>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO" HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> THE NEXT WAR BEGINS UNDERWATER.

>> TWIST, THE NEW BOOK EXPLORING THE DEEP SEA CABLES CONNECTING THE WHOLE WORLD.

THEN, EXCLUSIVE HORRORS INSIDE AN IRANIAN PRISON, HIS JOURNEY FROM DEATH ROW TO EXILE.

>>> IT'S NOT JUST RED CARPETS AND GLAMOUR.

>> 60 YEARS OF THE SOUND OF MUSIC, WE LOOK BACK AT MY CONVERSATION WITH JULIE ANDREWS AS SHE TAKES ME BEHIND-THE- SCENES ABOUT THAT ICONIC MOVIE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, WHEN THE GOING WAS GOOD, FORMER VANITY FAIR EDITOR REFLECTS ON A CAREER DURING THE LAST GOLDEN AGE OF MAGAZINES, WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JEAN ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING LEAR, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAM TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J BLUSH, SETON J MELVIN, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON , THIS WEEK, WITH THE WHITE HOUSE STILL BLAMING THE MESSENGER AND NOT THE BLATANT BREACH OF CLASSIFIED MATERIAL, SO WE BEGIN TONIGHT WITH THE TALE OF THE MURKY WORLD THAT KEEPS ALL OF US CONNECTED, UNDERSEA INTERNET CABLE, THE ONLINE WORLD RELIES UPON THESE SEABED ROUTES AND YET THEY ARE INCREDIBLY VULNERABLE TO SABOTAGE.

NATO HAS EVEN DEPLOYED WARSHIPS AGAINST A SERIES OF CABLES IN THE BALTIC SEA, THIS REAL-WORLD DRAMA IS CAPTURED IN VIVID DETAIL, IN A NOVEL BY MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT, TWIST IS ABOUT AN IRISH WRITER FOLLOWING A REPAIR CREW WHICH HAS BEEN SENT OUT TO MEND THESE BROKEN CABLES OFF THE COAST OF AFRICA.

IT IS A DRAMATIC STORY AS MUCH ABOUT DANGER, ENGINEERING AND GLOBAL SECURITY AS IT IS ABOUT A NEW SORT OF COLONIALISM.

AUTHOR, COLLIN McCAN HAS WRITTEN ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST TO NORTHERN IRELAND, AS WELL AS HIS CONVERSATIONS WITH THE POPE, AS I DISCOVERED, HE HAS HIS FINGER FIRMLY ON THE PULSE OF OUR BIGGEST ISSUES, WRAPPED UP AS LITERARY MASTERPIECES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, YOU HAVE WRITTEN A LOT OF BOOKS, WHY TWIST?

WHY UNDERSEA CABLES?

>> I WAS ASTOUNDED WHEN I FOUND OUT THAT 95% OF OUR WORLD'S INTERCONTINENTAL INFORMATION BOUNCES AROUND ON THE BOTTOM OF THE SEAFLOOR, WHERE IN FACT, YOU AND I ARE RIGHT NOW IN BILLIONS OF PULSES OF LIGHT TRAVELING AROUND THE WORLD, NOT ONLY BETWEEN OURSELVES BUT BETWEEN ALL OF YOUR WONDERFUL VIEWERS.

>> THAT SOUNDS REALLY GREAT, WHAT I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, THE TECHNICALITY IS THAT AS YOU SAY, ALL OF OUR INFORMATION IS TRANSMITTED IN THESE PULSES THROUGH THESE UNDERSEA CABLES, RIGHT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT, THE WORLD IS GOVERNED NOW BY OUR UNDERWATER CABLES, EVERYBODY THINKS THE CLOUD IS IN THE AIR, THAT SOMETIMES IT IS CELESTIAL AND OUR VOICES GO UP THERE AND OUR EMOJIS GO UP THERE, BUT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, IT IS ACTUALLY DWELLING IN THE ABYSS, IN THE ABYSS ZONE AND THE HAZEL ZONE AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE SEA.

THERE'S ABOUT 400+ CABLES IN THE WORLD THAT CARRYOVER $10 TRILLION WORTH OF FINANCIAL INFORMATION EVERY SINGLE DAY, AND THIS AMAZES ME BECAUSE IT IS NOTHING BIGGER THAN A GARDEN HOSE CARRYING ALL OF THAT INFORMATION AND WITHIN THE GARDEN HOSE, THERE ARE FIBERS THAT ARE NO BIGGER THAN YOUR EYELASH.

I HAVE A LITTLE PAPERCLIP HERE, IT IS THINNER THAN THIS PAPERCLIP.

THIS SORT OF THING ASTOUNDS ME, IF IT IS NOT A MIRACLE THEN IT IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE TO TRY TO EXPLAIN THROUGH SCIENCE, THROUGH FICTION, AND IT SEEMS TO ME EXTRAORDINARILY SCARY ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THEY CAN BE SABOTAGED.

>> THAT IS WHAT I WANTED TO GET TO ACTUALLY, COLUM BECAUSE WE ARE IN A MOMENT WHERE YOU ARE SEEING THE INCREDIBLE INCOMPETENCE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND USING ANOTHER SYSTEM FOR CLASSIFIED DISCUSSIONS ON THE HOUTHI ATTACK PLAN A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, SO THESE CABLES CAN BE USED FOR SECRET GOVERNMENT COMMUNICATIONS BUT HOW VULNERABLE ARE THEY?

>> THEY ARE EXTREMELY VULNERABLE, I TALKED TO A BRITISH ADMIRABLE QUITE RECENTLY AND HE SAID THE NEXT WAR BEGINS UNDERWATER.

HE SAID DON'T BE SURPRISED BY THAT, YES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DRONES AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AERIAL ENGAGEMENT BUT, THE NEXT ONE WILL START WITH CABLES, AND CABLES WILL BE CUT AND THERE WILL BE INFORMATION DENIED AND DISINFORMATION SUPPLIED.

IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.

>> OKAY, SO INTERESTING, BECAUSE ONE OF THE MAIN AREAS IS IN THE RED SEA WHERE THE HOUTHIS ARE, THE ARE ON BACKED GROUP THAT WAS THE TARGET OF THE AIR STRIKES REASONING AND YOU SAY THE NEXT WAR BUT WE KNOW THAT RUSSIA HAS BEEN BLAMED FOR CUTTING CERTAIN CABLES, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF THIS GOING ON SINCE THE UKRAINE WAR, MAYBE EVEN BEFORE THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT.

THIS IS ALREADY A BATTLEGROUND.

>> IT IS A MASSIVE BATTLEGROUND AND PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE, THEY ARE OUT THERE IN SHIPS, IN SUBMARINES, THIS SOUNDS LIKE A PLOT OF THE WILDEST SPY NOVEL BUT THE TRUTH IS, THEY ARE STARING IN OUR EYES, ALL THOSE CABLES THAT GET CUT IN THE BALTIC SEA, ALL THE CABLES THAT GET CUT IN THE RED SEA.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE HALF POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS.

PRECISELY BECAUSE IT CARRIES NOT ONLY SO MUCH OF OUR LIVES BUT IT CARRIES THE EXACT MILITARY INFORMATION THAT GETS USED, ABUSED, AND FRANKLY IS OUT THERE AND CAN BE LISTENED TO AND TAKEN AWAY FROM US, AND THEREFORE IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE TS ELIOT POEM, WE HAVE TO BE THERE UNTIL HUMAN VOICES WAKE US AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA AND WE DROWN.

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, THIS NOVEL, BECAUSE IT IS A NOVEL DESPITE ITS REAL- LIFE IMPLICATIONS IS SET IN AFRICA AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY BUT YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT, YOU REFER TO HEART OF DARKNESS, ABOUT THE HORROR OF NEOCOLONIALISM AND FAST FORWARD TO TODAY, META IS GOING TO BE BUILDING THE WORLD'S LONGEST UNDERSEA CABLE.

