March 10, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO STAND UP FOR THE RIGHTS OF OUR CITIZENS WHO ARE WRONGFULLY DETAINED.

>> THE WORLD REACTS TO CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION FROM INSIDE IRAN'S NOTORIOUS PRISON.

AND EXPOSING THE TRUTH BEHIND THE LIES, THE POLITICAL AND MEDIA IMPLICATIONS OF THE DAMNING LAWSUIT AGAINST FOX NEWS.

ALSO AHEAD, WHY THE COVID LAB LEAK THEORY SHOULDN'T BE DISMISSED.

>> UNDERSTANDING WHAT WENT WRONG MUST BE THE FOUNDATION OF OUR EFFORTS TO SHORE UP OUR VULNERABILITIES.

>> HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO INSIDER JAMIE METZL ON THE ORIGINS OF THE OUTBREAK.

PLUS -- ♪ >> FROM FEMINISM TO PUERTO RICAN POLITICS, MY CONVERSATION WITH GRAMMY AWARD WINNING SINGER ILE.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT.

TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M MICHAEL HOLMES IN ATLANTA SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIAN AM POWER.

AN AMERICAN DETAINED IN IRAN TELEPHONING THIS PROGRAM FROM PRISON, DESPERATELY PLEADING TO PRESIDENT BIDEN TO GET HIM OUT.

HE HAS BEEN LOCKED UP FOR MORE THAN 7 YEARS ON CHARGES OF COLLABORATING WITH AN ENEMY STATE.

HE SAYS IT IS A SHAM AND CALLS HIMSELF A HOSTAGE.

HE'S GROWING INCREASINGLY DESPERATE BY THE DAY, SO MUCH SO HE MADE THE BOLD DECISION TO CALL OUT AND SPEAK TO CHR CHRISTIANE.

HE WAS CLEARLY EMOTIONAL, ADMITTEDLY NERVOUS, PLEADING FOR THE RELEASE OF NOT JUST HIM, BUT THE TWO OTHER AMERICANS IN IRAN AS WELL.

THE UNPRECEDENTED PHONE CALL GOT THE ATTENTION OF THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, WHICH WE'LL GET TO IN A BIT.

FIRST, A REMINDER OF THE EXTRAORDINARY CONVERSATION.

>> IT'S A RARE, RARE THING TO HEAR FROM SOMEBODY INSIDE PRISON.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU TO STATE YOUR NAME AND WHERE YOU ARE ACTUALLY TALKING TO US FROM?

>> THIS CALL IS BEING MADE FROM WARD 4 OF PRISON IN TEHRAN.

>> IT'S A LONG, LONG TIME SINCE WE LAST SPOKE WHEN WE MET IN IRAN.

I WANT TO SAY THIS IS VERY, VERY UNUSUAL TO SPEAK TO SOMEBODY INSIDE PRISON.

WHY ARE YOU SPEAKING TO US IN THIS WAY?

WHY ARE YOU SPEAKING OUT NOW?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, FIRST, IT'S GOOD TO HEAR YOUR VOICE AS WELL AFTER SO MANY YEARS DIRECTLY AND NOT ON A RECORDING THAT SOMEONE'S PLAYING BACK FOR ME.

I THINK THE VERY FACT THAT I'VE CHOSEN TO TAKE THIS RISK AND APPEAR ON CNN FROM PRISON SHOULD JUST TELL YOU HOW DIRE MY SITUATION HAS BECOME BY THIS POINT.

I'VE BEEN A HOSTAGE FOR 7 1/2 YEARS NOW.

THAT'S SIX TIMES THE DURATION OF THE HOSTAGE CRISIS.

I KEEP GETTING TOLD I'M GOING TO BE RESCUED AND DEALS FALL APART OR I GET ABANDONED.

THE OTHER HOSTAGES AND I DESPERATELY NEED PRESIDENT BIDEN TO FINALLY HEAR US OUT TO FINALLY HEAR OUR CRY FOR HELP AND BRING US HOME.

I SUPPOSE DESPERATE TIMES CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES.

SO THIS IS A DESPERATE MEASURE.

I'M CLEARLY NERVOUS.

JUST LIKE IT'S ODD FOR ME, IT'S VERY INTIMIDATING FOR ME TO DO THIS.

I FEEL I NEED TO BE HEARD.

I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG I HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE WHITE HOUSE UNDERSTANDS THAT WE NEED ACTION AND NOT JUST TO BE TOLD THAT BRINGING THIS OUT IS A PRIORITY.

>> WE WILL GET YOUR MESSAGE OUT TO THE WORLD.

THANK YOU FOR BEING SO BRAVE AS TO TALK TO US AT THIS TIME.

>> I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF I CAN ALSO GET A CHANCE TO ADDRESS THE PRESIDENT DIRECTLY.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> HONESTLY, I REALLY NEED TO BE HEARD.

I'M TAKING THIS RISK FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY, SO I HOPE YOU GIVE IT TO ME.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> OKAY.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN, I CERTAINLY HEAR AND I SINCERELY APPRECIATE YOUR ADMINISTRATION'S REPEATED DECLARATIONS OF FREEING THE AMERICAN HOSTAGES IN IRAN IS ITS TOP PRIORITY.

BUT I REMAIN DEEPLY WORRIED THAT THE WHITE HOUSE JUST DOESN'T APPRECIATE HOW DOIRE OUR SITUATION HAS BECOME.

IT'S ALSO VERY HURTFUL AND UPSETTING AFTER 25 MONTHS IN OFFICE YOU HAVEN'T FOUND THE TIME TO MEET WITH OUR FAMILY JUST TO GIVE THEM SOME WORDS OF ASSURANCE.

SIR, WE HAVE NOW COLLECTIVELY LANGUISHED HERE FOR 18 YEARS.

OUR LIVES AND FAMILIES HAVE BEEN UTTERLY DEVASTATED.

WE DESPERATELY, DESPERATELY NEED YOU TO FINALLY CONCLUDE THAT WE SUFFERED LONG ENOUGH AS IRAN HOSTAGES.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, YOU AND YOU ALONE HAVE THE POWER TO DELIVER AN OBAMA ADMINISTRATION'S BROKEN PROMISE TO MY FAMILY.

I IMPLORE YOU, SIR, TO PUT THE LIVES OF INNOCENT AMERICANS ABOVE ALL THE POLITICS INVOLVED AND TO JUST DO WHAT'S NECESSARY TO END THIS NIGHTMARE AND BRING US HOME.

THANK YOU.

>> NOW, THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT STILL HASN'T RESPONDED TO OUR REQUEST FOR COMMENT AND, AS FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, THEY SAY IRAN'S UNJUST IMPRISONMENT OF U.S. CITIZENS IS AN OUTRAGEOUS AND INHUMANE ACT.

STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN NED PRICE WAS ASKED ABOUT THE CALL.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> WE HAVE MADE VERY CLEAR TO THE REGIME SINCE THE EARLIEST DAYS OF THIS SEPAADMINISTRATION PRIORITY WE ATTACH TO SEEING THE PROMPT RELEASE OF THOSE AMERICANS WHO ARE DETAINED WRONGFULLY.

WE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO STAND UP FOR THE RIGHTS OF OUR CITIZENS WHO ARE WRONGFULLY DETAINED.

THAT, OF COURSE, INCLUDES SIMAK.

SENIOR OFFICIALS FROM THIS BUIBUILD ING AS WELL AS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE MEET AND CONSULT REGULARLY WITH THE FAMILY AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL THIS WRONGFUL AND UNACCEPTABLE DETENTION COMES TO AN END.

>> HIS LAWYER IS CHALLENGING THAT LAST PART, WRITING ON TWITTER, QUOTING HERE, CONTRARY TO ITS STATEMENT, THE NAMAZI FAMILY HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET AND CONSULT REGULARLY WITH SENIOR OFFICIALS OR ANY OFFICIALS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

THERE HAS BEEN A SINGLE MEETING WITH THE NSA'S JAKE SULLIVAN.

