♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY," HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> GAZA'S AL SHIFA HOSPITAL NOW THE EPICENTER OF THIS WAR.

FINALLY, THE PREMATURE BABIES ARE EVACUATED.

WE HAVE A REPORT.

AND WITH ISRAEL UNDER PRESSURE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE HAMAS HAS A MAJOR COMMAND CENTER UNDERNEATH, WE TALK THE DAY AFTER WITH FORMER PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK.

THEN, A DEATH IN MALTA.

THE SON OF A MURDERED JOURNALIST ON CONTINUING HIS MOTHER'S FIGHT FOR JUSTICE.

PLUS, THE WAR ON INFORMATION.

HARI LOOKS AT THE WORRYING RISE IN HATE SPEECH ON SOCIAL MEDIA, WITH CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY NORA BENAVIDES.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

A DEATH ZONE.

THAT'S HOW THE W.H.O.

DESCRIBES GAZA'S AL SHIFA HOSPITAL, AFTER FACT-FINDING MISSIONS THERE.

IT IS NOW THE FOCAL POINT OF ISRAEL'S WAR ON HAMAS.

THE HEAD OF THE ORGANIZATION HAS CONDEMNED THE ATTACK ON THE END NEEZ YAN HOSPITAL IN GAZA, WHICH KILLED 12 PEOPLE, INCLUDING PATIENTS, SAYING THAT HE IS APPALLED.

ISRAEL SAYS IT WAS RESPONDING TO FIRE FROM WITHIN THAT HOSPITAL.

AND IT IS INCREASINGLY UNDER INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE TO PRODUCE CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT HAMAS USES AL SHIFA AS A MAJOR COMMAND CENTER.

SOMETHING HAMAS AND HOSPITAL OFFICIALS DENY.

MEANWHILE, ONE WHOLE WEEK SINCE THE WORLD FIRST SAW THEES IMAGES OF DOZENS OF CRITICALLY ILL PREMATURE BABIES, THEY HAVE AT LEAST BEEN EVACUATED FROM AL SHIFA TO EGYPT, WHERE DOCTORS AND NURSES WERE WAITING TO TREAT THEM.

EHUD BARAK WAS CHIEF OF THE GENERAL STAFF OF THE IDF, AND FORMER PRIME MINISTER.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN I JUST START BY ASKING YOU TO -- WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF WHETHER YOUR GOVERNMENT, YOUR MILITARY, HAS DONE A GOOD ENOUGH JOB OF PROVING THEIR CLAIM THAT THERE WAS A MAJOR COMMAND CENTER AND BUNKER UNDER AL SHIFA?

>> IT'S ALREADY KNOWN FOR MANY YEARS THAT THEY HAVE THE BUNKERS, THAT ORIGINALLY WAS BUILT BY ISRAELI CONSTRUCTORS UNDERNEATH SHIFA, WERE USED AS A COMMAND POST OF HAMAS AND A KIND OF JUNCTURE OF TUNNELS, PART OF THIS SYSTEM.

I DON'T KNOW TO SAY TO WHAT EXTENT IT IS A MAJOR -- IT'S PROBABLY NOT THE ONLY KIND OF COMMAND POST, THERE WERE OTHERS UNDER OTHER HOSPITALS OR IN OTHER SENSITIVE PLACES, BUT IT'S FOR SURE HAD BEEN USED BY -- BY HAMAS, EVEN DURING THIS CONFLICT.

>> WHEN YOU SAY IT WAS BUILT BY ISRAELI ENGINEERS, DID YOU MISSPEAK?

>> NO, YOU KNOW, DECADES AGO, WE WERE WANTING THE PLACE, SO, WE HELD THEM, DECADES, MANY DECADES AGO, PROBABLY FOUR DECADES AGO, THAT WE HELPED THEM TO BUILD THESE BUNKERS IN ORDER TO ENABLE MORE -- MORE SPACE FOR THE OPERATION OF THE HOSPITAL WITHIN THE VERY LIMITED SIZE OF THIS COMPOUND.

>> OKAY.

ALL RIGHT.

WELL, THAT'S -- THAT'S SORT OF THROWN ME A LITTLE BIT.

SO, THESE WERE THERE FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, BUT YOU'RE CLAIMING, OR THEY'RE CLAIMING, THAT THEY'RE USED AS A MAJOR COMMAND CENTER.

ANYWAY, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT, AS YET, THEY HAVE NOT SHOWN CONCLUSIVE PROOF OF THAT.

SO, MAY I ASK YOU WHAT YOU -- >> CHRISTIANE -- >> YEAH?

>> IT'S NOT EASY.

WE TAKE CARE NOT TO HURT THE OPERATION OF THE HOSPITAL, SO WE WARNED, FOR MANY DAYS THAT WE ARE GOING TO COME THERE.

THEN WE CAME VERY CAUTIOUSLY IN ORDER TO AVOID LOSS OF LIFE AMONG THE DOCTORS, THE PATIENTS, OR THE NURSES THERE.

SO, AS A RESULT OF IT, HAMAS HAD ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD TO TRY TO CLEAN IT, TO TRY TO ERASE IT, TO TRY TO MAKE IT LESS KIND OF APPARENT, WHEN YOU COME INTO IT, IT WAS IN USE.

BUT WE ARE CONFIDENT.

I CANNOT GO INTO ALL THE INTELLIGENCE WE GOT, WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT FOR YEARS, IT IS ALREADY USED AS A KIND OF MAJOR OR NONMAJOR, BUT AS A COMMAND POST FOR HAMAS ACTIVITIES IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE GAZA STRIP.

>> OKAY, SO, PRIME MINISTER, YOU, AS I SAID, HAVE BEEN DEFENSE MINISTER AND CHIEF OF THE GENERAL STAFF OF THE IDF, YOU'RE A MILITARY GUY, AS WELL AS BEING A MAJOR POLITICAL PERSON.

YOU KNOW, YOU SAY THAT YOU'VE TAKEN A LOT OF CARE, BUT MOST OF THE WORLD, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, BELIEVES, AND HAS SAID, THAT YOU NEED TO TAKE MORE CARE, THAT THERE ARE MORE THAN 11,000 DEAD, INCLUDING AT LEAST 4,000 TO 5,000 CHILDREN, AND WE SEE THESE IMAGES.

SO, I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WOULD YOU HAVE CONDUCTED THIS OPERATION LIKE IT'S BEING CONDUCTED?

>> LOOK, FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE NUMBERS, BUT EVEN IF IT -- HALF OF THE NUMBERS THAT THEY'VE MENTIONED, IT'S A MAJOR DISASTER FOR THOSE PEOPLE, AND WE CANNOT RECOVER THEIR LIVES.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, FOLLOWING THE SLAUGHTERING OF SOME 1,200 PEOPLE, ABDUCTING OF ANOTHER 250, WE HAD TO OPERATE AGAINST THE MILITARY CAPABILITIES OF HAMAS AND ITS CAPACITY TO REIGN OVER THE GAZA STRIP.

THIS CANNOT BE ACCOMPLISHED FROM THE AIR.

SO, WE HAVE TO PLOY BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

THERE IS PROBABLY NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT.

AND I WOULD BASICALLY DO IT THE SAME WAY, I CANNOT GO INTO THE TACTICAL DETAILS, I'M NOT EVEN ACQUAINTED WITH THEM IN THE TIME WHERE WE ARE SPEAK, BUT GIVE AND TAKE, IT'S THE SAME KIND OF OPERATION.

I WANT JUST TO DRAW YOUR ATTENTION, TRY TO THINK, WHAT AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE DONE IF CERTAIN CORNER, THE NORTHERN PART OF MEXICO, AROUND TIJUANA, ONE OF THE SQUARE MILES WERE HELD BY A TERROR ORGANIZATION THAT REIGNED OVER THE AREA AND CERTAIN THANKSGIVING MORNING, THOUSANDS OF THESE TERRORISTS ENTER INTO SAN DIEGO AND MASSACRE 40,000 AMERICANS.

40,000 WITHIN 24 HOURS.

I'M TOTALLY CONFIDENT THAT AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT, AS A COMMANDER IN CHIEF, WOULD ORDER TO ERASE TIJUANA FROM EARTH.

AND I COULD JUSTIFY IT.

>> OKAY.