I JUST WANT TO READ THIS QUOTE FROM YOUR BOOK, THE SAME CORPORATIONS WHO CONTROLLED THE CABLES CONTROL THE INFORMATION, TOO.

IT WAS A WELL-DRESSED SHELL GAME, ALL THE MYOPIA, ALL THE GREED, A NEW CABLE WOULD MAKE THE ENDS OF DOLLARS FOR HIS OWNERS, IT WAS ALSO QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THE INFORMATION WITHIN WAS OWNED OR TAPPED OR BOTH, THE OLD COLONIALISM WAS DRESSED UP, IT SNAKED THE FLOORS OF OUR UNSIGHTLY FEES.

EXPLAIN YOUR THINKING, AND BY THE WAY, WHO DOES OWN ALL THESE CABLES, I KNOW BETTER, META DOES, BUT WHO ELSE?

>> MICROSOFT, AMAZON, MUCH OF THE BIG TECH PLAYERS IN THIS INCREDIBLE GAME, NOT ONLY DO THEY HAVE THE INFORMATION THAT IS WITHIN, YOU KNOW, ALL OUR LITTLE DAILY MOVEMENTS, OUR PHONE CALLS, OUR LIKES AND DISLIKES, BUT THEY OWN THE OPERETTAS THAT CARRIES THEM AND GUESS WHAT, ALL OF THESE TUBES FOLLOW THE OLD COLONIAL SLAVING AND TRADE ROUTES.

IT IS A BIZARRE IMAGE FOR A NEW DIGITAL COLONIALISM THAT WE HAVE TO BE ENTIRELY AWARE OF, WE MIGHT NOT BE TALKING IN 20 OR 30 YEARS ABOUT NATIONAL COLONIALISM BUT WE MIGHT BE TALKING VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT CORPORATE COLONIALISM.

WHEN THE CABLE GETS CUT, FOR EXAMPLE WITH A LINE SLIDE, UNDERWATER LANDSLIDE OR EARTHQUAKE, A BOAT HAS TO GO OUT SAFE FROM CAPE TOWN AND TRAVEL FOR TWO WEEKS, THEN IT HAS TO FIND THE CABLE WHICH IS SOMETIMES BURIED UNDERNEATH METERS AND METERS OF INLAND DEBRIS THAT HAS TAKEN THE CABLE OUT, AND THESE PEOPLE WHO GO OUT TO SEA, THEY HAVE TO GO THERE AND THEY HAVE TO FIND THE CABLE AND THEY CANNOT COME BACK UNTIL THEY DO.

SOMETIMES IT IS LIKE LOOKING FOR A NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK.

IF A BAD ACTOR DECIDED THAT THEY WANT TO TAKE OUT A CABLE, THEY WOULD TAKE IT AT THE DEEPEST POINT IN THE OCEAN THAT THEY POSSIBLY COULD.

AND WE WOULD BE LEFT SCRAMBLING.

THIS HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING NEW, AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA YOU CAN CUT THE CABLE, CLOSE TO THE SHORE YOU CAN CUT THE CABLE, AND AT THE LANDING STATIONS, WHERE THESE CABLES COME IN ALL AROUND THE WORLD, THERE IS VERY LITTLE SECURITY.

I HAVE A NEW YORK GONE TO A LANDING STATION WHERE ALL THE WORLD CABLE INFORMATION IS COMING IN AND STOOD OVER THE MANHOLE COVER.

IF I HAD A CROWBAR IN MY HANDS, I COULD HAVE LIFTED UP THE MANHOLE, BUT I DON'T TRAVEL WITH A CROWBAR BY THE WAY.

BUT I COULD HAVE LIFTED UP THAT MANHOLE COVER, REACHED DOWN AND TOUCHED ALL THE IMAGES, ALL OF THE PULSES, ALL THE CRAZY STUFF THAT IS GOING THROUGH AND IF I WANTED TO, LIKE ELON MUSK, I DON'T CARRY A CHAINSAW BUT IF I CARRIED A CHAINSAW I COULD TAKE ON THE INTERNET FOR A DAY OR TWO.

THIS STUFF IS ENTIRELY VULNERABLE.

>> IT DOES SOUND VULNERABLE THAN I THOUGHT, YOU MENTIONED ELON MUSK AND YOU MENTIONED AMERICA, YOU HAVE LIVED IN THE U.S. FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DISCOVERING ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE ARE THINKING IN SCHOOLS OR WHEREVER, BECAUSE YOU REALLY ARE SORT OF AN INVESTIGATOR AND YOU TALK TO A WHOLE RANGE OF PEOPLE.

WHAT ARE STUDENTS TELLING YOU ABOUT THIS MOMENT?

>> WE ARE ALL SCARED, WRITERS ARE SCARED, STUDENTS ARE SCARED, IT'S ALMOST AS IF WE HAVE BEEN CONCUSSED, WE GOT A PUNCH TO THE BACK OF THE BRAIN AND A SECOND PUNCH AS WE ROSE UP.

BUT THERE IS A GREAT SENSE OF BUILDING RESISTANCE.

PEOPLE FIGURING OUT WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO SAY, HOW THEY ARE GOING TO SAY IT, WITHOUT SOUNDING CRAZY OR ANYTHING, TO BUILD A FORM OF POWERFUL RESISTANCE, THAT IS ABLE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN GAZA, THAT IS ABLE TO TALK ABOUT UKRAINE, THAT IS ABLE TO TALK ABOUT SUDAN AND YES, ALSO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

I HAVE A NONPROFIT WHERE WE BRING YOUNG PEOPLE TOGETHER FROM DISPARATE BACKGROUNDS AND THEY TELL STORIES TO ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE IT IS MY OPINION THAT STORIES CAN CHANGE THE WORLD.

IF WE BRING THESE YOUNG PEOPLE TOGETHER, TELLING THEIR STORIES FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES, WE CAN HELP AT LEAST A TINY DROP, A TINY DROP OF HEALING TO BEGIN.

>> YOU KNOW, COLUM , IT IS INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY WE ARE ALL SCARED, AND IT SEEMS LIKE IN THE UNITED STATES PEOPLE ARE SCARED OF THE CONSEQUENCES, WE HAVE SEEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, TRUMP HAS CHALLENGED LAWYERS AND CHALLENGED THE COURTS, CHALLENGED ACADEMIA AND THE PRESS, MAYBE CHALLENGES TO THE WHOLE WORLD, BUT OVERSEAS, THEY ARE STANDING UP AND YOU YOURSELF HAVE BEEN VERY CONNECTED WITH THE POPE.

YOU HAVE GIVEN SOME SPEECHES, YOU HAVE DONE WRITINGS AND YOU SEE HIM AND PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HIM RECENTLY AS JUST HIS CHRISTIAN FAITH, HIS EMPATHY, WHAT HE BELIEVES IN, DEAN A REAL ACT OF RESISTANCE.

TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> I HAD THE EXTRAORDINARY HONOR OF BEING INVITED TO THE VATICAN BY POPE FRANCIS, PRIMARILY BECAUSE I WROTE A BOOK CALLED A PARAGON AND A PARAGON TOOK PLACE IN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, IT IS ABOUT TWO FATHERS WHO LOST THEIR DAUGHTERS IN SEPARATE INCIDENTS AND THE REAL-LIFE FATHERS BRING A MESSAGE OF PEACE BY SAYING WE DON'T HAVE TO LOVE EACH OTHER, WE DON'T EVEN HAVE TO LIKE ONE ANOTHER.

BUT WE MUST UNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER.

AND WHEN POPE FRANCIS HEARD THIS, HE WANTED TO INVITE THEM TO TALK TO THEM, AND HE BROUGHT THEM TO HIS PERSONAL QUARTERS IN THE VATICAN.

AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYBODY IN MY ENTIRE CAREER OF LISTENING, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I LIKE TO DO, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYBODY LISTEN SO POWERFULLY, SO BEAUTIFULLY, SO QUIETLY, AND RECEIVE THE WORDS OF THE FATHERS AND SORT OF HAVE THEM ENTER HIM IN AN EXTRAORDINARY WAY.

