>> NEXT WE TURN TO THE REMARKABLE LIFE OF CIVIL RIGHTS PIONEER W. E. B. DUBOIS, A SCHOLAR, JOURNALIST, ACTIVITY, FIRST BLACK MAN TO GET A Ph.

D. FROM HARVARD.

"W. E. B. DUBOIS: REBEL WITH A CAUSE".

>> I VERY EARLY GOT THE IDEA I WAS GOING TO PROVE TO THE WORLD THAT NEGROS ERE JUST LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.

>> MICHELLE MARTIN SITS DOWN WITH THE FILM'S AWARD WINNING DIRECTOR RITA COBURN.

THEY DISCUSS DUBOIS' GROUNDBREAKING WORK AND HIS LEGACY.

>> THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S AN HONOR TO TALK ABOUT W. E. B. DUBOIS.

>> SUCH A SEMINAL FIGURE OF POLITICAL ACTIVISM, THE ACADEMY, OF SOCIOLOGY, OF SO MANY DISCIPLINES.

AS A PATRON OF THE ARTS.

GIVE US THE SHORT VERSION.

HE WAS BORN IN A SMALL TOWN IN WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS, 1868, AFTER THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION WHICH ENDED SLAVERY FOR 3.

5 MILLION BLACK MEN AND WOMEN, BUT HIS FAMILY WAS NEVER ENSLAVED.

TELL ME THAT STORY, WHAT WERE THEY DOING THERE?

>> HE WAS BORN IN 1868, THAT'S THREE YEARS AFTER THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION.

HOWEVER BECAUSE HE WAS IN GREAT BARRINGTON, MASSACHUSETTS, THERE HAD NOT BEEN ENSLAVEMENT FOR SEVERAL GENERATIONS THERE.

SO HIS FAMILY WAS SOLIDLY PLACED THERE.

AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, NOT TO SAY THERE WASN'T RACISM, BUT WHITES AND BLACKS HAD BEEN LIVING WITH ONE ANOTHER FOR AT LEAST A CENTURY BY THAT TIME.

WHAT HE DID WAS HE WAS SUCH A STUDENT THAT HIS MOTHER IN PARTICULAR SEWED INTO HIM THAT THAT WAS THE HOPE, THE HOPE WAS EDUCATION.

DUBOIS HAS A PREP SCHOOL EDUCATION, AND IT WAS FAR MORE CLASSICAL IN THAT TIME PERIOD.

PRETTY MUCH BASED ON EUROPEAN EDUCATION AT THE TIME.

WHAT THEY FOUND WAS AS MUCH AS THEY POURED IN, HE WAS ABLE TO RECEIVE.

AND SO I THINK HIS INTELLECT, AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS NOT IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH, GAVE HIM THAT EXPANSE.

HE BECAME THE VALEDICTORIAN OF HIS CLASS.

HE WAS EXCEPTIONAL.

>> HE GOES TO FISK FOR HIS UNDERGRADUATE EDUCATION.

HE THEN EVENTUALLY DOES GET TO HARVARD FOR HIS GRADUATE STUDIES.

THEY MAKE HIM WHAT, START OVER AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH HE'S TOP OF HIS CLASS AT FISK BECAUSE WHAT, THEY DECIDED A BLACK SCHOOL WASN'T AT THE SAME LEVEL?

SO HOW DOES IT DO AT HARVARD?

>> YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

HE GOES TO FISK AND HE LOVES FISK.

HE FINDS HIMSELF AS A PERSON THERE, AS A BLACK PERSON.

HE'S WITH OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE HIMSELF.

HE HASN'T BEEN IN A GROUP OF EDUCATED BLACKS BEFORE.

HE ALSO BECOMES VERY ENTRENCHED IN THE SPIRITUALS FROM THE FIFTH JUBILEE SINGERS.

HE FEELS SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND COINED IT THE SORROW SOUNDS.

HE COMES INTO HIS OWN AT FISK.