>> SO, IT -- YOU HAVE TO -- YOU HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH THE FACT THAT WE'VE SUFFERED -- IT'S NOT JUST TERROR, IT'S A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY AND THE MOST BARBARIAN WAY.

YOU CANNOT LET IT STILL EXIST -- >> OKAY.

>> WHEN THE OPERATION IS ABOUT TO END.

>> OKAY, SO, YOU SAY IT'S ABOUT TO END.

OKAY, WELL, WE KNOW WHAT THE UNITED STATES DID IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, SO, WE KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF CIVILIAN DEATH, BUT THAT ALSO HAD MASSIVE BLOW-BACK AND MASSIVE CRITICISM FROM THE INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE AND THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, THE PEOPLE LEFT IN THOSE PLACES, ARE ESSENTIALLY -- WERE THE TERRORISTS OF TODAY, ISIS AND THE TALIBAN AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT.

THE BLOW-BACK WAS HUGE.

SO, MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THE INCREASED RADICALIZATION AFTER THIS?

AND DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HAMAS CAN BE ACTUALLY ELIMINATED?

>> LOOK, I'M CONFIDENT THAT ITS MILITARY CAPABILITIES COULD BE ELIMINATED.

NOT TO THE LAST RPG OR THE LAST ROCKET, BUT COULD BE DESTROYED.

I AM CONFIDENT THAT THIS CAPACITY TO REIGN OVER THE GAZA STRIP COULD BE DESTROYED.

THERE WILL BE STILL A QUESTION TO WHOM WE WILL HAND OVER IT LATER, BUT I KNOW, AS WELL, THAT UNLIKE -- THAT HAMAS IS A POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT PUT ASIDE THE TERROR ASPECT OF IT, HAS A MUCH -- VERY BIG SUPPORT.

IN EGYPT, YOU HAVE THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, IN TURKEY, THE PARTY IN POWER, KIND OF A THEOLOGICALLY SISTER OF HAMAS, AND THE SAME ABOUT ONE CELL OF THE PARLIAMENT IN JORDAN.

SO, THEY HAVE IDEOLOGY, THEY HAVE A MOVEMENT.

WE DO NOT PRETEND TO KILL IDEOLOGIES OR TO ERASE DREAMS AND WISHES FROM THE MINDS OF PEOPLE, SO, WE ARE FULLY REALISTIC.

DESTROYING THE MILITARY CAPACITY AND ITS CAPACITY TO REIGN OVER THE GAZA STRIP, NOT OVER TURKEY OR TO HAVE AN OPPOSITION IN EGYPT.

>> I JUST WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE ABOUT PROPORTIONALITY, AND IT STARTS WITH YOU, AND WHAT YOU TOLD ME, EVEN BEFORE THE MAJOR AIR CAMPAIGN AND CERTAINLY BEFORE THE GROUND INVASION OCCURRED.

>> BOILING BLOOD IS NOT A GOOD RECIPE FOR SUCCESSFUL STRATEGIC DECISIONS.

>> WE SOUGHT AND GOT JUSTICE, WE MADE MISTAKES.

SO, I CAUTION THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL NOT TO BE BLINDED BY RAGE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU NOT TO BE CONSUMED, BECAUSE WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY AND A TERRORIST GROUP IS THE RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE.

>> PRIME MINISTER, ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THE -- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT RAGE IS A BIG MOTIVATING FACTOR HERE?

AND ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THE -- WITH THE PROPORTION OF DEATH THAT IS -- THAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA RIGHT NOW?

>> LOOK, RAGE IS VERY NATURAL KIND OF INSTINCT IN HUMAN BEINGS, AND IN A WAY, IT'S A RESULT OF EVOLUTION AND NEED TO SURVIVE IN TOUGH ENVIRONMENTS.

AT THE SAME TIME, I REPEAT WHAT I'VE SAID, THAT BOILING BLOOD IS NOT A GOOD KIND OF GUIDE FOR STRATEGIC PURPOSES, AND THE OTHER VOICES I HAVE HEARD, FROM -- JUST MEANS THAT ALL PEOPLE GIVE CLEVER ADVICE TO THE YOUNGER ONES.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I SHOULD TELL YOU THAT WE ARE ACTING, DOING OUR BEST.

WE FEEL FULLY COMMITTED TO INTERNATIONAL LAW, FULLY COMMITTED TO THIS PRINCIPLE OF PROPORTIONALITY.

WE ARE DOING OUR BEST.

WE ONCE AND AGAIN WARN EVERY PLACE THAT WE ARE GOING TO ATTACK.

AND I RECOMMEND TO ALL OF US TO LOOK TO THE CAUAL CHAIN OF WHAT CAUSES THE DEATH OF PEOPLE.

ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, THE SLAUGHTERS WERE DONE BY THESE BARBARIAN TERRORISTS.

ON THE GAZAN SIDE, IT WAS DONE BY THEM, BY THE SAME TERRORISTS, IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

THEY PUT A GUN TO THE TEMPLE OF THESE CIVILIANS AND BLOCK THEM FROM MOVING TO THE SAFE PLACE, THE SOUTHERN SIDE OF THE GAZA STRIP.

AS A RESULT OF IT, THEY HELD THEM AS A HUMAN SHIELD, DELIBERATELY, BEING FULLY AWARE OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING, AND DIDN'T SEE A WAY TO RELIEVE THEM FROM THE RESPONSIBILITY.

>> OKAY.

>> THIS LOSS OF LIFE.

WE CANNOT AFFORD TO GIVE IMPUNITY TO THE HAMAS JUST BY ALLOWING THEM TO HAVE THEIR OWN PEOPLE -- TO PROTECT THEM.

>> SO, THEN, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

I KNOW THAT'S THE POSITION OF THE GOVERNMENT.

CAN YOU TELL ME, THEN, HOW ONE CAN JUSTIFY THE POSITION OF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT AND THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER WHO, AS WE KNOW, FROM OPEN SOURCE MATERIAL, REPORTS, HIS OWN WORDS, IN FACT, YOU TELL ME, YOU TELL ME, BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE.

HOW DID HE FORM WHAT HAPPENED IN GAZA?

YOU TELL US.

>> LOOK, I SAID ONCE AND AGAIN, I CAN REPEAT IT HERE, BUT I SAY IT ALSO IN HEBREW, NETANYAHU HAD A GREAT MISTAKE ABOUT THE STRATEGY, SOME FIVE YEARS AGO, SOME PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU MORE THAN FIVE YEARS AGO, HE SHAPED A STRATEGY AS HE DEFINED IT, WHOEVER WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN BLOCK ANY POSSIBILITY OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, HAS TO SUPPORT MY POSITION OF KEEPING THE HAMAS STRENGTH KICKING AND ALIVE.

HE WAS EVEN READY TO BRIBE THEM WITH PROTECTION MONEY THAT CAME IN CASH -- CASH FROM QATAR.

AND TO WEAKEN THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

OTHER THAN THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

AND I BELONG TO ABOUT HALF OF THE PUBLIC IN ISRAEL WHO BELIEVE THAT TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS THE ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION IN THE LONG-TERM.

IT'S PROBABLY NOT ONCE AGAIN THE RIGHT TIME, BECAUSE PEOPLE SEEM MOTIVATED BY THE INSTINCT OF RAGE AND BOILING BLOOD, BUT IT BECOMES -- WE STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT THAT'S THE ONLY VIABLE OPTION, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF JUSTICE FOR THE PALESTINIANS, WHICH IS NOT MY HIGHEST PRIORITY, BUT IT'S A JUSTIFIABLE ONE FOR THEM, IT'S BECAUSE OF THE COMPELLING IMPERATIVE FOR US, ISRAELIS, TO PROTECT OUR OWN SECURITY, OUR OWN FUTURE, OUR OWN IDENTITY, THAT WE NEED TO -- TO HAVE THIS TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

AND I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT A LINE COULD BE DELINEATED WITHIN THE PROMISED LAND WITHIN WHICH WE'LL HAVE 80% OF THE SETTLERS AND ALL OUR STRATEGIC INTERESTS, AND WE'LL SPREAD ON A SINGLE DIGIT NUMBER OF PERCENT OF THE OVERALL AREA OF THE WEST BANK TO LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH A DEMILITARIZED BY VIABLE PALESTINIAN STATE THAT CONTROLS BOTH THIS PART OF THE GAZA STRIP AND THIS PART OF THE WEST BANK.

