the end of President Trump's friendship with Elon Musk was never really a question of if but when and now we know the answer except maybe we don't for all we know they could be back together before summer meanwhile in the real world Russia's war against Ukraine grows more dire iran gets closer to nuclear breakout israel slides further toward crisis and at home the rule of law is in real danger next this is Washington Week with the Atlantic corporate funding provided by Consumer Cellular additional funding is provided by Coup and Patricia Euan through the Euan Foundation committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities sandra and Carl Delay Magnus Rose Hershel and Andy Shrieves Robert and Susan Rosenbomb the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you thank you once again from the David M rubenstein studio at Weta in Washington editor-inchief of The Atlantic and moderator Jeffrey Goldberg good evening and welcome to Washington Week i want everyone to know that I take the Trump Musk breakup drama seriously in part because Donald Trump gave his former best friend Elon Musk access to enormous amounts of secret government data and there's no predicting what Musk could do with it but the world at large is in a state of seemingly permanent tumult and so it's a good time for a general checkup my guest tonight is Thomas Freriedman a three-time Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist and foreign affairs columnist for the New York Times tom thanks for coming in for our seemingly annual annual checkup um the uh I I I want to ask you about this Elon Musk uh business um and maybe we can put it into some serious context before I before we we jump to that I want to read something that uh my colleague Charlie Warzel writing in the Atlantic this morning um had to say uh the sun rises every morning spring turns to summer water is wet Donald Trump and Elon Musk's relationship has ended with a post about Jeffrey Epstein and then of course you know he he tweeted "These guys really do escalate quickly."

Um uh Trump Musk tweeted "Time to drop the really big bomb real Donald Trump is in the Epstein files that is the real reason they have not been made public have a nice day DJT um so put this into some kind of context that makes sense for ordinary people what is going on here well I I confess Jeff on the way over I thought you'd ask me about this and um the first thing that popped into my mind was the Iran Iraq war what did we say about the Iran Iraq war if only both sides could lose okay so uh there's no hero in this story um what it really is is the latest manifestation to me of the central truth of the Trump 2 administration trump one was surrounded by buffers trump 2 was surrounded by amplifiers and therefore stuff that used to begin at the Mara Largo bar and then get muffled in the Oval Office now goes from the Mara Larago bar right to the Oval Office right to you and me and whether it's what he feels about you know Musk or his role he wants him in the government but to me the whole must phenomenon is part of a much deeper and more disturbing phenomena from an American citizen point of view which is nothing here is modeled nothing here is stress tested everything is a riff the country is being run like the Trump organization today not like the United States of America and so as a result of that Jeeoff there's no second order thinking all right what's second order thinking i'm going to put on tariffs okay uh 10% across the board including Canada and Mexico even though I'm violating an agreement I signed with them when I was president last time uh second order thinking is oh my god you mean the Ford F150 only onethird of its parts are made in America um and the other two-thirds now are going to be tariffed i will bet any amount of money no one told him that and that's true now of everything and so you know for the first trimester of this administration you think the first three months all of this was kind of entertaining but now he's running up against a wall it turns out he can't solve the Russia Ukraine war overnight turns out tariff wars aren't easy to win uh turns out you know Musk is not going to you know do the revolution in the government form turns out courts sometimes don't like what you do exactly and so I think the second you know uh three months are going to get very interesting as he runs into this reality and I I don't know where it's going to go but I it it leaves me disqu that's interesting i was think as you were saying this I was thinking about John Kelly General John Kelly being uh and along with General Mattis and and others uh being those buffers or filters uh there's literally no one in the White House or in the whole system who does anything but amplify is that fair to say yeah I mean I I just don't Treasury Secretary I I I just don't see it you I mean yeah you hear these stories that the Treasury Secretary had to wait you know for um uh one of the other you know economic guys Peter Navaro to be out of the room for him to come in to try to change the tariffs this is crazy stuff now I happen to be in China twice in the last six months i've watched a lot of this from China actually and and when you see it from China I mean they say a couple things one is you know we are never going to put our president in a situation like Zalinsky in the Oval Office where he can be embarrassed number one the second thing they say Jeff is that this isn't cute we just saw Donald Trump tear up a trade agreement that Donald Trump made with America's two closest neighbors and allies Canada and Mexico what is the value therefore of a trade agreement with him now and um you know the Chinese uh uh these are these are you like them or hate them these are serious people you know and they are not spontaneous no exactly so when Trump put the 147 um 44% tariff on them they said "Uh you talking to me you talking to me do you realize that we control 90% of the rare earths that make the magnets that go in every car you make do you realize that?"

