The American in the Vatican.

Pope Leo XIV is the first American to lead the 1.4 billion Catholics.

And now, after nearly a year of advocating for the poor and cautiously opposing controversial U.S.

policies, Leo is offering a more public contrast with President Trump, condemning leaders who use God to justify war.

On this Easter weekend, how political will the former missionary become?

And how much influence can the American pope have?

Tonight on "Compass Points."

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Additional support is provided by Friends of the News Hour.

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Thank you.

Once again, from the David M. Rubenstein Studio at WETA in Washington, moderator Nick Schifrin.

Hello, and welcome to "Compass Points."

Last Easter Sunday, 2025, Pope Francis met Vice President J.D.

Vance at a moment of political tension.

And the pope, who had long advocated for migrants, took issue with President Trump's immigration policy.

That meeting would be one of Pope Francis's last.

Weeks later, American-born Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost was elected and became Pope Leo XIV.

In the last year, he has been less outspoken than his predecessor and largely avoided the T-word, Trump.

But he's advocated for multilateralism and criticized war and those who wage it, while embracing his role as custodian of the church.

To discuss Pope Leo's first year, his influence on U.S.

foreign policy, and what his recent criticism says about his future approach, I'm joined by Joseph Capizzi, dean of the School of Theology and Religious Studies at the Catholic University of America.

Father Thomas Reese, a senior analyst at Religion News Service.

Annie Selak, visiting scholar at Georgetown University's Center on Faith and Justice.

And Stephen P. White, the executive director of the St.

John Paul II National Shrine here in DC.

Thanks very much, all of you.

Welcome to "Compass Points".

Pope Leo is an American, which makes him a unique pope at a unique moment with an untraditional American president.

Joseph Capizzi, start with you.

How does that shape his approach to the papacy, if at all?

Capizzi: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it shapes it significantly.

This is the first time that we've had the leader of the world and the leader of the largest single church in the world both hail from the United States of America.

He speaks with a great deal of intimacy about the American situation.

I think you see him increasingly leaning into that role.

So there's no question that by virtue of being an American, this pope understands his role as being a kind of counterweight to political forces in the world, especially given that his home country is a single most dominant political force in the world.

Schifrin: Stephen White, a counterweight?

Is that how you see his approach?

White: Yes, but with a qualification.

I mean, I think it would be foolish to suppose that the pope is not aware that he's an American and so is Trump, that the role America plays is unique in a certain sense.

But I wouldn't expect Pope Leo to define himself or his pontificate in distinction to or contradistinction to Donald Trump.

I think he understands the papacy to be something that's bigger, that the organization, the institution which he is the head of is much bigger and older and has a very different horizon of self-understanding and interaction with the world than just the political sphere.

So I think it's true what Joe said, but I also think that to conceive of Pope Leo, his role, or to think that his conception of his own role is thought of mostly in geopolitical terms is to miss a much broader picture.

Schifrin: Annie Selak, is that how you see it?

Not about geopolitics, but about custodian of the church?

That's how I would have agreed with it a week ago.

But I think what we're seeing in the past few weeks, as tensions are rising all around the world, and we have this new war in Iran, I think we're seeing someone who really is putting himself out there and saying, "I'm the pope, I am the leader of this church, and I'm going to use that moral authority to speak to that."

And we see him, we see other leaders rallying around him, right?

So the Dalai Lama put out a statement that was like, "Yeah, I agree with what Pope Leo said."

So I think we're seeing that change.

Schifrin: Father Reese, seeing that change?

We'll hear from the pope in a second, but you see that change too?

Well, you know, when Pope Leo was elected, the first thing that I thought of was Donald Trump is no longer the most important American in the world.

We have a pope who's an American, that's extraordinary.

I never would have predicted it.

But he's an American who has international experience.

He spent most of his ministry as a priest and as a bishop in Peru.

He's traveled all over the world to like more than 40 countries before he became pope.

This is a man who knows what's going on in the world and pays attention to it and recognizes how what happens impacts human beings, people.