AND WE NEED IT FOR OUR OWN FUTURE, BUT IT'S NOT A SECRET, A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN HALF OF THE ISRAELI PUBLIC FEEL THAT THE GREAT VISION IS ONE STATE.

I THINK THAT IT'S A DISASTER, BUT WE ARE A DEMOCRATIC STATE, SO, WE HAVE TO CONVINCE THEM, NOT TO COERCE THEM, AND THAT'S A BIG CHALLENGE.

ESPECIALLY FOLLOWING OCTOBER 7, WHEN SOME PEOPLE ARE MOTIVATED BY THE EVENTS, TO GO EVEN -- TO BE MORE EXTREME IN DEMANDING REVENGE AND SOME OF THEM THINK THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO SURVIVE IN THE MIDDLE EAST UNLESS YOU ADOPT THESE BARBARIAN RULES, AND, OF COURSE, THAT'S ONLY A SLIM MINORITY, BUT BASICALLY, IT'S NOT EASY TO CONVINCE AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

THE ISRAELI PUBLIC THAT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION STILL REMAIN THE ONLY VIABLE ONE ON THE LONG RANGE.

LONG-TERM.

>> SO, AS YOU SAID, THAT NETANYAHU DOES NOT WANT THAT, AND NOR DOES HIS COALITION PARTNERS, AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT PUBLIC OPINION IN ISRAEL.

PUBLIC OPINION IS ALSO VERY, VERY CLEAR IN ISRAEL THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT HIM TO GO.

NOW OR AFTER THIS MILITARY.

THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER HAS COME OUT AND SAID HE NEEDS TO GO NOW.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> I AGREE -- YOU KNOW, 80% OF THE PUBLIC ANSWER NOW IN POLLS, 80%, THEY BELIEVE THAT NETANYAHU IS THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS WHOLE BLUNDER, WHICH SUN PRECEDENTED IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY.

70% PLUS BELIEVE THAT HE HAS TO RESIGN.

ABOUT HALF OF THEM SAY HE HAS TO RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, THE OTHER HALF SAYS HE HAS TO RESIGN AFTER THE WAR, BUT IN ISRAEL, WAR IS SOMETHING VERY SHORT.

THE MOST SUCCESSFUL WAR WE HAD IN THE LAST 75 YEARS TOOK LESS THAN A WEEK, THE SI DAYS WAR.

THE MOST DEMANDING ONE IN '7 TOOK LESS THAN THREE WEEKS.

THE LONGEST CONFLICT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO WITH HAMAS IN GAZA, AND IT TOOK LESS THAN TWO MONTHS, SO, PEOPLE THINK A VERY SHORT-TERM.

IF YOU ARE ASKED -- I BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THEM WOULD SAY HE HAS TO RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, IF THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT REALITY AND PROBABLY SOME SUBCONSCIOUS WISHES OF NETANYAHU WILL HOPE THAT THE WAR WILL TAKE A YEAR, PROBABLY MORE THAN A YEAR, AND IT COULD -- IT COULD HAPPEN.

SO, I THINK THAT WHEN ALL THE -- 80%, YOU KNOW, THINK THAT HE'S RESPONSIBLE, INCLUDE A MAJORITY OF HIS OWN VOTERS.

AND 70% PLUS WANT HIM TO RESIGN, INCLUDE SOME 40% OR 50% OF HIS OWN VOTERS.

IF YOU LOST THE TRUST OF THE PEOPLE WHO NOMINATED YOU PRIME MINISTER, THAT'S THE TIME TO LEAVE.

>> AND DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD GO NOW?

>> EXCUSE ME?

>> DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD GO NOW?

>> YEAH, I TOLD YOU, I FOLLOW THE -- MY DEMAND IS NOT IMPORTANT, I'M ONLY ONE VOICE, AND I'M KNOWN TO BE THE HARSHEST CRITIC PROBABLY OF NETANYAHU, SO, I'M NOT COUNTED THE SAME AS AN UNBIASED SOURCE, BUT WHEN THE POLLS SHOW THAT 70% PLUS OF THE PEOPLE WANT HIM TO RESIGN, HE HAS TO RESIGN.

IN A NORMAL COUNTRY, HE WOULD HAVE RESIGNED OCTOBER 8th, AT MOST IN THE EVENING, AND IN THE UK, IF HE WOULD NOT HAVE RESIGNED ALONE, HIS OWN CABINET MINISTER WOULD JOIN THE NEXT -- NOON AND INVITING HIM TO A LUNCH AND THE END OF WHICH HE WOULD ANNOUNCE THAT HE DECIDED TO RESIGN.

>> ALL RIGHT.

EHUD BARAK, FORMER PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND WE TURN NOW TO THOSE CRITICALLY ILL NEWBORNS WHO HAVE BEEN EVACUATED TO EGYPT FOR LIFE-SAVING TREATMENT.

ELENI GIOKOS HAS THEIR STORY.

>> Reporter: WHEELED TO SAFETY, FINALLY IN EGYPT.

A RACE AGAINST TIME TO GET THEM OUT, BUT A DELICATE PROCESS TO MOVE THEM.

THE JOURNEY TO BRING THEM HERE, LONG AND ARDUOUS.

CRIES FOR HELP FROM THE WAR'S TINIEST VICTIMS.

THEIR FIRST STOP, THE HOSPITAL IN RAFAH.

28 BABIES MAKE THE GRUELING TRIP FROM GAZA.

>> Translator: THE BABIES WERE GIVEN FLUIDS AND NEEDED MEDICATION ACCORDING TO THEIR CONDITION.

FOR NOW, THEY ARE IN A DIFFICULT STABLE CONDITION, BUT THIS CONDITION MIGHT DETERIORATE.

>> Reporter: NOW, THE W.H.O.

SAYS MANY OF THEM ARE IN CRITICAL CONDITION, AND ALL ARE FIGHTING INFECTIONS.

THEY'VE ENDURED LIFE-THREATENING ORDEALS, TRAPPED INSIDE AL SHIFA HOSPITAL IN GAZA CITY AS THE WAR RAGED AROUND THE HOSPITAL COMPLEX LAST WEEK.

AL SHIFA RAN OUT OF OXYGEN, CLEAN WATER, AND FUEL.

MOVED BY HAND AND LAID ON THESE BEDS, NO INCUBATORS, AND PLACED NEXT TO HOT WATER BOTTLES TO STAY WARM.

DOCTORS SAY FIVE OF THE BABIES DIDN'T MAKE IT.

CONDITIONS TOO HARSH FOR SUCH VULNERABLE PATIENTS.

BUT ULTIMATELY, IT WAS THE WAR IN AND AROUND AL SHIFA THAT MADE THEIR EVACUATION COMPLEX AND DANGEROUS.

THE EGYPTIANS WAITING FOR OVER A WEEK AT THE BORDER, DISAPPOINTED DAY AFTER DAY, KNOWING THAT EVERY MINUTE COUNTED.

BUT THE DECISION OUT OF THEIR HANDS TO GET THESE BABIES TO SAFETY.

FOR THIS FATHER, AFTER WEEKS OF LIVING IN FEAR AFTER BEING SEPARATED WITH HI SON, FINALLY REUNITED.

>> Translator: THANK GOD WE NOW FEEL OUR SON IS SAFE AFTER NOT SEEING HIM FOR TWO WEEKS.

WE DIDN'T KNOW IF HE WAS DEAD OR ALIVE.

>> Reporter: ONLY FOUR MOTHERS AND SIX NURSES ACCOMPANIED THE 28 BABIES.

THIS WOMAN DESCRIBES HER NIGHTMARE.

>> Translator: DURING THE SIEGE, THERE WAS NO MILK.

HER CONDITION WORSENED.

SHE WENT BACK TO ZERO AND SHE RELIED SOLELY ON ARTIFICIAL OXYGEN.

>> Reporter: AS FOR THE OTHERS, IT IS UNKNOWN WHERE THEIR PARENTS AND FAMILY ARE, OR IF THEY ARE STILL ALIVE.

NOW, IN THE HANDS OF THE E GIN EGYPTIANS, THEIR LIFE STILL FRAGILE, THEIR LIVES FOREVER DEFINED BY THIS WAR.

>> ELENI GIOKOS REPORTING THERE FROM CAIRO.

