March 16, 2023

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> AMERICA'S RELATIVE POWER IS NOT WHAT IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO.

>> NAVIGATING A NEW WORLD ORDER.

MY CONVERSATION WITH STEPHEN HADLEY, THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH.

WE DISCUSS THE CURRENT THREATS FACING THE UNITED STATES AND THEIR ROOTS 20 YEARS AFTER THE IRAQ WAR.

THEN -- >> THAT WORK REMAINS MY LIFE AND IT'S MY SALVATION.

>> FROM "AMADEUS" TO THE WHITE LOTUS THE OSCAR-WINNING ACTOR F. MURRAY ABRAHAM TELLS ME ABOUT HIS INCREDIBLE CAREER AND WHY HE'S COMING BACK TO MOZART FOR "THE MAGIC FLUTE."

ALSO AHEAD THREE YEARS AFTER THE CORONAVIRUS PUT THE WORLD TYPE LOCKDOWN LONG COVID CONTINUES TO IMPACT PEOPLE.

HARI SRINIVASAN TALKS SOLUTIONS WITH STEPHANI SUTHERLAND AND LONG COVID PATIENT TARA GHORMLEY.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

A LIGHTNING RUSSIAN INVASION INTO A NEIGHBORING STATE SENDS SHOCKWAVES AROUND THE WORLD.

PRESIDENT PUTIN BLAMES THE WEST AND IN PARTICULAR THE UNITED STATES FOR TRIGGERING THIS ATTACK.

AND THE WHITE HOUSE SCRAMBLES TO MAKE THE RIGHT RESPONSE.

NOW, WHAT IF I WERE TO TELL YOU TODAY BUT ABOUT GEORGIA IN 2008?

WHEN THEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS STUNNED BY A RUSSIAN ATTACK ON ONE OF ITS NEIGHBORS.

THE SAME IMPERIALIST FORCES THAT EMERGED THEN DOMINATE PRESIDENT BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY PRIORITIES NOW.

SO WAS IT A LEARNING MOMENT AND HAS THE W. BUSH HE ERA SHAPED CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY?

I'VE BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT THIS WITH BUSH'S FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, STEPHEN HADLEY.

WHOSE NEW BOOK "HAND-OFF" DIGS INTO THE TOP SECRET FOREIGN POLICY MEMOS THAT BUSH HANDED TO HIS SUCCESSOR, PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, AND HOW THEY CONTINUE TO SHAPE U.S. POLICY TO THIS DAY.

>> STEPHEN HADLEY, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> NICE TO BE HERE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO YOU'VE JUST COME OUT WITH YOUR BOOK.

REALLY -- PEOPLE HAVE SAID IT'S A REALLY CREDIBLE AND DEEP RECKONING OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THOSE YEARS OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

IT'S CALLED "HAND-OFF" ABOUT THE PASSING OF THE REINS FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION TO THE OTHER, BUSH TO OBAMA.

SO WHAT ARE THE CHANGES NOW THAT YOU FIND SURPRISING OR NOT GIVEN HOW YOU HANDED OFF BACK IN 2007, 2008?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S INTERESTING IS HOW DIFFERENT THE WORLD WAS AT THE END OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE ADMINISTRATION, AND THOSE TRENDS HAVE CONTINUED TO THE PRESENT.

YOU KNOW, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ADMINISTRATION, THE END OF THE COLD WAR, AMERICA WAS THE PREEMINENT POWER.

OUR MODEL OF POLITICAL DEMOCRACY AND MARKET ECONOMICS SEEMED TO BE THE ONLY MODEL THAT PEOPLE WERE INTERESTED IN FOLLOWING.

AND THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM BASED ON OUR VALUES AND PRINCIPLES WAS UNCHALLENGED.

A GREAT POWER COMPETITION SEEMED TO BE A THING OF THE PAST.

ALL OF THAT HAS CHANGED.

THE WORLD WE FACE NOW OF COURSE IS AUTHORITARIAN STATE CAPITALISM IS OFFERED BY CHINA AND RUSSIA AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO OUR MODEL.

THEY'RE CHALLENGING THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM.

GREAT POWER COMPETITION IS BACK.

AND AMERICA'S RELATIVE POWER IS NOT WHAT IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO.

SO THE WORLD HAS REALLY CHANGED.

WE SAW THOSE TRENDS BEGIN UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

WE WERE THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION TO TRY TO RESPOND TO THEM.

THEY'VE ONLY STRENGTHENED AND DEEPENED UP TO THE PRESENT.

>> ARE YOU SURPRISED BY HOW ACTUALLY IN YOUR FACE CHALLENGING CHINA AND RUSSIA ARE RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU READ THE BOOK THE RUSSIA AND CHINA WE FACE BEAR LITTLE RELATION TO THE RUSSIA AND CHINA WE FACE NOW.

CHINA THEN UNDER JIANG ZEM-INNING AND HU JINTAO WANTED A BENIGN INTERNATIONAL ENVIRONMENT SO THEY COULD FOCUS ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, WANTED TO COOPERATE WITH THE UNITED STATES, AND WE DID A LOT OF COOPERATION WITH THEM.

XI JINPING WHEN HE CAME TO POWER IN 2012 HAS A DIFFERENT AGENDA.

HE ABANDONED WHAT HAD BEEN SORT OF HIDE YOUR POWER, BIDE YOUR TIME, WHICH WAS THE MANTRA OF CHINESE FOREIGN POLICY.

MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE FOREIGN POLICY.

MUCH MORE REPRESSIVE REGIME AT HOME.

AND REALLY BECOMING A PARTY MAN, STRENGTHENING THE COMMUNIST PARTY AND ASSERTING ITS -- INSERTING ITS TENTACLES REALLY THROUGHOUT RUSSIAN SOCIETY AND THE ECONOMY.

>> THE UNITED STATES TODAY WITH ITS ALLIES UK AND AUSTRALIA, AUKUS, HAVE JUST HAD THIS MEETING IN SAN DIEGO DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY TO COUNTER IN PART CHINA'S ASSERTIVENESS IN THAT REGION.

IS THIS GOING TO WORK?

>> I THINK IT CAN WORK.

I THINK THE UNITED STATES ALONE DOES NOT HAVE REALLY THE HEFT TO DEAL WITH AN EMERGING CHINA.

BUT IF YOU TAKE THE UNITED STATES PLUS OUR ALLIES IN THE INDO-PACIFIC, PLUS OUR ALLIES IN EUROPE IN TERMS ECONOMICALLY, DIPLOMATIC, POLITICALLY, I THINK WE HAVE THE HEFT TO IN SOME SENSE DETER CHINA AND MAYBE MODERATE SOME OF ITS AGGRESSIVENESS.

THAT'S WHAT I HOPE.

YOU KNOW, OUR POLICY UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WAS TO TRY TO INTEGRATE CHINA INTO THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM BUT TO HEDGE BY STRENGTHENING OUR ALLIANCES IN SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, BRINGING INDIA INTO A STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES.

THOSE INVESTMENTS WERE VERY IMPORTANT THEY'RE WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS BUILDING ON NOW TO TRY TO MANAGE THE CHALLENGE OF CHINA.

>> AND YET, STEPHEN HADLEY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS ALSO HUGH QUITE CLOSE TO THE TRUMP LINE.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'D AGREE BUT MOST ANALYSTS BELIEVE PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION TOOK A MUCH MORE CONFRONTATIONAL APPROACH, WHETHER ON TRADE OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE WITH CHINA, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS PRETTY MUCH CONTINUED THAT LINE.

AND NOW THERE'S FEARS OF AN ACTUAL MILITARY, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING, HEAD TO HEAD, CONFRONTATION IF XI JINPING DECIDES TAIWAN IS WHAT HE'S GOING TO GET COME WHAT MAY.

>> THIS IS A CHALLENGE.

YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, ONE OF THE LITTLE SECRETS ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY IS THERE'S A LOT MORE CONTINUITY BETWEEN ADMINISTRATIONS THAN MANY TIMES WE RECOGNIZE, GIVEN ALL THE RHETORIC.

I THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION GETS A LOT OF CREDIT FOR WAKING UP THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO THE CHINA CHALLENGE.

I THINK THAT IT HELPED TO BUILD A BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS BEHIND THE NOTION THAT WE NEED TO BE MORE AGGRESSIVE IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH THE CHINA CHALLENGE.

AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION NOW HAS CONTINUED THAT LINE AND HAS ACTUALLY DEVELOPED A POLICY THAT HAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FOR HOW TO DEAL WITH CHINA.

THE TRICK OF COURSE, IT'S A MORE COMPETITIVE RELATIONSHIP AND WE NEED TO MANAGE THAT COMPETITION IN A WAY THAT IT DOES NOT RESULT IN CONFRONTATION AND MILITARY CONFLICT.

BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE A LOSS FOR EVERYBODY.

AND PARTICULARLY OVER TAIWAN IT WOULD BE A LOSS FOR TAIWAN, FOR CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES.

SO I THINK WE'VE HAD A FRAMEWORK, WE'VE HAD THIS TAIWAN ISSUE SINCE REALLY THE OPENING TO CHINA UNDER PRESIDENT NIXON.

