March 17, 2023

>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT HAS ISSUED TWO WARRANTS OF ARREST.

>> WANTED MAN.

THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ISSUES AN ARREST WARRANT FOR RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN FOR ALLEGEDLY DEPORTING UKRAINIAN CHILDREN TO RUSSIA.

THEN -- >> THE DAYS OF IRAQ ACTING AS AN OUTLAW STATE ARE COMING TO AN END.

>> THE IRAQ INVASION 20 YEARS ON.

HARROWING IMAGES OF THE HUMAN IMPACT WITH THE CLAIMED PHOTOGRAPHER AND IRAQ BORN ARTIST.

THEN, MISSING IN MEXICO.

INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST PENNY LEE RAMIREZ DIVES INTO CARTELS, DRUGS, IMMIGRATION, AND WHAT IS BEHIND THE EPIDEMIC OF THE DISAPPEARED.

PLUS -- >> THE REACTION OF BEING HARMED AND NEEDING TO IMMEDIATELY STOP EVERYTHING AND TO NAME THAT HARM AND CREATING AN UNSAFE SPACE MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A REGULAR SEMINAR.

>> PROFESSOR VINCENT LLOYD TALKS ABOUT HIS EYE-CATCHING ESSAY "A BLACK PROFESSOR TRAPPED IN ANTI-RACIST HELL."

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

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WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT TO NOT MISS WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

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THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M MICHAEL HOLMES IN ATLANTA SITTING IN FORTUNE AMANPOUR.

>>> RUSSIA'S VLADIMIR PUTIN IS NOW A WANTED MAN.

THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ISSUED A WARRANT FOR HIS ARREST FOR ALLEGED WAR CRIMES INCLUDING DEPORTING UKRAINIAN CHILDREN TO RUSSIA.

NIC ROBERTSON IS STANDING BY IN LONDON FOR US.

AN ARREST WARRANT FOR A HEAD OF STATE, A PRESIDENT OF A NATION THAT SITS ON THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, JUST HOW EXTRAORDINARY IS THIS?

>> Reporter: THERE'S NEVER BEEN SOMETHING THIS BIG BEFORE.

TO ACCUSE A LEADER OF SUCH A MAJOR THING AS BEING A WAR CRIMINAL AND IF PROSECUTED THOUGH IT SEEMS UNLIKELY BUT IF PROSECUTED AND FOUND GUILTY HE WOULD BE A WAR CRIMINAL.

HIS POSITION AS LEADER OF ONE OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL'S PERMANENT FIVE MEMBERS HAS MEANT IN THE PAST HE'S BEEN ABLE TO GO TO NEW YORK AND SPEAK TO THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, STAND AT THAT PODIUM, A MEMBER OF THE G20, ABLE TO GO AND MEET WITH OTHER G20 LEADERS IN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES IN THE PAST.

THAT'S GOING TO END AS WELL.

PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS PUT HIGH STOCK IN HIS ABILITY TO BE THE LEADER OF A POWERFUL NATION AND TO STRIDE THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE AND EXERT THAT POWER AND INFLUENCE THAT IT HELD.

THAT IS NO MORE.

NOW THE KREMLIN SAYS THE ICC HAS NO WRIT WITH THEM AND IT IS CLEAR FROM WITHIN THE WALLS OF THE KREMLIN THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAVE A REAL IMPACT ON PUTIN, BUT IT IS DESIGNED TO GET IN HIS MIND AND TO ALTER THE WAY THAT HE THINKS ABOUT THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

HIS FUTURE WORLD AFTER THE WAR IN UKRAINE IS NOW PRESCRIBED.

MEETING THE U.S. PRESIDENT FOR EXAMPLE NOW COMPLETELY UNIMAGINABLE.

AND HE PUTS A HUGE STOCK IN THAT.

HE'S ALWAYS WANTED TO NEGOTIATE DIRECTLY WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN OVER THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

SO IT RADICALLY CHANGES HIS OUTLOOK AND SENDS A HUGE MESSAGE TO ANYONE FIGHTING FOR HIM IN UKRAINE.

THAT IS WHAT UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS ARE SAYING.

RUSSIA ESSENTIALLY ACCORDING TO A PROSECUTOR GENERAL IN UKRAINE, RUSSIA ESSENTIALLY A CRIMINAL STATE.

>> EXTRAORDINARY TIMES.

NIC ROBERTSON, OUR THANKS TO YOU.

DO MAKE SURE YOU TUNE IN TO "AMANPOUR" NEXT WEEK WHEN CHRISTIANE WILL BE SPEAKING TO THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT PROSECUTOR.

>>> TURNING NOW TO A MEMORY ETCHED IN THE MINDS OF SO MANY, 20 YEARS AGO NEXT WEEK THE SKIES LIGHTING UP OVER BAGHDAD.

THE MOMENT AMERICA'S INVASION OF IRAQ BEGAN.

IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT THE CONTROVERSIAL DECISION TO GO TO WAR THERE HAS HAD ENORMOUS CONSEQUENCES -- DEATH, DESTRUCTION, INSTABILITY, THINGS IRAQIS ARE STILL VERY MUCH GRAPPLING WITH TODAY.

IT IS A STORY I FEEL PERSONALLY CONNECTED TO.

I FIRST WENT TO IRAQ IN APRIL, 2003, DRIVING FROM KUWAIT TO BAGHDAD WITH A CONVOY OF U.S. MARINES.

THE DAY AFTER SADDAM'S STATUE WAS TOPPLED, ARRIVING AMID THE CHAOS OF LOOTING AND AN ALMOST COMPLETE LACK OF EFFORT TO STOP IT, IT SEEMED HALF THE CITY WAS BURNING FOR DAYS.

I RETURNED 16 MORE TIMES, THE MOST RECENT DURING THE BATTLE TO RECAPTURE MOSUL FROM ISIS.

SO WITH 20 YEARS GONE FROM THE START OF THE WAR, WE TURN NOW TO TWO BRILLIANT PHOTOGRAPHERS WHO EACH DOCUMENT THE HUMAN IMPACT OF IT THROUGH DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.

LINDSAY ADARIA WAS ON THE GROUND AND THE OTHER PHOTOGRAPHER GREW UP AS A REFUGEE FROM THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

WE APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US HERE ON THE PROGRAM.

WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THE IRAQ WAR 20 YEARS ON HOW DO YOU REFLECT ON THOSE YEARS AND THE TOLL IT TOOK ON THE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE?

>> IT WAS SORT OF A TRAGEDY ACTUALLY.

I LOOK BACK.

IT WAS THE FIRST PROPER WAR I HAD EVER COVERED.

AND JUST WATCHING THE UNRAVELING OF A COUNTRY AND THE CHAOS, THE FIRES, THE LOOTING, MEN WRAPPED UP DURING THE NIGHT BY AMERICAN TROOPS GIVEN THE DIRECTIVE TO GO FIND INSURGENTS IN THE HEART OF THE SUNNI TRIANGLE, WATCHING PEOPLE HAVE BAGS PUT ON THEIR HEADS, ZIP TIES ON THEIR WRISTS.

SOME OF COURSE PRESUMABLY INNOCENT, AND JUST, YOU KNOW, REALLY JUST WATCHING THE DEMISE AND CHAOS OF A COUNTRY.

>> THOSE EARLY MONTHS IN PARTICULAR WERE JUST HORRIBLE IN TERMS OF THE DISORGANIZATION, THE CHAOS AS YOU SAY, THE LACK OF STRUCTURE, OF CONTROL.

YOU LEFT IRAQ AS THE FIRST GULF WAR STARTED IN 1991.

WHAT WERE YOUR THOUGHTS WHEN THE SECOND ONE BEGAN IN YOUR COUNTRY OF BIRTH 20 YEARS AGO?

>> WELL, IT WAS DEVASTATING.

I JUST SAW THE IMAGES AND MY HEART STARTED POUNDING ALL OVER AGAIN.

WORDS CAN'T REALLY DESCRIBE SEEING YOUR MOTHERLAND BOMBED BY YOUR NEW HOME LAND.

IT IS STILL SOMETHING WE TRY TO PROCESS.

THOUGH IT IS THE 20th ANNIVERSARY, IT IS THE DAY BEFORE MY BIRTHDAY SO IT HOLDS A SPECIAL PLACE, THIS CONSTANT REMINDER OF WHAT THE TOLL OF WAR DOES TO A FAMILY AND NATION.

>> YEAH.

YOU PUT THAT SO WELL WATCHING YOUR HOME COUNTRY BEING BOMBED BY YOUR NEW COUNTRY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS NOW, WES, YOUR WORK FOCUSES A LOT ON FAMILY, EXTENDED FAMILY, AND FRIENDS AS REFUGEES FROM WAR.