THE FAMILY HAS ENDURED A LOT, OBVIOUSLY, IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

HIS FAMILY ALSO WAS DETAINED AND BARRED FROM LEAVING IRAN UNTIL LAST OCTOBER, WHEN HE WAS LET GO ON MEDICAL GROUNDS.

HIS FATHER AND BROTHER SPOKE OUT YESTERDAY AFTER THE INTERVIEW AIRED.

>> I COULD NOT BE MORE PROUD OF HIS COURAGE, BUT I DON'T WANT HIM TO HAVE TO BE BRAVE ANYMORE.

I WANT HIM TO BE SAFE.

I WANT HIM TO BE FREE TO LIVE LIFE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN LIVING IF FOR THE PAST 7 YEARS.

I WANT HIM TO BE HOME.

>> PLEASE VISIT THE AMANPOUR AND COMPANY YOUTUBE PAGE FOR MORE.

TUNE IN NEXT WEEK WHEN CHRISTIANE RETURNS FOR CONTINUING COVERAGE OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT.

>>> WE TURN TO A BOMBSHELL LAWSUIT THAT EXPOSES SOME SHOCKING FACTS ABOUT THE INNER WORKINGS OF ONE OF AMERICA'S BIGGEST MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS.

DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS SAYS FOX NEWS CORPORATION IS SEEKING A FIRST AMENDMENT LICENSE TO KNOWINGLY SPREAD LIES.

IN A NEW COURT FILING, THE COMPANY CLAIMS FOX HAS ADMITTED THAT ITS ON-AIR STATEMENTS ABOUT DOMINION RIGGING THE 2020 ELECTION WERE FALSE.

AND THAT IS JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

A SLEW OF PRIVATE MESSAGES REVEAL WHAT HOST TUCKER CARLSON REALLY THINKS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

CORRESPONDENT PAULA REED WITH MORE.

>> THIS IS THE TUCKER CARLSON AMERICA SEES ON CAMERA.

>> THE OUTCOME OF OUR PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WAS SEIZED FROM THE HANDS OF VOTERS.

>> BUT NEW COURT DOCUMENTS REVEALING A VERY DIFFERENT CARLSON BEHIND THE SCENES, TEXTING A PRODUCER ON JANUARY 4th, 2021, JUST TWO DAYS BEFORE THE CAPITOL ATTACK SAYING OF TRUMP, I HATE HIM PASSIONATELY.

I CAN'T HANDLE MUCH MORE OF THIS.

WE ARE VERY, VERY CLOSE TO BEING ABLE TO IGNORE TRUMP MOST NIGHTS.

ADMITTING WHAT A DISASTER IT HAS BEEN IS TOO TOUGH TO DIGEST, BUT COME ON, THERE ISN'T REALLY AN UPSIDE TO TRUMP.

THOSE PRIVATE REMARKS A TOTAL CONTRAST TO CARLSON'S OTHER COMMENTS LIKE THESE.

>> I LOVE DONALD TRUMP AS A GUY.

I'M SO GRATEFUL DONALD TRUMP RAN IN 2016.

DONALD TRUMP, LIKE -- [ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] >> DONALD TRUMP COMPLETELY CHANGED MY VIEW OF EVERYTHING.

>> HIS PRIVATE MESSAGES WERE RELEASED AS PART OF DOMINION VOTING SYSTEM'S $1.6 BILLION DEFAMATION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE RIGHT-WING NETWORK, REVEALING THAT FOX NEWS STARS AND TOP EXECUTIVES DIDN'T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE LIE THEY PUT ON AIR THAT THE 2020 ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AMID FALLING RATINGS, THE NETWORK CONTINUED TO PROMOTE TRUMP AND HIS LIES.

>> VOTER FRAUD IS SOMETHING THAT IS REAL THAT JUST TOOK PLACE TWO WEEKS AGO.

>> WHAT HAPPENED WAS, THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE RIGGED THE GAME.

>> DESPITE HIS PRIOR PERSONAL OBJECTIONS TO TRUMP, CARLSON CONTINUES TO SUPPORT HIM PUBLICLY, DEFENDING HIM AFTER A SEARCH WARRANT WAS EXECUTED AT MAR-A-LAGO.

>> NO HONEST PERSON COULD BELIEVE THAT THE RAID ON DONALD TRUMP'S HOME LAST WEEK WAS A LEGITIMATE ACT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

IT WAS NOT.

>> AND SEEN HERE LAUGHING WITH TRUMP AT A GOLF TOURNAMENT OVER THE SUMMER.

>> PAULA REED REPORTING THERE FOR US.

NOW, THE LAWSUIT REVEALS THE SHOCKING CONTRADICTION BETWEEN FOX'S ON-AIR STATEMENTS AND THE PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS, SOME OF WHICH YOU JUST HEARD.

SO WHAT ARE THE MEDIA AND POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS OF ALL OF THIS?

I'M JOINED BY JOURNALISM PROFESSOR JAY ROSEN AND FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST SARAH LONGWELL.

I APPRECIATE YOU BOTH BEING WITH US.

PROFESSOR ROSEN, DOMINION CLAIMS FOX REPEATEDLY BROADCAST A SERIES OF VERIFIABLY FALSE LIES ABOUT DOMINION.

GIVEN THE HIGH BAR OF PROVING ACTUAL MALICE, KNOWLEDGE OF BROADCASTING FALSE INFORMATION, IT'S NOT EASY TO SUE A MEDIA COMPANY AND WIN IN THE UNITED STATES.

BUT ARE THESE DOCUMENTS, THOSE TEXTS AND SO ON, A SMOKING GUN?

>> WELL, THEY CONTAIN MANY SMOKING GUNS.

MOST FIRST AMENDMENT EXPERTS IN THE U.S.

THINK DOMINION HAS A VERY GOOD CHANCE OF WINNING, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE SHOCKING CONTENT OF THE TEXTS AND E-MAILS THAT SHOW FOX KNEW CLAIMS OF A STOLEN ELECTION WERE FRAUDULENT, BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THE HEAVY INVOLVEMENT OF THE LEADERSHIP OF FOX IN THIS KIND OF LYING.

AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, THE EVIDENCE BEING PRODUCED BY DOMINION IN THIS COURT CASE SHOWS THAT THE LEADERS, THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE AT FOX WERE AWARE OF WHAT WAS GOING ON, THEY WERE AFRAID OF THE AUDIENCE, THEY KNEW THAT SOME OF THE CRAZIER LAWYERS AND REPRESENTATIVES OF TRUMP WERE WRONG IN WHAT THEY WERE SAYING.

YET, THEY AIRED IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND YOU JUST DON'T SEE THIS COLLECTION OF FACTS VERY OFTEN IN FIRST AMENDMENT LAW, WHICH IS WHY MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT DOMINION HAS A VERY GOOD CHANCE OF PREVAILING.

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW, THOUGH, IS WILL DOMINION SIMPLY TRY AND BARGAIN FOR MORE MONEY, OR WILL IT TRY TO GET SERIOUSLY IMPORTANT ADMISSIONS FROM FOX, PLEDGES TO DO BETTER AND CONFESSIONS THAT ALL OF THIS IS TRUE?

>> JUST STAYING WITH YOU, PROFESSOR, FOX CLAIMS, IN THEIR WORDS, THE NETWORK WAS MERELY REPORTING ON NEWS WORTHY EVENTS AND DOMINION'S LAWSUIT IS AN UNPRECEDENTED ASSAULT ON THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

WHAT WOULD IT MEAN FOR PRESS FREEDOM IF FOX WINS OR LOSES?

COULD A LOSS FOR FOX IMPACT OTHER MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS?