WE'VE HAD THIS ISSUE.

WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO MANAGE IT BETWEEN THE TWO OF US.

I THINK WE HAVE A FRAMEWORK FOR DOING SO.

AND THE TWO COUNTRIES NEED TO CONTINUE TO ENGAGE ON THAT ISSUE.

>> SO LET'S GO BACK A LITTLE BIT IN ORDER TO CONTINUE GOING FORWARD.

NEXT WEEK WILL BE THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF THE U.S.

INVASION OF IRAQ ALONG WITH CERTAIN OTHER ALLIES.

NOW, IN YOUR BOOK, IN YOUR DEEP RECKONING, YOUR COLLEAGUE MEGAN O'SULLIVAN DESCRIBES THAT INVASION AS, QUOTE, A FATEFUL DECISION THAT HAUNTED THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION FOR ITS ENTIRE TENURE.

ARE YOU READY TO ADMIT, DO YOU ADMIT, CAN YOU EXPAND ON WHETHER THAT WAS NOW IN RETROSPECT AN ACTUALLY SANE AND SOUND POLICY?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A WONDERFUL QUESTION.

IT COMES UP A LOT.

I THINK ONE OF THE ANSWERS IS HAD WE KNOWN AT THE TIME THAT IRAQ HAD ACTUALLY GOTTEN RID OF ALL OF ITS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND DISCONTINUED ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAM I DON'T THINK THE PRESIDENT COULD HAVE GONE TO WAR EVEN IF HE'D WANTED TO.

I DON'T THINK HE WOULD HAVE HAD THE SUPPORT FROM THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES TO GO TO WAR IN WHICH CASE THE WAR WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

THE WAR DID HAPPEN.

LOOKING BACK, WAS IT A GOOD THING?

WAS IT A BAD THING?

IT'S VERY HARD TO SAY.

THIS WAS A REGIME THAT WAS -- WE THOUGHT HAD PURSUED -- HAD PURSUED WMD IN THE PAST, AND MANY PEOPLE SAY THAT IF SADDAM HAD GOTTEN OUT OF SANCTIONS AND OUT FROM UNDER SANCTIONS HE WOULD HAVE DONE IT AGAIN.

HE SUPPORTED TERROR.

HE INVADED HIS NEIGHBORS, TERRORIZED HIS PEOPLE.

WE DON'T REALLY KNOW THE COUNTERFACTUAL.

IF WE HAD STOOD DOWN AND BASICALLY IGNORED 17 U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS AND GIVEN SADDAM HUSSEIN A GET OUT OF FREE -- JAIL FREE CARD, WHAT HIS BEHAVIOR WOULD HAVE BEEN.

WOULD HE HE HAVE RESUMED NUCLEAR PROGRAM?

IF SO WOULD WE HAVE HAD A NUCLEAR ARMS RACE BETWEEN IRAQ AND IRAN IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

NOT EXACTLY A PRESCRIPTION FOR STABILITY.

SO IT'S REALLY HARD TO KNOW THE COUNTERFACTUAL OF WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED -- >> WELL, HERE'S A COUNTERFACTUAL.

HERE'S ONE I CAN GIVE YOU.

AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO INTO THE WMD THING AGAIN BECAUSE IT'S BEEN ROUNDLY DISCREDITED, AS YOU KNOW.

AND ALSO WHAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION CLAIMED, WHICH WAS THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD SOME KIND OF LINK AND EMPOWERMENT WITH AL QAEDA.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

BUT HERE'S WHAT I KNOW.

ON THE EVE OF THE INVASION I INTERVIEWED THE FRENCH PRESIDENT JACQUES CHIRAC, WHO WAS ROUNDLY DISMISSED BY YOUR ADMINISTRATION AND THE BRITS AND EVERYBODY ELSE, WHO SAID TO ME, WE DO NOT NEED TO GO TO WAR NOW, IF THEY GIVE ME -- AND I BELIEVE HE SAID IT'S EITHER 30 OR 60 MORE DAYS, HE'S TALKING ABOUT YOU ALL, FOR MORE INSPECTIONS, FOR MORE INVESTIGATION AND IF SADDAM HUSSEIN IS STILL OBSTRUCTING, THEN I WILL HELP WITH THE U.N.

RESOLUTION, WHICH YOU NEVER GOT.

DO YOU THINK IN RETROSPECT, GIVEN HOW RUSSIA NOW AND PUTIN IS USING THIS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, THAT CHIRAC WAS RIGHT, THE FRENCH WERE RIGHT?

>> YOU KNOW, I SEE THE HISTORY A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.

HE WE BUILD UP TROOPS IN ORDER TO GIVE SOME WEIGHT BEHIND THAT COERCIVE DIPLOMACY.

I THINK PRESIDENT BUSH BELIEVES IT ACTUALLY WOULD HAVE WORKED.

BUT IN FEBRUARY OF 2003, ONE MONTH BEFORE WE WENT INTO IRAQ, PRESIDENT CHIRAC, PRESIDENT PUTIN AND CHANCELLOR SCHRODER WENT PUBLIC AND SAID UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD THEY SUPPORT THE USE OF FORCE AGAINST IRAQ.

AND ONCE THAT STATEMENT WAS MADE SADDAM HUSSEIN THOUGHT HE HAD A GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD.

HE THOUGHT PRESIDENT BUSH WOULD NOT GO TO WAR WITHOUT AN 18th RESOLUTION AND THAT THE FRENCH AND THE RUSSIANS WOULD VETO THAT RESOLUTION.

SO AT THAT POINT THE PRESIDENT WAS FACED WITH THIS FATEFUL CHOICE OF EITHER TO USE THE TROOPS THAT HE HAD BUILT UP IN THE REGION OR BASICALLY TO SAY TO SADDAM HUSSEIN 12 YEARS OF DIPLOMACY, ECONOMIC SANCTIONS, MILITARY ACTION, FORGET IT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE HOME FREE.

AND THE PRESIDENT DECIDED THAT THAT LATTER CHOICE WAS JUST UNACCEPTABLE FOR THE CREDIBILITY OF THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE CREDIBILITY OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> AGAIN, AS YOU KNOW, THE DRACONIAN, ALL-ENCOMPASSING SANCTIONS BY THE UNITED STATES, THE U.N., THE WORLD, HAD PRETTY MUCH CRIPPLED ANY ABILITY OF SADDAM HUSSEIN IN THAT DIRECTION.

BUT LET'S MOVE ON BECAUSE WHAT I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN IS THE LESSONS OF HISTORY GIVEN WHAT YOU'RE REFLECTING ON AND THE HANDOVERS.

SO VLADIMIR PUTIN POINTS TO IRAQ.

HE POINTS TO LIBYA.

HE POINTS TO ALL OF THIS.

WHEN WE'RE SAYING OR THE WEST IS SAYING YOU'VE GOT TO RESPECT THE RULES OF THE ROAD, THE INTERNATIONAL LAW, SOVEREIGNTY, TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF UKRAINE.

HE'S SAYING, SERIOUSLY?

YOU DID THAT IN IRAQ?

SO WITH HOW DOES ONE DEAL WITH PUTIN NOW GIVEN THAT KIND OF -- AND BY THE WAY -- >> SURE.

>> -- EVEN WORSE, STEPHEN HADLEY, THE REST OF THE WORLD, THE GLOBAL SOUTH BELIEVE HIS NARRATIVE.

>> THE GLOBAL SOUTH DOES BELIEVE THE NARRATIVE.

AND RUSSIA AND CHINA HAVE DONE A LOT BETTER JOB THAN WE HAVE IN REACHING OUT TO THE GLOBAL SOUTH ON THIS ISSUE.

BUT REMEMBER, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DO IS YOU REALLY POINT TO THE DIFFERENCES.

WE WENT INTO IRAQ BECAUSE IT WAS JUDGED THAT IRAQ WAS A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT TO US, OUR FRIEND, OUR ALLIES OF THE REGION AND THE LIKE.

PUTIN WENT INTO UKRAINE NOT BECAUSE UKRAINE THREATENED RUSSIA.

QUITE THE CONTRARY.

OUR WAR WAS TO REMOVE A DICTATOR WHO THREATENED THE REGION AND THEN HELP BUILD A DEMOCRATIC IRAQI SOCIETY IN THE HANDS OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

PUTIN'S AGENDA IS TO LIQUIDATE THE UKRAINIANS AS A SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT STATE AND INCORPORATE IT WITHIN RUSSIA AS PART OF AN EFFORT TO RE-ESTABLISH A RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

THESE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU AND OTHERS INSIST ON THOSE DISTINCTIONS.

>> AS WE WATCH THE TERRIBLE TORTURE AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ACCORDING TO THE UNITED STATES AND WAR CRIMES THAT PUTIN'S FORCES ARE CARRYING OUT IN UKRAINE, YOU KNOW, I KNOW THE UNITED STATES OPPOSES THAT BUT WE SAW THE TERRIBLE TORTURE INFLICTED ON IRAQIS, ABU GHRAIB, OTHER SUCH STUFF, DURING YOUR ADMINISTRATION AND DURING THE OCCUPATION BY AMERICAN FORCES OF IRAQ.

