>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A COMMITMENT TO TELLING THE COMPLETE STORY OF AMERICA.

>> AMERICA RETURNED 250 UNDER A PRESIDENT WHO HAS BEEN PUSHING HIS EXECUTIVE POWER TO THE LIMITS.

WAGING WAR OFTEN AGAINST HISTORY ITSELF.

I ASK LONNIE G. BUNCH, HEAD OF THE SMITHSONIAN, HOW THE COUNTRY SHOULD BE APPROACHING THIS MILESTONE BIRTHDAY.

THEN -- >> WE ARE ABOUT TO LOSE AN ENTIRE GENERATION WHO WILL NEVER SPEAK AUTHENTICALLY IN THEIR OWN VOICE.

>> WHAT DO WE REALLY WANT FROM ART, AND HOW CAN WE PROTECT HUMAN CREATIVITY AS A. I. KEEPS GAINING GROUND?

I SEDAN WITH NOVELIST DAVE EGGERS TO EXPLORE THOSE QUESTIONS AND HIS NEW NOVEL CONTRAPPOSTO.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> IT BEGINS AT A VERY FAMILIAR WAY.

STRONG VERSUS THE WEAK.

DESIRE FOR TERRITORY.

DESIRE FOR NATIONALISTIC CONTROL.

>> LEARNING THE LESSONS FROM THE DARKEST CORNER OF THE PAST.

HISTORIAN JON MEACHAM TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS EPIC 20 PART WORLD WAR II DOCUMENTARY SERIES NARRATED BY THE OSCAR-WINNING ACTOR TOM HANKS.

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN , COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AMERICA TURNS 250 THIS SATURDAY , AN OCCASION YEARS IN THE PLANNING THE ORGANIZERS HOPED WOULD BRING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER AND GET CROWDS OUT TO CELEBRATE TOGETHER.

THE REALITY, THOUGH, IS PROVING A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP MADE CLEAR HE WANTED TO TRANSFORM THE NATION'S ANNIVERSARY INTO HIS OWN PERSONAL VICTORY LAP.

>> JUST LIKE THOSE PATRIOTS OF 1776 , OVER THE PAST 17 MONTHS WE HAVE TAKEN POWERBACK FROM THE FAR OFF POLITICAL CLASS.

THEY ARE TRYING TO GAIN IT BACK, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE HAVE RECLAIMED OUR SOVEREIGNTY, REGAINED OUR LIBERTY, RESTORED OUR PROSPERITY, AND WE HAVE SAVED OUR COUNTRY.

>> SO THAT IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VIEW.

AT THE SAME TIME, HIS ADMINISTRATION KEEPS ATTACKING AMERICA'S DIVERSE CULTURAL HERITAGE AND KEEPS TRYING TO DICTATE HOW AMERICA SHOULD VIEW ITSELF.

THE MAN IN CHARGE OF KEEPING THE NATION'S MEMORY HAS HIS OWN VIEWS, LONNIE BUNCH, HEAD OF THE SICILIAN INSTITUTION.

HE OVERSAW THE CREATION OF THE MUSEUM OF AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY.

ROLLS WHICH HAVE PUT HIM AT LOGGERHEADS WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I SPOKE TO HIM JUST AHEAD OF THE HOLIDAY WEEKEND.

LONNIE BUNCH, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> IT IS A MOMENTOUS TIME FOR US TO SPEAK, ESPECIALLY WITH YOU, BECAUSE OF ALL YOU HAVE DONE TO PRESERVE AMERICAN HISTORY, AND BECAUSE OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE WINDS OF RESISTANCE AS EVEN BECOMING THE WAY OF AMERICAN HISTORY RIGHT NOW.

YOU HAVE SAID THE 250th ANNIVERSARY IS THE PERFECT TIME TO EXPLORE AND EXPLAIN OUR COUNTRY.

HOW SO?

>> WELL, IN MANY WAYS, IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO ACTUALLY GET PEOPLE TO THINK ABOUT HISTORY AND HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT HISTORY REALLY IS.

THAT HISTORY IS REALLY ABOUT AMBIGUITY, COMPLEXITY, NEW MODS DEBATE.

THAT NEW WANTS TO DEBATE.

THE MORE WE CAN HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE COMPLICITY OF THIS NATION, THE DIVERSITY OF THIS NATION, THE BETTER IT IS.

BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS, HISTORY IS AS MUCH ABOUT TODAY AND TOMORROW AS YESTERDAY.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS TO IS YESTERDAY TO HELP SHAPE TODAY.

>> EXCEPT FOR THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE CURRENT ONE, DOESN'T SEEM TO WANT TO DO THAT.

JUST IN TERMS OF DIVERSITY.

YOU KNOW, FENCE --SINCE THE INAUGURATION, THERE'S BEEN AN ACTIVE ANTI-DEI, EVEN THE SMITHSONIAN, EVEN YOU IN THE CROSSHAIRS.

HOW DO YOU RISE ABOVE THAT?

>> I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A COMMITMENT TO TELLING THE COMPLETE STORY OF AMERICA.

TO TELL A STORY THAT REALLY IS A STORY OF MANY PEOPLES WHO HAVE SHAPED THIS NATION.

SOME THE PEOPLE WANT TO NOT TALK ABOUT, BUT I THINK OUR JOB IS TO SAY, HOW DO WE TELL AN ACCURATE HISTORY DRIVEN BY SCHOLARSHIP THAT IS NONPARTISAN , THE CHALLENGES AMERICA TO LIVE UP TO ITS IDEALS, THAT CELEBRATES AMERICA, BUT ALSO CELEBRATES THE GREAT STRENGTH OF AMERICANS , THE PEOPLE OF VOTED, DEBATED, PUSHED TO HELP AMERICA LIVE UP TO THOSE IDEALS?

IT IS OUR JOB TO TELL AN ACCURATE, COMPLEX AND TRUTHFUL HISTORY.

>> BEFORE I GET TO SOME --TO ASK YOU TO REACT TO SOME OF WHAT IS COMING AT YOU FROM THE ADMINISTRATION, I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT, IN THIS VEIN, WHEN YOU SAY WE HAVE TO CELEBRATE EVERYTHING, EVERYBODY AND ALL THE U. S. ACHIEVEMENTS, YOU TELL A STORY IN YOUR MEMOIR ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AS A YOUNG HISTORIAN, YOU MET PRINTY JENKINS, A MAN IN HIS 90s, GRANDSON OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE AT A PLANTATION IN SOUTH CAROLINA.

HE TOLD YOU AS A HISTORIAN THAT YOUR JOB BETTER BE TO HELP PEOPLE REMEMBER , NOT JUST WHAT THEY WANT TO REMEMBER, BUT WHAT THEY NEED TO REMEMBER.

HOW DID THOSE WORDS FIRST, YOU KNOW, HIT YOU?

AND HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THEM NOW AT THIS TIME?

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN HE SAID THAT, I REALIZED THOSE WORDS WERE GOING TO SHAPE THE REST OF MY CAREER.

IT REALLY WAS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE KNEW SO YOU COULD SORT OF CELEBRATE THOSE STORIES.

BUT ALSO SAY, BUT IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND STORIES THAT YOU MAY NOT WANT TO KNOW, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL PART OF SHAPING WHO WE ARE.

SO FOR ME, JENKINS WORDS ARE REALLY MY NORTHSTAR.

EVERY DAY I THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE CHALLENGED ME TO MAKE SURE I HELP PEOPLE BECOME BETTER BY UNDERSTANDING THE COMPLEXITY OF THE PAST.

>> SO YOU HAVE MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT YOU PLAN TO KEEP THOSE WORDS , YOU KNOW, AT THE CENTER OF YOUR CELEBRATIONS.

TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF THE PAST, NOT TO ALLOW ANY FORCES OF POLITICS TO DIMINISH WHAT YOU WANT TO SHOW VIA THE SMITHSONIAN.

YOU HAVE CO-CURATED BASICALLY THE CENTERPIECE OF THE EXHIBIT FOR THE 250th CALLED AMERICAN ASPIRATIONS.

WHAT DID YOU SET OUT TO DO THERE?

APPARENTLY YOU CHRONICLE THROUGH MORE THAN 30 OBJECTS TAKEN FROM THE SMITHSONIAN COLLECTION.

>> WHAT I WANTED TO DO WAS TO SAY THAT AMERICA IS AS MUCH AN IDEAL AS IT IS A PLACE.

MANY OF THOSE IDEALS REALLY CAN BE TRACED TO JEFFERSON'S WORDS IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

FOR ME, THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE CHALLENGES US TO BE A NATION IN PURSUIT.