>> ONE THING IT SAYS IS THERE ARE LIMITS TO PROPAGANDA, TO LYING ON TELEVISION, TO FOOLING, MISINFORMING VIEWERS.

THERE ARE LIMITS.

IF FOX WINS, IT KIND OF SAYS THE OPPOSITE, THERE ARE NO LIMITS, YOU COULD MAKE STUFF UP.

THIS IS ONE OF THE OTHER REASONS THIS CASE IS BEING CLOSELY WATCHED, BECAUSE OF THE IMPLICATIONS OF EITHER A LOSS OR A VICTORY BY DOMINION.

>> TURNING TO YOU, SARAH LONGWELL, THE SPECULATION IS THAT SPEAKER McCARTHY GAVE TUCKER CARLSON THE JANUARY 6TH VIDEOS, ALL OF THEM, AS PART OF DEALS DONE WITH THE RIGHT WING OF HIS PARTY IN ORDER TO GET THEIR SUPPORT FOR HIS SPEAKERSHIP.

DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY?

AND WHAT RISKS HAS HE TAKEN WITH HIS OWN REPUTATION, PARTICULARLY AMONG MORE MODERATE REPUBLICANS?

>> WELL, I'M NOT CERTAIN WHETHER OR NOT HE DID THAT.

ONE THING I AM CERTAIN OF IS THAT THE CLOSE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FOX NEWS AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS WITHOUT PARALLEL.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE SEEN AS THESE TEXT MESSAGES HAVE COME OUT IS THE WAY THAT FOX NEWS PRIME TIME HOSTS REGULARLY WERE TEXTING WITH THE CHIEF OF STAFF DURING JANUARY 6TH.

I MEAN, FOX NEWS IS OPERATING ESSENTIALLY AS A PROPAGANDA ARM FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

WE DO KNOW THAT KEVIN McCARTHY GAVE TUCKER CARLSON THOSE TAPES EXCLUSIVELY AND THAT TUCKER CARLSON IS A BAD FAITH ACTOR WHO HAS BEEN LYING ABOUT JANUARY 6TH.

SO PART OF WHAT WE CAN BE PRETTY CERTAIN THEY'RE DOING IS TRYING TO MUDDY THE WATERS AROUND WHAT HAPPENED DURING JANUARY 6TH.

THEY WANT TO CREATE AN ALTERNATE NARRATIVE THAT BENEFITS REPUBLICANS.

TUCKER CARLSON IS MORE THAN HAPPY TO BE THE PERSON THAT CARRIES THOSE MESSAGES.

YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, THIS QUESTION OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

THE ACCOUNTABILITY IS GOING TO HAVE TO COME FROM DOMINION, BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOING TO COME FROM THE FOX NEWS AUDIENCE.

IT IS NOT GOING TO COME FROM REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS.

THERE IS A MASSIVE VESTED INTEREST IN A BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE IN FOX NEWS NOT HAVING TO FACE ANY CONSEQUENCES.

SO IT REALLY IS GOING TO TAKE THAT LEGAL MECHANISM FOR SOMETHING TO CHANGE, BECAUSE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND FOX NEWS IS SO COZY AND SO MUTUALLY SELF-SERVING THAT NOBODY WANTS IT TO STOP.

>> TO THAT POINT, SARAH, THE SENATE MINORITY LEADER MITCH McCONNELL CRITICIZED CARLSON'S SELECTIVE EDITING OF THE VIDEO.

HE CITED A STATEMENT FROM THE CHIEF OF THE CAPITOL POLICE.

LET'S HAVE A LISTEN TO THAT.

>> CLEARLY, THE CHIEF OF THE CAPITOL POLICE, IN MY VIEW, CORRECTLY DESCRIBES WHAT MOST OF US WITNESSED FIRSTHAND ON JANUARY 6TH.

SO THAT'S MY REACTION TO IT.

IT WAS A MISTAKE, IN MY VIEW, FOR FOX NEWS TO DEPICT THIS IN A WAY THAT'S COMPLETELY AT VARIANCE WITH WHAT OUR CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL HERE AT THE CAPITOL THINKS.

>> YOU'VE GOT THE SENATE REPUBLICAN LEADER THERE CRITICIZING THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN LEADER, KEVIN McCARTHY, WHO GAVE CARLSON THE TAPES.

MITT ROMNEY'S CRITICIZED THE MOVE.

EVEN LINDSEY GRAHAM, OTHERS AS WELL.

GIVEN THAT COZY RELATIONSHIP WITH FOX THAT YOU SPEAK ABOUT, HOW IS THIS PLAYING OUT WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

ARE THERE FISSURES DEVELOPING?

>> I THINK ONE OF TUCKER CARLSON'S MISCALCULATIONS BY TRYING TO DRAMATICALLY DOWN PLAY WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6TH WAS THE FACT THAT ALL THOSE REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS WERE IN THE BUILDING BEING ATTACKED.

YOU KNOW, MITCH McCONNELL AND HIS COLLEAGUES WERE ATTACKED THAT DAY.

THEY SAW IT WITH THEIR OWN EYES.

THIS IS ONE OF THE STRANGEST THINGS ABOUT WHAT TUCKER CARLSON IS DOING, IS HE'S TRYING TO CREATE A NARRATIVE THAT FORCES US TO DENY WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH OUR OWN EYES AND EARS.

FOR THOSE REPUBLICANS WHO WERE IN THE BUILDING THAT DAY, THEY WERE AFRAID FOR THEIR LIVES.

SO I THINK IT TAKES A LOT TO GET ANY REPUBLICAN OFFICIAL TO BE WILLING TO BE CRITICAL OF FOX NEWS, BUT IT DOES SEEM LIKE TUCKER CARLSON TRYING TO SAY THE MORTAL PERIL THEY FACED ON THAT DAY WAS INSIGNIFICANT AND NOT REAL, WAS ENOUGH TO AT LEAST HAVE THEM SPEAK OUT AND SAY THAT WAS WRONG.

>> PROFESSOR ROSEN, LET'S GO BACK TO YOU.

WHEN IT COMES TO THOSE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF VIDEO KEVIN McCARTHY GAVE TO TUCKER CARLSON, WHO THEN SELECTIVELY EDITED, CHERRY PICKED JANUARY 6TH FOOTAGE TO PRESENT THAT FALSE NARRATIVE, HERE'S HOW HE INTRODUCED HIS VERSION OF THAT FOOTAGE EARLIER THIS WEEK.

>> WITH THAT, HERE'S THE VIDEO.

IT DOESN'T ANSWER EVERY QUESTION FROM JANUARY 6TH.

FAR FROM IT.

BUT IT DOES PROVE BEYOND DOUBT THAT DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS, ASSISTED BY ADAM KINZINGER AND LIZ CHENEY, LIED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.

THEY ARE LIARS.

THAT IS CONCLUSIVE, AND THAT FACT SHOULD PREVENT THEM FROM EVER BEING TAKEN SERIOUSLY AGAIN.

>> SO, PROFESSOR, LIES ARE TRUTH AND TRUTH IS A LIE, IT SEEMS.

YOU'VE SPOKEN OF FOX'S STRATEGY OF I THINK YOU CALLED IT MANIPULATED RAGE.

HOW CAN FOX FIGURE OUT WHICH WAY IS UP?

DO THEY CARE WHETHER CARLSON TELLS THE TRUTH OR NOT?

>> I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY THINGS ABOUT THIS EPISODE IS THAT FOX IS IN A WAY PURSUING TRUTH FROM THE DEMAND SIDE RATHER THAN FROM THE SUPPLY SIDE.

MEANING, THERE IS A DEMAND AMONG CORE FOX VIEWERS FOR THE EVENTS OF JANUARY 6TH TO BE HARMLESS.

THERE IS A DEMAND FOR THE EVENTS OF JANUARY 6TH TO BE CARRIED OUT BY THE LEFT, FOR IT TO BE A KIND OF PICNIC.

