♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> WE HAVE TO STAND WITH UKRAINE BECAUSE UKRAINE IS ALSO DEFENDING OUR PEACE, OUR LIBERTY.

>> RUSSIA POUNDS THE BLACK SEAPORT OF ODESA YET AGAIN.

I ASK GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER ANNALENA BAERBOCK IF UKRAINE CAN STILL COUNT ON SUPPORT FROM THE WEST.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, HOW NOT TO BE A POLITICIAN.

FORMER TORY MINISTER AND MP RORY STEWART ON WHAT'S WRONG WITH TODAY'S ELECTED OFFICIALS.

>>> PLUS -- >> WHAT WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT CLEAR VIEW AI, IT WASN'T THAT THEY MADE A TECHNOLOGICAL BREAKTHROUGH, IT WAS AN ETHICAL ONE THAT THEY WERE WILLING TO DO WHAT OTHER COMPANIES HADN'T BEEN WILLING TO DO.

>> A RADICAL EROSION OF PRIVACY, JOURNALIST KASHMIR HILL TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE DARK SIDE OF FACIAL RECOGNITION.

"AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J. BLECHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR BPS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, A PATHETIC ATTEMPT AT RETALIATION, THAT IS HOW UKRAINE'S NEW DEFENSE MINISTER DESCRIBED THE KREMLIN'S OVERNIGHT ATTACK ON THE BLACK SEA CITY OF ODESA.

TWO PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND THE SEA POERT, A HOTEL AND GRAIN INFRASTRUCTURE WERE DAMAGED.

KYIV CLAIMS MOSCOW WAS RESPONDING TO A ATTACK ON RUSSIA'S BLACK FLEET HEADQUARTERS ON FRIDAY THAT KILLED A COMMANDER.

WE CANNOT INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY HIS DEATH.

WHILE WE WERE AT THE U.N.

SUMMIT IN NEW YORK, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL TOLD ME THAT WE'RE IN FOR A LONG WAR.

AS A REMINDER, BACK AT THE START, ONE COUNTRY GERMANY DEFENSE POLICY AROUND AND VOWED TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH MILITARY HELP FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

IN NEW YORK, I ASKED THE GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER ANNALENA BAERBOCK ABOUT THE URGENCY THEN AND A GENERAL SENSE OF ANXIETY SETTLING IN NOW.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME START BY ASKING YOU THIS WEEK SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ALL ABOUT UKRAINE AND THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY.

THERE WAS A SECURITY COUNCIL MEETING.

I KNOW ZELENSKYY PRETTY MUCH SAID COME ON, U.N., STEP UP.

GIVE US MORE SUPPORT.

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU LIVE FOR MORE THAN ONE AND A HALF YEAR IN THIS BRUTAL WAR, SEE YOUR PEOPLE DYING EVERY DAY, CHILDREN BEING KIDNAPPED OUT OF SCHOOLS, OUT OF PARENTS' HOMES, YOU CANNOT WAIT ANY DAY LONGER.

SO I TOTALLY NOT ONLY UNDERSTAND BUT I FEEL THE NEED FROM THE UKRAINIAN FROM THE PRESIDENT FOR A WAKE-UP CALL.

HOWEVER, MY FEELING HERE AT THE WAR OF AGGRESSION WHEN MANY COUNTRIES SAID, WELL, WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW.

MAYBE IT WAS ALSO A BIT UKRAINE'S FAULT OR NATO'S FAULT, BUT THIS HAS DEFINITELY CHANGED, SO I FEEL WAY MORE SUPPORT BECAUSE MANY, MANY COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD SEE THIS IS NOT ONLY ABOUT UKRAINE.

THIS IS NOT ONLY ABOUT PEACE IN EUROPE.

IT'S ABOUT OUR CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

IF WE ALLOW ONE DICTATOR TO OVERRULE ALL OUR PEACEFUL RIGHTS, THIS WILL BE THE END OF PEACEFUL COOPERATION IN THE WORLD.

>> WHAT ABOUT DOMESTIC FATIGUE, YOUR OWN COUNTRY UNFORTUNATELY HAS THE WORST PERFORMING ECONOMY OF THE MAJOR DEVELOPED COUNTRIES.

IS THERE FATIGUE IN YOUR COUNTRY?

>> NO.

I MEAN, WE ARE A DEMOCRACY, SO EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OWN VIEWS ON THINGS IN THE WORLD, BUT FROM THE BEGINNING, VAST MAJORITY OF GERMANS, OF EUROPEANS TOTALLY UNDERSTOOD THIS COULD BE US.

I MEAN, KYIV THREE HOURS BY PLANE FROM BERLIN.

YEAH, THIS IS A EUROPEAN CITY, SO PEOPLE, THE VAST MAJORITY KNOWS WE HAVE TO STAND WITH UKRAINE BECAUSE UKRAINE IS ALSO DEFENDING OUR PEACE, OUR LIBERTY.

HOWEVER, OBVIOUSLY YOU MENTIONED THE ECONOMIC DATA.

WE SEE NOT ONLY INFLATION WORLDWIDE, WE ARE HIT HARD ALSO IN EUROPE WITH REGARD TO OUR ECONOMY, ESPECIALLY GERMANY.

WE WERE DEPENDING ON RUSSIA, OIL AND GAS.

OBVIOUSLY IT HAS ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES, BUT THIS IS NOW UP TO POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.

IN THESE KIND OF TIMES, YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, THE PEACE, BUT YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEN PEOPLE WHY WE NEED TO DO IT, AND YOU HAVE TO WORK ALSO THEN WITH OTHERS, SOCIAL PROGRAMS TO COUNTER THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS FOR THE NORMAL PEOPLE, THE NORMAL FAMILY, AND THIS IS WHAT WE TRY TO DO.

>> SO THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE YOUR COUNTRY DEFINITELY TURNED ON A DIME, SO TO SPEAK, CHANGED ITS POST-WAR MOSTLY PASSIVIST POLICY, HAS BEEN THE SECOND BIGGEST SUPPLIER OF WEAPONS TO UKRAINE AFTER THE UNITED STATES.

ALL THE DOMESTIC CHALLENGES YOU MENTIONED SEEMS TO HAVE PUSH ADD RESURGENCE IN THE AFD AND THE FAR RIGHT, AND THEY WILL HAVE AN INFLUENCE, I PRESUME, THE STRONGER THEY GET.

HOW WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT THE AFD AGAIN SURGING?

>> OBVIOUSLY WE ARE HAVING A HEAVY DISCUSSION LIKE IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT WE ARE TOTALLY COMMITTED FOR THE FURTHER SUPPORT.

WE UNDERLINED THAT WE PROVIDE 2% OF THE GDP FOR OUR OWN DEFENSE CAPABILITIES.

WE ARE THE SECOND BIGGEST DONOR TO UKRAINE AFTER THE U.S., ALSO MILITARY-WISE, AND BESIDES THAT, WE HAD TO TAKE SOME HARD DECISION IN OUR BUDGET.

WE TRY TO COUNTER THESE ECONOMIC EFFECTS, FOR EXAMPLE, BY ENERGY SUPPORT PACKAGES FOR PEOPLE, AND THEN YOU WERE MENTIONING THE FAR RIGHT.

OBVIOUSLY WE SEE THE CHALLENGES IN THIS GLOBALIZED WORLD AFTER COVID.

NOW WITH THIS BRUTAL WAR WHERE PEOPLE FEEL INSECURE, AND THEN WE HAVE ALSO THE BIG MIGRATION ISSUES, SO YES, THIS IS ALSO ABOUT STRENGTHENING INTERNAL DEMOCRACIES, AND AGAIN, IT'S UP TO DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP TO STAND UP FOR YOUR VALUES, BUT ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE IN THESE TIMES ARE REALLY WORRIED.

>> TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP, LAST WEEK YOU CALLED PRESIDENT XI OF CHINA A DICTATOR.

YOU SAID IF PUTIN WERE TO WIN THIS WAR, WHAT SIGN WOULD THAT BE FOR OTHER DICTATORS IN THE WORLD LIKE XI, LIKE THE CHINESE PRESIDENT?

>> WELL, I MEAN, EVERYBODY CAN DRAW THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS ABOUT A SYSTEM, ONE PARTY SYSTEM, A COMMUNIST PARTY WITH SEVERE BREACHES OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND MANY COUNTRIES IN THE INDO-PACIFIC WHO ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THREATS THEY ARE HEARING FROM CHINA, THIS NEW CHINESE MAP, BUT BEING TOUGH ON LANGUAGE IS NOT LIKE A LISTEN BUT FOR ME IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERLINE WORLDWIDE THAT THIS QUESTION OF THE WAR OF AGGRESSION IN RUSSIA, THIS IS NOT ONLY A EUROPEAN QUESTION.

WE HEAR SO MANY VOICES HERE FROM AFRICAN COUNTRIES, LATIN AMERICAN, SO WHAT IS THE SECURITY COUNCIL, ONLY A FEW POWERFUL COUNTRIES.

SO I THINK EVERYTHING IS INTERCONNECTED AND I WANTED TO MAKE CLEAR THAT THIS IS AN ISSUE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

>> AND YOU'VE ACTUALLY BEEN CLEAR ON THIS FROM THE MOMENT YOU RAN FOR OFFICE AND FROM THE MOMENT YOU BECAME FOREIGN MINISTER, AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK OF THE FACT THAT OF THE PERMANENT FIVE SECURITY COUNCIL MEMBERS, NEITHER XI NOR PUTIN, IN FACT, NOR SUNAK NOR MACRON WERE THERE.

JUST PRESIDENT BIDEN.

IS THAT A COINCIDENCE?