IN PURSUIT OF FAIRNESS, OPPORTUNITY, SORT OF NEW HORIZONS.

WHAT I WANTED TO DO WAS TO TAKE JEFFERSON'S IDEAS TO SAY IT IS IMPORTANT TO CELEBRATE AND UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS, BECAUSE REALLY FOR 250 YEARS, PEOPLE OF DONE EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO MAKE THOSE WORDS CONCRETE, TO MAKE THOSE WORDS ACCESSIBLE, TO MAKE THOSE WORDS MEANINGFUL TO EVERYBODY IN AMERICA.

I WANTED TO LOOK AT THAT BY SAYING, HERE ARE CERTAIN ASPIRATIONS.

ASPIRATIONS OF FAIRNESS, HOPE, AND HOW DO WE USE ONE OR TWO OBJECTS?

AS YOU KNOW AT THE SMITHSONIAN, YOU COME TO AN EXHIBITION, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF OBJECTS.

I WANT YOU TO HAVE A VERY INTIMATE EXPERIENCE.

I WANTED YOU TO START BY LOOKING AT THE DESK JEFFERSON WROTE THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE ON AND TO USE THOSE MOMENTS TO GET YOU, NOT JUST A LOOK AT THE PAST, BUT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS TO US TODAY.

SO THE CHALLENGE IS REALLY SAYING, TAKE A FEW OBJECTS, LET PEOPLE HAVE AN INTIMATE EXPERIENCE WITH THOSE OBJECTS, AND BASICALLY USE THOSE TO HAVE PEOPLE GRAPPLE WITH WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN, WHAT IT MEANS TO UNDERSTAND OUR HISTORY, WHAT IT MEANS TO UNDERSTAND THE FULLNESS OF OUR HISTORY.

>> WE ARE LOOKING AT SOME OF THOSE IMAGES RIGHT NOW.

OF COURSE, JEFFERSON MAY BE SLIGHTLY COMPLICATED BUT I WILL ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

WHILE HE WROTE THE BASIC CREED OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL , I WOULD LIKE TO THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE ADDED ALL PEOPLE IN TODAY'S WORLD, THAT HE WAS ALSO A SLAVE OWNER.

HE HAD ENSLAVED MORE THAN 600 PEOPLE OVER THE COURSE OF HIS LIFE.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT CONTRADICTION?

HOW SHOULD PEOPLE ALL THESE YEARS LATER RECONCILE THAT?

>> I WOULD SUGGEST THAT ONE OF THE WAYS TO UNDERSTAND JEFFERSON IS TO UNDERSTAND WHO HE WAS IN FULLNESS.

HE WAS A SLAVE OWNER.

HE UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE LACK OF FREEDOM IT'S BECAUSE HE SOUGHT EVERY DAY.

AND YET, I THINK THE CHALLENGE IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THROUGH THE WORDS, EVEN THOUGH HIS WORDS WERE NOT FOR EVERYONE, WE HAVE TAKEN THOSE WORDS AND SAID, THEY ARE PART OF WHO WE ARE AS AMERICANS.

AND SO, WHAT YOU SEE IS, WHETHER IT IS WOMEN, ABOLITIONISTS, IMMIGRANTS, USING THOSE WORDS TO SAY, WE JUST WANT AMERICA TO LIVE UP TO THOSE IDEALS THAT ARE OUTLINED BY JEFFERSON.

FOR ME, JEFFERSON IS A COUPLE GET A PERSON .

RACE IS REALLY CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTANDING WHO WE ARE AS A PEOPLE, BUT IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT THOSE IDEALS HE PENNED OUR IDEALS PEOPLE HAVE NOW CEASED AND TRY TO MAKE THEM ACCESSIBLE AND MEANINGFUL FOR EVERYBODY.

THAT IS THE CHALLENGE, AND THAT IS THE CONTRADICTION.

>> AGAIN, ESPECIALLY THE CHALLENGE NOW AS THERE SEEMS TO BE A DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO ROLL BACK, AND TO SORT OF ALMOST SIDELINE THAT HISTORY .

WE ARE ALSO IN A MOMENT --I MEAN BY THE ADMINISTRATION, NOT BY PEOPLE, BUT BY THE ADMINISTRATION --WE ARE ALSO IN A MOMENT WERE ONE OF THE OTHER KEY PRINCIPLES OF AMERICA, THE WELCOMING OF , YOU KNOW, BRINGING ME YOUR TIRED AND HUDDLED MASSES, IS ALSO UNDER THREAT.

AS PART OF YOUR COLLECTION HERE, YOU ALSO HAVE A MODEL OF THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

IT IS THE ONE THAT WE KNOW WAS DESIGNED BY THE FRENCH DESIGNER THAT WAS PRESENTED TO THE UNITED STATES IN 1884.

LET'S NOT FORGET THAT SHE STANDS ON BROKEN CHAINS.

TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS.

WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THAT TODAY IN THE CONTEXT OF THE IDEA OF MIGRATION AND REFUGEE AND ASYLUM?

>> THE ROLE OF THE SMITHSONIAN IS TO GIVE YOU DIFFERENT LENSES INTO A SUBJECT.

TO GIVE YOU MORE COMPLEXITY.

ON THE ONE HAND, WHEN YOU TAKE THAT, THAT REALLY WAS A GIFT FROM FRANCE TO THE UNITED STATES .

WE NOW SEE IT AS A SYMBOL OF IMMIGRATION.

SOMETHING THAT HAS GREETED SO MANY IMMIGRANTS COMING INTO NEW YORK HARBOR.

THAT IS UNBELIEVABLY IMPORTANT AND VERY, VERY POWERFUL.

BUT IT IS ALSO THE FACT THAT SHE IS STANDING ON BROKEN CHAINS.

IT WAS REALLY GIVEN TO US BY FRANCE TO CELEBRATE THE FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES ABOLISHED SLAVERY.

IN MANY WAYS, WHAT I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND IS MY GUESS, IT IS A STORY OF IMMIGRATION THAT RAISES FUNDAMENTAL CUSHIONS ABOUT HOW WE ARE AS A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS AND WHAT THAT MEANS, BUT IT ALSO HELPS US UNDERSTAND THAT SLAVERY WAS SO CENTRAL THAT EVEN THE FRENCH SAID, WE CELEBRATE AMERICA BECAUSE THEY TOOK THAT AMAZING STEP TO ABOLISH SLAVERY IN 1865.

>> LET ME KNOW BRING UP SOME OF THE INVECTIVES, IF I COULD.

FROM THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. "

THE SMITHSONIAN IS OUT OF CONTROL WHERE EVERYTHING DISCUSSED IS HOW HORRIBLE OUR COUNTRY IS, HOW BAD SLAVERY WAS. "

RESPOND.

>> I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU GO THROUGH THE MISSONI AND, AS I DO ALMOST EVERY DAY, AND YOU LOOK AT THE STORIES WE TELL , IT IS A COMPLEX STORY, BUT A STORY THAT CELEBRATES AMERICA IN MANY WAYS, BUT ALSO ARGUES THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HELPING A NATION REALIZE IT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

THAT PEOPLE HAVE STRUGGLED TO END SLAVERY.

STRUGGLED TO MAKE SURE THERE WAS FAIRNESS IN TERMS OF ISSUES OF GENDER.

SO FOR ME, IT REALLY IS NOT SAYING WE ARE TRYING TO CRITICIZE AMERICA OR SAY WHAT A HORRIBLE PLACE, WE ARE SIMPLY SAYING , YOU CELEBRATE AMERICA BECAUSE, IN SOME WAYS, AMERICA HAS GRAPPLED WITH SOME OF THE GREATEST CHALLENGES IT HAS FACED.

FOR ME, WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT I BELIEVE THAT AMERICANS ARE THIS AMAZINGLY BRAVE PEOPLE WHO DEFEATED AND THE LIKE, AND IT SCARES ME WHEN PEOPLE AREN'T BRAVE ENOUGH TO FACE THEIR HISTORY.

IN SOME WAYS, YOU HAVE TO FACE IT ANYWAY.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS NO WAY OF RUNNING AWAY FROM THE IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION OR THE IMPACT OF LABOR ISSUES .

FOR ME, IT IS REALLY AN OPPORTUNITY TO BASICALLY SAY, LET US UNDERSTAND AMERICA .

WE CELEBRATE, WE COMMEMORATE, BUT THE GOAL IS TO UNDERSTAND.

YOU CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND IT WHEN YOU GRAPPLE WITH THE COMPLICITY OF WHO WE ONCE WERE.

IT SHAPES WHO WE ARE TODAY.

AND HOPEFULLY CAN.

US TOWARDS A BETTER FUTURE.

