAPACITY.

>> HOW BIG OF A DECISION IS THIS?

>> THIS IS IN INCREDIBLY DAMAGING TO DONALD TRUMP.

IT GOES TO THE HEART OF WHO HE IS.

DONALD IS HIS MONEY.

HE HAS ALWAYS SAYING THAT HE HAS MORE MONEY THAN HE HAS.

ONCE HE TOLD ME HE WAS WORTH $3 BILLION, I TOLD HIM I DID NOT BELIEVE HIM.

HE WAS SO UPSET LATER THAT AFTERNOON, HE TOLD ANOTHER JOURNALIST WAS WORTH $5 BILLION.

HE JUST MAKES THIS STUFF UP.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME HE HAS EVER BEEN HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR IT.

>> LARGE WAY, THE CASE THAT HE MADE WHEN HE WAS RUNNING, THE FIRST TIME WAS THAT I AM A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN, I BUILD THE SAME AND I CAN DO THE SAME FOR THE COUNTRY.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY'S CASE.

HERE'S THE PROBLEM WITH IT.

BUSINESSMAN AS LAID OUT IN HIS BOOK, THE ART OF THE DEAL, WHAT HE DOES IS RIP PEOPLE OFF AND THEN MOVE ON TO THE NEXT VICTIM AND IT'S VERY CLEAR IF YOU READ THE BOOK THAT'S WHAT HE DOES.

HE HAS A LONG HISTORY OF NOT PAYING HIS WORKERS.

NOT PAYING VENDORS, EMPLOYING ILLEGAL ALIENS AND REFUSING TO PLAY PAY THEM UNTIL HE THREATENS TO KILL THE SUPERVISOR.

TRUMP'S WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN A FACADE.

I ADMIRE HIS INCREDIBLE SKILL AT TELLING PEOPLE AND PERSUADING PEOPLE.

HE IS WHAT IS IN.

>> WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

>> THIS TRIAL IS ONLY ABOUT THE DAMAGES DUE TO THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO GET THE JUDGE LAST WEEK CANCELED DONALD TRUMP'S BUSINESS CERTIFICATES, BUSINESS LICENSES.

HE CANNOT DO BUSINESS IN NEW YORK.

THERE'S A MONITOR WATCHING THE COMPANIES.

HE CANNOT TAKE MONEY OUT OF THEM TO SUPPORT HIMSELF.

IS SET, THE BUSINESSES WILL BE SOLD.

AND ALL OF THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION ENTERPRISES MORE THAN 500 HAVE TO BE DIVESTED BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A BUSINESS LICENSE, YOU CANNOT RUN A BUSINESS, UNLESS LIKE ME, AS A BOOK AUTHOR, YOU ARE A SOLE PROPRIETOR.

THE JUDGE IN THIS CASE, WILL APPOINT A RECEIVER AT SOME POINT.

THERE WILL CERTAINLY BE APPEALS AND ARGUMENTS.

BECAUSE DONALD NO LONGER HAS BUSINESS LICENSES IN NEW YORK, THE RECEIVER WILL ACCEPT ALL THE PROPERTY, HE WILL PUT IT FOR SALE, JUST AS HAPPENS IN BANKRUPTCY, THIS IS STATE BUSINESS LAW.

THE SALE PRICES ARE GOING TO BE MUCH MORE FIRESALE PRICES THAN PRICES.

THE CREDITORS GET PAID FIRST.

PEOPLE HAVE MORTGAGES ON THE BUILDING SECOND, THE GOVERNMENT INCLUDING THE FINES, THE STATE IS SEEKING $250 MILLION IN PENALTIES.

THE PERSON WHO GETS PAID LAST, DONALD TRUMP.

>> COULD THE CHILDREN STILL PROFIT FROM THIS?

>> NO.

TWO OF HIS SONS ARE NAMED IN THIS LITIGATION.

ALONG WITH THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION AND DONALD'S EYES WIDE OPEN BLIND TRUST THAT HE CREATED WHEN HE BECAME PRESIDENT ALL OF THOSE ARE COVERED BY THIS.

IVANKA TRUMP GOT HERSELF OUT OF THE CASE.

THE TWO YOUNGER CHILDREN ARE NOT INVOLVED IN IT WHATSOEVER.