>>> NOW, THE TREMENDOUS LOSS OF LIFE IN THE ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR INCLUDES JOURNALISTS.

THE COMMITTEE TO PROJECT JOURNALISTS SAYS 48 HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE CONFLICT.

BEARING WITNESS, SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER IS A DANGEROUS JOB, WHICH MY NEXT GUEST KNOWS TRAGICALLY WELL.

HIS OWN MOTHER, THE FAMOUS JOURNALIST DAPHNE CARUANA GA LEIS YA, WAS KILLED BY A CAR BOMB IN 2017.

HER SON, PAUL, IS NOW TELLING HIS MOTHER'S STORY IN A NEW BOOK CALLED "A DEATH IN MALTA" AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW HERE IN LONDON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, WE WERE JUST TALKING BEFORE, IT MUST BE REALLY TOUGH WRITING A BOOK ABOUT YOUR MOTHER'S ASSASSINATION, YOU KNOW, GETTING THE WORD -- THE STORY OF THIS AMAZING JOURNALIST OUT, BUT YOU ARE HER SON, HAVING TO RELIVE THIS OVER AGAIN.

>> SO, IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT, BUT IN AN UNEXPECTED WAY, ALMOST THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT I EXPECTED, SO, I THOUGHT WRITING ABOUT THE MURDER WOULD BE VERY HARD, AND OF COURSE IT WAS, BUT THEN, BY THE TIME I CAME TO WRITE SO MUCH OF HER ASSASSINATION, IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED IN COURT, AND SO MUCH REPORTING HAD BEEN DONE, I WAS ABLE TO SORT OF COVER IT AS A REPORTER.

WHAT I FOUND HARDER WAS WRITING ABOUT HER LIFE EVEN BEFORE JOURNALISM.

SO, WHAT MADE HER WANT TO BECOME SOMEONE TO REPORT ON SUCH HIGH LEVEL CCORRUPTION, TO TAKE THOSE RISKS, AND TO START A FAMILY, EVEN.

AND SO, IT WAS ALMOST THE INVERSE.

>> AND WHAT DID YOU FIND THAT YOU MAYBE DIDN'T KNOW, THAT YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT AS HER SON?

>> SO THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN SHE WAS 19 YEARS OLD, IN '84, SHE HAD BEEN ARRESTED AND WRONGFULLY CHARGED FOR ASSAULTING POLICE OFFICERS AT A PROTEST.

AND THAT EXPERIENCE KIND OF RADICALIZED HER.

AND THE WAY SHE BECAME A JOURNALIST, THAT IT WAS A TIME WHEN NEWSPAPERS DIDN'T EMPLOY WOMEN AS JOURNALISTS AS A MATTER OF POLICY.

>> IN MALTA.

AS A MATTER OF POLICY?

>> YES, THAT'S RIGHT.

SHE WAS THE FIRST WOMAN TO WRITE A COLUMN, THE FIRST PERSON TO WRITE A COLUMN UNDER HER OWN NAME.

AND THAT WAS VERY INTERESTING TO ME.

AND WHEN IT CAME TO THE CORRUPTION STORIES SHE REPORTED ON MUCH LATER, IT WAS A LOT MORE DETAILED, AND IT MADE ME APPRECIATE WHAT SHE WAS DOING AND WHAT SHE WAS UP AGAINST.

>> YOU WERE HERE THE DAY THAT SHE WAS KILLED -- >> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> BUT YOUR BROTHER WAS THERE.

>> HE WAS THERE.

>> AND HE -- >> HE WAS THERE, HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO ARRIVE AT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME, RIGHT?

THEY WERE WORKING TO GET HER OUT, AND IT WAS A MONDAY AFTERNOON, THE 16th OF OCTOBER, 2017.

I KNOW THE EXACT TIME THE BOMB WENT OFF, RIGHT, 2:58 P.M.

I KNEW THE MESSAGE THAT WAS USED TO SET IT OFF.

>> A MESSAGE -- >> YES, THAT'S RIGHT.

>> A PHONE MESSAGE.

>> YES, IT WAS AN SMS.

MATTHEW HEARD AN EXPLOSION AND HE THOUGHT TO HIMSELF, HE TOLD ME, I KNEW IT WAS A CAR BOMB STRAIGHTAWAY, IT COULDN'T HAVE BEEN ANYTHING ELSE.

AND HE RAN OUT OF THE HOUSE AND FOUND THE CAR IN FLAMES, AND ACTUALLY TRIED TO RESCUE HER FROM THE CAR.

AND THAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT, BECAUSE I -- YOU KNOW, I HAD TO ASK MATTHEW TO RELIVE THAT EXPERIENCE IN AS MUCH DETAIL AS POSSIBLE, AND HE'S ALSO HAD TO RELIVE IT IN COURT, RIGHT?

BECAUSE HE'S NOW A WITNESS TO THE MURDER.

AND SO, IN A WAY, I'M LUCKY, RIGHT?

I'M THE YOUNGEST OF THREE BROTHERS.

TOGETHER, WE WERE ABLE, I THINK, TO DO QUITE A LOT, AND WE DEPENDED ON EACH OTHER A LOT.

>> THE BOOK HAS HAD REALLY TREMENDOUS REVIEWS.

YOU KNOW, JUST TO REMIND EVERYBODY, BECAUSE THIS IS ALSO UNBELIEVABLE, HER LAST POST WAS, "THERE ARE CROOKS EVERYWHERE, THE SITUATION IS DESPERATE."

AND OF COURSE, REMEMBER, SHE WROTE A VERY POPULAR BLOG, HUGE, HUGE REEDREADERSHIP IN THE COUNTRY.

SHE WAS REALLY DETERMINED, AND BASICALLY IN THE FACE OF POWER, IN AUTHORITY, WHERE THERE WERE ANY LINKS TO CORRUPTION OR WHATEVER.

WHERE DID HER DRIVE COME FROM?

I JUST WANT TO READ FROM THE BOOK, THERE WAS A SHYNESS ABOUT HER THAT MEANT THAT SHE ALWAYS FELT MORE COMFORTABLE EXPRESSING HERSELF IN WRITING THAN OUTLOUD.

I HAVE A TRACE OF THAT SHYNESS, TOO, AND IT REMINDS ME HOW DRIVEN SHE WAS TO DO HER WORK.

I LOVE IT, SHE TOLD AN INTERVIEWER TEN DAYS BEFORE HER MURDER, IT'S A COMPULSION TO WRITE.

>> SO, I THINK IT COMES FROM HER EXPERIENCE OF MALTA, AS A CHILD IN THE '70s, THAT THE COUNTRY WAS VERY CLOSED, WAS A RULE OF LAW CRISIS, THERE WAS REAL POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

AND THEN TOWARDS THE END OF THE '80s, MALTA WAS OPENING UP TO THE WORLD, AND DEMOCRATIZEéING, AND SHE THOUGHT THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED.

SHE SAW JOURNALISM AS A WAY OF ACHIEVING THAT POLITICAL CHANGE, AND GETTING MALTESE PEOPLE TO REFLECT ON THEMSELVES AND HOW THEY WANT THEIR COUNTRY TO RUN.

SO, WHEN, STARTING IN 2013, THE COUNTRY REFERRED TO THAT PART OF HER CHILDHOOD, SHE WAS HORRIFIED, AND BEGAN SEEING IT ALMOST AS AN OBLIGATION, YOU KNOW, SHE HAS A COMPULSION TO WRITE ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, LOOKING BACK, IT KIND OF -- MALTA REPRESENTED ALL THESE BIG TRENDS.

IT WAS LIKE POPULISM, THE RULE OF LAW CRISIS, IN A GRAIN OF SAND.

SO, WE GOT A VERY POWERFUL HEAD OF THE EXECUTIVE, OUR PRIME MINISTER, WHO BEGAN EATING AWAY AT ALL OUR INDEPENDENT INSTITUTIONS, AND THEN BEGAN PRIVATIZING A LOT OF OUR STATE ASSETS, AND MY MOTHER KIND OF EXPOSED ONE STORY AFTER ANOTHER AND BECAME REALLY THE LAST FUNCTIONING INSTITUTION IN THE COUNTRY, SO PEOPLE NO LONGER TURNED TO THE POLICE, BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH CORRUPTION THERE, OR THE JUDICIARY, OR THE SECURITY SERVICE, THEY WENT TO HER, YOU KNOW, THE LAST KIND OF VOICE THAT WOULD EXPOSE THESE THINGS.