I COULD SEE THE GRACE, I COULD SEE THE BEAUTY AND WHEN HE SPOKE, HE SPOKE A LITTLE BIT IN ENGLISH BUT WHEN HE REALLY WANTED TO SPEAK, HE SPOKE IN SPANISH TO A TRANSLATOR TO US.

AND HE TALKED ABOUT THIS IDEA OF STORIES HEALING THE WORLD, STORIES BECOMING MEDICINE.

THE IDEA THAT WE MUST BEGIN TO TRY TO KNOW ONE ANOTHER.

AND YES, HE HAS BECOME INTENSELY POLITICAL, HE HAS BECOME A SORT OF LIGHTNING ROD OF HOPE FOR SO MANY OF US AND WHO WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT THIS GREAT CONSERVATIVE, HEAVING ORGANIZATION THAT WAS IN SO MUCH TROUBLE THAT COULD SOMEHOW, AT LEAST HIM WITHIN IT BE A BEACON OF LIGHT.

AGAIN, PULSING ITS WAY AROUND THE WORLD.

>> IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT, HE HAS NOW BEEN DISCHARGED BACK TO THE VATICAN, BUT LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE REMI ON MY SHOW TO ANOTHER ISRAELI FRIEND, OVER THE TRAGEDIES AND IT IS INCREDIBLE WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES TALKING AND EMPATHIZING WITH EACH OTHER, SO I UNDERSTAND AND HEAR YOU ON THE POWER OF STORYTELLING.

HOW ARE THEY NOW IN THIS HORROR THAT IS CONTINUING?

>> IT IS A BEAUTIFUL QUEST AND I'M HAPPY TO TELL YOU, ALSO DISTRAUGHT TO TELL YOU THAT THEY ARE HEARTBROKEN.

THEY ARE ANGRY.

THEY ARE CONFUSED.

AND THEY ARE SCARED.

ESPECIALLY BASSAM WHO IS IN THE WEST BANK AND HE SEES THESE THINGS UNFOLDING IN FRONT OF HIS EYES, THESE HORRORS AND LAND GRABS THAT ARE GOING ON, HIS OWN CHILDREN BEING STOPPED AT CHECKPOINTS AND BEING HUMILIATED IN EXTRAORDINARY WAYS AND YET HE STILL GETS UP EVERY MORNING, HE WATERS HIS GARDEN, HE GETS ON THE PHONE, HE GETS ON ZOOM, AND HE TALKS TO REMI EVERY SINGLE DAY, THEY CALLED EACH OTHER OCTOBER 7th AND OCTOBER 8th, HE SAID YOU CAN COME STAY WITH ME OR I WILL COME STAY WITH YOU.

THEY ARE AN EXTRAORDINARY EXAMPLE THAT SOME PEOPLE MIGHT SCOFF AT AS SORT OF SENTIMENTAL AND NAOVE, THERE IS A COURAGE THERE THAT GOES BEYOND ANY TRADITIONAL FORM OF COURAGE THAT SAYS WE ARE NEIGHBORS AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE NEIGHBORS.

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN TO BE NEIGHBORS AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE CAN DO IS USE THE POWER OF OUR GRIEF TO CHANGE THIS STUFF AROUND AND NOT TURN JUSTICE INTO ANY FORM OF REVENGE.

>> YOU KNOW, COLUM , AS YOU SPEAK, I'M THINKING ABOUT ONE OF THE PALESTINIAN FILMMAKERS, FROM THE OSCAR-WINNING DOCUMENTARY, WHO WAS BEATEN UP, ARRESTED BY SETTLERS AND JUST THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID, IT WORKED WITH ISRAELIS, PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS TOGETHER, TO ME THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO BRING HOPE TO THE FUTURE BECAUSE THEY STILL HAVE HOPE, THEY ARE STILL TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

LET'S TRANSLATE A LITTLE BIT FINALLY, YOU ARE ALSO IN TOUCH WITH SENATOR GEORGE MITCHELL, THERE'S ANOTHER FABULOUS ANNIVERSARY FOR THE GREAT GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT OF NORTHERN IRELAND COMING UP AND YOU HAVE BEEN HELPING HIM I BELIEVE WRITING THE SPEECH FOR THIS, YOU ARE QUITE CLOSE TO HIM.

THIS IS A PHENOMENAL EXAMPLE OF HOW YOU GET PEOPLE FROM TWO SIDES OF A VERY BITTER WAR TO MAKE PEACE.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING NOW, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING YOU WANT GEORGE MITCHELL TO SAY?

>> THANK YOU FOR BRINGING UP SENATOR MITCHELL AND ALL OF HIS WORK.

HE FINDS THE POSSIBLE WITHIN THE SUPPOSEDLY IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU, I'M 60 YEARS OLD AND WHEN I WAS 16 YEARS OLD, I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THINGS IN NORTHERN IRELAND TO BE AT PEACE, AND FROM MY ISLAND TO HAVE 27 YEARS OF PEACE.

I WOULD HAVE LAUGHED AT YOU, I WOULD HAVE SAID THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRAZY BUT, THE THING ABOUT IT IS, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE.

MEN AND PARTICULARLY WOMEN, ESPECIALLY IN NORTHERN IRELAND, WOMEN OF PURPOSE AND CONVICTION, WHO BELIEVE THAT THIS STUFF NOT ONLY SHOULD STOP BUT WILL STOP AND HAS TO STOP.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SENATOR MITCHELL IS TALKING ABOUT IS PASSING THE TORCH.

IT IS TIME TO GIVE A YOUNGER GENERATION A CHANCE TO UNDERSTAND, THEY WILL TAKE IT IN NEW WAYS AND ABSOLUTELY NEW DIRECTIONS BUT THE FACT THAT THE PIECE IS HELD, YES IT IS SHAKY AND A BIT DODGY AT TIMES AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT BUT IT HAS HELD AND IT IS A SHINY, HUMAN EXAMPLE OF WHAT CAN BE DONE WHEN WE LISTEN TO EACH OTHER AND WE HAVEN'T EMPATHY AND DECENCY AND COMPASSION FOR ONE ANOTHER AND SENATOR MITCHELL HAS BUILT A CAREER OUT OF THIS, AT 92 YEARS OLD NOW, OR 92 YEARS YOUNG RATHER BECAUSE HE IS PRETTY INCREDIBLE, HE IS STILL SAYING THIS IS WHAT WE NEED.

HE STILL HAS A SORT OF FORM OF WHAT I WOULD CALL A RADICAL HOPE, HE MIGHT NOT CALL IT A RADICAL HOPE, HE FINDS IT TO BE ENTIRELY GROUNDED AND PROPER AND REASONABLE AND THESE ARE SHATTERED TIMES.

WE ALL KNOW THEY ARE SHATTERED TIMES.

IN FACT, WHEN WE TRY TO PICK UP PIECES, THEY SHATTER IN OUR HANDS INSTANTLY BECAUSE THE WORLD IS MOVING IN AN EXPONENTIAL WAY.

LET'S REMEMBER THAT WE HAVE PEACE IN PLACES LIKE NORTHERN ISLAND, LET'S REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OF PEACE AND ENGAGEMENT IN ALL SORTS OF PLACES THAT DON'T GET RECOGNIZED WHETHER IN THE WEST BANK, WHETHER IN GAZA, WHETHER IN ISRAEL OR UKRAINE.

PEOPLE ARE DOING THINGS AND I THINK IF WE REMEMBER THEM, WE ARE GOING TO BE ON THE ROAD TO SOME FORM OF HEALING.

>> WITHOUT A DOUBT, NOT JUST HEALING BUT SOLUTIONS, WE SHOULD DEFINITELY RAISE THE VOICES OF THE PEACEMAKERS.

