♪ ♪ ♪ >> Next on "The Chavis Chronicles," we are honored to have the distinguished president of the University of the District of Columbia, Dr. Ronald Mason, and distinguished researcher, Dr. Sonya Horsford.

That's next, on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪ ♪ >> Dr. Mason, welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you, Dr. Chavis.

Good to see you again.

>> Always good to see you.

Man, you've had such an illustrious career, even before you got to UDC.

You were the distinguished president of Jackson State University and the distinguished president of Southern University in Baton Rouge.

And now, how long have you been at UDC?

>> I'm in my sixth year right now.

>> Six years.

>> Yeah, I was 10 years at Jackson State, five years in the Southern system, and six years at UDC.

And before that, I was 17 years at Tulane University.

>> Wow.

>> So, I've been around a while.

>> Yes.

Higher education.

>> Higher education, sir.

>> And are you originally from Louisiana?

>> I'm originally from New Orleans, third generation, maybe fourth.

I lost track.

>> Okay.

>> Everybody in my family is still down there, except for my wife and I.

We're up here.

>> All right.

So, what led you to such a long, distinguished career in higher education?

>> Well, I'll tell you this.

It wasn't a plan.

I'm a lawyer by training.

And when I got out of law school, I actually worked with a guy named Reverend A.J.

McKnight at a place called Southern Cooperative Development Fund, and I spent almost five years working with him, organizing and financing low-income co-ops in the South.

And then he and I got into an argument, to be honest with you, and I was at my last cocktail party for that company.

And I was standing next to this guy, who had just become president of Tulane University.

And I said, "Look.

I just quit.

I guess I won't be seeing you anymore."

And he said, "You know what?

I just created this position, university attorney, at Tulane.

Why don't you apply, and we'll see what happens."

And that's how I got into higher education.

It wasn't a plan at all.

I just happened to be at the right place at the right time in the right conversation.

>> I follow what you've done over the last several years at UDC.

It is a first-class university in the true sense of the term "university."

Tell us something about the current status of UDC.

>> Well, I always introduce myself, when I speak, as "Ronald Mason, the president of the University of the District of Columbia, the public institution of higher learning in and for the nation's capital."

>> Yes.

>> Because we are the only public university in the District of Columbia.

We're the only exclusively urban land-grant university in the country.

We have one land-grant service area, and it's the District.

We're an historically black university.

To understand UDC, look at us as if we were all the higher-education institutions in the state pushed into one organization in a very compact, highly efficient way.

We do workforce-certification programs that are free to every district resident.

We have a community college that does both academic and technical associate's degrees.

And then we have a bachelor's and above up to a PhD in urban leadership, a PhD in computer science and engineering.

And, of course, we have a nationally ranked law school, which has some of the best clinical programs in the country.

>> From your perspective, what are some of the leading programmatic or academic offerings that UDC currently has?

>> Yeah, we have 81 different academic degree programs, and we also have technical programs.

Look, we do everything from technology, starting with coding, all the way up through to computer science and engineering.

Yes.

>> That's a big -- That's a big field right now.

>> That's a big field right now.

In fact, we just did a partnership with Amazon Worldwide Services, AWS, where we -- the District has financed us to build out the entire pipeline from entry-level work all the way up through to the engineering degree.

And so that's going to be special.

We're very strong in healthcare administration.

>> Okay.

>> We do nursing both at the associates and at the RN to BSN level.

As a land grant, we have sustainability programs all over the District.

We have the largest rooftop organic garden in the District and we have community gardens all over the District.

One of the things that I think is very exciting about UDC is that, in the District, there's really one continuous public-education system that starts at the community, and then the pinnacle is the University of the District of Columbia.

And because it's all basically under one mayor, we're able to connect the dots going from the university to the high school, and then from the high school to the middle schools and on.

>> Sometimes education gets off to the side and not get the municipal support.

But you seem to have the support of the current administration.

>> We do.

You know, most people don't realize that, although UDC traces its roots back to 1851 -- Myrtilla Miner's School for Colored Girls, right?

-- the university itself was only created about 40 years ago, and so it's a very young institution, which makes it easy to mold and shape into what I think is going to be a modern model university for the rest of the country, but, also, it's had some growing pains.

