>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE CAN TURN THIS COUNTRY AROUND BUT DIFFERENT TIMES CALL FOR DIFFERENT LEADERSHIP.

>> OUT TO BEAT HIS FORMER BOSS.

FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE MAKES IT OFFICIAL.

I ASKED FORMER GOP REPRESENTATIVE WILL HERD IF ANYONE HAS A SHOT AT BEATING DONALD TRUMP TO THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, JUST HOW FAST IS DEFINITELY SHOCKING.

AND THE FACT NOBODY KNEW THIS WAS COMING.

>> THE PGA TOUR IS ACCUSED OF SACRIFICING MORALS FOR MONEY.

THEN -- >> WE ARE HERE OURSELVES.

>> SITUATION CRITICAL.

THE TOP DOCTOR AT HAITI'S TOP HOSPITAL SYSTEM TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY THE COUNTRY IS ON THE BRINK OF CIVIL WAR AND HOW FOREIGN GOVERNMENT SHOULD HELP.

AND -- ♪♪ ♪♪ >>> THE STARS COME OUT FOR RUFUS WAINWRIGHT'S ALBUMS.

I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS MODERN TAKE ON SOME FOLK CLASSICS.

>>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE HAS OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED HIS CAMPAIGN.

>> EVERY TIME WE HAVE CALLED UPON PEOPLE TO DO HARD THINGS, AMERICA HAS RISEN TO THE CHALLENGE.

WE WILL AGAIN.

WE NEED GOVERNMENT AS GOOD AS OUR PEOPLE TO DO IT.

I BELIEVE IN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

I HAVE FAITH.

GOD IS NOT DONE WITH AMERICA YET, AND TOGETHER WE CAN BRING THIS COUNTRY BACK AND THE BEST DAZE DAYS FOR THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH ARE YET TO COME.

>> PENCE JOINS A GROWING FIELD OF CONTENDERS NOW VYING FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION AND HOPING TO LEAD THEIR PARTY TO VICTORY IN THE 2024 ELECTION.

TRUMP, HOWEVER, REMAINS THE CANDIDATE TO BEAT.

REPUBLICAN VOTERS APPARENTLY WILLING TO LOOK PAST HIS FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT THE LAST ELECTION BEING STOLEN AND THE FLURRY OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS HE AND HIS BUSINESSES ARE EMBROILED IN CURRENTLY.

THERE IS SOME HOPE FOR HIS OPPONENTS, HOWEVER.

CNN POLL LAST MONTH SHOWS EVEN THOUGH TRUMP LEADS THE PRIMARY FIELD, MORE THAN EIGHT IN TEN SAY THEY WERE OPEN TO CONSIDERING EX-VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND RON DeSANTIS.

MEANWHILE, FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE BEGAN WITH A BLISTERING ATTACK ON DONALD TRUMP.

>> A LONELY, SELF-CONSUMED, SELF-SERVING MIRROR HOG IS NOT A LEADER, SO NOW WE HAVE PRETENDERS ALL AROUND US WHO WANT TO TELL YOU, PICK ME BECAUSE I'M KIND OF LIKE WHAT YOU PICKED BEFORE, BUT NOT QUITE AS CRAZY.

>> FORMER PROSECUTOR NOT MINCING WORDS THERE.

FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN AND ONE TIME CIA AGENT WILL HERD HAS BEEN AN OUTSPOKEN CRITIC OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HE'S CALLED THE IDEA OF A BIDEN/TRUMP REPEAT A REMATCH FROM HELL.

HE JOINS US FROM SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS.

GREAT TO SEE YOU.

FIRST, LET'S START OFF WITH WHERE YOU CURRENTLY STAND AND WHAT YOU'RE THINKING.

WE'VE HAD A LONG LIST OF PEOPLE THROW THEIR NAMES INTO THE RING HERE.

YOU WERE MULLING IT AT ONE POINT.

ANY NEWS YOU WANT TO MAKE WITH US TODAY?

>> NO NEWS TO MAKE TODAY, BUT IF I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY AND A PATHWAY TO HELP MY COUNTRY AGAIN, THEN I'LL EVALUATE THAT.

I'VE GOT TO MAKE A FINAL DECISION SOMETIME SOON.

>> WHAT WOULD THAT PATHWAY LOOK LIKE?

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE MULLING OVER RIGHT NOW?

>> LOOK, HERE'S THE REAL QUESTION THAT REPUBLICAN VOTERS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ASK.

DO WE WANT FOUR MORE YEARS OF JOE BIDEN?

BECAUSE IF WE ELECT -- EXCUSE ME, IF WE ELECT DONALD TRUMP AS THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE, THEN WE ARE WILLINGLY LETTING JOE BIDEN WIN AGAIN, AND THAT'S A SIMPLE FACT.

WE NEED TO BE THINKING WHO CAN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ELECT THAT CAN WIN IN NOVEMBER?

IF WE WANT TO SEE INFLATION REDUCED, IF WE WANT TO DEAL WITH OUR NATIONAL DEBT, IF WE WANT TO ADDRESS THE CRISIS AT THE BORDER, IF WE WANT TO WIN THE NEW COLD WAR WITH THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT, THEN WE HAVE TO WIN IN NOVEMBER AND WE NEED A CANDIDATE THAT CAN DO THAT.

WE KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP IS A PROVEN LOSER AND THE ELECTION IS NOT TODAY.

THE ELECTION IS MONTHS AWAY, AND EVEN THOSE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS WHO LIKE DONALD TRUMP KNOW HIS RECORD OF LOSING.

THEY KNOW HOW WE LOST THE HOUSE IN 2018.

WE KNOW HOW WE LOST THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE SENATE IN 2020 AND FAILED TO PREVENT A RED WAVE IN 2022, WHICH SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

AND THE REALITY IS, INDEPENDENTS AND CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THAT'S WHY I CALLED THIS REMATCH BETWEEN JOE BIDEN AND DONALD TRUMP THE REMATCH FROM HELL, BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS THAT.

THAT'S THE OPPORTUNITY BUT WE HAVE TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO CAN WIN IN NOVEMBER.

>> SO CURRENTLY THERE ARE NINE CANDIDATES WHO THINK THAT THEY CAN BEAT DONALD TRUMP, AND YOU JUST LISTED A LOT OF EXAMPLES THERE AS TO THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN LEARNED BY THE PARTY, BY AMERICANS, BY VOTERS OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS AND WHAT THEY'VE LEARNED FROM A TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, THERE ARE QUITE A FEW SIMILARITIES TO WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN ELECTIONS OF THE PAST, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT WE HAVE A NUMBER OF CANDIDATES ONCE AGAIN VYING FOR THE NOMINATION.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SAW IN 2015 AND 2016.

SO WHAT LEADS YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THESE CANDIDATES HAVE LEARNED THEIR LESSON?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF ALL THE CANDIDATES HAVE LEARNED THEIR LESSON, BUT AT LEAST THERE'S A FEW THAT ARE TRYING TO LEARN THAT LESSON AND THE THING IS YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING.

THE REASON SO MANY PEOPLE LOST IN 2016 IS THEY WERE AFRAID TO TAKE ON DONALD TRUMP, AND THAT HAS TO CHANGE IN THIS UPCOMING ELECTION CYCLE.