WHAT HAS BEEN THE STORY YOU'VE WANTED PEOPLE TO SEE THROUGH YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS?

>> MY WHOLE WORK IS BASED ON GIVING AN UNDERSTAND AMERICAN MUSLIMS ARE NOT AN ARCHAIC FIGURE THAT LIVES IN THE PAST.

WE'RE PART OF THIS COUNTRY NOW AND PART OF THIS FABRIC.

MY WHOLE PROJECT IS ALWAYS TAKING -- I AM VERY INTERESTED IN FAMILY BECAUSE GROWING UP IN A REFUGEE CAMP, FAMILY WAS EVERYTHING.

AT THE SAME TIME, THIS WORK IS A HEALING PROCESS FOR ME AND THE COMMUNITY AND THE GRANDER SOCIETY, HOW DO WE PROCESS WAR AND HOW DO WE SPEAK ABOUT IT?

SO THIS IS BASICALLY THE WAR IN THIS WHOLE PROJECT THAT TAKES A TOLL, WHAT I'M DOING RIGHT NOW.

IT'S STILL ONGOING.

>> YEAH.

LINSEY, A FEW YEARS AGO AMERICAN PHOTO NAMED YOU ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PHOTOGRAPHERS OF THE LAST 25 YEARS SAYING YOU CHANGED THE WAY WE SEE THE WORLD'S CONFLICTS.

I AGREE WITH THAT.

WHEN IT COMES TO IRAQ WHAT DO YOU THINK OR HOPE YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS ACHIEVED?

>> THAT WAS REALLY THE FIRST WAR I COVERED AND THE INITIAL DAYS WERE SO CHAOTIC I WAS RUNNING AROUND COVERING EVERYTHING FROM MASS GRAVES TO THE PROTESTS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T GET MONEY OUT OF THE BANK.

THERE WAS NO WATER, NO ELECTRICITY.

WATCHING SORT OF THE BEGINNING OF THE INSURGENCIY AND REALLY SORT OF THEN DOING MY FIRST MILITARY EMBEDS.

A LOT OF THAT WAS SORT OF A REAL AWAKENING FOR ME.

OF COURSE I, LIKE SO MANY JOURNALISTS, SPENT THE FIRST FEW MONTHS LOOKING FOR WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION THAT WE WERE TOLD EXISTED IN IRAQ AND THAT OF COURSE WAS FUTILE BUT SPENT A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHY WE WERE THERE AND LOOKING FOR THOSE WEAPONS.

>> I WANTED TO ASK YOU HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS FOR YOU TO PUT A HUMAN SIDE TO THOSE YOU PHOTOGRAPH SO THAT OTHERS, PARTICULARLY IN THE U.S. WHERE YOU LIVE NOW SEE PEOPLE, NOT REFUGEES OR STRANGERS OR FOREIGNERS, YOU KNOW, ARABS.

>> WELL, I THINK WE'VE BEEN BOMBARDED WITH THAT INFORMATION, YOU KNOW, YEARS BACK I READ THIS AMAZING ESSAY ABOUT THE AGE OF MECHANICAL REPRODUCTION AND I THINK IT REALLY SPARKED SOMETHING IN ME EVERY TIME I SEARCHED ARAB OR ANYTHING IT WAS ALL THIS NEGATIVE IMAGERY COMING OUT.

I WANTED TO CHALLENGE THAT NOTION BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE COMMUNITY, THE PEOPLE, THE MILLIONS OF MUSLIM AMERICANS LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE BEAUTIFUL AND LIVING THE LIFE.

I WANTED TO SHOW THAT WORK AND JUST RUN WITH IT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE AGREE WITH IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T REALLY COMPLICATED TO ASK PEOPLE TO BE PART OF THE PROJECT.

I JUST ASKED THEM TO COME AND BE AS YOU ARE.

>> LYNSEY, A SIMILAR POINT TO YOU.

I KNOW FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE AND IT WAS FRUSTRATING, THE BIG PICTURE OF WAR WAS OFTEN JUST A SEA OF NUMBERS, CASUALTIES ON BOTH SIDES AND SO ON.

WHAT IS STRIKING ABOUT BOTH OF YOUR PORTFOLIOS IS HOW YOU DOCUMENT THE HUMAN SIDE OF THE CONFLICT, THE PEOPLE, THE INTERACTIONS AND SO ON.

HOW IMPORTANT, LYNSEY IS THAT HUMANIZING OF PEOPLE GIVING NAMES AND FACES, NOT NUMBERS?

>> I MEAN, FOR ME IT IS EVERYTHING.

I THINK OF MYSELF AS SORT OF A HORRIBLE COMBAT PHOTOGRAPHER.

HALF THE TIME I'M BEING SHOT AT I FORGET TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS WHEREAS FOR ME IT IS REALLY ABOUT THE PEOPLE, THE WOMEN, THE CHILDREN, THE CIVILIANS, THE ELDERLY.

THAT IS A THREAD I'VE CARRIED THROUGH TWO DECADES OF WAR COVERAGE.

I THINK IN IRAQ IT WAS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO FIND THE TENDER MOMENTS TO CONNECT THE AUDIENCE AROUND THE WORLD WITH PEOPLE THEMSELVES.

>> HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT TO ADJUST TO A RADICALLY DIFFERENT LIFE IN THE U.S.?

HOW DIFFICULT WERE THOSE EARLY YEARS?

DO YOU EVER FULLY ADJUST?

>> WELL, I MEAN, SO GOING BACK I GREW UP IN A REFUGEE CAMP SO THE FIRST GULF WAR HAPPENS.

THEN YOU LIVE IN A REFUGEE CAMP FOR FOUR AND A HALF YEARS AND YOU GET TO MOVE TO THE MIDWEST, YOU KNOW?

THAT IS A BIG CHANGE REGARDLESS -- WE LIVE NEXT TO A BYPASS, NEXT TO A PLASTIC FACTORY.

TO YOU THAT IS A SAFE HOME AND LYNSEY CAN ATTEST TO THAT BEING A REFUGEE AND IN A WAR ZONE YOU JUST WANT A SAFE PLACE AND THAT IS WHAT MY PARENTS WERE STRIVING FOR JUST FOR THEIR KIDS TO BE SAFE.

AND YOU NEVER REALLY GET TO ADJUST BECAUSE YOU ARE ALWAYS THE OTHER.

THERE IS ALWAYS THIS HIYPHENATE AMERICAN.

YOU GET TO ADJUST AND SOCIETY HAS TO ADJUST TO YOU AND THERE IS ALWAYS THAT BACK AND FORTH.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE.

WE ARE NOT THE FIRST GROUP.

THERE ARE A LOT OF AMERICANS STILL STRUGGLING WITH HOW TO ADJUST TO THIS COUNTRY.

>> I KNOW THAT YOU, AND I WAS READING SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT LYNSEY THAT YOU'VE ALWAYS ADMIRED HER AND RESPECTED HER PHOTOGRAPHY.

I WANTED YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE IMPACT OF LYNSEY'S WORK IN IRAQ AND IF THERE IS ANYTHING YOU'D LIKE TO ASK HER.

>> WELL, I MEAN, WITH LYNSEY IT IS LIKE, LOOK, I WAS ALWAYS A CRITICAL PHOTO JOURNALIST BUT WITH LYNSEY'S WORK WHAT HIT TO HEART IT WAS THE HUMAN, I'M NOT SEEN AS A NUMBER.

I AM VERY LIKE INTO WORKING WITH THE ARCHIVES AND EVERYTHING I PICK UP IS JUST A NUMBER ON SOMEBODY'S LAPEL, SOMEBODY'S SHIRT.

WITH LYNSEY'S WORK IT IS HUMANIZING.

I THINK IT HAS THIS I WOULD SAY A MOTHERLY LOOK TO IT LIKE THE OTHER PERSON FEELS LIKE A HUMAN ON THE OTHER END OF THE LENS NOT JUST ANOTHER -- YOU KNOW, I'M ALWAYS LIKE, I DON'T WANT TO BE THAT, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LENS WITH A RUNNY NOSE AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE JUST OUT OF PLACE.

WITH LYNSEY'S WORK YOU GET TO SEE BOTH SIDES.

NOBODY WANTS WAR.

THAT IS THE REALITY OF IT.

IF IT IS AN AMERICAN SOLDIER OR IRAQI CIVILIAN OR WHATEVER, COMBATANT, THEY ALL HAVE FAMILY.

THEY ALL HAVE LOVED ONES.

