>>> JUST TODAY, KAMALA HARRIS UNVEILED A NEW ECONOMIC PLAN TO PROVIDE MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR BLACK MEN.

PART OF THE DEMOCRATS' BROADER EFFORT TO SECURE THE BLACK VOTE.

THEODORE R. JOHNSON IS AN EXPERT ON THIS ISSUE.

HIS NEW BOOK, "IF WE ARE BRAVE: ESSAYS FROM BLACK AMERICANA," IS WITH MICHEL MARTIN TO TAKE US THROUGH THOSE FIRST-HAND ACCOUNTS.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

THEODORE JOHNSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU ARE KIND OF A DIFFERENT ANIMAL WHEN IT COMES TO, YOU KNOW, SORT OF PUNDITRY, PER SE.

20-YEAR NAVY VETERAN, YOU ARE A COLUMNIST FOR MAJOR NEWS OUTLETS, AND YOU'RE AN AUTHOR.

SO, IT'S KIND OF HARD TO PIGEON HOLE YOU, JUST LIKE IT'S KIND OF HARD TO PIGEON HOLE THIS BOOK.

HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE IT?

>> THE BOOK IS AN ESSAY COLLECTION, AND SORT OF THE TRADITIONAL SENSE OF THE TERM, FOR BLACK WRITERS IN PARTICULAR.

I MEAN, IT'S PROBABLY TOO MUCH PRAISE, BUT I THINK OF IT IN THE SAME VEIN OF WRITING AS, LIKE, THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE AND THE ESSAYISTS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THAT WERE VERY RIGOROUS IN THEIR JOURNALISM, IN THEIR RESEARCH.

BUT HAD A COMMON TOUCH IN HOW THEY RELAYED VERY COMPLICATED AND COMPLEX ISSUES TO A JOURNAL PUBLIC.

SO, I -- I SORT OF THINK OF MY CAREER AS PROVIDING THE PERFECT BACKGROUND, OR SET OF LIFE EXPERIENCES, THAT ALLOW ME TO TACKLE BIG TOPICS IN ESSAY FORM, WHILE ALSO INCORPORATING THE VERY RIGOROUSLY RESEARCHED INSIGHTS THAT I HOPE TO BRING FORWARD IN THE WRITING.

>> I SEE IT AS REFLECTIONS ON WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN, IT'S REFLECTIONS ON DEMOCRACY, BUT FROM A VERY DISTINCTLY AFRICAN AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, PERSPECTIVE.

WHY DID YOU FEEL WE NEED TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH, SO, MOST OF IT IS BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE A FIGHT OVER THE IDENTITY OF THIS COUNTRY, AND THE PEOPLE THAT BELONG HERE.

SOME FOLKS WANT TO TAKE US BACK HUNDREDS OF YEARS, AND OTHERS SAY, WE'VE NOT REALIZED THE POTENTIAL OF THE COUNTRY.

SO, MAYBE WE SHOULD DO THE WORK TO GET TO THAT PLACE, TO ENGAGE WITH THE IDEA, THE IDENTITY, OUR HISTORY, AND MEDITATE ON, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELONG IN THIS COUNTRY?

SO, IT STRIKES TO TAKE BEING IDEAS, DEMOCRACY, POLICE BRUTALITY, RACISM, AND INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT STRUCTURAL RACISM OR THE NEED FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE IN THIS SYSTEM.

THE EXPERIENCE OF AMERICANS, WHITE, BLACK, ALL RACES, ETHNICITIES, ALL OF US ARE LIVING IN THE SAME SYSTEM THAT'S UNDERPERFORMING WHAT IT COULD BE.

>> ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS YOU DO, THOUGH, IN THE BOOK, YOU KIND OF COMPARE THE EXPERIENCE OF UNDERSTANDING YOUR AMERICAN-NESS, AND YOU COMPARE THAT IN YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH BEING A PERSON OF FAITH.

AND THEY YOU KIND OF DRAW THAT AS AN ANALOGY OF HOW WE KIND OF FALL IN AND OUT OF -- IN AND OUT OF LOVE, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, WITH THE DEMOCRATIC EXPERIMENT, WITH THE AMERICAN IDEA.

