>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE BALL IS IN RUSSIA'S COURT NOW AFTER UKRAINE AGREES TO A CEASEFIRE.

I DISCUSS WITH TRUMP'S FORMER SPECIAL ENVOY TO UKRAINE, KURT VOLCKER.

>>> THEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ATTEMPTS TO DEPORT PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST AND COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY STUDENT MAHMOUD KHALIL.

WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT FREE SPEECH AND FOREIGNERS LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES?

THE NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF THE UCLA CECILIA WONG JOINS THE SHOW.

>>> AMERICA IS LOSING A VERY IMPORTANT BRAND RECOGNITION FOR GEOPOLITICAL NEGOTIATIONS AND THAT IS ONE OF CONSISTENCY.

>> THE MARKET, TRUMP'S OWN BENCHMARK FOR SUCCESS, IN SWINGS AND SHOCKS.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS WITH CO- HOST OF THE PODCAST PIVOT SCOTT GALLOWAY ABOUT TRUMP TARIFFS SPOOKING THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

PBS STATION BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S GLOBAL TRADE WAR IS HEATING UP AND THE MARKET IS RESPONDING VERY NEGATIVELY.

TODAY THE EU AND CANADA RETALIATED BY LEVYING THEIR OWN TARIFFS AND INTO ON THIS STEPS IRELAND'S PRIME MINISTER.

IT WENT WELL, HIS MEETING WITH TRUMP, BUT EVEN BEFORE THIS LATEST ESCALATION MICHEL MARTIN'S TEAM TOLD REPORTERS THAT HE EXPECTED THE USUAL OVAL OFFICE TREATMENT FROM TRUMP, A COUPLE KICKS ON CAMERA OVER TRADE WERE INEVITABLE.

ONE EXPERT SAID FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF THE COLLEGE DUBLIN SAID HE HOPED TRUMP WOULD SAY WHAT HE NEEDS TO SAY ABOUT PALESTINE IN PRIVATE AND GET OUT OF THAT ROOM AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

MEANTIME RUSSIA HAS NOT YET SAID IF IT WILL ACCEPT A CEASEFIRE WITH UKRAINE.

TRUMP SAID HE'S WAITING TO HEAR FROM PUTIN, THIS AFTER PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY PUT THE BALL IN PUTIN'S COURT, SAYING THAT HE WILL ENTER A 30-DAY TEMPORARY TRUCE.

IN RETURN, AMERICA HAS IMMEDIATELY LIFTED THE SUSPENSION OF INTELLIGENCE SHARING WITH KYIV AND HAS UNBLOCKED THE WEAPONS PIPELINE.

THE KREMLIN SAYS IT'S WAITING FOR A BRIEFING FROM U.S. OFFICIALS ON THE TERMS OF THE CEASEFIRE.

IN PARIS TODAY EUROPEAN DEFENSE MINISTERS ARE MEETING TO DISCUSS THE FUTURE OF THEIR OWN EUROPEAN SECURITY.

KURT VOLKER WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SPECIAL ENVOY DURING HIS FIRST TERM AND WAS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO NATO FOR GEORGE W. BUSH.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

I DON'T KNOW, AMBASSADOR VOLKER, WHETHER YOU HEARD WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SAYING, BUT ON THE UKRAINE ISSUE, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE NEXT WE'RE LIKELY TO HEAR, KNOWING AS YOU DO PUTIN AND THE KREMLIN?

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO HEAR ABOUT FROM THEM, DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK PRESIDENT PUTIN IS SMART ENOUGH NOT JUST TO SAY NO.

IF, START LAYING OUT SOME OTHER DEMANDS THAT ARE OFF THE TRACK, NOT ABOUT STOPPING THE FIGHTING IMMEDIATELY, BUT OTHER THINGS THAT RUSSIA MIGHT WANT TO GET THE U.S. CHASING THOSE THINGS, PRESSURING UKRAINE TO DO THOSE THINGS NOW, TOO, IN ORDER TO TRY TO GET RUSSIA TO AGREE TO THE SAME CEASEFIRE THAT UKRAINE'S ALREADY AGREED TO.

I THINK THAT'S THE WAY PUTIN WILL TRY TO PLAY IT.

WHAT I HOPE IS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS JUST AS FIRM WITH RUSSIA AS THEY WERE WITH UKRAINE, SAYING WE HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO TALK ABOUT ALL THESE OTHER THINGS AFTER THERE'S A CEASEFIRE.

YOU NEED TO STOP THE FIGHTING NOW.

>> AGAIN, PRESIDENT TRUMP KEEPS SAYING WE NEED TO STOP THE FIGHTING NOW.

THE QUESTION IS, AS YOU SAY, ON WHAT TERMS?

SOME HIGHLY WELL PLACED EXPERTS.

YOU KNOW MIKHAIL KORDOKORSKY WHO HAS A THINK TANK.

SOME SAID THE RATIONAL THING IS TO KEEP TALKING AND DRAG THINGS OUT.

RUSSIA WILL USE THE NEGOTIATION PROCESS AS A PRESSURE TOOL.

PUTIN WILL TRY TO BUY DIPLOMATIC TIME TO SHIFT THE BATTLEFIELD CONDITIONS AND THEY SUGGEST ALSO AGREE TO THE CEASEFIRE BUT ONLY ON HIS OWN TERMS INSURING, FOR INSTANCE, UKRAINE HOLDS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, ET CETERA.

DOES THE TRUMP GROUP KNOW ENOUGH TO SAY NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO ACCEPT?

>> WELL, I THINK FIRST OFF, I WANT TO SAY THAT I AGREE WITH THAT REPORT, THAT ASSESSMENT.

THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY RUSSIA HANDLES THINGS, WHAT WE CAN EXPECT FROM THEM.

AS FAR AS THE TRUMP TEAM, IT'S REALLY PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF.

THERE IS ONE PERSON MAKING DECISIONS.

IT'S PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE'S TRYING TO PUSH THE SIDES TO GET TOGETHER SO HE CAN NEGOTIATE A DEAL.

I THINK HE HAS THE INSTINCTS TO SEE WHEN HE'S BEING JERKED AROUND, WHEN RUSSIA IS DIVERTING RATHER THAN ACTUALLY DOING WHAT HE'S ASKING THEM TO SO I THINK TRUMP'S INSTINCTS GO IN THAT DIRECTION.

AS FOR THE TEAM, I KNOW MARCO RUBIO.

I KNOW MIKE WALTZ.

THEY ARE VERY SMART PEOPLE.

THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME.

THEY KNOW HOW RUSSIA BEHAVES.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE ANY SURPRISE TO THEM, BUT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP BEING WILLING TO SAY TO VLADIMIR PUTIN WE'RE GOING TO GET TO ALL THE THINGS YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT.

WE CAN TALK FOREVER, BUT FIRST YOU HAVE TO STOP THE FIGHTING.

>> YOU WROTE ON THE 21st OF FEBRUARY IN THE KYIV INDEPENDENT ENGLISH LANGUAGE NEWSPAPER THERE AN OP ED AND BASICALLY SAID BASED ON SOME OF HIS FIRST STATEMENTS IN OFFICE, PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS TO UNDERSTAND RUSSIA IS IN A WEAK POSITION AND THAT CONTINUED ECONOMIC AND MILITARY PRESSURE CAN GET PUTIN TO END THE WAR.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU STILL THINK THAT AFTER WHAT HAPPENED I THINK ON THE 21st, THE DEBACLE IN THE OVAL OFFICE BETWEEN HIM AND PRESIDENT HAS BEEN MULLING IN PUBLIC THE IDEA OF POTENTIALLY OFFERING EARLY SANCTION LIFTS, EARLY ECONOMIC REKNITTING, TO REESTABLISH DIPLOMATIC TIES AND ALL OF IT AND WHETHER YOU THINK THERE'S A BIT OF CONFUSION IN THE MESSAGE.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S CONFUSION.

I THINK YOU SEE AN EFFORT BY TRUMP TO PUT ON SOME PRESSURE AND TO PUSH AND PULL AT THE SAME TIME.

DANGLE SOME ENTICEMENTS, SOME THINGS PUTIN MIGHT WANT, IN ORDER TO MANEUVER RUSSIA TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE TO GET AN END TO THE IMMEDIATE PHASE OF VIOLENCE.