WHAT FOX AND TUCKER CARLSON IS DOING HERE IS THEY'RE CATERING FOR A DEMAND FOR HISTORY TO BE DIFFERENT THAN IT ACTUALLY IS.

THIS NOT ONLY CONTRADICTS THE EXPERIENCE OF THE POLITICIANS IN THE CAPITOL, BUT IT TELLS THE VIEWERS AT HOME TO KIND OF DENY THE EVIDENCE OF THEIR OWN EYES AND EARS.

AND THAT IS HUBRIS.

IT'S A LONG STRETCH.

BUT IT'S SERVING THIS KIND OF DEMAND FOR THINGS TO BE TRUE THAT AREN'T.

AND THAT IS OF GREAT CONSEQUENCE GOING FORWARD, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE LAWSUIT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING.

>> I THINK, FRANKLY, PEOPLE WOULD THINK IT'S DANGEROUS AS WELL.

SARAH LONGWELL, FOX CEO LACHLAN MURDOCH JUST DESCRIBED ALL OF THIS AS, IN HIS WORDS, NOISE.

YOU HAD CHAIRMAN RUPERT MURDOCH REPEATEDLY SAYING IN HIS DEPOSITION THAT HE DIDN'T BELIEVE THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THAT HIS HOSTS WENT TOO FAR IN SPREADING THOSE THEORIES.

IN THE CASE OF CARLSON, THOSE THEORIES, THE LIES CONTINUE TO GET OXYGEN FROM HIM.

WHY DO YOU THINK MURDOCH, IF HE THINKS SUCH THINGS ARE NONSENSE, ALLOWS CARLSON TO PUSH THE LIES?

>> IT'S 100% THESE COMPETITIVE PRESSURES BUILDING UP AGAINST FOX NEWS.

IF FOX NEWS DOESN'T GIVE THE AUDIENCE WHAT IT WANTS, THERE IS A WHOLE RIGHT-WING MEDIA ECOSYSTEM, NEWSMAX, STEVE BANNON'S WAR ROOM, PODCASTS, RADIO SHOWS THAT IS WILLING TO GIVE THESE VOTERS WHAT THEY WANT.

SO JUST FROM A COMPETITIVE BUSINESS PRACTICE, THAT'S WHY THEY FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO DO IT.

I CONDUCT REGULAR FOCUS GROUPS WITH REPUBLICAN VOTERS.

EVERY WEEK I LISTEN TO REPUBLICAN VOTERS.

WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS THIS STUFF ISN'T JUST HAPPENING IN A VACUUM.

PEOPLE BELIEVE THIS.

I MEAN, 70% OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BELIEVED THAT THE 2020 ELECTION WAS STOLEN, BECAUSE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE FOX NEWS TOLD THEM.

ALL OF THEIR HOSTS KNEW THEY WERE LYING.

THAT'S WHAT COMES THROUGH IN THESE TEXT MESSAGES.

THE HOSTS DIDN'T BELIEVE THE VOTING MACHINES WERE SWITCHING THINGS, AND YET THEIR HOSTS WOULD TALK ABOUT IT.

THEY WOULD HAVE SIDNEY POWELL OR RUDY GIULIANI COME ONTO SPEW LIES.

THAT IS PART OF THE REASON PEOPLE WENT TO THE CAPITOL THAT DAY, IS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED THE LIE THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN AND THEY WERE LOOKING TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS, BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THAT IT HAD BEEN STOLEN FROM THEM.

SO THE DAMAGE BEING DONE HERE TO PEOPLE BELIEVING THE LIES IS VERY REAL.

I HAVE A DEEP HOPE THAT DOMINION, BY PURSUING THIS LEGALLY, COULD SEEK SOME ACCOUNTABILITY AND SOME CHANGE, BECAUSE IT IS HAVING AN ENORMOUSLY DAMAGING IMPACT ON OUR POLITICS.

>> PROFESSOR, AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION, THEN FOX NEWS D.C.

MANAGING EDITOR BILL SALMON MESSAGED A COLLEAGUE TO SAY FOX'S COVERAGE OF FALSE ELECTION CLAIMS HAD BECOME, IN HIS WORDS, AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS FOR THE NETWORK.

HE SAID, IT'S REMARKABLE HOW WEAK RATINGS MAKE GOOD JOURNALISTS DO BAD THINGS.

HAS ALL OF THIS EXPOSED THE FRAGILITY OF RELIABLE REPORTING?

>> I THINK IT HAS EXPOSED THE FRAGILITY OF FOX NEWS AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE SENSE THAT BOTH OF THEM DEPEND ON A CORE VIEWERSHIP THAT ISN'T READY TO KNOW WHAT THE REST OF THE WORLD KNOWS.

THEY CAN'T STOP FROM DEMANDING WHAT THEY WANT.

THIS THREATENS TO UNDERMINE THE ENTIRE BUSINESS BEHIND FOX NEWS, JUST AS IT THREATENS THE DESIRE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO MOVE ON FROM JANUARY 6TH AND THE EVENTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION.

THEY CAN'T, BECAUSE THIS CORE GROUP OF VOTERS AND VIEWERS WON'T ALLOW THEM TO DO THAT.

SO THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT KIND OF WANTS TO LIVE IN AN ALTERNATIVE HISTORY, AND IT CAN'T, BUT IT WANTS TO, HAS GOT THE FATE OF BOTH THE PARTY AND FOX NEWS IN ITS HANDS.

>> THE TRIAL HASN'T EVEN BEGUN YET, SO A LOT MORE WILL UNFOLD OVER THE MONTHS AHEAD.

PROFESSOR JAY ROSEN, ALSO SARAH LONGWELL, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU BOTH AND YOUR ANALYSES HERE.

THANKS SO MUCH.

>>> NEXT, WE TURN TO A VOICE WHO IS PUSHING FOR CHANGE IN HER HOME OF PUERTO RICO AND BEYOND.

GRAMMY-AWARD WINNING SINGER ILE'S MUSIC IS BECOMING AN ANTHEM FOR MASS PROTESTS.

IT DID SO ON THE ISLAND BACK IN 2019.

SHE'S NOW RELEASED HER THIRD ALBUM.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >>> AND IT TACKLES EVERYTHING FROM COLONIALISM TO FEMINISM WITH REFLECTIONS ON LOVE IN BETWEEN.

THE MUSIC VIDEO FOR HER FEMINIST TRACK PREMIERED JUST LAST WEEK.

ILE IS CURRENTLY TOURING THE U.S.

I'M DELIGHTED TO SAY SHE JOINS ME LIVE FROM LOS ANGELES.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR DOING SO.

NIC NACARILE IS YOUR THIRD ALBUM.

IT CAN BE TRANSLATED AS NO WAY OR NOT AT ALL.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DO WITH THE ALBUM AND THE SPIRIT OF IT?

>> WELL, IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO CONCENTRATE MAKING THIS ALBUM.

I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY.

OBVIOUSLY AFTERWARDS IS WHERE I UNDERSTOOD THAT WE ARE LIVING IN A CHAOTIC MOMENT DURING THE PANDEMIC, AND THAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR ALL OF US.

SO FOR ME AS WELL, AND I WAS EXPECTING EVERYTHING TO BE AS NORMAL IN THE CREATIVE PROCESS, BUT I FELT BETTER WHEN I ACKNOWLEDGED THAT I WASN'T GOING TO FEEL NORMAL AND I HAD TO DEAL WITH THAT AND PLAY AROUND WITH IT.

SO I THINK I FELT BETTER AT THE SAME TIME WHEN I TRIED TO CONFRONT MY OWN UNCOMFORTABLENESS DURING THE PROCESS AND TRIED TO FIND MY WAY TO TRANSCEND IT.