>> IT IS HARD.

A CHALLENGE FOR YOU.

YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE CROSSHAIRS.

THE CECCONI AND HAS BEEN IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

THERE WAS AN EXECUTIVE ORDER BY PRESIDENT TRUMP ACCUSING THE SMITHSONIAN PROMOTING "NARRATIVES THAT PORTRAY AMERICAN AND WESTERN VALUES AS INHERENTLY HARMFUL AND OPPRESSIVE. "

AND HAS CALLED FOR AN END TO SPENDING ON PROGRAMS AND EXHIBITIONS THAT "DEGRADE SHARED AMERICAN VALUES, DIVIDE AMERICANS BY RACE, OR PROMOTE IDEOLOGIES INCONSISTENT WITH FEDERAL LAW. "

IS THAT WHAT YOU DO , SECRETARY LONNIE BUNCH?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT WE DO?

WE TRY TO TELL A COMPLICATED STORY THAT IS DRIVEN BY THE BEST NONPARTISAN SCHOLARSHIP WE HAVE.

CANDIDLY, I LEARNED WHEN EVERYBODY OFFERS CRITICISM, I LISTENED.

ARE WE DOING THE BEST WE CAN?

HOW DO WE CONVEY THE STORIES IN A WAY THAT THE PUBLIC WILL UNDERSTAND?

THE REALITY IS, THE NORTHSTAR FOR US IS THE NOTION OF HOW OUR SCHOLARSHIP HELPS AMERICA UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY, THE NUANCE AND SUBTLETY.

IT IS A HARD THING TO DO.

MANY PEOPLE WANT SIMPLE ANSWERS TO COMPLEX QUESTIONS.

OUR JOB IS TO SOMETIMES DO THAT, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, GIVE YOU QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS THAT WILL MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF WHO WE ARE AS A NATION.

I TAKE GREAT PRIDE IN WHAT THE SMITHSONIAN HAS DONE.

IT IS NOT A PLACE THAT ATTACKS AMERICA.

IT IS A PLACE THAT CELEBRATES AMERICA BY HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF WHO WE ARE.

>> YOU KNOW, I WAS STRUCK BY SOME OF THE RESEARCH I READ.

WE SPOKE ABOUT A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP I BELIEVE YOU SHOWED HIM AROUND THE SMITHSONIAN.

YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE WITH HIM THEN SOME OF THESE POSTS WOULD SUGGEST ON TRUTH SOCIAL, OR SOME OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDER WRITINGS, OR SOME OF THE THINGS SOME OF US, WHO LIEUTENANTS RIGHT, LIKE WHO IS BASICALLY SAYING, WE WISH TO BE ASSURED THAT NONE OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE SMITHSONIAN MUSEUMS IS CONFUSED ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN AMONG THE GREATEST FORCES FOR GOOD IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

TELL ME HOW YOUR ACTUAL MEETING WITH TRUMP AT THE SMITHSONIAN WENT.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A TOUR I GAVE HIM OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY AND CULTURE WERE I WAS THE FOUNDING DIRECTOR.

CANDIDLY, IT WAS A TOUR WHERE WE GRAPPLED WITH THE CHALLENGES , AND HE CAME OUT SAYING IT WAS A GOOD EXPERIENCE.

AND SO, IN MANY WAYS, I FELT THAT PART OF THE JOB OF THE SMITHSONIAN IS TO GIVE EVERYBODY AN OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE, TO BE EDUCATED, TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

I THINK HE LEARNED SOMETHING NEW AS HE WALKED THROUGH THE MUSEUM.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY THE SMITHSONIAN VERSUS THE ADMINISTRATION.

ALL I'M TRYING TO DO IS TO SAY THAT WE WANT TO HELP AMERICA, AND WE ARE DOING THE BEST WE CAN BY BEING NONPARTISAN AND REALLY BEING DRIVEN BY THE BEST SCHOLARSHIP.

>> AND HOW IS IT GOING, THE EXHIBIT?

ARE YOU GETTING FLOODS AND FLOODS OF CROWDS AND THINGS?

I ALSO WANT TO ASK YOU HOW THIS CAREFUL LINE YOU HAVE TO TREAD AS THE LEADER OF THIS GREAT CULTURAL INSTITUTION AT THIS TIME , HOW HAS IT BEEN AFFECTING YOU?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THE SMITHSONIAN HAS SOME OF THE BEST ATTENDANCE IT HAS EVER HAD IN RECENT YEARS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE GOING TO SEE THE EXHIBITIONS, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO UNDERSTAND AMERICA THROUGH DIFFERENT LENSES.

YOU KNOW, FOR ME, I AM LUCKY, BECAUSE I GET TO WORK WITH 7000 GIFTED PUBLIC SERVANTS EVERY DAY WHOSE JOB IT IS, WHETHER THEY ARE SCHOLARS OR EDUCATORS OR DESIGNERS, THEIR JOB IS SIMPLY TO SAY, WE WANT TO HELP THE NATION BETTER UNDERSTAND ITSELF.

AND THEY DO IT WITH AMAZING DEDICATION.

SO WHENEVER I FEEL, OH MY GOODNESS, I AM BEING ATTACKED, I GO TO THE RESERVOIR THAT IS THE SMITHSONIAN.

THE STAFF, THE HISTORY OF THE CECCONI AND THAT FOR 180 YEARS, THE SMITHSONIAN HAS GRAPPLED WITH SCIENCE, ART, HISTORY, CULTURE IN A WAY TO HELP AMERICANS DIP INTO THAT AND BETTER UNDERSTAND THEMSELVES.

THAT KEEPS ME GOING NO MATTER WHAT.

>> YOU ARE SO DEVOTED AND PASSIONATE.

THE NEW YORK TIMES IS WRITTEN THAT , YOU KNOW, THE AMERICAN ASPIRATIONS EXHIBIT THAT YOU CURATED WILL PROBABLY BE THE LAST EXHIBIT YOU WILL CURATE.

QUOTING YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, I MAY NOT CURATE ANOTHER EXHIBITION VERSUS HOW LONG I WILL STAY IN SECRETARY.

THEY THINK THAT IS A DISTINCTION.

>> OKAY.

>> YOU KNOW.

I DON'T HAVE MUCH TIME ANYMORE.

>> THAT IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO GET AT.

>> THE REALITY IS I HAVE BEEN SECRETARY FOR SEVEN YEARS.

THIS IS MY 37th YEAR AT THE SMITHSONIAN.

IT IS A PLACE A LOT BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN MY FAMILY AND THE NEW YORK YANKEES.

OTHER THAN THAT, THE SMITHSONIAN IS WHAT I CARE ABOUT.

I AM COMMITTED TO DOING EVERYTHING I CAN TO HELP THE SMITHSONIAN CONTINUE TO BUILD ON THE AMAZING TRADITIONS OF 180 YEARS.

AT SOME POINT, I WILL STEP DOWN.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT AS LONG AS I CAN HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE STAFF, OF THE BOARD OF REGENTS, AND REALLY DO THE WORK THE AMERICAN PUBLIC ENJOYS AND ENGAGED BY, I AM VERY LUCKY TO BE THE SECRETARY OF THE SMITHSONIAN.

>> AND WE ARE LUCKY TO HAVE YOU ON OUR PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HELPING US ALL CELEBRATE THE IMPORTANT DIVERSITY OF AMERICA AT 250 YEARS OLD.

LONNIE BUNCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> MY GREAT PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

>> NOW TO A NOVEL THAT REFLECTS ON ART, THE ARTIST AND THE THINGS THAT SOMETIMES GET IN THE WAY .

CONTRAPPOSTO IS THE LATEST PROJECT BY AUTHOR DAVE EGGERS.

IT IS A COMING-OF-AGE NOVEL AND A LOVE STORY THAT ASKED ABOUT THE VALUE WE PLACE ON HUMAN CREATIVITY IN A WORLD ADJUSTING FOR A. I. I SAT DOWN WITH EGGERS IN LONDON AT HIS PUBLISHER'S HEADQUARTERS TO TALK ABOUT THE NOVEL IN THE PREMIUM HE PUTS ON SLOW ART, A. K. A. , READING AND WRITING.

>> WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> TELL ME, CONTRAPPOSTO, AM I PRONOUNCING IT RIGHT?

>> AS CLOSE AS I CAN GET.

>> WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

>> I WENT TO ART SCHOOL FOR A BIT, AND IN ART SCHOOL, FIRST DAY, LIFE DRAWING.

THE MOST COMMON POSE, MICHELANGELO'S DAVID.

YOU ARE IN BALANCE, LEANING ON ONE FOOT, TILTING SHOULDERS THIS WAY AND HIPS ANOTHER WAY.