THOSE TRYING TO BE A CLONE ARE NOT GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

PEOPLE RECOGNIZE AND ARE CONCERNED WITH THE BAGGAGE DONALD TRUMP HAS.

THEY RECOGNIZE IF WE WANT TO SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS, WE NEED SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THEER IS SOMETHING -- WE NEED PEOPLE THAT ARE LOOKING FORWARD, NOT LOOKING BACKWARDS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE COMPLICATED TIMES WE LIVE IN, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CHALLENGES, WORKING WITH THE SAUDIS, IRANIANS TO CAUSE A PROBLEM, ALL OF THAT IMPACTS US HERE IN THE UNITED STATES MAKING SURE TECHNOLOGY -- WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TECHNOLOGY BEFORE IT TAKES ADVANTAGE OF US.

MAKING SURE OUR KIDS ARE READY.

THESE ARE THE CONCERNS THAT VOTERS REALLY CARE ABOUT.

WHO AMONG THESE.

>> THAT'S TALKS AND IT WAS AS SHOCKED.

CHALLENGING HIM.

I'VE BEEN PRETTY HERE.

THE PROBLEM IS BACK IN 2015.

SO WHAT REPUBLICANS SAY IS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CONSISTENT IN THESE VIEWS.

SO I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE CHANGING IN POSITIONS OVER THE NEXT COUPLE MONTHS BUT I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE RACE IS A GOOD THING.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SHOULD NOT BE A PARTY THAT'S FOCUSED ON GROUP THINK.

I THINK HAVING DEBATES ARE GOOD THINGS.

I THINK HAVING CONVERSATIONS AND DIFFERENT OPINIONS IS A GOOD THING AND ULTIMATELY THAT THE PARTY BENEFITS FROM HAVING A DIVERSITY OF VOICES.

WE NEED TO BE SURE WE HAVE A MODERN PARTY.

>> AMONG THE NINE CANDIDATES NOW THAT MADE IT OFFICIAL THAT THEY ARE RUNNING FOR THE NOMINATION, YOU SAY THAT THAT'S A GOOD THING, BUT THAT ALSO APPEARS TO BE A GOOD THING FROM TRUMP'S PERSPECTIVE AS WELL BECAUSE THAT HELPED HIM SEAL THE NOMINATION LAST TIME.

WHAT MAKES THIS TIME DIFFERENT?

>> I THINK THIS TIME WHAT'S DIFFERENT IS YOU HAVE A DECENT AMOUNT OF -- 20% OF THE ELECTORATE THAT IS NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR ANYBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP OR FOR DONALD TRUMP AND THEN YOU -- LET'S SAY, YOU KNOW, ON A CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE 27 TO 32% OF PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP, THERE'S A LOT IN THE MIDDLE THAT CAN BE -- THAT CAN BE WON.

AND LET'S ALSO BE HONEST.

VOTERS ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS ELECTION YET.

JUST BECAUSE THOSE OF US THAT ARE INVOLVED IN POLITICS AND COVER THIS IN THE NEWS ARE LOOKING AT EVERY SINGLE THING.

A LOT COULD HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND JANUARY WHEN THE FIRST PRIMARIES HAPPEN.

AND, LOOK, THE OTHER DIFFERENCE WITH THIS GROUP OF CANDIDATES IS THAT A LOT OF THEM ALREADY HAVE VERY HIGH NAME I.D.

AND, YOU KNOW, VOTERS ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

SO, YOU KNOW, YES, THE SIZE IS GOING TO POTENTIALLY BE SIMILAR TO 2016, BUT THERE IS A DIFFERENT VARIETY OF CANDIDATES IN THIS ELECTION.

>> WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CANDIDATE THAT ARGUABLY HAS THE MOST VOTER RECOGNITION IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN HIS ALLIANCE WITH FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND THAT IS FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY THAT YOU'RE HAVING A VICE PRESIDENT TAKE ON A PRESIDENT.

ACTUALLY PUT HIM ON HIS OWN TICKET AND THE TWO NOW RUNNING AGAINST EACH OTHER, BUT OBVIOUSLY JANUARY 6th CHANGED ALL OF THAT.

LET'S LISTEN TO THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT ON CNN AND HIS THOUGHTS ON WHY HE IS RUNNING WHEN HE WAS ASKED.

>> FRANKLY, WHEN I SAW THOSE IMAGES AND WHEN -- WHEN I READ A TWEET PRESIDENT TRUMP ISSUED SAYING I LACKED COURAGE IN THAT MOMENT, IT ANGERED ME GREATLY.

BUT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I DIDN'T HAVE TIME FOR IT.

THE PRESIDENT HAD DECIDED IN THAT MOMENT TO BE A PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I DECIDED AND WAS DETERMINED TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.

>> SO PENCE DESERVES KUDOS FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING AT THE RIGHT TIME.

HE IS THE MOST CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE IN THE RUNNING RIGHT NOW, BUT HE DRAWS ABOUT 4% OF POLLING FROM VOTERS EVEN IN HEAVILY EVANGELICAL IOWA.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU ABOUT THE CHANCES OF HIS SUCCESS?

>> THAT SAYS HE HAS A NARROW PATHWAY IN BEING SUCCESSFUL.

I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU THAT MIKE PENCE IS, INDEED, A STAUNCH CONSERVATIVE.

I ENJOY WORKING WITH MIKE PENCE WHEN HE WAS -- WHEN HE WAS VICE PRESIDENT, BUT HIS PATHWAY IS VERY NARROW, PARTLY BECAUSE HIS NAME I.D.

IS PARTICULARLY HIGH.

AND I THINK THAT'S A SIGN, AGAIN, WITH -- MIKE PENCE ABSOLUTELY DID THE RIGHT THING ON JANUARY 6th.

THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

I'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT OVER THE YEARS, BUT ULTIMATELY THE VOTERS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S FOUR YEARS OF ENTANGLEMENT WITH DONALD TRUMP AND THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP DID IN OFFICE THAT MIKE PENCE IS ALSO GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER TO.

AND SO WHEN YOU HAVE BOTH SECTIONS OF THE PARTY, THOSE THAT ARE PRO TRUMP AND THOSE THAT ARE NOT, NOT LIKING YOU OR UPSET WITH YOU, THAT'S A VERY -- THAT'S A VERY NARROW PATH ULTIMATELY FOR VICTORY.

BUT I GO BACK TO THIS NOTION.

LIKE WE NEED TO WIN IN NOVEMBER AND WE HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY IF WE -- IF WE PICK THE RIGHT CANDIDATE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN'S APPROVAL NUMBERS ARE SUPER LOW.

PEOPLE WANT TO SEE SOMETHING DIFFERENT, AND THAT'S THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR REPUBLICANS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF COME NOVEMBER.

>> IS THIS AN OPPORTUNITY, IN YOUR VIEW, FOR FORMER JERSEY GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE BECAUSE HE HAS NOT HELD BACK IN THE INTRO AND OTHER COMMENTS BEFORE ULTIMATELY ANNOUNCING AND FIGHTING WORDS AGAINST FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

LET'S JUST GIVE YOU ANOTHER SAMPLE HERE.