OR IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT THE U.S. SECRETARY GENERAL SAID TO ME, ESSENTIALLY THE IMPOTENCE TO SOLVE THESE KINDS OF PROBLEMS IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL?

>> WELL, NOT FOR THIS PRESIDENT.

I COME BACK TO THAT ONE IN A MINUTE, BUT I WOULD SAY THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY SHOWS THAT OBVIOUSLY THE WORLD HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST DECADES, WHICH IS NORMAL IN LIFE.

BUT THE INSTITUTIONS OF THE U.N. HAVEN'T CHANGED, AND THEREFORE, WE NEED A TOTAL MODERNIZATION, AND OBVIOUSLY ALSO THE SECURITY COUNCIL, EVEN BEFORE THE RUSSIAN WAR OF AGGRESSION, I MEAN, DIDN'T FUNCTION IN THIS WORLD.

THERE ARE MANY REGIONS OF THE WORLD LIKE AFRICA, LIKE LATIN AMERICA NOT EVEN REPRESENTED IN THIS HIGHEST COUNCIL.

AND I THINK THE GOOD THING IS ALL, YOU KNOW, THIS WORRYING TRENDS WE ARE SEEING IS THE U.N.

DIDN'T COLLAPSE.

WE AS THE UNITED NATIONS, COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD, TOOK UP OUR RESPONSIBILITY IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY SHOWING THAT IF THE SECURITY COUNCIL IS BLOCKED, THERE CAN BE INTERNATIONAL, AND WE KEEP UP THIS EFFORT AND I'M HERE ALSO FOR PROPOSING DIFFERENT MODERNIZATION PROCESSES.

NEXT YEAR WE DO HAVE THE BIG SUMMIT OF THE FUTURE, GERMANY IS ALSO FACILITATING IT, AND YES, WE DO NEED A REFORM, NOT ONLY OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL BUT ALSO OF THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

MANY COUNTRIES WEREN'T EVEN PRESENT WHEN WE STARTED WITH THE IMF OR THE WORLD BANK.

SO THEY ARE NOT REFLECTED IN THESE SO IMPORTANT BODIES OF TODAY, SO OBVIOUSLY ALSO FOR THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

WE NEED NEW SETUP.

HOWEVER -- AND I'M TRYING NOT TO BE TOO LONG -- SOME TRY TO FILL THIS GAP WHEN THE PAST MAYBE ALSO INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRIES WEREN'T HONEST ENOUGH TO REFLECT CRITICALLY AND TRY TO FILL THE GAP LIKE CHINA, PRETENDING WE DO NOT HAVE INTERNATIONAL RULES.

WHEN I WAS IN CHINA, I HEARD AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE, WE DO NOT HAVE REGULATIONS OR CONVENTIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS, AND WHOA, THERE IS A UNIVERSAL DECLARATION.

EVEN THE MODERNIZATION IS SO IMPORTANT IN ORDER TO SAVE OUR INTERNATIONAL ORDER, THE CHARTER, BUT WE HAVE TO MODERNIZE IT BECAUSE IF WE ARE NOT DOING IT, OTHERS TRY TO WIPE AWAY EVERYTHING WHICH HOLDS THE WORLD TOGETHER.

>> YOU ARE A VERY SENIOR CLIMATE ACTIVIST.

YOU'RE A GREEN PARTY MEMBER, AND YOU HAVE MADE CLIMATE FRONT AND CENTER OF A LOT OF YOUR POLICY AND YOUR POLITICS.

THE CLIMATE WEEK SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN OVERSHADOWED BY EVERYTHING ELSE.

I WONDER HOW MUCH REALIST PROGRESS YOU BELIEVE HAS BEEN MADE HERE OR IN GENERAL?

YOU KNOW, JOHN KERRY COMPLAINED LAST TIME HE WAS IN CHINA THAT THERE WASN'T ENOUGH VOCALIZED SUPPORT FOR WHAT THEIR COMMITMENTS ARE.

WE SAW RISHI SUNAK PULL BACK FROM NET ZERO COMMITMENTS IN TERMS OF ALL THE ISSUES THEY WERE TRYING TO DO.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS HAPPENING ON THAT GLOBAL EXISTENTIAL FRONT?

>> OBVIOUSLY WITH REGARD TO THE DEVASTATING SITUATION, I MEAN, WE SAW THE HORRIBLE CLIMATE EFFECTS AROUND THE WORLD, FIRE, FLOODS, PEOPLE DYING IN THE THOUSANDS.

WE DO NOT DO ENOUGH, OBVIOUSLY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED I'M A GREEN POLITICIAN, SOMETIMES I'M WONDERING BECAUSE I WAS AT THE CLIMATE CONFERENCE IN 2015 SPEAKING THERE AS A GREEN POLITICIAN.

PEOPLE WERE LAUGHING AT THESE KIND OF PROPOSALS SAYING THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE IN A WORD, IN MY OWN COUNTRY WE DIDN'T EVEN MENTION COLD L FACE OUT HERE.

NOW WE ARE NOT AS FAST AS WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN, BUT IT'S LIKE TEN YEARS LATER, IT IS KIND OF A NORMAL THING TO PHASE OUT COAL, AND SIMILAR WAS THE ENVIRONMENTALS IN TIME SAYING WELL, THE FUTURE TECHNOLOGY, THE FUTURE INDUSTRIAL COUNTRIES HAVE TO BE CARBON NEUTRAL.

PEOPLE, AGAIN WERE LAUGHING ABOUT THESE KIND OF THINGS, AND NOW WE SEE ELECTRIC CARS, AND YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT CHINA.

WE HAD THE AUTOMOTIVE FAIR IN MUNICH JUST THE OTHER WEEK, SO WE SEE FROM CHINA ONE OF THE MOST ADVANCED ELECTRIC CARS.

SO BECAUSE OF THIS PUSH FROM ECONOMY, THIS IS ALSO A CHANCE.

AND NOW WE HAVE TO COMBINE THE POSSIBILITIES, WHICH ARE ALL THERE IN THE ECONOMY IN THE INDUSTRY TO MAKE CARBON NEUTRAL WORLD, TOGETHER WITH POLITICAL DECISIONS WHICH ARE QUICK ENOUGH, AND AT THIS WEEK WE DIDN'T DELIVER, BUT WE DO HAVE COP, THE CLIMATE CONFERENCE AT THE END OF THE YEAR IN A GULF COUNTRY, AND THERE WE HAVE TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR.

>> SO LET ME GET YOUR REACTION TO THAT BECAUSE I HAD AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT, VERY PROMINENT GLOBAL CLIMATE ACTIVIST.

I MEAN, HE IS LITERALLY FIT TO BE TIED.

HE SAYS THE IDEA THAT WE CAN RELY ON FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES OR COUNTRIES TO BE THE POLICEMEN AND WOMEN OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS IS JUST DREAMOVISION.

THEY HAVE NO INCENTIVE, NO DESIRE, AND THEY JUST DON'T DO IT.

SO WHAT IS COP-28 GOING TO BE?

>> WELL, BUT I'M AN ACTIVE POLITICIAN, AND HE'S NOT AN ACTIVE POLITICIAN.

SOMETIMES THIS CHANGES THE VIEW SO I ALWAYS SEE THE GLASS OF HALF FULL BECAUSE OTHERWISE I THINK YOU CANNOT DO YOUR JOB PROPERLY.

SO I WOULD SAY THIS BLACK AND WHITE IS JUST NOT TRUE.

I MEAN, THEIR COUNTRY'S ALSO LIKE MINE.

WE DECIDED AS A NEW GOVERNMENT TO TOTALLY PHASE OUT OF COAL.

THIS WAS ONE OF OUR CORE ENERGY SOURCES.

IT WAS IN THE BRUTAL WAR OF RUSSIA.

TOTALLY WAS OUR DEPENDENCY ON GAS.

OBVIOUSLY WE NEEDED DIFFERENT GAS SOURCES FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT WE SAID THAT BY THE MIDST OF 2040, ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR ENERGY IN GERMANY LOSES ITS PERMISSIONS, SO YOU CANNOT USE THE INFRASTRUCTURE ANYMORE IF IT'S NOT CARBON NEUTRAL.

SO THERE ARE THESE COUNTRIES, NOT ONLY MINE AND WE COULD DO BETTER AS WELL, BUT WE HAVE TO JOIN FORCES, AND THIS IS WHAT I DID HERE, BRING TOGETHER THOSE COUNTRIES, NO MATTER IF THEY ARE ALL EUROPEANS OR IF THEY ARE ALL INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRIES.

BRING TOGETHER SMALL ISLAND STATES.

INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRIES WHO ARE READY TO WALK THE CLIMATE PATH.

COUNTRIES FROM AFRICA, LIKE KENYA.

KENYA IS A FRONT RUNNER IN THESE.

THEY ARE GOING CARBON NEUTRAL IN THE NEXT YEAR TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE MODELS.

THEY ARE COUNTRIES, AND WE CANNOT WAIT FOR THE LAST IN LINE ANY LONGER AND THIS IS A CHANGE, AND I WOULD AGREE, WE CANNOT WAIT FOR THE LAST IN LINE, SO WE HAVE TO COMBINE WITH THOSE WHO REALLY WANT TO DO SOMETHING.

>> AND ABOUT UKRAINE, AGAIN, WE KNOW THAT GERMANY HAS PROVIDED A LOT OF WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION.

THERE'S ALSO BEEN SOME COMPLAINTS.

THEY STILL WANT THE CRUISE MISSILE VERSION.

ARE THEY GOING TO GET IT?

THAT'S ONE QUESTION.