A DRAMATIC NARRATIVE POSE.

>> I READ ONE OF THE REVIEWS.

THEY'RE QUITE FUNNY.

YOU GO OFF ON ALL YOUR RANTS .

ONE OF THE REVIEWS YOU INVITED THE INTERVIEWER, THE CRITIC, TO PAINT OR DRAW WITH YOU.

>> WE STILL DO A LOT OF IT.

WE BRING MODELS INTO OUR OFFICE .

WE HIRE THEM.

ALL OF US ARE SCHOOL REFUGEES THAT WORK AT A COMPANY DRAW FROM LIFE.

IT IS A JOYOUS MEDITATIVE KIND OF THING.

NOTHING COMES OF IT.

NOBODY SEES THESE DRAWINGS.

BUT WE HAVE TWO OR THREE HOURS OF.

>> DOES IT GET YOU INTO THE MOOD FOR THIS PARTICULAR NOVEL ABOUT BEING AN ARTIST BUT >> YEAH.

I PICKED UP MY LIFE DRAWING AGAIN.

I HAD NOT DONE SO MUCH SINCE OUR SCHOOL.

BUT I HAD TO REFRESH MY MEMORY.

BUT IT HAS BEEN SOMETHING I HAVE BEEN DOING A COUPLE TIMES A YEAR EVER SINCE I WAS 22.

>> FINALLY YOU HAVE WRITTEN THE NOVEL ABOUT THE ARTIST .

WILL GET INTO THE STORY.

I FIRST WANTED TO READ A LITTLE BIT OF A PASSAGE ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF DRAWING.

>> THIS IS CRICKET, A YOUNG ART STUDENT.

>> AND THE PROTAGONIST.

>> BECAUSE HE HAD HAD AN HOUR, THOUGH, CRICKET HAD TIME TO SKETCH AND CORRECT THE SKETCH THEN REFINE .

HE MEASURED PROPORTIONS AND IMPROVED.

HEBREW MORE CONFIDENT WITH EACH PASS ON HIS DRAWING AND REALIZED, ALMOST EMBARRASSED, TO FINALLY REALIZE THAT MUCH OF THE RIGHTNESS OF THE DRAWING, OF ANY DRAWING, CAME THROUGH TIME AND DILIGENCE AND DISCERNMENT.

IT CAME FROM WORK AND HUMILITY.

BEING ABLE TO RECOGNIZE IF SOMETHING IS WRONG IN KNOWING HOW TO ADDRESS IT.

THERE WAS ROOM FOR TALENT, YES, TALENT WAS MUCH OF IT, BUT HE WAS SURPRISED BY THE ROLE OF SHEER DOGGEDNESS.

THE DETERMINATION TO GET IT RIGHT.

>> I AM IMPRESSED BY , WHEN YOU READ THAT PARAGRAPH, YOU REALLY ARE PROMOTING THE ART OF SLOW DOING THINGS WELL , HAVING THE PATIENCE TO ACCOMPLISH, WHETHER IT IS WRITING OR DRAWING.

IT STANDS IN DEEP CONFLICT WITH EVERYTHING SO FAST RIGHT NOW.

>> I THINK RIGHT NOW, IF YOU TEACH KIDS THE SAME METHODS, YOU KNOW, YOU LEARN HOW TO DRAW WITH PROPORTION AND SPENDING HOURS, WE WOULD STILL SPEND THREE HOURS ON ONE POSE TO GET IT RIGHT.

ANYBODY CAN BE TAUGHT ACADEMIC, ACCURATE DRAWING.

REALLY, THE ABILITY TO SEE TRUTHFULLY.

I THINK, YES, SUCH AN ANECDOTE TO THIS IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION.

BUT WE TEACH IT WITH YOUNG WRITERS TOO.

DILIGENT, HUMILITY, REVISE, REVISE.

>> GIVE ME YOUR ANTI-A.

I. RANT.

WHAT YOU SAY TO A 10-YEAR-OLD, FOR INSTANCE, WHO WANTS TO BE A WRITER?

>> YOU HAVE A 10-YEAR-OLD WHO IS UNPRECEDENTED IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

NEVER ANYONE LIKE THAT PERSON.

CAN'T BE.

THEY HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY.

THEY HAVE SEEN THE WORLD ONLY THE WAY THEY CAN SEE IT.

SO TO THINK ABOUT THAT ONE-OF-A- KIND IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY PERSON, SHOPPING THEIR VISION OUT TO A MACHINE, HOW TRAGIC THAT IS.

BEYOND DYSTOPIAN.

IT CANNOT BE ALLOWED.

NOT EVEN ONE OUNCE OF A. I. CAN BE ALLOWED IN THE HUMANITIES AND YOUTH EDUCATION.

>> THAT IS A PRETTY BOLD DECLARATION.

I ABSOLUTELY GET WHERE COMES FROM BECAUSE YOU ARE A CREATIVE .

BECAUSE WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS AND NO MACHINE CAN DO WHAT WE CAN DO.

BUT ARE YOU SWIMMING AGAINST THE TIDE?

>> I THINK THIS SUMMER IS THE SUMMER.

IF YOU TALK TO TEACHERS, EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO GET POLICIES IN PLACE AND GET IT STRAIGHT BEFORE THE FALL.

MOST TEACHERS I TALKED TO OUR ABSOLUTISTS.

NO AMOUNT OF A. I. IS SAFE.

THEY SPENT 20 HOURS A WEEK POLICING THEIR KIDS NOW.

DID THEY CHEAT?

IT HAS MADE PUBLIC EDUCATION TEACHERS, THEIR JOB SO MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

IT ENGENDERS SUSPICION AND THIS UNLEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

IT MOST AFFECTS KIDS WHO ARE LEARNING THE SECOND AND THIRD LANGUAGE.

WHO ARE MOST INCLINED TO CHEAT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO REACH GRADE LEVEL QUICKER?

FOR EVERY ONE OF THOSE STUDENTS, THEY BECOME VOICELESS.

WE ARE ABOUT TO LOSE AN ENTIRE GENERATION WHO WILL NEVER SPEAK AUTHENTICALLY IN THEIR OWN VOICE AND LEFT ME SAY, NONE AT ALL CASE THROUGH THE LAST YEAR IN COLLEGE.

>> K THROUGH THE LAST YEAR IN COLLEGE.

>> IT SOLVES NOTHING.

IT WAS NEVER A PROBLEM THIS TOLL --TOOL SALT.

WERE DOING QUITE WELL.

IN THIS COUNTRY, WE'VE HAD A FEW GOOD WRITERS.

WHAT WAS THERE TO SOLVE?

NOTHING.

IT IMPROVES NOTHING IN THE HUMANITIES.

>> NOW LET'S GET TO THE STORY OF CONTRAPPOSTO.

IT IS CRICKET AND OLYMPIA.

THEY MEET AS YOUNG KIDS AT SCHOOL AND WANT TO BE ARTIST.

IT IS THAT JOURNEY PLUS THERE A RELATIONSHIP OR GIVE US A LITTLE SYNOPSIS.

>> THEY MEET WHEN HE IS NINE AND SHE IS 10.

SHE IS THIS EXOTIC, MUCH MORE WORLDLY, ELOQUENT , KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON.

SHE GIVES HIM HIS FIRST PUBLIC COMMISSION, WHICH IS TO DEFACE A PUBLIC PLACE , PLAY STRUCTURE WITH HORRIBLE THINGS.

BUT THEY SAY THESE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT HE WRITES THEM IN OLD ENGLISH CALLIGRAPHY TO MAKE IT ARTFUL.

TO HIM, THAT IS HIS FIRST PLATFORM.

HIS FIRST AUTHENTIC OUTSIDE AUDIENCE AND FOREVER AFTER THAT, HE IS DEVOTED TO HER.

>> DOES HE GET --WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM FOR DEFACING?

IT HAS PORNOGRAPHIC .

NOT NICE THINGS.

>> DON'T KNOW FOCUS AND TV.

PRETTY PORNOGRAPHIC.

HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT ANY OF THESE WORDS MEAN.

HE IS SO NAIVE.

>> SHE DOES, THOUGH.

>> SHE KNOWS MUCH MORE, ALWAYS.

>> WHY IS SHE EGGING HIM ON?

>> SHE IS MORE OF A CURATOR.

FOREVER AFTER.

IT GOES THROUGH 66 YEARS IN THEIR LIVES.

SHE IS ALWAYS TRYING TO PULL HIM OUT OF OBSCURITY, HIS STUBBORN UNWILLINGNESS TO COMPROMISE EVEN A LITTLE BIT, AND TO GIVE HIM A GALLERY SHOW OR BRING HIM INTO THE PROFESSIONAL ART WORLD.