DO YOU WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, SO YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THE FIRST ESSAY, THE LEAD ESSAY IS ESSENTIALLY TED JOHNSON'S SERMON ON DEMOCRACY, AS DELIVERED BY THIS BLACK BOY FROM NORTH CAROLINA WHO GREW UP GOING TO CHURCH THREE, FOUR TIMES A WEEK.

AND SO, IT'S ALMOST LIKE, THIS IS MY CONVERSION STORY.

AND THE REASON THAT'S IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE DEMOCRACY'S LEGITIMACY AS A SYSTEM IS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH IN EVERY PERSON THAT PARTICIPATES.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE OUTCOMES IN THE DEMOCRACY ARE LEGITIMATE, IT RESULTS IN CATASTROPHE.

WE WERE ALL AROUND FOR JANUARY 6th, WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE LEGITIMACY OF INSTITUTIONS AND PROCESSES ARE QUESTIONED.

PEOPLE DIED.

SYSTEMS GET, YOU KNOW, SORT OF OVERTURNED, OR UNRAVELED.

AND SO, WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THE SYSTEM IS WORTH INVESTING IN, IF WE'RE GOING TO COMMIT TO THE WORK OF MAKING IT MORE INCLUSIVE AND TO THE WORK OF REFORMING IT.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY IS THE ANSWER, IT'S VERY HARD TO GET PEOPLE TO INVEST IN VOTING, TO INVEST IN -- IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM AND ITS OUTCOMES, TO SEE THOSE AS LEGITIMATE.

AND IF WE'RE COMMITTED TO BOTH THE COUNTRY AND THE PROCESS FOR IMPROVING THE COUNTRY, THEN OUTCOMES CAN BE BETTER, THAN IF WE DON'T BELIEVE IN THE COUNTRY AND BELIEVE THAT THE SYSTEM IS NO LONGER USEFUL, THEN WE'RE AT A DIFFERENT STARTING POINT, WHICH COULD, YOU KNOW, TURN VERY UGLY VERY QUICKLY.

>> WELL, I CAN MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT IT'S ALREADY TURNED VERY UGLY VERY QUICKLY, IF YOU CONSIDER THAT ON JANUARY 6th, PEOPLE DIED.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY LUCKY THAT MORE PEOPLE DIDN'T DIE.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE HURT, A LOT OF PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY OUR FIRST RESPONDERS, LOST THEIR CAREERS, IF NOT THEIR LIVES, BECAUSE THEY WERE SO BADLY INJURED, THEY COULDN'T WORK AGAIN.

>> IT'S UGLY.

BUT IN THE 1960s, A PRESIDENT WAS ASSASSINATED, AN ATTORNEY AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE WAS ASSASSINATED, MARTIN LUTHER KING, MALCOLM X, ASSASSINATED, HUNDREDS OF PROTESTS IN THE SUMMER OF '68.

THE VIETNAM WAR PROTESTS WHERE STUDENTS AT KENT STATE WERE KILLED.

SO IF WE THINK JANUARY 6th WAS BAD, OUR GRANDPARENTS WOULD SAY, CHILDREN, YOU HAVE NOT SEEN ANYTHING YET.

IT'S A WARNING IF WE DON'T HEED HISTORY, IF WE DON'T HEED THE LIFE EXPERIENCES OF THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE US, WE -- AS THE OLD SAYING GOES, WE'RE DOOMED TO REPEAT THESE THINGS, AND JANUARY 6th, INSTEAD OF BECOMING THIS TERRIBLE DAY FOLLOWING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, BECOMES THE BEGINNING OF A TERRIBLE DECADE, LIKE THE '60s, LIKE THE 1860s, AND WE'VE GOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO AVOID THAT OUTCOME, BUT ONLY IF WE GET AHEAD OF THE PROBLEM NOW.

>> I WANT TO READ SOMETHING FROM THE BOOK, YOU SAY, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR PLEA, YOUR DESIRE THAT PEOPLE ENGAGE IN THIS REIMAGINATION, AS YOU PUT IT.

YOU SAID, REIMAGINE NATION, HOWEVER, IS TRICKY BUSINESS.