THE OTHER IS ARE YOU WORRIED THAT SEVERAL DELIVEIES OF THE LEOPARDS HAVE BEEN FAULTY AND DETECTIVE AND THE UKRAINIANS ARE REFUSING THEM, AT LEAST THE LATEST ONE, AND THEY'RE GETTING THEM TOO SLOW THANKS TO THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

>> THANKS FOR THE COMBINATION T. DOESN'T HELP TO PROMISE AND THEN YOU CANNOT DELIVER OR TO DELIVER THINGS WHICH DO NOT WORK.

AND BECAUSE THANK GOD WE WEREN'T CONFRONTED WITH THE BRUTAL WAR IN EUROPE LATELY, SOME OF OUR SYSTEMS WERE REALLY OLD FASHIONED, YEAH.

SO BECAUSE WE KNOW AND WE SAID IT IN THE BEGINNING, SOME ARE NOT REALLY FUNCTIONING, WHEN WE DELIVER, IT DOES HAVE TO WORK IN THE FIELD, AND THIS IS WHY IT WAS -- THIS IS THE EXPLANATION WHY NOW FOR THE -- I CANNOT SAY WE WILL DELIVER TAROS, THIS IS SO SOPHISTICATED.

IT'S THE NEW THING WE ARE HAVING SO WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR ON EVERY DETAIL, HOW DOES IT WORK, WHO CAN ACTUALLY OPERATE WITH THAT ONE, AND YES, IT TAKES SOME TIME.

I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TIME IN UKRAINE, BUT WHEN WE DELIVERED, IT HAS TO WORK AND WE SAW IT, FOR EXAMPLE, ALSO WITH HOWITZERS WE DELIVERED, AND THEN YOU HAVE THE THAT ONE.

IT DOESN'T WORK THEN AS WELL.

SO IT HAS TO COME ALL TOGETHER, AND THAT IS WHY ALSO THE COOPERATION WITH OTHERS.

I'M ALWAYS ASKED SO WHY DO YOU WAIT OR DISCUSS FIRST WITH THE AMERICANS OR OTHERS?

BECAUSE THIS HAS TO GO COMBINE, YEAH, AND THIS IS WHY ALSO THE TALKS FROM TODAY IN WASHINGTON BETWEEN BIDEN AND ZELENSKYY ARE REALLY IMPORTANT.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, YOU HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE NEED TO FOCUS ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS, CHILDREN'S RIGHTS, A FEMINIST FOREIGN POLICY.

WE SEE ALL OVER THE WORLD, IRAN, AFGHANISTAN, ALL OVER THE WORLD WHERE WOMEN BEAR THE BRUNT OF SO MUCH BAD GOVERNANCE.

YOU MENTIONED THE CHILDREN BEING KIDNAPPED FROM RUSSIA.

HOW ARE YOU DOING IN MAKING THAT A TIPPING POINT IN FOREIGN POLICY?

>> I'VE BEEN TO THE CONTACT LINE BETWEEN EASTERN UKRAINE AND UKRAINE TERRITORY BEFORE THE OUTBREAK OF THE TOTALLY INVASION, AND A WOMAN THERE SUFFERING FOR YEARS ALREADY AFTER 2014 UNDER THE THESE OCCUPATION TOLD ME, IF WOMEN ARE AND THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING WHICH FOLLOWS ME THROUGHOUT MY TIME NOW AS A FOREIGN MINISTER.

YOU SEE THAT EVERYWHERE.

YOU SEE IT IN ETHIOPIA.

THERE WAS A CONFLICT IN TIGRAY, IF THERE'S SEXUAL VIOLENCE, THIS DEVASTATES NOT ONLY FAMILY, VILLAGES.

YES, WE TOOK A NEW APPROACH OF SAYING WOMEN RIGHTS ARE HARD POLITICS, IT'S SECURITY POLITICS, YEAH.

SO THIS IS ONE PART OF IT, AND THE OTHER DIMENSION IS I ALWAYS SAY WE HAVE TO GIVE THE WAR A HUMAN FACE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT TANKS, AMMUNITION, NUMBERS ONLY.

IF PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND, THIS COULD BE ME AS A MOTHER, MY CHILD BEING KIDNAPPED, YEAH, YOU DO DIFFERENT POLITICS, AND ONE IMPORTANT PART IS WHY I'M TALKING ALL THE TIME ABOUT CHILDREN IS IT'S AROUND 20,000 FIGURES, NOBODY KNOWS, FOR EXAMPLE IN SOUTH AFRICA, IN THE BEGINNING THEY SAY WE DON'T KNOW THE SHOOTING.

I TRIED TO EXPLAIN TO THEM.

THERE'S AN AGGRESSOR AND A VICTIM COUNTRY, UKRAINE.

BUT IF UKRAINE STOPS DEFENDING ITSELF, ALWAYS VILLAGES WILL BE GONE.

IT DIDN'T REALLY CONVINCE THEM.

THEN I TOLD THEM ABOUT THE CHILDREN, IMAGINE THERE ARE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS COMING TO THE SCHOOL OF YOUR GIRLS TELLING THEM WE GO ON HOLIDAYS AND YOU NEVER SEE THEM AGAIN.

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANY WAR WITH NATO, RUSSIA, WITH UKRAINE, THIS IS THE MOST INHUMAN THING YOU CAN THINK OF.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT.

WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT IT.

WE ONLY TALKED ABOUT SELF-DEFENSE AND NOT THE HUMAN FACES.

THIS HAS CHANGED SOMETHING.

SO SOUTH AFRICA, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S NOW CALLING ON PUTIN TO SAY, FIRST THEY'RE FOR PEACE, WOULD BE TO BRING BACK THESE CHILDREN, AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO SPREAD ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND THIS WOULD BE ALSO MY CALL TO EVERYBODY, ACTUALLY, TO SPEAK ABOUT THESE INNOCENT CHILDREN.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, ANNALENA BAERBOCK, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS SO MUCH.

>>> AND JUST A NOTE, TODAY KYIV THE FIRST M-1 ABRAMS TANKS HAVE ARRIVED IN UKRAINE.

>>> NEXT, HERE IN BRITAIN, PRIME MINISTER RISHI SUNAK IS IN A LOT OF HOT WATER AFTER HE ANNOUNCED ON WORLD CLIMATE WEEK OF THE U.N. NO LESS, A MAJOR ROLLBACK OF NET ZERO POLICIES.

AN EXCLUSIVE POLL FOR THE GUARDIAN NEWSPAPERS FOUND THAT NOW ONLY 22% OF PEOPLE TRUST THE PRIME MINISTER TO TACKLE THE CLIMATE CRISIS AFTER THAT POLICY ROLLBACK.

MY NEXT GUESS, A FORMER TORY MIN MINISTER AND MP IS NOT PULLING ANY PUNCHES.

RORY STEWART ASKS WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOUR POLITICAL PARTY LOSES ITS MIND?

NO DOUBT MANY REPUBLICANS IN AMERICA CAN RELATE WHEN IT COMES TO THE MAGA WING OF THEIR PARTY.

HOW NOT TO BE A POLITICIAN IS STEWART'S NEW MEMOIR.

HE ALSO CO-HOSTS A POPULAR PODCAST CALLED "THE REST IS POLITICS," AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> LOTS OF DETAILS TO GET INTO REGARDING CLIMATE AND RISHI AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

LET'S TALK ABOUT POPULISM.

I SPOKE WITH THE GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER, AND SHE WAS, YOU KNOW, CONCERNED ABOUT SOME OF THE NUMBERS OF THE AFD GROWING IN GERMANY, AND WE CAN SEE THIS HAPPENING, AND BASICALLY, TODAY IS VERY MUCH TRUMP IS A POPULIST POLITICIAN.

>> SURE.

AND THE TORY PARTY HAS BECOME VERY POPULIST NATIONALIST.

WHERE DOES ONE GO FROM HERE?

>> IT'S A TERRIFYING PHENOMENON.

AS YOU SAY, IT'S GLOBAL, SO WE CAN SEE NARENDRA MODI IN INDIA, WE CAN SEE THESE FAR INDIA FASCIST PARTIES GETTING STRONGER AND STRONGER IN EUROPE.

THE UP TO ALMOST A QUARTER OF VOTES IN GERMAN.

YOU CAN SEE IT IN SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

WE HAD OUR OWN VERSION OF DONALD TRUMP IN BORIS JOHNSON HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

EVEN THOUGH AT THE MOMENT BRITISH POLITICS SOMETIMES FEELS LIKE IT'S MOVING BACK A LITTLE BIT TOWARDS MODERATE GROUND, THE ROOTS OF IT ARE STILL THERE.

WHAT BROKE IT, 2008 FINANCIAL CRISIS, SOCIAL MEDIA, THE INABILITY OF THE CENTER TO PROVIDE A REAL VISION.

I THINK IT IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM OF OUR AGE.

IT WILL DEFINE THE U.S. ELECTION AND IT WILL DEFINE THE WORLD.

>> AND THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ELECTION HERE IN THE UK.

BEFORE I GET TO THAT, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR BOOK "HOW NOT TO BE A POLITICIAN."

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU SAYING, THAT PEOPLE SHOULDN'T GO INTO POLITICS OR WHAT?

>> I'M SAYING IT'S A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE PROFESSION.

I THINK WE UNDERESTIMATE THE DAMAGE IT DOES TO YOUR MIND, BODY, AND SOUL.

I DO SLIGHTLY FEEL THIS WITH COLLEAGUES OF MINE IN THE UNITED STATES, CONGRESS PEOPLE, SENATORS.

THERE ARE SOME WONDERFUL PEOPLE, I'VE GOT A FRIEND CALLED ROSA DELAURA IN CONNECTICUT WHO'S A REAL PERSON, BUT SO MANY OF US BECOME SORT OF ROBOTS.