>> A LONELY, SELF-CONSUMED, SELF-SERVING MIRROR HOG IS NOT A LEADER.

>> THE REASON I'M GOING AFTER TRUMP IS TWOFOLD.

ONE, HE DESERVES IT AND, TWO, IT'S THE WAY TO WIN.

>> LET'S NOT FORGET THOUGH THAT HE WAS THE FIRST CANDIDATE BACK IN 2016 TO ENDORSE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE ALSO HELPED THE FORMER PRESIDENT DURING HIS DEBATE AND ULTIMATELY CAUGHT COVID FROM THAT ADMINISTRATION'S LACK -- LAX POLICIES WITH REGARDS TO MASKING.

SO YOUR VIEWS ON THIS TURN AROUND THAT WE'VE SEEN FROM HIM AND WILL THIS HELP HIM POTENTIALLY WITH REPUBLICAN VOTERS?

>> WELL, I THINK HAVING SOMEONE AS FIRM AS GOVERNOR CHRISTIE REMINDING PEOPLE OF DONALD TRUMP'S FOIBLES IS A GOOD THING, BUT ULTIMATELY GOVERNOR CHRISTIE IS GOING TO HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THOSE AT A TIME WE ALREADY KNEW WHAT DONALD TRUMP'S SHORTCOMINGS ULTIMATELY WERE.

SO THAT'S GOING TO PROBABLY PLAGUE HIM AS HE GOES THROUGH AND CONTINUES THE CAMPAIGN.

HERE'S WHAT I HAVE LEARNED IN MY TIME IN POLITICS.

I'M A BLACK REPUBLICAN THAT REPRESENT A 72% LATINO DISTRICT.

NOBODY THOUGHT THAT I COULD POTENTIALLY WIN, AND WHEN YOU REPRESENT A DISTRICT THAT'S 50-50, 50% REPUBLICAN, 50% DEMOCRAT, HALF THE DISTRICT IS UPSET WITH YOU WITH WHAT YOU'RE DOING, BUT WHAT I'VE LEARNED FROM THAT EXPERIENCE IS PEOPLE EXPECT IDEOLOGICAL CONSISTENCY.

BE THE SAINT WHEN YOUR TEAM IS IN POWER AND WHEN YOUR TEAM IS OUT OF POWER.

I THINK THAT'S WHY GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL HAS SUCH LOW NUMBERS -- APPROVAL NUMBERS IS BECAUSE THE POPULATION IS SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE SAYING ONE THING, DOING SOMETHING ELSE AND DOING SOMETHING EVEN DIFFERENT WHEN A DIFFERENT PERSON IS IN OFFICE.

I THINK THAT STRATEGY FOR SUCCESS HAS WORKED FOR ME AND IT WILL WORK FOR OTHERS.

>> THERE IS A BLACK CANDIDATE IN THE RUNNING, SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR TIM SCOTT.

WOULD HE LYTIC COULD HE CALLED HIM A HAPPY WARRIOR.

IT IS A TREND, AND THAT IS AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF BLACK MALE VOTERS THAT VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP LAST TIME, 5, 6% AND SIMILAR FOR HISPANIC, HISPANIC WOMEN.

PERHAPS COULD IT BE TIM SCOTT THAT SEES THAT TREND MOVE NORTH?

>> THE TREND FOR REPUBLICANS TO WIN BLACK AND BROWN VOTES IS SIGNIFICANT IF THOSE COMMUNITIES ULTIMATELY CARE ABOUT.

THERE IS A MATH PROBLEM IN PRIMARIES.

ONLY 23% OF POPULATION VOTES IN PRIMARIES.

THAT'S A FRACTION OF THE COUNTRY, OBVIOUSLY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT GENERAL ELECTIONS, DEPENDING ON THE YEAR, YOU HAVE ABOUT 67% OF THE POPULATION VOTE.

AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF WHY ARE THOSE PEOPLE NOT VOTING IN PRIMARIES, THEY MIGHT NOT KNOW WHO THE CANDIDATES ARE.

COULD DO REPUBLICANS HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY?

YOUNG FOLKS, ONE WITH A COLLEGE DEGREE AND MINORITY COMMUNITIES?

WE DO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY, BUT THAT'S GOING TO REQUIRE PEOPLE TALKING TO THEM.

I THINK TIM IS AN EXAMPLE, I'M AN EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE EXAMPLES THAT KNOW HOW TO DO THAT.

THAT'S AN UP SIDE AND WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE FUTURE, NOT DEALING WITH A.I., QUANTUM COMPUTING AND MAKING SURE TEACHERS HAVE TOOLS IN ORDER TO EDUCATE KIDS.

HOW ARE WE GOING TO DEAL WITH CRIMES IN THE CITIES THAT ARE INCREASING?

THESE ARE THINGS THAT FOLKS IN THOSE COMMUNITIES NEED TO BE DEALING WITH.

>> SOME OF THE ISSUES YOU HAVE NOT RAISED ARE CULTURE WARS AND ABORTION RIGHTS IN THIS COUNTRY AND HOW THEY APPLY FOR REPUBLICAN VOTERS EN MASSE.

THAT LEADS TO RON DeSANTIS.

ANOTHER CANDIDATE.

MANY BELIEVED HIM TO BE ONE OF THE STRONGEST CANDIDATES TO TAKE ON TRUMP.

DO YOU THINK PART RELIES ON THE POLICIES?

>> CINDERELLA IS NOT THE BIGGEST THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA RIGHT NOW.

THAT WAS A TRIP UP.

WE NEED UKRAINE TO WIN, PERIOD, FULL STOP.

UKRAINE WINNING MEANS PUSHING THE RUSSIANS OUT OF ALL OF UKRAINE, TO INCLUDE CRIMEA.

FOLKS THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT REALIZE THIS HURTS THE UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE BUILT AN INTERNATIONAL ORDER THAT HAS BENEFITTED THE U.S. AND WHEN WE DON'T DEFEND THAT ORDER, THAT'S GOING TO ULTIMATELY HURT US.

SO, AGAIN, VOTERS RECOGNIZE AND UNDERSTAND THAT, AND THESE ARE THE EXISTENTIAL ISSUES THAT ARE IMPACTING OUR QUALITY IN LIFE AND OUR WAY IN LIFE.

THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT THINK THAT OUR BEST DAYS ARE BEHIND US, NOT AHEAD OF US, ARE WORRYING BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT THE FUTURE AND WHERE THE COUNTRY SHOULD GO.

>> WELL, WILL HERD, AS YOU ARE COMING TO A DECISION AS TOO WHAT YOUR FUTURE LOOKS LIKE, PLEASE DON'T BE SHY.

REACH OUT TO US IF THERE'S ANY NEWS YOU'D LIKE TO MAKE IN THE MEANTIME.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO BE ON WITH YOU.

>> TAKE CARE.

>>> TODAY THE PGA TOUR STANDS ACCUSED OF SELLING OUT, PUTTING MONEY OVER MORALS BY MERGING WITH ITS ONCE SWORN RIVAL LIV GOLF.

LIV GOV IS BACKED BY MONEY FROM SAUDI ARABIA.