COLUM McCANN, THANK YOU SO MUCH, AUTHOR OF TWIST , I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO GEORGE MITCHELL'S SPEECH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW TO A JOURNEY FROM DEATH ROW TO EXILE, WHICH HAS CAPTURED THE ATTENTION OF SO MANY, IRANIAN RAPPER WAS DETAINED IN 2022, WHEN HE WAS GIVEN RADICAL LEAVE LAST OCTOBER, HE FLED THE COUNTRY, NOW HE IS SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THE TREATMENT HE ENDURED BEHIND BARS.

IN THIS EXCLUSIVE REPORT, AND IT DOES CONTAIN DESCRIPTIONS OF TORTURE.

>> IT WAS A TREACHEROUS TRACTOR FREEDOM FOR A MAN ON A MISSION TO TELL THE WORLD OF THE HORRORS HE SURVIVED.

AFTER TWO YEARS IN THE DEEPEST, DARKEST CELLS OF THE PRISONS, SAMAN YASIN CAME OUT A BROKEN MAN.

>> I DEVELOPED A LOT OF TRAUMA AFTER PRISON.

>> HE RECENTLY ESCAPED, NOW IN GERMANY, HE SAT DOWN WITH US FOR THIS EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, WHAT HE SAYS HE ENDURED BEHIND BARS AND THE ORDEAL THAT LED HIM TO THE GALLOWS AND BACK.

THE 29-YEAR-OLD HAD LONG BEEN A REBEL, HIS MUSIC IS A FORM OF PROTEST AGAINST OPPRESSION AND SOCIAL INJUSTICE.

AND WHEN IRANIANS ROSE UP IN WHAT WAS KNOWN AS THE PROTEST OF 2022, SAMAN YASIN WAS AMONG THE MASSES OUT IN THE STREET.

THEY WERE MET WITH BRUTAL FORCE.

HUNDREDS WERE KILLED ACCORDING TO THE U.N., THOUSANDS DETAINED.

YASIN WAS ONE OF DOZENS OF PROTESTERS WHO APPEARED IN WHAT RIGHTS GROUPS DESCRIBED AS SHAM TRIALS BASED ON FORCED CONFESSIONS EXTRACTED UNDER TORTURE.

>> DURING THOSE FIRST TWO OR THREE MONTHS, I WAS UNDER SEVERE TORTURE, THE INTERROGATORS HIMSELF TOLD ME, WHATEVER HAPPENS TO YOU HERE, NOBODY WILL KNOW, THIS PLACE DOESN'T EVEN EXIST ON THE MAP.

>> I KNOW THIS IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR YOU, BUT ARE YOU ABLE TO DESCRIBE THIS PHYSICAL TORTURE THAT THEY PUT YOU THROUGH?

>> AND THEY TOOK ME TO A COLD ROOM AND LEFT ME HANGING THERE.

THAT ROOM I HEARD FROM THE OTHER PRISONERS THAT THEY CALL IT THE MORGUE BECAUSE IT IS FREEZING COLD.

THEY HOISTED ME UP ONE HOUR, TWO HOURS, JUST HANGING, THEY ASKED ME, ARE YOU GOING TO WRITE A CONFESSION OR NOT?

>> YASIN SAID HIS INTERROGATORS WANTED HIM TO CONFESS THAT HE WAS THE MAN IN THIS VIDEO, THAT HE HAD A GUN AND FIRED IT THREE TIMES DURING A PROTEST, HIS DENIALS ONLY LEAD TO MORE SEVERE TORTURE.

>> THE INTERROGATORS INSERTED A PEN INTO MY LEFT NOSTRIL AND FORCIBLY HIT IT, I PASSED OUT FROM THE PAIN AND WHEN I WOKE UP, I WAS COVERED IN BLOOD.

>> WITHIN WEEKS OF HIS ARREST, HE WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH, WHILE ON DEATH ROW, HE SAYS THEY PUT HIM THROUGH THE UNIMAGINABLE.

>> THEY TOLD ME, GO UP THE STEPS, THEN THEY PUT A NOOSE AROUND MY NECK, I WAS UNDER THAT FOR ABOUT 15 MINUTES.

>> YASIN'S DEATH SENTENCE WAS OVERTURNED BY THE SUPREME COURT, AND YES LAST YEAR HE WAS ACCUSED OF COLLUDING AGAINST NATIONAL SECURITY.

HIS HEALTH AND MENTAL STATE DETERIORATED SO MUCH IN PRISON, THEY HAD TO RELEASE HIM ON MEDICAL FURLOUGH IN OCTOBER.

BACK INTO THE ARMS OF A MOTHER WHO THOUGHT SHE WOULD NEVER SEE HER BOY AGAIN.

SOON AFTER A NOSE SURGERY, AUTHORITIES SUMMONED HIM BACK TO JAIL.

THERE WAS NO GOING BACK, HE SAYS, HE PAID SMUGGLERS TO GET HIM OUT OF THE MOUNTAINS TO NORTHERN IRAQ.

WITH THE HELP OF ACTIVISTS AND POLITICIANS IN GERMANY, HE MADE IT TO BERLIN, BEGINNING A NEW LIFE ALL ALONE IN A STRANGE PLACE FAR FROM HOME.

HEALING WILL BE HARD, HE SAYS JUST BREATHING THROUGH HIS SHATTERED NOSE IS A CONSTANT REMINDER OF WHAT THEY DID TO HIM.

IRAN DID NOT RESPOND TO OUR REQUEST FOR COMMENT ON HIS CASE, HIS ACCOUNT IS CONSISTENT WITH THE FINDINGS OF A TWO-YEAR U.N. INVESTIGATION INTO THE CRACKDOWN THAT DOCUMENTED WIDESPREAD USE OF TORTURE AND MOCK EXECUTIONS, ACCUSING THE REGIME OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

YASIN IS TURNING HIS TRAUMA INTO LYRICS, A SURVIVOR'S TESTIMONY FOR THE WORLD TO HEAR.

>> WHEN YOU WANT FREEDOM, YOU INEVITABLY HAVE TO PAY A PRICE FOR IT, AND I DID NOT JUST WITNESS THESE THINGS, I LIVED THROUGH THEM AND NOW I FEEL AN EVEN GREATER RESPONSIBILITY TOWARD THE PEOPLE THAN EVER BEFORE.

>> A RESPONSIBILITY TO BE THE VOICE OF THOSE HE LEFT BEHIND BARS, THE VOICE THAT HE VOWS WILL NOT BE SILENCED.

>> MUSIC AND LYRICS HAVE BEEN IMPORTANT BAROMETERS OF ALL AVENUES OF LIFE, THIS WEEK A VERY DIFFERENT SOUND CELEBRATES ITS 60th BIRTHDAY, IT IS THE SOUND OF MUSIC, WHICH I FIRST WATCHED GROWING UP IN IRAN , THE SWEEPING MUSICAL ABOUT A NUN FINDING LOVE IN THE ALPS, IT'S MASSIVE AND ENDURING SUCCESS CONFIRMED JULIE ANDREWS AS THE BIGGEST STAR ON THE PLANET, WE SPOKE BACK IN 2019 WHEN SHE RELEASED A MEMOIR AND SHE TOLD ME ABOUT WHAT IT WAS LIKE, AND PLAYING OTHER LOVETT CHARACTERS LIKE MARY POPPINS.

JULIE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU ON BOARD.

LET'S TALK ABOUT MARY POPPINS FOR A MOMENT BECAUSE THAT WAS YOUR FIRST EVER FILM.

YOU CAME TO HERE IN ENGLAND, AND WHO APPROACHED YOU TO DO MARY POPPINS?

>> WELL I WAS ON BROADWAY FOR QUITE A WHILE IN MY FAIR LADY AND CAMELOT AND WONDERFUL MUSICALS AND I WAS IN CAMELOT WITH RICHARD BURTON, THE WONDROUS RICHARD BURTON AND WALT DISNEY CAME TO SEE THE SHOW.

THE MAN HIMSELF.