AMERICA LIKES TO STAND ON ITS HIGH HORSE AND THEN THESE THINGS HAPPEN AND THEY SAY SEE?

YOU DID IT.

WHY SHOULDN'T WE?

YOU'RE JUST HYPOCRITES.

>> THERE WERE TERRIBLE MISTAKES MADE.

AND I THINK ABU GHRAIB WAS A STAIN ON OUR ADMINISTRATION, AND IT WAS INEXCUSABLE.

AND IT REALLY COST US ENORMOUSLY IN TERMS OF CREDIBILITY WITHIN THE ARAB AND THE MUSLIM WORLD.

THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

AND I THINK WE DO WHAT WE DO AS AMERICANS WHEN WE MAKE A MISTAKE.

WE INVESTIGATE, WE TRY TO CHANGE THE RULES AND PROCEDURES SO IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN, AND WE TRY TO HOLD PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT.

IT WOULD BE GOOD IF RUSSIA WAS TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING.

>> SO YOU'VE BEEN IN THE ROOM WHERE IT'S HAPPENED FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

AND I WONDER WHAT GIVES YOU NIGHTMARES NOW WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD.

IS IT IRAN, THAT THE U.S. HAS PULLED OUT OF THE JCPOA, THE NUCLEAR DEAL?

IS IT THE FACT THAT CHINA OUT OF THE BLUE HAS ENGINEERED A RAPPROCHEMENT BETWEEN IRAN AND SAUDI ARABIA?

WHAT WORRIES YOU I GUESS THE MOST RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK WE CAN HANDLE THESE CHALLENGES.

MY MAIN WORRY IS IN SOME SENSE HERE AT HOME.

THE DIVISION WITHIN OUR POLITICS.

THE PROBLEMS WITHIN OUR ECONOMY NOT ABLE TO HAVE SUSTAINED AND INCLUSIVE ECONOMIC GROWTH.

HAVING A LOT OF SOCIAL ISSUES ABOUT ENTITLEMENT REFORM, IMMIGRATION, WHERE WE'VE REALLY KNOWN THE SOLUTIONS FOR OVER A DECADE BUT OUR POLITICS SOMEHOW CAN'T PULL TOGETHER TO DEAL AND COME TO BIPARTISAN AND SUSTAINABLE SOLUTIONS.

OUR FAILURE TO INVEST IN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE HERE AT HOME.

IF WE FIX OUR PLATFORM HERE AT HOME, OUR ECONOMY, OUR POLITICS, GET AMERICAN PEOPLE TO HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE IN THEIR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS AGAIN, IF WE FIX OUR CHALLENGES AT HOME WE CAN DEAL WITH THESE CHALLENGES WITH OUR FRIENDS AND ALLIES OVERSEAS.

>> STEPHEN HADLEY, ONE YEAR PLUS IN, THERE IS A NEW SET OF ARTICLES ABOUT THE DESPERATION NOT OF RUSSIA, AS WE'VE HEARD, BUT OF UKRAINE RIGHT NOW ON THE EAST.

THEY'RE SAYING THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH WEAPONS, NOT ENOUGH OF ANYTHING TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND DONETSK AND LOSING ALL THEIR GOOD PEOPLE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WILL AMERICA STAND FIRM IN BACKING UKRAINE AS THEY SAY TO VICTORY?

>> I'M LESS WORRIED ABOUT THE WILLINGNESS OF THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE TO STAND BEHIND UKRAINE AND THE ABILITY TO UKRAINE TO WITHSTAND THE ENORMOUS ONSLAUGHT THAT IT IS SUFFERING RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW THEY'RE FIGHTING AGAINST RUSSIA WHICH IS A COUNTRY WITH THREE TIMES ITS POPULATION AND TEN TIMES ITS GDP.

SO I WORRY MORE ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE UKRAINIANS TO WITHSTAND THE ONSLAUGHT, WHICH IS WHY I THINK WE'RE LATE IN GETTING THEM THE AMMUNITION AND THE WEAPONRY THEY NEED BOTH TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AND TO MOUNT A SUCCESSFUL COUNTEROFFENSIVE THIS YEAR, WHICH THEY NEED TO DO TO PUT SOME OF RUSSIA'S GAINS AT THIS POINT AT RISK AND TO GIVE PUTIN AN INCENTIVE TO FIND A WAY TO WIND THIS WAR DOWN.

>> STEPHEN HADLEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.

>> AND NEXT TO CULTURE WITH OSCARS 2023 BEHIND US WE TAKE A LOOK BACK WITH MY NEXT GUEST, THE AWARD WINNING ACTOR F. MURRAY ABRAHAM.

A BREAKOUT STAR OF THE 1980s WHO WON THE ACADEMY AWARD FOR BEST ACTOR FOR HIS ROLE AS THE DIABOLICAL COMPOSER SALIERI IN THE HIT "AMADEUS?"

NOW IN HIS 80s HE'S BREAKING OUT ALL OVER AGAIN IN THE SATIRE "WHITE LOTUS" WHICH HAS BECOME A CULT FAVORITE.

BUT HE'S ALSO RETURNING TO MOZART FOR HIS NEW FILM "THE MAGIC FLUTE," WHICH FOLLOWS A BOY TRANSPORTED INTO THE WORLD OF THE LEGENDARY OPERA.

HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

♪♪ >> WHERE DID YOU GO LAST NIGHT?

>> DO YOU BELIEVE ME?

>> DO I BELIEVE THAT A CLOCK IN THIS SCHOOL IS A PORTAL INTO MOZART'S MASTERPIECE?

NO.

>> WE MET UP RECENTLY IN NEW YORK TO TALK ABOUT FILM, FUN AND GRIEF.

>> F. MURRAY ABRAHAM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HI.

>> SO MOZART AGAIN, "THE MAGIC FLUTE."

WHAT KEEPS DRAWING YOU BACK?

OR WAS IT MORE THE FILM?

>> THE MUSIC.

>> IT IS THE MUSIC.

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN I WORKED ON THE MOVIE A LONG TIME AGO I HAD TO LISTEN TO SO MUCH OF HIS STUFF OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND IT NEVER GOT OLD.

♪♪ THAT'S WHEN I REALIZED THIS IS GENIUS.

SO WHENEVER IT'S PRESENTED AGAIN OF COURSE I'LL TAKE PART.

>> SO OF COURSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT "AMADEUS" AND WE'RE GOING TO GET TO IT BECAUSE THAT WAS BASICALLY NOT JUST YOUR BREAKOUT ROLE BUT YOUR CEMENTING ROLE.

YOU GOT YOUR OSCAR FOR THAT AND IT WAS AN AMAZING THING THAT PEOPLE TO THIS DAY REMEMBER.

SO WHAT I'M INTERESTED ABOUT "THE MAGIC FLUTE," IT'S OBVIOUSLY FOR KIDS.

IT'S FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.

>> YEAH.

>> I THOUGHT OF IT AS SORT OF A "HARRY POTTER" FOR CLASSICAL MUSIC NERDS.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S THE BEST PART OF DOING IT, ISN'T IT?

IT'S AN INTRODUCTION TO A WHOLE NEW FRESH GENERATION OF THIS GREAT MUSIC.

AND IT IS MAGICAL.

WE TALK ABOUT MAGIC FLUTE.

BUT IT IS MAGIC.

>> I'M GOING TO PLAY A CLIP ABOUT WHEN YOU ARE THE TEACHER, THE PROFESSOR, AND THE YOUNG PRODIGY IS COMING AND YOU'RE BASICALLY RUNNING HIM THROUGH HIS PACES.

HERE IT IS.

>> I HAVE OCCASION TO HEAR YOUR FATHER SING SEVERAL TIMES, RIGHT HERE IN THESE HALLOWED HALLS WHERE WE BOTH GOT OUR START.

HE WAS A FEW YEARS BEHIND ME, BUT I REMEMBER HIS POWERFUL YET NUANCED FIGARO.

YOUR FATHER WAS QUITE THE SINGER.

BUT IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE GREATNESS ONE MUST HAVE DISCIPLINE.

AND ONE MUST HAVE RULES.

>> DISCIPLINE AND RULES.

IT SOUNDS OBVIOUS.

WAS IT SOMETHING YOU ALSO HAVE HAD IN YOUR LIFE, IN YOUR PROFESSION?

IS IT ALL ABOUT DISCIPLINE AND RULES?

>> I'VE DISCOVERED THAT AS AN ACTOR IT'S ONE OF THE DRIVING FORCES FOR ME.

IT'S WHAT -- IT SUSTAINS ME.

BECAUSE THERE ARE LONG PERIODS OF TIME IN AN ACTOR'S LIFE WHEN HE JUST DOESN'T WORK.

AND THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP AN IMAGE, A CLEAR IMAGE OF WHO YOU ARE IS TO HAVE CONFIDENCE IN YOURSELF.

AND THAT TAKES DISCIPLINE.

YOU HAVE TO WORK OUT EVERY DAY.

I MEAN, I DO.

>> I FIND THAT REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU DO TALK ABOUT IT A LOT.