HE WANTS STILL TO GO TO HARVARD, AND BY THE TIME HE'S ABLE TO GET THE MONEY AND GET TO HARVARD, HE IS AN UNDERGRAD.

HE LIKES HARVARD, LOVES THE MASSACHUSETTS SOCIAL GROUP OF BLACKS HE'S MET, BUT DOESN'T FEEL THAT MUCH A PART OF THEM ACADEMICALLY.

IT'S STILL A VERY RACIST PLACE FOR HIM.

SO HE IS ABLE TO PETITION TO GO TO BERLIN, WHICH IS WHERE SOCIOLOGY IS REALLY STARTING TO BEGIN, AND AS HE GETS THERE, HE'S ABLE TO FIND WHAT HE WANTS TO DO FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE.

AND ONCE HE DOES THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, HE'S NOT ABLE TO GRADUATE THERE BECAUSE HIS RESIDENCY WAS FOR TWO YEARS AND IT WOULD BE THREE YEARS FOR HIM TO GET HIS Ph.

D. THERE.

SO HE COMES BACK TO HARVARD AND THAT'S WHERE HE GETS HIS Ph.

D. .

>> BUT HE'S THE FIRST --DO I HAVE THIS RIGHT?

HE'S THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN TO GET A Ph.

D. FROM HARVARD?

>> THE FIRST FOIRN TO AFRICAN AMERICAN TO GET A Ph.

D. FROM HARVARD.

>> AND TOOK THE TECHNIQUES TO PHILADELPHIA, HIS FIRST JOB AFTER HIS STUDIES, HIRED TO DO A STUDY OF THE BLACK POPULATION OF PHILADELPHIA.

WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHY THAT WAS A UNIQUE ANALYSIS AT THE TIME.

>> THE PHILADELPHIA NEGRO IS CITED AS THE FIRST EMPIRICAL STUDY IN SOCIOLOGY OF A CLASS AND A GROUP.

HE GOES TO THE SEVENTH WARD AND DECIDES HE'S GOING TO LIVE IN THE SEVENTH WARD.

SO HE AND NINA GOMER, HE'S MARRIED, HIS FIRST JOB WAS WILBUR FORREST, BUT DOING MATH AND SCIENCE AND HE WANTED TO DO SOCIOLOGY.

THIS STUDY COMES UP, HE GOES.

HE'S NOT GIVEN A PROFESSORSHIP, JUST THERE TO DO THE RESEARCH AND STUDY.

BASICALLY WHAT PHILADELPHIA IS SAYING IS THAT WE'RE A BORDER CITY, PRETTY MUCH.

WE'RE GETTING SO MANY BLACK PEOPLE HERE, AND THESE PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY RUINING OUR ECONOMY, THEY'RE LIVING IN SLUM CONDITIONS, THEY'RE -- IT MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM.

THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE.

AND HE DOES THE STUDY AND TURNS THAT ON ITS HEAD.

AND SAYS IT'S NOT THEM, IT'S THE WAY THEY'RE BEING TREATED IN THE SOCIETY.

IF THEY HAVE TO WALK THESE MANY MILES TO GO TO SCHOOL, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL.

IF BLACK WOMEN CAN'T GET JOBS, THEN THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HELP THEIR FAMILIES.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS A SYSTEM THAT IS FIGHTING AGAINST PEOPLE AS OPPOSED TO PEOPLE THAT ARE FIGHTING YOU.

THEY ARE DOING THE BEST THAT THEY CAN.

IF THEY HAVE TO LIVE IN CRAMPED HOUSING, THEY'RE GOING TO COME OUT IN THE SUMMER AND HANG OUT ON THE STREET.

IF THEY CAN'T MAKE MONEY, THEY'RE GOING TO DO THINGS THEY WOULDN'T NORMALLY DO IF THEY HAD A FAIR CHANCE.

HE DOES THAT ALL WITH DATA, CHARTS AND GRAPHS.

AT THIS POINT HE'S STILL BENT ON THE SCIENCE OF THE MATTER.