WE CEASE TO BECOME PRIVATE PEOPLE.

WE BECOME SLOGAN SPOUTING MACHINES.

CAMPAIGNING, FUND-RAISING TAKES OVER EVERYTHING.

AND THERE'S NO REAL ROOM FOR POLICY.

THERE'S NO ROOM FOR REFLECTION, AND ABOVE ALL, MY POINT IS THERE'S NO ROOM FOR SERIOUSNESS .

POLITICS IS NOT SERIOUS ENOUGH.

>> I WANT YOU TO READ SOMETHING WE'VE CHOSEN A PACKAGE FROM OUR READING, WHICH I'D LIKE YOU TO READ NOW FROM YOUR OWN BOOK.

>> SURE, WELL, THANK YOU.

SO MANY OF THE POLITICAL DECISIONS WHICH I HAD WITNESSED WERE RUSHED, FLAKY, AND POORLY CONSIDERED.

THE LACK OF MATURE JUDGMENT WAS PALPABLE, THE CONSEQUENCES FREQUENTLY CATASTROPHIC, AND YET, WE HAD CONTINUED TO WIN ELECTIONS.

POLITICS DOMINATED THE NEWS, BUT IT WAS TREATED AS A HORSE RACE WHERE ALL THAT MATTERED WAS POSITION.

AND TO INQUIRE AFTER THE CHARACTER OR BELIEFS OF A POLITICIAN WAS CONSIDERED AS ABSURD AS TO ASK THE SAME OF A HORSE.

BUT TO PUT AN EGOTISTICAL LIKE BORIS JOHNSON INTO THE HEART OF A SYSTEM THAT WAS ALREADY LOSING ITS DIGNITY, RESTRAINT AND SERIOUSNESS WAS TO INVITE CATASTROPHE.

>> SO I THINK FOR YOU -- I MEAN, THAT'S PRETTY BLUNT -- I THINK FOR YOU PEOPLE -- PEOPLE ON YOUR SIDE POINT TO BREXIT AS THE HEIGHT OF THE CATASTROPHE.

HOW DO YOU THINK BRITAIN CAN ROLL BACK FROM THAT?

WE DON'T SEE IT HAPPENING WITH THIS GOVERNMENT, ALTHOUGH RISHI SUNAK HAS TRIED TO STABILIZE.

HE'S TALKED NICELY TO THE EUROPEANS.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT LESS CONFRONTATIONAL.

BUT EVEN THE LABOR LEADER, THE LABOR PARTY, WHICH IS MOVING BACK TO A TONY BLAIR CENTRIST LABOR PARTY, MAIN OPPOSITION PARTY HERE, DOESN'T WANT TO TACKLE THE IDEA OF BREXIT AND WHAT IT'S MEANT TO POLITICS AND WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

>> THIS IS CLASSIC EXAMPLE.

SO WE'VE GOT THIS PROBLEM WITH BREXIT.

WE'VE GOT THIS PROBLEM WITH CLIMATE.

WE'VE GOT THIS PROBLEM WITH AI.

THESE PARTIES ESSENTIALLY ARE CHASING SHORT-TERM OPINION POLLS IN MARGINAL SEATS.

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT THIS BREXIT DEAL IS NO GOOD.

WE NEED SOMETHING AT LEAST MUCH MORE LIKE A CUSTOMS UNION, WHICH WOULD BE BETTER FOR NORTHERN IRELAND SECURITY, BETTER FOR BRITISH TRADE.

AND TRAGICALLY, EVEN THE LABOR LEADER, WHO WAS FLIRTING WITH A SECOND REFERENDUM IS NOW NO LONGER EVEN PREPARED TO SAY HE CRIMINAL JUSTICE POLICY.

OUR PRISONS ARE DISGUSTINGLY OVERCROWDED.

WE'VE GOT VIOLENCE, FILTH, ESCAPES, AND AGAIN, NEITHER OF THESE POLITICS LEADERS IS PREPARED TO REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATION.

SO THIS MAKES ME VERY, VERY WORRIED.

WE CAN SEE IT WITH RISHI SUNAK BECAUSE HE'S ROWING BACK ON CLIMATE CHANGE PROMISES, BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THESE ARE THE LEADERS WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GUIDING US IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND THINKING THROUGH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND WHAT NOW POLITICIAN'S ABOUT, IT'S LIKE A DOCTOR TAKING YOU INTO A HOSPITAL TRYING TO DESCRIBE WHAT IT'S REALLY LIKE, THE MADNESS OF THE WHOLE SITUATION.

I HOPE IT'S FUNNY.

I HOPE IT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE WANT TO READ, BUT ABOVE ALL I WANT PEOPLE TO REALIZE WHAT A MESS WE'RE IN.

>> THE REVIEWS SAY IT'S HIGHLY READABLE AND AMUSING FOR SURE.

BUT IT'S REALLY -- IT'S SAD THAT IT'S AMUSING, IT REALLY DOES TALK -- FOR INSTANCE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CATASTROPHIC FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE BREXIT DEAL.

IT WAS JUST BREXIT AND ALMOST OFF A CLIFF.

YOU TRIED TO VOTE AGAINST THAT, RIGHT?

YOU AND MANY OTHERS WHEN YOU WERE MINISTER IN THERESA MAY'S GOVERNMENT.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU DARED TO GO AGAINST THE BREXIT LEADERSHIP OF THE PARTY, BORIS JOHNSON AND CO.?

>> THAT WAS AN AMAZING MOMENT IN MY CAREER.

SO I AND SOME OTHER VERY SENIOR PEOPLE SAID WE WOULD NOT ACCEPT A NO-DEAL BREXIT, AND BORIS JOHNSON RESPONDED BY THROWING US OUT OF THE PARTY AND ESSENTIALLY OUT OF PARLIAMENT.

IT'S SOMETHING AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO, AND IT'S SOMETHING NO PREVIOUS BRITISH PRIME MINISTER HAD EVER TRIED TO DO.

VERY QUICKLY THEY GO AFTER THE CONSTITUTION.

BRITAIN'S GOT AN UNWRITTEN CONSTITUTION, BUT YOU CAN SEE IT IN ISRAEL TOO.

IT'S VERY QUICK THAT THESE RIGHT WING POPULIST PARTIES GO AFTER THE CONSTITUTION, AND THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM BECAUSE RIGHT WING PARTIES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE CONSERVATIVES, SMALL C'S, THEY WERE MEANT TO STAND UP FOR CONSTITUTIONS.

WE ARE NOW IN A VERY UNSTABLE WORLD, AND IT'S PUSHING THE LEFT INTO BECOMING DEFENDERS OF THE CONSTITUTION, AS THE RIGHT BECOMES LESS AND LESS CONSERVATIVE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU TO WEIGH IN ON WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REVIEWING OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS SINCE HE ANNOUNCED HE WAS STEPPING SIDEWAYS -- HE DIDN'T SAY ASIDE, SIDEWAYS.

HE'S GOING TO BE CHAIRMAN EMERITUS, NOBODY EXPECTS RUPERT MURDOCH AS LONG AS HE'S GOT BREATH LEFT IN HIM NOT TO INFLUENCE HIS OWN CORPORATION.

MANY BELIEVE -- MANY WHO DON'T AGREE WITH HIM -- BELIEVE THAT THROUGH HIS POLITICS, THROUGH HIS VERY POWERFUL NEWS ORGANIZATIONS HERE IN THE UK OBVIOUSLY WITH NEWS CORE AND FOX NEWS IN THE UNITED STATES, IT HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE DECLINE IN POLICY AND THE KIND OF POLITICS YOU TALK ABOUT, PARTICULARLY THE CENTRIST POLITICS, EVEN THEN BRITISH TORY PRIME MINISTER DAVID CAMERON ADMITTED -- AND WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS BACK AFTER THE HACKING SCANDAL HERE.

>> HOW DO I THINK ON ALL SIDES OF THE HOUSE THERE'S A BIT OF A WE ALL DID TOO MUCH COZYING UP TO RUPERT MURDOCH, I THINK WE'D AGREE.

>> IT'S NOT JUST CAMERON, I THINK CERTAINLY TONY BLAIR COZIED UP, BEFORE THAT MARGARET THATCHER.

ALL BRITISH PRIME MINISTERS COZIED UP TO HIM BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE HE IS WHAT STANDS BETWEEN THEM AND VICTORY OR DEFEAT.

WHERE DO YOU THINK -- HOW DO YOU SEE THE INFLUENCE OF MURDOCH PRESS IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> I THINK IT'S TERRIFYING THE WAY THAT MEDIA OWNERS CONTROL SO MUCH.

WE CAN SEE THIS SORT OF PLAYED OUT IN THE DRAMA OF SUCCESSION.

THERE WAS HUGE PRESSURE FOR PEOPLE TO ATTEND RUPERT MURDOCH'S PARTIES.

PEOPLE WOULD ALWAYS PICK UP THE TELEPHONE IF HE CALLED.

I MYSELF I SAT NEXT TO HIM AT A DINNER PARTY.

HE VERY CHARMINGLY TOOK ME OFF THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, MADE ME SPEAK TO THE EDITORS.

HE COULD BE WHEN HE WANTED A VERY CHARMING MAN.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT GAVE HIM AN UNBELIEVABLE FORM OF POWER.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S ROTTEN AT THE HEART OF AMERICAN POLITICS, BRITISH POLITICS.

IT'S TRUE ALSO WE'VE HAD THE SON OF A KGB OFFICER BUYING THE EVENING STANDARD IN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

SO WE END UP IN A VERY ODD POSITION, AND WE MUST REFORM THIS.