THE IT WAS ALSO HOME TO MOST OF THE 9/11 HIJACKERS AND IT HAS AN APPALLING TRACK RECORD ON HUMAN RIGHTS, ESPECIALLY THE TREATMENT OF WOMEN.

TODAY PGA TOUR COMMISSIONER JAY MONAHAN IS FACING MOUNTING PRESSURE TO RESIGN AND THE HYPOCRISY OF THE DECISION ISN'T LOST EVEN ON HIM.

>> I RECOGNIZE THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO CALL ME A HYPOCRITE, AND ANY TIME I'VE SAID ANYTHING I SAID IT WITH THE INFORMATION I HAD AT THAT MOMENT AND I SAID -- I SAID IT BASED ON SOMEONE TRYING TO COMPETE FOR THE PGA TOUR AND OUR PLAYERS.

I ACCEPT THOSE CRITICISMS.

CIRCUMSTANCES DO CHANGE.

>> 9/11 JUSTICE CALLS IT A BETRAYAL.

THEY'RE A CAUSING THE PGA TOUR AS A SPINELESS GRAB.

>> HE SOLD OUT ALL OF US.

HE SOLD OUT HIS PLAYERS, HIS FANS, THE GOLF BASE, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND FOR WHAT?

WHAT CHANGED THAT HE DECIDED TO DO THIS AND TAKE A STAND WITH THE KINGDOM AND AGAINST THE 9/11 FAMILIES?

>> BRIAN TODD EXPLAINS HOW WE GOT TO THIS STUNNING ABOUT TURN.

>> Reporter: A MEGABUSINESS DEAL THAT SURPRISED EVERYONE BUT THE TIGHTEST POWER CIRCLES IN THE SPORT OF GOLF.

THE U.S.-BASED PGA TOUR ANNOUNCES IT WILL PARTNER WITH THE RIVAL TOUR IT'S BEEN TRYING TO FIGHT OFF FOR A YEAR, SAUDI-BACKED LIV GOLF.

>> JUST HOW FAST AND HOW STARK THE 180 HAPPENED IS DEFINITELY SHOCKING AND THE FACT THAT NOBODY KNEW THIS WAS COMING.

>> Reporter: LAST YEAR LIV GOV SUCCEEDED IN LURING AWAY TOP PGA PLAYERS LIKE PHIL MIKKELSON, BRYSON DeCHAMBEAU AND JOHNSON.

IT OFFERED TIGER WOODS BETWEEN 700 AND $800 MILLION TO JOIN WHICH WOODS TURNED DOWN.

THE PGA TOUR FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL, ENGAGING IN LEGAL DISPUTES WITH THE SAUDI TOUR.

WHAT CHANGED?

>> THE MONEY WON OUT IN THE END.

THE SAUDIS HAD WAY MORE MONEY THAN THE PGA TOUR.

THE PGA TOUR CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THEY COULDN'T CONTINUE TO FIGHT THE FIGHT, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO CONTINUE.

>> Reporter: NOW ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST ICONIC SPORTS ENTITIES TEAMS UP WITH A TOUR BACKED BY A WEALTH FUND BACKED BY MOHAMED BIN SALMA.

MBS.

HE APPROVED THE OPERATION WHICH LED TO THE MURDER AND DISMEMBERMENT OF JAMAL KHASHOGGI.

>> BASICALLY THE HEADLINE IS, NEVER MIND.

EVERYTHING WE TALKED ABOUT, THE OUTRAGE OF THE PGA TOUR, THEY SPOKE ABOUT THE 9/11 FAMILIES, THEIR CONCERN ABOUT THE MURDER OF JAMAL KHASHOGGI, THAT'S ALL OUT THE DOOR.

THE PGA TOUR HAS WIMPED OUT.

>> Reporter: A YEAR AGO HE SAID THIS.

>> AS IT RELATES TO THE FAMILIES OF 9/11, I HAVE TWO FAMILIES THAT ARE CLOSE TO ME THAT LOST LOVED ONES SO MY HEART GOES OUT TO THEM AND I WOULD ASK ANY PLAYER THAT HAS LEFT OR ANY PLAYER THAT WOULD CONSIDER LEAVING, HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO APOLOGIZE FOR BEING A MEMBER OF THE PGA TOUR.

>> Reporter: THIS IS WHAT MONAHAN SAYS NOW TO CNBC.

>> WE'VE RECOGNIZED TOGETHER WE CAN HAVE A FAR GREATER IMPACT TOGETHER RATHER THAN WORKING APART.

>> Reporter: THE NEW DEAL GIVES THE SAUDIS MORE POWER THAN THEY'VE HAD BEFORE.

>> THEY ARE LEAPING FOR JOY.

THEY ARE DANCING IN THE STREETS BECAUSE THEY HAVE WON.

>>> NOW TURNING TO HAITI.

THESE DISASTERS ADD TO THE SUFFERING IN A COUNTRY ALREADY PLAGUED BY GANG VIOLENCE AND GOVERNMENT INSTABILITY.

OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS WITHOUT INTERNATIONAL HELP, THE COUNTRY COULD DESCEND INTO A CIVIL WAR.

HERE HE IS SPEAKING WITH MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> WE HAVE A NUMBER OF THINGS TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT, BUT HOW ARE THINGS NOW?

YOU'RE SAYING THERE WAS VERY SERIOUS FLOODING WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS.

HOW ARE YOU?

HOW ARE THINGS?

>> WELL, WE ARE OKAY.

JUNE 1st STARTED HURRICANE SEASON AND HAITI IS ONE OF THE MOST FRAGILE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD SO ON JUNE 1st WE HAD VERY, VERY BAD WEATHER THAT LED TO FLOODING WHERE WE ARE, INCLUDING IN MY OWN OFFICE, BUT THE COUNTRY SUFFERED THE MOST.

WE HAVE 42 DEATHS, 11 PEOPLE DISAPPEARED.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN ANY SIGN OF THEM.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS.

WE ALSO HAD AN EARTHQUAKE YESTERDAY MT SOUTH OF THE COUNTRY THAT KILLED SEVERAL PEOPLE.

>> FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO HAITI, WHO HAVE DONE WORK THERE, VISITED, THEY ARE WELL AWARE THAT YOUR CLINIC HAS NEVER SHUT DOWN BEFORE.

>> YESTERDAY WE WERE ABLE TO.

WE CLEANED THE PLACE.

WE ARE COMPLETELY OPERATIONAL.

>> THAT'S GOOD TO HEAR.

YOU WROTE A VERY POWERFUL AND FRANKLY VERY ALARMING PIECE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," A GUEST ESSAY SAYING THINGS ARE REALLY DIRE.

YOU SAID THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU FEEL HAITI NEEDS OUTSIDE HELP.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> WELL, THIS IS CORRECT.

AS YOU KNOW, WE BELIEVE THROUGH POLITICAL INSTABILITY 23 GOVERNMENTS SINCE 1986.

WE'VE LIVED THREW MAJOR HURRICANES.

WE HAD TWO MAJOR EARTHQUAKES, 2010 IN PARTICULAR WAS DEVASTATING.

BUT WHAT'S PARTICULARLY HARD NOW IS THAT WE HAVE A PERFORM BECAUSE THE POLITICAL CRISIS HAS -- WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO WAS ELECTED BUT THIS PRESIDENT HAD A POSITION EVEN BEFORE HE GOT INTO POWER.

WITH THE COUNTRY BEING LOCKED, CLOSED FOR THREE MONTHS WHERE SCHOOLS EVEN IN A COUNTRY WHERE 50% OF PEOPLE ARE ILLITERATE, SCHOOLS WERE FORCED TO CLOSE, BUSINESSES CLOSED, ET CETERA.

THIS WAS VERY, VERY DAMAGING TO THE COUNTRY THAT CULMINATED WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT THIS PAST JULY 2021.

AND SINCE THAT TIME WE HAVE NO ELECTED PERSON IN GOVERNMENT.

SO THIS IS THE POLITICAL FRONT.

NOW IF YOU LOOK AT THE ECONOMY, FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN NEGATIVE.

WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH ANY COUNTRY, WE ARE AT WAR WITH OURSELVES.

THAT'S A PROBLEM.

AND THE INFLATION IS 47%.

THE LOCAL CURRENCY HAS BEEN DEVALUED 50% IN THE LAST THREE YEARS.

WITH THIS SITUATION WE HAVE A HUGE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS BECAUSE THE PRICE OF FOOD HAS INCREASED A LOT.

SOMETHING NEW HAS HAPPENED.

THIS IS THE MOST SEVERE.

THE FACT THAT GANGS HAVE TAKEN CONTROL OF THE ENTRY TO THE CAPITOL, AND BECAUSE OF THAT YOU HAVE CROPS BEING PRODUCED BY THE COUNTRYSIDE THAT ARE BEING ROTTEN BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BRING THEM TO THE CAPITOL.

THAT HAS ALSO INCREASED THE PRICE OF FOOD AND AS A RESULT WE HAVE OVER 50% OF PEOPLE LIVING IN FOOD INSECURITY.

IN OUR OWN CENTERS WE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE CHILDREN WITH SEVERE MALNUTRITION.

WITH SEVERE MALNUTRITION IT'S ASSOCIATED WITH ALL KINDS OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE.

THIS IS HORRIBLE.

THIS IS SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT.

>> TALK TO ME ABOUT THE GANGS.

I MEAN, IS THERE ANY LEADERSHIP AMONG SNEM I MEAN, SURELY SOME OF THEIR OWN MEMBERS ARE SURELY EXPERIENCING THESE CONDITIONS?

>> I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON GANGS.

I DON'T WORK WITH GANGS.

I'VE NOT STUDIED GANGS, BUT WHAT I'VE SEEN BASICALLY IS THE FACT THEY HAVE EVOLVED ESSENTIALLY IN A VACUUM BECAUSE WHEN WE ARE OCCUPIED BY THE U.N.

FORCES FROM 2004 TO 2017, 14 YEARS, THE COUNTRY WAS VERY STABLE.

AT ONE POINT THEY HAD THE FORCE OF 9,000 PEOPLE, MOSTLY MILITARY PEOPLE, VERY WELL-EQUIPPED WITH TANKS, ET CETERA.

THE COUNTRY WAS VERY STABLE.

THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ON.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEY DID NOT TRAIN THEIR REPLACEMENT.

FOR SOME REASON THE U.S. DECIDED TO DEACTIVATE THE ARMY AND THE ARMY IS THE ONE IN CHARGE PREVIOUSLY OF DOING EVERYTHING, POLICE AND EVERYTHING.

AND THEN THEY CREATED FRANCE, THE U.S., AND CANADA CREATED THIS NEW POLICE FORCE.

AT ONE POINT THEY WERE STRONG OF 13,000 WHICH WAS STILL MUCH TOO LITTLE FOR A COUNTRY OF OVER 11 MILLION BUT NOW AT MOST THERE ARE 4,000 FIGHTING GANGS.

THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO THAT.

THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ONE TANK.

WE DON'T HAVE ONE TANK IN OUR COUNTRY.

CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?

AND THEY STRUGGLE TO GET THE ARMED VEHICLES THEY HAVE NOW AND THEY ARE BURNING WITH MOLOTOV COCKTAILS.

AND AT THE SAME TIME THERE WAS AN EMBARGO FOR THE ASIAN GOVERNMENT TO PURCHASE GUNS FOR THE U.S.

WHILE 90% OF THE GANGS, THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN RECORDED.

THE GUNS ARE COMING FROM THE U.S.

SO THIS IS KIND OF ABSURD.

SO BASICALLY THERE WAS NEVER A LARGE PROGRAM FOR THE YOUTHS.

IT WAS MOSTLY UNEMPLOYED.

SO GANG ATTRACTION BECAME SOMETHING VERY, VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY WERE PAID ALSO.

THEY WERE PAID BY THE GANGS TO JOIN THEM AND GANGS WERE MAKING A LOT OF MONEY.

THEY KIDNAP THE POOREST AND THE RICHEST.

>> WHAT IS DAY-TO-DAY LIFE LIKE FOR YOU AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH YOU?

CAN YOU JUST SORT OF DESCRIBE WHAT IT TAKES TO GET THROUGH THE DAY?

>> WELL, I CAN TELL YOU WE ARE RESILIENT.

WE ARE MOTIVATED.

WE ARE OPTIMISTS SO WE WAKE UP IN THE MORNING WITH THE IDEA THAT WE COULD BE KIDNAPPED OR KILLED, BUT WE COME IN IN A CONVOY AND WE LEAVE IN A CONVOY.

WE FEEL WE ARE STRONGER TOGETHER.

HERE, YOU ARE DOING THE INTERVIEW HERE BECAUSE WE ARE DOING FINE.

IT'S USUALLY UNUSUAL.

THEY ARE ALL AROUND US.

IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT BECAUSE WE HAD ON FOUR OCCASIONS MEMBERS OF OUR STAFF KIDNAPPED.

THE PRESSURE WE PUT ON THE GANGS IS THAT WE CLOSE THE CENTERS.

WHEN WE CLOSE THE CENTER FROM WHERE I AM TALKING TO YOU FROM NOW, NOBODY STAYS DOWNTOWN BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER BEEN REBUILT.

IT WAS DESTROYED BY THE EARTHQUAKE BUT WE ARE CLOSE TO THE POOR PEOPLE.

THEY ASK US TO STAY, WE STAY WITH THEM.

WHEN WE CLOSE HERE, IT'S A DISASTER.

WE SEE ON A DAILY BASIS 2,000 PEOPLE GET FREE CARE.

>> 2,000 PEOPLE A DAY?

>> YES.

SO THE STREET MERCHANTS DON'T EVEN COME.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S STILL HUGE, TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE.

EVEN FOR AN HOUR, IT'S YOUR FREEDOM TAKEN FROM YOU.

>> WE'VE HEARD OF THESE REALLY GRUESOME ATTACKS ON WHAT POLICE REMAIN AND HAVE MEMBERS OF YOUR STAFF LEFT THE COUNTRY JUST BECAUSE IT'S TOO MUCH, JUST MORE THAN THEY CAN TOLERATE?

>> IT'S NOT JUST MEMBERS OF OUR STAFF.

THE LARGEST BECAUSE OF INSECURITY.

A MAJORITY OF THEM LEFT FOR U.S. OR CANADA, CANADA MOSTLY.

NOW THE OPENING THROUGH THE BIDEN OFFERING WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE LEAVING INCLUDING POLICEMEN.

A STAFF OF 600, WE HAVE 200 OF THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST.

SO THIS IS THE SITUATION WE'RE IN NOW.

IT'S DESPERATE.

>> IF THIS CONTINUES, WOULD YOU SAY IT IS LIKELY YOU WILL HAVE TO SHUT DOWN, THAT YOU CANNOT CONTINUE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES?

IS THAT A REALISTIC POSSIBILITY?

>> YES.

IF THIS CONTINUES, WE HAVE TO SHUT DOWN THE DOWNTOWN CENTER.

WHERE WE ARE IS THE MOST DANGEROUS PART.

NOBODY WANTS TO COME DOWN HERE.

FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS IT'S BEEN CALLED A RED ZONE.

>> IF YOU WERE TO CLOSE DOWN THERE, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RESULT WOULD BE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD HAVE THREE IMPACT BECAUSE OUR MISSION IS ONE OF PATIENT CARE.

WE ARE THE LARGEST CENTER FOR HIV AND TUBERCULOSIS IN THE AMERICAS, ONE OF THE LARGEST.

SO THAT -- THAT WOULD SUFFER A LOT.

AND WE ALSO HAVE A LARGE CENTER FOR CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE BECAUSE THIS HAS BECOME NOW THE NUMBER ONE KILLER.

SO WE OPEN A CENTER FOR THAT.

AND IT'S REALLY AT THE DOWNTOWN SITE WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW.

IN TERMS OF TRAINING, WE ARE THE LARGEST POSTGRADUATE TRAINING CENTER IN HAITI.

WE ALSO HAVE THE FIRST MASTER PROGRAM AND NURSE PRACTITIONER PROGRAM WITH THE UNIVERSITY AND ALSO A LARGE COMMUNITY HEALTH PROGRAM.

AND THEN FOR RESEARCH, WE'VE PUBLISHED PAPERS AND SOME OF THEM HAVE CHANGED THEIR GUIDELINES ON HIV, TUBERCULOSIS, CHOLERA AND NOW CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE.

SO THIS IS THE IMPACT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE TELLING US EARLIER IS THE GANGS HAVE CONTROLLED -- AT LEAST AT A CERTAIN POINT THEY CONTROLLED ACCESS NOT JUST TO MAJOR -- ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS BUT ACCESS TO THE FUEL DEPOT AND ACCESS TO THE AIRPORT.

HOW ARE YOU EVEN GETTING YOUR SUPPLIES AT THIS POINT?

>> FOR US, IT STARTED A HUGE IMPACT.

THEY HAVE TWO EXTRA MACHINES THAT WERE GOING TO BE DELIVERED TO OUR SITE BUT THEY WHEN THEY LEARNED IT WAS FOR US, THEY LET IT GO.

FOR THE REST OF THE KUCHB TRY, IT'S TERRIBLE.

FOR A PERSON TO GET THROUGH CUSTOMS, IT'S A NIGHTMARE.

>> YOU SAID IN YOUR PIECE YOU HAVE NEVER CALLED FOR INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION.

NO COUNTRY WOULD WANT THAT.

NO COUNTRY WANTS FOREIGN SOLDIERS ON THEIR SOIL BUT AT THIS POINT YOU FEEL THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE.

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HELP THE MOST AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, HONESTLY, WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE INTERNATIONAL POLICE.

THEY ARE FIGHTING ALONE.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE PROPER GUNS.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS.

THE POPULATION IS HELPING THEM.

I THINK THE POPULATION IS SO DESPERATE THEY ARE READY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

INNOCENT PEOPLE COULD ALSO PERRISH IN THIS.

THE REALITY IS THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT PROTECT THEM, NOW THEY HAVE FORMED BRIGADES IN MANY NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THEY ARE DEFENDING THEMSELVES TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT THE VICTIMS OF GANGS ANYMORE.

THIS WILL NOT SOLVE THE ISSUE.

WE NEED TO BRING BACK LAW AND ORDER.

WE NEED JUSTICE.

>> DO YOU HAVE A MESSAGE FOR PARTICULARLY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, CANADA, PERHAPS FRANCE WHO MAY BE LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION AND MIGHT BE WONDERING WHAT THEY CAN DO TO SUPPORT YOU AND WANTS TO SEE STABILITY AND HUMANITY RETURN BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO LIVE LIKE THIS?

>> YES.

IT'S NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY.

I THINK THAT FRANCE -- WE HAVE STRONG TIES WITH FRANCE.

I THINK THEY CAN ALSO HELP.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE SOME FRENCH AND AMERICAN TRAINERS WHO COME IN HAITI TO TRAIN THE NATIONAL POLICE.

WE NEED MORE THAN THAT.

WE NEED PEOPLE ON THE GROUND THAT CAN DIRECT OPERATIONS AND WE ALSO NEED SOME SUPPORT TO INVEST IN THE YOUTHS.

IT'S NOT NORMAL THAT THE YOUTH HAS NO FUTURE, THAT THE ONLY THING THEY CAN THINK OF IS LEAVING THE COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY.

AND I THINK THAT THEY ARE AMAZING BECAUSE WHAT WE DO HERE FOR THEM, TRAINING OURSELVES IN OUR VOCATIONAL SCHOOL, IT'S AMAZING TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN DO.

WE ALSO HAVE THE SCHOOL HERE ON THE PREMISES FROM WHERE I'M TALKING TO YOU.

AND YOU SHOULD SEE HOW KIDS ARE EAGER TO LEARN.

SO WE NEED TO CHANGE THE DYNAMIC.

FOR ONCE GIVE THEM A GOOD CHANCE.

WE NEVER HAD THAT.

>> BEFORE YOU GO, I DON'T WANT TO OFFEND WITH THIS QUESTION, BUT I THINK THERE WILL BE THOSE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION WHO MIGHT WONDER WITH YOUR TRAINING, YOUR INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND THE RESPECT YOU HAVE AROUND THE WORLD, I THINK THERE ARE THOSE WHO WONDER WHY YOU STAY.

WHY DO YOU SAY?

>> YOU KNOW, I BUILT WITH MY COLLEAGUES -- IT'S UNIQUE IN MANY WAYS.

I'M AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE PERSON.

THAT'S MY SPECIALTY.

BUT WE HAVE ALSO SET UP A CARDIOVASCULAR CENTER BECAUSE THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE KILLER IN THE COUNTRY.

HERE WE ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

WE'VE SEEN AIDS BEING THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH.

WE ARE TREATING KIDS.

NOW IT'S THE SECOND CAUSE OF DEATH.

CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE IS THE NEW CHALLENGE AND WE ARE ATTACKING THAT.

AT THE SAME TIME, WHEN THINGS ARE DESPERATE, WE ARE OPERATIONAL.

WE ARE GOING TO PRESENT OUR RESULTS.

THE RESULTS OF THE 3,000 PEOPLE WE FOLLOWED FOR FIVE YEARS, WE ARE GOING TO FOLLOW THEM FOR TEN YEARS.

SO, AT THE SAME TIME THE COUNTRY IS NOT WORKING, WE ARE FULLY FUNCTIONING.

SO ESSENTIALLY IT WOULD BE A SHAME TO LEAVE ALL THAT WE BUILT.

AND I THINK IT WOULD BE A WASTE FOR THE COUNTRY.

I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT.

IT'S MY LEGACY TO MY COUNTRY.

>> DOCTOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> WELL, UP NEXT, TO SAY HIS BACK CATALOG IS ECLECTIC WOULD BE AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

STUDIO ALBUMS, SOUND TRACKS, CLASSICAL OPERAS, RUFUS WAINWRIGHT HAS BEEN VERY BUSY SINCE HE WAS NAMED BEST AR NIST 1988.

NOW HE'S SETTING OFF ON A NEW TOUR.

HE SAYS IT'S LIKE A RECORDED BIRTHDAY PARTY FOR HIS 50th AND IT'S PACKED WITH OTHER ARTISTS LIKE SHERYL CROW, CHAKA KHAN AND OTHERS.

THE SONG IS CALLED "DOWN IN WILLOW GARDEN" AND IT'S ABOUT A MAN ACCUSED OF MURDERING HIS LOVER.

♪ DOWN IN THE WILLOWS GARDEN ♪ ♪ WHERE ME AND MY LOVE DID MEET ♪ ♪ AS WE SAT, MY LOVE FELL ON HIS FEET ♪ >> AND CANADIAN AMERICAN SINGER, SONGWRITER AND COMPOSER RUFUS WAINWRIGHT JOINS US.

FIRST OF ALL, CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS LATEST ALBUM.

MY FIRST QUESTION IS, HOW DO YOU VIEW YOUR MUSIC HAVING GROWN AND EVOLVED OVER THE PAST QUARTER OF A CENTURY?

>> YEAH.

WELL, I -- IT'S ALL VERY ODD BECAUSE NONE OF IT WAS PLANNED.

I TURNED 50 THIS YEAR.

THERE'S THIS ODD SORT OF COSMIC SITUATION GOING ON.

NO, I GUESS AS MOST PEOPLE WHO WHEN THEY APPROACH THE MIDDLE OF THEIR LIFE, THEY DO START TO LOOK BACK AT THE BEGINNING AND AT THEIR CHILDHOOD.

SO, YEAH, THIS IS -- YEAH, I'M STARTING TO GET A LOT OF PERSPECTIVE HERE AND SHARING IT WITH THE PUBLIC.

>> PERHAPS STILL AT THE HEIGHT OF YOUR CAREER BECAUSE I DO WANT TO READ FOR YOU WHAT ONE REVIEWER DESCRIBED OF THE ALBUM.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

YOU HAVE NEVER SUNG BETTER ON THE RECORD.

FOR ONCE THE ADVANCE CR IS CORRECT.

A NEWLY JAZZED WAINWRIGHT IS GOOD.

I WOULD IMAGINE YOU LOVE HEARING REVIEWS LIKE THAT.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

YEAH.

NO, I MEAN, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN VERY RESPECTED BY, YOU KNOW, THE PRESS AND I HAVE A WONDERFUL AUDIENCE THAT HAS SUPPORTED ME THROUGH THE YEARS.

LET'S JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, I'VE DONE WELL BUT REALLY WHEN THE CRITICS ENJOY MY WORK, THAT'S KIND OF THE TOP OF THE HEAP FOR ME.

I'M NOT IN THIS FOR THE MONEY.

NOT THIS THIS TO BE A COMMERCIAL SUPERSTAR.

I'M IN IT FOR THE MUSIC.

WHEN I GET THAT KIND OF APPRECIATION, IT MEANS A LOT.

>> APPRECIATION FROM FANS AND CRITICS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT SONG WE PLAYED AT THE INTRO, "DOWN IN THE WILLOW GARDEN."

THEN YOU START LISTENING TO THE LYRICS.

>> SADLY WE STILL LIVE IN A VIOLENT WORLD.

WHAT DOES IT SAY TO YOU THIS IS THE SORT OF SONG THAT CONTINUES TO GET PASSED DOWN VIA FOLK MUSIC?

>> FOR BETTER OR WORSE, FOLK MUSIC REFLECTS THE REALITY OF HUMANITY, OF WHICH THERE IS A LOT OF VIOLENCE, YOU KNOW, IN THE WORLD.

SO FOLK MUSIC TACKLES THAT.

RE-INTERPRETING THIS MUSIC, YOU HAVE TO BE MORE SENSITIVE AND IT HAS TO ADVANCE TO OUR PRESENT TIME.

SO I FELT WITH THIS IT WAS NECESSARY TO DO IT WITH A WOMAN.

I DON'T THINK YOU COULD SING THE SONG WITH TWO MEN ANYMORE.

IT WOULD BE TOO MUCH.

WITH A WOMAN IT IS 21st CENTURY.

>> MUSIC AND FOLK MUSIC IS IN YOUR DNA.

THIS IS YOUR FIRST REAL FOLK ALBUM.

>> YEAH.

>> THINKING BACK, IS THERE A REASON WHY YOU MAY HAVE WAITED SO LONG?

>> THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

I ALWAYS ADORED IT.

I WILL SAY I FELT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT FROM MOST.

I AM AN OUT GAY MAN.

I KNEW THAT VERY EARLY ON IN MY LIFE.

THAT WASN'T NECESSARILY AN AVENUE THAT WAS SO OBVIOUS IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

WHEN I DISCOVERED OPERA, JUDY GARLAND STUFF, I WENT MY OWN DIRECTION.

AS I'VE GOTTEN OLDER I FOUND THAT FOUNDATION IN FOLK MUSIC HAS ALWAYS STAYED WITH ME AND GIVEN ME A REALLY SOLID, YOU KNOW, MUSICAL VOICE.

SO I'VE COME BACK, YES.

>> TAKEN YOU A FEW DECADES TO EXPLORE OTHER AVENUES.

>> YES.

>> AND BE SUCCESSFUL IN THEM, WE SHOULD NOTE, TO COME BACK TO YOUR ROOTS.

YOUR MOTHER PASSED AWAY IN 2010.

HOW DID HER MUSICAL LEGACY INFLUENCE YOU?

>> MY MOTHER WAS AN INCREDIBLE MUSICIAN AND ALSO AN INCREDIBLE TEACHER.

BOTH MY SISTER MARTHA WAINWRIGHT AND I WERE REALLY TRAINED BY HER FROM A VERY, VERY YOUNG AGE.

USED TO SING HARMONIES AND SING INSTRUMENTS AND SHE NEVER LET UP.

IT WASN'T ALWAYS EASY BUT IT PAID OFF, OBVIOUSLY.

WE MISS HER DEARLY.

WHAT'S REALLY NICE IS THAT THE LAST SONG ON THIS ALBUM IS CALLED "WILD MOUNTAIN TIME."

YOU CAN SEE IT THERE.

SHE PLAYED THE BANJO A LOT.

THE VERY LAST NOTE ON THE ALBUM IS MY MOTHER'S BANJO.

IT WAS REALLY GOOD TO GET THAT IN THERE.

>> I IMAGINE THAT WAS A REALLY EMOTIONAL THING TO ADD AS WELL FOR YOU AND PERSONAL.

>> YES.

>> HAS YOUR FATHER -- HAS YOUR FATHER GIVEN YOU ANY FEEDBACK ON THIS ALBUM?

DID YOU ASK FOR ANY?

>> NOT YET.

BUT I AM EXPECTING -- I AM EXPECTING I WILL GET SOME.

YOU KNOW, I -- LOOK, I THINK THE THING WITH MY DAD AND I IS WE GET ALONG WELL NOW.

IT'S BEEN ROCKY HERE AND THERE, BUT WE LOOK SO SIMILAR AND WE SOUND SO SIMILAR.

WE'RE A SLIGHTLY CARBON COPY OF ANYBODY.

WE FREAK EACH OTHER OUT BECAUSE WE'RE SO SIMILAR.

SO IT'S -- IN FACT, SOMEONE THE OTHER DAY SAID, I KNOW YOUR SON TO ME.

I SAID, I DON'T HAVE A SON.

YOU THINK I'M -- WHATEVER, IT'S COMPLICATED.

MY FATHER AND I ARE BECOMING THE SAME PERSON.

>> WOW.

THIS ALL GOES BACK TO THE WORLD YOU DESCRIBED ABOUT TURNING 50 AND SOMETHING IN THE CONSTELLATIONS THERE, NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN SOME PEOPLE ARE THINKING YOU ARE YOUR FATHER.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

>> THAT IS A COMPLIMENT I DO HAVE TO SAY.

>> IT IS.

IT IS.

>> GIVEN YOUR TALENTSS.

LET'S PLAY SOME MORE FROM THE ALBUM.

THIS IS "HARVEST."

YOU'RE JOINED BY SINGER SONGWRITER ALBERT BIRD AND BY NEIL YOUNG OBVIOUSLY.

♪ DID SHE WAKE YOU UP TO TELL YOU THAT THERE WAS A CHANGE IN PLANS ♪ ♪ DREAM UP, DREAM UP ♪ ♪ LET YOU FILL YOUR CUP ♪ ♪ WITH THE PROMISE OF A MAN ♪ >> IS IT DIFFICULT TO COLLABORATE WITH SNORES IS THIS ONE OF THESE CASES WHERE YOU HAVE TO CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR?

IS IT THE 50-50 TYPE OF PARTNERSHIP YOU VIEW IT AS?

TALK ABOUT THE PROCESS THAT YOU GO THROUGH.

>> YEAH.

P I WOULD SAY IN MOST CASES IT'S A JOY.

THERE ARE OCCASIONS WHERE IT CAN BE TOUGH, BUT WITH ANDREW BIRD AND CHRIS STILLS I SHOULD MENTION IN THERE WHO SINGS ON THAT, IT'S THRILLING.

I HAVE TO SAY, THAT'S ONE OF THE MAIN MESSAGES OF THIS ALBUM IS FOR PEOPLE TO RETURN A LITTLE BIT MORE TO THAT IDEA OF EVERYBODY GETTING TOGETHER IN A ROOM CREATING MUSIC REAL TIME WITHOUT TOO MANY DEVICES.

YES, IN MOST CASES IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST THRILLING THINGS ON THE PLANET WHEN YOU REALLY DO IT.

AND IT REALLY WORKS.

WITH THESE FOLKS, IT'S POSSIBLE.

THAT'S THE MESSAGE BEHIND THE RECORD.

>> WATCHING THE FILMING THERE, OBVIOUSLY COVID PLAYS A ROLE TOO.

>> YES.

YES.

>> HOW HAS THAT IMPACTED YOUR WORK?

>> LOOK, COVID IN GENERAL, IT WAS A TERRIBLE THING.

AS A TOURING MUSICIAN ON THE ROAD, I NEEDED A BREAK FROM BEING ON THE PLANE.

SO I TOOK FULL ADVANTAGE OF THAT PERIOD AND WROTE A LOT OF SONGS AND REALLY GOT TO FOCUS ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT MY DESIRES WERE ARTISTICALLY MOVING FORWARD.

SO IN A LOT OF WAYS I WOULD SAY THIS ALBUM SPRINGS FROM THAT BECAUSE I WAS ABLE TO STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT MATTERS TO ME MUSICALLY AND FOLK MUSIC AROSE AS A FEELING I HAD TO FOLLOW.

>> YOU DON'T ESCAPE POLITICS.

YOU RECORDED "GOING TO A TOWN."

THE TWO OF YOU, AS YOU'VE SAID, AN OPEN GAY MAN AND A TRANS WOMAN SING, QUOTE, TELL ME, DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU GO TO HELL FOR HAVING LOVED AND I'M SO TIRED OF YOU, AMERICA.

>> YEAH.

>> GIVE US THE BACKGROUND OF THIS SONG.

>> YEAH.

THE I MEAN, I WROTE THIS SONG MANY YEARS AGO AROUND THE TIME OF THE INVASION OF IRAQ, SO DURING THE BUSH YEARS.

AND SADLY THE SONG HAS BECOME A KIND OF -- TRADITIONAL THAT I CAN SING EVERY FEW YEARS GIVEN WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT IS A LOVE SONG BUT IT IS A PIECE OF MUSIC YOU COULD WRITE FOR SOMEONE THAT YOU HAVE A LOT OF EMOTIONS FOR, CARE ABOUT, ARE VERY SAD BUT YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN SELL THEM THE TRUTH AND WE DO FLUCTUATE SO MUCH.

SO IT'S NOT A TOTAL NEGATIVE SONG ABOUT THE U.S.

BUT IT IS DIFFICULT.

>> CHANGE AND GROWTH IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE.

QUICKLY, WE HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT.

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION YOU'RE NOT GOING TO LIKE.

ANY OF YOUR FAVORITES?

>> I SING WITH CHAKA KHAN SING WITH RUFUS IS THRILLING FOR THOSE WHO KNOW HER HISTORY.

SHE WAS IN A BAND CALLED RUFUS.

IN THE END, I HAVE TO SAY MY FAMILY.

WE END WITH MOUNTAIN.

>> I DID LOVE YOUR VERSION OF "COTTON EYE JOE."

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, RUFUS.

>>> FINALLY, WHO DOESN'T LOVE A SWIM IN THE SUNSHINE?

THESE TIGERS ARE ENJOYING THEIR FIRST SWIM, ACTUALLY.

EVEN FOR THE BIG CATS, GOING INTO THE WATER IT BE A LITTLE SCARY AT FIRST.

IT WASN'T LONG UNTIL THEY WERE UP AND PLAYING AROUND IN THEIR NEW POND.

THESE ARE THE RAREST SPECIES OF TIGER AND CRITICALLY ENDANGERED.

ONLY 300 LEFT IN THE WILD SADLY.

THE ZOO SAYS THE NEW ADDITION TO ARRIVE LAST YEAR ARE A GREAT BOOST TO THE CONSERVATION AND IT SEEMS THEY PASSED THEIR FIRST SWIMMING LESSON WITH FLYING COLORS.

THEY'VE MASTERED IT.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER ON PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.