WITH UKRAINE, THEY HAVE SET UP THAT OVAL OFFICE MEETING TO BE A SUCCESS.

THEY WANTED TO HAVE SOME PRESS ENGAGEMENT.

IT WAS VERY FRIENDLY AT THE BEGINNING.

THEY THEN WANTED TO SIGN THE MINERALS DEAL.

THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE LUNCH TOGETHER AND UNFORTUNATELY, IT ALL WENT OFF THE RAILS IN THE OVAL OFFICE IN THAT CONVERSATION.

THAT SET US BACK A COUPLE WEEKS.

WE ARE NOW BACK IN THE SITUATION WHERE THE U.S. AND UKRAINE ARE IN ALIGNMENT, AS WE SHOULD BE, AND THAT ALIGNMENT INVOLVES MILITARY SUPPORT, INTELLIGENCE SUPPORT, THE PROSPECT IN THE NEAR TERM OF REACHING AGREEMENT ON THAT MINERALS DEAL AND THEREFORE, TURNING THE SPOTLIGHT TO RUSSIA.

UKRAINE VERY CLEARLY IS POSITIONING ITSELF NOW SAYING THEY WANT PEACE.

THEY'RE READY FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE AND TURNING THAT TO RUSSIA.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SPOKEN ABOUT SANCTIONS.

HE'S SPOKEN ABOUT RUSSIA'S WEAKNESS AS AN ECONOMY.

I THINK HE'S AWARE OF THAT.

HE'S TRYING TO GET PUTIN TO ENGAGE, TRYING TO DANGLE SOME THINGS, BUT ALSO WILLING TO PUSH IF WE HAVE TO DO THAT, BUT GIVING PUTIN THE CHANCE TO ACCEPT THE CEASEFIRE FIRST.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU YOUR PERSONAL AND EDUCATED PROFESSIONAL OPINION SINCE YOU KNOW ALL THE CHARACTERS SO WELL.

TWO QUESTIONS.

WHY DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WENT INTO SUCH A HIGH STAKES MEETING NOT SPEAKING UKRAINIAN?

CONVERSATIONAL ENGLISH, BUT YOU COULD SEE THERE WAS MIXED UNDERSTANDINGS OF THE LANGUAGE AND WHY DO YOU THINK VICE PRESIDENT J.D.

VANCE DECIDED TO REALLY TURN IT INTO A VERBAL FISTICUFFS?

>> I WATCHED THAT TAPE A FEW TIMES.

ON THE QUESTION ABOUT LANGUAGE, I AGREE WITH YOU.

I THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER SERVED SPEAKING IN UKRAINIAN.

ALSO THAT GIVES EVERYBODY TIME TO BE CALM AND LISTEN AND REACT A LITTLE BIT MORE APPROPRIATELY RATHER THAN GETTING CAUGHT IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT, AS THEY DID.

THERE I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

CONCERNING WHAT HAPPENED THERE, THOUGH, WHEN YOU SEE THIS, IT WAS A VERY FRIENDLY MEETING AND PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS OKAY, ONE MORE QUESTION.

UP TO THAT POINT, VICE PRESIDENT VANCE HAD NOT BEEN ON CAMERA.

HE HAD NOT BEEN SPEAKING AND I THINK HE WANTED TO BE SEEN AS HAVING A ROLE IN THAT MEETING, SO HE SPOKE UP.

WHAT HE SAID TALKING ABOUT DIPLOMACY, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SHOULD HAVE LET IT GO AND THEY SHOULD HAVE MOVED ON TO THEIR PRIVATE MEETING.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, BUT INSTEAD PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY REACTED TO VICE PRESIDENT VANCE ASKING HIM WHAT KIND OF DIPLOMACY?

I'M TELLING YOU, J.D., WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

HOW CAN YOU NEGOTIATE WITH PUTIN?

HE'S A TERRORIST.

YOU CAN TRUST PUTIN AND THAT JUST DERAILED THE ARGUMENT.

MAYBE IF THAT WERE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY LISTENING, SPEAKING IN UKRAINIAN, IT STILL WOULD HAVE CREATED A CALMER DYNAMIC THAN THIS IMMEDIATE BACK AND FORTH.

>> I'M GOING TO PLAY A SOUNDBITE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP A WEEK OR SO AGO AFTER THE PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT SO THAT RUSSIA AND EVERYBODY COULD HEAR IT THAT THEY'RE SUSPENDING MILITARY, SUSPENDING INTELLIGENCE, MAY BE REMOVING THE SATELLITE TARGETING INFORMATION AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

TRUMP SEEMED TO --AND AS YOU KNOW THEN THERE WAS A HUGE ATTACK ON KYIV AND ACROSS UKRAINE BY THE RUSSIANS.

HERE'S WHAT TRUMP SAID AFTER THAT.

>> DO YOU, MR. PRESIDENT, THINK THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE U.S.

PAUSE RIGHT NOW ON INTELLIGENCE AND MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE?

>> I ACTUALLY THINK HE'S DOING WHAT ANYBODY ELSE WOULD DO.

I THINK HE WANTS TO GET IT STOPPED AND SETTLED AND I THINK HE'S HITTING THEM HARDER THAN HE'S BEEN HITTING THEM AND I THINK PROBABLY ANYBODY IN THAT POSITION WOULD BE DOING THAT RIGHT NOW.

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT.

THAT SORT OF FITS IN WITH WHAT ALL THESE OBSERVERS ARE SAYING AND THAT IS THE PRESIDENT HAS PIVOTED AWAY FROM UKRAINE.

HE HAS AN ANIMAS WITH ZELENSKYY --WE'LL GET BACK TO THAT -- AND HE IS TAKING THE KREMLIN TALKING POINTS.

AGAIN, HOW DOES THAT KIND OF COMMENT POSITION AMERICA AS AN HONEST BROKER IN THIS TERRIBLY DIFFICULT WAR?

THE POINT JUST FROM --I HATE TO SAY IT --FROM JUST FROM AN ANALYTICAL PERSPECTIVE, SAYING PUTIN'S ATTACKING UKRAINE.

IF WE SUSPENDED MILITARY SUPPORT FROM UKRAINE, OF COURSE, HE'S GOING TO ATTACK MORE.

I DON'T THINK HE WAS TAKING A POSITION.

ANOTHER THING TRUMP SAID IMMEDIATELY AFTER ZELENSKYY LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE THAT FRIDAY AFTER THAT DISASTER IN THE OVAL OFFICE, HE SAID HE WASN'T CONVINCED ZELENSKYY REALLY WANTED PEACE.

THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING STATEMENT BECAUSE ZELENSKYY, OF COURSE, DOES WANT PEACE.

ALL UKRAINIANS WANT PEACE.

THEY'RE BEING ATTACKED BY RUSSIA.

THEY DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS, BUT THEY DON'T TRUST RUSSIA.

THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN AFTER THE MEETINGS YESTERDAY IS A VERY CLEAR JOINT STATEMENT FROM THE U.S. AND UKRAINE THAT IS CLEARLY ON THE SIDE OF UKRAINE SAYING WE WANT THESE AND WE'RE PREPARED FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE IF RUSSIA DOES THE SAME THING.

THIS GETS UKRAINE OUT OF THAT POSITION WHERE AMERICA IS NOT SURE WHAT UKRAINE WANTS.

IT'S VERY CLEAR WHAT UKRAINE WANTS AND TURNING THAT SPOTLIGHT BACK TO PUTIN TO SAY DOES HE REALLY WANT PEACE?

I THINK WE KNOW THE ANSWER, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT VLADIMIR PUTIN BE THE ONE THAT TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR NOT ANSWERING THAT.

>> AGAIN, MOST OF THE GLOBAL OBSERVERS FELT THIS WAS GASLIGHTING UKRAINE.

ZELENSKYY AND HIS PEOPLE HAVE SAID THEY WANT PEACE FROM THE BEGINNING, JUST NOT A SURRENDER.

THAT BRINGS ME TO THE NEXT QUESTION.

GIVEN ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

I KNOW YOU SAID RUSSIA MAY DRAG IT OUT AND DO THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER, BUT LET'S SAY THEY DON'T GIVE AN ACCEPTABLE ANSWER ON THE CEASEFIRE OR LET'S SAY THEY DO.

