>>> NOW, SINCE COMING INTO OFFICE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN WAGING A WAR ON DEI, CALLING INTO QUESTION THE HARD WORK OF MANY WHO SHAPED THE UNITED STATES.

TAKE ONE AMERICAN SEMI-RY, WORLD WAR II SEMI-RY IN THE NETHERLANDS WHERE THE DISPLAY ONCE COMMEMORATED THE BLACK SOCCERS TASKED WITH BURYING THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN TROOPS.

BUT IN MARCH THAT DISPLAY WAS TAKEN DOWN BY A FEDERAL COMMISSION ON GROUNDS OF, QUOTE, INTERPRETIVE CONTENT.

NOW IN THE FACE OF ACTS LIKE THESE, CONGRESSMAN JIM CLYBURN HAS WRITTEN A NEW BOOK, PROFILING THE PIONEERING BLACK POLITICIANS OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO WHOM HE ATTRIBUTES HIS OWN CAREER SUCCESS.

CLYBURN WAS THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN TO REPRESENT SOUTH CAROLINA SINCE 1897.

AND HIS BOOK "THE FIRST EIGHT" FOCUSES ON THE TRAILBLAZING BLACK LAWMAKERS FROM HIS OWN STATE.

HE IS SPEAKING TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE PARALLELS BETWEEN THE BATTLE FOR DEMOCRACY IN THE PAST AND PRESENT.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

REPRESENTATIVE JIM CLYBURN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THIS IS NOT A TRADITIONAL POLITICAL MEMOIR.

YOU CHOSE TO TURN TO HISTORY, TO THE EIGHT BLACK CONGRESSMEN WHO WERE ELECTED TO REPRESENT SOUTH CAROLINA BEFORE YOU, AND YOU ALSO WEAVED IN SOME OF YOUR PERSONAL REFLECTIONS.

WHY TAKE THIS ROUTE?

>> WELL, I THOUGHT ABOUT THESE EIGHT PEOPLE FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

MY FATHER, WHEN I WAS A YOUNGSTER, MADE ME LEARN EVERYTHING ABOUT ROBERT SMALLS.

I KNEW THAT ROBERT SMALLS WAS BORN ENSLAVED, THAT HE HAD ESCAPED SLAVERY AND BECOME A MEMBER OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND OF CONGRESS.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW A WHOLE LOT ABOUT THE OTHERS.

BUT MY DAD INSISTED EVERY DAY AFTER WE FINISHED DOING HOMEWORK, WE HAD TO SHARE WITH HIM A CURRENT EVENT.

SO I GOT INVOLVED IN AND INTERESTED IN POLITICS AT A VERY EARLY AGE.

AND SO RIGHT AFTER I WROTE MY REGULAR MEMOIR, I RECEIVED VISITORS IN MY OFFICE ONE DAY.

AND ONE OF THEM ASKED ME ABOUT THESE EIGHT PICTURES UP ON MY WALL.

WHEN I EXPLAINED WHO THEY WERE, ONE OF THEM SAID TO ME, I THOUGHT YOU WERE THE FIRST.

AND I KIND OF PLAYFUL, NO, BEFORE I WAS FIRST, THERE WERE EIGHT.

AND I DECIDED THAT DAY THAT MAYBE I WOULD MAKE MY NEXT BOOK ABOUT THESE EIGHT PEOPLE.

AND I STARTED TO REALLY WORKING ON IT LEISURELY.

AND THEN THE 2020 ELECTION HAPPENED.

AND I STARTED SEEING WHAT WAS GOING ON UP IN MICHIGAN, PENNSYLVANIA, DOWN IN GEORGIA, TRYING TO DEVELOP THESE ALTERNATIVE ELECTORS FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

AND I RECOGNIZED FROM THESE PEOPLE'S LIVES SOMETHING'S GOING ON.

WE WERE TRYING TO GET THE NEXT PRESIDENT CERTIFIED AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE PRESIDENT WHO WAS JUST LOST WAS THEN TRYING TO GET THAT CERTIFICATION ANOTHER FIVE, EXACTLY WHAT LED TO THE DEMISE OF THE CAREERS OF THESE EIGHT PEOPLE.

AND SO I CHANGED THE DIRECTION, STARTED THE BOOK OVER AND DECIDED TO FOCUS ON TIME, THEIR EXPERIENCES, TO WHAT WE WERE EXPERIENCING NOW.

AND QUITE FRANKLY, THE PARALLELS ARE VERY EERIE.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE PARALLELS, BUT I ALSO WANT TO INTRODUCE OUR AUDIENCE TO A COUPLE OF THESE CHARACTERS THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT.