IF I CAN SHOW YOU SCIENTIFICALLY WHAT IS WRONG, YOU AS A SOCIETY, AS A COMMUNITY, WILL ACCEPT US.

AND THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

?

>> HE MOVES FROM PHILADELPHIA TO ATLANTA TO BECOME A PROFESSOR AT A UNIVERSITY THERE.

SEMINAL MOMENT.

HE QUICKLY GETS A REALITY CHECK ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE IN A BLACK MAN IN THE SOUTH.

WILL YOU TELL US WHAT IT WAS?

>> WHEN DUBOIS GOES INTO THE DEEP SOUTH, GOES INTO ATLANTA, HE'S AT ATLANTA UNIVERSITY, AND THAT CAMPUS KIND OF SITS ON A HILL AWAY FROM SOME OF THE RACISM IN THE TOWN, BUT IT'S ALSO AN INTEGRATED UNIVERSITY.

MOST OF THESE UNIVERSITIES AT THE TIME HAD A LOT OF WHITES THAT HAD GONE TO DARTMOUTH AND PRINCETON TEACHING THERE.

THEY WERE TEACHING ALONGSIDE BLACKS.

SO HE IS ATLANTA, AND AT THE SAME TIME, HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HOW BAD THE SOUTH REALLY IS.

UNTIL IN 1899, SAM HOSE IS MURDER, LYNCHED IN A BRUTAL WAY.

THIS IS HIS FIRST RECKONING WITH LYNCHING.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT HE'S SEEN, BEEN A PART OF.

AND THE HORROR OF THAT MOMENT, THEY BURN HIS BODY, CUT OFF HIS FINGERS AND GENITALS.

IT'S A HORRIFIC MOMENT FOR HIM.

AND IT SPEAKS TO SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY AT THAT TIME.

AND HE IS SO APPALLED BY IT, HE'S THINKING I'M GOING TO TAKE A LETTER TO THE ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION.

AND EN ROUTE, HE'S TOLD THAT SAM HOSE'S FINGERS AND TOES ARE IN THE WINDOW OF THE MEAT MARKET.

AT THAT POINT HE TURNS AROUND, HE DECIDES SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

I MUST NOW TELL PEOPLE WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.

AND HE DECIDES THAT WHAT HE'S REALLY GOING TO DO IS BECOME A JOURNALIST.

THAT'S WHAT HE DECIDES HE'S GOING TO DO.

HE IS GOING TO EVENTUALLY BE A PERSON WHO IS THE EDITOR OF THE CRISIS MAGAZINE.

HE'S GOING TO BEGIN TO DO STUDIES AND WRITE.

>> THE TITLE WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

THE CRISIS OF THE COLOR LINE WAS THE CRISIS OF AMERICA.

>> NOT ONLY IS HE GOING TO BECOME A SOCIAL ACTIVIST, BUT HE UNDERSTANDS THE POWER OF THE PRESS.

>> HE INSISTED THAT I HAVE ALL EDITORIAL PRIVILEGE AND POWER.

NOBODY WILL DICTATE TO ME WHAT I CAN SAY.

>> AND I THINK WHAT IS BEAUTIFUL ABOUT THIS IS THAT WE HAVE FREDERICK DOUGLASS BEING THE GREAT ORATOR, BUT YOU COULD ONLY REACH SO MANY PEOPLE AT A TIME.

IT'S THIS POINT IN THE COUNTRY THAT PRINT TAKES OFF.

IT'S THE INTERNET OF THE TIME PERIOD.

>> TELL US ABOUT "THE SOULS OF BLACK FOLK," THE ONE PIECE ABOUT DUBOIS THAT PEOPLE KNOW.

TELL US WHERE THE IDEA OF THE BOOK CAME FROM AND WHAT'S THE CORE OF IT?

>> IN 1899, SAM HOSE GETS LYNCHED.

IT CHANGES HIM TO A PERSON WHO IS NOW GOING TO FIGHT FOR HIS PEOPLE USING WORDS, USING JOURNALISM, MAKING SURE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING.

THAT'S 1899.