And so when he speaks out, he speaks as a pastor on political issues, on issues that have an impact on real people.

All right.

So he has become more outspoken this week, holy week, as the war in Iran entered its second month.

So let's listen to his direct message to President Trump to end the war, and then his message on Palm Sunday.

Pope Leo XIV: Hopefully he's looking for an off ramp.

Hopefully he's looking for a way to decrease the amount of violence, of bombing, which would be a significant contribution to removing the hatred that's being created and that's increasing constantly.

Interpreter: Brothers and sisters, this is our God, Jesus, King of Peace, who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war.

He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them saying, "Even though you make many prayers, "I will not listen.

"Your hands are full of blood.

"I will not listen.

"Your hands are full of blood."

That is a quotation from the book of Isaiah.

Joe Capizzi, why is Isaiah significant?

Isaiah is a prophet.

So clearly the Pope is invoking a kind of prophetic voice in a moment where he believes the voice needs to be heard.

The chapter is really a wonderful chapter.

I recommend anybody take a look at it to see what Isaiah is telling the people.

It's both a kind of reminder of those in power.

"You are being judged by God in your exercise of power."

And the chapter continues by saying, "You were better than this.

"You turned from justice to injustice.

"Your hands are now filled with blood.

"You can wash them clean "by, you know, stepping towards justice again."

So I think this is extremely significant that he's doing this.

I also want to add to this, too.

The war is not just in Iran.

The Pope is not just concerned about the war in Iran.

He's concerned about what's happening in Lebanon as well and the possibilities of the expansion of this.

So this is a Pope who, as Stephen said, is concerned not merely about the sort of geopolitical, but the way that this is spiritually attacking the communities, the Christian, the Jewish and the Muslim communities of these areas.

So there's no question he cares prophetically about the moment now.

And that's why he's invoking the prophet Isaiah.

Tom, how political is this?

Reese: Well, all Popes, part of their role is to be prophetic and to speak about the issues from a value perspective and talk about how politics impacts human beings, individuals, families.

And when a Pope sees these having a negative impact on human beings, then he has an obligation to speak out.

Schifrin: Any Pope, not just an American Pope.

Reese: And they have, through the ages.

And this is extremely important, and that's why I think Pope Leo is doing it.

Now, he does it in a very polite way.

Schifrin: Not like his predecessor.

Well, and not like... like, you know, the opposition in the United States.

You know, he doesn't attack people.

He's very careful in his language.

He's very polite.

You know, he's making clear that he disagrees with Trump, but he's not ad hominem.

He's not, you know... Because he wants to leave the door open for improvement, for dialogue, for conversation, and realizes that Trump is the one who can lead us out, who can find the off-ramp to this war.

Could be better, put it at the point of Isaiah.

I mean, Stephen, in some ways, this isn't new, of course, right?

I mean, even John Paul II came out against both Iraq wars.

I mean, is this an obligation for the Pope to say this kind of thing?

Yeah, I think particularly in the modern world, it would be very, very surprising if a Pope didn't sort of reflexively take the side of peace, of de-escalation.

I think one of the interesting points, building on what Tom said, is that Pope Leo speaks in the two comments we saw.

One was him addressing a reporter's question directly towards President Trump.

He speaks as someone who believes that there's at least the hope and the possibility of convincing the President to take a different tack.

He's not just sort of speaking to the void, he's speaking to persuade someone he believes is capable of changing his path.

Schifrin: And speaking in American English, of course.

White: Yes.

Schifrin: Knowing full well... White: I think that's an important point.

The other clip we saw was quoting from a homily on Palm Sunday.

And I think it's interesting to look at the bigger context of that homily.

On Palm Sunday, every Catholic in the world who goes to services sees, hears the passion of Jesus read in its full.

It's one of the longest gospels of the year.

And it's a story of someone who, as Catholics believe, is God, who comes into a position where he's facing death.

His followers try to fight for him.

He says, "Don't do that."