LET'S START WITH ROBERT SMALL WHO YOU DISCUSSED BRIEFLY.

YOU SAY, "BY MY ESTIMATION, ROBERT SMALLS, THE ONLY BONA FIDE CIVIL WAR HERO OF THE EIGHT AND ONE OF ONLY TWO BLACKS TO SERVE AS A DELEGATE TO THE 1868 AND 1895 CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTIONS, WHICH GRANTED THEN REVOTED BLACK POLITICAL AND CIVIL RIGHTS IN THE STATE, LIVED THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL LIFE OF ANY SOUTH CAROLINIAN IN YOUR MEMORY. "

THAT IS ALREADY CONSEQUENTIAL IN ITSELF WHAT YOU DESCRIBED.

HOW DID HE GET TO THAT POSITION?

HOW DID HE SCAPE?

>> WELL, IT'S A MOST REMARKABLE EVENT I THINK IN THE ENTIRE CIVIL WAR.

ROBERT SMALLS WAS BORN ENSLAVED.

MOTHER GOT VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HIM AND HIS SAFETY LIVING IN SLAVERY.

SO SHE TALKED HER OWNER, JOHN McGEE, ROBERT SMALLS GO TO CHARLESTON TO WORK AND ALL THE INCOME OF COURSE WOULD GO TO THE OWNER.

AND ONE DAY WHILE WORKING ON THE WATERFRONT, HE'D ACHIEVED SOME DEGREE OF SOME ELEVATION AMONG HIS PEERS.

HE WAS PASS PRANCING AROUND THE SHIP ONE DAY AND PLAYFULLY THREW ON THE CAPTAIN'S HAT.

AND ONE OF HIS BROTHERS SAID TO HIM, "YOU LOOK REMARKABLY LIKE THE CAPTAIN UNDER THAT HAT. "

AND THAT GAVE HIM AN IDEA.

ROBERT SMALLS STARTED PLANNING AN ESCAPE.

HE IS USING THE PEOPLE HE WORKED WITH ON THE SHIP AND HIS FAMILY.

AND HE SUCCESSFULLY ABSCONDED THE PRIZED SHIP OF THE CONFEDERATE ARMY WHICH WAS THE PLANTER.

THEY STAYED ON THE PLANTER, GOT INTO FREEDOM.

HE THEN STARTED SERVING IN THE NAVY, AND BECAME THE FIRST CAPTAIN OF A NAVAL SHIP, THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN CAPTAIN IN THE NAVY.

SO I TELL YOUNG PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, AS MY DAD USED TO TELL ME, THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

SO WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT ALL THESE FIRSTS TODAY.

ROBERT SMALLS TO ME WAS A FIRST.

AND MAYBE THE ONLY REAL HERO OF THE CIVIL WAR.

THE FIRST BLACK CAPTAIN IN THAT WAR SERVED TEN YEARS IN THE SOUTH CAROLINA LEGISLATURE.

AND AFTER THAT, SERVED TEN YEARS IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.

ALL OF THAT WRAPPED UP IN ONE PERSON.

NOW HE ESCAPED IN MAY IN AUGUST OF THAT YEAR ROBERT SMALLS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

TO TRY TO CONVINCE LINCOLN, PRESIDENT LINCOLN TO ALLOW BLACKS TO SERVE IN THE WAR.

BECAUSE THEY WERE FORBIDDEN.

HE CONVINCED LINCOLN, AND LINCOLN AUTHORIZED HIM TO GO BACK TO SOUTH CAROLINA, RECRUIT 5,000 BLACK SOLDIERS WHICH LATER BECAME 40,000.

AND ABRAHAM LINCOLN HIMSELF SAID "BUT FOR THOSE 40,000 SOLDIERS AND OTHERS AFTER THEM, THAT WAR WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST BY THE UNION. "

>> YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK "FAITH IS A THROUGH LINE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, PARTICULARLY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY. "

WHO IS RICHARD KING?

WHY DOES HE STAND OUT?

>> RICHARD CANE WAS A NATIVE OF WEST VIRGINIA.

HIS FAMILY MOVED TO OHIO.

AND HE FELT A CALL TO THE MINISTRY AND WAS EDUCATED AT WILBERFORCE UNIVERSITY, THE FIRST PRIVATE HBCU.

BUT HE BECAME DISENCHANTED WITH THE METHODIST CHURCH THAT HE WAS A PASTOR IN.

SO HE LEFT THAT METHODIST CHURCH, BECAME AN AME.

AND THEN HE WAS SENT HERE TO NEW YORK.