AND DAVID CAMERON FAILED.

HE DID NOT FOLLOW THROUGH ON THAT INQUIRY AND DO THE THINGS THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE TO TRY TO REGULATE OUR MEDIA.

>> I MEAN, YOU TALKING ABOUT I THINK ALEXANDER LEB DETECTIVE.

>> YEVGENY.

>> THE OTHER ONE WAS THE KGB.

>> EXACTLY.

>> AND BORIS JOHNSON MADE HIM A LORD.

>> BORIS JOHNSON MADE HIM A LORD.

HE PUBLISHED VERY POSITIVE STORIES ABOUT BORIS JOHNSON.

BORIS JOHNSON WENT PARTYING IN HIS CASTLE IN ITALY.

ALL OF THIS STUFF IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY SICK, BUT IT'S GETTING WORSE NOW.

AND AGAIN, A LOT OF THE BOOK IS ABOUT THIS WITH SOCIAL MEDIA.

I THINK IT'S VERY TEMPTING TO THINK THE PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE IN BRITAIN WITH BORIS JOHNSON AND BREXIT ARE UNIQUE TO BRITAIN, BUT THEY'RE STRUCTURAL.

IT'S ABOUT HOW TWITTER WORKS.

IT'S ABOUT HOW FACEBOOK WORKS.

WE CAN SEE WHAT ELON MUSK IS CURRENTLY TRYING TO DO WITH TWITTER, AND IT'S GOING TO GET MUCH WORSE WITH AI.

I'M TERRIFIED FOR THE NEXT ELECTION COMING IN THE U.S., JUST HOW MUCH AI IS GOING TO MAKE THE PROBLEM OF FAKE NEWS FAR WORSE THAN ANYTHING WE'VE SEEN.

>> LET'S GO BACK TO THE ELECTION.

SO THERE HAS TO BE AN ELECTION BEFORE 2025 OR BY 2025.

IT'S ASSUMED THAT THE PRIME MINISTER WOULD CALL ONE PERHAPS IN THE SUMMER OR IN THE FALL, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE LABOR PARTY, KEIR STARMER SEEMS TO BE AT LEAST 20 POINTS AHEAD OF RISHI SUNAK, AND BLOOMBERG HAS RECENTLY DONE A POLL.

WHAT DO PROFESSIONAL INVESTORS THINK WILL BE THE MOST MARKET FRIENDLY OUTCOME OF THE NEXT ELECTION?

ACCORDING TO BLOOMBERG, 44% SAY A LABOR VICTORY, 25% SAY A CONSERVATIVE VICTORY.

SO YOU ARE NOT A LABOR POLITICIAN.

YOU'RE NO LONGER A TORY POLITICIAN BECAUSE YOU WERE KICKED OUT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK A KEIR STARMER VICTORY -- AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE -- >> VERY LIKELY TO WIN.

>> WHAT WILL THAT DO TO POLITICS AND POLICY IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> WELL, I THINK ON THE POSITIVE SIDE, KEIR STARMER IS NOT A POPULIST POLITICIAN.

HE'S A PRETTY SERIOUS, ALMOST BORING POLITICIAN.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT A YEAR OUT FROM THE ELECTION WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS ECONOMIC POLICIES ARE.

EVERYBODY THINKS HE'S GOING TO WIN, BUT I DO THESE BIG CROWDS AROUND THE COUNTRY, ROYAL ALBERT HALL AND THINGS LIKE THIS, YOU ASK THE AUDIENCE, ANYBODY IN YOUR AUDIENCE STICK YOUR HANDS UP IF YOU KNOW WHAT KEIR STARMER'S ECONOMIC POLICIES ARE.

NOBODY WILL DO IT.

HE'S DOING A MING VA STRATEGY, HE'S TRYING TO CARRY THE PARTY ACROSS VERY CAREFULLY WITH TAKING NO RISK, AND THE PROBLEM FOR AN INVESTOR, THE PROBLEM FOR CONFIDENCE IN THE BRITISH ECONOMY IS PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO ON TRADE?

WHAT'S HE GOING TO DO ON INVESTMENT, WHAT'S HE GOING TO DO ON THE EUROPEAN UNION?

I THINK IT'S THE CENTER AND I BELIEVE PASSIONATELY IN A MODERATE CENTER.

I KNOW IT'S UNFASHIONABLE.

>> DO YOU THINK IT EXISTS?

>> I THINK IT CAN BE REBUILT.

I'VE JUST COME BACK LIKE YOU FROM THE U.S. >> THE U.N.

ASSEMBLY THERE.

>> AND MANY OF MY FRIENDS ON THE LEFT OF U.S. POLICY SAY FORGET THE CENTER, WE'VE JUST GOT TO KILL THE RIGHT.

THIS IS VERY MUCH THE MODERN POLITICS.

I THINK IT NEEDS IDEAS, THAT'S WHERE I'M FRUSTRATED.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE POLLS SHOW, BUT CLEARLY THE LOUDEST VOICES ARE ON THE EDGES, ON THE EXTREMES.

DO YOU THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE IN THE CENTER?

>> I THINK MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT IN THE END TRUTH IS IN THE CENTER.

THAT THERE'S A BIT OF TRUTH ON BOTH SIDES, THAT YOU NEED TO COMPROMISE.

BUT TO GET THE ENERGY AGAIN, THE WHOLE CLINTON BLAIR TRADITION NEEDS TO ACKNOWLEDGE HOW MUCH WE GOT WRONG IN THE PAST, AND IT NEEDS TO HAVE A VERY CLEAR VISION OF HOW WE'RE GOING TO DELIVER FOR PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE.

>> CAN I JUST TALK TO YOU ABOUT CLIMATE BECAUSE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT MANY, MANY PEOPLE, VOTERS, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE VERY ENERGIZED ABOUT.

SO BRITISH PRIME MINISTER AS I SAID IN THE INTRODUCTION, LAST STARTED DECIDED TO ROLL BACK THE TARGETS FOR, YOU KNOW, THE WATERING DOWN THE POLICIES.

YOU KNOW, I TALKED -- HERE'S WHAT HE SAID ABOUT IT, AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE REACTION.

>> WE'RE CONFIDENT WE'RE ON TRACK TO DELIVER NET ZERO, AND WE CAN DO IT NOW IN A MORE PROPORTIONATE AND PRAGMATIC WAY.

THAT'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO BRING PEOPLE WITH US, MAINTAIN CONSENT FOR IT AND MINIMIZE COSTS FOR WORKING FAMILIES THAT COULD HAVE SPIRALLED INTO THE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF POUNDS, I DON'T IMAGINE THAT'S RIGHT.

>> WITH THE SHEEP IN THE BACKGROUND, HADN'T SEEN THAT BEFORE.

THIS IS A VERY OLD CANARD.

IS IT REAL, THE FACT THAT OUR BEST INTENTIONS ARE GOING TO BANKRUPT OUR PEOPLE?

>> I THINK THE FIRST THING IS THAT IT'S VERY SAD WHAT HE'S DONE.

THE UK SET THESE TARGETS.

WE WERE GOING TO BE IN A SITUATION 2030 WHERE YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BUY A PETROL OR DIESEL CAR, AND ALL THE AUTOMOBILE MANUFACTURING ARRANGED AROUND THAT.

ENERGY CAN CHANGING THEIR HOUSES, THERE WAS PREDICTABILITY IN DATES.

HE'S PUSHED THOSE DATES OUT, AND SUDDENLY AS SOON AS YOU GET AN UNCERTAINTY AND WAVER, ALL THE INVESTMENTS CHANGE IT.

HE'S DOING IT BECAUSE HE'S CALCULATING THERE ARE VOTES IN IT.

I THINK HE'S WRONG.

I THINK IT MAKES HIM LOOK WEAK, BUT THERE IS ONE BIT OF TRUTH, TO ACHIEVE ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE, WE CANNOT PUT THE COSTS ON THE POOREST PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETY.

WE MUST MAKE THE CHANGE AND CHANGE MUST COME FROM INCENTIVIZING PEOPLE TO CHANGE ENERGY, BUT GOVERNMENT HAS TO PROVIDE THE CASH FOR THE POOREST PEOPLE TO MAKE THAT CHANGE FRPT THE PROBLEM AT THE MOMENT IS BECAUSE POOR PEOPLE FIND THE LARGER PERCENTAGE OF THEIR INCOME GOING IN THEIR FUEL AND THEIR HEATING.

THEY END UP BEARING THE BRUNT OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL TAXES.

>> THAT'S VERY CLEAR, BUT THE FACT OF, YOU KNOW, HIM HAVING DONE THAT AND SORT OF DEPARTED FROM MOST OF THE G-7 AND OTHERS ON THIS, AL GORE, THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT WHO'S OBVIOUSLY A MAJOR CLIMATE ACTIVIST, I ASKED THE DAY I WAS INTERVIEWING HIM IN NEW YORK.

AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT IT AND ABOUT BRITAIN'S POSITION IN THE WORLD.

>> I WILL SAY ON A PERSONAL BASIS, I FIND IT SHOCKING AND REALLY DISAPPOINTING, OF COURSE.

I THINK HE'S DONE THE WRONG THING.

I'VE HEARD FROM MANY OF MY FRIENDS IN THE UK, INCLUDING A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE PARTY MEMBERS, BY THE WAY, WHO HAVE USED THE PHRASE UTTER DISGUST.

AND SOME OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THERE FEEL AS IF THEIR GENERATION HAS BEEN STABBED IN THE BACK.

IT'S REALLY SHOCKING TO ME.

BUT AGAIN, THIS IS AN ISSUE FOR THE UK TO HANDLE.

>> WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT BRITISH LEADERSHIP TO YOU?

>> SHOCKING.

FIRSTLY, I AGREE WITH EVERY WORD, BUT SECONDLY, IT'S VERY, VERY SAD.

I MEAN, THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY UNDER DAVID CAMERON ACTUALLY HAD QUITE A GOOD ENVIRONMENTAL RECORD STRANGELY.

INTRODUCED NET ZERO TARGETS.

WE WERE ABLE TO DOUBLE OUR SPEND ON CLIMATE AND THE ENVIRONMENT IN OUR INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMS.

ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING THAT THEY WAY THAT POPULISM TAKES ROOT.

IT IS NOT JUST ANTI-IMMIGRATION.

IT GETS GOING ON CLIMATE.

RISHI SUNAK, YOU HEARD HIM THERE IN FRONT OF THE SHEEP, SOUNDS EXTREMELY REASONABLE.

>> YEP.

>> THE UNDERLYING MESSAGE IS ESSENTIALLY SIGNALING TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> I PROBABLY HAVE ONLY ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT.

WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY, NOT TO GET INTO POLITICS OR TO DO IT DIFFERENTLY?

>> I WANT THE FIRST TAKEAWAY TO BE OUR POLITICS IS A MESS IN THE U.S., THE WORLD, AND THE UK AND THAT WE NEED TO CHANGE IT AND READ THIS BOOK IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND HOW BAD IT IS AND WHAT WE NEED TO CHANGE EVERYWHERE.

>> AND THE SOLUTIONS YOU'VE WRITTEN DOWN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> VERY GOOD, THANK YOU.

"HOW NOT TO BE A POLITICIAN" RORY STEWART, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NOW, AS AI, WE'VE JUST BEEN DISCUSSING, CONTINUES TO CHANGE EVERYDAY LIFE, IT'S ALSO REWRITING OUR RIGHT TO PRIVACY.

ONE SMALL AI COMPANY IN THE U.S. CLAIMS TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY ANYONE WITH JUST ABOUT 99% ACCURACY BASED ON JUST ONE PHOTO OF THEIR FACE.

"NEW YORK TIMES" TECH JOURNALIST KASHMIR HILL HAS BEEN REPORTING ABOUT THE CONTROVERSIAL SOFTWARE IN HER NEW BOOK, YOUR FACE BELONGS TO US, AND SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE DANGERS OF THIS TECHNOLOGY.

>> CHRISTIANE THANKS, KASHMIR HILL, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

LET'S STARTS WITH THE TITLE "YOUR FACE BELONGS TO US."

WHO'S THE US?

HOW DID THEY GET MY FACE?

>> THE US IN THE BACK IS PRIMARILY CLEAR VIEW AI, WHICH IS THIS COMPANY I HEARD ABOUT A FEW YEARS AGO THAT SCRAPED BILLIONS OF PHOTOS FROM THE PUBLIC INTERNET WITHOUT PEOPLE'S PERMISSION TO CREATE THIS FACE RECOGNITION APP THAT THEY WERE SECRETLY SELLING TO THE POLICE.

>> AND HOW SUCCESSFUL IS CLEAR VIEW?

>> CLEAR VIEW WORKS WITH THOUSANDS OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

THEY HAVE $2 MILLION IN CONTRACTS WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

THEY HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THE FBI.

THEY'VE RECEIVED FUNDING FROM THE AIR FORCE AND THE ARMY TO WORK ON THE FACIAL RECOGNITION GLASSES, AUGMENTED REALITY GLASSES THAT YOU CAN WEAR AND IDENTIFY SOMEONE.

SO THEY HAVE HAD SUCCESS SELLING THEIR PRODUCT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.

>> SO GIVE ME AN IDEA IN THE SORT OF GRAND SCHEME OF BIOMETRICS FROM FINGERPRINTS TO TAKING A PICTURE OF YOUR PHOTO -- OR YOUR FACE AND IDENTIFYING IT, WHAT GOES INTO FACIAL RECOGNITION TO MAKE IT WORK, AND HOW GOOD IS THE STUFF THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

>> THE TECHNOLOGY THAT SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR DECADES.

IT USED TO NOT WORK VERY WELL, VERY FLAWED WHEN IT CAME TO PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT WHITE MEN.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THAT A COMPUTER IS LOOKING AT ALL THE INFORMATION FROM A FACE FROM A DIGITAL IMAGE, AND YOU KNOW, IF IT'S TRAINED ON ENOUGH FACES WHICH THERE ARE A LOT OF FACES NOW IN THE INTERNET AGE, IT'S ABLE TO KIND OF FIGURE OUT WHAT IS UNIQUE FROM ONE FACE TO ANOTHER, AND SO THESE FACE RECOGNITION APPS GO OUT AND ESSENTIALLY LIKE LOOK FOR A FACE THAT MATCHES THE FACE IT'S GIVEN, AND SO IT -- THEY CAN WORK PRETTY WELL AT FINDING YOU.

BUT THEY MIGHT ALSO FIND DOPPELGANGERS, AND SO THAT'S BEEN A PROBLEM IN POLICE USE OF THE APP.

THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED FOR THE CRIME OF LOOKING LIKE SOMEONE ELSE.

>> THIS TECHNOLOGY THAT THE COMPANIES HAVE DOESN'T REQUIRE A NICE WELL-LIT HEAD SHOT OF ME LOOKING DIRECTLY INTO THE CAMERA, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, THIS IS WHAT POLICE OFFICERS TOLD ME WHEN I FIRST HEARD ABOUT CLEAR VIEW AI, THEY SAID THE FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY HAD BEEN USING BEFORE THAT JUST WORKED ON CRIMINAL, YOU KNOW, MUG SHOTS, STATE DRIVER'S LICENSES, IT DIDN'T WORK THAT WELL, BUT WHEN THEY STARTED USING THE CLEAR VIEW AI APP, WHICH HAD NEWER TECHNOLOGY, A FRESHER ALGORITHM, IT WOULD WORK EVEN WHEN SOMEBODY WAS TURNED AWAY FROM THE CAMERA, WEARING A HAT, YOU KNOW, WEARING GLASSES.

I TALKED TO THIS ONE FINANCIAL CRIMES DETECTIVE IN GAINESVILLE INCREDIBLE.

I HAD A STACK OF WANTED FRAUDSTERS ON MY DESK.

I RAN THEM THROUGH CLEAR VIEW AI, AND I GOT HIT AFTER HIT AFTER HIT, AND HE SAID I'D BE THEIR SPOKESPERSON IF THEY WANTED ME.

>> IS THIS LEAP FORWARD THAT WE'RE SEEING NOW, IS IT THAT THE TECHNOLOGY HAS GOTTEN BETTER OR IS IT THAT ESSENTIALLY THE ETHICS HAVE GOTTEN LOOSER?

>> THE TECHNOLOGY HAS GOTTEN BETTER, BUT ONE THING I DISCOVERED WHILE I WAS DOING THE RESEARCH FOR THE BOOK IS THAT BOTH GOOGLE AND FACEBOOK DEVELOPED THIS TECHNOLOGY INTERNALLY AS EARLY AS 2011, ERIC SCHMIDT, THE THEN CHAIRMAN OF GOOGLE SAID THAT IT WAS THE ONE TECHNOLOGY THAT GOOGLE HAD DEVELOPED AND DECIDED TO HOLD BACK BECAUSE IT WAS TOO DANGEROUS.

FACEBOOK ENGINEERS AT ONE POINT RIGGED UP THIS SMARTPHONE ON A BASEBALL CAP, AND WHEN YOU TURNED YOUR HEAD AND THE CAMERA ZOOMED IN ON SOMEBODY, IT COULD CALL OUT THEIR NAME, BUT FACEBOOK TOO DECIDED TO HOLD THE TECHNOLOGY BACK.

AND THESE ARE NOT COMPANIES KNOWN AS BEING, YOU KNOW, PRIVACY PROTECTIVE ORGANIZATIONS.

THEY'VE PIONEERED MANY TECHNOLOGIES THAT HAVE KIND OF CHANGED OUR NOTIONS OF PRIVACY.

THEY FELT IT WAS TOO DANGEROUS.

WHAT WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT CLEAR VIEW AI, IT WASN'T THAT THEY MADE A TECHNOLOGICAL BREAKTHROUGH, IT WAS AN ETHICAL ONE THAT THEY WERE WILLING TO DO WHAT OTHER COMPANIES HADN'T BEEN WILLING TO DO.

>> WOW.

I HAD A CHANCE TO INTERVIEW THE CEO OF CLEAR VIEW A COUPLE YEARS AGO, AND AT THE TIME HE SAID THAT THEY HAD NOT HAD ANY SORT OF FALSEHOODS, ANY MISIDENTIFICATION, AND YET, WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN AND WRITING ABOUT IN "THE TIMES" THESE DAYS IS A SERIES OF INSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MISIDENTIFIED FOR CRIMES THAT THEY DIDN'T COMMIT BY FACIAL RECOGNITION SOFTWARE AND HAD TO, WELL, SUFFER BECAUSE OF IT.

>> YEAH, I DISCOVERED ONE CASE THAT APPEARS TO INVOLVE CLEAR VIEW AI, A MAN NAMED RANDALL REED.

HE LIVES IN GEORGIA.

HE GETS PULLED OVER ONE DAY BY THE POLICE AND THEY SAY THERE'S A WARRANT FOR HIS ARREST.

HE IS ARRESTED.

HE IS HELD IN JAIL FOR A WEEK.

THE CRIME WAS COMMITTED IN LOUISIANA, AND HE'D NEVER EVEN BEEN TO LOUISIANA, AND SO HE'S SITTING IN JAIL WAITING TO BE EXTRADITED.