HOW DOES ONE MAKE SURE THE CEASEFIRE ACTUALLY HAPPENS AND GOES INTO EFFECT AND AS IT WAS SAID ABOUT THE CEASEFIRE IN IRELAND IN THE EARLY '90s, THE GUN LARGELY FELL SILENT AND IT TOOK A LOT OF YEARS TO HAMMER OUT THE GOOD FRIDAY PEACE AGREEMENT.

SO WHAT'S NEXT, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, OKAY.

THERE'S SEVERAL THINGS HERE, LOTS OF PIECES.

>> THE MOST IS THE SECURITY GUARANTEE REALLY EVEN FOR THE CEASEFIRE.

WHO DO YOU MONITOR IT?

>> HERE'S WHAT I THINK HAPPENS.

I THINK YOU KEEP THE PRESSURE ON RUSSIA TO AGREE TO A CEASEFIRE.

YOU DON'T GO CHASING DOWN RABBIT HOLES WITH NEW ISSUES RUSSIA RAISES.

YOU TRY TO STAY FOCUSED AND PUSH THEM TO HAVE A CEASEFIRE.

THAT MEANS KEEPING ECONOMIC, ENERGY, FINANCIAL SANCTIONS, BANKING, SANCTIONS, ALL THAT KIND OF PRESSURE ON RUSSIA.

SECOND, YOU ENTER NEGOTIATION ABOUT A LONGER TERM PEACE AGREEMENT, BUT YOU HAVE VERY LOW EXPECTATIONS BECAUSE RUSSIA'S DEMANDS ON UKRAINE ARE MAXIMALIST.

THEY DON'T WANT UKRAINE TO EXIST AS AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE ACCEPTABLE TO ANYONE.

THEREFORE, THIRD, YOU HAVE TO PUT IN PLACE THE MECHANISMS TO DETER RUSSIA FROM BREAKING THAT CEASEFIRE, DETER THEM FROM RELAUNCHING, KNOWING THERE'S ENOUGH CAPABILITY AND WILL IN PLACE IT WILL ONLY HURT THEM.

THAT'S A HEAVY LIFT.

THAT'S WHAT KEIR STARMER AND EMMANUEL MACRON ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH A EUROPEAN DETERRENT FORCE AND SECURITY ASSURANCES FOR UKRAINE.

WE HAVE A STRONG GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO HAVE A CEASEFIRE, EXTEND THAT CEASEFIRE, MAKE IT AS PERMANENT AS POSSIBLE, HAVE A GOOD FAITH CEASEFIRE NEGOTIATION, BUT HAVE THE EXPECTATION YOU'LL BE DETERRING RUSSIAN ATTACKS AND LIVING WITH THE LONG TERM CONFLICT, ALTHOUGH IT MAY NOT BE A HOT MILITARY PHASE ANYMORE.

>> WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MINSK AND THERE WAS NO ENFORCEMENT OR MONITORING AND THE WHOLE THING COLLAPSED MOSTLY UNDER RUSSIAN YOU TALKED ABOUT THE EUROPEANS STEPPING UP.

I WANT TO READ YOU WHAT THE PRIME MINISTER OF POLAND SAID RECENTLY ABOUT REARMING, POTENTIAL EVEN RENUCLEARIZATION OF EUROPE.

DONALD TUSK SAID, "IT IS STRIKING, BUT IT'S TRUE.

RIGHT NOW 500 MILLION EUROPEANS ARE BEGGING 300 MILLION AMERICANS FOR PROTECTION FROM 140 MILLION RUSSIANS WHO HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO OVERCOME 50 MILLION UKRAINIANS FOR THREE YEARS."

I MEAN THAT IS A REAL LOGIC.

RUSSIA HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO WHAT IT WANTED TO DO AND ALL OF THIS, YOU KNOW, IS LEADING NOW EUROPE TO BE LEFT SORT OF OVERNIGHT TO TRY TO PICK UP THE U.S.

PIECES AND POTENTIALLY EVEN RENUCLEARIZE AND MAKE MORE NUCLEAR STATES AND DO ALL THAT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> FIRST OFF, IT'S A VERY CLEVER STATEMENT AND IT'S ACCURATE.

IT'S PROBABLY AROUND 35 MILLION UKRAINIANS NOW, BUT EVEN SO, IT'S BECAUSE OF THE U.S. MILITARY SUPPORT THAT WE'VE PROVIDED TO UKRAINE ALONG WITH OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES.

WE'VE HELPED MAKE SURE RUSSIA DOESN'T PREVAIL.

FOR WHAT TUSK IS TALKING ABOUT EUROPE, ON THE ONE HAND, HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

EUROPE NEEDS TO DO MORE ON DEFENSE.

IT NEEDS TO SPEND MORE.

IT NEEDS TO HAVE MORE EQUIPMENT AND PROVIDE MORE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE AND NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO ACT STRATEGICALLY, ALL THESE THINGS IT HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO.

HERE I WOULD POINT OUT I'VE BEEN IN EVERY U.S. ADMINISTRATION SINCE PRESIDENT REAGAN AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN PUSHING AND BEGGING OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES TO DO MORE AND NOW IT IS TRULY URGENT THAT WE HAVE RUSSIA ON THE PROWL ATTACKING ONE COUNTRY, THREATENING OTHERS.

WE REALLY NEED EUROPE TO STEP UP.

I WOULDN'T GO SO FAR AS THE NUCLEAR ISSUE YET, BUT I THINK GETTING EUROPE TO REALLY STEP UP IS CRITICAL.

>> THAT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE THEY'LL HAVE THE PROTECTION OF THE U.S. NUCLEAR UMBRELLA UNDER TRUMP'S PUBLIC STATEMENT.

IT'S INTERESTING YOU SAY GO BACK TO REAGAN BECAUSE REAGAN IS THE PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH GUY AND I PRESUME WHAT HE MEANS IS WHEN YOU WANT TO GET YOUR ENEMY TO MAKE PEACE, YOU HAVE TO STRENGTHEN YOURSELF OR YOUR ALLY WHO IS UNDER ATTACK BY YOUR ENEMY AND YET PRESIDENT TRUMP KEEPS SAYING THINGS THAT MAKE THE WORLD BELIEVE THAT HE LIKES OR TRUSTS PUTIN MORE THAN HE DOES ZELENSKYY AND THE UKRAINIANS.

HERE IS THIS THAT CAME FROM THAT OVAL OFFICE DEBACLE.

>> TELL YOU, PUTIN WENT THROUGH A HELL OF A LOT WITH ME.

HE WENT THROUGH A PHONEY WITCH HUNT WHERE THEY USED HIM AND RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA.

THAT WAS A PHONEY HUNTER BIDEN/JOE BIDEN SCAM, HILLARY IT WAS A DEMOCRAT SCAM AND HE HAD TO GO THROUGH THAT.

>> SO IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT OFTEN TRUTH IS SPOKEN IN ANGER.

HE CLEARLY FEELS HE HAS A BOND WITH PUTIN AND NOT WITH ZELENSKYY.

HOW TROUBLING MIGHT THAT BE IF HE IS THE "LEAD NEGOTIATOR" ON THIS BROKER FOR ANY KIND OF PEACE?

>> I THINK WHAT THAT SPEAKS TO IS DONALD TRUMP VIEWS EVERYTHING THROUGH THE PRISM OF HIMSELF.

HE WAS AFFECTED BY THIS RUSSIA HOAX.

SO HE WAS AFFECTED BY IMPEACHMENT AND LOOKS AT THAT AND SAID, "I HAD TO GO THROUGH THAT.

PUTIN HAD TO GO THROUGH THAT," BUT AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT PRISM HE IS FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSACTIONAL.

HE WANTS TO END THE WAR TO GET ON WITH OTHER THINGS, NOT BECAUSE HE CARES ABOUT THE END STATE.

HE JUST WANTS PEOPLE TO STOP DYING SO YOU CAN GET ON WITH OTHER THINGS.

IN THIS I THINK PUTIN IS PUTIN.

PUTIN WILL NOT COME UP WITH A REASONABLE APPROACH TO DEALING HE DOESN'T WANT TO LIVE NEXT- DOOR TO AN INDEPENDENT FREE UKRAINE.

HE DOESN'T WANT UKRAINE TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT ITSELF.

HE DOESN'T WANT EUROPE TO ENGAGE WITH UKRAINE OR UKRAINE TO JOIN THE EU.