THEY ALL HAVE THAT ONE AND THAT IS WHAT I SAID WHEN I HEARD, LYNSEY IN CONVERSATION, IT PUT A SMILE IN MY HEART BECAUSE THERE ARE ONLY A FEW GOOD JOURNALISTS OR GOOD PEOPLE OUT THERE AND I REALLY GAUGE THE WORLD YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON OR YOU'RE NOT.

LYNSEY, HER WORK, YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US.

I SAW YOU ARE A PARENT AND I AM A PARENT TOO AND YOU KNOW WHAT WE ARE STRIVING TO CREATE.

>> RIGHT.

>> SO YEAH.

THAT IS WHY I'M REALLY HAPPY TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH YOU.

>> WHAT A LOVELY COMMENT.

GOING BACK TO THE HARSHNESS OF WAR, LYNSEY I WANT TO SHOW PEOPLE A PHOTOGRAPH NOT FROM IRAQ BUT FROM UKRAINE AND GIVE PEOPLE A WARNING THAT IT IS GRAPHIC.

IT IS THAT FAMILY KILLED ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF KYIV BY RUSSIAN SHELLS.

THEIR BODIES ARE ON THE STREET.

MY QUESTION THOUGH IS HOW DO YOU STRIKE THE BALANCE AS YOU DO OF PORTRAYING THE HORROR BUT ALSO THE HUMAN DIGNITY, THE AGENCY OF THE VICTIMS WHICH THAT PHOTO DID.

HOW DO YOU STRIKE THAT BALANCE?

>> IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT MOMENT BECAUSE I MYSELF SURVIVED THAT ATTACK.

IT LANDED EQUI DISTANT BETWEEN US AND THE FAMILY AND THE FAMILY WAS KILLED.

THE MOTHER, HER TWO CHILDREN, AND THE CHURCH VOLUNTEER.

I WAS VERY MUCH IN SHOCK WHEN I WAS TAKING THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS.

I REMEMBER APPROACHING FROM THE, FROM THEIR FEET END AND SORT OF BEING HORRIFIED AND HAVING TO REMIND MYSELF TO ACTUALLY PHOTOGRAPH BECAUSE I WAS SO SHOCKED.

I WORKED MY WAY AROUND BECAUSE I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SO LONG I REALIZED I HAD TO TRY TO FIND A RESPECTFUL PHOTO THAT WASN'T TOO GRAPHIC THAT SHOWED WHAT I JUST WITNESSED WHICH WAS THE INTENTIONAL KILLING OF CIVILIANS.

IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SHOOT AND TRY TO SHOOT IN A WAY THAT WAS RESPECTFUL.

>> IT DID GIVE THEM AGENCY.

>> I FOUND IT FASCINATING, JUST BEFORE THE PROGRAM I READ YOU TOLD ONE OF OUR PRODUCERS YOU BECAME FRIENDS WITH U.S.

SOLDIERS WHO HAD BEEN IN IRAQ AND THAT YOU FOUND THEIR TRAUMA SIMILAR TO YOUR OWN.

YOU TALK ABOUT A HEALING PROCESS FOR REFUGEES FROM IRAQ AND OTHER PLACES FOR YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FRIENDS, YOURSELF.

TELL US ABOUT THAT.

>> WHEN I WAS AN UNDER GRAD WE WERE AT THE SAN FRANCISCO INSTITUTE AND THERE WERE MARINES WHO WENT THROUGH, YOU KNOW, SERVED AND WERE IN SCHOOL.

IT SEEMS THERE IS A WEIRD PLACE IN SOCIETY WHEN YOU COME BACK AND PEOPLE GRAVITATE TO EACH OTHER.

ONE OF MY CLOSE FRIENDS SERVED LIKE NINE YEARS AND WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT, LIKE, I'M NOT REALLY -- MY WORK IS NOT ABOUT LIKE IN THE JUDGING BUSINESS.

I ALWAYS SAY MY WORK IS TO PUT IMAGES FORWARD AND TO HAVE A CONVERSATION.

AND YOU REALLY, WHEN WAR IS WAGED, IT IS NOT RICH PEOPLE GOING AGAINST EACH OTHER.

YOU KNOW?

IT IS PEOPLE TRYING TO EAT AND TRYING TO LIVE.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE MORE IN COMMON WITH PEOPLE AFTER, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE DUST SETTLES.

YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION AND TALK ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES AND MOST OF THE TIME, YOU KNOW, VETERANS I SPOKE WITH WHETHER IN THE ARMY OR MARINE CORPS, MOST DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO BE THERE.

YOU KNOW?

AND THE SAME, IT IS LIKE HOW DO YOU PROCESS THAT WHEN ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TOLD YOU I'M SORRY.

I DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.

ORDERS.

>> I WILL TELL YOU I FOUND THAT FASCINATING MYSELF FROM GOING UP AT THE BEGINNING AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS WANTED TO BE THERE AND THEN YOU KNOW GOING THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX, SEVEN YEARS LATER THEY DID NOT WANT TO BE THERE.

LYNSEY AND ANOTHER WARNING TO VIEWERS BEFORE THE NEXT QUESTION BECAUSE A COUPLE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS ARE QUITE VIVID BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS.

SO MANY OF YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS ACHIEVE ALMOST ICONIC STATUS FOR THE POWER AND HOW THEY TELL THE STORY.

MANY OF IRAQIS OF COURSE BUT CRUCIALLY IN IRAQ YOU SHOT A LOT OF AMERICAN WOUNDED WHICH SERVED THE PURPOSE TOO OF STARKLY REMINDING AMERICANS AT HOME OF THE COST OF THE WAR.

WHAT WAS THE REACTION TO THAT?

WHAT DID YOU HOPE THE REACTION WAS FOR THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS IN PARTICULAR?

>> WELL, THE IRONY WAS I SHOT THAT STORY FOR "LIFE" MAGAZINE.

IT WAS COMMISSIONED BY "LIFE" MAGAZINE DURING THE SIEGE OF FALLUJAH IN NOVEMBER OF 2004.

WE HAD THIS INCREDIBLE EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO THE HOSPITAL WHERE ALL OF THE WOUNDED MARINES AND SOLDIERS WERE COMING OUT AND BEING TREATED.

I SHOT FOR ABOUT FIVE DAYS AND THEN FLEW WITH THE WOUNDED BACK TO RAMSTEIN IN GERMANY FOR TREATMENT AND SENT THE PHOTOGRAPHS TO "LIFE" MAGAZINE AND THEY HELD THEM ALMOST FOUR MONTHS AND FINALLY I GOT A MESSAGE SAYING THEY WOULD NEVER PUBLISH THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

YOU CAN IMAGINE MY RESPONSE AFTER HAVING COVERED IRAQ FOR ALMOST TWO STRAIGHT YEARS AT THAT POINT.

THE AMERICANS NEEDED TO SEE THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THE MARINES I PHOTOGRAPHED WERE SO PROUD TO BE PHOTOGRAPHED FOR THAT PIECE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT WAS REALLY UNBELIEVABLE BUT LUCKILY THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE, KATHY RYAN, SHE TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHS IMMEDIATELY AND WAS ABLE TO GET THEM PUBLISHED.

>> YEAH.

I REMEMBER RUNNING UP AGAINST SOME WALLS TRYING TO DO A STORY WITH THE MEDEVAC UNITS.

GOT TO DO THE STORY BUT THERE WERE A TON OF RULES ON THAT.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU, YOU'RE IN THE U.S. NOW BUT AFTER 20 YEARS AFTER THE WAR BEGAN WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES FOR YOUR COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE?

>> I MEAN, MY HOPE IS FOR, LIKE, EVERYBODY.

THAT I MEAN PEACE, STABILITY, YOU KNOW, FREEDOM TO VOTE, FREEDOM OF MOBILITY.

EQUAL RIGHTS FOR EVERYBODY.

THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.

YOU WANT ALL THESE THINGS AND I THINK IRAQ IS CAPABLE OF REACHING IT.

I DON'T REALLY HAVE HIGH HOPES IN POLITICS THERE BUT I THINK I HAVE A LOT OF FAITH IN THE PEOPLE AND THE YOUNGER GENERATION STRIVING FOR CHANGE AND I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO NURTURE AND BE PART OF IT AND HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS.

IRAQ CAN'T SUSTAIN.

IRAQ HAS BEEN AT WAR SINCE I WAS BORN SINCE THE '80s, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GET TIRED.

PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE AT WAR.

I NEVER MET A HUMAN BEING WHO SAID I WANT TO BE AT WAR.

IT'S NOT NATURAL.

>> NO, EXACTLY.