1900, HE GOES TO THE PARIS EXPOSITION.

HE TAKES PHOTOGRAPHS THAT SHOW THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE LIVING LIVES BEYOND DIGGING THEIR WAY OUT OF JIM CROW.

THEY'RE LIVING LIVES WITH PURPOSE, MEANING.

THEY HAVE BUSINESSES, THEY'RE STUDYING THE ARTS.

HE WANTS PEOPLE TO SEE A BROADER SCOPE OF BLACK PEOPLE.

HE COMES BACK DURING THAT SAME TIME PERIOD.

HIS SON, BURKHARDT, DIES.

HE'S LESS THAN 2 YEARS OLD AND DIES BECAUSE NO WHITE DOCTORS WILL TREAT HIM.

SO HE'S SEEING SAM HOSE DIE IN 1899, HE'S SEEING HIS SON DIE.

AT THAT POINT, HE COMES BACK AND HE SITS DOWN, AND HE WANTS TO WRITE A BOOK THAT TELLS PEOPLE THAT WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

THAT WE HAVE SOULS, THAT WE HURT.

THAT WE DO ART.

THAT WE HAVE PLEASURES.

THAT WE'RE PEOPLE.

"THE SOULS OF BLACK FOLKS" IS PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL AND NATIONAL LETTERS OF THIS COUNTRY.

IT'S TAUGHT IN UNIVERSITIES AND HAS BEEN SINCE ITS PUBLICATION IN 1903.

>> HE OPENS UP WITH THIS CONCEPT THAT HAS THREE PARTS.

DOUBLE CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> IT'S A PECULIAR SENSATION, THIS DOUBLE CONSCIOUSNESS, THE SENSE OF ALWAYS LOOKING AT ONESELF THROUGH THE EYES OF OTHERS, OF MEASURING ONE'S SOUL BY THE TAPE OF A WORLD THAT LOOKS ON IN AMUSED CONTEMPT AND PITY.

>> TWONESS.

>> ONE EVER FEELS HIS TWONESS.

AN AMERICAN, A NEGRO.

TWO SOULS, TWO THOUGHTS, TWO UNRECONCILED STRIVINGS, TWO WARRING IDEALS IN ONE DARK BODY.

WHOSE DOGGED STRENGTH ALONE KEEPS IT FROM BEING TORN ASUNDER?

ASUNDER.

>> THEN HE SAYS WE LIVE BEYOND THE EIL.

AT SOME POINT WILL YOU LET ME OUT, LET ME BE FREE?

>> I THINK HEARING YOU DESCRIBE IT, HOW CONTEMPORARY IT REMAINS, THIS IDEA OF BEING AT ONCE YOUR OWN PERSON BUT BEING THE OBJECT OF THE GAZE OF THE OTHER, CONSTANTLY SEEN AS THE OTHER.

THESE ARE THOUGHTS THAT PEOPLE ARE HAVING TODAY?

AS .

>> AS I WORKED ON THE DOCUMENTARY, THERE WERE TIMES I WOULD READ SOMETHING HE WROTE, GET UP FROM MY DESK, WALK OUT THE FRONT DOOR, WALK AROUND THE BLOCK.

I HAD NO PLACE TO PUT IT, YET WHAT I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY IS THIS STILL HAPPENING.

WHEN WE WERE GOING TO LEARN THE LESSON AS A COUNTRY TO COME TOGETHER?

I THINK IT'S VERY DISCONCERTING THAT WHAT HIS WORK WAS --HIS WORK FOR THE 13th, 14th AND 15th AMENDMENT, THE IDEA THAT WE NEEDED THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

AND WHERE ARE WE NOW?

LOOK AT MEMPHIS, WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, AND WE SEE THAT HE'S STILL SPEAKING AND WE'RE STILL DEALING WITH A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM OF BEING ACCEPTED FULLY IN THIS SOCIETY.

>> TWO MORE THINGS WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT.

FACT THAT HE HAD BEEF WITH BOOKER T. WASHINGTON.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK SOME PEOPLE MAY KNOW ABOUT.