EVERY TINY LITTLE CONCESSION HE CAN'T MAKE, HE CAN'T COUNTENANCE THESE LITTLE COMPROMISES.

IT FRUSTRATES HER TO NO END.

BUT FOREVER, THEY ARE STILL COMMITTED AND DEVOTED TO EACH OTHER.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN, OBVIOUSLY, A NUMBER OF NOVELS.

YOU HAVE SAID THAT , YOU KNOW, COMPARED TO NONFICTION, IT IS MUCH MORE FUN.

TELL ME ABOUT, ESPECIALLY TODAY MAYBE, WRITING NOVELS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I SORT OF ALTERNATE.

I RATE NON---I WRITE NONFICTION MOSTLY OUT OF A SENSE OF OUTRAGE.

NOT A GOOD WAY TO SPEND EVERY DAY.

OF COURSE, NONFICTION SLOG OF YOU WRITE FOR WORDS, YOU HAVE TO CHECK THAT FOR, YOU HAVE TO CHECK.

FICTION IS JUST FLUID , LIBERATED, TOTALLY UNTETHERED.

I THINK YOU HAD TO CHECK THREE FACTS AT THIS POINT.

LIKELY IN THE GAME I REFERENCED TURNER AND SOMEBODY SAID, THERE IS MORE TURNERS AT THE BRITISH MUSEUM, OR AT THE TAPE THEN THE BRITISH MUSEUM.

THAT IS THE ONLY FACT I REMEMBER CHECKING.

>> THAT WAS TRUE.

>> YEAH.

AS A BACKPACKER, I SAW THE TURNERS IN THE BRITISH MUSEUM.

I GUESS --THAT WAS THE ONLY REAL CHANGE MADE ON A FACTUAL LEVEL.

BUT IT IS SO MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.

AND TO WAKE UP WITHOUT AN ULCER.

TO WAKE UP WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT TRUMP.

TO WAKE UP WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT DESTRUCTION A CERTAIN TECH COMPANIES.

THIS WAS A VERY HEALING BATH.

>> IT IS HARD TO WAKE UP WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT TRUMP, BECAUSE HE IS EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME ALWAYS.

YOU DID WRITE ONE OF YOUR PREVIOUS BOOKS, CAPTAIN AND THE GLORY.

WE DID INTERVIEW REMOTELY.

IT WAS ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS ABOUT TRUMP I HAVE EVER READ.

IT WAS INCREDIBLY WELL CONSTRUCTED IN TERMS OF IT, NOT JUST BEING SATIRE, BUT THAT WHOLE DYNAMIC OF THE MASTER AND EVERYBODY HE IS TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO RULE.

REMIND US ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO SAY.

IS IT WORSE IN 2.

0 THEN YOU COULD HAVE IMAGINED?

BECAUSE THIS WAS WRITTEN IN 1.

0.

>> I WROTE THAT THINKING THIS WOULD MAKE A DENT IN HIS SUPPORTERS OR PRESIDENCY.

SOMEHOW, THIS SATIRE DID NOT END TRUMP'S RAIN.

IT WAS VERY HUMBLING.

HE GOT ELECTED AGAIN.

WHICH I NEVER WOULD'VE THOUGHT IN 1 MILLION YEARS.

I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED IN MY COUNTRYMEN.

IT IS STILL BAFFLING TO ME.

BUT I DO THINK WE ARE ON THE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME LEFT.

MIDTERMS COME, IMPEACHMENT AFTER THAT, CRIPPLED SECOND HALF OF HIS TERM.

WE DON'T HAVE LONG TO WAIT.

>> YOU HAVE THE WHOLE THING MAPPED OUT.

>> EVERY DATE.

I KEEP A CALENDAR.

WE ARE GOING TO PUBLISH IT OF EVERY DATE FROM HERE ON OUT.

SO IT WILL KIND OF MIRROR THE SECOND HALF OF HIS FIRST TERM OR HE WAS JUST FIGHTING LAWSUITS AND SUBPOENAS.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU WRITE TODAY IF YOU WERE WRITING THE CAPTAIN AND THE GLORY WITH 2.

0 ?

>> REALLY WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO WRITE MORE ABOUT IS UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS HIDING IN CHURCHES.

I WAS WORKING ON A BOOK CALLED THE RECENT HISTORY OF FAMILIES HIDING IN CHURCHES, BECAUSE IN BOTH TERMS, IT IS THE LAST PLACE I. C. E. WILL GO.

EVERY CHURCH IN RURAL COUNTIES ALL OVER AMERICA FAMILIES ARE LIVING IN CHURCHES.

IT IS SO UN-AMERICAN.

SO PROFOUNDLY SAD THAT WE LIVE UNDER THIS VEIL OF HATE AND SUSPICION , AND WE ARE OKAY WITH FAMILIES HIDING FOR YEARS AT A TIME.

>> AND THEN YOU WRITE THE SORT OF REDEMPTIVE BOOK ABOUT JOY AND ART IN RELATIONSHIPS AND YOUR LATEST BOOK CONTRAPPOSTO.

>> YOU HAVE TO, I THINK, GIVE A LITTLE BIT TO THAT , TO THE OUTRAGES OF THE DAY, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO RESERVE SOME TIME , SOME SPACE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT YOU LOVE.

SOMETIMES WHAT YOU HATE, WHAT YOU WANT TO CHANGE, AND THIS IS REALLY JUST A CELEBRATION OF ART AND THE THING I GREW UP MOST LOVING.

>> WATERY --ONE OF YOUR OTHER MAJOR BOOKS WAS A CIRCLE TAKING ON THE IDEA OF TECH AND US BEING RULED BY TECH.

I THINK IT WAS MADE INTO A FILM WITH TOM HANKS.

>> YES.

>> IT WAS HOW YOU GET YOURSELF OUT OF THIS CONTROL.

I WAS KINDA STRUCK BY HOW YOU STILL ONLY HAVE A FLIP PHONE AS FAR AS I CAN GATHER.

HOW YOU TAKE YOURSELF OFF TO YOUR BOAT IN SAN FRANCISCO TO WRITE SO YOU'RE NOT TEMPTED.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR WORKING HABITS, YOUR MENTAL HEALTH, YOUR RESISTANCE TO TAX.

>> I WAS ENJOYING --TECH.

I WAS ENJOYING LIFE BEFORE THIS IS COMING ABOUT.

NONE OF THIS WAS SOLVING ANYTHING I NEEDED TO FALL.

NOTHING ON A SMART PHONE I WANTED.

I WOULD USE ONE IF THERE WAS SOMETHING ON IT I NEEDED.

BUT THERE ISN'T.

AND SO, YEAH, I HAVE THE FLIP PHONE.

IT DOESN'T WORK ABROAD.

IT IS JUST A ROCK IN MY POCKET RIGHT NOW.

BUT I DO HAVE TO BE REALLY FAR AWAY FROM THE INTERNET TO GET ANY WORK DONE.

IF I AM TEMPTED OR HAVE IT IN A HOTEL --TONIGHT I WILL HAVE THE INTERNET AND SPENT FOUR HOURS ON YOUTUBE.

SO I CAN'T BE TRUSTED AROUND THE INTERNET.

BUT MOSTLY, I NEED ISOLATION TO BE FREE FOR EIGHT HOURS A DAY TO GET ANYTHING DONE.

THAT IS ABOUT EIGHT HOURS ON THE BOAT IN THE WRITING POSITION TO GET MAYBE 45 MINUTES OF ACTUAL WORK DONE.

THAT IS MY RATIO.

VERY SAD.

>> EIGHT HOURS TO GET 45 MINUTES.

>> SOMETIMES MAYBE AN HOUR.

YOU DO NEED TO SORT OF GIVE YOURSELF SELFISHLY THAT AMOUNT OF TIME.

>> AND YET, TO BE FAIR, WRITING HAS ALWAYS BEEN CALLED A LONELY JOB.

A LONELY BUSINESS.

A LONELY CRAFT, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SIT AROUND , UNLIKE FOR A TV PROGRAM WITH THE WRITERS ROOM AND ALL THE REST.

>> IT IS LONELY , AND THEN YOU GET IN COMMUNITY.

I COME HOME, AND MY WIFE WHO IS A NOVELIST, SHE HAS TO READ WHAT I WROTE.

IF SHE LIKES IT, FOR MANY YEARS, FOR DECADES, THE NEXT READER WAS MY OLD HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER.

HE GOT STUCK READING EVERY MANUSCRIPT AND UNTIL HE PASSED HE WAS STILL MY TEACHER.