I COULD TALK TO YOU GUYS FOR THE ENTIRE PROGRAM.

IT IS AN HONOR TO SPEAK TO YOU.

TWO ENORMOUSLY TALENTED PEOPLE.

THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU DO.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WE TURN TO MEXICO AND NOW TO A HARROWING EPIDEMIC, MISSING PEOPLE.

MORE THAN A HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE HAVE DISAPPEARED IN MEXICO, AN UNDER STATEMENT PROBABLY.

THE RECENT KIDNAPPING OF FOUR AMERICANS ONCE AGAIN BROUGHT THE ISSUE INTO FOCUS BUT THE QUICK RESPONSE BY AUTHORITIES HAS LEFT SOME QUESTIONING WHETHER MEXICANS THEMSELVES ARE FORGOTTEN.

AND IT COMES AS THE COUNTRY CONTINUES OF COURSE TO BE PLAGUED BY CARTEL VIOLENCE.

LET'S DIG INTO THESE ISSUES NOW WITH OUR GUEST JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR DOING SO.

AMERICANS GETTING KIDNAPPED WILL ALWAYS GET ATTENTION BUT MEXICO'S NATIONAL DATA BASE OF MISSING AND UNLOCATED PERSONS CURRENTLY LISTS MORE THAN 112,000 MEXICANS AS DISAPPEARED.

MANY SAY THE NUMBER IS ACTUALLY WAY HIGHER.

AND OF COURSE MANY UNDOCUMENTED RESIDENTS IN MEXICO ARE ROUTINELY TAKEN FOR TRAFFICKING.

HOW DO THE CARTELS IMPACT LIVES OF ORDINARY MEXICANS?

>> MEXICO HAS BEEN SUFFERING A CRISIS OF VIOLENCE AND PEOPLE DISAPPEARING SINCE THE LAST 20 YEARS, MORE THAN 20 YEARS.

ACCORDING TO OFFICIAL DATA, MORE THAN 10,000 PEOPLE ARE STILL DISAPPEARED.

AND THIS IS NOT EVEN THE WORST PLACE IN MEXICO WITH THE DISAPPEARANCE CRISIS.

MEXICO RIGHT NOW IS THE DEADLIEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TO BE A JOURNALIST, EVEN WORSE THAN ALL THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD LIKE UKRAINE AND THIS IS OFFICIAL DATA WE RECEIVED FROM REPORTERS WITHOUT BORDERS.

SO YOU HAVE A COUNTRY WHERE THE VIOLENCE IS LIKE THE WAY THAT WE OPERATE AND WE LIVE EVERY DAY.

TEN WOMEN ARE KILLED IN MEXICO EVERY DAY.

YOU SEE THAT MORE THAN 30,000 PEOPLE ARE KILLED EVERY YEAR.

LAST YEAR FOR EXAMPLE THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT WAS SAYING OH, WE MANAGED TO REDUCE BY 6%, 7% THE DEATH RATE, BUT THAT IS STILL MORE THAN 30,000 PEOPLE FOR YEARS.

AND WE HAVE BEEN HAVING THIS SAME HERB UNITE SINCE -- PARTICULARLY SINCE 2003-2004, MORE AFTER 2006-2007 WHEN MEXICO DECLARED THE SO-CALLED WAR ON DRUGS THAT HAS NO RESULTS SO FAR.

MORE VIOLENCE AND MORE VIOLENCE IN THE MEXICO SIDE AND IN THE U.S. YOU HAVE MORE PEOPLE DYING FROM OVERDOSES BECAUSE THE WAR ON DRUGS IS AGAINST THE TRAFFICKING BUT THE DRUGS ARE STILL COMING.

>> I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

YOU BRING ME TO THE QUESTION VERY NEATLY THE DRUG SIDE OF THIS.

I KNOW YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT CARTEL INVOLVEMENT IN FENTANYL WHICH IS OF COURSE A HUGE STORY IN THE U.S. AND FENTANYL MANUFACTURE AND DISTRIBUTION.

THE PRESIDENT, THOUGH, HAS BEEN SAYING IT IS NOT PRODUCED IN MEXICO.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT IT YESTERDAY.

LET'S LISTEN.

>> Translator: MEXICO IS NOT THE COUNTRY THAT INTRODUCES THE MOST FENTANYL INTO THE UNITED STATES.

I MAINTAIN THAT MORE FENTANYL REACHES THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA DIRECTLY THAN REACHES MEXICO.

>> YOU'VE REPORTED ON THIS.

I KNOW YOU'LL DISAGREE WITH THAT.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND?

AND ALSO TALK ABOUT HOW WELL STRUCTURED THE CARTELS ARE, HOW ORGANIZED THEIR CHAINS OF COMMAND.

>> WELL, I ASKED THE SAME QUESTION ABOUT THE FENTANYL LABS TO THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT MYSELF IN 2019 AND HE SAID OH, WE DON'T HAVE LABS IN MEXICO.

I WAS WORKING THEN IN AN INVESTIGATION ABOUT THE FENTANYL PRODUCTION IN MEXICO AND I WAS IN A LABORATORY MYSELF.

THEN HE IS TELLING ME OH, WE DON'T HAVE LABS IN MEXICO.

WELL, I WAS IN ONE OF THEM.

AND AFTER ME SEVERAL OTHER JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTING HOW MEXICO HAS BECOME MORE PROTAGANIST ABOUT THE FENTANYL PRODUCTION AND THERE IS AN IMPORTANT CONTEXT.

BEFORE MEXICO BECAME SUCH AN IMPORTANT PLACE FOR THE PRODUCTION OF FENTANYL, THIS WAS HAPPENING IN ANOTHER PLACE OF THE WORLD THAT WE NOW KNOW REALLY WELL WHICH IS WUHAN, CHINA EXACTLY THE PLACE WHERE THE COVID PANDEMIC STARTED.

SO AFTER THE SHUTDOWNS IN CHINA DURING THE PANDEMIC ALL THE PRODUCTION WAS MOVED TO OTHER PLACES ESPECIALLY TO MEXICO BECAUSE THERE YOU WERE RECEIVING A LOT OF THE SMALL PARTS THAT YOU WILL USE AND THEN YOU WILL PRODUCE IT THERE.

IT IS CRAZY YOU HAVE THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT SAYING THERE ARE NOT FENTANYL LABS AND YOU HAVE THE JOURNALISTS DOCUMENTING THIS AND THEN YOU HAVE OFFICIAL DATA FROM HIS OWN GOVERNMENT SAYING THAT OH, WE CAPTURED ANOTHER LABORATORY.

WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS INTELLIGENCE WORK.

SO IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

>> SO WHAT THEN IS THE GOVERNMENT EFFECTIVELY DOING ABOUT THE CARTELS?

FOR AN OUTSIDER IT IS EASY TO THINK WHO IS REALLY RUNNING THE COUNTRY?

OBVIOUSLY THESE GROUPS FEEL THEY CAN ACT WITH IMPUNITY.

THEY DO.

FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY WILLIAM BARR RECENTLY DESCRIBED THE PRESIDENT OF MEXICO AS THE CARTEL'S CHIEF ENABLER.

DOES HE HAVE A POINT?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU CAN SEE IN THE LAST YEARS IN MEXICO THAT THE PRESIDENT OF MEXICO HAD BEEN CHANGING THE WAY HE WAS APPROACHING THIS ISSUE.

WHEN HE WAS IN CAMPAIGN HE SAID THAT HE WILL END THIS SO-CALLED WAR ON DRUGS AND HE POPULARIZED THIS SAYING OF OH, I DON'T WANT ANY MORE BULLETS.

AFTER THAT YOU SEE HIS ADMINISTRATION ANNOUNCING WE CAPTURED THIS PERSON BUT EFFECTIVELY ACCORDING TO DATA FROM THE U.N.

THE MEXICAN CARTELS ARE STILL LAUNDERING MORE THAN $25 BILLION PER YEAR.

SO IF YOU GO TO THE NUMBERS AND THE DATA YOU STILL SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE DYING IN MEXICO BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE.

YOU SEE THE CARTELS LAUNDERING ALL OF THIS MONEY.

YOU STILL SEE MEXICO AS ONE OF THE FIVE MORE CORRUPT PLACES IN AMERICA, ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT PLACES IN THE WORLD.

YOU STILL SEE ALL THE DANGERS OF BEING A JOURNALIST.

YOU SEE ALL THE DRUGS COMING INTO THE UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE AN OVERDOSE CRISIS IN THE UNITED STATES.