NACARILE IS AN EXPRESSION WE USE IN PUERTO RICO WHEN WE WANT TO SAY NO WITH A LOT OF ATTITUDE AND A LOT OF DETERMINATION.

FOR ME, IT FELT LIKE A MOTIVATIONAL NO IN BETWEEN THESE TROUBLESOME MOMENTS MAKING THE ALBUM.

>> APART FROM THE MESSAGE, IT'S FANTASTIC MUSIC.

I WAS IN PUERTO RICO AP HURRAFTER HURRICANE IRMA AND AHEAD OF HURRICANE MARIA.

I SAW THE DAMAGE DONE BY BOTH OF THOSE.

IT WAS STAGGERING THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE REGION.

AFTER THE 2019 PROTEST, THE BOTCHED REBUILDING, MISGOVERNANCE, CORRUPTION AND SO ON, YOU WROTE AND SANG ABOUT THAT AND HAD A HUGE IMPACT.

SPEAK THEN TO THE POWER OF SONG WHEN IT COMES TO INJUSTICE AND THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE.

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY HOW WE SAY IN SPANISH, OUR KIND OF RELEASE, ESPECIALLY IN PUERTO RICO IN THE CARIBBEAN.

I FEEL THAT WE USE MUSIC AND DANCING AS A WAY OF RELEASING AND HEALING EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT COMES FROM OUR ROOTS.

WE STILL HAVE A WAY TO CONNECT THROUGH THAT MUSICALITY.

SOMETIMES IT BECOMES INFORMAL.

SOMETIMES WE CHANT CLASSICAL CHANTINGS.

BUT IT'S NICE WHEN WE CONNECT LIKE THE PRESENT WITH OUR CULTURE.

SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE FEEL THAT WE NEED TO, AND IT MAKES US FEEL MORE TOGETHER AND DEFINITELY GIVES A LOT OF POWER TO THE MESSAGE THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEND.

>> YEAH.

WE MENTIONED THE OFFICIAL VIDEO WITH IVY QUEEN.

IT CELEBRATES WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH.

IT IS A FEMINIST SONG.

IT FLIPS THE PHRASE "TELL ME SOMETHING GOOD" INTO A DEMAND FOR ACTION.

LET'S WATCH A CLIP OF THAT.

♪ ♪ ♪ >> IT'S TERRIFIC STUFF.

APART FROM THAT PHRASE "TELL ME SOMETHING GOOD," THERE ARE LYRICS THAT YOU WRITE LIKE "WHEN I SPIT, IT'S LIKE FIRE AND ACID."

WHAT WAS THE MESSAGE FROM A SONG FROM A FEMINIST PERSPECTIVE?

>> IT STARTED OUT AS A VERY COMBATIVE SONG.

I FEEL THAT IT COMES FROM OUR FRUSTRATION.

I FEEL THAT EVERY TIME WE TRY TO SEND A MESSAGE AND PROTEST AND GO OUT ON THE STREETS BECAUSE WE STILL ARE NOT RECEIVING THE LIVES THAT CORRESPOND TO US AND WE STILL ARE FIGHTING SO MANY THINGS WE SHOULDN'T BE FIGHTING, BUT WE NEED TO.

I FEEL THAT WE ALWAYS RECEIVE A LOT OF PRAIHUMILIATION IN OUR MESSAGE.

THAT'S WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT PROBLEM WE'RE GOING THROUGH AS WOMEN IN THIS WORLD IS URGENT AND WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF IT.

I FEEL THAT VIOLENCE IS SO SILENT AND SO NORMALIZED THAT WE DON'T EVEN REALIZE IT IS AN URGENT PROBLEM BECAUSE WE ARE SO ACCUSTOMED TO IT.

BUT WE SHOULDN'T BE.

FOR ME, THIS SONG COMES FROM THAT ANGER AND THAT COURAGE THAT I FEEL THAT WE NEED TO HAVE EVEN THOUGH WE FEEL THAT WE ARE NOT BEING WELL RECEIVED, WE'RE BEING HUMILIATED FROM THE MESSAGE.

I FEEL THAT WE STILL NEED TO KEEP GOING AND WE STILL NEED TO WORK IT OUT AS A SOCIETY.

THAT'S WHY I FEEL THAT EDUCATION WITH PERSPECTIVE CAN HELP US MAYBE TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT BETTER WAYS TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER MORE AND RESPECT EACH OTHER MORE.

>> IT'S SOMETHING YOU'VE SUNG ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME.

PUERTO RICO IS A U.S.

TERRITORY, OF COURSE.

IT'S NEITHER STATE, NOR COUNTRY.

HOW MUCH DID HURRICANES LIKE MARIA, FIONA AS WELL EXPOSE WHEN IT COMES TO PUERTO RICO'S LACK OF REPRESENTATION IN WASHINGTON?

AND WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN WITH PUERTO RICO'S STATUS?

>> WELL, I KNOW AS ANY CHANGE IS GOING TO BE A TOUGH TRANSITION, BUT I THINK WE CAN MAKE IT WORK SOMEHOW.

I DO BELIEVE IN WHAT WE CAN DO AS A COUNTRY EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MORE ACCUSTOMED TO LISTEN THAT WE'RE NOT WORTHY, THAT WE'RE LAZY.

I FEEL THAT WE'RE NOT ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

WE ARE LIVING IN A CRISIS IN PUERTO RICO.

WORSE THAN THE HURRICANES WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH, I THINK, HAS BEEN THE MISMANAGEMENT OF PUERTO RICO'S GOVERNMENT, BUT ALSO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

IT'S SAD TO SEE THAT, BUT WE ARE LIVING IN A SITUATION AND IT'S HAPPENING WORLD WIDE.

LIKE, PEOPLE DON'T HAVE PLACES TO LIVE.

THEY HAVE TO WONDER WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO LIVE.

THEY CANNOT LIVE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY BECAUSE IT'S NOT AFFORDABLE.

PUERTO RICO BEING AN ISLAND THAT IS SO SMALL, WHERE DO WE GO?

WE ARE SURROUNDED BY WATER.

SO IT'S NOT FAIR THAT FROM A CRISIS, FROM A VULNERABLE SITUATION A LOT OF WEALTHY PEOPLE ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE FROM THAT AND LIVING ON THE ISLAND BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PAYING TAXES.

FOR ME, IT'S SAD THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF PUERTO RICO ARE NOT TAKING CARE OF THAT AT ALL.

THEY'RE NOT TAKING ANY MEASURES FROM THAT.

AND THE PUERTO RICAN PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING A LOT.

I THINK WE COULD DO SOMETHING MORE ABOUT IT.

I THINK WE COULD BE MORE IN THE STREETS.

I THINK THERE COULD BE A BIG REVOLUTION FROM THIS, BECAUSE IT'S A VERY CRITICAL AND TOUGH SITUATION THAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

SO THREE CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED ALBUMS ENCOURAGING POLITICAL AND SOCIAL CHANGE, PROMOTING IF HE CAN NIFEMMEIFEMINISM.

WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOU AND ARE YOU HOPEFUL FOR PUERTO RICO'S FUTURE?

>> I AM ALWAYS HOPEFUL.

AFTER THE HURRICANES, A LOT OF AGRICULTURE GOT LOST AND IT WAS A DISASTER.

YOU CAN SEE HOW PEOPLE IN FARMS ARE MAKING IT GO BACK AGAIN TOGETHER.

AS PUERTO RICANS, WE ARE REALLY DOING A LOT.

THAT MAKES ME PROUD AND TOTALLY HOPEFUL ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN DO.

WE JUST NEED TO TRUST IN EACH OTHER A LOT MORE AND WE NEED TO BE TRUSTING MORE IN PUERTO RICANS RATHER THAN THE GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BEEN CORRUPT AND HAS LIED TO US FOR A LOT OF YEARS AND WE'RE TIRED OF IT.