AFTER THAT, THERE IS ALWAYS A COMMUNITY OF WRITERS REACH OUT TO EACH OTHER AND TALK THROUGH THINGS IF YOU'RE STUCK.

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE QUITE AS LONELY AND SOLITARY AS WE --AS MYTH WOULD PROVIDE.

>> I MEAN, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING SOUNDS REALLY HOPEFUL.

IT DOES.

IT SOUNDS HOPEFUL.

IT SOUNDS FULL OF CONTEXT, POSSIBILITY, FULL OF JOY, FULL OF COMMUNITY.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT MUST RAISE YOUR OPTIMISM QUOTIENT IN THE WORLD WHICH OBVIOUSLY YOU FIND QUITE DIFFICULT TO NAVIGATE POLITICALLY RIGHT NOW.

>> I GO FROM HERE TO THE MINISTRY OF STORIES, A WRITING CENTER FOR KIDS.

EVERY DAY, INCLUDING TODAY, THERE WILL BE A FIELD TRIP WITH KIDS OF ALL AGES GATHERING TOGETHER WITH TUTORS, ADULTS, AND THEY WORK ONE-ON-ONE, HANDWRITING POEMS AND STORIES THEY WILL PUBLISH IN BEAUTIFUL BOOKS.

OVER THE YEARS, ALL OF THESE WRITING CENTERS AND STARTED IN SAN FRANCISCO, THERE ARE 74 AROUND THE WORLD NOW .

WE HAVE PUBLISH ABOUT 10,000 BOOKS OVER THAT TIME.

ALL WRITTEN BY KIDS.

NOW WE HAVE A REPOSITORY CALLED THE INTERNATIONAL LIBRARY OF YOUNG AUTHORS IN SAN FRANCISCO.

ALL PICKS --BOOKS WRITTEN BY KIDS.

IF YOU GIVE THEM THE SPACE AND ENCOURAGEMENT AND LIFT UP THAT WORK AND AMPLIFY AND PUT IT IN A BOOK, AND A LIBRARY, KIDS WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE TO WORK WITH THE HUMAN.

THEY WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE, THEY WILL RUN THROUGH WALLS TO BE PUBLISHED.

BUT IF WE ASSUME ALL THEY WANT IS DIGITAL MEDIA, THEN THEY GET IT AND HAVE NO CHOICE.

WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM A CHOICE.

THEY DO WANT HUMAN CONTACT.

THEY DO WANT TO WRITE.

THEY DO WANT THEIR AUTHENTIC VOICES HEARD.

BUT WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM THAT CHANCE AND BE SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH THEM SHINING A LIGHT ON THAT EVERY TIME.

WE HAVE BEEN AT IT FOR 25 YEARS.

I GUARANTEE THEY WANT IT.

ALWAYS THEY WILL CHOOSE THE HUMAN.

THEY WILL EVEN CHOOSE PAPER.

WE HAVE HANDWRITING.

THERE WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE THAT.

BUT WE HAVE GOT TO GIVE THEM A CHOICE.

>> I HAVE TO ASK YOU, THERE ARE MANY REGULATIONS AFOOT IN AUSTRALIA AND BRITAIN AND EVERYWHERE TO TRY TO KEEP UNDER 16 OFF SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> ALL FOR IT.

>> THEY WILL JUST MY WORKAROUNDS?

>> THEY WILL SOMETIMES FIND WORKAROUNDS.

MY KIDS ARE 17 AND 20 AND TELL ME ABOUT EVERY WORKAROUND.

BUT WE DO HAVE TO PROTECT THEM.

LIKELY PROTECTIVE FROM SO MANY THINGS WE KNOW ARE DANGEROUS.

CIGARETTES, ALCOHOL, YOU KNOW, STEROIDS, VAPING.

WHATEVER.

WE ALL HAVE REGULATIONS BUT EVERYTHING BECAUSE WE CARE ABOUT THEM.

FOR SOME REASON, THIS IS THE WILD WEST.

WE CAN'T RESTRICT THEM WHEN THIS THING IS TAKING SO MANY YOUNG LIVES.

IT HAS MADE SO MANY MILLIONS OF KIDS DEEPLY DEPRESSED.

IF YOU TALK TO ANY TEENAGER, MY SON WAS JUST ON A TWO WEEK RETREAT, NO PHONES FOR ANYBODY, BEST TWO WEEKS OF HIS LIFE, HE SAID.

NOBODY ELSE WAS ONLINE.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

THEY WANT THE ADULTS IN THEIR LIVES TO MAKE A RULE TO PROTECT THEM.

IT IS OUR JOB TO DO THAT.

WHEN WE SEE --SEED OUR RESPONSE ABILITY, THIS IS A GENERATION AT STAKE.

WE'VE GOT TO MAKE A STAND ACCORDING TO ALL THE SCIENCE, ALL THE MEDICAL STUDIES.

EVERY LITTLE BIT SAYS THAT EVERY EXTRA MINUTE ON SCREENS IS HARMFUL.

>> WELL, THEY WILL BE READING CONTRAPPOSTO .

REGENERATIVE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO A NEW DOCUMENTARY SERIES THROWING FRESH LESSONS FROM THE MOST DEVASTATING CONFLICT IN MODERN HISTORY.

>> FOR SIX DARK YEARS, THE WORLD WAS ON FIRE.

A CONFLICT THAT TOPPLED EMPIRES AND RESHAPED THE MODERN WORLD.

NO PART OF THE GLOBE WAS UNTOUCHED.

NO LIFE UNCHANGED.

THE SECOND WORLD WAR IS THE LARGEST EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY.

>> WORLD WAR II WITH TOM HANKS TAKES VIEWERS ACROSS THE FULL SCOPE OF THE CONFLICT FROM THE RISE OF FASCISM IN EUROPE TO THE FALL OF BERLIN AND ONTO PEARL HARBOR, HIROSHIMA AND THE AMERICANA TO FOLLOW.

HE CONTINUES HIS VAST CONTRIBUTION TO WORLD WAR II HISTORY.

FOR INSTANCE, WITH FILMS LIKE SAVING PRIVATE RYAN .

JON MEACHAM IS AN EXECUTIVE PRODUCER ON THE SERIES AND SPOKE TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE PARALLELS HE SEES BETWEEN THEN AND NOW.

>> WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU ARE THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, ONE OF THE STARS OF THE 20 PART SERIES ON WORLD WAR II WITH TOM HANKS.

TELL ME WHY THIS IS A GOOD TIME TO BE RE-EXAMINING WORLD WAR II.

>> AS TOM SAYS IN THE NARRATION, IT IS THE LARGEST EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY.

IT BEGINS, AS YOU KNOW, IN THE 1930s.

WE CAN ARGUE IT BEGINS EVEN BEFORE THAT BECAUSE OF THE FALLOUT FROM THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

BUT IT BEGINS IN A VERY FAMILIAR WAY.

THE STRONG VERSUS THE WEAK.

A DESIRE FOR TERRITORY.

A DESIRE FOR NATIONALISTIC CONTROL , FOR RACIAL SUPERIORITY .

AND IT ENDS WITH THE CAPACITY FOR US TO DESTROY ALL OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION WITH THE SPLITTING OF THE ADAM.

--ATOM .

YOU HAD SO MANY STORIES AND INSTANCES OF HOW OUR WORLD NOW WORKS FROM THE AMERICAN PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY TO THE IDEALS OF DEMOCRACY VERSUS AUTOCRACY , AND THE ESSENTIAL POINT OF NEVER AGAIN.

NEVER ALLOWING THE ATTEMPTED EXTERMINATION OF AN ENTIRE PEOPLE.

>> YOU SAY IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT EVENT MAYBE IN HUMAN HISTORY, MODERN HISTORY.

WHAT DIDN'T REALLY CHANGE?

>> IT ENDED AUTOCRACY AT THE HEART OF EUROPE.

IT ENDED THE FASCIST REGIMES OF GERMANY AND JAPAN AND ITALY.

IT SHOWED THAT DEMOCRACIES , FOR ALL OF THEIR IMPERFECTIONS, FOR ALL OF THE SLOW 18TH-CENTURY CHECKS AND BALANCES, DEMOCRACIES CAN RISE TO THE OCCASION WHEN CALLED UPON.

>> DO YOU THINK NOW THAT EVERYBODY BELIEVES DEMOCRACY IS JUST GOING TO COAST AND WERE NEVER GOING TO HAVE RICES OF AUTOCRACY AGAIN?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY COASTING INVOLVED AT ALL IN HISTORY AT ANY POINT.