AND THIS OBVIOUSLY MEANS A LOT TO YOU.

YOU'RE 83 YEARS OLD.

YOU WORK AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT.

YOU'RE KNOWN FOR VERY, VERY STANDOUT ROLES.

I'M GOING TO PLAY A CLIP FROM "AMADEUS."

>> THIS WAS A MUSIC I'D NEVER HEARD.

FILLED WITH SUCH LONGING, SUCH UNFULFILLABLE LONGING.

IT SEEMED TO ME THAT I WAS HEARING THE VOICE OF GOD.

EXCUSE ME.

BUT WHY?

WHY WOULD GOD CHOOSE AN OBSCENE CHILD TO BE HIS INSTRUMENT?

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT AND LISTEN TO IT, WHAT DO YOU IMMEDIATELY THINK?

>> I LOVE THE OLD MAN.

I ALWAYS LOVE TO SEE HIM.

HE HAD A GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR.

THE YOUNGER MAN DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A SENSE OF HUMOR.

BUT I THINK I'M DELIGHTED WITH HOW IT HOLDS UP.

I'M PROUD OF IT.

BUT FOR A LONG TIME I COULDN'T WATCH IT.

I HAD DONE IT.

THE PROBLEM WITH ME WATCHING MY WORK IS THE ONLY THING I SEE ARE THE MISTAKES.

AND THAT'S THE TRUTH.

>> HOW LONG DID IT TAKE EVERY DAY TO GET YOU TO LOOK LIKE THAT, THE OLD MAN?

>> EVERY DAY IT WAS 4 1/2 HOURS IN THE MORNING.

WE HAD TO START WORK ABOUT 3:00 AND START PRINCIPAL PHOTOGRAPHY 4 1/2 HOURS LATER.

BUT WHEN WE WERE FIRST PUTTING ON THE MAKEUP, CREATING IT, THAT WAS 14 HOURS.

AND IT WAS OBVIOUSLY WORTH IT.

>> WELL, YEAH.

I MEAN, SALIERI WAS SCARY.

IN THIS CLIP YOU CAN SEE HIS JEALOUSY.

AND YOU COULDN'T BELIEVE IT.

BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE MORE TALENTED.

I'M TALKING ABOUT SALIERI.

>> YEAH.

IN FACT, HE'S RIGHT.

GOD DID SHAFT HIM.

AND HE WAS GOING TO GET EVEN WITH GOD.

THAT'S WHAT I LIKE ALSO ABOUT SALIERI.

IT WASN'T THAT HE WAS AGAINST MOZART.

HE WAS BRINGING HIMSELF UP AGAINST GOD.

WHAT A CONCEPT.

I MEAN, THAT'S A BIG MAN.

YOU SEE, I'M VERY DEFENSIVE ABOUT SALIERI.

HE DID A GOOD THING BY ME.

>> I CAN SEE THAT.

BUT INTERESTINGLY, DO YOU ALSO FIND THAT IT IS A VERY COMMON HUMAN EMOTION TO BE ENVIOUS, JEALOUS, YOU KNOW, THINK THAT YOU GOT SHAFTED AS YOU SAID.

>> YOU KNOW IT IS.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT MOVIE WORKS.

EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS VERY CLEARLY, VERY PERSONALLY.

BUT I LEARNED SOMETHING FROM THE MOVIE.

>> WHICH WAS?

>> I LEARNED THAT I REALLY AM ENVIOUS AND JEALOUS.

IT'S A HELL OF A THING TO ADMIT ABOUT ONESELF.

YOU'D LIKE TO THINK YOU RISE ABOVE IT.

BUT I'M 83 YEARS OLD AND THERE ARE STILL CERTAIN THINGS I ENVY.

>> CAN YOU NAME ONE?

>> OH, CERTAIN ROLES THAT CERTAIN ACTORS GET, AS GOOD AS THEY ARE AND I ADMIRE THEM, I THINK WELL, WHY DIDN'T THEY GIVE IT TO ME?

BUT I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT WAY.

>> SO YOU GOT THE OSCAR.

THE FILM WON THE BEST FILM THAT YEAR.

AND THAT WAS JUST AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT.

HOW DID IT CHANGE YOUR LIFE?

>> WELL, I WENT FROM NO MONEY AT ALL TO ABOUT $100,000 A DAY.

THAT'S ONE THING IT DID.

BUT ALSO IT JUST MADE LIFE SO MUCH EASIER.

AND IT HAD BEEN PRETTY HARD UP TILL THEN.

AND I BECAME -- I WAS INVITED TO BE SOPHIA LOREN'S LOVER.

THAT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT THE ACADEMY AAWARD.

AND WORKING WITH SOME OF THE GREATEST ACTORS IN THE WORLD.

THAT WAS THE OSCAR.

THE POWER OF THE OSCAR.

>> WHAT I HADN'T REALIZED AND WHAT I THINK IS LITERALLY EXTRAORDINARY, BUT I GUESS YOU GUYS CAN COMPARTMENTALIZE THAT YOU WERE SHOOTING "AMADEUS" IN EUROPE AND "SCARFACE" IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YEAH.

>> HOW ON EARTH -- I MEAN, LITERALLY YOU WERE GOING BACK AND FORTH CROSS-CONTINENTAL, TRANS-ATLANTIC.

HOW DID YOU MANAGE TO DO THAT?

>> WELL, I HAD TAKEN -- ACCEPTED "SCARFACE" AND WHILE I WAS WORKING ON IT THAT'S WHEN I GOT SALIERI.

SO THEY ARRANGED THE SCHEDULE WHERE I COULD FLY BACK AND FORTH.

BUT IT WAS MUCH EASIER THAN YOU THINK.

FOR ONE THING THE CHARACTERS ARE SO DISTINCT.

>> EXACTLY.

REMIND US AGAIN THE CHARACTER YOU PLAY IN SCARFACE.

>> IN SCARFACE HE WAS CALLED EL MONO, THE MONKEY.

I USED TO SOUND LIKE HIM WHEN I GREW UP ON THE BORDER OF EL PASO.

>> I GOT NO RIGHT, NOBODY GOT NO RIGHT TO NEGOTIATE WITH FRANK LOPEZ -- >> GIVE US A PROPOSITION AND THEN WE CAN TALK MORE.

>> I'M TELLING YOU GOT NO AUTHORITY HERE.

OKAY?

>> BUT IT WAS NOT HARD BECAUSE I HAD ALL THAT TIME IN TRAVELING TO STUDY THE DIFFERENT MEN AND IT WAS LIKE A VACATION.

>> WASN'T AL PACINO ALSO CONSIDERED FOR SALIERI?

OR HAVE I GOT THAT WRONG?

>> AL WAS -- EVERYBODY WANTED TO DO SALIERI AND AL WAS ONE OF THOSE ACTORS.

AND WHILE WE WERE ON THE SET WHEN I GOT THE AWARD HE SAID, "MURRAY, DON'T CARRY THE WHOLE MOVIE ON YOUR SHOULDERS.

JUST DO YOUR WORK."

HE'S A VERY GENEROUS ACTOR.

>> THAT WAS A GOOD PIECE OF ADVICE.

>> AND HE WAS RIGHT.

>> SO YOU JUST CALLED YOURSELF MURRAY BUT YOU'RE F. MURRAY ABRAHAM.

WHAT IS F.?

>> WELL, I PUT IT IN THERE BECAUSE IT MAKES MURRAY ABRAHAM STAND OUT.

BUT IT'S A TRIBUTE TO MY FATHER.

>> WHAT WAS HIS NAME?

>> FERID.

FREDERICK.

>> WELL, FERID.

HE WAS SYRIAN.

>> YES.

>> SO YOU COME FROM SYRIAN AND ITALIAN.

>> YEP.

>> AND YOU GREW UP AS YOU JUST SAID IN EL PASO.

>> RIGHT.

>> SO YOU HAVE A MULTICULTI UPBRINGING.

>> YEAH.

AND IT'S REALLY A SHAME THAT THAT WALL WAS THERE BECAUSE IT WAS A GREAT EXPERIENCE.

IT'S TOO BAD PEOPLE CAN'T SHARE THAT MULTICULTURAL EXPERIENCE.

>> WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THAT?

BECAUSE I THINK YOU CROSSED IT AT WILL.

JUAREZ WAS YOUR PLAYGROUND.

>> IT WAS.

AND IT WAS SAFE AND IT WAS CHEAP OR FREE.

AND I GREW UP NEAR THE RIVER.

I WOULD WALK ACROSS TO VISIT SOME FRIENDS WHO LIVED THERE.

I GREW UP WITH SOME KIDS WHO DIDN'T HAVE ANY SHOES.

I JUST -- PLAYING SOCCER WITHOUT SHOES, THEY WERE GOOD.

BUT THE POINT IS IT WAS A CULTURE THAT I -- THAT IS IN MY SOUL NOW.

AND THIS ACCENT THAT I HAD TO WORK ON TO TALK THIS WAY -- >> WHAT DID YOU USED TO TALK LIKE?

>> LIKE THE GUY "SCARFACE."

THAT WAS PRETTY CLOSE TO WHAT I SOUNDED LIKE.

THE MEX-TEX ACCENT.