>> AFTER SHE WAS KILLED, I SPOKE TO THE PRIME MINISTER.

HE DENIED ALL WRONGDOING.

I'M GOING TO PLAY WHAT HE SAID TO ME BACK THEN IN 2017.

>> SHE WAS A VERY HAIRISH CRITIC OF MINE.

I THINK THE HARSHEST I'VE EVER HAD.

SHE'S BEEN WRITING ABOUT ME, AGAINST ME, FOR THE PAST DECADE OR SO, AND WE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE LIVING IN A FREE WORLD, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ALWAYS TOLERATED IN THE SENSE THAT IT'S OBVIOUSLY HER RIGHT TO WRITE THESE THINGS, IT'S OBVIOUSLY MY RIGHT TO PROTECT MYSELF, IF I FEEL AGGRIEVED IN COURT.

THIS IS A COUNTRY WHERE RULE OF LAW REIGNS SUPREME, AND I WILL MAKE SURE THAT JUSTICE IS DONE, AND THERE WILL BE ABSOLUTELY NO IMPUNITY FOR ANYONE, BE IT FROM ANY PART OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, IF THERE IS POLITICS INVOLVED IN THIS, OR FROM ANY OTHER SECTOR.

>> SO, THAT WAS -- THAT WAS HIM, YOU KNOW, RIGHT AFTER THE DEATH.

HE ALWAYS DENIED ANY WRONGDOING.

HE DID EVENTUALLY RESIGN, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE A LATER INVESTIGATION SAID THE STATE WAS RESPONSIBLE, BECAUSE IT FAILED TO RECOGNIZE THE LEGION OF RISK TO HER LIFE AND ALL THE THREATS, AND TO TAKE THE APPROPRIATE STEPS TO PROTECT HER.

WHAT HAS BEEN, BECAUSE HE SAID THERE WILL BE NO IMPUNITY FOR THOSE WHO WERE DISCOVERED TO HAVE DONE THIS.

WHAT HAS BEEN THE RESULT?

>> SO, SO FAR, THREE MEN -- ACTUALLY FOUR MEN HAVE ADMITTED TO THEIR INVOLVEMENT IN THE MURDER.

THREE HIT MEN AND A MIDDLEMAN WHO WAS GIVEN A PARDON IN EXCHANGE FOR EVIDENCE.

THE MAN WHO THE PROSECUTION SAYS COMMISSIONED THE MURDER IS AWAITING TRIAL, AS ARE THREE MEN WHO ARE ALLEGED TO BE THE BOMB SUPPLIERS.

SO, THAT'S ALL RETROSPECTIVE OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEEDING.

>> IT'S A LONG TIME, IF THEY'RE STILL AWAITING TRIAL.

>> IT'S A LONG TIME.

IT'S REALLY THROUGH THEIR OWN VARIOUS APPEALS IN COURT THAT HAVE DELAYED THE PROCEEDINGS.

SO, WE'VE BEEN WORKING VERY HARD TO SECURE A VERY FAIR AND VERY FAST TRIAL.

AND WITH RESPECT TO THE CORRUPTION, AND THAT OCCURRED UNDER AND ACTUALLY BY THE GOVERNMENT, THERE HAS BEEN ACTUALLY NO PROGRESS.

RIGHT?

SO, THE PUBLIC INQUIRY AND YOU MENTIONED FOUND NOT ONLY THAT THE STATE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR MY MOTHER'S DEATH, BECAUSE IT FAILED TO RECOGNIZE THOSE RISKS, BUT THAT THE INSTITUTIONAL FAILURES THAT ENABLED HER MURDER WERE GENERATED BY THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE, RIGHT?

THEY SAID, CORRUPTION FROM THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE SPREAD LIKE AN OCTOPUS TO ALL PARTS OF THE STATE.

AND, SO, THERE ARE VARIOUS CORRUPTION STORIE MY MOTHER REPORTED ON, THE PRIVATIZATION OF THE ENERGY SYSTEM, THE HOSPITAL SECTOR, WHERE THE PRIME MINISTER IS PERSONALLY IMMRE MEANTED, WE'VE SEEN NO PROSECUTION.

>> MALTA IS PART OF THE EU, AND DAPHNE WAS ONE OF ONLY TWO PEOPLE THAT THE CPJ, YOU KNOW, RECORDS EVER -- JOURNALISTS EVER TO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE EU.

>> YES.

SO THE -- THE AFFECT -- THE SITUATION FOR JOURNALISTS IN MALTA REMAINS QUITE RISKY.

SO THE PUBLIC INQUIRY MADE A NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS TO GENERATE A SAFER ENVIRONMENT FOR JOURNALISM IN MALTA.

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED YET.

AND WE HAVE ALWAYS MAINTAINED IN OUR CAMPAIGN THAT THE BEST WAY OF PROTECTING INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISTS IS TO ACT ON THEIR WORK.

SO, WITH MY MOTHER, WE HAD A SITUATION WHERE SHE'D REPORT ON MASSIVE CORRUPTION, RIGHT?

FLOWS OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF EUROS, AND SHE'D REPORT THEM AND NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN, RIGHT?

NO ONE WOULD BE CALLED IN FOR QUESTIONING, THERE WOULD BE NO PROSECUTIONS, AND THAT IS STILL THE CASE.

WE HAVE A VERY LIVELY PRESS IN MALTA, VERY BRAVE JOURNALISTS, BUT STILL, THEY REPORT ON THESE REALLY SHOCKING STORIES, RIGHT, THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER HIMSELF WAS RECENTLY IMMRE KATED IN THIS BIG HOSPITAL PRIVATIZATION FRAUD, AND HE'S YET TO BE PROPERTY PROSECUTED OVER THAT.

>> WHAT ABOUT HER LEGACY?

HOW DO YOU REFLECT?

I MEAN, YOU'VE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK, I THOUGHT OF WHAT MY MOTHER'S THOUGHTS MIGHT BE NOW, AND WHAT HER LAST THOUGHT WAS.

IN THAT MOMENT OF INCONSOLABLE ALONENESS WHEN SHE PULLED OUT THE HAND BRAKE, WHEN SHE REALIZED WHAT HAD BEEN DONE TO HER, WHAT DID MY MOTHER WANT US TO KNOW?

>> SO, I -- YOU KNOW, I BECAME A JOURNALIST AFTER SHE WAS KILLED, AND THAT'S A VERY PERSONAL EFFECT OF HER LEGACY, AS IS THIS BOOK, IT'S A KIND OF TESTAMENT TO HER LIFE AND WORK.

MY BROTHERS AND IT HAVE ALSO SET UP A FOUNDATION IN HER NAME, AND THE PURPOSE OF THAT FOUNDATION IS TO SECURE JUSTICE FOR HER OWN MURDER, BUT ALSO FOR HER STORIES.

AND I REALLY BELIEVE WE'LL GET THERE ONE DAY.

AND ONCE WE DO, THE FOUNDATION WILL THEN FOCUS ON THE KIND OF CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM MALTA NEEDS TO MAKE SURE SOMETHING LIKE THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

AND ACTUALLY TURN MALTA INTO A POSITIVE EXAMPLE OF JOURNALISM AND THE RULE OF LAW.

>> WELL, THAT'S SOMETHING REALLY TO ASPIRE TO, AND TO BE HOPEFUL, BUT WELL DONE WITH THE BOOK.

I MEAN, IT'S A SON'S, YOU KNOW, HOMAGE TO HIS MOTHER.

IT'S HAD GREAT, GREAT REVIEWS, AND I HEAR YOU.

IT MUST HAVE BEEN SO HARD TO WRITE THIS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, PAUL.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, IN TIMES OF WAR, DISINFORMATION SPREADS LIKE WILDFIRE, AND TECH MOGUL ELON MUSK IS OFTEN CRITICIZED FOR FANNING THOSE FLAMES.

SEVERAL COMPANIES HAVE PULLED THEIR ADS FROM HIS PLATFORM X, OTHERWISE TWITTER, AFTER HE PERSONALLY ENDORSED AN ANTI-SEMITIC POST.

MUSK DENIES MY WRONGDOING, HE SAYS NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH, I WISH ONLY THE BEST FOR HUMANITY.