SO I FEEL WE NEED TO SHOW OUR TRUE SELVES A LOT MORE.

I FEEL HOPEFUL ALWAYS.

IT'S WHAT KEEPS ME GOING.

I TRY TO MANAGE THAT THROUGH THE SONGS THAT I WORK ON AND IT HEALS ME.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO, TRY TO FIND WAYS TO FEEL FREE AND HEAL MORE.

>> IT'S A GREAT OUTLOOK.

WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, BUT I DID WANT TO TOUCH ON THIS, BECAUSE YOU'VE CALLED YOURSELF THE LITTLE ONE IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD GROWING UP.

YOU HAD SUCCESS IN A BAND WITH YOUR BROTHERS.

HOW DID YOUR OWN BRINUPBRINGING SHAPE YOU AND YOUR MUSIC?

>> I THINK IT WAS VERY UNEXPECTED FOR US AS A FAMILY EVEN THOUGH WE ARE ALL ARTISTS.

IT WAS SURPRISING FOR US TO HAVE A GREAT TIME WITH MY BROTHERS TRAVELING.

IT WAS A GREAT SCHOOL FOR ME.

I LEARNED A LOT AND I FEEL SUPER GRATEFUL THAT I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY NOT ONLY TO TRAVEL THE WORLD AND LEARN DIFFERENT CULTURES AND DIFFERENT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, BUT ALSO TRAVELING WITH MY FAMILY WAS A LOT OF FUN AND I ALWAYS FEEL GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

>> GRAMMY-AWARD WINNING SINGER ILE, A REAL PLEASURE TO CHAT WITH YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THE TIME.

>> YOU TOO.

THANK YOU.

HAVE A GOOD DAY.

>> YOU TOO.

>>> ALL RIGHT.

TURNING NOW TO CHINA, WHERE XI JINPING HAS NOW FORMALLY SECURED A RECORD-BREAKING THIRD TERM AS PRESIDENT.

THAT MAKES HIM THE LONGEST SERVING HEAD OF STATE OF COMMUNIST CHINA SINCE IT WAS FOUNDED IN 1949.

THE ORIGIN OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC IS AMONG A HOST OF ISSUES DRIVING A WEDGE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE WEST.

U.S. DEVELOPMENT INSIDER JAMIE M METZL WARNED LAWMAKERS NOT TO DISMISS THE IDEA THAT THE VIRUS LEAKED FROM A CHINESE LAB.

HE SPEAKS WITH HAR I SREENIVASA ABOUT WHAT COULD HAVE SPARKED THE PANDEMIC.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

EARLIER THIS WEEK, YOU TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF A HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ORIGINS OF THE CORONAVIRUS.

WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THAT QUESTION?

>> IT'S THREE YEARS AFTER THE START OF THIS TERRIBLE, DEADLY PANDEMIC.

20 MILLION PEOPLE ARE DEAD.

UNDERSTANDING WHAT WENT WRONG MUST BE THE FOUNDATION OF OUR EFFORTS TO SHORE UP OUR VULNERABILITIES AND MAKE SURE THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

WE'RE ENTERING A NEW ERA OF SYNTHETIC BIOLOGY WHERE WE CAN IMAGINE PANDEMICS MUCH DEADLIER THAN COVID-19.

IF WE DON'T FEARLESSLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WENT WRONG AND FIX OUR BIGGEST PROBLEMS, FUTURE GENERATIONS OR EVEN OURSELVES A FEW YEARS FROM NOW ARE GOING TO BE SAYING, WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THE HARD WORK NOW WHEN YOU COULD?

>> ONE OF THE QUOTES IN YOUR TESTIMONY SAID, "THERE IS NO SMOKING GUN PROVING A LAB ORIGIN HYPOTHESIS, BUT THE GROWING BODY OF EVIDENCE SUGGESTS A GUN THAT AT THE VERY AT LEAST IS WARM TO THE TOUCH."

WHAT LEADS YOU TO THAT CONCLUSION?

>> IT'S REALLY A GROWING BODY OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE.

I, AS YOU KNOW, HAD THOSE SUSPICIONS EARLIEST ON.

BUT RIGHT NOW THE PANDEMIC STARTED IN WUHAN.

WE KNOW THAT THE ANCESTRAL ORIGIN IS A VIRUS THAT WAS LIVING IN HORSESHOE BATS.

THESE KIND OF HORSESHOE BATS AREN'T IN WUHAN.

IT'S MORE THAN A THOUSAND MILES AWAY FROM THEIR NATURAL RANGE.

WHAT YOU DO HAVE IN WUHAN IS THE FIRST LEVEL 4 VIROLOGY LAB WITH THE COLLECTION OF CORONAVIRUSES THAT WAS DOING EXPERIMENTS INSERTING CLEAVAGE SITES.

BASICALLY THE CELLULAR MACHINERY ALLOWING VIRUSES TO INFECT HUMANS IN SARS-LIKE VIRUSES.

LO AND BEHOLD, WE HAVE THE ONLY KNOWN SARS-LIKE VIRUS EVER THAT HAS THIS HUMAN SPECIFIC SITE THAT DOESN'T SHOW UP IN SOUTHERN CHINA WHERE YOU THINK SOMETHING LIKE THIS MIGHT IF IT EVOLVED NATURALLY.

BUT IN WUHAN, OF ALL THE PLACES IN THE WORLD, I JUST THINK THE OVERWHELMING CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE WEIGHS IN FAVOR OF A POSSIBLE RESEARCH RELATED ORIGIN.

BUT WE NEED A FULL INVESTIGATION.

IF THERE'S ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THAT CONVINCES ME OTHERWISE, I'LL HAPPILY CHANGE MY VIEW.

>> RIGHT NOW THAT THEORY HAS BEEN BOLSTERED BY YET ANOTHER U.S. AGENCY.

THE ENERGY ADMINISTRATION CAME OUT AND SAID THEY HAD WITH LOW CONFIDENCE AN IDEA THIS IS WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.

NOW, WHAT'S STRANGE, I THINK, FOR AMERICANS IS WHY THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT AGENCIES THAT HAVE SUCH DIFFERENT VIEWS ON THIS.

I MEAN, THE DEGREE OF CONFIDENCE OR SHOULD I BELIEVE THE FBI, SHOULD I BELIEVE THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, SHOULD I BELIEVE THE NIH OR THE CDC?

SOME OF THOSE AGENCIES SAY THIS IS ZOONOTIC OR IT CAME FROM AN ANIMAL TO HUMANS AND IT WASN'T MAYBE FROM A LAB.

>> IT'S HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT THAT THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY SHIFTED ITS VIEW OVER TIME FROM THINKING IT PROBABLY COMES FROM NATURE TO IT PROBABLY COMES FROM A LAB.

MOST PEOPLE THINK THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY IS LIKE THE ELECTRIC COMPANY, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY OVERSEES THE 17 U.S. NATIONAL LABORATORIES.

IT'S ONE OF THE LARGEST EMPLOYERS OF SCIENTISTS IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING SOME OF THE MOST SOPHISTICATED SCIENTISTS INCLUDING BIOLOGISTS IN THE WORLD.

SO THAT'S VERY SIGNIFICANT.

THE UNITED STATES HAS MANY DIFFERENT INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.

WE WANT THEM ALL TO BE DIGGING.

THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF AN OVERHANG OF THE INTELLIGENCE FAILURES PRECEDING THE IRAQ WAR THAT HAVE INSTILLED A LEVEL OF CAUTION IN MANY OF OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.

BUT THE BASIC FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT CHINA HAS DONE EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PREVENT THE KIND OF FULL INVESTIGATION THAT'S REQUIRED.

THEY'VE DESTROYED SAMPLES, HIDDEN RECORDS, IMPRISONED CHINESE JOURNALISTS FOR ASKING BASIC QUESTIONS.