AND APPARENTLY I DIDN'T KNOW IT BUT HE HAD BEEN ADVISED TO COME AND SEE THAT YOUNG LADY IN CAMELOT, AND HE CAME BACKSTAGE AND I THOUGHT HE WAS COMING BACK TO JUST BE POLITE AND SORT OF SAY HE ENJOYED THE SHOW AND SO ON, BUT HE PROCEEDED TO TELL ME ABOUT THIS LIVE ACTION ANIMATION FILM HE WAS PLANNING, WITH MARY POPPINS.

AND ASKED IF I WOULD LIKE TO COME TO HOLLYWOOD AND SEE THE DESIGNS AND HEAR THE SONGS AND SO ON.

I WAS GOB SMACKED, I SAID I WOULD LOVE TO, BUT I'M SO SORRY, I'M PREGNANT.

AND HE SAID THAT'S ALL RIGHT, WE WILL WAIT.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT A MOVIE TAKES AS LONG AS IT DOES WITH PREPRODUCTION AND SO ON.

LO AND BEHOLD, ABOUT NINE MONTHS LATER WITH MY NEW BABY, AND MY HUSBAND, WE WENT OFF TO HOLLYWOOD AND -- >> I READ THAT YOU WERE WORRIED YOU MIGHT BE CASTED AS THIS ENGLISH NANNY.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU MIGHT AGREE WITH SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT SAY, IN FACT YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST FEMALE SUPERHEROES BECAUSE MARY POPPINS IS ALL ABOUT ESSENTIALLY A FEMALE SUPERHERO.

>> THAT IS TRUE, ESPECIALLY THESE DAYS, WITH SO MANY THINGS HAPPENING, I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.

SHE WAS VERY FORTHRIGHT AND FORTHCOMING AND STATED HER MIND.

>> AND ALL OF THE FLYING AND ACROBATICS.

>> YOU KNOW, I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY, THANK YOU.

>> AND TELL US, IT WASN'T THE EASIEST OF PERFORMANCES FOR YOU IN TERMS OF THE HARNESSES AND THE WIRES AND THE PHYSICALITY.

>> THERE WERE SO MANY SPECIAL EFFECTS IN THE FILM, INCLUDING THE FLYING SEQUENCES AND IN THOSE DAYS, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE AMAZING THINGS THAT THEY HAVE THESE DAYS WHICH CAN MAKE IT SO MUCH EASIER TO DO AND ANIMATION AS WELL AS LIVE- ACTION.

>> [SINGING] >> SO, DISNEY REALLY INVENTED EVERYTHING AT THE STUDIO, AND I WAS FLYING AROUND IN EXCRUCIATINGLY PAINFUL HARNESSES AND THERE WAS A DAY WHERE I VERY NEARLY GOT DROPPED, WELL I DID DROP ACTUALLY.

>> YOU WERE LIKE A SACK OF POTATOES.

>> YES, BUT IT WAS ALMOST THE LAST DAY OF FILMING AND THEY WERE SATING ALL OF THE IMPORTANT FLYING STUFF PRESUMABLY AT THE END OF THE FILM IN CASE THERE WAS AN ACCIDENT, AND SURE ENOUGH THERE WAS AN ACCIDENT.

I FELT MYSELF SLIPPING A LITTLE BIT, SO I CAME DOWN AND I SAID CAN YOU PLEASE BE KIND ENOUGH TO JUST BRING ME DOWN GENTLY BECAUSE I WASN'T SURE AT WHICH POINT I DID GO ALL THE WAY TO THE STAGE BUT, THE GOOD THING IS I HAD COUNTERBALANCING EQUIPMENT AS WELL.

OF COURSE I DID.

BUT I DID COME DOWN PRETTY HARD.

>> AGAIN, VERY AHEAD OF ITS TIME ALL OF THIS, YOU GOT ALL THE AWARDS POSSIBLE FOR MARY POPPINS, GOLDEN GLOBE, THE OSCARS AWARD, IT WAS PRETTY AMAZING BUT, THERE IS THIS LEGEND THAT PERHAPS YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHOSEN FOR THE FILM VERSION OF MY FAIR LADY.

YOU WERE ON BROADWAY AND THERE IS A VERY FUNNY STORY ABOUT WHEN YOU ACCEPTED THE GOLDEN GLOBE.

TELL ME.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THE PRODUCER, JACK WARNER WHO PRODUCED THE FILM OF MY FAIR LADY WAS OF COURSE AT THE GOLDEN GLOBES BECAUSE IT WAS ALSO NOMINATED AND JUST BEFORE I WENT ON STAGE, SOMETHING MADE ME SAY TO THE TABLE WHERE I WAS SITTING, YOU KNOW I SUPPOSE SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY I SHOULD SAY THANK YOU TO JACK WARNER BECAUSE IF I HADN'T DONE MY FAIR LADY I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO MARY POPPINS.

SO IMMEDIATELY, THEY SAID DO IT JULIE, JUST DO IT.

AND I THOUGHT, I'M SO NEW IN HOLLYWOOD BUT WHEN I GOT UP THERE, SOME WICKED IMPULSE MAYBE SAY, AND OF COURSE FINALLY I HAVE TO THANK MR. WARNER FOR MAKING THIS ALL POSSIBLE.

AND THERE WAS THIS AWFUL SILENCE AND I THOUGHT OH, MY GOD, MY CAREER HAS ENDED.

BUT THEN THEY BURST IT OUT LAUGHING INCLUDING MR. WARNER WHO WAS A GOOD SPORT ABOUT IT.

AND A HUGE MOBILE, BUT HE WAS HERE ABOUT IT AND HE GOT WHAT I WAS SAYING.

>> AND THEN YOU DID THE SOUND OF MUSIC WHICH AGAIN, IS EVERYBODY'S FAVORITE.

HOW MANY TIMES HAS EVERYBODY SEEN IT?

I WAS FASCINATED, THE ICONIC SHOT OF YOU EMERGING ON THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN AND THE CAMERA PANS UP.

>> [SINGING] THE HILLS ARE ALIVE WITH THE SOUND OF MUSIC, WITH SONGS OF 1000 YEARS.

>> IT WAS VERY HARD WORK, BECAUSE YOU SAID -- >> I CALLED THIS MEMOIR HOMEWORK BECAUSE I WANTED TO SHOW THAT IT'S NOT JUST RED CARPETS AND GLAMOUR, IT REALLY ISN'T AND AS YOU ALL KNOW, YOUR BUSINESS AND MY BUSINESS, IT IS REALLY A LOT OF WORK TO GET IT RIGHT AND TRY TO DO IT WELL AND LONG HOURS AND MUCH TRAVEL.

I JUST WANTED TO SHOW THAT.

>> WITHIN THIS PARTICULAR OPENING SEQUENCE, THE HELICOPTER, THE FAMOUS HELICOPTER WAS FLYING AROUND TRYING TO GET THE SHOT.

AND HOW DID IT AFFECT YOU PHYSICALLY?

>> WELL, IT WAS JUST ONE VERY SMALL PIECE OF FILM BUT IT WAS THAT MOMENT OF WALKING TOWARD THE CAMERA AND GIVING THAT SPIN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FILM.

SO, I STARTED AT ONE END OF THE FIELD AND THE HELICOPTER, WITH AN INCREDIBLY GOOD CAMERAMAN HANGING OUT THE SIDE OF IT WITH THIS HUGE CAMERA STRAPPED TO HIM FROM THE OTHER END OF THE FIELD AND WE APPROACHED EACH OTHER, IT WAS THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY SIGHT TO SEE THIS HELICOPTER COMING AT ME SIDEWAYS, SORT OF GRASSHOPPER LIKE OR SOMETHING ACROSS THE FIELD AS A GOT LOWER AND LOWER AND THEN I MADE MY TURN AND THEN THE DIRECTOR SIGNALED FOR ANOTHER TAKE AND ANOTHER TAKE, BUT EVERY TIME THE HELICOPTER WENT BACK TO HIS SIDE OF THE FIELD AND I WENT BACK TO MINE, THE DOWNDRAFT FROM THE JET ENGINES JUST KNOCKED ME FLAT INTO THE GRASS SO EVENTUALLY I WAS COMING UP WITH MUD AND A FEW THINGS LIKE THAT.