THE TWO OF THEM REPRESENT DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES OF THE PATH FORWARD THAT WAS IDEAL FOR BLACK FOLKS.

COULD YOU BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN?

>> W. E. B. DUBOIS AND BOOKER T. WASHINGTON, IT'S A STORY IN WHICH YOU HAVE THE UP-AND-COMING AND THE CURRENT PERSON THAT HAS KIND OF BEEN GRANDFATHERED INTO THE SOCIETY.

BOOKER T. WASHINGTON WAS THE MOST POWERFUL BLACK MAN IN AMERICA DURING THAT TIME PERIOD.

AND WHAT HAPPENS IS, W. E. B. DUBOIS IS A DIFFERENT SORT.

HE DIDN'T GROW UP IN SLAVERY.

WASHINGTON WAS A SLAVE UNTIL HE WAS 6 YEARS OLD.

HE HAD A VERY LIMITED VIEW OF WHAT WE COULD POSSIBLY DO.

THAT MAYBE WE COULD GAIN THE RIGHTS TO BE GOOD WORKERS.

MAYBE WE WOULD FIND OUR WAY THAT WAY.

DUBOIS SAID NO, WE NEED THE RIGHT TO VOTE, WE NEED WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

WE NEED TO HAVE AN AGENCY ABOUT OURSELVES.

SO HIS SANDPAPER RELATIONSHIP WITH BOOKER T. WASHINGTON STARTED WITH HIM RESPECTING HIM AND THEN SAYING, I'M SORRY, I HAVE TO PART COMPANY BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE NEED AT THIS POINT.

THAT'S WHY I CALL HIM A REBEL.

HE TOOK ON SEVEN PRESIDENTS, BOOKER T. WASHINGTON, MARCUS GARVEY.

IF HE DID NOT AGREE, HE DID NOT AGREE.

AND HE DID NOT AGREE WITH BOOKER T. WASHINGTON SAYING WE WOULD BE THE WORKERS OF THE SOUTH.

HE REALLY FELT IT WAS TIME TO HAVE THE 13th, 14th AND 15th AMENDMENTS REALIZED.

>> HIS LIFE CAME TO A CLOSE IN GHANA BECAUSE TOWARD THE END OF HIS LIFE, HE REALLY DID BECOME DISCOURAGED AND FEEL THAT BLACK PEOPLE WOULD NEVER BE FULLY ACCEPTED IN THE UNITED STATES, HAVE A FULL FLOURISHING.

MOVED TO GHANA, AND THAT'S WHERE HE DIED.

OF COURSE HIS PASSPORT WAS REVOKED AT ONE POINT, PERSONA NON GRATA BECAUSE HE WAS ATTRACTED TO THE SOCIALIST MOVEMENT AND COMMUNIST PARTY BECAUSE HE FELT THEY WERE MORE INTERESTED IN EQUAL RIGHTS.

TELL US ABOUT IT.

>> BOTH OF HIS CHILDREN HAVE DIED, HIS 90-SOMETHING YEARS OLD, AND HE'S BEEN ARRESTED, HANDCUFFED AND ACCUSED OF BEING AGAINST AMERICA.

BEING A COMMUNIST.

I THINK IT'S A FLICK OF THE NOSE WHEN HE DECIDES TO JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY ON THE SAME DAY THAT HE DECIDES TO TAKE A --DECIDES TO TAKE A FLIGHT TO GHANA.

AND KWAME IS NOW BUILDING A COUNTRY.

THAT IDEA OF FREEDOM FOR AN AFRICAN COUNTRY FROM BEING COLONIZED IS VERY ATTRACTIVE TO HIM.

AND THEY ROLL OUT THE RED CARPET FOR HIM, GIVE HIM A WONDERFUL HOME.

AND HE LIVES THREE YEARS THERE BEFORE HE PASSES.

>> RITA COBURN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> FASCINATING.

THE DOCUMENTARY WILL BE PREMIERING TOMORROW NIGHT ON PBS AMERICAN MASTERS.

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