WE'LL END UP IN A SITUATION WHERE DESPITE WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD LIKE TO DO, ENGAGING WITH PUTIN AND REACHING A DEAL, I JUST DON'T BELIEVE WE'LL EVER DO IT.

>> WOW.

WE GOT THERE IN THE END.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS BECAUSE YEAH, WILL IT EVER HAPPEN?

OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY WANTS TO SEE THIS TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE WAR END AND SO MUCH LOSS OF LIFE, BUT ON TERMS EVERYBODY WOULD CONSIDER ACCEPTABLE.

KURT VOLKER, WE WILL, OF COURSE, HAVE YOU BACK.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> ON THIS VERY, VERY DIVISIVE ISSUE EVEN HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, THE PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST AND RECENT COLUMBIA GRADUATE MAHMOUD KHALIL WILL REMAIN IN CUSTODY IN LOUISIANA DAYS AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED HERE IN NEW YORK, BUT A FEDERAL JUDGE ORDERED KHALIL MORE ACCESS TO HIS ATTORNEYS.

THE RULING COMES AFTER SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO ORDERED KHALIL'S GREEN CARD BE REVOKED.

CAN HE DO THAT AND WHY WOULD HE?

KHALIL HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING SINCE IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS ARRESTED HIM FROM HIS UNIVERSITY-OWNED HOME CITING HIS ROLE IN PRO PALESTINIAN PROTESTS LAST YEAR AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

IN NEW YORK THIS WEEK HUNDREDS OF PROTESTERS HAVE HELD DEMONSTRATIONS ARGUING HIS ARREST GOES AGAINST FREE SPEECH.

CECILIA WONG IS NATIONAL LEGAL DIRECTOR FOR THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION AND IS JOINING US FROM SAN FRANCISCO RIGHT NOW.

WELCOME.

THERE'S A LOT TO DIGEST HERE.

FROM YOUR UNDERSTANDING, WHAT IS THE RULING AND SIGNIFICANCE OF WHAT A JUDGE IN NEW YORK HAS SAID NOW ABOUT THIS CASE?

>> WELL, IN COURT TODAY THE JUDGE WAS DEALING WITH THE EMERGENCY MOTION FOR MR. KHALIL'S LEGAL TEAM TO HAVE MORE ACCESS TO HIM.

AS YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ILLEGALLY DETAINED AND ARRESTED MR. KHALIL, A LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND A COLUMBIA LAW UNIVERSITY STUDENT.

THEY WHISKED HIM AWAY FROM HIS PREGNANT WIFE, HIS FAMILY, AND HIS COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK CITY AND TRANSPORTED HIM TO AN I.C.E.

DETENTION CENTER IN LOUISIANA.

INITIALLY WITHOUT PERMITTING HIM CONTACT WITH HIS WIFE OR HIS ATTORNEYS.

NOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AS YOU SAID, ADMITTEDLY IS TRYING TO DEPORT MR. KHALIL BECAUSE OF HIS SPEECH AND PROTEST IN SUPPORT OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF PALESTINIANS.

THE GOVERNMENT ADMITS THAT HE HAS NOT BROKEN ANY LAWS AND INSTEAD ARE PROVOKING THIS OBSCURE IMMIGRATION LAW THAT THEY MAY DEPORT IF THE GOVERNMENT BELIEVES THEIR PRESENCE HAS A SERIOUSLY ADVERSE EFFECT ON FOREIGN POLICY FOR THE UNITED STATES.

>> OKAY.

>> NOW THIS IS COMPLETELY -- YES.

>> I WANT TO PLAY WHAT SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO SAID TO EXACTLY YOUR POINT JUST EARLIER TODAY.

HE SAID THIS IS NOT ABOUT FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT.

HE ALSO SAID, "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO REVOKE ANYTHING IF IT VIOLATES OUR FOREIGN POLICY STANDARDS, ET CETERA."

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> IF YOU TELL US WHEN YOU APPLY HI, I'M TRYING TO GET INTO THE UNITED STATES ON A STUDENT VISA.

I AM A BIG SUPPORTER OF HAMAS, A MURDEROUS BARBARIC GROUP THAT KIDNAPS CHILDREN, THAT RAPES TEENAGE GIRLS, THAT TAKES HOSTAGES AND ALLOWS THEM TO DIE IN CAPTIVITY AND RETURNS MORE BODIES THAN LIVE HOSTAGES, IF YOU TELL US YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF A GROUP LIKE THIS AND TELL US WHEN YOU APPLY FOR YOUR VISA, I AS A STUDENT AND RILE UP ALL KINDS OF ANTI-SEMITIC ACTIVITIES AND SHUT DOWN YOUR UNIVERSITIES, YOU TOLD US ALL THESE THINGS, WE WOULD DENY YOUR VISA.

I HOPE WE WOULD.

>> RIGHT.

SO HE'S LAID ALL THAT OUT.

OF COURSE, IF WE WERE TO TELL HIM THAT, CLEARLY WE WOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT WHAT HE'S SAYING IS IT SEEMS TO ME --I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU AS A LEGAL EXPERT VIEW THAT --HE'S ESSENTIALLY SUGGESTING THIS ALL APPLIES TO MAHMOUD KHALIL AND YET THERE HAVE BEEN NO CHARGES LEVELED AGAINST HIM TO TOUCH ANY OF THOSE ACCUSATIONS.

AM I CORRECT?

>> YOU ARE CORRECT, CHRISTIANE, AND HERE'S THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT SECRETARY RUBIO AND PRESIDENT TRUMP ARE SAYING.

THE FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTS EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT SINGLE SOMEONE OUT FOR ANY KIND OF PUNISHMENT, INCLUDING DEPORTATION, SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE POSITION THAT HE'S TAKEN IN PROTEST AND IN EXERCISING HIS RIGHTS UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

SECRETARY RUBIO SIMPLY IS WRONG TO TRY TO READ THAT IMMIGRATION LAW IN A WAY THAT IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE FUNDAMENTALS OF AMERICAN LIFE IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

>> AGAIN, HE'S STAYING THERE.

THE JUDGE TODAY RULED HE HAS TO STAY IN DETENTION IN LOUISIANA, BUT HIS LEGAL TEAM WHICH APPARENTLY HADN'T HAD ANY PHYSICAL CONTACT UNTIL NOW, WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE MORE CONTACT WITH HIM.

THE QUESTION IS HIS LAWYERS OBVIOUSLY DENIED THAT HE WAS SUPPORTING HAMAS.

HE IS A PALESTINIAN UNIVERSITY ACTIVIST.

HE WAS AT THESE PROTESTS, BUT THEY DENY THAT HE WAS SENDING OUT HAMAS PAMPHLETS OR SUPPORTING HAMAS.

AGAIN, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE AND WHAT IS THE BIGGER PICTURE?

ONE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO SMEAR MAHMOUD KHALIL WITH COMPLETELY A BASELESS CHARGE ABOUT WHAT IT IS HE SAID, BUT MORE FUNDAMENTALLY THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO DO IS REGARDLESS OF THE TRUTH OR FALSITY OF WHAT THEIR CHARGES ARE ON THE FACTS, THE FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTS MR. KHALIL'S RIGHT AND EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES, ALL OF OUR RIGHTS TO SAY WHAT WE BELIEVE, TO PROTEST WHATEVER WE LIKE TO PROTEST AND IT IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND TO TOWER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF AMERICAN LIFE AND AMERICAN DEPP ADDRESS FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS.

IN DETAINING AND TRYING TO DEPORT MAHMOUD KHALIL WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING IS NOT JUST ATTACKING HIM AND HIS FAMILY, THEY'RE NOT JUST ATTACKING A FUNDAMENTAL AMERICAN RIGHT.

I ADD, CHRISTIANE, THIS IS PART OF A LARGER PATTERN, A VERY DISTURBING PATTERN, OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S ACTIONS AGAINST PEOPLE HE CONSIDERS TO BE HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES OR DISFAVORED MINORITIES.

WHETHER TRUMP IS GOING AFTER TRANSGENDER YOUTH OR IMMIGRANTS OR PURSUING HIS POLICY OBJECTIVES, WHEN HE STARTS TO PUNISH PEOPLE AND CENSOR PEOPLE AND TRY TO CHILL AMERICANS' RIGHTS TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST HIM, HE'S ATTACKING ALL OF US AND OUR CONSTITUTIONAL VALUES.

THIS IS A VERY DISTURBING LARGE STEP TOWARD AN AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT.