HE HAS NO IDEA WHY HE'S TIED TO THIS CRIME, AND IT TURNS OUT THAT THE DETECTIVES HAD RUN CLEAR VIEW AI ON SURVEILLANCE FOOTAGE, AND IT HAD MATCHED TO HIM, AND HE WAS ARRESTED EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, HE LIVED, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY FROM WHERE THE CRIME OCCURRED.

>> AND WHAT EVENTUALLY HAPPENED?

HOW WAS HE KIND OF EXONERATED?

HE WAS SORT OF GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT BY THIS TECHNOLOGY.

>> SO HE GOT A GOOD LAWYER, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS TO THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE FALSELY ARRESTED.

THEY DO HAVE TO HIRE LAWYERS TO DEFEND THEM.

THE LAWYER WENT AND ACTUALLY WENT TO THE CONSIGNMENT STORES WHERE HE WAS ACCUSED OF USING A STOLEN CREDIT CARD TO BUY DESIGNER PURSES, AND HE ASKED TO SEE THE SURVEILLANCE FOOTAGE, AND ONE OF THE STORE OWNERS SHOWED IT TO HIM, AND HE SAID, DOES LOOK A LOT LIKE MY CLIENT, BUT IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT HIM, AND HE CALLED THE DETECTIVE AND THE DETECTIVE REVEALED TO HIM THAT THEY HAD USED FACIAL RECOGNITION APP IN THE CASE.

AND SO HE GOT A BUNCH OF PHOTOS OF HIS CLIENT, A VIDEO THAT HIS CLIENT HAD MADE OF HIS FACE, GAVE IT TO THE POLICE, AND THEY REALIZED THAT THEY HAD THE WRONG PERSON, AND THE CASE WAS DROPPED.

>> THERE WAS A RECENT CASE YOU WROTE ABOUT, A WOMAN WHO WAS 8 MONTHS PREGNANT WHO WAS TAKEN TO JAIL AFTER A MISIDENTIFICATION.

>> YES, A WOMAN NAMED PORTIA WOODRUFF, IT HAPPENED ON A THURSDAY MORNING IN FEBRUARY.

SHE WAS GETTING HER TWO YOUNG CHILDREN READY FOR SCHOOL.

POLICE TURNED UP AT HER DOOR SAYING SHE WAS UNDER ARREST FOR CAR -- FOR ROBBERY AND CARJACKING, AND SHE WAS JUST IN SHOCK.

SHE COULDN'T BELIEVE IT.

SHE SAID, WELL, IS THE PERSON WHO COMMITTED THIS CRIME PREGNANT?

YOU KNOW, LOOK AT ME.

AND SHE GOT TAKEN TO JAIL.

SPENT THE DAY IN JAIL.

YOU KNOW, WAS CHARGED.

AGAIN, HAD TO HIRE A LAWYER AND IT WAS ALL, AGAIN, A CASE OF MISTAKEN IDENTITY.

SHE WAS ARRESTED FOR THE CRIME OF LOOKING LIKE SOMEONE ELSE, AND AFTER SHE SPENT THE DAY IN JAIL, SHE WENT TO THE HOSPITAL BECAUSE SHE WAS SO DEHYDRATED AND STRESSED OUT FROM BEING ACCUSED OF THIS CRIME.

IT'S ACTUALLY THE THIRD TIME THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED IN DETROIT THAT -- THAT'S WHERE PORTIA WOODRUFF LIVES, AND ALL OF THE CASES THAT WE KNOW ABOUT WHERE SOMEONE'S BEEN FALSELY ARRESTED, THE PERSON HAS BEEN BLACK.

>> WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT KIND OF ALGORITHMIC BIAS AND BIAS IN THE STRUCTURE OF SYSTEMS.

HOW DOES THAT WORK WHEN IT COMES TO FACIAL RECOGNITION?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY FOR A LONG TIME WAS REALLY FLAWED WHEN IT CAME TO HOW WELL IT WORKED ON DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE, AND THE REASON WAS THAT WHEN IT WAS INITIALLY BEING DEVELOPED, THE PEOPLE WERE WORKING ON IT TENDED TO BE WHITE MEN, AND THEY TENDED TO MAKE SURE THE TECHNOLOGY WORKED WELL ON THEM AND PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE THEM, AND SO THEY WOULD TRAIN IT ON PHOTOS OF THIS WAS KIND OF REALIZED AND PEOPLE IGNORED IT, FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY WAS DEPLOYED IN THE REAL WORLD WITH THIS BASIC FLAW IN IT, BUT YOU KNOW, THE VENDORS HAVE TAKEN THE CRITICISM TO HEART, AND THEY NOW DO TRAIN THEIR ALGORITHMS WITH MORE DIVERSE SETS OF FACES, AND SO THE TECHNOLOGY HAS COME A LONG WAY.

BUT AS YOU SEE FROM THESE FALSE ARRESTS, THERE ARE STILL DISTURBING OUTCOMES, RACIST OUTCOMES THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE WAY THE TECHNOLOGY IS BEING DEPLOYED AND MISUSED.

>> I'VE POINTED OUT A COUPLE OF CASES WHERE IT'S BEEN USED AND IT'S COME OUT WITH HORRIBLE OUTCOMES.

WHAT ARE SOME CASES WHERE FACIAL RECOGNITION HAS BEEN USED TO ACTUALLY CATCH THE CORRECT BAD GUY, SO TO SPEAK?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY IS A POWERFUL INVESTIGATIVE TOOL, THAT'S WHAT POLICE OFFICERS TOLD ME.

THEY SAID IT CAN REALLY BE A GAME CHANGER IN AN INVESTIGATION WHEN ALL YOU HAVE IS SOMEBODY'S FACE.

PARTICULARLY IT'S BEEN POPULAR WITH CHILD CRIME INVESTIGATORS WHO ARE OFTEN WORKING WITH, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY PHOTOS OF ABUSE, AND THEY HAVE PHOTOS OF NOT JUST THE ABUSER BUT ALSO THE CHILD WHO'S BEING ABUSED, AND THEY HAVE BEEN USING CLEAR VIEW AI TO TRY TO SOLVE THESE CASES AND, YOU KNOW, I HAVE HEARD OF MANY SUCCESS STORIES.

ONE OF THE CRAZIER STORIES I HEARD FROM A DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AGENT WAS HE HAD A PHOTO.

HE WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO THE ABUSER WAS.

AN AGENT FRIEND OF HIS RAN IT THROUGH CLEAR VIEW AI AND FOUND THE GUY STANDING IN THE BACKGROUND OF SOMEONE ELSE'S INSTAGRAM PHOTO.

AND THAT WAS -- YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A CRUMB THAT LED HIM TO FIGURE OUT WHO THAT MAN WAS.

HE LIVED IN LAS VEGAS, AND HE WAS ABLE TO ARREST HIM AND REMOVE THE CHILD FROM HIM HAVING ACCESS TO HER.

>> THIS IS ONE CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW IT'S USED IN POLICING.

MULTIPLE SITUATIONS WHERE IT'S BEYOND POLICING.

IT IS IN GROCERY STORES IN THE UK RIGHT NOW.

IT IS IN DEPARTMENT STORES IN AMERICA TODAY.

YOU KNOW, TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU TRIED TO GO HAD INTO A RANGER'S GAME WITH SOMEONE -- WELL, TELL ME THAT STORY AT MADISON SQUARE GARDEN.

>> YEAH, SO I WENT WITH A PERSONAL INJURY LAWYER TO -- IT WAS ACTUALLY A KNICKS GAME AT MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, AND YOU KNOW, WE PUT OUR BAGS ON THE SECURITY BELT TO GO THROUGH THE METAL DETECTOR.

AND AS WE WERE COLLECTING OUR BAGS, A SECURITY GUARD CAME OVER AND PULLED THIS PERSONAL INJURY ATTORNEY ASIDE, AND HE SAID, OH, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN FLAGGED.

WE USE A FACIAL RECOGNITION SYSTEM HERE, AND MY MANAGER'S GOING TO COME OVER, AND HE'S GOING TO NEED TO TALK TO YOU.

AND THIS ATTORNEY WAS ONE OF THOUSANDS OF ATTORNEYS WHO HAVE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN ENFORCED WITH FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE SHE WORKS AT A FIRM THAT HAS A CASE AGAINST THE COMPANY.

SHE'S NOT WORKING ON THAT CASE, BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE OWNER OF MADISON SQUARE GARDEN JAMES DOLAN HAS DECIDED TO DEPLOY TO KIND OF PUNISH HIS ENEMIES.

SO THE MANAGER CAME OVER AND SAID -- HE GAVE HER BASICALLY A NOTE KICKING HER OUT AND SAID YOU'RE NOT WELCOME HERE UNTIL YOUR FIRM RESOLVES THAT LITIGATION, DROPS THE CASE AGAINST US.

>> INTERESTINGLY, YOU POINT OUT THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE OWNER OF MSG COULD NOT USE THIS TOOL AT A FACILITY THAT HE OWNS IN CHICAGO.

HOW COME?

>> SO HE CAN DEPLOY THIS TECHNOLOGY AGAINST LAWYERS AT HIS NEW YORK VENUES, LIKE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN AND RADIO CITY MUSIC HALL, BUT NOT AT THEIR CHICAGO THEATER BECAUSE ILLINOIS HAS A LAW CALLED THE ACT, PRESCIENTLY PASS INSTEAD 2008 THAT SAYS PEOPLE HAVE CONTROL OF THEIR BIOMETRIC INFORMATION INCLUDING THEIR FACE PRINT, AND IF A COMPANY WANTS TO USE IT, THEY NEED TO GET CONSENT, AND IF THEY DON'T, THE COMPANY WOULD NEED TO PAY UP TO $5,000 PER, YOU KNOW, FACE OR BIOMETRIC INFORMATION IT USED.