IT ARISES FROM THE PREMISE THAT WHO WE ARE IS NO LONGER SUFFICIENT, OR IS DEEPLY FLAWED IN SOME WAY.

E GO, WHETHER PERSONAL OR NATION, DOES NOT LIKE CONFRONTING THE TRUTH.

IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE AND INVITES AN IDENTITY CRISIS.

WHEN A NATION AS LARGE AND DIVERSE AS THE UNITED STATES IS OVERDUE FOR AN REIMAGINATION, THOSE AT THE CENTER OF THE NARRATIVE ARE LIKELY TO FEEL THREATENED.

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE NATIONAL NARRATIVE WANT IN, BUT WHY SHOULD THE PEOPLE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, WHO SEE THEMSELVES AS THREATENED OR BEING DISPLACED OR NOT WANTING TO BE -- WHY SHOULD THEY PARTICIPATE IN THIS KIND OF REIMAGINATION THAT YOU TALK ABOUT?

>> WELL, IF THEY TRULY BELIEVE IN THE FOUNDING IDEALS OF THE COUNTRY, NOT LIP SERVICE STUFF, BUT IF THEY TRULY BELIEVE IN IT, THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

I THINK IT WAS SAID, IN THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN 1790, 6% OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WERE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE AND ONLY HALF DID.

THE STORY OF OUR DEMOCRACY IS THE STORY OF EXCLUDED PEOPLE SEEKING PARTICIPATION.

AND WHEN THEY ARE DENIED THAT PARTICIPATION, THEY ARE ALSO AMERICANS, AND AMERICANS DON'T TAKE LIGHTLY TO BE TOLD YOU'RE LESS THAN, YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE FREEDOM, IT'S JUST FOR THESE OTHER PEOPLE, YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE LIBERTY AND RIGHTS OR ACCESS TO DEMOCRACY, IT'S FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

SO, IF THEY DO NOT MAKE DEMOCRACY A MORE INVITING EXERCISE, IF THEY DO NOT MAKE THE COUNTRY MORE INCLUSIVE, THEY WILL HAVE TO CONTEND WITH THE PEOPLE THEY'VE EXCLUDED OUTSIDE OF DEMOCRACY.

WE'VE HAD A CIVIL WAR TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

WE'VE HAD A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.

PEOPLE WERE LYNCHED, TRYING TO GET A BETTER ANSWER OUT OF THIS QUESTION.

SUFFRAGISTS ABUSED AND BEATEN TRYING TO GET BETTER ANSWERS OUT OF THIS QUESTION.

BUT WHAT NEVER STOPS IS THE SORT OF SPIRIT OF -- OF PROGRESS.

THE SECOND PART OF THIS, WHAT SORT OF FOLLOWING FROM THE FIRST, WE'RE A NATION OF 340 MILLION PEOPLE, AND IF YOU THINK THAT DEMOCRACY IS ONLY FOR 70% OF THOSE 350 MILLION PEOPLE, YOU SQUANDER MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF TALENT AND CAPABILITIES OF YOUR POPULOUS.

COUNTRIES DO NOT THRIVE WHEN THEY SQUANDER THE THING THAT MAKES THEM SPECIAL, UNIQUE, WHICH IS TO SAY, THEIR PEOPLE.

SO, NOT ONLY WILL THOSE PEOPLE NOT STAND BY, BUT THOSE AT THE TOP THAT WANT A PROSPEROUS AMERICA OR WANT TO HOG THE BENEFITS OF THIS COUNTRY FOR THEMSELVES WILL FIND THERE'S LESS BENEFITS, LESS RESOURCES, LESS GOOD FEELINGS TO GO AROUND WHEN EXCLUSION IS YOUR POLITICS.

>> BUT WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY?

AND SEEM TO BELIEVE, WHETHER THROUGH FORCE, THROUGH VIOLENCE, THROUGH THE BALLOT BOX, THROUGH DOMINATION, SOME KIND OF WAY, THAT THEY ARE -- THAT THEY'RE NARROWING OF THE AMERICAN STORY IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO PREVAIL.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> YEAH, SO, THE FIRST THING IS, ON JANUARY 7th, JANUARY 8th, JANUARY 9th, A LOT OF THE PEOPLE SAYING THAT 2020 WAS AN UNDECIDED ELECTION OR FRAUDULENT ELECTION, ON JANUARY 7th, 8th, AND 9th, THEY WERE SAYING, HOW DARE DONALD TRUMP THIS IS BEYOND THE PALE, THIS IS TOO FAR.