SO DONALD IS OUT OF BUSINESS IN NEW YORK.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF LITIGATION.

THIS WILL BE FULL EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM FOR LAWYERS.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, DONALD TRUMP WILL NOT HAVE HIS ENTERPRISES AND BUSINESSES AND HE MAY WELL LOSE MAR-A-LAGO.

>> WILL THAT WAS THAT ALSO INFLATED IN VALUE QUESTION MARK >> ONE OF HIS COMPLAINTS IS THAT IT IS WORTH HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, ONE WHO IS THAT.

THE JUDGE SAID IT'S WORTH $18 MILLION.

>> REMEMBER IT'S A BUSINESS, IT HAS HOTEL ROOMS AND THEY HOLD WEDDINGS AND FUNCTIONS, IT IS NOT A PERSONAL HOME.

CANNOT SHIELD IT FROM THIS ACTION BY THE GOVERNMENT.

ALL OF HIS PROPERTY WILL HAVE TO BE LIQUIDATED AND WILL BE DONE BY THE COURT APPOINTED RECEIVER AND THE PERSON WHO GETS PAID LAST IS DONALD AND GIVEN THE INFLATED VALUES, YOU WILL NOT END UP MUCH OF ANYTHING.

>> COULDN'T TRUMP SAY LOOK, I AM NOT AN ACCOUNTANT.

I TRUSTED EVERYBODY AROUND ME.

YOU SHOULD TAKE IT UP WITH WEISSELBERG, WITH LOTS OF OTHERS, YOU SHOULD CALL THE BANKS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO APPROVED MY INFLATED NUMBERS, IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE FINDING.

SHOULDN'T THE BANKS HAVE SOME RESPONSIBILITY HERE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE VERY POOR JOB WE DO OF REGULATING BANKS IN AMERICA.

IN RECENT YEARS, WE FOUND ONE OF THE SIX TO FEEL BANKS CREATED FRAUDULENT ACCOUNTS.

WE ARE DOING A BAD JOB OF REGULATING BANKS.

THAT REGULATION GOES ALL THE WAY BACK TO HAMMURABI'S CODE FOR THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

AS FOR DONALD TRYING TO BLAME OTHER PEOPLE, HE ALWAYS DOES THAT.

DONALD WAS PASSED IN 2016 CAMPAIGN, YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU ASKED GOD FOR FORGIVENESS, AND HE SAID, ASK GOD FOR FORGIVENESS?

WHY WOULD I DO THAT QUESTION MARK I'VE NEVER DONE ANYTHING IN MY LIFE THAT REQUIRES ASKING FORGIVENESS.

DONALD NEVER ASSUMES RESPONSE ABILITY.

HE ALWAYS BLAMES OTHER PEOPLE AND THERE ARE PEOPLE GULLIBLE ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT.

IN THE COURT OF LAW, ARGUMENTS THAT --ARE NOT THE ISSUE.

CLEAR AND VERY WELL DEVELOPED AND THE EVIDENCE AGAINST DONALD IN THIS CASE IS OVERWHELMING.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS READ THE JUDGE'S OPINION, DON'T NEED TO BE A LAWYER TO UNDERSTAND IT.

HE LAYS OUT.

CLEARLY, THIS WAS CALCULATED INTENTIONAL FRAUD AND AS SOME OF HIS EXECUTIVES USED TO TELL ME AND AS MICHAEL COHEN HAS SAID TO ME AND EVERYBODY ELSE, NOTHING HAPPENS IN THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION WITHOUT THE DIRECTION AND APPROVAL OF MR. TRUMP.

>> HE SAID HE WILL APPEAL THE DECISION.

HE CALLED IT QUOTE COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED FROM THE FACTS IN GOVERNING LAW.

TRUMP SAID, IT WAS A POLITICAL PERSECUTION, WALK US THROUGH THE POTENTIAL APPEALS PROCESS FOR DONALD TRUMP.

>> IN THE CIVIL CASE, DONALD CAN ONLY APPEAL ON MATTERS OF THE LAW.