AND SO YES, MADISON SQUARE GARDEN HAS A BAN LIST IN CHICAGO, BUT IT DOES NOT ENFORCE IT BY SCANNING PEOPLE'S FACES AS THEY ENTER THE VENUE.

>> SO IF THIS IS HAPPENING IN ILLINOIS BECAUSE OF REGULATION AND THERE'S ALSO OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THAT ARE ALSO FOLLOWING SUIT, RIGHT?

WHEN IT COMES TO CLEAR VIEW AI, IT'S BANNED IN SEVERAL COUNTRIES WHETHER IT CAN BE USED.

>> AFTER I EXPOSED THE EXISTENCE OF CLEAR VIEW AI, A NUMBER OF PRIVACY REGULATORS ANNOUNCED L INVESTIGATIONS.

THEY ALL SAID WHAT THE COMPANY THEY CAN'T OPERATE IN THEIR COUNTRIES ANYMORE AND NEEDED TO DELETE THEIR CITIZENS' INFORMATION FROM THE DATABASE.

THEY ALSO WERE ISSUED SOME FINES.

WHILE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET THEIR CITIZENS' INFORMATION OUT OF THE DATABASE, THEY HAVE EFFECTIVELY KEPT CLEAR VIEW AI FROM OPERATING IN THEIR COUNTRIES, AND SO YEAH, WE DO LIVE IN A WORLD RIGHT NOW WHERE YOUR FACE IS BETTER PROTECTED IN BASICALLY SOME PLACES BETTER THAN OTHERS.

>> I MEAN, SO LET'S KIND OF FAST FORWARD FIVE YEARS OUT, I MEAN, WE SEEM TO BE AT AN INFLECTION POINT WHERE WE OUGHT TO BE THINKING ABOUT THE IMPACT AND THE RAMIFICATIONS THIS TECHNOLOGY HAS ON SOCIETY AND MAYBE, YOU KNOW, IN A BEST CASE WORLD CREATING POLICIES AROUND IT.

BUT AT THE PACE AT WHICH TECHNOLOGY IS CHANGING AND THE PACE AT WHICH LEGISLATORS ARE ACTUALLY RESPONDING, WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS GOING IN FIVE YEARS?

>> I THINK UNLESS PRIVACY LAWS ARE MORE UNIFORMLY PASSED AND ENFORCED, I DO THINK WE COULD HAVE A WORLD WHERE FACIAL RECOGNITION IS PRETTY UBIQUITOUS WHERE PEOPLE COULD HAVE AN APP ON THIS PHONE, AND IT WOULD MEAN THAT WHEN YOU'RE OUT IN PUBLIC, YOU COULD BE READILY IDENTIFIED, YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU'RE BUYING HEMORRHOID CREAM AT THE PHARMACY OR WHEN YOU GO INTO A BAR AND YOU MEET SOMEBODY YOU NEVER TO WANT SEE AGAIN AND THEY JUST FIND OUT WHO YOU ARE.

OR YOU'RE JUST HAVING A SENSITIVE CONVERSATION OVER DINNER ASSUMING YOU HAVE THE ANONYMITY OF BEING SURROUNDED BY STRANGERS, AND IF YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT'S INTERESTING, MAYBE SOMEBODY TAKES A PICTURE OF YOUR FACE, AND NOW THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

I THINK IF WE DON'T KIND OF REIN IT IN, IT COULD REALLY CHANGE WHAT IT IS TO BE ANONYMOUS.

>> DID YOU SPEAK WITH CLEAR VIEW AI ABOUT IT?

BECAUSE IN THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK WHAT WAS INTERESTING WAS JUST LITERALLY HOW THEY KNEW YOU WERE WORKING ON THE STORY, BUT DID THEY EVENTUALLY TALK TO YOU?

>> YEAH, ORIGINALLY CLEAR VIEW AI DID NOT WANT TO TALK TO ME.

THEY WERE NOT HAPPY I WAS GOING TO BE WRITING ABOUT THEM.

THERE WERE SOME STRANGE, YOU KNOW, RED FLAGS ABOUT THE COMPANY.

THEY HAD AN ADDRESS ON THEIR WEBSITE FOR A BUILDING THAT DID NOT EXIST.

THEY HAD KIND OF ONE FAKE EMPLOYEE ON LINKEDIN.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TALK TO ME, AND I ENDED UP TALKING TO POLICE OFFICERS WHO WERE USING THE APP AND OFTENTIMES THE POLICE OFFICERS WOULD OFFER TO RUN MY PHOTO TO KIND OF SHOW ME HOW WELL THE APP WORKED, AND EVERY TIME THIS HAPPENED THE POLICE OFFICER WOULD EVENTUALLY STOP TALKING TO ME, AND FOR TWO OF THE POLICE OFFICERS, THEY SAID YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RESULTS.

THERE'S NO PHOTOS IN THE APP FOR YOU.

THAT'S REALLY STRANGE.

AND EVENTUALLY I FOUND OUT THAT CLEAR VIEW AI WAS ACTUALLY -- EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T TALKING TO ME, IT WAS TRACKING ME, AND IT HAD SOME KIND OF ALERT FOR WHEN MY PHOTO WAS UPLOADED.

IT HAD BLOCKED RESULTS FOR ME, AND ONE OF THE OFFICERS I TALKED TO MINUTES AFTER HE RAN MY FACE GOT A CALL FROM THE COMPANY TELLING THEM -- TELLING HIM THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY KNEW HE HAD DONE THIS AND HE WASN'T SUPPOSED TO, AND THEY DEACTIVATED HIS APP.

AND IT REALLY FREAKED HIM OUT.

HE SAID I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THIS COMPANY WOULD KNOW WHO I WAS LOOKING FOR, THAT THEY KNOW WHO LAW ENFORCEMENT IS SEARCHING FOR AND THAT THEY CAN CONTROL WHETHER THEY COULD BE FOUND.

IT WAS REALLY A PRETTY CHILLING START TO THE INVESTIGATION.

>> SO WHEN YOU EVENTUALLY DID SPEAK TO THEM, WHAT DID THEY SAY ABOUT THESE CASES OF MISIDENTIFICATION OR THE POSSIBILITIES OF THAT?

>> SO AT THE TIME I STARTED TALKING TO CLEAR VIEW AI THEY DIDN'T KNOW OF ANY MISIDENTIFICATIONS YET.

THEY SAID IT'S A RISK, BUT OUR TECHNOLOGY IS NEVER MEANT TO BE USED TO ARREST SOMEBODY.

WE JUST TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, GIVE POLICE A LEAD IN A CASE, AND THEN THEY HAVE TO DO MORE INVESTIGATING.

THEY NEED TO FIND EVIDENCE, AND SO HE KIND OF DISTANCED HIMSELF FROM THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHEN THIS GOES WRONG.

>> AND HAS THIS CHANGED HOW YOU DO YOUR REPORTING?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THE FIRST TIME THAT WAN TAN TAT RAN MY OWN PHOTO THROUGH CLEAR VIEW AI ONCE THE COMPANY STOPPED BLOCKING THE RESULTS.

I WAS REALLY SHOCKED BY THE PHOTOS THAT CAME UP, PHOTOS OF ME WALKING IN THE BACKGROUND OF OTHER PEOPLE'S PHOTOS.

A PHOTO OF ME ACTUALLY WITH A SOURCE, SOMEBODY I HAD BEEN INTERVIEWING AT THE TIME FOR A STORY THAT I DIDN'T REALIZE WAS ON THE INTERNET.

IT MADE ME THINK, WOW, I MIGHT NEED TO BE MORE CAREFUL IN PUBLIC, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T JUST LEAVE YOUR PHONE AT HOME AND MEET AT A DIVE BAR AND ASSUME THAT NO ONE WILL KNOW IT.

THIS IS SOMETHING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS REALIZED AS WELL, WHILE I WAS WORKING ON THE BOOK, THE CIA SENT OUT A WARNING TO ALL OF ITS OUTPOSTS AND SAID OUR INFORMANTS ARE BEING -- ARE BEING IDENTIFIED.

YOU KNOW, THEIR IDENTITIES ARE BEING COMPROMISED BY NEW ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TOOLS INCLUDING FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "YOUR FACE BELONGS TO US," KASHMIR HILL FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, ARI.

>> THAT SOUNDS REALLY CHILLING.

SEVEN-YEAR VOYAGE IN SPACE, THE LARGEST SAMPLE EVER COLLECTED FROM AN ASTEROID HAS RETURNED TO EARTH, A SAMPLE THAT COULD REVEAL THE SECRETS TO THE ORIGINS OF LIFE ITSELF AND PLAYING A VITAL ROLE IN NASA'S TEAM, ONE UNEXPECTED MEMBER, DR. BRIAN MAY, GRADUATE INS A ASTRO PHYSICS FOUND TIME BETWEEN TOURING ADDS THE LEGENDARY GUITARIST OF QUEEN TO INDULGE HIS OTHER PASSION, STER I DON'T SAY -- STEREOOSCOPY.

HERE'S BRIAN MAY'S MESSAGE.

>> I CAN'T BE WITH YOU TODAY.

I WISH I COULD, I'M REHEARSING FOR A QUEEN TOUR, BUT MY HEART'S THERE WITH YOU AS THIS PRECIOUS SAMPLE IS RECOVERED.

HAPPY SAMPLE RETURN DAY.

>> THE HIGHLY BRAINY BRIAN SIGNING OFF THERE.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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