THEY HAVE A GAG ORDER ON CHINESE SCIENTISTS.

THEY'VE PREVENTED NATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS.

SO WE'RE TRYING TO PIECE TOGETHER A STORY WHILE CHINA IS AGGRESSIVELY TRYING TO COVER UP THAT STORY.

IN MY MIND, THAT'S A PIECE OF EVIDENCE ITSELF.

WE DON'T WANT, AS WE EXPERIENCED IN IRAQ, WE DON'T WANT OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS PREMATURELY.

WHAT WE DO WANT IS THEM TO BE DIGGING AGGRESSIVELY AS WE MOVE TO TRY TO GET THE RIGHT ANSWER.

>> LET'S TALK A BIT ABOUT THE TIME AND PLACE OF WHEN THIS THEORY GAINED TRACTION.

YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT THIS AS A POSSIBILITY.

BUT REALLY 2 1/2 YEARS AGO OR SO, WHEN THAT THOUGHT AND IDEA CAME INTO THE PUBLIC SPHERE, IT WAS OUTRIGHT REJECTED BY SOME SCIENTISTS, BUT IT WAS ALSO LOOKED AT THROUGH A VERY POLITICAL LENS.

WHAT KIND OF DAMAGE DID WE DO TO OURSELVES?

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WHEN I STARTED MAKING THIS CASE, I REALLY STARTED LOOKING IN LATE JANUARY OF 2020, JANUARY 24th OF 2020 THERE WAS A VERY IMPORTANT PAPER IN THE BRITISH JOURNAL "THE LANCET" WHICH SHOWED MORE THAN A THIRD OF THE EARLIEST CASES OF COVID-19 WERE OF PEOPLE WHO HAD NO EXPOSURE TO THE SEAFOOD MARKET IN WUHAN.

IN THE EARLY DAYS, IN FEBRUARY AND MARCH IN 2020, THERE WERE THESE HIGH PROFILE LETTERS, ONE IN THE LANCET AND ANOTHER IN THE NATURE MEDICINE CALLING PEOPLE LIKE ME, WHO WERE RAISING ESSENTIAL COMMON SENSE QUESTIONS ABOUT PANDEMIC ORIGINS, CONSPIRACY THEORISTS FOR NOT FALLING INTO LINE FOR THIS UNPROVEN HYPOTHESIS THAT IT CAME FROM NATURE OR FROM A MARKET.

IT WAS REALLY JUST VERY DISCOURAGING AT THAT TIME.

SO THERE WAS JUST A SMALL HANDFUL OF US AND WE JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE BULLIED INTO SILENCE OR SUBMISSION.

SO WE WORKED EXTREMELY HARD OVER THE COURSE OF THAT YEAR.

I REACHED OUT TO SO MANY SCIENCE EDITORS AND JOURNALISTS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AROUND THE WORLD SAYING, HEY, YOU'RE MISSING THE STORY, HERE'S THE EVIDENCE THAT I'M COMPILING.

REALLY IN EARLY 2021, WHEN THAT STORY STARTED TO BREAK, OUR COMMUNITY, WHICH OTHERS HAVE CALLED THE PARIS GROUP, WE ISSUED OPEN LETTERS THAT WERE FEATURED IN PRETTY MUCH EVERY MAJOR NEWSPAPER AROUND THE WORLD.

THERE STARTED TO BE MORE OF AN OPEN CONVERSATION.

I THINK THE WORLD HAS STARTED TO SHIFT TO THE POINT THAT YESTERDAY IN THESE HEARINGS WHERE THERE WAS COMPLETE CONSENSUS AMONG THE CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES, EVERYBODY AGREED THAT A LAB ORIGIN WAS A VERY CREDIBLE HYPOTHESIS.

SO NOW THAT ISSUE IS ALMOST ONE THAT'S A CREDIBLE HYPOTHESIS.

WE STILL THESE A COMPREHENSIVE INVESTIGATION WITH FULL ACCESS TO ALL THE RELEVANT DATA.

>> SO HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS PERHAPS BECAUSE OF ONE OF THE MESSENGERS OR PROPONENTS OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, BECAUSE HE COATED HIS WORDS AND PHRASES ABOUT THIS VIRUS IN LANGUAGE THAT SO MANY PEOPLE FOUND DETESTABLE AND RACIST AND THAT THIS THEORY THAT IT CAME FROM THE LAB STARTED TO ATTRIBUTE SOMETHING THAT WAS UNPALATABLE TO POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

>> YEAH.

SO I'M A PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT.

I WAS A FIERCE CRITIC OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I WAS COMPLETELY UNHAPPY AND VOCALLY SO WITH A LOT OF WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID AND SAID, AND I COMPLETELY DISTRUSTED HIS MOTIVES.

BUT AS A THINKING PERSON, I DIDN'T THINK THAT THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO THAT WAS TO FEEL, WELL, IF TRUMP SAYS SOMETHING, THEN I NEED TO SAY AND BELIEVE THE OPPOSITE.

SO FOR ME, WHEN I STARTED LOOKING AT THIS, I WAS SEEING A STORY THAT JUST COINCIDENTALLY WAS CONNECTED IN THE EARLIEST DAYS WHILE DONALD TRUMP WAS EFFUSIVE IN HIS PRAISE OF PRESIDENT XI JINPING AND WHEN THINGS STARTED TO GO SOUTH, THE STORY CHANGED.

OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T TRUST THOSE MOTIVES.

MY VIEW WAS LET'S TRY TO GET TO THE RIGHT ANSWER REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICS.

I KNOW THAT FRIEND OF MINE REACHED OUT TO ME AND SAID WHAT ARE YOU DOING, YOUR NARRATIVE IS SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP.

I KEPT SAYING THIS ISN'T ABOUT TRUMP OR ANYBODY ELSE.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE DYING.

THIS IS ABOUT GETTING TO THE RIGHT ANSWER.

I DO THINK THAT ALSO THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GOT INTO THIS HABIT THAT I THINK BECAME A LITTLE BIT LAZY, WELL, TRUMP SAYS SOMETHING AND THEN WE HAVE A FACT CHECK STORY WHICH SAYS HERE'S WHAT TRUMP SAID AND HERE'S WHY IT'S LYING AND WE'RE GOING TO ADD THIS TO THE LIST THAT THE "WASHINGTON POST" AND OTHERS WERE KEEPING OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OUTRIGHT LIES.

BUT EVEN A BROKEN CLOCK IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY.

IN MY VIEW, IT IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE AND UNINFORMED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO BE POSSIBLY TRUE AND HE SAID IT IN A TERRIBLE WAY.

THAT'S WHY I THINK THIS TRIBALISM OF HOW WE THINK AND PROCESS AND PRESENT INFORMATION IS REALLY DANGEROUS.

IF WE ALL JUST BECOME MIRROR IMAGES OF THE OPPOSITION, WE'RE IN DANGER AND OUR DEMOCRACY IS IN DANGER.

>> YOU ALSO TESTIFIED NEXT TO DR. REDFIELD, WHO RAN THE CDC UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

HOW HAVE YOU FOUND THIS KIND OF BIPARTISANSHIP?

>> IT'S A SITUATION IN MANY WAYS OF STRANGE BEDFELLOWS, BUT I THINK PEOPLE OF ALL POLITICAL PERSUASIONS WHO ARE DEDICATED TO FINDING THE RIGHT ANSWER ARE KIND OF ON THE SAME SIDE.

THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THERE IS A LOT OF POLITICS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS ISSUE.

BUT OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST THREE YEARS, I'VE COLLABORATED WITH PEOPLE ON THE LEFT, PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT, WITH DEMOCRATS, WITH REPUBLICANS.

ONE OF MY CLOSEST INTERLOCUTORS IS A UNITED STATES SENATOR ROGER MARSHALL FROM KANSAS.