And he allows himself to be given over to the powers of the world, because he knows that God doesn't need our resorting to force to bring about the justice that he leads.

So in that context, that gospel is not simply an appeal to peace.

It's an appeal to think beyond what are sort of the confines of what political necessity may seem to dictate, to think beyond the possibilities of force and simply of statecraft, to look to the broader horizon that Jesus... Reese: He even went so far as to say that Christ is being crucified now, again, and in the suffering of the people who, you know, around the world, who are suffering because of this war.

Yeah, he puts it in a theological perspective.

And it's not that there aren't political implications.

Obviously there are, but I think those have to be understood in that broader context that really gives the emphasis I think Leo wants us to take.

Schifrin: And we don't know exactly who he was responding to or what he was responding to.

But let me just suggest one possibility.

And that is that this statement by Secretary Hegseth in late March, quoting a chaplain who shared it with Secretary Hegseth.

First a reading from the book of Psalms, 18:37-42.

King David writes, "I pursued my enemies and overtook them "and did not turn back till they were consumed.

"Let every round find its mark "against the enemies of righteousness "and our great nation.

"Give them wisdom in every decision, "endurance for the trial ahead, "unbreakable unity, "and overwhelming violence of action "against those who deserve no mercy."

Schifrin: "Overwhelming violence of action."

Annie, do we think this is what the Pope's responding to?

Well, I think the Pope is kind of key.

I have a little different view than the other panelists.

I think he's not being as polite as he started out, right?

So when he says things like "You cannot use God's name to justify war," yes, I think that's absolutely addressing Hegseth.

But I also think it's bigger, I think we can look at the Trump administration and the leadership.

There's a lot of Catholics in it, right?

So this sense, he also said things earlier that week, "Hey, everyone who is involved in this war, "you need to do an examination of conscience.

You need to repent.

"God does not hear the prayers "of those who use his name to justify war."

So when we look at that, he's not talking to Israel.

He's talking to Christians, right?

He's not talking to Iran.

That leaves one option, right?

He's talking to the Trump administration.

So I think he is really facing this head on and trying to use every single tool that he has.

I mean, he reached out to journalists and said, "You need to cover the victims of war.

"Don't just cover this from a geopolitical view.

"Look at the victims."

And then the Vatican newspaper put the digging of mass graves on its front page and cut a lot of flack for that.

And he's saying like, "No, this is actually where we go."

So I think he's trying to redirect everyone's attention.

This is not the first time that he has at least waded into politics.

He hasn't avoided commenting.

First, there was immigration a few months ago.

And last November, American bishops released a special pastoral letter criticizing multiple aspects of the Trump administration's immigration policy.

And Pope Leo gave a statement.

He encouraged all Americans to read what the bishop's letter said.

He said that immigrants in the U.S.

had been treated, quote, "extremely disrespectfully."

And then he added this.

Pope Leo XIV: Someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants in the United States.

I don't know if that's pro-life.

I mean, Stephen, is this a political stance?

Yeah.

So it was interesting when he made that comment.

The next time someone asked him something that touched on American politics, he said, "I'm not going to get into that."

I think that was his first, I don't want to say misstep.

I'm not suggesting he didn't say something that he meant.

I think that was November of last year.

It was one of his first forays into sort of testing the waters.

And look, the church's position on a lot of these things are very nuanced.

And it's hard to get a clear moral message across without losing the nuance, especially in a soundbite that's going to reverberate around the world.

So I think what you're seeing is the advantage of having a Pope who is very cautious in his approach about these things.

He's very deliberate.

He doesn't tend to say things he doesn't mean.

And he tends not to say things that he hasn't thought carefully about how he wants to phrase them.

And I think that's helpful.

It helps his message get through more clearly.

And it also avoids some of the noise and the static that can come from sort of lots of different soundbites.

Capizzi: Don't you think it's also fair to say about that particular comment that he doesn't speak to the policy?

He's concerned about the way people are being treated, which is a note the bishops make as well.