AND HE BECAME THE PASTOR OF BRIDGE STREET AME CHURCH OVER IN BROOKLYN, NEW YORK.

BUT HE TRIED TO VOLUNTEER FOR THE UNION ARMY.

AND HE AND SEVERAL OTHERS WERE TURNED DOWN BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT ALLOWING BLACKS TO SERVE AND VERY EXPLICITLY SAID TO BLACKS, THIS IS A WHITE MAN'S WAR, AND WE HAVE STIPULATED IN THE BOOK THIS HAVING BEEN SAID.

BUT HE NEVER GAVE UP ON IT.

AND WHEN THE WAR WAS OVER, HE WAS SENT TO CHARLESTON BY THE AME MOVEMENT TO READ EMANUEL AME CHURCH WHICH HAD BEEN DESTROYED OVER THE ATTEMPTS BY AFRICAN AMERICANS TO ESCAPE.

1822, THE CHURCH HAD BURNED DOWN BECAUSE OF 30 SOME ODD PEOPLE WERE HANGED, AND OF COURSE HE WAS SO SUCCESSFUL AT REBUILDING THAT CHURCH.

I COULDN'T HOLD ALL THE PEOPLE.

SO HE STARTED A SECOND CHURCH, MORRIS BROWN AME CHURCH, WHICH I BECAME A MEMBER OF, AND HE WAS THE FIRST PASTOR OF.

BUT HE DID SOMETHING THAT WARNED PEOPLE ABOUT THE DAY.

HE USED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CHURCH.

HE BOUGHT A NEWSPAPER THAT HE PUBLISHED, AND BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THAT NEWSPAPER, HE BUILT A POLITICAL DYNASTY IN SOUTH CAROLINA AND BECAME A VERY ASTUTE MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND WAS A FOUNDER OF A HBCU DOWN IN TEXAS AND BECAME THE 14th BISHOP OF THE AME CHURCH.

>> GIVEN THE ELECTION RESULTS JUST RECENTLY, DO YOU THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATS MADE A MISTAKE IN STRIKING A DEAL, OR AT LEAST THE NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS WHO CROSSED OVER TO TRY TO END THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN MADE A MISTAKE?

>> YOU KNOW, NO, I DON'T.

I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR THIS BILL, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT DOES NOT GO WHERE I THINK IT SHOULD GO, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE.

I THINK THAT WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS BALANCE INTERESTS HERE.

WE GOT THE SNAP BENEFITS, THE PROBLEM WITH SNAP, WE GOT THAT ADDRESSED.

WE GOT THE PROBLEMS WITH THE WOMEN, INFANTS AND CHILDREN ADDRESSED.

THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT THINGS THAT DID GET ADDRESSED IN THIS DEAL.

BUT EVERYBODY'S FOCUSED ON THE ONE THING WE DIDN'T GET.

YOU KNOW, LYNDON JOHNSON I'LL NEVER FORGET WHEN WE WERE PASSING CIVIL RIGHTS LAWS IN 1960.

WHEN WE PASSED THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964, IN ORDER TO GET THE ACT PASSED, THEY TOOK VOTING OUT OF IT, AND THEY TOOK HOUSING OUT OF IT.

AND THEN IT PASSED DEALING ONLY WITH EMPLOYMENT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT ANGRY ABOUT THAT.

AND LYNDON JOHNSON FAMOUSLY SAID "A HALF LOAF IS BETTER THAN NO LOAF. "

SO LET'S APPLY THAT TO THIS.

WE MAY HAVE GOTTEN A HALF LOAF, BUT THAT'S BETTER THAN NO LOAF.

>> I WONDER RIGHT NOW THERE IS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DISENCHANTMENT WITH HOW THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WORKS, HOW RESPONSIVE PEOPLE FEEL GOVERNMENT.

LOOK, WE JUST STARTED HOPEFULLY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF A 40-PLUS DAY GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.

AND I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM ALL SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM WHO ARE SAYING THERE'S GOT TO BE SOMETHING BETTER THAN THIS.

THIS ISN'T WHAT WE VOTED FOR, JUST PERPETUAL KIND OF GRIDLOCK AND PEOPLE THROWING TANTRUMS AND DECIDING TO STAY IN THEIR CORNERS, AND IN THE MIDDLE PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.

>> THERE IS SOMETHING BETTER.

AND WORKING TOGETHER, WE CAN GET TO THAT SOMETHING BETTER.

BUT YOU DON'T GET TO THAT SOMETHING BETTER BY DROPPING OUT OF THE PROCESS.

YOU STAY ENGAGED IN THIS PROCESS.