NOW, NORA BENAVIDEZ, SENIOR COUNSEL AND DIRECTOR OF DIGITAL JUSTICE AND CIVIL RIGHTS AT FREE PRESS JOINS HARI TO DISCUSS WHY CONTENT MODERATION IS CRUCIAL FOR DEMOCRACY.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

NORA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE A FREE SPEECH ATTORNEY, YET, YOU ALSO WORK WITH THE PLATFORMS TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO NAVIGATE THESE WATERS THESE DAYS, AND I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU CONSIDER THE BIGGEST THREATS TO, I GUESS, BALANCING DIGITAL FREEDOMS WITH PRESERVING DEMOCRACY?

>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, HARI, IT'S AN HONOR.

LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE IN A MOMENT OF ONE OF THE BIGGEST GEOPOLITICAL CRISES THAT WE'VE SEEN, AND IT'S PLAYING OUT ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

THE BIGGEST SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ARE NOT STEPPING UP TO DO THEIR JOBS.

IN FACT, OVER THE LAST YEAR, THEY'VE BEEN ROLLING BACK THEIR POLICIES, LAYING OFF CRITICAL TEAMS THAT ARE TASKED WITH KEEPING THE PLATFORMS HEALTHY AND FUNCTIONAL.

AND SO, DISINFORMATION IS RISING, HATE IS RISING ON THESE PLATFORMS, AND PEOPLE ARE HUNGRY FOR CREDIBLE INFORMATION.

IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS COMBINATION.

IT MAKES PEOPLE UNAWARE OF REALLY WHAT THE STAKES ARE, AND WHAT'S FACT OR FICTION.

>> RECENTLY, WE HAVE SEEN TREMENDOUS ACTIVITY ON SOCIAL MEDIA, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF THE WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND GAZA RIGHT NOW, AND YOU WROTE A RECENT ARTICLE, A PIECE CALLED "SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM INTEGRITY MATTERS IN TIMES OF WAR."

AND YOU DREW PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO THE PLATFORM X.

WHAT DO YOU SEE THERE THAT'S TROUBLING?

>> WELL, ELON MUSK HAS TAKEN ONE OF THE MOST WIDELY USED PLATFORMS, WHICH WASN'T PERFECT TO BEGIN WITH, BUT IT WAS FUNCTIONAL, AND HE HAS DRIVEN IT INTO THE GROUND.

HE HAS CUT TEAMS THAT ARE CRITICAL IN KEEPING A PLATFORM FUNCTIONAL, HE'S ALSO DONE A NUMBER OF DESIGN CHANGES THAT JUST MAKE IT HARDER FOR USERS TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT THEY'RE SEEING.

HE'S REMOVED THE HEADLINE IN LINK CARDS, AND THE BIGGEST CHANGE IN THIS CONTEXT WITH RESPECT TO ISRAEL AND GAZA IS THE BLUE CHECK MARK FEATURE.

IT USED TO BE A SIGN OF AUTHENTICITY, OF CREDIBILITY AND TRUST, AND IT'S NOW A SUBSCRIPTION FEATURE.

SO, IF YOU WANT TO PAY $8 A MONTH, YOU HAVE YOUR CONTENT BOOSTED MORE IN PEOPLE'S FEEDS.

THAT FEATURE HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED OVER THE LAST FIVE OR SIX WEEKS, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO PAY THAT AMOUNT ARE OFTEN BAD ACTORS.

SOMETIMES THEY ARE SPREADING UNAUTHENTICATED CONTENT, VIDEOS AND IMAGES THAT WERE MISPRO RATED FROM TOTALLY DIFFERENT PLACES AND TIMES IN HISTORY.

SO, IT'S BEEN THIS CHAOTIC FRENZY ON TWITTER, NOW X, ALL THANKS TO A YEAR OF BAD DECISIONS BY ELON MUSK.

>> LAST WEEK, HE HAD ESSENTIALLY AGREED WITH AND SUPPORTED AN IDEA THAT WAS ESPOUSED BY ONE OF THE USERS THAT SAID THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THAT BASICALLY -- THAT ACCUSED JEWISH PEOPLE OF, QUOTE, HATRED AGAINST WHITES.

AND I DON'T WANT TO GO INTO THE REST OF THE MESSAGE AND GIVE IT A PLATFORM THAT IT DOESN'T DESERVE, BUT ELON MUSK'S KIND OF AMPLIFICATION OF THAT, IN SAYING THAT THIS IS, IN FACT, YOU HAVE SPOKEN THE TRUTH -- WHAT DOES THAT DO?

BECAUSE HIS TWEETS ALMOST BY ENGINEERING REACH PRACTICALLY EVERYONE THAT'S ON THE PLATFORM.

>> IT'S SO TROUBLING THAT THERE ALMOST AREN'T WORDS FOR IT.

THAT THE WORLD'S RICHEST MAN, WHO BOUGHT A PLATFORM OUT OF BOREDOM OR INTEREST HAS USED IT TO EXERT HIS POWER AND INFLUENCE.

HE HAS AN OUTSIZED FOLLOWING.

AND I BELIEVE IS NOT SOMEHOW ABOVE REJIGGERING THE ALLEGHENY RHYTHMS TO MAKE SURE THAT HIS CONTENT IS SEEN MORE WIDELY THAN EVERYONE ELSE'S.

SO, THE CONTENT THAT HE POSTS, THE VALUES, THE OPINIONS THAT HE PROMOTES, ARE SEEN BY MORE PEOPLE THAN EVER.

WHAT IS HE DOING WITH THAT?

POWER AND INFLUENCE?

HE'S PROMOTING HATE.

HE PICKS PEOPLE WHO PRONOTE NAZI SENTIMENT, THINGS THAT ARE JUST TERRIBLE TO SAY OUT LOUD, AND HE GIVES THEM AMPLIAMPLIFICATION, HE INTERACTS WITH THEM.

IT'S SO DANGEROUS.

AND IN THE FACE OF THAT, THE NEW CEO, LINDA YACCARINO, HAS TURNED AROUND AND SAID, WE HAVE NO ROOM FOR ANTI-SEMITISM ON THIS PLATFORM, WHICH FLIES IN THE FACE OF EVERYTHING THAT HER BOSS HAS DONE.

SO, IT'S A PLATFORM THAT IS UNABLE TO REIN IN HATE, BECAUSE THE VERY TOP IS PROMOTING IT.

>> WHAT'S BEEN THE RIPPLE EFFECT OF ELON MUSK'S DECISIONS IN HOW HE CHOOSES TO VALUE TRUST AND SAFETY, OR VOR RASTY OF CLAIMS THAT ARE MADE ON THE PLATFORMS, HOW DOES THAT IMPACT META, WHICH OWNS FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM AND WHATSAPP, OR ALPHABET, THAT OWNS GOOGLE AND YOUTUBE?

>> ELON MUSK LOVES TO CHAMPION THAT HE IS A FREE SPEECH ADVOCATE, BUT HE'S REALLY ANYTHING BUT THAT, AND HIS BEHAVIOR, HIS DECISIONS REGARDING TWITTER OVER THE LAST YEAR, POINT TO HIS ALMOST AUTHORITARIAN TACTICS.

YOU KNOW, HE DECIDES SOMETHING IS TRUE IF HE LIKES IT.

AND IF HE DOESN'T LIKE IT, IT ISN'T TRUE.

YOU KNOW, JUST THE LAST FEW DAYS OF FRENZY, AS HE HAS AMPLIFIED ANTI-SEMITIC SENTIMENTS, ALL FLOW FROM VERY WEIRD, VEILED EXCHANGES WITH WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND NAZI ACCOUNTS.

THAT'S DANGEROUS TO BEGIN WITH, BUT SEVERAL ADVERTISERS HAVE STARTED PULLING THEIR AD REVENUE FROM THE PLATFORM, BECAUSE OF HIS BAD BEHAVIOR.

THEY'VE SEEN THAT THEIR ADS ARE BEING FEATURED NEXT TO HATEFUL CONTENT, AND THEY'RE SAYING, IT'S TOO MUCH.

SO, IBM'S PULLED THEIR ADS.

AND RESEARCHERS WHO FOUND THAT IBM'S CON TENT WAS FEATURED NEXT TO HATE, THAT ORGANIZATION IS CALLED MEDIA MATTERS.