I KEPT INDICATING TO THE CAMERAMAN, CAN WE PLEASE MAKE A WIDER TURN AROUND ME?

>> AND EXTRAORDINARILY, AND I DIDN'T KNOW THIS UNTIL JUST RESEARCHING, THE FAMOUS SCENE IN THE ROWBOAT ON THE RIVER IN THE SOUND OF MUSIC WHERE YOU ARE MAKING A SURPRISE FOR THE CAPTAIN.

>> HE IS SUDDENLY COMING HOME AND WE DIDN'T REALIZE HE WAS HOME AND I STAND UP AND ABOUT AND SAID CAPTAIN, YOU ARE HOME, AND THEN WE TUMBLED OUT OF THE BOAT AND JUST BEFORE THAT TAKE ON THE LAKE, THE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR CAME OUT ON THE WATER TOWARD ME AND HE SAID WELL, CAN I JUST ASK YOU SOMETHING?

THE LITTLEST ONE CANNOT SWIM, SO COULD YOU FALL FORWARD OUT OF THE BOAT AND GRABBED HER AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN?

AND I THOUGHT, OH, MY GOSH, HUGE RESPONSIBILITY.

AND OF COURSE THE BOAT ROCKED AND ROCKED AND I WENT STRAIGHT OVER THE BACK WITH MY FEET RATHER LIKE MARY POPPINS AND I HAVE NEVER SWUM SO FAST IN MY LIFE AND SHE WAS A TROOPER.

I MEAN, SHE REALLY WAS.

SHE WENT UNDER A COUPLE OF TIMES, POOR CHILD.

>> NOBODY WOULD LET THAT HAPPEN TODAY.

HEALTH AND SAFETY WOULD BE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

>> AND OF COURSE EVERYBODY WAS GOING INTO THE WATER TO TRY TO REACH HER, BUT THEY ASKED ME TO TRY TO GET HER FIRST.

>> YOU'VE THE -- YOU WRITE VERY POINTEDLY, IT IS LIKE OPENING YOUR CHEST AND BEARING OUT YOUR SOUL, SINGING IS LIKE SITTING IN THE MOST COMFORTABLE ARMCHAIR, IT CAN ALMOST ENTIRELY IN GOLF YOU.

>> IT ALMOST MAKES YOU WANT TO WEEP, THAT IS THE MOMENT TO GIVE IT TO THE AUDIENCE BECAUSE THAT JOY IS SO INTENSE.

>> YOU ALSO SAY IT WAS HEARTBREAKING WHEN YOU LOST YOUR VOICE AND YOU COULDN'T SING ANYMORE.

>> ACTUALLY, THAT PART OF MY LIFE IS NOT TOUCHED IN THIS MOVIE BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS THERE WAS AN OPERATION THAT SADLY IT WASN'T SUCCESSFUL.

AND HERE'S THE AMAZING THING, THAT I DISCOVERED SO MUCH ELSE WHEN I WASN'T SINGING ANYMORE.

WRITING AND WRITING WITH MY DAUGHTER AND WRITING CHILDREN'S BOOKS TOGETHER AND YES, I MOURNED THE LOSS TREMENDOUSLY.

BUT, SHE SAID, MY LOVELY EMMA SAID, MOMMY, YOU JUST FOUND A DIFFERENT WAY OF USING YOUR VOICE, IT WAS AS IF A WEIGHT DROPPED OFF MY SHOULDERS WHEN SHE SAID THAT BECAUSE I DO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO INCLUDE MUSIC AND EVERYTHING THAT I DO AND I ENJOY IT STILL OF COURSE SO MUCH, I MISS SINGING.

BUT THANK GOD IT HAPPENED AT A LATER AGE IN MY LIFE BECAUSE I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE STOPPED SOONER.

>> AMAZING, YOU HAVE HAD A SECOND AND THIRD ACT.

>> YES, IT IS AMAZING, ISN'T IT?

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE .

>>> NEXT, A GLIMPSE INSIDE THE GLAMOUR AND THE INTENSITY OF THE GLOSSY MAGAZINE PRODUCTION IN ITS HEYDAY, THE EDITOR OF VANITY FAIR, FOR 25 YEARS AND IN HIS MEMOIR, HE REFLECTS ON HIS CAREER ADVENTURES, HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE GOLDEN AGE OF MAGAZINE AND HOW HE MADE IT TO THE TOP FROM HIS HUMBLE BEGINNINGS.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS WE OFTEN THINK ABOUT IS THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT DAD, WHEN IT IS A SUCCESSFUL PERSON AND I'M READING THIS BOOK AND YOUR FATHER IS QUITE A CHARACTER, START THERE, TELL ME ABOUT HIM.

>> HE WAS A PILOT DURING WORLD WAR II, HE DID NOT HAVE WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A MIND FOR BUSINESS AND HAD A BUSINESS THAT DID NOT DO WELL AFTER THE WAR BUT HE LOVED FLYING AND HE LOVED SAILING AND SKIING AND GOLF.

AND HE WAS A CHARACTER AND HE LOVED WOOD.

MY BROTHER AND I WERE NINE AND FIVE AND HE WOULD TAKE US TO LOOK FOR WOOD ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD AT THE NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION WHICH IS WHERE WE GREW UP AND I WOULD GO OUT THERE TO FIND FREE FIREWOOD, AND HE WOULD TURN THE THERMOSTAT DOWN TO 45 DEGREES AT NIGHT, THIS IS IN A CITY WHERE IT WOULD EASILY BE 30, 40 BELOW AT NIGHT.

>> SO YOU ACTUALLY WORKED AS A LUMBERJACK, TELL ME ABOUT THOSE JOBS AND HOW IT AFFECTED HOW YOU HIRED PEOPLE WHEN YOU GOT TO BE RICH AND FAMOUS.

>> WELL, I NEVER GOT TO BE RICH AND FAMOUS BUT IT DID AFFECT THE WAY I HIRED PEOPLE, MY PARENTS AND A LOT OF THEIR FRIENDS SENT THE KIDS OUT WEST TO TOUGHEN THEM UP AND IF YOU COULD, GET A JOB AS A LINEMAN FOR THE RAILROAD.

I WENT OUT AND WORKED FOR SIX MONTHS FOR THE CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILROAD OUT ON THE SASKATCHEWAN PRAIRIE, I LIVED IN A BOXCAR WITH 11 OTHER GUYS, MOST OF THEM HAD MINOR CRIMINAL RECORDS, THEY HAD A SPOT OF TROUBLE GROWING UP.

AND I OVERCAME MY FEAR OF HEIGHTS AND LEARN HOW TO CLIMB TELEGRAPH POLES AND I HAD ONE OF THE MOST GREAT EXPERIENCES OF MY LIFE AND I ADORED ALL THE GUYS I WORKED WITH.

SO WHEN I HIRED PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN ASSISTANCE WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG, RATHER THAN SILVERPLATED INTERNSHIPS, I LOOKED FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED IN RESTAURANTS, WORKED AT A DUDE RANCH OR DONE SOMETHING WITH THEIR HANDS, AND I DO THINK THAT IF YOU COULD HANDLE, IF YOU ARE A WAITER OR WAITRESS AND YOU CAN HANDLE THREE OR FOUR TABLES OF DIFFICULT DINERS, EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE IS GOING TO COME EASY.

>> WE HAVE ENJOYED TIME TOGETHER AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHEN THE GOING WAS GOOD, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR TIME WHEN YOU WERE THERE.

>> I ARRIVED FROM CANADA, IT WAS IN THE FALL BUT IT WAS STILL WARM AND I ONLY HAD A REALLY WARM CLOTHING COMING FROM CANADA, I HAD AN OLD BLAZER AND I WORE IT TO A MEETING AND SOMEBODY AT THE MEETING ASKED IF I WORKED AS A DOORMAN.