MOST OF THOSE DRUGS, AND THAT IS OFFICIAL DATA, THAT ARE COMING STILL FROM MEXICO VIA COLOMBIA, VIA SOUTH AMERICA, BUT ALSO VIA CHINA TO MEXICO AND THEN TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> AND IN THE BROADER PICTURE, THE PRESIDENT OF MEXICO AS YOU SAY BEGAN HIS PRESIDENCY PROMISING TO DEFEND THE POOR AND AND CRUCIALLY STRENGTHEN DEMOCRACY BUT WHAT HAS ACTUALLY HAPPENED?

YOU SPOKE OF EFFORTS TO SILENCE CRITICS INCLUDING YOURSELF THAT ARE ERODING DEMOCRATIC CHECKS AND BALANCES?

WHERE IS DEMOCRACY?

>> WELL THE THING IS IN MEXICO YOU HAVE A STRONG PARTY.

THAT IS LOPEZ OBSERADOR'S PARTY.

THE OPPOSITION PARTY IS KIND OF LOST.

THEY DON'T HAVE A STRONG CANDIDATE.

SO HIS PARTY IS GROWING AND GROWING AND YOU SEE MORE POWER, MORE POWER TO THE MILITARY.

YOU SEE MORE POWER TO THE MARINES AND AT THE SAME TIME YOU SEE HIM TAKING ACTIONS THAT REALLY ARE -- FOR EXAMPLE YOU SAW IN MEXICO IN THE LAST WEEKS WE HAVE BEEN SEEING IT AGAINST A REFORM HE IS INTRODUCING IN THE ELECTORAL LAW THAT WILL PUT IN AN AWKWARD POSITION THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION THAT ORGANIZES THE ELECTIONS IN MEXICO AND THE MEXICANS ARE REALLY PROUD OF THIS INSTITUTE AND THE WORK THIS INSTITUTE HAS DONE FOR THE MEXICAN DEMOCRACY.

AND YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENT TRYING TO UNDERMINE OPENLY THE OPERATION OF THIS INSTITUTE.

YOU HAVE THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT TALKING OUT LOUD AGAINST SOME JUDGES BECAUSE THEY ARE STOPPING THINGS HE IS TRYING TO DO.

YOU SEE A LOT OF THINGS WE HAVE SEEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE OF COURSE RED FLAGS INCLUDING IN THE UNITED STATES DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SO RIGHT NOW I THINK THAT YOU HAVE AN OPPOSITION IN MEXICO THAT IS QUITE NOT GETTING WHAT THEY NEED TO DO AND AT THE SAME TIME HAVE MORE AND MORE CITIZENS SAYING OKAY.

YOU AREN'T REALLY POPULAR.

IT IS TRUE WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF OTHER OPTIONS BUT THESE THINGS YOU ARE DOING ARE JUST NOT RIGHT.

>> SPEAK TO THE LEVEL, YOU KNOW, OF CORRUPTION, WHICH WORRIES A LOT OF PEOPLE IN MEXICO.

ACCORDING TO THE NONGOVERNMENTAL GROUP MEXICANS AGAINST CORRUPTION AND IMPUNITY, THREE OF FOUR PROJECTS ARE AWARDED WITH NO COMPETING BIDS.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS BEING FLOUTED ON ANY NUMBER OF CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS.

YOU HAVE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE NOT BEING CONSULTED AS THE LAW DEMANDS.

HOW DEEP DO YOU BELIEVE CORRUPTION RUNS?

>> WELL, I HAVE BEEN AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER ALL MY CAREER AND MORE OF THE CLUES WE HAVE TO FOLLOW CORRUPTION IN GOVERNMENTS ARE ESPECIALLY THOSE BIDS BUT IF YOU JUST ASSIGN THE CONTRACT TO WHOEVER YOU LIKE, SOMETIMES YOUR OWN FRIENDS, WE HAVE DONE DOCUMENTARIES HOW THEY USE THIS IN MEXICO AND OTHER PLACES TO HIDE WHO ARE THE REAL BENEFIT, THE PEOPLE BENEFITING FROM THESE CONTRACTS.

AT THE SAME TIME YOU HAVE ALL THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED.

YOU HAVE A LOT OF -- A LOT WHO WILL HELP IF YOU ARE BUILDING A TRAIN, BUILDING A BIG TRAIN TO GO TO THE RIVIERA MAYA BUT YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE AND THEIR VOICE IS UNHEARD.

EVERY TIME YOU TRY TO DOCUMENT THIS AS A JOURNALIST, AS YOU SAID, INCLUDING MYSELF, YOU ARE TARGETED IN THIS DAILY CONFERENCE THAT HE HAS AND THEN YOU GET A LOT OF HATE IN SOCIAL MEDIA AND OTHER PLACES AND IT IS LIKE OH, YOU ARE LYING OR THIS KIND OF STRATEGY WE HAVE SEEN HERE AND SEEN IN OTHER PLACES THAT FINALLY IS UNDERMINING THE DEMOCRACY.

>> AND THAT IS THE SORT OF TALK THAT IN MEXICO GETS JOURNALISTS KILLED AS WELL AS YOU POINTED OUT.

WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT BUT TO MAKE THE POINT, THE ECONOMIST INTELLIGENCE UNIT INDEX ON DEMOCRACY, THEY SURVEY 165 NATIONS, A VARIETY OF CRITERIA.

THEY RECENTLY DOWN GRADED MEXICO FROM FLAWED DEMOCRACY TO HYBRID REGIME.

CNN'S OWN FAREED ZAKARIA DESCRIBED AMLO AS A POPULIST DEM GOG STRAIGHT OUT OF MEXICAN HISTORY.

IS MEXICO'S DEMOCRACY IN PERIL?

IS IT THAT BAD?

>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THIS ELECTORAL REFORM.

I MUST SAY I WAS BORN IN CUBA BEFORE I MOVED TO MEXICO SO I SEE RED FLAGS.

FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE NOT ONLY AS A JOURNALIST.

IT IS TRUE MEXICO IS CLOSE TO THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT, CLOSE TO THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT, KIND OF CLOSE TO RUSSIA.

SO I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THOSE SIGNS AND SEE THOSE FLAGS AND THE FACT THAT SOMETHING IS HAPPENING IN THE CONTINENT IN THE SUBCONTINENT OF LATIN AMERICA AND WE SHOULD SEE HOW THIS IS STRUCTURIZED BY THE LAWS AND THE LAWS APPROVED IN MEXICO AND IN DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW IN THE MEXICAN CONGRESS COULD BE REALLY WORRYING.

>> PENILEY RAMIREZ, MY GOODNESS.

GREAT TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

THANK YOU FOR MAKING THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WELL NOW TO TACKLE COMPLICATED AND CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS IN CLASS.

WE SHOULD ALL WANT TO BE DOING THAT.

EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY HOW DO YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION THAT COULD END IN AGREEING TO DISAGREE?

OUR NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN LIVING THAT DILEMMA AND HIS STORY IS UNIQUE BECAUSE HE IS A BLACK PROFESSOR WHO WANTED TO CHALLENGE HIS STUDENTS' PRECONCEPTIONS ABOUT RACISM AND IT DID NOT END WELL.

PROFESSOR VINCENT LLOYD SPOKE WITH MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT HIS ARTICLE "A BLACK PROFESSOR TRAPPED IN ANTI-RACIST HELL."

>> PROFESSOR VINCENT LLOYD, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO YOU WROTE A PIECE FOR AN ESSAY FOR COMPACT MAGAZINE WHICH THE ATLANTIC LATER PICKED UP AND YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THEM ABOUT IT.

IT WAS TITLED "A BLACK PROFESSOR TRAPPED IN ANTI-RACIST HELL."

AND YOU GIVE YOUR ACCOUNT OF A REALLY, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT.

BRACING, DISTURBING EXPERIENCE YOU HAD TEACHING A SEMINAR, "RACE AND THE LIMITS OF LAW IN AMERICA" A CLASS OF HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS.

IT WAS PART OF A SUMMER PROGRAM AT TELLURIDE.

YOU TAUGHT THERE BEFORE BUT NOT FOR SOMETIME.

SO BEFORE WE GET INTO THE SUBSTANCE OF YOUR ESSAY, JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY SOME PEOPLE MIGHT BE SURPRISED THAT YOU ARE THE PERSON WRITING AN ESSAY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE ANTIRACIST HELL.

>> YES.

I AM A PROFESSOR AT VILLANOVA.

I AM AFFILIATED WITH THE AFRICANA STUDIES PROGRAM.

I DIRECTED OUR BLACK STUDIES PROGRAM FOR A FEW YEARS HERE.

MY RESEARCH FOCUSES ON ANTIBLACKNESS IN RELIGION AND PHILOSOPHY AND I HAVE BEEN WRITING BOOKS AND ARTICLES AROUND THIS TOPIC FOR A LONG TIME.