And, you know, if you're from D.C. or live in D.C., you know, we've had our challenges, but we've slowly but surely been righting the ship over the last six years, and the Mayor's investment in the university has been growing, I guess, in reward of that.

And so now, this year, we had our best year in the legislature.

It's not a legislature.

It's actually the city council.

>> Yes.

>> But, you know, to me, it's a 16-person legislature.

If you're in Louisiana, you're dealing with a hundred people.

Here, it's about 16.

And the Mayor, you know, embraces us.

I think -- I think people realize that it is time to take care of the last piece of the puzzle of the district that was reset when the control board came to -- came through.

You know, they redid the public-school systems, they redid the parks, they redid the libraries.

The last thing on the list was the university, and it's our time.

>> Can you talk to us about the importance of the public at large first supporting our HBCUs but also supporting the organizations that represent HBCUs, but particularly in that field?

>> The way I describe the role of HBCUs in America is that we have sort of held America together until it's able to figure out this issue of race.

You've heard all of these companies talk about how they just can't find talent, right?

Well, if you think about it, and one of the reasons is that 77% of the wealth is controlled by 10% of the population, and 90% of that 10% is white.

Okay?

But to produce those kinds of outcomes, you know, you have to have a system that eliminates talent as part of the education process because you can't allow talent to compete on the basis of natural talent to end up with those kinds of numbers, right?

And so that's why everybody's complaining about talent, because we have to filter out the talent before it can compete at the highest levels.

But HBCUs overproduce, given the resources they have to work with, right?

We're kicking out these graduates in science and everything else.

And he asked me, "How can the HBCUs do that?"

And I think it's because we've correctly diagnosed the problem.

I mean, we don't -- we know what the issue is, and we know what our students are facing and up against, and we've learned to implement an education system that adjusts to the damage that the system of white supremacy tries to do, right?

And if you want to support HBCUs, don't do it because it's out of the goodness of your heart, do it because you need the talent, right?

And 90% of the talent is in these vast, untapped resources of talent that HBCUs specialize in producing.

>> Why in 2021 is a college education important for black America?

>> So there's the money part, right?

Everybody's heard the number that a college education is worth at least a million or two million more over the course of your lifetime.

But I'll say this, Ben.

I've noticed, the big push now from employers -- right?

-- not young black students but from employers -- is to push our students into workforce certification, right?

As if that is the highest level of their human potential.

And I think it's -- I think it goes back to that system I was talking about where, you know, that system envisions a place and a limit and a cap on where our students should be and what our students should do.

Right?

And at UDC, we resist that strongly, because even though these young people have limited vision sometime -- right?

-- because they live in a world that has limited their vision, you know, we do our best to open their eyes because we know that students who sometimes come to us as workforce certification students, that light bulb goes off, and they end up being, you know, bachelor's graduates, right?

But it's not just -- It's not just the students saying it, it's the students, in many ways, repeating everything that's being sold to them, and that's not by accident.

Yeah.

>> What's your answer to those who would surmise that maybe historically black colleges and universities have successfully run their course and they are no longer needed?

>> Most people don't realize that America has been -- was in slavery almost twice as long as it's been out of slavery.

And slavery was one of the most evil, heinous systems upon which this entire country was built.

And the legacy of that system -- right?

-- is still basically the legs upon which this country continues to walk.

And so if you ask me if HBCUs are still needed within that context, I'd say absolutely -- first, because there are a lot of traditional HBCU students who still need that protection in order to be able to carve out a space to make a life in a country that is, in many ways, hostile to them, right?

But then, second, and this is just true -- America really does need the talent, and the talent that it needs is in these vast talent reserves that it has been ignoring and, in many ways, stifling for years.

And if they want the expertise to extract the talent, they need to go to the people that know how to do it, and that's the HBCUs.

The strategic plan for the university is called The Equity Imperative, and we've been building an institution that I'm hoping can continue the fight for generations, because there's a great conversation going on in America right now about, "What is the nation?"

Is it going to be the one conceived in the Declaration of Independence or is it going to be the one -- the business model put together in the Constitution, right?

We want to be on the equity side of the conversation.

In a system that, by definition, has to be inequitable to work, you know, "equity" is just a word.