I THINK WE WILL START TO SEE AMERICANS ACROSS THE IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM FROM LEFT TO RIGHT REGARDLESS OF PARTY, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND DONALD TRUMP ARE GOING WAY TOO FAR HERE.

>> CAN I JUST SAY BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN SO VICIOUS, THIS FIGHT BETWEEN DIFFERENT SIDES ON CAMPUSES OVER WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ISRAEL AND GAZA, AS YOU KNOW, THIS ISSUE OF MAHMOUD KHALIL IS ALREADY STILL POLARIZING JEWISH OPINION IN THE UNITED STATES.

SOME ORGANIZATIONS ARE PLEASED HE'S BEEN ARRESTED.

SOME APPARENTLY HAVE BEEN COOPERATING WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, COLLECTING INFORMATION ON KHALIL'S ACTIVITIES, CAMPAIGNING FOR HIS ARREST, WHILE OTHERS ARE SPEAKING OUT, OTHER JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS, ARE SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION'S USE OF ANTI-SEMITISM AS AN EXCUSE TO UP END THE CONSTITUTION AND TRUMP SAID ON TRUTH SOCIAL HE CALLS THE DETENTION OF KHALIL, "THE FIRST ARREST OF MANY TO COME."

HE CALLS OUT STUDENTS AT COLUMBIA AND OTHER UNIVERSITIES ENGAGING IN "PRO TERRORIST ANTI- SEMITIC AND ANTI-AMERICAN ACTIVITY.

DO YOU TAKE THAT POSITION AND THREAT SERIOUSLY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK ALL OF US IN THIS COUNTRY NEED TO TAKE SERIOUSLY TRUMP'S THREAT THAT THE ARREST OF MAHMOUD KHALIL IS ONLY THE FIRST OF MANY AND THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT ISRAEL AND GAZA.

THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT IMMIGRATION.

THIS IS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ATTACKING PEOPLE HE CONSIDERS TO BE ENEMIES, PEOPLE HE DISFAVORS.

WE'VE BROUGHT OTHER LAWSUITS CHALLENGING TRUMP'S ACTIONS TO CENSOR SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH ON GOVERNMENT-SPONSORED WEBSITES BECAUSE HE BELIEVES THAT CERTAIN ARTICLES PUBLISHED BY MEDICAL RESEARCHERS ARE CONTRARY TO HIS VIEWS ON HIS SO- CALLED GENDER IDEOLOGY.

ARE SO I THINK WHAT YOU'LL START TO SEE AS THESE ATTACKS REALLY INCREASE IN SCOPE IS THAT A BROADER AND BROADER SEGMENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC IS GOING TO SEE THAT TRUMP IS GOING TOO FAR.

WHATEVER YOU THINK ABOUT ISRAEL AND GAZA, WHATEVER YOU THINK ABOUT IMMIGRATION POLICY, WHATEVER YOU THINK ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF TRANSGENDER AMERICANS AND TRANSGENDER YOUTH, YOU ARE GOING TO START TO SEE THAT IF YOU ALLOW THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES THE POWER TO PUNISH PEOPLE, THE POWER TO CHILL ADVOCATES, THE POWER TO CHILL THE VOICES OF AMERICAN PEOPLE RAISED IN PROTEST ON WHATEVER ISSUE WITH WHATEVER VIEWPOINT, THEN WE'RE GOING TO START TO SEE A FUNDAMENTAL EROSION.

WE WON'T RECOGNIZE OUR COUNTRY ANY LONGER IF THIS CONTINUES WITHOUT A ROBUST RESPONSE FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND I DO THINK WE WILL START TO SEE THAT.

DEMOCRATS HAVE STARTED TO SPEAK OUT.

SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY HAS CALLED IT, WHAT HAPPENED TO KHALIL, BEING DISAPPEARED.

WE KNOW THOSE WORDS COME FROM LATIN AMERICAN IN THE DAYS OF THE U.S.-BACKED MILITARY JUNTAS WHICH TOOK OPPONENTS OFF THE STREET NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN, SOME OF THEM DUMPED IN THE OCEAN, ET CETERA, BECAUSE KHALIL WAS TAKEN TO LOUISIANA WITHOUT SO MUCH AS EVEN INFORMING HIS AMERICAN WIFE, WHO IS EIGHT MONTHS PREGNANT, OR HIS LAWYERS.

THIS IS WHAT SENATOR MURPHY SAID.

>> IN DICTATORSHIPS THEY CALL THIS PRACTICE BEING DISAPPEARED, NO CHARGES, NO CLAIMS OF CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR.

THE WHITE HOUSE DOESN'T CLAIM HE DID ANYTHING CRIMINAL.

HE'S IN JAIL BECAUSE OF HIS POLITICAL SPEECH.

>> WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT CHARACTERIZATION, THAT HE WAS DISAPPEARED AND THAT THIS IS A SPEECH ISSUE?

>> THIS IS ABSOLUTELY AN ISSUE OF FREE SPEECH.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT THE U.S. LAW TOOK MR. KHALIL FROM HIS HOME, RIPPED HIM APART FROM HIS EIGHT-MONTH PREGNANT WIFE AND PUT HIM IN I.C.E.

DETENTION IN LOUISIANA, BUT I WILL SAY THIS.

THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD IN LATIN AMERICA WHERE PEOPLE WERE DISAPPEARED NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN AND THAT IS THAT WE DO HAVE THE RULE OF LAW.

WE DO HAVE PETITIONS FOR WRITS OF HABEAS CORPUS.

WE WERE IN COURT THIS MORNING AND THE FEDERAL JUDGE ORDERED THE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE THE LEGAL TEAM ACCESS TO MR. KHALIL.

THIS IS THE BIG DIFFERENCE AND WE WILL, I AM CONFIDENT, PREVAIL IN THE COURT OF LAW AND ULTIMATELY IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.

THE U.S. PRESIDENT CANNOT DISAPPEAR PEOPLE FROM AMERICAN COMMUNITIES.

WE ARE GOING TO STOP HIM THROUGH THE COURTS AND THROUGH THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.

LEGALLY POSSIBLE --I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LAW SAYS.

SO I'M ASKING YOU HOW LONG IS IT LEGALLY POSSIBLE TO KEEP SOMEBODY IN DETENTION WITH NO CHARGES?

I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

THIS MAY NOT BE A SLAM DUNK ACCORDING TO SOME ANALYSTS, STEVE VLADIG WRITES ABOUT THIS CASE.

"ALTHOUGH WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE TO THIS POINT IS DISTURBING AND IS IN MY VIEW UNCONSTITUTIONAL RETALIATION FOR FIRST AMENDMENT-PROTECTED SPEECH, I'M NOT SURE IT IS IT AS CLEARLY UNLAWFUL AS A LOT OF FOLKS ONLINE SUGGESTED AND THAT'S A PRETTY BIG PROBLEM ALL BY ITSELF."

YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> WELL, I DISAGREE WITH THE PROFESSOR IN TWO RESPECTS.

FIRST, THE DUE PROCESS CLAUSE IN THE FIFTH AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION LIMITS THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO ARBITRARILY DETAIN SOMEONE.

LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT THE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES THAT BE TALKING ABOUT.

THERE ARE DETENTION IN I.C.E.

CUSTODY AND WET HE WHETHER I.C.E.

CAN SUSTAIN A DEPORTATION CHARGE ON MR. KHALIL.

THE GOVERNMENT IS DETAINING THEM WITH NO BASIS TO DO SO.

HE IS A LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENT.

HE LIVES IN NEW YORK CITY.

I'M CONFIDENT THROUGH THE FEDERAL COURT SYSTEM AND IMMIGRATION COURTS THERE IS NO BASIS FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DETAIN HIM REGARDLESS OF THE MERITS OF THE DEPORTATION CHARGE.

AS TO THE DEPORTATION CHARGE, AS I SAID, THE GOVERNMENT IS INVOKING THIS VERY OBSCURE SO- CALLED FOREIGN POLICY BAR AS A DEPORTATION GROUND.