BUT IT WAS THRILLING BECAUSE IT WAS TWO WORLDS COMBINED AT THE SAME TIME.

>> SUDDENLY YOUR CAREER'S TAKING OFF AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN WITH "WHITE LOTUS."

HOW DOES THAT FIT INTO YOUR GREATEST HITS?

WAS IT A GREAT EXPERIENCE?

>> IT WAS THE BEST JOB I EVER HAD.

BECAUSE OF MIKE WHITE.

>> THE WRITER.

>> THE WRITER.

THE WRITER-CREATOR-DIRECTOR.

>> SO JUST TO REMIND EVERYBODY, SO IT'S IN SICILY AND YOU ARE AN AMERICAN ITALIAN FAMILY COMING TO SICILY TO TRY TO CONNECT WITH YOUR ANCESTRAL ROOTS.

>> CORRECT.

IT WAS VERY REAL TO ME.

AND THE THREE OF US, THE MAN WHO PLAYED MY SON, MICHAEL IMPERIOLI, AND -- >> FAMOUSLY FROM "THE SOPRANOS."

>> YES.

AND MR. DeMARCO, THE YOUNG MAN FROM CANADA.

WE ALL BONDED.

I MEAN TRULY.

NOT JUST TO USE THAT WORD.

WE BECAME QUITE CLOSE.

>> YOU SAID YOU UNDERSTAND THAT LIFE, VERY TRADITIONAL.

AND TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I THINK YOU SAY IT YOURSELF, YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A FEMINIST BUT YOU WERE PLAYING A MALE CHAUVINIST PIG.

CORRECT?

>> YES.

EXACTLY.

>> SO I'M GOING TO PLAY THE CLIP.

>> OH, GOD.

>> DAD, YOU'VE GOT TO KNOCK IT OFF.

>> OH, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

>> WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

I MEAN, WHAT'S THE POINT?

>> FLIRTING IS ONE OF THE PLEASURES OF LIFE.

>> DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK YOU HAVE A CHANCE WITH ANY OF THESE WOMEN?

>> DON'T BE RUDE.

>> I'M JUST SAYING, YOU'RE 80 YEARS OLD.

>> WELL, I'M STILL A MAN.

AND I GET OLDER AND OLDER, BUT THE WOMEN I DESIRE REMAIN YOUNG.

NATURAL, RIGHT?

YOU CAN RELATE TO THAT.

>> FLIRTING IS A GREAT PART OF LIFE.

>> IT IS.

>> AT 83 I'M NOT SURE.

>> BUT DID YOU HAVE ANY -- I DON'T KNOW.

DID MICHAEL -- DID ANYBODY WORRY THAT IT WAS OF A DIFFERENT ERA?

>> I THINK THAT YOU TOUCHED ON SOMETHING THAT'S VERY SERIOUS IN OUR PROFESSION AND OUR SOCIETY NOW.

PEOPLE HAVE BECOME SO WORRIED ABOUT ANYTHING THEY SAY AND DO.

AND THAT PUTS THE BRAKES ON ANY CREATIVITY.

IT REALLY DOES.

YOU CAN'T BE CONCERNED WITH THAT.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT YOU'VE GOT TO DO IT FULL OUT.

IT SEEMS OBVIOUS TO ME.

BUT ALSO THE BIG SURPRISE WAS HOW MANY WOMEN RESPONDED TO MY CHARACTER CONSIDERING HE IS A PIG.

I MEAN, HE IS KIND OF INSENSITIVE TO THE ETHOS, AS YOU SAY.

AND IT DIDN'T STOP THEM FROM LIKING HIM.

>> WHAT DID WOMEN SAY TO YOU?

I ASSUME -- >> OH, I GET LETTERS, I GET COMMENTS IN THE STREET.

THEY JUST ADORE HIM.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT HE'S REALLY -- HE'S REALLY JUST SIMPLY BEING VERY HONEST.

AND I THINK THAT INSIDE THEY REALLY THINK HE'S A SENSITIVE, NICE MAN.

I LOVE THAT COMING THROUGH, HIS SENSE OF HUMANITY.

AND THEY RESPOND TO IT.

>> YOU'RE 83, AS YOU MENTIONED.

IT'S PRETTY AMAZING TO HAVE THIS GALLOPING CAREER EVEN NOW, RIGHT?

BUT IT'S INTERESTING FOR ME HOW YOU STARTED.

IT WASN'T OBVIOUS.

YOU WENT TO HOLLYWOOD AND IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR YOU AND THEN YOU MOVED BACK TO NEW YORK WITH YOUR WIFE, WHO YOU LOST A FEW MONTHS AGO.

WE'RE SORRY.

AND THEN YOU WENT TO UTA HAGEN, THE FAMOUS INSTRUCTOR.

WHAT DID SHE GIVE YOU IN HER INSTRUCTION?

WHAT WAS THE TRIGGERING POINT THERE?

>> SHE GAVE ME THE FOUNDATION TO MY TECHNIQUE.

IT WAS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

THE PROBLEM WAS THAT SHE BEGAN TO TAKE OVER.

I ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN.

IT WASN'T HER FAULT.

IT WAS MINE.

I WANTED TO PLEASE HER SO MUCH THAT I BEGAN TO FORGET WHO I WAS.

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT AT THE TIME.

BUT THE LONGER I STUDIED WITH HER THE WORSE I BEGAN.

THE LAST CLASS I TOOK WITH HER I WAS DOING A MONOLOGUE.

AND SHE STOPPED ME IN THE MIDDLE.

SHE NEVER DID THAT TO ANYONE.

SHE STOPPED ME AND SAID TO THE CLASS, THIS ACTOR HAS A GREAT TALENT AND HE PISSS ALL OVER IT.

AND THAT WAS THE LAST CLASS I TOOK WITH HER.

SHE KNEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING BECAUSE SHE LIKED ME.

>> WHAT WAS HAPPENING?

>> I COULDN'T FUNCTION.

I DON'T KNOW WHY.

I JUST WASN'T TRUSTING MYSELF ANY LONGER.

I WAS TRYING TO DO WHAT I THOUGHT SHE WANTED.

BUT TEACHERS CHANGED MY LIFE.

WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL I WAS A HOODLUM IN EL PASO, TEXAS.

A HOODLUM, A BUM.

AND A TEACHER INVITED ME TO BE AN ACTOR.

DON'T ASK ME WHY.

>> BUT WHY?

>> I'LL TELL YOU, IT'S A GIFT FROM HEAVEN.

I MEAN, I'M SINCERE.

WHAT DID SHE SEE IN ME THAT I DIDN'T KNOW I HAD?

THE CLOSEST I EVER CAME TO LITERATURE OR THEATER WAS TELLING JOKES.

I LOVED JOKES.

THAT'S ALL I COULD OFFER.

BUT I JUST WANTED TO GET OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL AND JUST LEAVE EL PASO.

BUT SHE -- SHE SAW SOMETHING.

I STARTED ACTING.

I KNEW WHERE I BELONGED.

I QUIT THE GANGS.

AND I WON AN ACTING CONTEST IN THE STATE OF TEXAS.

I WON A SCHOLARSHIP TO GO TO COLLEGE.

$100 SCHOLARSHIP.

>> A LOT THEN, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

AND THAT WAS IT.

I STUDIED FOR A YEAR.

THEN I WENT TO L.A. >> I MEAN, YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY SUPER SHARP, RIGHT?

SO YOU DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS REMEMBERING SCRIPTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I INTERVIEWED ONCE JUDI DENCH AND SHE HAS SOMEWHAT FAILING EYESIGHT AND SHE HAS MASSIVE FONT, IT'S PROBABLY ONE WORD PER PAGE.

AND THEN OTHER ACTORS I KNOW PUT -- THEY HAVE IT PIPED INTO THEIR EARS.

DO YOU HAVE ANY TRICKS?

>> YES.

YOU STUDY SOMETHING EVERY SINGLE DAY.

THAT'S WHAT I DO.

FOR ME IT'S SHAKESPEARE SONNETS.

OR ELIZABETH BARRETT BROWNING.

I LIKE HER SONNETS FROM THE PORTUGUESE ALSO.

BUT IT'S MEMORIZING.

IT'S INSISTING ON DOING A MEMORIZING -- A DISCIPLINE EVERY DAY, MORNING AND BEFORE YOU GO TO BED.

I REALLY DO IT.

>> SO IF I SAID SHAKESPEARE SONNET NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> I WOULD GIVE YOU A SONNET.

>> FEEL FREE.

>> I HAVE ONE THAT'S ON MY MIND BECAUSE OF MY WIFE'S PASSING.

WHEN TO THE SESSIONS OF SWEET SILENT THOUGHT I SUMMON UP REMEMBRANCE OF THINGS PAST I SIGH THE LACK OF MANY A THING I SOUGHT.

AND WITH OLD WOES NEW WAY MY DEAR TIME'S WASTE.

THEN CAN I DROWN MY EYES, UNUSED TO FLOW, FOR PRECIOUS FRIENDS HID IN DEATH'S DATELESS NIGHT AND WE PROFESS LOVE'S SINCE CANCELED WOE AND MOAN THE EXPENSE OF MANY A VANISHED SIGHT.