THE FOCUS OF THIS COURSE I WAS TEACHING FOR TELLURIDE WAS RACE AND THE LIMITS OF LAW WITH FOUR OF THE SIX WEEKS FOCUSED ON ANTI-BLACKNESS.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE STUDENTS.

WHO WERE THEY IN THIS SEMINAR?

>> YEAH.

SO THIS IS A HIGHLY SELECTIVE PROGRAM.

THESE ARE THE BEST OF THE BEST HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS FROM AROUND THE U.S. AND FROM BEYOND THE U.S. STUDENTS WHO ARE ON A TRACK TO IVY LEAGUE COLLEGES.

>> AND YOU HAD TAUGHT THAT CLASS OR SIMILAR CLASS BEFORE, RIGHT?

TELL ME WHAT THE EXPERIENCE HAD BEEN.

>> YES.

SO I TAUGHT, COTAUGHT A VERSION OF THE CLASS IN 2014 AT CORNELL AND THEN AGAIN IN 2022 AT UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN THROUGH THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION PROGRAM.

WE READ LEGAL PIECES FROM DREAD SCOTT AND BROWN VS. BOARD OF EDUCATION TO MORE RECENT CASES ON IMMIGRATION AND MASS INCARCERATION AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

WE ALSO READ NOVELS, MEMOIRS, SHORT STORIES, CRITICAL THEORY, AND HISTORIES THAT COULD GIVE US A THREE DIMENSIONAL VIEW OF PROBLEMS OF ANTI-BLACKNESS AND RELATED ISSUES OF OPPRESSION IN THE U.S. TODAY.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE SEMINAR FORMAT.

WHAT HAD YOU HOPED TO DO?

THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

>> YEAH.

SO UNLIKE A LECTURE COURSE WHERE THE PROFESSOR IS JUST CONVEYING INFORMATION TO THE STUDENTS, A SEMINAR IS BASED ON THE BELIEF THAT EACH OF US CAN APPROACH A TEXT WITH OUR OWN EXPERIENCES, OUR OWN CRITICAL READING SKILLS AND THROUGH PUSHING AGAINST EACH OTHER THROUGH SHARING OUR IDEAS AND BOUNCING OFF IN CONVERSATION OUR IDEAS AGAINST OTHERS' IDEAS, NEW KNOWLEDGE CAN BE PRODUCED.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I DID THIS IN 2014 IT WAS A FRUITFUL AND REWARDING DISCUSSION.

EACH DAY THERE WAS SOME AWKWARDNESS.

THESE ARE 16 AND 17-YEAR-OLDS.

SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING THINGS THAT WERE CLEARLY OFF BUT THROUGH THE PROCESS OF CONVERSATION WE COULD THINK MORE DEEPLY TOGETHER AND MOVE TOWARD A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WE WERE READING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN AGAIN IN 2022.

>> IN YOUR RECOUNTING THIS WENT WAY OFF THE RAILS.

I MEAN, FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE.

OBVIOUSLY WE'RE JUST GETTING YOUR POINT OF VIEW ON THIS BUT WHEN DID YOU START TO SEE THINGS KIND OF GO OFF THE RAILS?

AT LEAST IN YOUR ESTIMATION OF IT?

>> THE FIRST WEEK OF THE SEMINAR WAS ON THINKING ABOUT THE GENOCIDE OF NATIVE AMERICANS AND CONTINUING EFFECTS OF THAT ON NATIVE COMMUNITIES IN THE U.S. AT THE END OF THE FIRST WEEK THE TEACHING ASSISTANT ALSO A SORT OF CAMP COUNSELOR COORDINATING THE 21 HOURS OF THE STUDENTS' LIVES OUTSIDE OF THE SEMINAR CAME TO ME AND SAID, IT SEEMS LIKE WE'RE MISSING SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT IN THE SEMINAR.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ANTI-BLACKNESS.

I TRIED TO POINT TO THE SYLLABUS.

WE HAVE FOUR WEEKS COMING UP ON ANTI-BLACKNESS.

SHE KEPT INSISTING THAT SOMETHING WAS OFF IF WE WERE SPENDING A WEEK ON INJUSTICES SUFFERED BY NATIVE AMERICANS.

THAT WAS THE FIRST WEEK.

BY THE SECOND WEEK WE WERE TRYING TO DO A MOCK COURT, AN EXERCISE WHERE STUDENTS ARE DIVIDED INTO TEAMS.

SOME ARE LAWYERS FOR ONE SIDE.

SOME OF THEM ARE LAWYERS FOR ANOTHER SIDE.

WE'RE TRYING TO SEE WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE A LAWYER?

DOES LAW REALLY GET TO JUSTICE OR IS THERE SOMETHING MISSING IF YOU'RE ADJUDICATING QUESTIONS OF JUSTICE IN A COURT?

BY THE END OF THAT THE STUDENTS WERE AGAIN COMPLAINING THAT THEY WERE FORCED TO INHABIT THE POSITION EVEN JUST IN THIS EXERCISE OF SIDES THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN EVEN IF IT WAS JUST FOR THE PURPOSE OF LEARNING THE LOGIC OF THEIR OPPONENTS.

>> YOU REALLY DO DESCRIBE, THE WAY YOU TALK ABOUT IT IS LIKE THIS ANTI-RACIST HELL THIS KIND OF HOT HOUSE ATMOSPHERE OF JUST ACCUSATIONS AND UNKINDNESS.

LET ME JUST READ A LITTLE BIT.

THE ALLEGATIONS LEVIED.

I HAD USED RACIST LANGUAGE.

I HAS MISGENDERED BRITTNEY GRINER.

I REPEATEDLY CONFUSED THE NAMES OF TWO BLACK STUDENTS.

MY BODY LANGUAGE HARMED THEM.

I HADN'T CORRECTED FACTS THAT WERE HARMFUL TO HEAR WHEN THE NOW PURGED STUDENTS INTRODUCED THEM IN CLASS.

YOU'RE SAYING THEY ACTUALLY KICKED OUT OR VOTED TO KICK OUT TWO STUDENTS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T LIKE WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY.

I INVITED THEM TO THINK ABOUT THE REASONING OF BOTH SIDES OF AN ARGUMENT WHEN ONLY ONE SIDE WAS CORRECT.

THE STUDENTS ENDED WITH A DEMAND IN LIGHT OF ALL THE HARMS THEY HAD SUFFERED THEY COULD ONLY CONTINUE IN THE CLASS IF I ABANDONED THE SEMINAR FORMAT AND INSTEAD LECTURED EACH DAY ABOUT ANTI-BLACKNESS CORRECTING ANY OF THEM WHO QUESTIONED ORTHODOXY, LIKE WOW.

OKAY.

WOW.

HOW DID THIS, WAS THIS ALL PRESENTED LIKE ON ONE DAY?

>> YES, ON THE VERY FINAL DAY WE MET TOGETHER THE STUDENTS ALL CAME IN ABOUT TEN MINUTES AFTER THE CLASS WAS SUPPOSED TO START.

THEY WERE ALL CARRYING A PIECE OF PAPER THAT HAD A VERY LONG STATEMENT WRITTEN ON IT.

EACH OF THEM READ IN SEQUENCE A PARAGRAPH FROM THIS STATEMENT AND THAT WAS THAT.

>> SO HOW FAR INTO THE SEMINAR WAS THIS BEFORE THE STUDENTS KIND OF PRESENTED YOU WITH THIS MANIFESTO?

>> AT THE START OF THE FIFTH WEEK OF THE SIX-WEEK SEMINAR.

>> OKAY.

SO WHAT DID YOU DO?

>> YEAH, SO I -- MY CO-INSTRUCTOR AND I SAID WE HAD TO THINK ABOUT THIS.

AND AS SOON AS WE LEFT WE TALKED TO THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP AND SAID, THIS DOESN'T SEEM SUSTAINABLE.

WE NEED THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP TO COMMUNICATE TO THESE STUDENTS AND TO THE TEACHING ASSISTANT THAT THESE -- THE FACULTY TEAM HAS BEEN CONTRACTED TO TEACH A COLLEGE LEVEL SEMINAR.

THIS IS WHAT A COLLEGE LEVEL SEMINAR LOOKS LIKE.

WE HAVE FAITH IN THESE INSTRUCTORS TO TEACH THIS.

>> YOU DIDN'T GO FROM WEEK ONE EVERYBODY SHOWING UP TO THE SEMINAR AND THEN ENDING WEEK FIVE PEOPLE JUST NOT SHOWING UP OR PRESENTING YOU WITH THIS MANIFESTO.