BUT I DO THINK THE SECOND WORLD WAR SHOWS THAT WHEN THE DEMOCRACIES ARE AROUSED, WE CAN PREVAIL.

>> IT IS EASY TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE TRUE COST OF THOSE YEARS.

THE HUMAN COST.

WE SAW HUMAN BEINGS AT THEIR ABSOLUTE WORST , BUT WE ALSO SAW THEM AT THEIR ABSOLUTE BEST.

WILLING TO SACRIFICE THEIR LIVES SO OTHERS MAY LIVE.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON HAD A STORY.

THESE ARE THE STORIES THAT MAKE US WHO WE ARE.

>> IT ENDED 80 YEARS AGO, WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL SO FASCINATED?

>> YOU KNOW, SPIELBERG OR HANKS ONCE SAID IT WAS GOOD VERSUS EVIL AND GRANDPA ONE --WON.

I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING TO THAT.

AS YOU KNOW, YOU AND I GREW UP PROXIMATE TO THE WAR.

BOTH MY GRANDFATHERS FOUGHT.

ALMOST EVERYONE, BECAUSE OF THE SIZE OF THE ARMED FORCES, HAD SOME LIVING CONNECTION TO THAT WAR.

I THINK IT CONTINUES TO BE THIS MOMENT WHERE IT FEELS , I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO.

OUT --POINT OUT THE FEELING DOESN'T MATCH REALITY, IT FEELS AS IF EVERYTHING WORKED .

THE PROBLEM, OF COURSE, WITH THAT, IN THE COMPLICATION, WHICH GOES YOUR QUESTION A MOMENT AGO, IS I THINK IF YOU ASK MANY AMERICANS WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WE EVER DID , SOME MIGHT SAY THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY, SOME MIGHT SAY WINNING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

BUT LET'S ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT WE ONLY DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY WHEN GERMANY DECLARED WAR ON US .

FIVE DAYS AFTER PEARL HARBOR.

AS CHURCHILL SAID, YOU CAN ALWAYS COUNT ON THE AMERICAS TO DO THE RIGHT THING ONCE THEY HAVE EXHAUSTED EVERY OTHER POSSIBILITY.

YOU HAVE THESE FORCES WITH WHICH WE STILL CONTEND TO THIS HOUR OF NATIONALISM AT HOME, OF ISOLATIONISM, OF PROTECTIONISM, THIS IDEA OF FORTRESS AMERICA , THIS IDEA THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS ARE NOT OUR PROBLEMS, AND OUR POLITICS , EVERYTHING ABOUT OUR ECONOMIC POSITION IN THE WORLD GREW OUT OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR , AND THE TENSION BETWEEN , ARE WE GOING TO BE INTERNATIONAL OR ISOLATIONIST?

>> YOU WERE A WONDERFUL BOOK, FRANKLIN AND WINSTON.

IT IS ABOUT WINSTON CHURCHILL , LIKE A LOVE STORY.

WINSTON CHURCHILL COURTING FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND SAYING, YOU HAVE TO HELP US.

TELL US WHAT THAT COURTSHIP DID AND WHETHER THAT IS WHAT GOT THE U. S. INTO THE WAR.

>> WELL, IT HELPED.

CHURCHILL BECAUSE PRIME MINISTER ON MAY 10, 1940.

REMEMBER, HE SAID I FELT AS IF I WAS WALKING WITH DESTINY IN PREPARATION FOR THIS HOUR IN THIS TRIAL.

I WAS SURE I SHOULD NOT FAIL.

HE WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO WAS SURE HE WOULD NOT FAIL.

ROOSEVELT USED TO KEEP THE CABINET, THE CABINET MEETINGS ON FRIDAY TO GUARANTEE THEY WOULD WORK ALL WEEK .

HE RECEIVES WORD OF CHURCH HILL'S APPOINTMENT.

CHURCHILL AT THAT POINT IS 65, WHICH IN THOSE DAYS MEANT SOMETHING.

HE HAD CHANGE PARTIES THREE TIMES.

HE WAS A GRAND OLD MAN OF BRITISH POLITICS BUT SEEN AS VERY ERRATIC.

HE WAS SEEN AS A TWO-FISTED DRINKER.

HE WAS SEEN AS SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN WRONG ABOUT BIG THINGS IN BRITISH POLITICS.

FDR LOOKS AT THE NOTE AND SAYS, WELL, I GUESS WINSTON IS THE BEST MAN ENGLAND HAS, EVEN IF HE IS DRUNK HALF THE TIME.

THIS DID NOT BEGIN HUGELY WELL.

BUT WHAT CHURCHILL DID, AND HIS LAST DAUGHTER, LAST CHILD, MARY , SUMMED UP THE WHOLE PROJECT FOR ME WHEN SHE SAID, WHEN SHE THOUGHT OF PAPA AND THE PRESIDENT, SHE ALWAYS THOUGHT OF THE FRENCH PROVERB, THERE IS ALWAYS ONE WHO KISSES AND ONE WHO OFFERS THE CHEEK.

AND PAPA WAS ALWAYS KISSING AND FDR WAS ALWAYS OFFERING THE CHEEK.

CHURCHILL NEEDED TO BRING ROOSEVELT INTO THE FOLD.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED TO REMEMBER, AND WE TEND NOT TO, IS HOW MUCH WE OWE THE BRITISH .

HOW MUCH WE OWE THEM FOR STANDING BETWEEN 1 SEPTEMBER 1939 AND 12 DECEMBER 1941 .

CHURCH HILL LOOKED ACROSS THE CHANNEL AND SAID, HITLER HAS GONE THAT FAR AND WILL GO NO FARTHER.

>> FOR THE BRITS ON THE BEACH, ABSOLUTE HELL SKATE.

OBJECTED DAY AND NIGHT TO COSTAL AERIAL BOMBARDMENT.

DIVEBOMBING.

THE BRITISH TROOPS ARE JUST ON THE SAND AND EACH TIME THIS HAPPENS, THEY ALL TAKE WHATEVER THEY CAN.

THIS GOES ON HOUR AFTER HOUR AFTER HOUR.

AS THEY ARE WAITING FOR DELIVERANCE.

>> YOU AND I ARE BOTH BIOGRAPHERS.

REWRITE ABOUT THE EFFECT THAT HUMANS, THE HUMAN HAND, HAS ON HISTORY.

SOMETIMES IN THE ACADEMY , THEY THINK HISTORY IS MADE BY GREAT FORCES.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE TWO OR THREE PEOPLE AT THE CORE OF THIS.

HAD HITLER NOT COME ALONG, HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR HITLER, WOULD ALL OF THIS HAVE HAPPENED?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I DON'T THINK THERE WAS -- GERMANY WAS OBVIOUSLY REELING FROM THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

THERE WERE DEEP RESENTMENTS ABOUT THE TREATY OF ACAI.

BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING -- TREATY OF VERSAILLES.

THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT HIS POPULAR APPEAL.

THE VICIOUS COCKTAIL, IF YOU WILL, OF EVIL THAT HE MIXED AND SERVED THE CHAIRMAN PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, CHURCHILL WRITES , HE WAS ALSO A HISTORIAN, BUT WAS BETTER PEOPLE THAN EVENTS IN MANY WAYS.

HE HAS A REALLY INTERESTING PORTRAIT OF HITLER IN THE GATHERING STORM.

IT IS A TOUGH THING TO TALK ABOUT, BUT WORTH MENTIONING.

CHURCHILL SAYS HE UNDERSTOOD HITLER .

NOT LEAST BECAUSE , IF ENGLAND HAD BEEN DEFEATED AND TREATED THE WAY GERMANY WAS , HE UNDERSTOOD HOW A FIGURE LIKE HITLER COULD ARISE.

I THINK THAT HUMAN ELEMENT IS VITAL.

>> SOME OF THIS DOCUMENTARY IS SO GRUESOME THAT IT IS REALLY HARD TO WATCH.

WHY WAS THERE SUCH BRUTALITY IN WORLD WAR II?

>> IN MANY WAYS, I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT WAS NEW IN WARFARE, BUT THE MECHANIZATION OF GENOCIDE.

THE TECHNOLOGY .

WEAPONS WERE MORE SOPHISTICATED.

WEAPONS WERE DEADLIER.

AIRPOWER BROUGHT CIVILIANS, THE ROCKETS THAT THE GERMANS DEVELOPED , BROUGHT CIVILIAN POPULATIONS INTO THE CALCULUS, INTO THE FIELD OF FIRE.

I THINK TECHNOLOGY DOES WONDERFUL THINGS FOR US, BUT THE TECHNOLOGY OF WAR AND THE SPEED WITH WHICH WEAPONS CAN FIRE AND BE DEPLOYED HAS ITS DARK AND LAMENTABLE ELEMENT.