It's a goal that you cannot achieve.

And so I haven't shared this with my campus yet, but I'm hoping that the name of our next strategic plan will be Beyond Equity to Justice, because justice really is the goal.

And if we can focus the entire institution on justice in the nation's capital and train our students to be drum majors for justice and soldiers in the army that fights for justice, then maybe we can have not only a higher-education model that can show the rest of the country how to educate students despite the system of white supremacy, but also educate students that can help build a better America in the process.

>> Dr. Ronald Mason, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Always -- Always a pleasure, Dr. Chavis.

♪ ♪ >> Dr. Sonya Horsford, welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you for having me, Dr. Chavis.

It's a pleasure to be here.

>> So tell us first about your background.

You know, I very rarely meet a brother or sister from Las Vegas.

>> I hear that a lot.

I'm from Las Vegas, Nevada.

Born -- Well, not born there, but raised there from a very young age.

And it's funny, because when I was in college, a lot of people asked if I grew up in a hotel.

But there are a lot of homes and communities in Las Vegas.

We actually have the fifth largest school district in the country.

So it's a vibrant and growing place, and it's a place that I call home.

>> And how did you get involved in the education space, particularly from a graduate perspective?

>> Well, I mean, my parents always were strong advocates for education and instill the value of education in myself and my sister.

And in graduate school, I decided that I wanted to, after earning my master's in public administration, that I wanted to focus more specifically on education and education policy.

>> You got your master's in Vegas, also?

>> I did, at University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

And just wanted to learn more about how education worked and how I can make an impact in it.

And so I earned my doctorate of education there at UNLV, and since then, was appointed to a faculty position at George Mason University.

And I'm now at Columbia University, where I work at Teachers College.

>> So, look, this study that has just been completed by Columbia University Teachers College, talk to us about it.

what is the name of the study?

>> So, the study's entitled Black Education in the Wake of COVID-19 and Systemic Racism: Toward a Theory of Change and Action.

And we thought it was important to really reach out directly to members of the black community to understand how the COVID pandemic, the resulting economic recession, and increased racial violence has impacted teaching and learning and the education of children.

And we found that it has had a devastating and disproportionate impact on black education.

And, in fact, black communities and families have suffered more from family members and colleagues who have been impacted by the virus, increased hospitalizations and deaths, increased depression, anxiety, and concern about the safety of their children.

The schools are really ill-equipped to meet the social, emotional, and academic needs of black children.

Another was that teachers and educators are not necessarily prepared to meet the academic needs of students, and that there needs to be more accountability among education leaders and policymakers to make sure that those things are in place for black students, in particular.

>> Are school systems availing themselves of your findings?

>> So, that's the work that we're engaged in now.

As a result of the American Rescue Plan, there's been a historic amount of money that is being invested in local schools, and so, many local school districts have developed plans on how they will use those additional emergency funds.

We have been really trying to push out those findings to communities so that they can advocate for the things that we're recommending, which include changing the curriculum and pedagogy, making sure that teachers are sufficiently prepared to educate and deliver a curriculum that's appropriate for black children, as well, again, as making sure that families and communities are engaged in the decisions that are being made around how that funding is being allocated.

>> Can you talk about the challenges of teachers today, not just black teachers, but in the school system?

The census says the browning of America has accelerated, so a large number of the students there in public schools across the country are, in fact, children of color.

>> We have a crisis.

We really need to transform the way that we design and deliver education.

There is certainly cultural mismatch, which has been, I think, an issue for, well, since actually the establishment of the educational school system because we had a dual system previous to the Brown decision, and after that, we've continued to struggle to make sure that we're meeting the needs of black children.

So I think that's a challenge for us in the U.S. because, still, the large, overwhelming majority of schoolteachers are white women from a middle-class background.

And if we don't prepare the teacher workforce to, again, understand the importance of valuing the knowledge and the culture that students bring to the classroom, we're going to continue to kind of have that conflict where students aren't able to to really excel in the ways that they can with the right supports and with teachers who really understand who they are.

>> What do you recommend to parents and to teachers about how to handle this generation of young people in the public schools, even while COVID is still continuing?

>> Well, I think all of us have to focus on how we can work in collaboration, that we need to increase dialogue, that we have to have a better understanding of what each stakeholder and community member needs.