SO I WENT BACK THAT NIGHT AND WITH A RAZOR BLADE, I SEWED THE CREST OFF MY JACKET AND IT LEFT A DARK PATCH BECAUSE THE REST OF THE JACKET HAD FADED AND I LOOKED EVEN MORE FOOLISH BUT IT WAS EXHILARATING FOR ME, I MEAN THE REST OF YOU GUYS, ALL OF YOU WERE INCREDIBLY TALENTED AND MUCH SMARTER THAN THE PEOPLE.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT TEENY CAME IN WITH AT THE TIME?

>> IT WAS YOU, CURTIS, A PULITZER PRIZE WINNER AND CHIEF BOOK CRITIC OF THE NEW YORK TIMES, THERE WAS THE WONDERFUL WRITER, JIM KELLY WHO BECAME THE EDITOR OF TIMES, STEVE SMITH THAT BECAME THE EDITOR OF U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT.

WHO AM I MISSING?

FRANK RICH BECAME THE CHIEF EDITOR FOR THE TIMES.

>> I ALWAYS THOUGHT YOU WERE THE INSIDER AND OUTSIDER, YOU COULD PLAY BOTH ROLES, DID YOU FEEL THAT WAY AT THE TIME?

>> I FELT LIKE AN OUTSIDER BUT I WAS DYING TO GET INTO THE MELTING POT AND JUST MELT, I WAS TRYING TO GET RID OF MY CANADIAN ISMS, I TRY TO DRESS LIKE AN AMERICAN, AND I JUST WANTED TO FIT IN WITH YOU.

>> ONE OF THE SUBTITLES FOR THIS BOOK COULD HAVE BEEN EXPENSE ACCOUNTS I HAVE KNOWN.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR EXPENSE ACCOUNT AT THE TIME.

>> WELL, IT WAS THE SAME AS YOURS AND THE FACT IS I HAD NEVER HAD ONE BEFORE AND TO BE IN YOUR 20s PAYING $200 PER MONTH RENT IN NEW YORK AND HAVING AN EXPENSE ACCOUNT, I FELT LIKE I WAS IN HEAVEN AND I DIDN'T COOK A MEAL FOR THE FIRST FIVE YEARS.

I DON'T THINK I TURNED ON MY OVEN ONCE.

I DON'T THINK I KNEW HOW TO TURN ON MY OVEN.

SO TO BE ABLE TO GO TO RESTAURANTS AND I REMEMBER IN THOSE DAYS, YOU RARELY WENT OUT FOR LUNCH WITH ONE OR TWO PEOPLE THAT YOU DIDN'T SPLIT A BOTTLE OF WINE AND TO ME IT WAS JUST ABSOLUTE NIRVANA.

>> WAS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THAT THAT WE SHOULD HAVE RAINED BACK KNOWING THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT IN THE FUTURE?

>> NO, IT WOULDN'T HAVE CHANGED A THING, FIRST OFF THE EXPENSES WERE SUCH A SMALL LINE ITEM IN THE OVERALL COST.

I THINK THAT IS AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT, MAINTAINING STAFF AND KEEPING STAFF HAPPY AND COMMITTED.

THEN I WENT TO CONNIE NATH WHERE THE EXPENSES WERE EXPONENTIALLY GREATER BUT, HE WASN'T JUST THROWING THE MONEY OUT THE WINDOW, HE WANTED TO MAKE IT THE DOMINANT MAGAZINE PUBLISHER IN AMERICA AND HE DID.

>> AND HE DID IT, WHICH HELPED DEFINE YOUR VANITY FAIR LOOK AND FEEL.

>> 100%, SHE WAS HER PRINCIPAL PHOTOGRAPHER AND I REMEMBER ONE TIME WE WERE A QUARTER MILLION DOLLARS AWAY FROM WHAT SHE WANTED IN HER CONTRACT AND WHAT WE WANTED TO PAY HER AND I MENTIONED THIS AND HE SAID, LET'S JUST PAY IT, I DON'T WANT TO NICKEL AND DIME HER.

>> I LOVE IT WHEN NICKEL AND DIME IS REFERRED TO $6000 PER YEAR.

I USED TO WALK DOWN THE HALLS AND I WOULD SEE YOU AND KURT HUDDLED TOGETHER AND YOU WERE INVENTING SPY MAGAZINE, WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD, WHY DID YOU DECIDE OKAY, WE WANT TO GET OUT OF TIME AND INVENT A NEW FORM OF MAGAZINE?

>> EVERYBODY ELSE SEEMED TO BE DOING VERY WELL AND I KNEW THAT I WASN'T CUT OUT TO BE TIME MATERIAL.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> I JUST WASN'T IVY LEAGUE, I WASN'T AS BUTTON-DOWN, I WASN'T AS GOOD OF A WRITER, SO I COULD SORT OF READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL AND I THOUGHT, I HAD THIS IDEA FOR A MAGAZINE AND THEN I APPROACHED JIM KELLY FIRST BUT I THINK HE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE THE EDITOR AT ONE POINT AND THEN I APPROACHED KURT AND HE WAS IN RIGHT-OF-WAY SO THAT WAS OVER 10 MONTHS, WE PLANNED OUT THE ENTIRE MAGAZINE.

>> YOU SAID YOU HAD AN IDEA FOR A MAGAZINE, I LOVE SPY BUT TELL ME, WHAT WAS THE IDEA BEHIND IT?

>> JUST A FUNNY, SATIRICAL FACT- BASED MAGAZINE ABOUT NEW YORK CITY WHICH WAS THEN AS YOU KNOW, JUST CAME OUT OF BANKRUPTCY OR NEAR BANKRUPTCY, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN IT WAS AWASH WITH THIS NEW MONEY COMING FROM INVESTMENT BANKERS, THEIR WIVES WERE THE LADIES WHO MUNCHED, AND THE CITY WAS ALIVE WITH A LOT OF CHARACTERS SHOWING OFF THE MONEY THEY HAD AND THAT WAS GREAT FOR JOURNALISM.

AND WE WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT THAT.

>> AND IT WAS BASICALLY POKING FUN AT THIS ELITE, LIKE THE TRADITION WAY BACK ON MAGAZINES.

LET'S START WITH DONALD TRUMP, HOW DID HE BEGIN TO BE A STUDIED FINGERED BULGARIAN?

>> SHORT FINGERED.

I WAS ALWAYS IN NEED OF MONEY BECAUSE I HAD A NUMBER OF KIDS, SO I TOOK IT FROM SIMON TO WRITE A STORY ABOUT HIM, AND IT WAS HIS FIRST NATIONAL EXPOSURE, SO I SPENT THREE WEEKS WITH HIM AND HE WAS VERY EXCITED TO HAVE ME AROUND.

TO BE HONEST, I FOUND HIM CHARMING, IN A SALESMAN TYPE WAY.

HE USES YOUR NAME EVERY THREE OR FOUR SENTENCES, LIKE AN ALUMINUM SIDING SALESMAN WOULD USE IT.

I THOUGHT HIS HANDS LOOKED TOO SMALL FOR HIS BODY, AND SPY MAGAZINE LATER ON, WE CALLED HIM A SHORT FINGERED BULGARIAN THAT TRULY DROVE HIM CRAZY.

>> AND HOW DID DONALD TRUMP REACT OVER THE YEARS ON THIS SHORT FINGERED BULGARIAN?

>> HE WOULD SEND ME NASTY NOTES, THAT HE THREATENED TO SUE US, THEN WHEN I BECAME THE EDITOR OF VANITY FAIR, THE TRANSACTIONAL DONALD TRUMP, HE REALIZED HE BETTER CALM THIS FEUD DOWN, WE TRIED TO BECOME FRIENDS, I HAD DINNER WITH HIM AT MAR-A-LAGO, HE INVITED ME TO ONE OF HIS WEDDINGS BUT IT JUST COULDN'T HOLD, SO I WOULD WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT HIM IN VANITY FAIR AND HE STARTED TWEETING HORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT ME, HE WOULD CALL ME SLOPPY AND DOPEY.