THAT STATUTE RARELY USED CANNOT TRUMP THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

IF THE GOVERNMENT'S POSITION IS THAT MAHMOUD KHALIL AND PRESUMABLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER AMERICANS WHO HAVE SAID SIMILAR THINGS THAT MAHMOUD KHALIL SAID IN PROTESTS ARE DEPORTABLE BECAUSE OF THEIR SPEECH, THAT THEY CAN BE DEEMED BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE AS A THREAT TO THE U.S.' FOREIGN POLICY INTERESTS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY SAID IN SUPPORT OF HUMAN RIGHTS OR ANYTHING ELSE, FOR THAT MATTER, THEN WE'RE GOING TO BE IN DEEP TROUBLE, BUT I'M CONFIDENT THAT THE U.S. CONSTITUTION IS GOING TO PREVAIL AND THE RULE OF LAW IS GOING TO PREVAIL.

THE GOVERNMENT SIMPLY CANNOT DEPORT A LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENT BECAUSE OF WHAT HE SAID AND THEY DISAGREE WITH THEM.

>> I'LL GET BACK TO HOW LONG THEY CAN KEEP HIM BEFORE CHARGING HIM.

YOU JUST RAISED THE ISSUES OF THE FOREIGN LAW THING IS WHY SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO HAS IT.

THIS IS WHAT YESTERDAY THE WHITE HOUSE SPOKESWOMAN SAID ABOUT THIS CASE.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> UNDER THE IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT, THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS THE RIGHT TO REVOKE A GREEN CARD OR VISA FOR INDIVIDUALS WHO SERVE OR ARE ADVERSARIAL TO THE FOREIGN POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO ORGANIZED GROUP PROTESTS THAT NOT ONLY DISRUPTED COLLEGE CAMPUS CLASSES AND HARASSED JEWISH AMERICAN STUDENTS AND MADE THEM FEEL UNSAFE ON THEIR OWN COLLEGE CAMPUS, BUT ALSO DISTRIBUTED PRO HAMAS PROPAGANDA, FLYERS WITH THE LOGO OF HAMAS.

THAT IS WHAT THE BEHAVIOR AND ACTIVITY THAT THIS INDIVIDUAL ENGAGED IN.

>> HIS LAWYERS DENIED THAT.

VERY QUICKLY, 20 SECONDS, WHAT ARE THE LIMITS OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S AUTHORITY AND WILL THIS GO TO THE SUPREME COURT AND WILL THEY RULE AS YOU EXPECT THEM TO DO?

>> THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS LIMITED LIKE ALL OTHER GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND BY THE FIFTH AMENDMENT OF THE U.S. THAT WE WILL PREVAIL IN COURT BECAUSE YOU CANNOT PUNISH -- THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT PUNISH SOMEONE FOR THEIR SPEECH.

THAT IS JUST A BASIC FUNDAMENTAL OF AMERICAN LIFE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, CECILIA WONG.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW FROM THE TARIFF WARS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER TO TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH, IS THERE METHOD IN TRUMP'S MAGANOMICS.

OUR NEXT GUEST CALLS IT HIS WEAPON OF MASS DISTRACTION.

NYU PROFESSOR AND PODCAST HOST SCOTT GALLOWAY JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO BREAK DOWN WHAT CONSTANT HEAD SPINNING POLICIES MEAN FOR THE STATE OF AMERICAN FINANCES.

>> SCOTT GALLOWAY, THANKS FOR BEING BACK WITH US.

LAST TIME WE WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR BOOK "ADRIFT" AND YOU SAID AMERICA AS A COUNTRY ISN'T LOST BUT RATHER ADRIFT AND UNMOORED AND HAS YOUR ASSESSMENT CHANGE?

>> YOU COULD ARGUE IT'S FOUND DIRECTION.

UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK THE DIRECTION IS MORE AROUND CHANGE TOWARDS --A QUARTER OF EACH PARTY ARE IN FAVOR OF AN AUTOCRAT AS LONG AS THAT AUTOCRAT SHARES THEIR VIEWS AND I THINK THAT'S SORT OF COME TO FRUITION HERE.

I THINK THE SUPERSEDING OF OUR CHECKS AND BALANCES OF DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT SUCH THAT ONE POLITICAL PARTY THAT IS IN CONTROL CAN SORT OF BYPASS THE TRADITIONAL CONSTITUTIONAL MEASURES OR SAFEGUARDS REFLECTS THAT AMERICA HAS BECOME, YOU WILL, MORE OPEN OR ACCEPTING TO THE NOTION OF AN AUTOCRACY.

I THINK WE ARE PRETTY MUCH IN A FULL KIND OF CALL IT MAYBE MOST MUCH OF AMERICA VOTED FOR THIS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE STOCK MARKET IS A REFLECTION OF PEOPLE'S DISSATISFACTION WITH THIS DIRECTION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

I THINK THE S&P HAD ONE OF ITS WORST WEEKS EVER.

ALL THE GAINS SINCE THE ELECTION HAVE PRACTICALLY BEEN WIPED OUT.

>> I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S DISSATISFACTION BECAUSE THAT IMPLIES THEY'RE UPSET ABOUT IT.

THE MARKET IS PRETTY UNEMOTIONAL AND IS FOCUSED ON INCREASING EARNINGS AND PEOPLE WILL BUY STOCKS REGARDLESS.

SENTIMENT SORT OF TAKES A BACK SEAT TO FINANCIAL CONSIDERATIONS.

I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE MARKET IS FIRST OFF, YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE EVEN WITH THESE DRAWDOWNS THE MARKET IS SUBSTANTIALLY UP FROM WHERE IT WAS JUST SIX MONTHS AGO.

IT HAS COME BACK FROM PREELECTION THE TRUMP BUMP HAS BEEN WIPED OUT.

I THINK YOU'RE SEEING A COUPLE THINGS.

THE MARKET MAY HAVE GOTTEN TRIGGERED THE SELLOFF IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE IRRATIONAL NONECONOMIC DECISIONS AROUND TARIFFS WHERE WE'RE BASICALLY RIPPING UP THESE 80-YEAR LONG ALLIANCES WITH TRUSTED ECONOMIC PARTNERS THAT ENGAGE IN MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL TRADE AND THAT THESE ARE NOT ONLY A BAD IDEA IN THE SPECIFIC AGREEMENTS OF TRADE WE'RE RIPPING UP, BUT AMERICA IS LOSING A VERY IMPORTANT BRAND ASSOCIATION FOR ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIPS OR GEOPOLITICAL NEGOTIATIONS AND THAT IS ONE OF CONSISTENCY.

>> THERE WAS AN ESTIMATE BY THE YALE BUDGET LAB THESE TARIFFS WILL COST THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD SOMEWHERE BETWEEN $1,600 TO $2,000 AND ESTIMATED TO REDUCE OUR GDP BY AS MUCH AS $110 BILLION A YEAR.

ONE OF THE LINES OF THINKING I HEAR FROM THE ADMINISTRATION IS IF THESE SHORT TERM HITS CAN GET US BETTER LEVERAGE TO TRY TO NEGOTIATE LONGER TERM PROSPERITY FOR AMERICA, THIS WILL HAVE BEEN WORTH IT.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

>> WELL, TO BE FAIR, TARIFFS AREN'T ALL BAD.

SOMETIMES YOU NEED TARIFFS AS A HAMMER TO RESTORE SYMMETRY TO AN ASYMMETRIC TRADE RELATIONSHIP.

BIDEN MAINTAINED THE INITIAL TRUMP TARIFFS.

I THINK SOME OF TRUMP'S INITIAL INSTINCTS AROUND THE ASYMMETRY OF THE TRADING RELATIONSHIP ARE ACCURATE.

I WAS A GRADUATE INSTRUCTOR OF MACROECONOMIC IN GRADUATE SCHOOL AND WE USED TO TALK ABOUT TARIFFS I IMAGINE THE SAME WAY PROFESSORS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL TALK ABOUT LEECHES LIKE CAN YOU BELIEVE THEY WERE STUPID ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THIS WOULD WORK?

THE NOTION WE'RE PUTTING OURSELVES IN A POSITION TO NEGOTIATE SOME BIG BEAUTIFUL DEAL, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO WORK BECAUSE TRUMP TORE UP THE IRAN DEAL AND NOW APPEARS TO WANT IT AGAIN.

THE TARIFFS ARE OFF AND ON.

I DON'T THINK WE'RE SEEN NOW AS A RELIABLE PARTNER THAT CAN BE COUNTED ON WITH THE LIVELIHOOD OF YOUR COUNTRY.

THINK ABOUT CANADA.

