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A new roof shows up on a small, taxing district commissioner's house.

A buddy gets a lucrative contract for work that can be done in an hour.

A local stream is polluted.

And for a little taste of the action, regulators let it slide.

If the government is handing out money, there's always a chance for corruption.

But legally required open government measures are supposed to help discourage that kind of behavior until they're legislated away.

Every now and then, though, somebody gets wise and the corruption is rooted out.

Those kinds of stories are at the heart of independent journalist and Syracuse University fellow Miranda Spivack.

Book.

Backroom deals in our backyards.

How government secrecy harms our communities and the local heroes fighting back.

Author Miranda Spivak is next on northwest now.

Music march is when we typically celebrate Sunshine Week with an annual program about open government.

But this year on northwest now, March has been open Government Month, with this being our fourth and final program dedicated to your right to know.

Miranda Spivack was the keynote speaker at the Washington Coalition for Open Government's annual Sunshine Breakfast earlier this month, where emceed and received the organization's coveted Andersen Award the more than 14 programs we've done.

On the threats to government transparency.

Spivack works at the intersection of open government and journalism and citizenship, and her debut book, Backroom Deals in Our Backyards.

When the Studs and Idle Terkel Award, which is given annually to new nonfiction authors who explore social justice and the lives of ordinary people.

Miranda, thanks so much for coming to northwest now.

Great to have a conversation here on our sunshine month.

Edition of northwest Now, one of several programs we're doing about the importance of government transparency.

I want to start with the fact that you were the keynote speaker for the Washington Coalition of Open Government's recent Sunshine Breakfast, but I also want to mention, too, that you're the vice president of the Washington, DC Open Government Coalition.

Talk a little bit about the similarities.

And also, you maintain that this kind of work is is more important than ever in all jurisdictions.

Why so?

Well, I think we've seen emanating from Washington and from the Trump administration, a lot of problems about transparency.

Federal and state governments and local governments have never been great about adhering to open records and open meetings laws.

But I think we're hitting a new low.

Part of that is because the federal government has been basically ditching data all over the place.

Health data, data about, police officers with bad records, data about diseases.

And so we are in a really troublesome point right now.

And so really, what these state and local coalitions do is more important than ever, because most states are still collecting information, whether they're making it accessible or not is another question, but at least they're not throwing away data sets that are hugely important to the operation of a healthy democracy.

Let me ask you this question.

And it's vexed me for a long time, and it's a simple one.

And the question is why?

And, you know, where do you think this push for secrecy comes from?

Just so you know, you mentioned the Trump administration here in Washington state.

This is emanating from the left, the the PRA and the OPM up here in Washington state are under attack by by, a democratically dominated, state government over the past year.

So it's a, you know, in a twisted kind of way.

It's one of the few bipartisan issues out there.

Miranda.

Why is it is it is.

And Washington state is far from unique.

It is, I think an equal opportunity discriminator, which is to say the left, the right, the middle, whoever's in power often wants to keep secrets, and that's on the government side.

A lot of the secrets, though, are being kept because big corporations who do business either as sort of a proxy for the government or who have government contracts or who want to build a data center or whatever, they are also really, really pressuring governments, especially at the state and local level, to keep information from the public because they don't want to get, encounter a lot of opposition.

And I don't know, you know, the data center thing is happening all over the country, these big behemoth gas, I mean, water guzzling and electric guzzling things that we need, or so we're told.

We need to, you know, hang onto our cell phones and other other things.

But, you know, there's pressure from all, all sides.

I would totally agree with you on that.

It so happens, though, that in DC, which is setting an example, the federal government setting an example for the rest of the country, this kind of secrecy is being just validated and, you know, used with, with abandon.

You talked about the data centers, and I'm glad you brought that up.

I am hearing that there are a lot of NDAs being signed.

A lot of these small rural jurisdictions where these sites are attempting to site to use that word in two different ways.

Are are very much operating behind closed doors and trying to cut these deals without a lot of public input.

And we see this and I've been covering local government forever, this sort of kabuki theater where deals are cut.

And then before you know it, your consent to consent agendas come and go and before you know it, guess what?

Final action.

Here's the vote.

And a lot of people like what?

What are you talking about?

What?

What's your final vote?

What are you.

What's been going on?

I need to see the records.

Oh, I'm sorry, those are NDAs.

Is this.

Is this something that sent me straight on this?

Is this the reality that I perceive it to be?

Yes, I think it is.

An NDA is of course are non-disclosure agreements.

And what's really been kind of amazing to me is that in the data center march across the country, these big companies Amazon, Microsoft, you name it, the companies that build the data centers whose names we don't know as well.

They are demanding NDAs from public employees, elected officials and saying, you know, if you don't sign an NDA like this, a non-disclosure agreement, we're not even going to consider coming to your town.