ELON MUSK'S RESPONSE WAS TO CALL THAT ORGANIZATION EVIL.

SOLELY FOR THEM DOING THEIR JOB.

SO, THE CLIMATE HERE IS THAT, WE HAVE A LEADER IN PLACE OF A MASSIVE, MASSIVE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM, EAGER TO CHERRY PICK SPEECH WHEN HE LIKES IT.

AND IF HE DOESN'T LIKE IT, HE'S GOING TO SILENCE IT.

>> YOU KNOW, I'D BE REMISS TO HAVE SUCH A CONVERSATION WITH YOU AND NOT BRING UP KIND OF THE ELEPHANT IN THE SOCIAL MEDIA SPACE, WHICH IS TIKTOK.

IT IS BY A LONG SHOT WHERE SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GETTING THEIR ENTERTAINMENT, AND A LOT OF THEM ARE TURNING TO FOR NEWS.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN RECENTLY A LOT -- THERE'S A LOT MORE SCRUTINY ON WHETHER OR NOT BYTE DANCE, THE COMPANY THAT RUNS TIKTOK, HAS BEEN IN ANY WAY INFLUENCED BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT, PUTTING THEIR THUMB ON THE SCALE OF WHAT TYPE OF CONTENT IS SURFACING IN LARGER VOLUMES, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ISRAEL-GAZA WAR.

>> MANY PEOPLE ARE SPECULATING THAT TIKTOK HAS TRIED TO NOT GET CAUGHT.

THERE ARE SO MANY RISKS THAT TIKTOK AND ITS PARENT COMPANY BYTE DANCE ARE FACING, EVEN JUST IN THE UNITED STATES.

STATE LAWMAKERS AND FEDERAL LAWMAKERS ARE TOYING WITH WHETHER TO BAN THE PLATFORM HERE IN THE U.S.

IN ONE STATE, THAT LEGISLATION WENT THROUGH, AND APP STORES ARE BANNED FROM FEATURING THE PLATFORM.

THERE WILL, OF COURSE, BE WORKAROUNDS, BUT IT POSES THE QUESTION FOR THE PLATFORM, HOW DO THEY MAINTAIN GOOD BEHAVIOR?

AND FRANKLY, TIKTOK HAS ACTUALLY ROLLED BACK LESS POLICY THAN ANY OF THE OTHER PLATFORMS OVER THE LAST YEAR.

THEY'VE TRIED TO CORRECT WHENEVER THEIR ALGORITHMS PRODUCE BAD RESULTS OF SOME SORT OR DOWN RANK CONTENT OF ACTIVISTS.

SO, THERE'S REALLY A QUESTION, DOES THE THREAT OF REGULATION PROMPT BETTER BEHAVIOR.

IF THESE COMPANIES WILL NOT REGULATE THEMSELVES TO ENHANCE AND PROTECT PLATFORM INTEGRITY, OTHER ACTORS NEED TO STEP IN.

LAWMAKERS, REGULATORS AROUND THE WORLD, HAVE TO TAKE UP THAT TASK.

>> WHILE THERE IS BIPARTISAN CONCERN OVER WHAT ROLE THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT MAY BE PLAYING IN TIKTOK, THERE'S ALSO SEVERE PUSH-BACK FROM CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS WHO SAY THAT, ESSENTIALLY, SOCIAL MEDIA IS TRYING TO SENSOR AMERICANS WITH MORE CONSERVATIVE POINTS OF VIEW.

IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE TO WHAT REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN AND SO MANY OTHERS SAY ON CAPITOL HILL?

>> THIS IS SUCH AN EXCELLENT QUESTION, HARI.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST CONCERNING THREATS RIGHT NOW, I THINK, THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE TECH ACCOUNTABILITY SPACE.

WHILE WE HAVE THE LIKES OF ELON MUSK THREATENING RESEARCHERS, THEN WE HAVE LAWMAKERS SAYING THAT THESE PLATFORMS ARE SOMEHOW NOT NEUTRAL, THAT THEY ARE ATTACKING CONSERVATIVES.

THAT'S WRONG.

AND MUCH OF THE EVIDENCE THAT WE HAVE FROM RESEARCH STUDIES AND OTHERS ACTUALLY SHOW THE OPPOSITE, THAT CONSERVATIVE VALUES AND CONTENT IS NOT BEING SOMEHOW CENSORED.

SO THAT, FRANKLY, LIE, HAS SEEPED INTO OUR PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS.

IT'S ALLOWED PEOPLE TO FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOME KIND OF PARTISANSHIP HAPPENING WITHIN THESE PLATFORMS, TO THE POINT WHERE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ARE NOW NERVOUS TO EVEN COMMUNICATE WITH PLATFORMS, BECAUSE THE RISK MAY SEEM SOMEHOW THAT THEY ARE PRESSURING THE PLATFORMS TO TAKE ACTIONS.

ALL OF THAT GIVES THE COMPANIES, HOWEVER, LICENSE TO DO LESS.

LICENSE TO IGNORE REQUESTS FOR TAKEDOWNS OF VIOLATING CONTENT, LESS COORDINATION OF NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS.

NONE OF THIS IS GOOD, AS WE LOOK FORWARDS 2024.

>> WE'VE HEARD RECENTLY THAT META, THE COMPANY THAT OWNS FACEBOOK, IS GOING TO ALLOW POLITICAL ADVERTISING IN THIS COMING CYCLE, FOR 2024 IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH MIGHT SAY THAT THE PREVIOUS ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NO FACTUAL BASIS TO SUPPORT THAT.

NOW, IS THAT -- SHOULD THAT BE PROTECTED POLITICAL SPEECH?

WHAT ARE THE RAMIFICATIONS OR IMPLICATIONS OF THAT?

AND DIDN'T FACEBOOK HAVE POLICIES AGAINST SPREADING SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

>> THAT META POLICY ISN'T EVEN NEW, UNFORTUNATELY.

THAT HAS BEEN IN EFFECT, SADLY, FOR MANY MONTHS, AND THIS QUESTION AROUND POLITICAL ADS AND FREE SPEECH IS A GOOD ONE.

ADVERTISERS HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SUBMIT ANY KIND OF CONTENT THEY WANT, BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR FREE SPEECH RIGHT.

IT CAN CONTAIN LIES OR BIGOTRY OR TRUTH, BUT THE COMPANIES, THEN, THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, ALSO THEN HAVE A RIGHT AND A DUTY TO UPHOLD BASIC PLATFORM INTEGRITY FEATURES.

MOST OF THE MAJOR PLATFORMS HAVE WEAKENED OR RELAXED HOW THEY ARE NOW DEALING WITH POLITICAL ADS.

WHICH WILL ABSOLUTELY LEAD TO DISINFORMATION THRIVING ON THEIR PLATFORMS.

SO, THAT CALLS INTO QUESTION, YOU KNOW, HOW WILL USERS INTERACT WITH ADS THAT CONTAIN FALSITY?

HOW WILL THEY INTERACT AND WHO WILL EVEN SEE THAT CONTENT?

CURRENTLY, THESE COMPANIES OPERATE IN ALMOST TOTAL 0 PASSTY.

WE HAVE VERY LITTLE INSIGHT INTO VISIBILITY, HOW PEOPLE ENGAGE WITH CONTENT.

AND SO, TO BETTER UNDERSTAND IT, RESEARCHERS ARE TRYING TO INVESTIGATE, BUT THEY'RE GETTING ATTACKED FOR THAT.

SO, TO EVEN UNDERSTAND THE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THESE POLITICAL ADS POLICIES ARE RELAXED, IT COMES WITH SO MANY BARRIERS TO TECH ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> SO, WHAT ARE THE SOLUTIONS THAT THESE PLATFORMS CAN TAKE?

BECAUSE OFTENTIMES, IT IS CHALLENGED BY THIS NOTION OF, WELL, THIS JUST FALLS UNDER FREE SPEECH, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT HERE TO MONITOR AND POLICE WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL HATE SPEECH, WE'RE GOING TO BE HERE FOR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN ALL ITS FORMS.

>> WELL, FIRST, THE PLATFORM SHOULD NOT BE GOING AFTER RESEARCHERS WHO ARE TRYING TO INVESTIGATE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THESE PLATFORMS.