WE'RE NOT EVEN ABLE TO GIVE CANADA A GOOD REASON WHY HE'S DOING THIS.

KIND OF THE STATED REASON FROM THE ADMINISTRATION FOR WHAT ARE TARIFFS THAT WILL HURT OUR ECONOMY AND DRAMATICALLY HURT THE CANADIAN ECONOMY IS THE UNCHECKED TRANSFER OF FENTANYL ACROSS THE CANADIAN BORDER.

YOU COULD TAKE THE AMOUNT OF FENTANYL THAT HAS COME ACROSS THE U.S./CANADIAN BORDER AND PUT IT IN A BACKPACK, ESTIMATES THAT IT'S LESS THAN 1%.

TO ALIENATE YOUR CLOSEST ALLY.

CANADA IS THE LARGEST UNDEFENDED BORDER IN THE WORLD.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP TO THIS POINT?

THEY JOINED US IN WORLD WAR 1.

THEY WERE IN WORLD WAR II BEFORE US TRAINING ALLIED PILOTS, SIDE BY SIDE WITH US IN KOSOVO, IN OUR FIGHTS AGAINST THE TALIBAN, AMAZING ECONOMIC PROSPERITY.

WE HAVE NBA AND NHL TEAMS IN AMERICA AND CANADA RESPECTIVELY.

I LOVE THAT QUESTION, HARI, THAT WAS PRESENTED BY THE EVALUATING WHO ARE YOUR REAL FRIENDS?

IT COMES DOWN TO ONE QUESTION FOR HER.

WOULD THEY HIDE ME?

THAT'S A REALLY PUNCTURING KIND OF RATTLING QUESTION TO EVALUATE YOUR FRIENDS BY, BUT BY THAT STANDARD, CANADA IS ONE OF OUR BEST FRIENDS.

IN THE IRAN HOSTAGE CRISIS, THEY HID AMERICAN DIPLOMATS AND UNDER GREAT PERSONAL RISK INSURED THEIR SAFE ESCAPE FROM IRAN AND THEY STAYED BEHIND AND HAD THEY BEEN CAUGHT, THERE WAS A GOOD CHANCE THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN HANGED FROM CRANES.

CANADA HAS HID US.

THEY ARE REAL FRIENDS AND FOR US TO RECKLESSLY, IRRATIONALLY, AND INEXPLICABLY TRY TO HURT THEM IN EXCHANGE FOR WHAT MIGHT BE SOME BIG BEAUTIFUL DEAL, THE DAMAGE HERE TO UNWIND AND REPAIR WILL TAKE THE BETTER PART OF THE 80 YEARS IT TOOK TO MAKE THESE AMAZING, PROSPEROUS RELATIONSHIPS THAT, QUITE FRANKLY, THE ADMINISTRATION IN MY VIEW IS IRRATIONALLY TAKING THEM FOR GRANTED.

>> HOW DOES THE WORLD DEAL WITH THIS KIND OF UNCERTAINTY.

>> THE ATLANTA FED HAS A METRIC THEY'RE TRYING TO PREDICT WHAT GDP GROWTH MIGHT LOOK LIKE IN THE COMING YEAR.

IN THE LAST 45 DAYS IT'S GONE FROM 4% TO NEGATIVE 2.8.

THE ECONOMY IS CONTRACTING FASTER THAN IT HAS SINCE THE COVID LOCKDOWNS.

OBVIOUSLY THE MARKETS ARE CHILLED.

I THINK THE SILVER LINING HERE --I ALWAYS LIKE TO ASK MYSELF WHAT COULD GO WRITE BECAUSE OVER THE MEDIUM AND LONG TERM, THE MAJORITY OF THE METRICS IN THE WORLD DO GET BETTER.

IT'S EASY FOR ME TO TRY AND SOUND SMARTER THAN THEY ARE BY ALWAYS BEING NEGATIVE.

I THINK THE SILVER LINING IS EUROPE IS BECOMING A UNION BECAUSE THEY REALIZE THEY CAN NO LONGER COUNT ON THE MILITARY UMBRELLA.

QUITE FRANKLY, THEY HAVE GOTTEN I WOULD CALL LAZY AND EXPECTANT AROUND THE MILITARY UMBRELLA PROVIDED BY THE U.S.

THEY NOW ARE CONVINCED THEY CAN NO LONGER COUNT ON THE U.S. TO BE PRO DEMOCRACY AND MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS AND HONOR THIS POST WORLD WAR II ORDER.

THEY REALIZE THEY CAN NO LONGER COUNT ON OR EXPECT THE MILITARY UMBRELLA OF THE U.S.

THEY WILL DRAMATICALLY INCREASE THEIR SPENDING ON MILITARY WHICH I THINK WILL HAVE STIMULATING AND SPILLOVER EFFECTS.

I THINK THE SILVER LINING HERE IS EUROPE WILL BEGIN TO COMMAND THEIR SPACE.

THE TOTAL GDP IS 19 MILLION.

THE GDP OF RUSSIA IS 2 TRILLION.

THERE'S NO REASON WHY EUROPE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PUSH BACK AND BE A CREDIBLE OPPOSING THREAT TO AN ECONOMY THAT IS AGAIN SMALLER THAN THE SIZE OF CANADA, RUSSIA.

CRITICAL OF ELON MUSK IN THE PAST SEVERAL MONTHS AND REALLY COUPLE YEARS.

IN LIGHT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, I THINK THERE IS CONSENSUS THAT PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE ARE INTERESTED IN MAKING GOVERNMENT FUNCTION BETTER, MAKING IT MORE RESPONSIVE AND EFFICIENT.

WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN OVER THE PAST COUPLE MONTHS THAT GIVE YOU PAUSE ON WHETHER THIS IS GOING TO HAVE LONGER TERM EFFECTS AND PERHAPS UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES?

>> WELL, EVERY ADMINISTRATION CLINTON/GORE HAS HAD SOME SORT OF TASK FORCE TO TRY AND ROOT OUT INEFFICIENCY, FRAUD, AND WASTE.

SO FAR IF DOGE IS AN AUDIT OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ISSUED A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH BECAUSE ITS RECEIPTS ARE SURPRISINGLY SCANT.

THE FIRST ONE SAID THEY WERE SAVING $8 BILLION.

IT ENDED UP BEING 8 MILLION OF SPENDING THAT HAD BEEN SPENT AND NUMBERS TWO, THREE, AND FOUR ON THE LIST OF DOGE RECEIPTS THAT HAVE SINCE BEEN TAKEN DOWN WERE BLATANTLY FALSE.

THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTS SO FAR DOGE HAS FOUND 2.6 BILLION IN COST SAVINGS.

YOU CAN SIX X THE SAVINGS FROM DOGE TO DATE BY CUTTING OFF ALL SUBSIDIES TO TESLA WHICH COST TAXPAYERS $15 BILLION.

WE ALL LIKE THE IDEA OF CUTTING WASTE, BUT I BELIEVE IT'S A MISDIRECT.

THAT IS WHY WE ALL HAVE OUR HAIR ON FIRE LOOKING OVER HERE AT DOGE, 2.6 BILLION, THE EMOTIONAL UPSET OF FIRING GOOD PEOPLE DOING GOOD WORK OR GENERAL INCOMPETENCE OF FIRING NUCLEAR CONTROLLERS AND FIRING OFF PEOPLE WITH OUR NUCLEAR STOCKPILE AND FIRING THEM BACK, I BELIEVE IT'S A MASSIVE DISTRACTION AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PLANS TO INCREASE OUR DEFICIT BY $800 THE WEALTHY.

ALL THIS IS A MISDIRECT.

IT'S SAD.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

IT'S INCOMPETENT.

THESE STAVINGS ARE ILLUSORY, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY I THINK IT'S A PURPOSEFUL DISTRACTION FROM THE TAX CUTS THEY ARE TRYING TO PUT FORWARD AT THE EXPENSE OF FUTURE GENERATIONS.

>> DO YOU THINK ELON IS GETTING A NET POSITIVE BENEFIT FROM THIS?

ON THE ONE HAND, HE'S GAINED INCREDIBLE PROXIMITY TO POWER AND, IN FACT, POWER FOR HIS $250 MILLION CONTRIBUTION TO THE CAMPAIGN.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE VALUE FROM TESLA SHARES HAVE BEEN EVAPORATING BECAUSE HE SEEMS TO HAVE ALIENATED A HUGE CHUNK OF THE PEOPLE THAT USED TO BUY HIS CARS?