AND WHAT THEY LEARNED WAS, YOU DON'T GET RE-ELECTED.

YOU DON'T HAVE A CHANCE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IF YOU HOLD DONALD TRUMP ACCOUNTABLE FOR JANUARY 6th.

AND SO, THEY CHANGED THE POSITIONS THEY HELD ON JANUARY 7th OUT OF POLITICAL EXPEDIENCE.

NOW, THIS IS -- THIS IS THE KIND OF CHARACTER THAT OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM INCENTIVIZES.

THAT'S A FAULT OF BOTH THE SYSTEM AND THOSE POLITICIANS, WHICH LEADS TO THE SECOND POINT, AND SORT OF THE -- ONE OF THE MAJOR ARGUMENTS IN THE BOOK, THIS IS WHY BLACK AMERICANS HAVE ALWAYS INSISTED ON A STRONG FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ENFORCEMENT OF CIVIL RIGHTS.

BECAUSE IF YOU LEAVE IT TO THE GOOD WILL OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED EVERY TIME.

WHEN THE FOLKS WHO FOUNDED THIS COUNTRY SAID, WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A REPUBLIC OR THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT STAFF THEM ARE GOING TO BE PATRIOTS, WHO ARE GOING TO PUT JUSTICE AND EQUALITY FIRST AND NOT PUT THEIR PARTISAN AND FACTION LEANINGS FIRST.

AND THEY WERE WRONG.

THEY WERE WRONG THEN AND THEY'RE WRONG TODAY.

>> SO, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE CURRENT SORT OF POLITICAL MOMENT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S INTERESTING THAT WE SEE, AND WE'LL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH WHETHER THIS SORT OF PATTERN HOLDS, BUT YOU DO SEE INCREASING NUMBERS OF AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN AND LATINO MEN SEEMING TO BE DRAWN TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND TO DONALD TRUMP IN PARTICULAR.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> YEAH, I -- I'VE GOT A FEW REASONS FOR THIS.

THE FIRST ONE IS, BETWEEN '68 AND 2004, REPUBLICANS AVERAGED 11% OR 12% OF THE BLACK VOTE IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, AND THEN BARACK OBAMA CAME ALONG, AND IN 2008, REPUBLICANS GET 4%.

IN 2012, THEY GET 6%.

ABOUT THE SAME, 6%, 7%, IN 2016, AND THEN 8% IN 2020.

SO, IN BETWEEN 2008 AND 2020, IT'S GONE FROM 4% TO 8%.

SO, IT'S DOUBLED.

THAT MAKES IT SEEM LIKE, WOW, REPUBLICANS ARE MAKING INROADS WHEN ACTUALLY BARACK OBAMA HAS LEFT THE STAGE.

SO, THAT'S ONE REASON WHY WE'RE SEEING A LITTLE BIT OF AN INCREASE.

BLACK REPUBLICANS WHO DIFFERENT WANT TO VOTE AGAINST THE BLACK GUY HAVE SORT OF RETURNED BACK TO THEIR VOTING HABITS PRE-OBAMA.

HERE'S A WRINKLE THAT I THINK IS NEW, IT ISN'T THE SAME FOLKS RETURNING.

IT'S YOUNGER FOLKS COMING, AND I THINK IT'S MOSTLY YOUNGER BLACK MEN.

AND THE QUESTION IS WHY?

SOME OF THAT IS BECAUSE TRUMP PRESENTS AS VERY HYPERHAS YULIN.

NOT IN HIS SORT OF APPEARANCE OR HIS ENERGY OR VIGOR, BUT HE PRESENTS AS UNTOUCHABLE.

THE MAN HAS 34 FELONY CONVICTIONS, AND MAY BE PRESIDENT-ELECT IN A MONTH.

THERE'S SOMETHING VERY HAS YULIN ABOUT DOING WHATEVER YOU WANT AND HAVING NO COME UP PANS, PAYING NO PENALTY FOR IT.