HE CANNOT APPEAL ON THE FINDINGS THE FACT THAT THE JUDGE WHICH ARE THOROUGHLY DESCRIBED IN THE 35 PAGE OPINION WITH SPECIFIC EXAMPLES INCLUDING TRUMP'S OWN STATEMENTS WHERE HE IN ESSENCE SAID ABOUT HIS FINANCIAL STATEMENTS, EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU CAN'T REPLY ON MY FINANCIAL STATEMENTS, THE JUDGE SAID WE ARE NOT LIVING IN A FANTASY WORLD.

HE ASSERTED HE REGULATED APARTMENT WAS WORTH JUST AS MUCH AS A FREE-MARKET APARTMENT WHICH IS ABSURD.

THE JUDGE KNOCKED DOWN.

THEY WILL APPEAL ON ANYTHING THAT IS NOT THE LAW THAT WILL BE IGNORED.

THEY MAY FIND SOME TECHNICAL ISSUE.

I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND ONE AND I HAVE INTERVIEWED OTHER PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE CIVIL LAW AND THEY DON'T SEE ANYTHING EITHER THAT IS APPEALABLE AS A MATTER AND SUCCESSFULLY APPEALABLE.

THERE'S NO APPEAL TO FEDERAL COURT BECAUSE THERE'S NO FEDERAL ISSUE, THIS IS A NEW YORK STATE ISSUE.

STATES DECIDE WHO GETS TO RUN A BUSINESS UNDER OUR SYSTEM, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THE FOUNDING FATHERS NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT CORPORATIONS AND REGULATION WHEN THEY WROTE THE CONSTITUTION.

>> HOW LONG ARE WE TALKING ABOUT TIME WHAT LINE WISE FOR THE PROGRESSION OF THIS?

>> THAT DEPENDS ON HOW SUCCESSFUL HIS LAWYERS ARE IN DELAY AND DONALD HAS ALWAYS BEEN BIG ON DELAYING HIS LAWYERS MADE UP FACTS LIKE CLIENT DOES.

FIVE OF THEM WERE EACH FINED $7500 FOR FRIVOLOUS DOCUMENTS ARGUMENTS THAT THE JUDGE REJECTED AND THEY ACTUALLY LIMITED THE CODED LANGUAGE OF AN IMPORTANT COURT CASE TO TURN IT ON ITS HEAD.

THEY ARE UNCLEAN HANDS.

THE AIR MISCONDUCT HERE.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE A SYMPATHETIC APPEALS COURT.

FRANKLY, THEY MAY FACE DISBARMENT OR OTHER DISCIPLINARY PROCEEDINGS BY THE NEW YORK STATE BAR.

>> IF THE PRESIDENT LOOSES THE APPEALS, THE STATUS OF HIS ABILITY TO DO BUSINESS IS IN THE FUTURE IS ONE THING, ALL OF THESE EXISTING BUSINESSES WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM, THEY HAVE TO BE LIQUIDATED?

>> THEY WILL CONTINUE TO OPERATE UNDER THE EYE OF A MONITOR, A RETIRED JUDGE NAMED BARBARA JONES, DONALD CANNOT TAKE ANY SALARY OR MONEY FROM THEM.

THE REASON IS, THESE ARE ILL- GOTTEN GAINS.

IF YOU COMMITTED FRAUD AND YOU MADE A PROFIT BECAUSE OF A FRAUD, THAT IS AN ILL-GOTTEN GAIN.

YOU HAVE AN EMPLOYER WHO YOU WORK FOR WHO CLOSES FRIDAY NIGHT AND OPENS UP ON MONDAY.

YOU TAKE $100 FROM THE EMPLOYER.

YOU GO TO THE CASINO I IN 1000.

HE PUT THE HUNDRED DOLLARS BACK BEFORE THIS IS REOPENS.

YOU COMMITTED TO CRIMES.

ONE, YOU ARE A PIECE, THE SECOND, YOUR CASINO WIN IS AN ILL-GOTTEN GAIN AND IF YOUR CARD, YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP ALL OF THAT MONEY AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED.

ILL-GOTTEN GAINS, HAVE TO BE TURNED BACK.

AND WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THOSE ARE GOING TO BE.

WE ONLY KNOW THE NEW YORK STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S ASKED FOR $250 MILLION INDICATING THE SCOPE OF THIS WHICH IS ENORMOUS.