THEN CAN I GRIEVE AT GRIEVANCES FOREGONE AND HAPPILY FROM WOE TO WOE TELL OR THE SAD ACCOUNT OF FOR BEMOANED MOAN WHICH I KNEW WELL AS IF NOT WAILED BEFORE.

BUT IF THE TIME I THINK OF THEE, DEAR FRIEND, ALL LOSSES ARE RESTORED AND SORROWS END.

>> THAT IS JUST BEAUTIFUL FOR MANY, MANY REASONS.

YOUR WIFE, YOU LOST HER AFTER 62 YEARS OF BEING TOGETHER.

>> YEAH.

>> I MEAN, THAT'S ALMOST UNBELIEVABLE.

HOW ARE YOU?

HOW ARE YOU DOING?

>> NOT GOOD.

OH, THIS IS ACTING.

I DO IT BECAUSE I THINK I HAVE TO GET BACK TO WORK.

MY WORK REMAINS MY LIFE, AND IT'S MY SALVATION.

OTHERWISE, I WOULD, YOU KNOW, SIT AT HOME AND MOPE.

I AIN'T GOING TO DO THAT.

>> SO IN THAT CASE IS THERE ANYTHING PROFESSIONALLY THAT YOU STILL WANT TO DO?

I READ -- I MEAN, THERE MAY BE A LOT OF THINGS BUT I'VE READ FOR INSTANCE YOU SAY THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OUT THERE FOR PEOPLE OF YOUR AGE IN TERMS OF LOVE STORIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> I LOOK FOR ORIGINAL MATERIAL.

I LOOK FORWARD TO SOMEONE WRITING SOMETHING WITH ME IN MIND AT MY AGE BECAUSE THERE'S STILL A LOT OF LIFE LEFT IN ME.

THE CLASSICS ARE STILL THERE.

ALWAYS WAITING.

AND I'M THRILLED TO DO THEM.

AND I'M GOING TO BE DOING LEAR AGAIN.

THERE ARE THINGS TO DO.

BUT I WOULD PREFER SOMETHING NEW.

LIKE -- LIKE THIS WONDERFUL PIECE I JUST DID FOR "WHITE LOTUS."

SO THAT'S PROOF ENOUGH THAT IT CAN BE.

>> AMAZING.

WHAT A GREAT LIFE STORY AND WHAT A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL GIFT YOU'VE GIVEN THE WORLD WITH YOUR ACTING.

F. MURRAY ABRAHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANKS A LOT.

REALLY.

>> MEANTIME, "THE MAGIC FLUTE" IS IN THEATERS NOW.

IT WILL BE AVAILABLE ON DEMAND FROM APRIL 25th.

THIS MONTH MARKS THE THIRD ANNIVERSARY SINCE CORONAVIRUS BECAME A GLOBAL PANDEMIC AND THE WORLD WENT INTO LOCKDOWN.

BUT STILL MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SUFFER THE SYMPTOMS OF LONG COVID, A CONDITION THAT DOCTORS ARE DESPERATE TO UNDERSTAND.

WELL, IN A NEW PIECE FOR THE "SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN," NEUROSCIENTIST STEPHANI SUTHERLAND SAYS THAT LONG COVID NOW LOOKS LIKE A NEUROLOGICAL DISEASE, AND SHE SPEAKS TO HARI SRINIVASAN ALONGSIDE TARA GHORMLEY, A WOMAN WHO IS STRUGGLING WITH THAT CONDITION.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

STEPHANI SUTHERLAND, DR. TARA GHORMLEY.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

STEPHANI, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

HERE WE ARE THREE YEARS OUT AND WE'VE HAD MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT LONG COVID.

WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS?

WHAT HAVE THE SCIENTISTS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THINK IS CAUSING THIS?

>> LONG COVID ONLY STARTED TO BECOME REALIZED BY DOCTORS AND RESEARCHERS OVER THE MONTHS IN 2020 AND PARTICULARLY TOWARDS THE END OF 2020 AS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE STARTED TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SYMPTOMS OF LONG COVID.

WHAT WE DO KNOW NOW ABOUT LONG COVID IS IT SEEMS TO BE A POST-VIRAL SYNDROME, SO UNCLEAR EXACTLY WHAT IS CAUSING IT BUT LIKE MANY OTHER POST-VIRAL SYNDROMES IT HAS MANY DIFFERENT KIND OF MANIFESTATIONS.

SO OVER 200 DIFFERENT SYMPTOMS HAVE BEEN DESCRIBED OF LONG COVID.

MANY OF THEM AS I WRITE ABOUT IN A PIECE IN "SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN," MANY OF THEM BEING NEUROLOGICAL.

>> GIVE US AN IDEA OF HOW OR WHY SCIENTISTS THINK THAT THIS IS NEUROLOGICAL, BECAUSE FOR SO MANY PEOPLE THEY ARE AWARE OF THE PHYSICAL MANIFESTATIONS.

WHAT ARE THE INDICATORS THAT SCIENTISTS HAVE LOOKED AT THAT SAY THIS IS ACTUALLY AFFECTING THE NERVOUS SYSTEM AND THE BRAIN?

>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS THAT WE DON'T HAVE GREAT MARKERS, BIOMARKERS OR BIOLOGICAL READOUTS LIKE WE WOULD FOR THINGS LIKE CANCER, LUNG DISEASE AND SMFRT RESPIRATORY EFFECTS OF COVID-19.

WHAT DID BECOME REALLY CLEAR AND OBVIOUS AS I MENTIONED, ESPECIALLY TOWARD THE END OF 2020, WAS THAT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ALL AT ONCE DURING THE PANDEMIC AFTER HAVING COVID-19 WERE COMPLAINING OF NEUROLOGICAL SYMPTOMS.

SO THINGS, MANY OF WHICH TARA IS LIVING WITH, THINGS LIKE POSTURAL ORTHOSTATIC TACK ICARD SYNDROME WHICH CAUSE AZ RACING HEART AND KEEPS YOU FROM BEING UPRIGHT AND POST-EXERTION MALAISE WHERE PEOPLE WILL HAVE KIND OF AN ENERGY CRASH AFTER EXPENDING MENTAL OR PHYSICAL ENERGY.

AND THOSE SEEM LIKE PHYSICAL MANIFESTATIONS BUT THOSE TWO CAN BE ROOTED IN THE NERVOUS SYSTEM.

AND THINGS LIKE BRAIN FATIGUE, SEVERE BRAIN FOG, SEVERE FATIGUE, THINGS LIKE LOSS OF SMELL AND TASTE AND OTHER THINGS LIKE PAIN, HYPERSENSITIVITY TO SOUND AND OTHER SENSATIONS THAT CLEARLY ARE ROOTED IN THE NERVOUS SYSTEM SOMEHOW.

>> SO TARA, LET ME COME TO YOU HERE.

WHEN DID YOU KNOW THAT THIS WASN'T LIKE THE FLU?

YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE TO GET IT IN CALIFORNIA, IN MARCH OF 2020, BUT YOU'RE ALSO SOMEONE WHO HAS A MEDICAL BACKGROUND.

YOU'RE TRAINED AS A VETERINARIAN.

WHEN DID YOU FIGURE OUT THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME HERE THAT'S BEYOND JUST, YOU KNOW, WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE GETTING IS THE SYMPTOMS OF COVID?

>> I REMEMBER THAT I JUST NEVER GOT BETTER.

I SPENT A WEEK IN THE HOSPITAL AND WAS DISCHARGED AND WAS TOLD OH, IN TWO WEEKS YOU'LL FEEL BETTER.

TWO WEEKS CAME AND WENT.

I DIDN'T FEEL BETTER.

AND AS THE WEEKS WENT BY I CONTINUED TO HAVE SYMPTOMS AND ASKED MY DOCTORS AND THEY WERE VERY HONEST AND SAID WE DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS NORMAL OR NOT, WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH, IT'S SO VERY EARLY IN THIS NEW DISEASE.

AND AS TIME PROGRESSED I DEVELOPED NEW SYMPTOMS AND THESE ARE SYMPTOMS THAT I DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE I GOT COVID OR EVEN WHEN I HAD COVID.

THINGS LIKE REALLY BAD MEMORY ISSUES, DIFFICULTY FINDING WORDS.

LIKE STEPHANI SAID SENSITIVITY TO SOUND.

AND WHEN I STARTED FINDING OUT THAT OTHER PEOPLE WERE HAVING THESE SYMPTOMS AS WELL THEN SOMETHING CLEARLY WAS GOING ON.

>> HOW DID THIS IMPACT YOUR LIFE AT THE TIME?

I MEAN, HAVING ALL THESE SYMPTOMS SEEMS JUST PHYSICALLY DEBILITATING.

>> VERY MUCH SO.

I WAS OUT OF WORK FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.

AND BASICALLY ALL THROUGH THE SUMMER OF 2020 AND INTO THE FALL AND EVEN THEN WHEN I STARTED BACK TO WORK STILL TOOK A LOT OUT OF ME, STILL REALLY -- AND STILL DO HAVE TO DO THINGS TO ADAPT.