IF YOU TAKE YOUNG BLACK MEN WHO HAVE BEEN TOLD, THE POLICE ARE OUT TO GET YOU, THAT DEMOCRACY IS UNFAIR, THE SYSTEM IS UNFAIR, THIS IDEA THAT YOU CAN DO WHAT IT TAKES TO GET FORWARD AND NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, OR NO ONE'S COMING TO GET YOU, CAN BE APPEALING.

IT'S HYPERMASCULINE AND UNTOUCHABLE.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WATCH THIS.

I'M GEN X, THAT MEANS MY PARENTS WERE BORN DURING JIM CROW.

THAT MEANT IN MY GENERATION, YOUR GRANDPARENT WAS PROBABLY JIM CROW.

FOR GEN Z, IT'S A GENERATION REMOVED FROM THE SOUTH AND FROM THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

AND I BRING THIS UP, BECAUSE POLITICAL SCIENCE AROUND BLACK VOTING BEHAVIOR TALKS ABOUT THIS IDEA OF THAT, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, AND A LOT OF THAT STEMS FROM THIS SHARED COMMON EXPERIENCE THAT OUR GRANDPARENTS OR PARENTS HAD.

NOW THAT WE'RE REMOVED FROM THAT SHARED EXPERIENCE, THE IDEA THAT THAT SOLIDARITY WILL BE ENOUGH TO HOLD BLACK PEOPLE TOGETHER IN THE SAME PARTY AT A 89 90-10 CLIP IS OUTDATED.

>> THE OTHER THING THAT YOU HEAR IS SOME YOUNGER VOTERS JUST THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVEN'T DELIVERED.

AND THEY HAVEN'T DELIVERED ON, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST SORT OF TRUMP IN HIS IDIOSYNCRATIC, SORT OF INDIVIDUALISTIC WAY, HAS DELIVERED, OR, AT LEAST, HE LIKES TO TELL YOU THAT HE'S DELIVERED.

DOES THE FACT OF THE CHANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET HELP OR HURT IN ANY WAY?

DOES KAMALA HARRIS, AS THE NOMINEE, EVEN WITH THIS SHORTENED ELECTION PERIOD, DOES THAT CHANGE THAT DYNAMIC AT ALL?

>> YES.

100% IT CHANGED IT.

SO -- IF -- BLACK VOTERS SAYING, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY, THEY'RE NOT ASKING THAT OF REPUBLICANS.

THE PROMISE OF WHAT THEY WANT TO DO AROUND THE ECONOMY OR IMMIGRATION OR WHATEVER SOUNDS GOOD TO ME, SO, I'M GO TO TAKE THEM AT THEIR WORD OVER THE EVIDENCE FROM, SAY, A BIDEN PRESIDENCY, OR AN OBAMA PRESIDENCY.

BUT NOW YOU'RE VOTING NOT FOR TRUMP AGAINST BIDEN, BUT FOR TRUMP AGAINST AN AKA FROM HOWARD IN KAMALA HARRIS.

AND, AGAIN, EVEN WITH THE SORT OF SHIFTING -- SMALL REALIGNMENT HAPPENING IN BLACK AMERICA, YOU ARE STILL BLACK IN AMERICA.

AND IF YOU DECIDE TO VOTE AGAINST THE CANDIDATE, A BLACK CANDIDATE AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET, THAT PROBABLY 88% TO 90% OF BLACK FOLKS ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR, YOU'RE NOT JUST MAKING A POLITICAL DECISION, YOU'RE ALSO MAKING A SOCIAL AND CULTURAL KIND OF CHOICE.

AND THERE'S GREAT WORK OUT THERE, MY POLITICAL SCIENTISTS THAT SHOWS THERE'S A KIND OF SOCIAL CONSTRAINT THAT HAPPENS WHEN BLACK PEOPLE ARE RUNNING FOR OFFICE AMONG BLACK VOTERS.

AND YOU DON'T WANT TO BE THE DUDE THAT WALKS INTO THE BARBERSHOP TO SAY, I VOTED AGAINST KAMALA HARRIS FOR THIS DUDE WHO THINKS HAITIANS IN OHIO ARE EATING CATS AND DOGS.