>> I THINK THE POLITICAL CALCULUS WAS MISCALCULATED ON HIS PART.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT NIKE OFF MIC.

WHEN NIKE EMBRACED COLIN KAEPERNICK, WHICH WAS A POLITICAL POSITION, THEY HAD DONE THE MATH.

TWO-THIRDS OF THEIR REVENUE COMES FROM PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE U.S.

UNDER AGE 30.

THEY PURPOSEFULLY TICKLED THE SENSORS AMONG A CUSTOMER BASE THEY KNEW WOULD APPRECIATE THAT.

MUSK HAS MADE EXACTLY THE WRONG CALCULATION.

THAT IS THREE-QUARTERS OF REPUBLICANS WOULD NEVER CONSIDER BUYING AN EV ANYWAY.

HIS LARGEST MARKET IS CALIFORNIA AND SALES ARE DOWN 11%.

IN EUROPE SALES ARE OFF 75%.

TESLA HAS SHED A THIRD OF ITS VALUE IN THE LAST MONTH, GIVEN BACK ALL ITS GAINED SINCE THE TRUMP ELECTION.

WHAT IS REALLY GOING TO HURT HIS POCKETBOOK IS THAT IT HAS NOW JUMPED THE LAB AND IS STARTING TO INFECT SPACEX, SPECIFICALLY STARLINK, WHO IS SEEING CONTRACTS CANCELED BY PEOPLE RANGING FROM CANADA TO POLAND AS SAYING WE CAN'T COUNT ON YOU FOR SOMETHING AS IMPORTANT AS COMMUNICATIONS AND BATTLEFIELD COMMUNICATIONS SO THEY'RE RECONSIDERING THEIR STARLINK CONTRACT.

I WOULD ARGUE THE POLITICAL CALCULUS HERE FROM MR. MUSK WAS WILDLY INACCURATE AND HE IS SEEING A LOT OF HIS WEALTH EVAPORATE BECAUSE THE NEGATIVE ASSOCIATIONS OF MUSK ARE STARTING TO INFECT NOT ONLY THE TESLA BRAND, BUT ALSO THE SPACEX BRAND.

SO I THINK IT WAS AN IRRATIONAL DECISION FROM A PURELY COMPLEX STANDPOINT.

>> HERE WE WERE AT THE INAUGURATION AND WE SAW LINED UP TO THE PRESIDENT LITERALLY THE WHO'S WHO OF TECHNOLOGY AND BILLIONAIRES STANDING NEXT TO HIM.

IS THIS JUST BUSINESS AS USUAL OR IS THIS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE CARNEGIES OR ROCKEFELLERS MIGHT HAVE DONE 100 YEARS AGO?

IS IT THE OPTICS THAT ARE DIFFERENT NOW OR IS THERE SOMETHING MORE STRUCTURALLY MORE DESTRUCTIVE?

>> IT'S A FAIR QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT WOULD MAYBE FAIRLY SAY LOOK, WE MAY BE MORE IT, BUT IT'S NOTHING LOBBYISTS AND LAWYERS AND MEDIA HAVEN'T DONE IT FOR THE LEFT.

WHEN THE MOST POWERFUL AND WEALTHY TECH EXECUTIVES IN THE WORLD ARE WILLING TO BE INTIMIDATED DONATING TO AN INAUGURAL CAMPAIGN, WHEN THEY'RE WILLING TO BE PARADED AROUND FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, YOU HAVE A DOMINO OF COWARDICE.

THEY TEXT MY PIVOT CO-HOST THEY HATE THEMSELVES IN THE INAUGURATION AND THEN THEY SHOW UP.

THAT GIVES THE CEO OF X CONFIDENCE TO DEMAND THAT AN AD AGENCY ADVERTISE ON THEIR PLATFORM OR RISK HAVING THEIR MERGER BLOCKED BY HER BUDDY WHO HAS PROXIMITY TO THE PRESIDENT.

WHAT WE DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE IN AMERICA IS THAT RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY ARE NOW A FUNCTION OF HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE, FULL STOP.

THE WEALTHY TECHNOCRATS AND 0.1% FEEL AS IF --AND QUITE FRANKLY, IT MAY BE TRUE --THAT THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THE LAW BUT NOT BOUND BY IT, WHEREAS, THE REST OF THE 99% ARE BOUND BY THE LAW BUT NOT PROTECTED.

>> GETTING BACK TO THOSE CEOs, I WONDER IF THEY WILL OR ALWAYS HAD A SHIELD SAYING I'M JUST DOING WHAT'S RIGHT FOR MY SHAREHOLDERS, MY FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY.

SO I GIVE $1 MILLION TO THE CAMPAIGN OR INAUGURATION.

IT COULD HELP OUR STOCK DOWN THE LINE OR IF I DON'T GIVE THE MILLION DOLLARS, IT COULD HURT MY STOCK DOWN THE LINE AND AS CEO, THAT'S WHO I'M SUPPOSED TO BE LOYAL TO.

>> I THINK THAT'S A FAIR ARGUMENT, HARI, BUT WHAT I WOULD ASK IS THEY DON'T EVER USE THE TERM STAKEHOLDERS AGAIN.

REMEMBER ALL THIS BS THE LAST TEN YEARS THEY START TALKING ABOUT STAKEHOLDERS?

ALL RIGHT.

THE COUNTRY, DEMOCRACY, POOR PEOPLE, PEOPLE NOT POLITICALLY HAVE STOCK OPTIONS IN APPLE, THE 99% THAT ONLY OWN 10% OF STOCKS, ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO ALSO BE REPRESENTING THEM?

ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO HAVE SOME FIDELITY TO THE VALUES OF THE RULE OF LAW, CHECKS AND BALANCES THAT HELPED GET YOU SO RICH IN THE FIRST PLACE?

LET ME LIST ALL THE CEOs WHO FILLED THIS LEADERSHIP VOID SAID I AM MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE LONG TERM HEALTH OF AMERICA AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE PREVIOUS AND PUBLIC COMPANIES.

I'M NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN IN KLEPTOCRACY.

I'M NOT GOING TO BE AN AGENT.

HERE ARE SOME OF THE CEOs WHO FILLED THIS LEADERSHIP VOID.

OKAY, LIST OVER.

AT SOME POINT MANY OF THESE PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AND CLAIM TO BE GREAT AMERICANS AND CONSTANTLY VOICE GRATITUDE FOR WHAT IS THE BEST EXPERIMENT AND BEST PLATFORM IN THE WORLD FOR ESTABLISHING ECONOMIC SECURITY AND RIGHTS, AT SOME POINT YOU'D LIKE TO THINK THEY'RE GOING TO SHOW SOME FIDELITY TO THE DEMOCRACY AND PRINCIPALS AND RULE OF LAW AND CHECKS AND BALANCES THAT PLAYED A HUGE ROLE IN THEIR WEALTH, BUT THEY DEFAULT TO THIS COLD COMFORT OF WELL, I'M A FIDUCIARY FOR SHAREHOLDERS.

LET'S BE HONEST.

JUST KISS HIS ASS, GIVE HIM A MILLION BUCKS AND STAY OUT OF THE CROSSHAIRS.

THEY SAY I'M REPRESENTING THE BOTTOM 99%, REPRESENTING DEMOCRACY AND WHAT AMERICA IS SUPPOSED TO STAND FOR AND PAYING IT FORWARD BASED ON THE RULE OF LAW, DEMOCRACY, FAIR COMPETITION THAT GOT ME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I'M THINKING WHAT THEY HEAR IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS NOT ONLY SHOCKING, IT'S VERY DISAPPOINTING.

>> AUTHOR AND PROFESSOR AND PODCAST HOST, SCOTT GALLOWAY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THAT FOCUSES THE MIND THERE.

>>> FINALLY, FROM THE FIERY FRONT LINES TO SERENE SKI SLOPES, A GROUP OF UKRAINIAN VETS WHO LOST THEIR LEGS IN BATTLE HAVE MADE THEIR WAY TO SNOW-COVERED MOUNTAINS IN OREGON ON AMERICA'S WEST COAST.

IT'S ALL PART OF A SKIING PROGRAM FOR AMPUTEES SET UP BY A NONPROFIT THAT AIMS TO MAKE SPORT MORE ACCESSIBLE FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE PROGRAM EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/ AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.