That we're not per se addressing the policy, because policy is somewhat outside of our ambit.

But we are really concerned about the way immigrants are being treated.

Nobody ought to be treated inhumanely.

And whenever you're treating somebody inhumanely, you're really sort of undermining your claim to be somebody who is for the person, for life, and so on.

I thought that that was a piece of the care he's taking by making that kind of comment.

White: Yeah, I would disagree.

I mean, we don't need to get into the weeds of the specifics around the question that he was asked in response to that comment.

It had to do with the invitation of a certain senator by a... Very complicated.

But I think it was, yes, he is someone who, and like his predecessors, going way back, Pope John Paul II was excellent at always coming back to the human person, focusing on the dignity of the human person.

And if that is in jeopardy, if that's threatened, then there's something that Christians need to be doing to address that, whether they're in power, whether it's ordinary people.

So bringing the focus back to the person, back to the people who are suffering, back to the mass graves you mentioned, where there's human suffering, the church needs to be there and needs to be standing on the side of those who are weakest.

Reese: On immigration, I think the pope is very strongly supporting what the bishops are doing, and encouraging them to be even stronger.

Schifrin: And would the bishops be able to have said what they said, though, without the pope's blessing?

Well, actually, the bishops have been very strong on immigration, even during the first Trump administration, the language they used on attacking his immigration policies.

Sadly, it wasn't covered all that much because the media was more attuned to the bishop's attack on Catholic Democrats who were pro-choice and didn't tend to cover that.

But now that Biden is gone, they're hearing the bishops attack the Trump administration on immigration.

And for the bishops, it's very personal.

These are their parishioners.

These are the people.

They know them by name.

They hear from the families when someone is taken and imprisoned or deported.

So for them, it's very personal.

And, Annie, it sounds like you'd like to hear the pope say more of these kinds of statements.

Selak: Yes, I mean, I'm all for this because I think what people are looking at the church for is credibility.

And I think that's what's under attack in the church.

So in my book, "The Wounded Church," I talk about things that undermine credibility of the church, which is racism, sexism, clericalism, right?

So people look at the church and want it to live into its mission, right?

So I think immigration is a key point.

It also reminds me of the bishops from a few generations ago.

So if we look at Cardinal Bernadin, who was on the cover of "Time" magazine when he was coming out, when all the U.S.

bishops were coming out with their letters about just war theory and the challenge of peace and things like that.

We can also remember that this was the time that Pope Leo was in formation to be a priest.

This was the time that he was a young priest in the Chicago area, right?

So I think we're seeing a lot of that come out, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of the positioning about policy.

So far, he's saying, "You know what, bishops, "I want you all to be out there.

I want you to be active."

So that's in the U.S., but that's also all throughout the world, right?

So he has that mindset on a global church, not just a national church.

Capizzi: I don't think we're going to see more in part because I do think... Schifrin: This is as far as he's willing to go.

Capizzi: Well, I think the point about credibility is a good point, but I think he, because he's careful, recognizes too much speaking undermines credibility, that he has to be precise and careful about when he intervenes and how he intervenes.

Because just to keep intervening, then you just become another voice in the loud voices that happen in our society, and it's very easy at that point to be dismissed.

So in fact, he got a lot of gravity from these few statements because he took his time.

He's been precise and careful.

He's not ad hominem, to the point made earlier.

He tries generally to invite people.

So I don't expect to see like... This is provoked by a war, again, a war that's in the Middle East, the Holy Land.

This is part of the reason why he's speaking up right now, not because "I've waited, "now's the time, I'm going to start," now the gloves are off or something.

- That's my judgment.

Selak: I think he... I think he'll not be the main character.

He doesn't bring that big main character energy, but I think we're going to see that coming more from the bishops.

And that's where we see Cardinal Cupich coming in from Chicago and really taking a role in that.

Again, he's authorizing that, right?

I mean, he is empowering them.

Selak: I mean, so they don't need permission.

They don't send him a draft and then he signs off on it, right?