WHAT HAPPENED IN BETWEEN?

LIKE WHAT WAS GOING ON BEFORE YOU WERE PRESENTED WITH THIS?

>> YES, SO EACH WEEK THERE WAS SOME OTHER INCIDENT THAT STUDENTS WOULD RAISE THAT THEY FOUND CONCERNING.

FOR EXAMPLE WHEN WE WERE DISCUSSING BROWN VS.

THE BOARD OF EDUCATION, THE SUPREME COURT CASE THAT ENDED SCHOOL SEGREGATION IN THE U.S., ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF THAT CASE WAS PSYCHOLOGISTS ASKING STUDENTS, DO YOU SEE THIS AS WHITE, COLORED, OR NEGRO AND THE STUDENTS IN MY SEMINAR CLAIMED THEY WERE HARMED BY HEARING THE WORD NEGRO, WHICH, YOU KNOW, I FRAMED AS, YOU KNOW, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CLASS AS SAYING WE'LL ENCOUNTER CONTROVERSIAL LANGUAGE.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT.

IF YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WE CAN HAVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHY WE MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT USE DIFFERENT LANGUAGE BUT THE REACTION OF BEING HARMED AND NEEDING TO IMMEDIATELY STOP EVERYTHING AND NAME THAT HARM AS CREATING AN UNSAFE SPACE MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A REGULAR SEMINAR.

>> WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN ALL OF THIS WAS GOING ON?

>> I WAS THINKING BACK TO THE, WHAT I READ ABOUT THE '60s AND '70s WHEN THERE WERE REALLY POWERFUL, IMPORTANT CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENTS AND MOVEMENTS AGAINST THE VIETNAM WAR AND QUICKLY TURNED INTO MOVEMENTS THAT HAD CULT-LIKE CHARACTERISTICS, MOVEMENTS THAT WERE TURNING IN ON THEMSELVES, AND WERE NO LONGER PURSUING JUSTICE IN THE WORLD BUT WERE SORT OF EATING THEMSELVES WITH THE LANGUAGE OF THE PURSUIT OF JUSTICE.

>> HOW DID THE WHOLE THING END UP?

>> SO I TOLD THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP EITHER YOU COME AND INTERVENE AND EXPLAIN WHAT THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION HAS ASKED ME TO DO TO THE STUDENTS OR, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T CONTINUE IN THIS SEMINAR.

IT IS NOT A SEMINAR ANYMORE.

THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP, BELIEVING IN RADICAL DEMOCRACY, BELIEVING THE STUDENTS IN THEIR AUTONOMOUS COMMUNITY SHOULD GET TO CHOOSE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT, EVEN IF IT IS A FAILURE THEY'LL LEARN FOR NEXT YEAR THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP DECIDED NOT TO INTERVENE.

I UNDERSTAND IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS THE TEACHING ASSISTANT BASICALLY LECTURED HERSELF EACH DAY FOR THE FINAL TWO WEEKS.

>> HUM.

OKAY.

SO YOU KNOW WHAT?

YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT PEOPLE HEARING THIS HAVE HAD QUITE A RANGE OF REACTIONS TO WHAT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED.

I AM KIND OF GOING BACK TO THE FACT THESE ARE 16 AND 17-YEAR-OLD KIDS AND YOU'RE THE ADULT AND I'M JUST WONDERING IF YOU THOUGHT THIS WAS BECOMING CULT-LIKE WHY DIDN'T YOU INTERVENE?

WHY DID YOU LET IT GO ON FOR SO LONG?

>> YES.

SO I BELIEVE IN THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION MISSION.

HAVING DEMOCRATIC COMMUNITY THAT IS SELF-GOVERNING OF STUDENTS IS REALLY EXCITING.

IF I WERE 16 OR 17 I WOULD WANT TO BE IN THAT KIND OF COMMUNITY.

AND THAT COMMUNITY, THAT KIND OF COMMUNITY BRINGS RISKS AND IT IS UP TO THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION TO MANAGE THOSE RISKS AND WHEN THINGS START TO GO OFF THE RAILS TO MAKE, CREATE BUMPERS SO THAT THINGS DON'T BECOME HORRIBLY CULT-LIKE AS THEY SEEMED TO IN THIS CASE.

SO THE IDEA, THE SPIRIT OF THE THING STRIKES ME AS REALLY IMPORTANT.

WE SHOULD BE EMPOWERING STUDENTS TO FIGURE OUT, EMPOWERING YOUNG PEOPLE TO FEGIGURE OUT HOW TO LE TOGETHER.

THAT IS SOMETHING THEY'LL DO THROUGH THEIR LIVES AND NOT TO TURN TO OUTSIDE AUTHORITIES AS GUIDES TO TELL THEM HOW TO LIVE.

>> OBVIOUSLY YOU WROTE THIS PIECE NOT JUST BECAUSE YOU HAD A PARTICULARLY DISTURBING AND UNPLEASANT EXPERIENCE.

BUT BECAUSE YOU FEEL IT SAYS SOMETHING LARGER.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS EXPERIENCE SAYS?

>> I THINK AS A NATION AND AS UNIVERSITIES AND EDUCATORS WE ARE AT A MOMENT OF A PARADYM SHIFT.

WE'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT RACE IN ONE WAY IN TERMS OF MULTI CULTURALISM AND MANY RACES AND COMMUNITIES GETTING ALONG OR ON THE PATH TO GETTING ALONG AND THEN THANKFULLY BLACK JUSTICE MOVEMENT SAID YOU'RE MISSING SOMETHING.

THERE IS REALLY DEEP ANTIBLACKNESS IN THIS NATION IN COMMUNITIES IN OURSELVES THAT WE NEED TO ROOT OUT.

WE ARE AT A MOMENT OF PARADIGM SHIFT AND IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT IS COMING NEXT, WHAT NEW HABITS OR INSTITUTIONS THAT CENTER ANTI-BLACKNESS LOOK LIKE.

WE ARE EXPERIMENTING IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND WE NEED TO BE CRITICAL AND SEE WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T AND THIS TELLURIDE EXAMPLE IS ONE THAT DIDN'T WORK BUT IT JUST MEANS WE SHOULD TRY HARDER, TRY NEW EXPERIMENTS BECAUSE WE CAN'T GO BACK TO THE OLD PARADIGM.

THE KIND OF STORY I RECOUNT IS ONE I HEAR OVER AND OVER FROM COLLEAGUES PARTICULARLY AT LIBERAL ARTS CLENGS, SOME PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS.

IT IS NOT JUST ONE EXTREME CASE THAT HAPPENED IN EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES ALTHOUGH THE CIRCUMSTANCES CERTAINLY INTENSIFIED THE DYNAMIC BUT IT IS SOMETHING I DO HEAR HAPPENING IN VARIOUS VERSIONS FROM COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU DRAW FROM THIS IS YOU SAID AT THE OUTSET OF YOUR ESSAY THAT YOU REALLY DISMISSED PEOPLE LIKE JOHN McWATER FOR EXAMPLE THE LINGUIST AND SOCIAL COMMENTATOR WHO'S BECOME VERY IMPASSIONED ABOUT WHAT HE SEES AS A KIND OF ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM, IDENTITY DRIVEN SORT OF SYSTEMS OF THINKING THAT HE THINKS HAVE JUST TAKEN OVER TOO MANY EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.

I GOT FROM YOUR ESSAY YOU WERE NOT VERY SYMPATHETIC TO THIS ARGUMENT AT FIRST BUT NOW YOU ARE.

>> RIGHT.

I THINK THE CONTENT IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

THE CONTENT OF THE SORT OF PREACCEPTS, THE THEORIES OF ANTIBLACKNESS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

STILL INFORMING AMERICAN SOCIETY, WE NEED TO LISTEN TO BLACK WOMEN, WE NEED TO EMPOWER BLACK COMMUNITIES TO HAVE SELF-DETERMINATION AND SO ON.

THIS IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

THE FORM IN WHICH WE PURSUE IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT.

WE CAN'T JUST SAY HERE ARE A SET OF DOGMAS AND NOW YOU NEED TO BELIEVE THIS.

IT NEEDS TO DEVELOP OVER TIME AND WE NEED TO DEVELOP INTO THESE COMMITMENTS.

THEY CAN'T JUST BE POUNDED ON US ESPECIALLY ON YOUNG FOLKS.

>> SAID THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WERE NOT INITIALLY VERY SYMPATHETIC TO BUT THEN IT HAPPENED TO YOU AND IT SOUNDS TO ME AS THOUGH YOU ARE QUESTIONING SOME OF THE SAME THINGS THE STUDENTS WERE.