SO A LOT MORE WRITING THINGS DOWN, A LOT MORE TAKING BREAKS WHEN I CAN, A LOT MORE CONCENTRATION ON MY SLEEP.

SO EVEN STILL TO THIS DAY IT IMPACTS ME BUT I, LIKE I SAID, WAS OUT FOR MULTIPLE MONTHS BEFORE I COULD EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING BACK TO WORK.

>> STEPHANI, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT TARA IS DESCRIBING WHICH SEEMS SO DIFFICULT IS IF THERE ARE 200 DIFFERENT SYMPTOMS HOW DOES A DOCTOR KNOW THAT IT'S THE COVID THAT'S BEHIND THIS?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DOCTORS ARE DEALING WITH THAT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO TREAT LONG COVID IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE SOMETHING ELSE ISN'T GOING ON.

SO MANY PEOPLE ARE ESPECIALLY PRESENTING WITH NEUROLOGICAL OR CARDIOVASCULAR SYMPTOMS, THEY HAVE TO RUN ALL KINDS OF TESTS TO MAKE SURE THAT SOMETHING ELSE ISN'T GOING ON OR THAT THERE WASN'T A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION THAT MIGHT HAVE LED TO THIS, AND REALLY THE ONLY REASON THAT IT HAS BECOME CLEAR THAT COVID IS THE TRIGGER FOR THESE MANY SYMPTOMS IS THAT SO MANY MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE TURNING UP WITH THESE SYMPTOMS IN THE WAKE OF HAVING ACUTE COVID, KIND OF ALL IN THIS LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> STEPHANI, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT THESE PATIENTS HAVE IN COMMON, OR ARE THERE THINGS THAT MAKE YOU MORE LIKELY TO GET LONG COVID?

>> SO THERE ARE SOME RISK FACTORS THAT SEEM TO BE EMERGING WHICH ARE ALSO COMMON TO SOME OTHER POST-VIRAL SYNDROMES.

IT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE THE CASE THAT THE MOST SEVERE CASES NECESSARILY DEVELOP LONG COVID.

MANY PEOPLE HAVE A MILD CASE, SOMETIMES EVEN ASYMPTOMATIC CASES.

HOSPITALIZATION DOES SEEM TO SLIGHTLY INCREASE THE RISK.

BUT INTERESTINGLY, AMONG PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT HOSPITALIZED THE RISK IS GREATER AMONG YOUNGER ADULTS THAN ELDERLY PEOPLE.

WOMEN ARE DEFINITELY AT GREATER RISK THAN MEN.

MANY MORE WOMEN ARE DEVELOPING LONG COVID.

AND THERE ARE SOME RISKS FROM PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS SUCH AS AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE SEEMS TO BE A BIG RISK.

ALSO THINGS LIKE OBESITY AND SMOKING THAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT.

BUT REALLY WOMEN AND YOUNGER PEOPLE SEEM TO BE AT GREATER RISK, WHICH IS VERY SURPRISING.

>> SO STEPHANI, WHAT ARE THE LONG-TERM IMPLICATIONS TO OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IF WE HAVE THIS NEW POPULATION THAT ON THE ONE HAND ISN'T HEALTHY BUT ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALSO NOT SORT OF FULLY FUNCTIONING CONTRIBUTORS TO OUR SOCIETY, OUR ECONOMY, OUR CULTURE AND EVERYTHING ELSE?

>> YEAH.

I HAVE TO SAY THAT I HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT TO THE PATIENT-LED ADVOCACY GROUPS WHO ARE REALLY SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT THIS.

GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ARE MAYBE SLOWLY COMING ALONG TO REALIZE WHAT AN EVENT THIS IS.

PATIENT GROUPS WILL CALL IT A MASS DISABLING EVENT.

I WILL SAY THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, NIH, HAS NOW RAMPED UP EFFORTS AND FUNDING TO STUDY THIS PROBLEM.

BUT IN TERMS OF CARING FOR THESE TENS -- WHAT WILL END UP BEING TENS OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, AGAIN, THIS IS JUST IN THE U.S. ALONE, YEAH, IT'S A MASSIVE GAP AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE MANY, MANY PEOPLE DISABLED.

AND SO PEOPLE, LIKE TARA HAS BEEN LIVING AND SUFFERING WITH THIS DISEASE NOW FOR THREE YEARS SINCE MARCH OF 2020.

SOME PEOPLE DO GET BETTER AR A AFTER A FEW MONTHS.

SOME PEOPLE MAYBE WILL GET BETTER AND THEN HAVE A FLARE-UP.

BUT THERE IS A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE REALLY DEALING WITH THIS IN A LONG-TERM WAY FOR YEARS.

>> TARA, WHAT WAS THE BREAKTHROUGH?

WHEN DID YOU FEEL LIKE OKAY, THIS DOCTOR OR GROUP OF DOCTORS GETS IT AND SOMETHING'S STARTING TO WORK?

AND WHAT IS WORK?

>> THE BREAKTHROUGH THAT WE FIRST HAD WAS WHEN WE DISCOVERED THE POTS, POSTURAL ORTHOSTATIC TACKCARDIA SYNDROME THAT STEPHANI MENTIONED AS THE CAUSE OF THE PERSISTENT DIFFICULTY BREATHING.

MY HEART RATE WOULD SHOOT UP REALLY QUICKLY.

AND WE ACTUALLY CAUGHT THAT ON A HEART MONITOR.

AND THAT WAS NEVER CAUGHT ANY PLACE ELSE.

MY HEART ULTRA-SOUNDS WERE ALWAYS NORMAL.

MY EKGs IN THE CLINIC WERE ALWAYS NORMAL.

BUT THE MOMENT I'D STAND UP, GET UP FROM LAYING DOWN, MY HEART RATE WOULD SPIKE.

AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT WE ACTUALLY FOUND SOMETHING THAT WAS REALLY ABNORMAL.

AND MY CARDIOLOGIST ACTUALLY RECOGNIZED THIS VERY EARLY IN THE KIND OF LONG COVID BEFORE A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE BEING DIAGNOSED WITH THIS SYNDROME.

SHE PUT ME ON SOME MEDICATIONS THAT HAPPENED TO HELP QUITE A BIT.

SO THE HEART MEDICATIONS HAVE HELPED A LOT, REALLY CONTROLLING MY HEARTRATE.

SOME OF THE SYMPTOMS I GET WITH THAT.

I ALSO HAVE -- ALSO LOW DOSE NAL TREXOWN WHICH IS A MEDICATION THAT CAN HELP FATIGUE, SOMETIMES PAIN, SOMETIMES BRAIN FOG.

THAT SEEMS TO HELP.

AND I ALSO DEVELOPED SOME MASS CELL DISEASE FROM THIS, FROM COVID AND STARTED SOME MEDICATIONS FOR THAT.

THAT ALSO HAVE BEEN VERY HELPFUL.

>> SO WHAT HAS THIS KEPT YOU FROM IN YOUR LIFE NOW?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENCE.

AND I'M KIND OF HAVING MORE TROUBLE REMEMBERING PRECOVID THAN POST-COVID AT THIS TIME BECAUSE IT IS GOING ON THREE YEARS.

DEFINITELY WORK HAS BEEN A LOT MORE DIFFICULT.

I HAD TO LEAVE MY CLINICAL JOB BECAUSE OF IT, WHICH I NEVER THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO DO.

IT WAS SOMETHING I NEVER IMAGINED.

AND STILL HAVE DIFFICULT DOING THINGS LIKE GOING OUT DANCING WITH MY FRIENDS, WHICH I USED TO DO ALL THE TIME.

THINGS LIKE THAT WILL JUST TIRE ME OUT.

I AM ABLE TO DO CERTAIN THINGS WITH DISABILITY HELP.

SO THINGS LIKE GOING TO THEME PARKS, THEY ACTUALLY HAVE ABILITY FOR PEOPLE WITH CONDITIONS LIKE MINE TO KIND OF NOT HAVE TO STAND UP AS MUCH.

SO IT DOES ALLOW ME TO ENJOY SOME THINGS I DID BEFOREHAND BUT THERE'S DEFINITELY STILL A BIG DIFFERENCE FROM PRE-COVID TO CURRENTLY.

>> STEPHANI, I ALSO WONDER IF THERE'S A GENDER DISPARITY HERE IN HOW PATIENTS ARE BELIEVED AND SEEN BY DOCTORS.

WHEN THEY PRESENT WITH THIS.

BECAUSE EVEN BEFORE COVID I WOULD HEAR COMPLAINTS FROM WOMEN I KNOW THAT I JUST CAN'T GET THE DOCTOR TO TAKE ME SERIOUSLY ABOUT THIS.

>> YEAH.

THAT'S DEFINITELY ANOTHER ASPECT OF LONG COVID, THAT IT DOES AFFECT MANY MORE WOMEN THAN MEN.

AND AS YOU SAY, A TRADITIONLY, HISTORICALLY ROOTED IN THAT OLD HYSTERIA CONCEPT WHERE WOMEN ARE NOT BELIEVED, THEY MAY BE GASLIT, AND IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.