I think there's a culture.

I think what he can do is set a culture of saying, the church needs to be addressing the issues that people are struggling with, because it is personal, as Tom said, right?

These are people who are known by name, and that's how the gospel is lived out.

It's not lived out in these big statements alone.

It's lived out in our day-to-day choices.

And, Tom, just quickly ask about women in the church.

He has basically reclosed the idea of women as deacons in the church.

Deacons, of course, are ordained ministers who are able to perform some of the sacraments, but are not priests and are able to have a family.

What does that say a bout how far he's willing to go on an issue like women in the church?

I think he's pretty much the same as Pope Francis.

Schifrin: There is a continuity there, right?

Absolutely, which means he would like to see women in all sorts of positions in the Vatican, as head of offices, head of dicasteries, see women doing jobs in chanceries and in parishes.

It's everything except ordination is basically the bottom line is where they are.

That will be disappointing to many of us, but that's the world in which we live.

And that would be huge progress outside of the United States.

Schifrin: To have female leadership in the Vatican.

Oh, in the global South to empower women is extremely important.

We've got a couple of minutes left, and I want to bring up just a point here that I've been obviously emphasizing the political, the controversial, if you will.

But, you know, on this Holy Week, I wanted to hear from the Pope basically say at his core what his mission is.

And so we found this statement that he made on his first foreign trip.

We hope to also announce, transmit, and proclaim how important peace is throughout the world, and to invite all people to come together, to search for greater unity, greater harmony, and to look for the ways that all men and women can truly be brothers and sisters in spite of differences, in spite of different religions, in spite of different beliefs.

Because Stephen, that is his core message, right?

White: Yeah.

When he first walked out in the loggia after he was elected Pope, one of the first things he did was talk about peace.

At this time of year, the idea of reconciliation is always important to Catholics, but what we remember at this time of year is God's willingness to die to reconcile man and God and to man with man.

So I think that's the center of his message and will continue to be going forward.

Joseph, and we will get that continuity moving forward from the Pope, regardless of whether he weighs in on these politics, right?

No, absolutely.

Yeah, peace is going to be the message that he continues throughout.

He's an Augustinian, so he's got a good practical understanding of what that means, a kind of ordered and just, you know, political and social situation that invites as many people in, rather than excluding people.

And that inclusion message, Tom, is what he'll continue to do, because that's what every Pope does, but that's also who he is, right?

Absolutely.

I mean, the Catholic Church tries to be the big tent.

We're universal.

We have people all over the world and every country, and we want to have people coming together to recognize how much God loves us and how God calls us to love one another as brothers and sisters.

That's the message of Easter.

That's the message that Leo, I think, is preaching.

And Annie, in the last 30 seconds or so we have left, is that a message that Leo can pull off and that people will listen to, whether American or not?

I think so.

I mean, because at the end of the day, that's the mission of the Church, right?

The mission of the Church is to build a society, build a world where all are welcome, and that looks a little bit more like the Church that Jesus came to build, right?

So I think what I'll be looking for, though, are those questions around, like, what is the role of women?

How do women actually have authority or not?

What does that look like?

How does the Church continue to respond to sexual abuse, right?

The Diocese of Albany just came out this week with a big statement around that.

So I think there's a lot there that we'll be waiting for.

All right.

Well, thank you very much, all of you.

That's all the time we have left.

So Annie Selak, Stephen White, Joseph Capizzi, and Father Thomas Reese, thank you all very much.

And thank you for being here.

I'm Nick Schifrin.

We'll see you here again next week on "Compass Points".

Announcer: Support for "Compass Points" has been provided by... the Judy and Peter Blum Kovler Foundation, Camilla and George Smith, the Dorney-Koppel Foundation, the Gruber Family Foundation, and Cap and Margaret Anne Eschenroeder.

The Judy and Peter Blum Kovler Foundation.

Upholding freedom by strengthening democracies at home and abroad.

Additional support is provided by Friends of the News Hour.

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