And they claim, and this is a whole nother issue, that you could probe at great length.

But they claim, of course, that these data centers will create jobs.

That's arguable.

They will create construction jobs, but the actual operation of a data center does not, involve a lot of jobs.

So you know the idea some states are really looking at outlawing NDAs for public officials because after all, they are our proxies in these deals with these private companies, and they're using public money, or they're giving away public tax breaks.

You know, we the people should have some knowledge ahead of the deals so that we can examine them along with the elected officials.

And just to reiterate, the title of your book, Backroom Deals in Our Backyards.

You called cronyism and corruption and the secrecy that surrounds it, quote A hidden dimension of American politics, end quote.

I'd really like your perspective on that, too.

With this question, do you think that this this bias towards secrecy and backroom deals is the exception or the norm?

Well, I think it's you know, this is a complicated question I want to tell.

I will tell you why.

Because most of us.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because for years and years and years, the kind of national record keeping of state secrets, as in secrets at the state and local level, there really is no way to track it nationally, and there still is not.

And that's one of the reasons I wrote the book, is because I think it well, you may know in your state and people will know in other states about problems that they're encountering and information blockades they are encountering.

The reality is it is happening nationally and we don't really have good data to to suggest that, you know, there is we'll see how it goes now in Washington.

But for years, there has been decent data about how effective the freedom of federal Freedom of Information Act is.

So there has been government data about that.

And, you know, the answer is not super effective.

But, but in terms of how, you know, is it the norm at the state level?

I believe it is.

I found five really telling examples that tell the stories in my book.

But everybody I talked to says, that's happening in my community.

You know, we the same kind of thing is happening.

So anecdotally, I would say, yes.

I don't have the data to back up that claim.

Fair enough.

Let's talk a little bit about some of the stories in your book.

These accidental activists, as you call them, people very much I might like, I might add, like the winners of what's called the key award that the Washington Coalition for Open Government hands out from time to time, people who are maybe journalists or professionals whose job it is to, you know, hold the officials accountable and to dig into the records.

But a lot of time, people who just kind of find themselves in a circumstance in their neighborhood or in their local town, something happens and here they go.

They're off to the races.

And before you know it, they're one of these acts of accidental activists.

You have stories from, Hooksett Falls, New York, Wooster, mass.

Uniontown, Alabama.

Bethesda, Maryland, New York.

Talk about maybe 1 or 2 of those stories and how how is it people find themselves in these pickles trying to get to the truth of things through this veil of secrecy?

Yeah.

Well, one thing that I thought about for a long, long time was that I, as a journalist and at the time was at the Washington Post when it was a robust news operation.

Let's not talk about the present, but, I was having a lot of trouble myself as a reporter and as an editor.

I know what the law is.

I know what I'm entitled to get.

I know that these governments were holding out on me, and I had good legal help, right?

In my own newsroom, very uncommon, especially at smaller news operations.

And I was having trouble.

So it always occurred to me, what about people who have absolutely no background in either, you know, looking for public records?

If you ask a lot of people who are not journalists or not lawyers, what they're entitled to get from their state or local governments, they're going to be very surprised that there's actually a law that gives them a lot of rights to information.

And so I wanted to find those people because I thought that their stories would tell a much larger story, which is at the state and local level, things are not very transparent, and it is harmful to public accountability, to the, you know, tracking the expenditure of public funds.

And and fundamentally, it's harmful to democracy.

So the stories are what I would call kitchen table stories, poisoned drinking water in a public, in a community that's who's sick falls, New York toxins in firefighter protective gear that you know, this person, Diane Cotter discovered on her own with no background in science or anything else, problems with algorithms in the criminal justice system that parole boards, judges, bail commissioners use with with abandon.

And they don't really understand why the algorithm is telling them either to set bail, let this person out, whatever.

And they just go ahead and accept it.

And then when you try to get into the black box of what these, software systems are and how they're being used, you will bump up against the trade secrets exemption to public disclosure, which every state has.

And so here you have decision making occurring with public funds and you can't find out why.

There's also another story that really blows a lot of people's minds when I tell them.

And that is about dangerous roads.

And Washington State is actually figures in this story.

There are most state, departments of transportation if you want to get the data, documents, studies, engineering studies, whatever, because they've turned down your red stoplight or your red light, you know, you're a stop sign that you and your community want or speed bumps.

And they're saying, no, it's not needed.

It's not needed.

And you want to say, okay.

On what basis?

Because we have different data.

We think there are a lot of accidents here.

And they'll say, we can't give you that.

Yeah, I'm like, what?

And that fight, that's an incredible fight that only two states, New York State and Kansas, because there were lawsuits challenging that, have to give that information out.

But Washington State doesn't.