>> IN LESS THAN A MONTH, A MAJOR EUROPEAN NATION HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MAP.

IN THE FIRST 24 HOURS OF THE INVASION, THE GERMANS TAKE OUT RAILROADS, BRIDGES, AND AIRFIELDS.

THE DESTRUCTION PAVES THE WAY FOR THE ARMY TO ADVANCE DEEP INTO POLAND.

>> POLISH CIVILIANS EXPERIENCED MODERN WAR IN AN UNBELIEVABLY HORRIFYING WAY.

THEY SEE PEOPLE KILLED.

IT IS A NIGHTMARE.

>> THEY HAVE A MODERN ARMY.

THE FIFTH LARGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD.

IT IS EQUIPPED WITH MODERN TANKS, WITH ALL SORTS OF ARTILLERY AND ARMORED TRAINS.

BUT HITLER HAS BEEN PUTTING ALMOST ALL HIS RESOURCES INTO EQUIPPING THE MILITARY.

THEY WERE OUTGUNNED.

>> DESPITE THOSE ODDS, THEY ARE DETERMINED TO DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY.

>> WHAT SURPRISED YOU MAKING THIS DOCUMENTARY?

>> I AM ALWAYS SURPRISED AT THE PURE SCOPE .

THE FACT THAT NO PART OF THE GLOBE , THE SMALLEST PACIFIC ISLAND , THE LARGEST EUROPEAN NATION, IS INVOLVED AND TOUCHED BY THIS.

THE OTHER THING THAT SURPRISED ME IS THAT I AM ALWAYS DAZZLED BY WHAT THE ARSENAL OF DEMOCRACY , TO USE FDR'S PHRASE, COULD ACCOMPLISH.

WE WERE THE 17th LARGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD WHEN HITLER INVADED POLAND.

THE UNITED STATES.

AND YET, BY 1945, WE HAD SENT MILLIONS OF MEN, MILLIONS OF WOMEN HAD BEEN ENGAGED IN WAR WORK .

THE CREATION OF IMMENSE WEAPONS .

IT SET THE STAGE FOR THE CREATION OF THE GREAT POSTWAR MIDDLE-CLASS.

IT HELPED SHIFT THE SENSE OF AMERICAN REALITY THAT HELP TO MAKE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT POSSIBLE.

IT IS THE LARGEST EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY.

>> YOU TALK TO JUSTIN ABOUT HOW WE WERE ABLE TO GEAR UP SUDDENLY FROM BEING THE 17th LARGEST MILITARY, AND THIS SEEMS TO HAVE TODAY, HOW COULD WE , AND TOM HANKS STRESSES IS, HOW COULD WE SO QUICKLY START MAKING THINGS?

>> THE INGENUITY AND THE WONDERS OF CAPITALISM.

YOU KNOW, DETROIT WAS READY.

AMERICANS MADE THINGS.

THAT WAS WHAT WAS SO REMARKABLE.

YOU KNOW, WE LINK TO THE CONTINENT WITH THE RAILROADS.

WE HAD PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT HAD BEEN COMING ALONG .

DWIGHT EISENHOWER, I THINK, WAS THE FIRST AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO GO TO A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL .

THERE WERE ONLY SOMETHING LIKE SIX OR SEVEN PEOPLE WHO MADE ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE SCHOOL SYSTEM IN ABILENE BECAUSE SO MANY KIDS GOT PULLED OUT TO WORK.

BUT YOU HAD A SPREADING POWER OF EDUCATION THAT HELPED CREATE PEOPLE WHO COULD BE ENGINEERS, AND WHO COULD BE SKILLED WORKERS .

YOU SAW THE REMARKABLE CAPACITY , NOT JUST DEMOCRACY, BUT DEMOCRATIC CAPITALISM TO RESPOND TO A CRISIS.

>> LET ME THEN PUT SOME POINT ON WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING AND WHAT THIS DOCUMENTARY SAYS.

THAT SEEM RELEVANT TO TODAY.

WHICH IS, WE DECIDED THE IMPORTANCE OF EDUCATION.

WE FIGURED OUT HOW TO CREATE A MIDDLE-CLASS THAT HAS SECURED JOBS AND GOOD WAGES.

WE DECIDED HOW TO MAKE THINGS.

WE UNDERSTOOD THE VALUES OF DEMOCRACY .

WE KNEW WE WOULD HAVE TO GET INVOLVED IN THE WORLD TO STOP TYRANNY.

DO YOU THINK THAT ALL THOSE LESSONS WE STILL HOLD THEM AS TRUE TODAY?

>> IT IS PART OF THE REASON TO TELL THE STORY.

I WORRY ALL THE TIME .

I THINK ALL OF US HAVE TO GIVEN THE LAST DECADE IN WHICH NATIONALISM , WHICH IS IN ALLEGIANCE TO YOUR OWN KIND, HAS PREVAILED OVER THE DEFINITION OF PATRIOTISM, WHICH IS ALLEGIANCE TO A CREED THAT WHOEVER PLEDGES ALLEGIANCE TO OUR DECLARATION ABOUT WHICH YOU HAVE WRITTEN TO OUR CONSTITUTION, OUR RULE OF LAW, THEN YOU CAN BELONG.

NATIONALISM, WHICH WAS AT THE HEART OF THE FASCIST ENTERPRISES AROUND THE WORLD , IS A DURABLE AND SNEAKY VIRUS.

IT IS PART OF THE HUMAN BODY POLITIC.

WE HAVE TO FIGHT IT.

AND IT RECURS.

IT IS RECURRING TODAY.

NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT AROUND THE WORLD.

AND SO, THE LESSON OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR SEEMS TO ME TO BE AS CLEAR AND AS RESONANT AND RELEVANT AS IT HAS BEEN AT ANY POINT SINCE 1945.

WHICH IS, THE RULE OF LAW , THE SANCTITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL, AND A SENSE OF INTERNATIONAL ORDER IN WHICH WE SEE EACH OTHER NOT AS ENEMIES, BUT AS NEIGHBORS .

IF WE FALL AWAY FROM THAT, CHAOS RESULTS.

AND WE SAW THAT IN THE 1930s AND 1940s.

WE SAW IT IN THE 19 -- 19 TEENS.

THERE ARE AUTOCRATS ON THE MARCH AROUND THE WORLD , AND WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED AT OUR PERIL IS THAT IF WE LET THEM MARCH FREELY, CHAOS RESULTS.

>> TOMORROW WE CELEBRATE OUR 250th .

JULY 4.

ACTUALLY A WONDERFUL SPEECH , I THINK FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT GIVES THE 9041 ABOUT THE FREEDOMS, AND HE INVOKES THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS DOCUMENTARY AND WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE THINKING ABOUT ON JULY 4.

>> WE HAVE TO REMEMBER ON THE FOURTH OF JULY, AND EVERY DAY, THAT THAT WAS THE DAY THAT AMERICAN SCRIPTURE REALLY CAME INTO BEING.

EVERY GENERATION CAN JUDGE ITSELF BY THE DEGREE TO WHICH IT LIVES INTO THE DECLARATION OR THE DEGREE TO WHICH IT FALLS FROM IT.

THAT WAS TRUE IN SENECA FALLS.

IT WAS TRUE FOR FREDERICK DOUGLASS.

IT WAS TRUE, AS YOU SAY, FOR FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT, WHO SAID IN HIS STATE OF THE UNION IN 1941 , YOU LISTED THE FOUR FREEDOMS, FREEDOM FROM FEAR, FREEDOM FROM WANT.

HE LISTED THEM, AND THE PHRASE IN THE SPEECH WAS , WE MUST DEFEND FREEDOM FROM FEAR EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

HE REPEATED THE PHRASE EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

WHEN HE WAS PRACTICING THE SPEECH, HIS AIDE, HARRY HOPKINS, SAID YOU KNOW MR.

PRESIDENT, I WOULD CUT THE PHRASE EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, BECAUSE NOBODY GIVES --NO AMERICAN GIVES A DAM ABOUT WHETHER THERE IS FREEDOM IN JAVA.

FDR LOOKED AT HIM AND SAID, HARRY, THE WORLD IS GETTING SO SMALL THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CARE.

I THINK IT WAS TRUE THEN, AND LORD KNOWS, IT IS TRUE NOW.

>> JON MEACHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS.

> >> AN EPIC SERIES ND.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WANTED.

HAPPY JULY 4 WEEKEND ON THIS 250th ANNIVERSARY.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, AMERICA.

GOODBYE TO ALL OF YOU FROM LONDON.

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