>> REGARDLESS OF HOW THE MIGHT FEEL ABOUT THE PRESIDENT, THERE ARE EMPLOYEES IN MANY GROUNDSKEEPER, TO THE DOORMAN.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM?

>> WILL CONTINUE TO GET PAID AND BUSINESSES OPERATE AND TO THE NEW OWNER COMES ALONG.

THE BUSINESSES WILL OPERATE AS THEY HAVE BEEN AT NIGHT AT THE DIRECTION OF THE TRUMP AND HIS SONS AND NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT.

IS THERE ANYTHING SURPRISING TO YOU, YOU'RE NOT THE AVERAGE PERSON HAS BEEN FOLLOWING TRUMP AS CLOSELY AS YOU HAVE FOR THE LAST 35 YEARS.

WHEN YOU SAW SOMETHING, AND YOU JUMP OUT FOR YOU?

>> NO.

INTERESTING QUESTION.

THERE WASN'T ANYTHING THAT JUMPED OUT.

ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE CONSISTENT WITH HIS LONG HISTORY OF CREATING HIS OWN REALITY.

HE SAYS IT AND IN HIS MIND, THAT MAKES IT SO.

THE OVER VALUATIONS, I HAVE WRITTEN IN THE PAST, HE CLAIMED HIS ESTATE IN WESTCHESTER COUNTY NORTH OF MANHATTAN WAS WORTH $291 MILLION HIGHEST APPRAISAL ABOUT 30 MILLION, BASED ON THE IDEA THAT HE COULD CARVE IT UP INTO A GROUP OF OTHER MANSIONS AND YET LOCAL AUTHORITY SAID NO.

HE WILL NOT LET YOU CARVE IT UP WHICH MEANS IT'S NOT WORTH THAT IT AT 40 TIMES WHAT IT'S ACTUALLY WORTH.

ANNUAL AND SHEER, IF HE SAID HIS 11,000 SQUARE-FOOT APARTMENT WAS 12 THOUSAND SQUARE FEET, BUT HE SAID IT WAS OVER 30,000 SQUARE FEET, THAT IS FRAUD PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

>> THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN WHEN THE MANHATTAN DA WAS INVESTIGATING FORMER PRESIDENT AND DECLINED TO BRING CHARGES, THIS IS A RESULT OF NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL LETITIA JAMES FILING THIS SUIT, IS THERE A DIFFERENCE IN THE SCOPE?

>> THE JUDGE IN THE CURRENT CIVIL CASE REPEATEDLY CITES CRIMINAL LAW.

TRY AND SOME OTHERS HAVE WRITTEN ARTICLE THAT THERE'S A STRONG CRIMINAL FRAUD CASE THE DIFFERENCE IS CRIMINAL FRAUD REQUIRES PROOF BEYOND A WHERE AS A CIVIL CASE, YOU ONLY NEED A PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE MORE THAN HALF.

SO LETITIA JAMES TOOK THE EASIER ROUTE.

I THINK IT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, ALL THE MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY OR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK THE FEDERAL PROSECUTORIAL AGENCY GO BACK AND LOOK AT THESE AS A CRIMINAL FRAUD MATTER?

I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO, BUT I THINK THAT PLENTY OF GROUNDS TO IF THEY WANT TO BRING IT.

>> THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS A LONG HISTORY OF SETTLING OUT OF COURT.

THIS IS A DIFFERENT ERA?

ARE THERE DIFFERENT STARS ALIGNED WHERE THERE'S AN INCENTIVE NOT TO SETTLE ON THE PART OF THE STATE?

IF DONALD TRUMP HAS NOT BECOME PRESIDENT I DON'T THINK YOU WILL SEE ANY OF THESE CASES BECAUSE HE ENGAGE IN OUTRAGEOUS BEHAVIORS AND HOLDS WHOLE LIFE, HE'S NOT ALONE AMONG HIS PEOPLE TO GET AWAY WITH STUFF BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS FOCUSED.

DONALD IS IN MY VIEW, THE GREATEST CON ARTIST IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

I ADMIRE HIS SUCCESS AS A CON ARTIST HE CON THIS WAY ALL THE WAY INTO THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU