ALI ROGIN: Now we turn to Jimmy Story, who spent 25 years in the U.S.

State Department and most recently served as the top U.S.

diplomat to Venezuela.

Ambassador, thank you so much for being with us.

Clearly, the military achieved its mission here, but as you wrote today, tactical victories do not portend success.

In terms of the wider strategy, how do you think the strategy is playing out so far?

JIMMY STORY, Former U.S.

Ambassador to Venezuela: Well, the first question is what's the desired end state?

And is the desired end state is regime change?

Well, we don't have that.

What you have is a removal of the top of the regime where you cut the head off one part of the head of a hydra and you have the rest of the regime in power.

Very laudatory words about Delcy Rodriguez.

But at the end of the day, Delcy has been very adamant that what we did was kidnapped Nicolas Maduro.

So remains to be seen exactly what the end state we're seeking is.

ALI ROGIN: Yeah.

So what do you make of the fact that President Trump today said that Rodriguez was planning to work with the United States and then just a few hours later she said basically exactly the opposite?

JIMMY STORY: Well, it is curious.

I don't know if this is the case, the dog that didn't bark or the dog that barks too much, but at the end of the day we're going to.

What the president also said was that if we didn't have the right kind of support, there would be a second wave of attacks.

For me, there's a clear indicator here.

Are the wrongfully detained American citizens being released and are the political and military prisoners that are being held in the torture center called the helicoide, are they being released?

And if they're not, then this is just the same regime by different leadership.

ALI ROGIN: I'd like to play for you some sound from Democratic Senator Tim Kaine today who criticized this as did many other critics, saying that this was illegal and unwise.

Take a listen.

SEN.

TIM KAINE (D) Virginia: When the United States engages in unlawful attacks on other nations' sovereignty, it sends a message to the worst dictators in the world that they can do so as well.

And I don't want the United States to send the message that anything goes.

I want the United States to send a message that supports human rights and the rule of law.

ALI ROGIN: So, Ambassador, what message does this send?

JIMMY STORY: Well, I think Senator Kaine is exactly right on this.

I have a lot of respect for Senator Kaine.

This is a bad message.

I mean, what are the Chinese thinking right now about Taiwan?

And certainly if you look at the Russians, they invaded a sovereign nation, Ukraine, three years ago, over three years ago now in front of the entire world.

So we've lost the moral high ground on these issues.

For me, this was about democracy.

Maduro lost an election last year.

It was about human rights.

He is confronted with crimes against humanity, is about narcotics trafficking.

Of course, there's also about 9 million Venezuelans who have had to flee to seek a better life.

That's 25 percent of the population of that country.

It was about all those things.

Yet the president goes on TV today to say it's about oil.

So this is very disconcerting.

ALI ROGIN: I'd like to return to what you said earlier about the head of the hydra being cut off, but the rest of it remaining.

Certainly other ministers who were part of the Maduro regime are still intact.

The director of the internal security force, the director of the semi-official motorcycle gang is known as the Colectivos so really what do you make and can you expand on how much change this is ultimately going to lead to on the ground given that the rest of the Maduro regime remains intact?

JIMMY STORY: Well, I'm talking to people on the ground in Caracas and they would love to go out and celebrate the end of Maduro's dictatorial regime, yet they're fearful to do so because they know that d'Estada Corbello (ph) and Freddy Bernal and rest of these people who were specially designated nationals on the SDN list from treasury, they're sanctioned people, are liable to unleash these Colectivos, these motorcycle gangs, semi-official motorcycle gangs that are heavily armed to go out and intimidate them and potentially to begin a bloodbath.

So you're not going to see the kind of natural reaction to a really despised figure.

Maduro is a despised figure.

We can debate the legality all day long.

He lost an election.

He is not particularly well liked inside of Venezuela.

But the people of Venezuela are very nervous to do anything because the regime is still intact.

ALI ROGIN: Ambassador James Story, thank you so much for joining us.

JIMMY STORY: Thanks for having me.