California it doesn't.

It's crazy.

And so you have state governments making decisions basically with no oversight from the public and no opportunity for the public to get information to try to fight back.

I know your focus is national in your book and your career has been, but swinging back here to Washington State, much like you did with the story about, the data for, for road safety, there is a phenomena happening in Washington state right now.

The legislature is claiming privilege that their work product in their process, should be happening behind closed doors.

And then we come out for the vote and gave it passed or it failed with really no ability to look at what's happening behind the curtain.

Have you heard of legislative privilege?

What are your impressions of it?

Talk a little bit about that and what your take is on it.

Yeah.

To tell you, Washington state's legislature is behind because most states, most state legislatures claim exemption from public records requirements and public meetings, and so does the US Congress.

And so, yes, you can get some information from the executive branch from the governor's office.

You should be able to get the governor's calendar, for example, at least after the fact, to see who he or she met with.

But the legislators who are, as you know, are subject to intense lobbying from big financial interests over millions of different kinds of issues.

You can't find out who they met with.

You know, the best you can do is look at their campaign finance reports, which should be public, but legislative privilege is widespread.

I would call it an epidemic around the United States.

And the fact that Washington state hasn't had it, they've been in the vanguard of openness because most state legislatures exempt themselves from any kind of scrutiny.

It sounds like then I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's something valuable we have.

That would be a shame to lose.

I think I would be happy to concur with that statement.

Here's a question for you and this a little more philosophical.

How did the political culture, in your view, when it comes to secrecy and transparency and open government?

Get so broken after Watergate?

You know this when our when our big act, passed and, and, you know, this state was really on a roll and like you mentioned, at the vanguard of, accountability and openness.

And I'm wondering over time, do you think that people who put themselves out there as public servants go in trustworthy?

And, you know, Mr.

Smith goes to Washington and then get corrupted?

Or do you feel like now they're kind of people who were looking for an angle?

They've been maybe crooks on the outside, and they go in to fulfill and they see an angle that they can work and, hire their crony friends at the, at the irrigation district, put an extra roof on their shed, with with fire department.

Volunteer fire department.

These are all stories I've covered.

Volunteer fire department funds.

What is the truth of that?

Who who are these people?

Do they do they start great and get corrupted, or do they?

Are they looking from an angle from the get go?

You know, I think it's probably 5050 on that.

And I also would say that the advent of the internet has been both a blessing and a curse, because the kind of, reputation damaging trashing that can go on, on the internet, I think has become very scary to public officials.

And, you know, I mean, you can how did that guy in Minnesota find the home addresses of the the state legislator and her husband?

I mean, it's there's so much information out there.

So, you know, I think on the one hand, I will give public officials a little bit of grace because I think they are entitled to be worried about how their comments can be taken out of context or conveyed.

I do think a lot of people go into public service, very idealistic, and I don't think that they are necessarily corrupt.

I think there are a couple of issues that you have to really think about.

One is, and I always told young reporters this, it would come to me and say, oh, you know, there's this conspiracy going on over here and blah, blah, blah.

And I would say, hey, never underestimate incompetence.

Start with it.

And then, you know, I think that I think what happens is, especially in part time legislature legislatures and in city councils, you know, where people think many of those are not full time jobs.

So people have they're giving up a lot of their time, school boards, they're giving up a lot of their time.

The compensation and in smaller communities certainly is not great.

They have to hold other jobs.

I think it's I think it's a hard thing to do, and I think we have to be mindful of that.

Yes.

You know, that many people do get corrupted.

Many people.

I'm sure there are people who go in saying, oh, this is a gravy train that I can, milk.

Mixing my metaphors there.

But, you know, I think it's I think we're we want good public servants.

We want to reward them.

We don't want them to feel completely besieged.

And I don't know how, given the internet age and social media, I think I think we have to be forthright that this is a real problem.

And so, you know, there's sort of a defensive crouch that people get into.

And then there's fear.

I mean, they don't they aren't transparent.

They they are afraid, you know, they're going to have, protesters on their front lawn, whatever.

And so I think I think we're in a tough place.

I think as journalists, we ought to be mindful of that.

But I also think, you know, there's plenty of room for corruption.

I would say, here's an alternative thesis that I've always kind of contemplated in terms of the mental position of an elected official.

And the pushback on that is maybe the solution.

Maybe the antidote to that is radical transparency, where your here's who I'm talking to.

Here are the things I've considered.

Here's the money.

I'm taking.

I don't know, I see a ICB and I think we're going to try B it may not work.

I'm going to give it my best shot and let's give it a, let's give it a spin and see how it works.

It seems to me kind of taking that mental position of, of hey, I'm an open book.

And here's my thought process.

Might be able to short circuit a lot of this.

I would agree with you.