So increasing -- well, building trust between students and teachers and community members is going to be critically important.

It's one of the things that we highlight in the report because this moment has really worsened trust and increased -- and increased mistrust between schools and communities.

So we think it's important to really build those connections.

And I think that dialogue is a really important way to do that.

Unfortunately, you know, the current climate doesn't contribute to that, but we think that this report hopefully could be an entry point to have conversations about what we would like to see happen in schools, right?

>> The issue of trust, of course, is very important.

And as you are aware, in the African-American community in particular, there's a distrust of the health information.

How can we overcome that and have people to trust science and to value even the important results that you found in your recent study?

>> Well, we have to change science.

I think we have to change what counts as evidence.

And, you know, it is a justified mistrust in the fact that a lot of the research and evidence that's been generated, at least in the case of education, has been very narrow, and it's been through one particular lens.

So I think the more that we have scholars, researchers, educators who share the perspective of the communities that we're serving, we can bridge and build more trust so that we can all work together across research, policy, practice, and community to kind of build the type of schools and communities that we need.

So I think that by diversifying the academy, seeing increase diversity among those who are setting policy is really going to create an exciting opportunity for us to work together in ways that maybe we couldn't before.

>> As you look around the United States, are you hopeful, or do you think we probably haven't sounded the alarm bells enough about the crisis of black education?

>> I'm hopeful.

I'm a mother of three, so I have to be hopeful.

You know, I feel like we have a responsibility to the younger generations and so we can't give up.

These problems have been with us and they may continue, but I think we all have a role to play.

And so I'm going to do my part wherever I can to make sure that people are aware of the situation, but not to dwell there, not to dwell on the problems, but again, to find the ways and conduct research that helps explain the how -- how do you organize and mobilize communities?

How do you influence the school board and the school district to make sure that they're representing students who have been underserved?

How do you engage in the political process to make sure that you're building community power and making sure that future generations have access to the type of education that has not been provided to this point?

>> Earlier, you mentioned the importance of teachers being adequately compensated, teachers being adequately valued, the teaching profession.

Do you see the pendulum swinging in the right direction in the United States currently?

>> I do not.

I mean, I think the pandemic initially -- right?

-- when we were in lockdown and schools were really serving as the hubs of community again because we were trying to find ways to identify students, find out where they were, feed them, and provide those other supports, you know, that was a moment, I think where we remember that schools are not just about testing, but they actually are the heartbeat of a community.

But, you know, we have a short memory in this country, and so now I think there's more blaming of teachers, and I hope that we can find ways to make the profession one that is something that young people do want to go into.

And so I think that has been a challenge in our community, because as you've had more opportunities to engage in other professions, we have had a decline in the number of individuals who go into teaching.

And so I see that as being really critical, and having a strong teaching corps of young people who care about children, who understand who they are and want to be in service in educating others and that that can really help us turn this whole thing around.

>> Let me ask you -- what led a prestigious university like Columbia University, Teachers College, to embark upon such a, I would say, radical study?

>> I mean, it was something that I felt needed to happen.

And so we just started building this collective, bringing together faculty and a growing number of students.

Again, we're really interested in learning more about black education specifically and wanting to create a space where we could share ideas, and we can determine how we can change -- change the research evidence base that we're using to shape policy.

And so that's what this first report was.

It was our first attempt to again ask the types of research questions that we wanted to ask.

Use the methods that we thought were most appropriate and culturally sensitive for the people that we wanted to speak with, and so that's what we've done.

And it's the beginning of what I hope will be a really impactful research agenda.

>> Do you think other teachers colleges around the United States will follow the lead of Columbia University, Teachers College, on this subject matter?

>> I would love for them to do that, and I also think there's a great opportunity.

We certainly want to work with our HBCU -- our colleagues in the HBCUs and schools of education to, again, build out a network.

And we know that there's a lot that we can learn from HBCUs, but I hope that all institutions will see the value of centering the black experience because when we do that, we help everyone.

It's not just singling out the black community, but it's understanding that when you can meet the needs of the black community, you will help everyone, and we'll help lift up the entire country.

>> Dr. Sonya Horsford, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you for having me, Dr. Chavis.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