AND YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT ONE THING ABOUT LONG COVID IS BECAUSE SO MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE GOT SICK WITH COVID-19 AT THE SAME TIME AND PEOPLE ALL STARTED TO DEVELOP THIS LONG COVID IN 2020 IT WAS REALLY HARD TO IGNORE THE LINK.

IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT THIS WAS A POST-VIRAL ILLNESS.

AND I JUST WANT TO MENTION THIS IS SIMILAR THERE'S A LOT OF OVERLAP WITH MIE JIK -- OR CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME.

WHICH ALSO AFFECTS MANY MORE WOMEN THAN MEN AND ALSO WAS TREATED AS SOMETHING EVEN RECENTLY THAT DOCTORS DIDN'T BELIEVE EXISTED AND MANY WOMEN HAVE REALLY SUFFERED WITH IT.

BECAUSE IT'S A POST-VIRAL ILLNESS BUT IT DIDN'T ARISE DURING A GLOBAL PANDEMIC IT'S REALLY HARD TO PIN DOWN WHEN PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE DEVELOPED IT OR WHEN THE VIRAL INFECTION MAY HAVE HAPPENED.

SO IN THAT CONDITION IT HAD VERY THE HOPE IS THAT ALL THIS INTENSE RESEARCH ONTO LONG COVID WILL ALSO KIND OF PAY SOME DIVIDENDS, SOME BENEFITS TO HELP BETTER UNDERSTAND CHRONIC FATIGUE AND OTHER POST-VIRAL ILLNESSES THAT ARE STILL REALLY QUITE MYSTERIOUS.

>> TARA, CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU THINK YOUR BRAIN IS DOING, SO TO SPEAK?

I MEAN, I KNOW THAT EARLY ON IN THIS PROCESS YOU HAD SORT OF COGNITIVE TESTS THAT YOU WERE GIVEN AND YOU TOOK THEM AGAIN.

CAN YOU SEE AN IMPROVEMENT?

OR WHAT'S STILL LACKING?

>> I ACTUALLY DO HAVE A SLIGHT IMPROVEMENT.

NOW, WHEN YOU TAKE COGNITIVE TESTS IT'S NOT JUST YOU FAIL OR YOU PASS, IT IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THEY KIND OF COMPARE AGAINST YOUR AGE GROUP AND YOUR EDUCATION.

SO NORMAL FOR ONE PERSON IS NOT NECESSARILY NORMAL FOR SOMEBODY ELSE.

BUT THE DEFICITS WHERE I WAS ABNORMAL FOR ME, SOME OF THOSE HAVE IMPROVED A LITTLE BIT.

BUT I DEFINITELY STILL HAVE PROBLEMS, THINGS LIKE MEMORY, LEARNING.

SO PROCESSING SPEED.

IT JUST TAKES ME A LITTLE BIT LONGER THAN IT USED TO.

ESPECIALLY AUDITORY CUES.

SO WE JUST WENT OVER THAT.

CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT I'M STILL BE ABLE TO BE HIGH FUNCTIONING IN, VETERINARY MEDICINE BUT I HAVE TO DO A COUPLE OTHER THINGS JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT I'M ABLE TO REMEMBER THINGS BETTER THAN I USED TO BE ABLE TO.

>> STEPHANI, HAS THERE BEEN ANY KIND OF TREATMENT THAT HAS BEEN WORKING FOR A LARGE SUBSET OF THE POPULATION?

I KNOW THAT SO MANY OF THESE FOLKS HAVE DIFFERENT SYMPTOMS, BUT ARE THERE ANY TREATMENTS OR THERAPIES THAT SCIENTISTS ARE INTERESTED IN OR EXCITED ABOUT EVEN IF IT'S OFF LABEL, SOMETHING THAT WAS DEVELOPED FOR A DIFFERENT SYNDROME?

>> THE ONLY WAY THAT DOCTORS CAN TREAT LONG COVID RIGHT NOW IS KIND OF SYMPTOM BY SYMPTOM.

SO WHETHER IT'S A CARDIOVASCULAR SYMPTOM, AND AS SHE MENTIONED ALSO SOME PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING MEDICATIONS THAT ARE TYPICALLY USED FOR ATTENTION DEFICIT DISORDER, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT MIGHT HELP THEM GET THROUGH THEIR BRAIN FOG A LITTLE BIT BETTER AND THINGS LIKE LOW DOSE NALTREXONE FOR PAIN OR FATIGUE.

BUT THERE REALLY IS NO TREATMENT RIGHT NOW FOR LONG COVID AS A WHOLE.

RESEARCHERS ARE STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE UNDERLYING CAUSE, WHAT IS STILL GOING ON, HOW IS THE VIRUS STILL AFFECTING THE BRAIN AND THE BODY AND THE WHOLE NERVOUS SYSTEM?

I WILL SAY THERE ARE CLINICAL TRIALS ONGOING FOR PAXLOVID, THE ANTI-VIRAL TREATMENT, WITH ONE OF THE THOUGHTS IS THAT THERE MAY BE SMALL POCKETS OR EVEN JUST PIECES OF THE VIRUS PERSISTING IN THE BODY AND THE ANTI-VIRAL TREATMENTS MIGHT HELP CLEAR THAT OUT.

SO THOSE TRIALS ARE ONGOING.

BUT IN TERMS OF A TREATMENT OR A CURE WE STILL ARE IN EARLY DAYS, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> SO VS.

DONE ALL THIS RESEARCH, STEPHANIE, WHAT IS THE THING YOU WOULD TELL PATIENTS OF THIS DISEASE THAT MIGHT NOT YET BE DIAGNOSED THAT THEY HAVE LONG COVID?

WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?

WHAT KIND OF DOCTOR SHOULD THEY SEEK?

>> AS WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, THE GAP IS REALLY LARGE IN TERMS OF THE CARE AVAILABLE FOR THESE PATIENTS.

WHAT I WOULD SAY TO PATIENTS IS THIS IS REAL AND I HOPE THAT EVERYONE CAN FIND A DOCTOR -- WHAT I WOULD REALLY SAY TO PHYSICIANS IS PLEASE BELIEVE YOUR PATIENTS BECAUSE THIS IS A NEUROIMMUNE DISORDER.

IT IS NOT A PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER.

IT IS NOT PSYCHOSOMATIC.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING PEOPLE ARE UNSURE ABOUT.

THIS IS A VERY REAL PHYSICAL DISEASE THAT FOR MANY PEOPLE ARE WITH NEUROLOGICAL SYMPTOMS IS ROOTED IN THE NERVOUS SYSTEM BUT CAN AFFECT OTHER SYSTEMS OF THE BODY AS WELL.

IS A REAL THING.

>> TARA GHORMLEY, SAME QUESTION TO YOU.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO OTHER PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO MIGHT FIND THEMSELVES IN YOUR MEDICAL SHOES SO TO SPEAK OR AT LEAST THE TYPE OF SYMPTOMS THAT THEY'RE HAVING?

>> LIKE STEPHANI SAID, THESE SYMPTOMS ARE REAL.

AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE A DOCTOR THAT BELIEVES YOU NEED TO FIND A NEW DOCTOR.

AND I KNOW THAT'S SOMETIMES EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

BUT THERE ARE DOCTORS THAT WILL HELP YOU, I PROMISE.

IT JUST CAN BE HARD TO FIND UNFORTUNATELY.

AND OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE REALLY HELPED ME, THE MAIN THING I WOULD SAY IS TO FIND A SUPPORT GROUP.

AND THERE ARE ONLINE SUPPORT GROUPS.

THERE'S ALSO FACEBOOK SUPPORT GROUPS.

AND YOU'LL FIND OTHER PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAVE THE SAME SYMPTOMS AND YOU READ EVERYTHING ABOUT PEOPLE GETTING BETTER IN SIX MONTHS AND YOU'RE WONDERING WHY YOU'RE STILL SICK.

THERE'S A LOT OF US OUT THERE THAT ARE UNFORTUNATELY STILL BATTLING THESE SYSTEMS.

SO FINDING OTHER PATIENTS THAT HAVE THE SAME SYMPTOMS OR ARE BATTLING THE SAME THING IS ACTUALLY VERY, VERY HELPFUL AND DID HELP ME QUITE A BIT KIND OF NORMALIZE WHAT I WAS GOING THROUGH.

>> TARA GHORMLEY, VETERINARIAN AND LONG COVID PATIENT, AND STEPHANI SUTHERLAND, NEUROSCIENTIST AND JOURNALIST.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> STILL SO MUCH TO DISCOVER THERE.

AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A SUPERHUMAN FEAT THAT WILL LEAVE YOU BREATHLESS.

40-YEAR-OLD CZECH FREE DIVER DAVID VENSEL HAS MADE A RECORD-BREAKING PLUNGE INTO THE ICY DEPTH OF SWITZERLAND'S LAKE SILLS, BRAVING THE FREEZING COLD WATERS AND TRAVELING MORE THAN 50 METERS DEEP WITHOUT A WET SUIT.

HE LASTED A MINUTE AND 54 SECONDS, CELEBRATING WHEN HE RESURFACED HOW ELSE BUT WITH A BOTTLE OF CHAMPAGNE, OF COURSE.

HE DESERVES IT.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.