I think the one problem with that, that the good public officials will tell you is that their ability to have candid conversations, they feel like if everything's out in the public, you know, it's hard to be able to address the nuances.

You know, I don't know.

I mean, you can certainly overwhelm the public with lots of information, and then it's sort of hard to cull through.

But, you know, maybe that's okay.

You know, I am for much greater transparency than not.

I just want to be realistic, about sort of where we are ultimately, when you take all of the stories that are in your book, backroom deals in our backyards, in your career as a reporter and advocate for open government and, and a transparent government, when you take all that in and put it into and call it a quarter, you're putting in a machine, the gumball that you get out at the bottom.

Is that ultimately something that's optimistic or pessimistic about the open and high trust society that we've created?

I'm, I you know, I'm I'm a little pessimistic.

Where are you where.

Where do you where are all your experiences and investigations lead you ultimately.

Yeah.

Well, you know, the interesting thing to me is, as I sort of did a lot of research for this book, went around the country trying to find neophytes at open government efforts and found them, is that I think there are plenty of people out there, both on the elected official side, within government agencies as staffers, etc.

and of course, the public who really want to do the right thing.

And I think that's good.

I think that it has been very difficult for members of the public.

I think we have to do a much better job educating the public.

We meaning journalists, governments, etc., about what you can do, how to go about it, how to go about it in a polite way.

I haven't at the end of my book, there's a whole how to chapter about, you know, what you're entitled to, how you can build a network of support, including among local, elected officials and and how ultimately, as you've said, I think more openness is ultimately better for society.

And we can see how our money is being spent and we can see how decisions are being made and that that's good and a healthy democracy if we're to remain a healthy democracy.

So I you know, I would if I am pessimistic, but I think there's a lot that can be done to bring people around to understanding the value of greater government openness.

I think, you know, my next question was going to be, what can average people do?

But I think you really hit the nail on the head when you talked about getting educated.

Finding some resources, building that network, to investigate a local problem or to solve a problem within their, within their community.

What's kind of the what would the first step be?

I mean, if somebody is watching this and, and they're saying to themselves, you know, I've often wondered here in Washington State why we never got a stop sign down there at, you know, what is going on with that?

What is kind of the the first step in that, and I've approached this show over the years, is kind of thinking to myself, the first step needs to be that people need to be aware that we have a pre and an open PMA, that they are open may they are entitled to this information, to these documents and to be a part of the process.

What is what do you see as kind of that gateway step, that first step.

If people want to become these accidental activists or at least look into something.

Well, I think really two things.

One is what you said, which is people should understand that they have, certain rights to open records and open meetings.

And I think some of these state coalitions can enhance their own work by translating this all into very understandable English, which is to say, you know, the city council has a meeting, you can be there.

There should be a time for public comment if they, talk about documents from the dias, once they talk about a document, it becomes a public document.

You should be able to get a copy of that.

If it's an issue you are interested in, I and then the other part of that, I think besides the education and the education and I think five bullets, you know, simple, simple, simple, this is what you can do, is to tell people to show up.

I mean, I am temporarily living in the Bay Area in Berkeley, California, and I looked up to see how many commissions that city has that people can serve on as volunteers.

Obviously, volunteer work means you've got to have some free time.

And but, you know, there's a lot of different ways you can show up to make a difference in your community.

You can certainly show up at city, town council meetings, school board meetings, whatever, and just listen and learn, and ask questions and let them know you're watching because frankly, without with the decline of local news organizations around the country, which I think is a huge problem for holding governments accountable, we need way more boots on the ground from, you know, non journalists, non lawyers, but people who are just interested and want to make a difference but showing up and of course voting which you know everybody says oh my one vote doesn't matter.

It matters.

Last 15 seconds naked self-promotion.

Where can focus find your book and a website if you have one?

Yeah, I do have I have a website.

It's Miranda spivak.com, and it's Spivak is Spivak.

Most people leave out the Si.

So that's one thing.

My publisher is the new press.

They have the book on the website also.

And then I would really encourage people because I am, a believer in small business.

Go to bookshop.org if you don't know about that.

It's the non Amazon for ordering books.

And it supports local independent bookstores.

Or better yet show up at your local independent bookstore and buy the book.

Regular viewers of this program know we've done a lot on open government.

The bottom line Washington's public records and open meeting laws are under attack.

And it's up to you to get involved, to preserve the transparency that voters so overwhelmingly mandated back in 1972.

My thanks to Miranda Spivak for her work with the Washington Coalition for Open Government, and her time here today on Northwest Now.

I hope this program got you thinking and talking.

You can find this program on the web@kbtc.org.

Stream it through the PBS app or listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

That's going to do it for this edition of Northwest.

Now until next time, I'm Tom Layson.

Thanks for watching.

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