AND YOU --IT'S ALMOST LIKE -- THE FIRST HALF WAS OVER, AND WE'RE BEHIND.

WE'RE LOSING.

THERE IS STILL GOING TO BE A SECOND HALF.

THEY STILL GOT LEGISLATION TO ADDRESS.

WE MAY NOT HAVE GOTTEN ALL THAT WE WANTED IN THIS ROUND, BUT WE'RE GOING HAVE IT ENGAGED AGAIN.

APPROPRIATION BILLS AND EVERYBODY KEEPS TALKING ABOUT THE MESSAGE.

I THINK THERE IS A CLEAR MESSAGE NOW.

PEOPLE WANT THINGS THAT ARE GREAT IN THIS COUNTRY TO BE AFFORDABLE AND ACCESSIBLE TO THEM.

AND SO WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO TO HAVE AN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IF EVERYBODY CAN'T AFFORD IT?

SAME WITH HEALTH CARE.

WE HAVE A GREAT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, BUT IS IT AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYBODY?

THE ELECTION OVER IN NEW JERSEY, THE ELECTION ASIDE FROM THAT TUNNEL WAS -- AND THE DEMOCRATS WE'RE GOING TO MAKE ENERGY COSTS AFFORDABLE.

WE'RE GOING TO FREEZE THE COST OF ENERGY.

AND EVERYBODY SAID SHE MIGHT SQUEAK BY.

SHE WON BY 13 POINTS.

DOWN IN VIRGINIA, IT IS ALL ABOUT CHILD CARE AND EDUCATION.

MAKING ALL THESE THINGS AFFORDABLE.

SHE WON BY 14 POINTS.

AND HERE WE GOT A MAYOR, A NEW MAYOR OF NEW YORK.

HE WON TRYING TO MAKE HOUSING AFFORDABLE.

SO THIS THING THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING IS A HOAX.

LET HIM KEEP TALKING.

YOU KEEP WALKING.

>> CONGRESSMAN, FINALLY, YOU CLOSE OUT YOUR BOOK WITH THE STATE MOTTO OF SOUTH CAROLINA, "WHILE I BREATHE, I HOPE. "

AND I WONDER WHAT IS IT THAT GIVES YOU THIS ETERNAL OPTIMISM, CONSIDERING THAT YOU'VE LITERALLY BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES SO MANY TIMES WHERE PEOPLE WOULD GIVE UP.

WHAT SPURS THAT SENSE OF PURPOSE AND KIND OF MAYBE MISSION IN THE MORNING WHEN YOU SAY WE CAN STILL MAKE SOMETHING BETTER?

BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND OF LOOKING FOR THAT HOPE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER QUESTIONING MY DAD ABOUT JUST WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

I HAD A REAL PROBLEM WHEN MY FATHER WAS A FUNDAMENTALIST MINISTER, I QUESTIONED A LOT.

ABOUT WHAT HE WAS PREACHING AND WHAT I WAS LIVING.

NOW I'LL NEVER FORGET ONE DAY HE SAID TO ME, SON, THE DARKEST POINT OF THE NIGHT IS THAT MOMENT JUST BEFORE DAWN.

AND THAT HAS SO MUCH MEANING TO ME.

AND IT STILL HAS.

I KNOW HOW DARK IT MAY SEEM, BUT WE COULD VERY WELL BE IN THAT MOMENT JUST BEFORE DAWN.

SO YOU DON'T GIVE UP ON THE PROCESS.

YOU KEEP PRESSING FORWARD.

AND SO I SAY TO YOUNG PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, ROBERT SMALLS DID NOT GIVE UP.

WHEN ROBERT SMALLS, WHO HAD THE CONGRESS --THE CONGRESS WAS INDICTED ON TRUMPED UP CHARGES AND WAS PUT IN JAIL AND WAS OFFERED RELIEF IF HE WOULD JUST GET OUT OF POLITICS.

HE REFUSED.

HE REFUSED.

AND SO I SAY TO YOUNG PEOPLE, NO MATTER HOW DARK IT IS TODAY, NO MATTER HOW DIFFICULT THE TASK MAY BE, YOU CAN'T GIVE UP ON THIS PROCESS.

ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE GOT CHILDREN.

AND YOU'VE GOT GRANDCHILDREN.

SO YOU'RE GOING TO QUIT, THEN WHAT'S GOING TO BE THEIR FUTURE?

SO IF THEY DON'T HAVE A FUTURE, IT MUST NOT BE BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T DO YOUR DARNEDEST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE.

>> REPRESENTATIVE JIM CLYBURN FROM SOUTH CAROLINA, ALSO THE AUTHOR OF "THE FIRST EIGHT," THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.