HE SAID MY WIFE THOUGHT I WAS A TOTAL LOSER.

HE SAID VANITY FAIR WAS LOSING STEAM, THE FOOD AT THE RESTAURANT WAS TERRIBLE.

AND I FRAMED THESE TWEETS AND HAD THEM ALL UP INSIDE MY WALL FOR VISITORS TO SEE WHEN THEY CAME TO VISIT ME.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT HIM BEING TRANSACTIONAL, EVEN THOUGH YOU POKED FUN AT HIM, ONCE YOU WERE POWERFUL, HE WAS TRYING TO MAKE IT UP.

THAT IS THE THEME OF THIS BOOK, ALL THESE PEOPLE WHEN YOU ARE AT SPY, THEY DIDN'T ALL WANT TO BE TRANSACTIONAL AND MAKE IT UP TO YOU.

>> THAT WAS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE CHAIR I WAS SITTING IN, VANITY FAIR I THINK WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO THEM AND I DID MY BEST TO GIVE THEM A FAIR SHAKE BUT THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN HOLLYWOOD HAD A DRAMATIC FALL AND WAITED TWO OR THREE STORIES ON THAT, AND I USED TO SAY, VANITY FAIR IS THE MAGAZINE THAT IF YOU ROSE TO SUCCESS, IT WOULD BE THE MAGAZINE YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE A STORY WRITTEN ABOUT AND IF YOU FELT FROM THOSE HEIGHTS, AND IT WOULD BE THE LEAST FAVORITE MAGAZINE YOU WOULD WANT IT TO BE WRITTEN ABOUT.

>> HOW DID VANITY FAIR COME ALONG?

>> THERE WAS A PERIOD BETWEEN SPY AND VANITY FAIR AND I EDITED THIS NEWSPAPER CALLED THE NEW YORK OBSERVER, IT WAS A BROADSHEET ON SALMON COLORED PAPER, VERY WELL DESIGNED BUT, I TOOK THE JOB AND I THOUGHT I COULD MAKE IT A THING AT SOME POINT, LIKE READABLE.

AND AT SOME POINT, A MUST-READ.

ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN MONTHS IN, I STARTED SENDING COMPLEMENT TREE COPIES TO FRIENDS OF MINE THAT I MET OVER THE YEARS AND I LOOKED TOO A LOT OF THEM THAT WERE EDITORS IN EUROPE AND CYE NEWHOUSE STOPPED OFF IN LONDON AND PARIS AND HE SAW COPIES OF THE NEW YORK OBSERVER AND EVERYBODY RETURNED TO AMERICA UNDER THE MISGUIDED IMPRESSION THAT THIS WAS AN INTERNATIONAL HIT, SO HE CALLED ME AND ASKED IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TWO MAGAZINES, I THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO SEE SOMEBODY LIKE GQ OR DETAILS, NEITHER OF WHICH I COULD IMPROVE ON AND HE OFFERED ME THE NEW YORKER OR VANITY FAIR AND WE HAD SPENT FIVE YEARS MAKING FUN OF THE WRITING STYLE, THE EDITOR, THE CONTRIBUTORS OF VANITY FAIR, SO WE SETTLED ON THE NEW YORKER AND I SPENT THE NEXT TWO WEEKS WORKING ON A PLAN, I ONLY TOLD JIM KELLY, MY AGENT AND MY FAMILY ABOUT THIS.

AND THE DAY THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ANNOUNCED, THEY SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE THE OTHER MAGAZINE.

AND I THOUGHT, I DON'T HAVE A PLAN FOR THAT BUT I SAID I WILL TAKE THE JOB BECAUSE WE DESPERATELY NEEDED THE EXTRA MONEY.

AND THE FIRST TWO YEARS WERE ROCKY BECAUSE THE PEOPLE AT THE MAGAZINE, I DON'T THINK THEY FULLY TRUSTED ME BECAUSE OF SPY BUT I THOUGHT IF I'M JUST MYSELF AND I TREAT THEM FAIRLY AND COMPASSIONATELY, IT'LL WORK OUT AND I WENT TO YEARS WITHOUT FIRING ANYBODY AND IN ONE WEEK I LET THREE PEOPLE GO WHICH WAS MORE PEOPLE THAN I HAD LET GO IN MY ENTIRE LIFE AND THINGS SORT OF CHANGED, PEOPLE STARTED TO COME AROUND TO THE WAY I WANTED THE MAGAZINE TO BE AND WE TRIED TO CHANGE THE HOUSE STYLE OF WRITING AND I WANTED PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER IN A FRIENDLY, RESPECTFUL MANNER.

AND FOR THE NEXT 23 YEARS, IT PRETTY MUCH WAS THAT.

>> AND YOU HAD SOME OF THE BEST WRITERS IN THE BUSINESS AND YOU JUST KIND OF RECRUITED BIG NAMES AND GAVE THEM LONGFORM, TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF THEM.

>> I WENT AFTER WRITERS, I WANTED CLEVER WRITERS TO BE COLUMNISTS BUT ALSO WANTED WRITERS WHO COULD WRITE BIG NARRATIVE STORIES THAT HAD A BEGINNING, MIDDLE AND END AND BETWEEN 8000 WORDS AND 20,000 WORDS BUT THEY HAD TO BE ABLE TO TELL A STORY.

LIKE MICHAEL HARE AND SEBASTIAN YOUNGER AND MICHAEL LEWIS AND MARIE BRENNER, EVENTUALLY WE HAD ABOUT 50 WRITERS ON CONTRACT.

>> WHY IS THAT DESIRE FOR BRILLIANT, LONGFORM NARRATIVE FALLEN OUT?

>> IT HASN'T, IT'S JUST SO EXPENSIVE BECAUSE, A WRITER HAS TO SPEND THREE MONTHS, SOMETIMES HALF A YEAR ON A STORY AND GO TO MAKE A LIVING AND WE COULD AFFORD TO PAY THEM DURING THAT PERIOD.

LIKE DOMINIC DONE, HE SPENT ALMOST A YEAR IN LOS ANGELES COVERING THE O.J.

SIMPSON TRIAL AND IT WAS A BIG THING FOR VANITY FAIR, HE WAS A HUGE STAR AND THAT PROBABLY COST US $1 MILLION PER YEAR OR MORE FOR THOSE STORIES.

>> YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH ANNA, CAREFULLY WOVEN THROUGHOUT THE BOOK, TELL ME ABOUT HER.

>> FIRST OF ALL, WE WERE VERY GOOD FRIENDS, I WROTE FOR HER FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, SHE INTRODUCED ME TO SI , SHE BROUGHT ME INTO CONDE NAST , SHE WAS A COZY COLLEAGUE AND WE HAD A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

I THINK SHE STARTED LIVING UP TO THIS NUCLEAR WINTER REPUTATION, I DIDN'T FIND THAT TO BE THE CASE UNTIL MUCH LATER IN OUR RELATIONSHIP.

BUT EVENTUALLY SHE BECAME A LITTLE UNPREDICTABLE.

WHEN I MET HER, I WAS NEVER SURE WHEN I SAW HER WHETHER SHE WOULD TREAT ME LIKE ONE OF HER BEST FRIENDS OR THE PARKING LOT ATTENDANT.

SO WHEN SHE CAME THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF CONDE NAST , SHE MADE AN ATTEMPT TO TAKE OVER HALF MY STAFF AND PUT THEM UNDER HER AND THAT PUT A CHILL ON THE RELATIONSHIP AND A CHILL ON MY TIME AT CONDE NAST, IT WAS COMING UP TO MY 25th YEAR AT VANITY FAIR AND I THOUGHT IT IS TIME TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR , THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

>> "AMANPOUR & CO" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT , JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING LEAR, SYLVIA A AND SIMON PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND NIKKI STRAUSS, MARK GLESSNER, J MELVIN, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

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