THERE IS A VERY HORRIFIC, CHILLING EFFECT THAT'S HAPPENING NOW WITHIN THE TECH ACCOUNTABILITY FIELD.

PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO INVESTIGATE AND DIG INTO THE DATA OF WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THESE PLATFORMS, BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF BEING RETALIATED AGAINST OR EVEN SUED.

ELON MUSK PERSONALLY HAS GONE AFTER RESEARCHERS FOR DOING THEIR JOBS.

BUT THERE'S SO MUCH THAT THE COMPANIES CAN DO, AND I FEEL I WOULD BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T MENTION THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, IN THE NEXT 12 MONTHS, A MASSIVE ELECTION SEASON.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE OVER 40 NATIONAL ELECTIONS AROUND THE WORLD, AND MOST PEOPLE WILL USE SOCIAL MEDIA TO UNDERSTAND ISSUES OF THE DAY.

IT IS INCUMBENT ON THE MAJOR PLATFORMS TO REINVEST IN CONTENT MODERATION AND THEIR TRUST AND SAFETY TEAMS.

ELON MUSK, JUST TO NAME ONE, HE GUTTED HIS BOARD OF DIRECTORS, HIS TRUST AND SAFETY COUNCIL.

THERE IS NO DIRECTOR FOR THEIR TRUST AND SAFETY TEAM, AND HE'S CUT THOUSANDS OF JOBS, MOST OF THEM, THE CRITICAL PIECES TO ETHICAL ENGINEERING, A.I., TRUST AND SAFETY.

WE NEED THOSE PEOPLE BACK.

WE NEED ALL OF THESE XEEFS TO REINVEST, TO MAKE PLATFORM INTEGRITY A PRIORITY.

WHEN THEY DON'T DO THAT, WE'VE SEEN THAT THE REAL WORLD IMPACT IS ON USERS AND DEMOCRACIES.

>> WHERE'S THE INCENTIVE FOR THESE PLATFORMS TO TAKE THESE STEPS?

BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT STRUCTURALLY, THERE WOULD BE A DISINCENTIVE HERE.

AGAIN, ALL THE -- IF I ALLOW, FOR EXAMPLE, NEWS OR POLITICAL SPEECH ON MY PLATFORM, THEN THERE'S AN EXPECTATION THAT I MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF WHAT'S BEING SAID, EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, MOST PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THINK I AM.

RIGHT?

SO, I WONDER WHAT GIVES FACEBOOK OR GOOGLE OR X ANY INCENTIVE TO SAY, I SHOULD BE IN THIS SPACE, BECAUSE THE RETURN, THE WAY THAT THEY PROBABLY LOOK AT IT, ON THIS IS VERY LOW, AND THE HEADACHE QUOTIENT IS VERY HIGH.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, OVER THE LAST YEAR, FREE PRESS AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON AN INITIATIVE CALLED STOP TOXIC TWITTER.

PART OF OUR WORK WAS PARTNERING WITH BRANDS WHO ULTIMATELY DIVESTED FROM TWITTER.

THEY SAW THAT HATE WAS RISING, AND THAT HAS MADE A MASSIVE FINANCIAL DENT IN TWITTER.

THAT COMPANY IS NOW VALUED AT LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT ELON MUSK BOUGHT IT FOR.

WHICH HELPS REINFORCE THAT CONTENT MODERATION, THAT PLATFORM INTEGRITY, THESE VALUES ARE GOOD FOR SOMEONE'S BOTTOM LINE.

AND IT'S A QUESTION NOW OF, WILL OTHER PLATFORMS FOLLOW SUIT?

WILL THEY SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL, THAT ELON MUSK'S COMPLETE EROSION OF A FUNCTIONAL PLATFORM HAS DECIMATED HIS BOTTOM LINE?

I HOPE SO.

THAT'S THE WORK THAT WE'RE NOW DOING.

>> SO, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT U.S. REGULATORS CAN AND SHOULD DO, CONSIDERING THAT THE EU HAS TAKEN A VERY DIFFERENT APPROACH AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO MEASURE SUCCESS ON WHAT'S WORKING THERE AND WHAT'S NOT WORKING HERE, BUT ARE THERE SOME LESSONS THAT WE CAN TAKE?

>> WELL, WE'RE WAITING TO SEE WHAT COMPLIANCE WILL LOOK LIKE FOR EUROPE'S DIGITAL SERVICES ACT.

AND I'M EAGER TO SEE THAT.

FOR ANY VIOLATION THAT A COMPANY MAY COMMIT, THEY'LL BE FINED 6% OF THEIR ANNUAL REVENUE.

THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF ELON MUSK COULD SURVIVE THAT, GIVEN HOW MANY HORRIFIC ACTIONS TWITTER HAS TAKEN.

BUT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, I WOULD SAY WE HAVE TO START WITH MINIMIZING THE DATA COLLECTED ABOUT US, BECAUSE THE DATA COLLECTED ABOUT US IS ULTIMATELY WHAT ALLOWS PLATFORMS TO CREATE DIFFERENT, SOMETIMES DISCRIMINATORY EXPERIENCES FOR US.

THEY USE THEIR A.I.

TOOLS, THEIR ALGORITHMS, TO SORT THROUGH WHERE USERS CAN GET CONTENT.

AND THAT ULTIMATELY LEADS TO ECHO CHAMBERS, SILOS, AND MISUNDERSTANDING.

SO, WE NEED LAWMAKERS TO TAKE UP THAT TASK, TO MINIMIZE THE DATA COLLECTED ABOUT US, AND TO PRIORITIZE HUMAN RIGHTS.

>> NORA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, HARI.

>> AND JUST A NOTE, CNN HAS LEARNED FROM SOURCES THAT A DEAL FREEING DOZENS OF CIVILIANS COULD BE REACHED WITHIN DAYS.

CERTAINLY, THAT HOPE HAS BEEN RAISED SO OFTEN, AND TODAY IN LONDON, FAMILIES OF ISRAELI HOSTAGES HELD A PRESS CONFERENCE.

AND, OF COURSE, THEY BEGGED THE WORLD NEVER TO FORGET THE CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN KIDNAPPED AND WHO HAVE BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS IN GAZA, AND, OF COURSE, THOSE WHO WERE KILLED ON OCTOBER 7th INSIDE ISRAEL.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, AFTER 77 YEARS, THE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER AND FIRST LADY ROSALYNN CARTER HAS ENDED.

THE FORMER FIRST LADY DIED ON SUNDAY.

SHE WAS 96 YEARS OLD.

IT ALL BEGAN IN GEORGIA IN 1946, WHEN THE TWO GOT MARRIED SHORTLY AFTER JIMMY GRADUATED FROM THE NAVAL ACADEMY.

SHE WAS 18, HE WAS 21.

LIKE ELEANOR ROOSEVELT, NANCY REAGAN AND HILLARY CLINTON, ROSALYNN HELPED REINVITE THE ROLE OF FIRST LADY.

SHE WORKED TIRELESSLY ON BEHALF OF MENTAL HEALTH.

AND SHE ALSO HELPED REVOLUTIONIZE THE POST-PRESIDENCY, AS THE CARTERS DEVOTED THEIR LIVES TO HUMAN RIGHTS AND TO STRENGTHENING DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD.

JIMMY CARTER, WHO STUNNED EVEN HIS FAMILY BY CELEBRATING HIS 99th BIRTHDAY IN OCTOBER, EIGHT MONTHS AFTER ENTERING HOSPICE CARE, HAS SAID THAT HIS PROUDEST ACHIEVEMENT WAS MARRYING ROSALYNN, CALLING IT THE PINNACLE OF MY LIFE.

IN A STATEMENT, THE 99-YEAR-OLD SAID ROSALYNN WAS HIS EQUAL PARTNER IN EVERYTHING THEY EVER ACCOMPLISHED.

OVER THE YEARS, THE COUPLE WAS OFTEN ASKED TO SHARE THEIR SOUGHTS ON THEIR ENDURING MARRIAGE.

>> HOW HAS YOUR LONG AND VIBRANT MARRIAGE ENRICHED YOUR LIFE AND WORK?

>> YOU ANSWER FIRST.

SHE CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING?

>> I DON'T KNOW -- I'VE BEEN MARRIED ALL OF MY LIFE, ALMOST.

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW IT COULD HAVE BEEN ENRICHED MORE HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR JIMMY CARTER.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

♪♪