>> IS PART OF THE ISSUE HERE THOUGH FOR BLACK PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CONTINUALLY DISAPPOINTED BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, IS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ISN'T PERCEIVED AS CONTINUING TO FIGHT THOSE FIGHTS?

OF VOTING RIGHTS, FOR EXAMPLE?

I JUST WONDER IF YOU THINK THAT'S PART OF THE CALCULUS.

>> MY SENSE IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

THE LATEST NUMBERS I'VE SEEN IS ABOUT 1 IN 5 BLACK VOTES IDENTIFY AS CONSERVATIVE, ABOUT 40%, 45% IDENTIFY AS MODERATE, AND THEN 1 OUT OF 4 IDENTIFY AS LIBERAL.

AND I THINK FOR A NUMBER OF BLACK VOTERS, AND WE SAW THIS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY IN 2020, THEY THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS GONE TOO FAR LEFT.

AND MAYBE ADDRESSING CONCERNS BEYOND RACE AND FEELING LIKE THEY'VE BEEN LEFT BEHIND, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY'RE THE PARTY'S MOST LOYAL BASE.

AND SO, IF WE LOOK AT THE PRIMARIES IN 2020, BIDEN LOSES IN IOWA, IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, BADLY LOSES.

IN NEVADA.

AND THEN SHOWS UP IN SOUTH CAROLINA, OLDER BLACK VOTERS, A LITTLE BIT MORE CONSECONSERVATIVE, AND WINS, AND THEY RESCUE HIS CAMPAIGN.

SAME THING BLACK VOTERS DID FOR BILL CLINTON IN '92.

IF THOSE ARE THE FOLKS THAT ARE PUTTING THESE DEMOCRATS INTO THE WHITE HOUSE, IF THEY THINK THAT THAT PRESIDENT IS SUDDENLY GOING TO LURCH FAR LEFT AND ACCOMPLISH A NUMBER OF VERY, VERY PROGRESSIVE IDEAS THAT THEY DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR IN THE PRIMARY, WHICH IS WHY THEY VOTED FOR THE MODERATE, OR EVEN THE ESTABLISHMENT CANDIDATE, THE PARTY HAS MISREAD BLACK VOTERS.

AND I THINK MAYBE PARTICULARLY IN THE RHETORIC MORE THAN IN THEIR POLICY PROPOSALS, THAT HAS HAPPENED.

SO, I THINK YOU'RE SEEING MORE OF A -- A MORE PRAGMATIC BLACK ELECTORATE REJECTING THE LEFTWARD LURCH OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN SOME CIRCLES, AND THE RIGHTWARD LURCH OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND ARE KIND OF LEFT TO SORT OF MAKE SENSE OF POLITICS, GIVEN THESE TWO REALITIES.

>> SO, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, I AM WONDERING OF WHO YOU WANT TO DISCOVER THIS BOOK?

WHO DO YOU WANT TO READ IT, AND WHO DO YOU WANT TO TAKE IT TO HEART?

>> SO, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

THIS IS, V AS MUCH FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO SORT OF, TO SAY, THIS IS THE CONVERSATION WE'VE HAD IN A MILLION PLACES, LET'S GET IT ON PAPER AND SORT OF REFLECT ON WHAT IT MEANS IN THIS MOMENT, AS IT IS FOR WHITE AUDIENCES WHO ONLY HEAR ABOUT RACE ON CABLE NEWS OR IN THEIR ECHO CHAMBERS OR IN THEIR SORT OF PREFERRED SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU KNOW, CURATED FEEDS ON, YOU KNOW, ON THESE DIFFERENT PLATFORMS.

THEY SHOULD READ THIS BOOK.

BECAUSE THIS IS HOW YOU UNDERSTAND RACISM IN AMERICA.

THIS IS HOW YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT BLACK PEOPLE SAY WHEN THEY SAY THE POLICE ARE RACIST, OR THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM IS THE REASON WHY THERE'S SUCH DISPARITY IN THE COUNTRY AND SEE IT PRESENTED IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T DEMONIZE THE COUNTRY AND DOESN'T MAKE BLACK PEOPLE VICTIMS IN THE NATION'S STORY ALONE.

>> TED JOHNSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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