WHAT IS THE SEMINAR?

WHAT IS IT FOR?

SHOULD YOU BE FORCED TO READ THINGS THAT ARE UPSETTING TO YOU THAT CHARACTERIZE YOUR ETHNICITY IN A CERTAIN LIGHT?

IS THAT ACCURATE THAT YOU'RE SORT OF NOW IN A THIRD PHASE OF THINKING WHAT DID REALLY HAPPEN HERE?

ARE THE STUDENTS RIGHT IN SOME WAY?

>> I THINK WE ALL OUGHT TO BE INTERROGATING OURSELVES AND TAKING THE EXPERIENCES WE HAVE TO ASK NEW QUESTIONS.

THAT IS WHAT THE SEMINAR WAS FOR WAS TO INVITE STUDENTS TO HEAR FROM OTHERS, THINK ABOUT THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES, THINK MORE DEEPLY ABOUT THE BELIEFS THEY ONCE HELD AND DEVELOP NEW BELIEFS.

I AM STILL A BELIEVER IN THE SEMINAR FORMAT.

I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES TO THE SEMINAR FORMAT WHICH SOME OF THE CHANGES I TRIED TO MAKE AS I WAS TEACHING IN 2022 AS OPPOSED TO 2014, THAT INVOLVED SMALL GROUP ACTIVITIES, PARTNER ACTIVITIES, THINGS TO ALLOW STUDENTS TO DEVELOP THEIR OWN VOICE IN A MORE PRIVATE CIRCUMSTANCE SO THEY COULD FEEL EMPOWERED WHEN WE ARE IN A BIG GROUP AND THOSE WHO MIGHT FEEL LESS COMFORTABLE SPEAKING OR ARE MORE SHY LIKE I AM DISPOSITIONALLY COULD FEEL MORE WILLING TO SPEAK IN THE BIG GROUP.

I THINK THE SEMINAR NEEDS TO EVOLVE.

BUT READING GREAT BOOKS TOGETHER WHETHER ANGELA DAVIS AND FREDERICK DOUGLASS OR PLATO, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT STUFF WE NEED TO DO AND CONTINUE DOING IN SMART WAYS.

>> THE REASON YOU WROTE THE ESSAY AND I THINK THE REASON PEOPLE ARE REACTING TO IT IS IT SPEAKS TO A LARGER DEBATE.

SO THE QUESTION IS, IS THERE SOMETHING IN THESE INSTITUTIONS MORE BROADLY THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED?

WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT OBVIOUSLY COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES THOUGH THEY ALL CAN HAVE THAT HOT HOUSE ATMOSPHERE YOU'VE DESCRIBED.

YOU KNOW, LOTS OF INSTITUTIONS SEEM TO FEEL THAT THEY ARE DEBATING, LIKE HOW, WHAT ARE THE TERMS OF OUR ENGAGEMENT?

WHO DECIDES WHAT THOSE TERMS ARE?

I GUESS THAT IS THE MAIN QUESTION GOING FORWARD FOR THE REST OF US WHO WERE NOT PART OF THIS PARTICULAR EXPERIENCE.

IS THERE SOMETHING WE NEED TO LEARN FROM THAT AND WHAT IS IT?

HOW DO YOU BALANCE ALLOWING NEW THOUGHTS TO EMERGE WITHOUT ALLOWING A NEW FORM OF SMUG SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS AND BULLYING TO TAKE OVER?

>> I THINK THIS IS A DIFFICULT QUESTION THEY WERE ALL GRAPPLING WITH IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

WE NEED STRONG INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE RESILIENT AND HAVE CLEAR ROLES AND CLEAR DUTIES ASSIGNED TO THE DIFFERENT ROLES BUT WE ALSO NEED TO DIFFERENTIATE SPACES WHERE WE'RE ASKING DIFFICULT QUESTIONS, SPACES WHERE WE CAN BE VULNERABLE AND FRUSTRATED FROM SPACES WHERE WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER, WHERE WE NEED TO PURSUE ONE GOAL, AND GET IN LINE TO GET THE GOAL DONE AND THEN I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE ARE HAVING RIGHT NOW CULTURALLY IS THERE IS A COLLAPSE OF THIS DIFFERENTIATION OF SPACES WHERE WE'RE THINKING EVERYWHERE WE NEED TO EITHER HAVE OPEN DISCUSSION OR JUST GET IN LINE AND BE ON THE SAME PAGE.

IN FACT, THESE ARE BOTH IMPORTANT.

THEY HAVE TO OPERATE IN DIFFERENT SORTS OF DOMAINS.

>> PROFESSOR VINCENT LLOYD, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> IN A STATEMENT FROM THE TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION ABOUT PROFESSOR LLOYD'S CLAIMS, THEY SAY IN PART AND I'LL JUST READ SOME OF IT FOR YOU THE STUDENTS IN THE SEMINAR ASKED PROFESSOR LLOYD AND HIS CO-FACULTY TO, QUOTE, ENGAGE CRITICALLY WITH POINTS RAISED DURING THE CLASSROOM DISCUSSION ADDING, QUOTE, THOUGH HARMFUL OR ERRONEOUS COMMENTS NEED TO BE ADDRESSED WE WANT TO LEAVE THE SEMINAR HAVING BEEN CHALLENGED, LEARNED THINGS, AND GAINED A NEW PERSPECTIVE.

AS FOR PROFESSOR LLOYD'S REQUEST TO TELLURIDE TO INTERVENE THEY SAID THIS, QUOTE, THE BOARD DECLINED TO DO SO AND INSTEAD ASKED PROFESSOR LLOYD TO WORK WITH THE TEACHING ASSISTANTS AND STUDENTS TO ADJUST HIS TEACHING TO MEET STUDENTS' NEEDS.

THIS PROCESS HAS WORKED SUCCESSFULLY WITH OUR OTHER FACULTY AND WITH PROFESSOR LLOYD IN HIS PAST WORK WITH TELLURIDE ASSOCIATION.

TELLURIDE ALSO SAYS THE CLAIM THAT TWO STUDENTS WERE VOTED OUT OF THE SEMINAR BY CLASSMATES IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

AND FINALLY, WHAT WAS ONCE A SYMBOL OF WEALTH AND POWER THESE D DAYS A BOAT THAT BELONGED TO SADDAM HASAN IS NOW A PICNIC SPOT.

IT HAS BEEN RUSTING AWAY ON THE RIVER BED EVER SINCE IT WAS ATTACKED BY U.S.

LED FORCES AND LAT LATER CAPSIZED ALMOST 20 YEARS AGO.

IT WAS ONE OF THREE YACHTS OWNED BY SADDAM WITH ROOM FOR 200 GUESTS COMPLETE WITH A HELIPAD.

THOUGH THERE WERE CALLS TO PRESERVE IT AFTER HIS DOWNFALL SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS NEVER WANTED TO SPEND THE MONEY ON RECOVERING IT OR REMOVING IT FOR THAT MATTER.

SO WHAT WAS ONCE AN EMBLEM OF SADDAM HUSSEIN'S ILL-GOTTEN GAINS AND EXCESSES IS NOW A HANDY SPOT FOR LOCAL FISHERMEN TO REMINISCE ABOUT DAYS GONE BY.

>>> AND BEFORE WE LEAVE YOU, A REMINDER OF OUR TOP STORY.

RUSSIA'S VLADIMIR PUTIN IS NOW A WANTED MAN.

THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ISSUING A WARRANT FOR HIS ARREST FOR ALLEGED WAR CRIMES, INCLUDING DEPORTING UKRAINIAN CHILDREN TO RUSSIA.

THE ICC SAYS THERE ARE, QUOTE, REASONABLE GROUNDS TO BELIEVE PUTIN BEARS INDIVIDUAL CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ALLEGED CRIMES AND FOR HIS, QUOTE, FAILURE TO EXERCISE CONTROL PROPERLY OVER CIVILIAN AND MILITARY SUBORDINATES WHO COMMITTED THE ACTS.

THE KREMLIN CALLS THE ICC'S ARREST WARRANT, QUOTE, OUTRAGEOUS AND UNACCEPTABLE.

NOW, MAKE SURE YOU TUNE IN TO "AMANPOUR" NEXT WEEK WHEN CHRISTIANE WILL BE SPEAKING TO THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT PROSECUTOR.

ALSO, NEXT WEEK CHRISTIANE HAS CAT STEVENS ON THE SHOW TALKING ABOUT HIS LONG AWAITED SEVENTH ALBUM "KING OF A LAND."

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO COME UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT JUST SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" DO JOIN US AGAIN NEXT WEEK.