SENATOR MARSHALL AND I DISAGREE ON A LOT OF TOPICS, BUT ON THE ISSUE OF SHOULD WE OR SHOULD WE NOT DIG TO FIND OUT HOW COVID-19 BEGAN, WE'RE SURPRISINGLY AND VERY MUCH ON THE SAME PAGE, NOT TO MENTION THAT WE'RE BOTH KANSAS CITY CHIEFS FANS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT A COMMISSION LIKE THIS IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET TO THAT CORE QUESTION ABOUT ORIGINS WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF CHINA?

>> I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.

I CERTAINLY KNOW THAT IF WE DON'T INVESTIGATE, WE'LL LIKELY NOT GET THE ANSWER.

IF WE DO FULLY INVESTIGATE, WE MAY GET THE ANSWER.

AND IN ADDITION, WE WILL ESTABLISH THE PRINCIPLE THAT IT'S JUST NOT OKAY TO HAVE IN MANY WAYS A POLITICAL PANDEMIC AND THEN JUST PREVENT AN INVESTIGATION.

THE REASON WHY I CALL THIS A POLITICAL PANDEMIC, BECAUSE FOR THOSE OF US WHO THINK A RESEARCH RELATED ORIGIN IS MORE LIKELY AND EVEN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT A MARKET ORIGIN IS MORE LIKELY, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE SUPPRESSION AND AGGRESSIVE SUPPRESSION OF INFORMATION PARTICULARLY IN THE EARLY DAYS BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS WHAT ALLOWED A STOVE FIRE TO BECOME A KITCHEN FIRE TO BECOME A RAGING GLOBAL INFERNO.

>> REGARDLESS OF WHERE THE INVESTIGATION GOES IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS SPECIFIC PANDEMIC, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT RESEARCHERS IN CHINA CONTRIBUTE TO THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY OF SCIENCE, WHETHER IT'S ABOUT VIROLOGY, ABOUT AGRICULTURE, ABOUT PHYSICS, ET CETERA.

AND YOU MENTION THAT WE STILL NEED TO HAVE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.

THE PRICE OF THAT CAN'T BE SILENCE.

EXPLAIN.

>> SO EXACTLY AS YOU SAID AND AS I SAID IN MY CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY, SCIENTIFIC COLLABORATIONS WITH AMAZING SCIENTISTS IN CHINA AND AROUND THE WORLD ARE ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.

SOMEBODY GETS WORLD CLASS TREATMENT FOR A TERRIBLE DISEASE LIKE CANCER OR SO MANY OTHER THINGS, WE ARE BENEFITTING FROM SCIENCE EVERYWHERE.

WE REALLY NEED TO CONTINUE TO TREASURE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS AND INVEST IN THEM AND BUILD THEM.

BUT LET'S JUST SAY HYPOTHETICALLY THAT COLLABORATION WITH AND SMALL SCALE FUNDING OF CHINESE SCIENTISTS MAY HAVE CONTRIBUTED IN SOME WAY TO THIS TERRIBLY DEADLY PANDEMIC.

WE CAN'T LET THE ANSWER BE, WE SHOULD JUST SHUT DOWN SCIENTIFIC COLLABORATION.

WE NEED SCIENTIFIC COLLABORATION.

WE JUST NEED STRONGER AND BETTER SAFEGUARDS TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT COLLABORATION AND SCIENCE ITSELF IS AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE.

>> IN JANUARY THERE WAS AN EXPERT PANEL WITH THE NATIONAL SCIENCE ADVISORY BOARD FOR BIOSECURITY.

THEY VOTED TO TRY TO CREATE STRICTER RULES FOR VIRUS RESEARCH.

I'M WONDERING WHETHER REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME OF THIS INVESTIGATION, IS THERE SOME WAY THAT THE PLANET OF SCIENTISTS AND PEOPLE WHO DO THIS TYPE OF RESEARCH CAN AGREE ON FIGURING OUT SAFETY MEASURES TO PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?

I MEAN, IN A WAY, THIS WAS A RELATIVELY TAME VIRUS COMPARED TO WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN RELEASED.

>> THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT OUR WORLD NEEDS STRONGER BIOSAFETY AND BIOSECURITY SYSTEMS, STRUCTURES AND NORMS.

THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT WE NEED STRONGER TREATIES AND WE NEED TO COME TOGETHER TO DO THOSE THINGS.

BUT THERE'S A REASON WHY WE FULLY INVESTIGATE PLANE CRASHES.

IT ACTUALLY MATTERS HOW A SPECIFIC PLANE CRASHED IN OUR PRIORITIZATION OF OUR RESPONSES.

FURTH FURTHERMORE, IF WE DON'T ESTABLISH THE PRINCIPLE OF TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY TODAY, THERE'S REALLY NO WAY WE'RE GOING TO ESTABLISH THAT PRINCIPLE FOR TOMORROW.

RIGHT NOW THE SITUATION WE'RE IN IS EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD IS TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON THE NORMS AND CULTURES AND REGULATORS IN SOME COUNTRY.

PICK KURDISTAN OR ANY COUNTRY.

THAT'S JUST CRAZY.

WE LIVE IN AN INTERCONNECTED GLOBAL WORLD, BUT WE NEED TO HAVE SYSTEMS AND STRUCTURES AND NORMS THAT PROTECT EVERYBODY EVERYWHERE.

>> SO WHAT DO WE DO NEXT?

HOW DO WE PREVENT THE NEXT ONE AND NOT JUST PREVENT THE PANDEMIC, BUT PREVENT THIS SAME TYPE OF THINKING FROM ALLOWING US TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHATEVER HAPPENS.

>> COVID-19 WAS A TERRIBLE CRISIS, BUT IT WAS ALSO A WARNING THAT SOMETHING WORSE COULD HAPPEN THAT COULD BE JUST AROUND THE CORNER.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO FAEARLESSY FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT WENT WRONG, NOT JUST THE ORIGINS QUESTION, WHAT WENT WRONG ACROSS THE BOARD.

THEN WE NEED TO WORK TO AGGRESSIVELY LAY A FOUNDATION FOR NEXT STEPS.

THAT'S WHY I'VE CALLED FOR A U.S. NATIONAL COVID-19 COMMISSION.

BUT THIS ISN'T AND CAN'T BE JUST A U.S. ISSUE.

THIS IS A GLOBAL ISSUE.

THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION IS AN INCREDIBLE ORGANIZATION, BUT IT HAS A TINY BUDGET, A VERY WEAK MANDATE AND OTHER KINDS OF PROBLEMS.

WE NEED A STRONGER W.H.O.

WE NEED AN INTERNATIONAL PLAN.

AS I SAID EARLIER, IT CANNOT BE THAT WE JUST SAY, OH, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO MOVE ON FROM COVID-19.

BECAUSE IT'S POLITICALLY SO SENSITIVE AND DIFFICULT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO ASK THE MOST BASIC QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THIS CRISIS HAPPENED.

THAT'S LIKE FLYING PLANES AFTER A CRASH WITHOUT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT WRONG AND WHETHER OTHER PLANES HAVE THAT SAME VULNERABILITY.

>> JAMIE METZL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> FINALLY, FROM BEHIND PRISON WALLS.

AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, IT IS FROM PRISON IN IRAN WHERE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN SPOKE TO US IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW.

IN HONOR OF INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY THIS WEEK, AN EXHIBIT NAMED FROM EVAN WITH LOVE HAS OPENED AT THE HAGUE SHOWCASING ARTWORK BY FEMALE POLITICAL PRISONERS HELD THERE.

IT INCLUDES SCARVES, EMBROIDERED TABLE CLOTHS AND EVEN DOLL OF YOUNG GIRLS WAVING THEIR HIJABS IN RESISTANCE.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF COURAGE FROM THE WOMEN OF IRAN.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.