Which he didn't which is why Ford and GM and Stalantis had to announce this week we may actually have to uh curb some production because we're running out of Chinese magnets right stay stay with uh stay with this Musk question for a minute and and and this this this this issue of Musk as a as a radical isotope in a kind of way he's been given access to government secrets across the board in order to cut government agencies through the Doge operation um that seems like an operational security nightmare if he goes rogue surprising to you i mean how h where does this where does this relationship go can they bring it back from the brink is there anybody who's trying to bring it back from the brink or is this just more chaos well you know I think the best way to understand this is not with the analogy of political science but World Wrestling Federation right and and those uh uh in World Wrestling Federation there are breakups and comeback and new teams and and and whatnot i I put this all in the area of entertainment you know not in in something ser we're dealing with two extremely unstable characters but what really is is more important is what's the wider world audience saying what's the wider world audience saying they're saying you know for for all of our lifetime Jeff sort of post-war America if I had an extra dollar and I'm a foreigner I'm going to put it in America if I have a extra you know brain power and and a and a brainy person I'm going to study in America and if I have a little extra dollop of trust I'm going to trust America now you take all three of those things away and you end up with a a very different relationship between America and the world okay so I have to ask you and by the way it's interesting right miami is Miami because it's a safe place for people money harvard is or was Harvard because people want to come from around the world and and so on and the United Nations is headquartered in New York you know you know I mean everybody for for a reason we were the we were the we wrote the the rules of the road for the post-war international order so the question is you're an ally or an adversary and you're looking at at at this uh clown show by the way on the weekend that marks the 81st anniversary of D-Day noting just for the record um you you put yourselves in the shoes of an ally and adversary are you thinking that this is a midlife crisis America's having um a nervous breakdown or is this some kind of weird terminal illness um you know I don't know which all I know is I'm completely disoriented if I'm an ally and I'm completely disoriented if I'm the foreign affairs columnist for the New York Times because I've never covered this world and you know um uh our friend you know Fred Zakari wrote a book um uh uh 15 years ago or so called the postamerican world and Freed's book was really about a change in relative power right you know uh between that there'll be the rise of Brazil and India and other countries so we won't have as much power as we had before what really if if I were writing a book today uh Jeff would be called the post America world okay that's what I'm really worried about because America stood for some things it stood for universal values uh it stood for stability it stood for the rule of law it was a loyal ally we were always against the dictator versus the people seeking freedom what really worries me that at the end of my you know career basically I'm I'm dealing with the post America world the America I grew up and loved and was devoted to and as someone who lived abroad like you have know how important that America is to the whole world american optimism and stability makes the world go around you you take us out of the equation it's not like anybody else comes in i'm sorry you have you have a no superpower world right you know right but but come back to this is this do you think that this instability that we're experiencing emotional political all the instabilities that we're experiencing could it be temporary or is this can we not come back reputationally to start well the thing I'm worried about most is that and it may seem like a simple thing but you know uh Donald Trump came in and he told all the Democrats on the board of the Kennedy Center you're gone now traditionally every president sort of left the other party's people there and then he put in his people so when you enter into a kind of zero sum politics now in America when you fire the head of the an NASA uh after you appointed him because he made a donation a tiny don donation to a Democrat um you're into a kind of politics that I grew up with in the Middle East what was that rule or die okay you're either in power or you're it's zero sum okay i'm on top or I'm in and and so there's a book about African dictators called It's Our Turn to Eat you know and we're just going to eat everything so then no no if you're a Democrat and and guess what we do have God willing if we still have elections rotations in power do they come in now and treat all the Republicans in these traditional bipartisan forum you know the same way and if that happens we're really off to the races then the whole thing just starts to What country does that remind you of that vision you know you you you you I mean so many dictatorships just in general that I' I've I've covered over the years that's what you come in you wipe out all the other guys people well that's not how we do things in this country right right let's talk about a country that's not democratic for a second um you know the the I I want you to watch this it's the latest analysis by President Trump of the current state of play uh in in Russia's war against Ukraine and it's he's talking about Putin here he got hit he's been doing hitting so I understand it but he got hit hard and I don't think he's playing games i said "Uh President maybe you're going to have to keep fighting and suffering a lot because both sides are suffering before you pull them apart before they're able to be pulled apart."

But it's a pretty known uh analogy you you have two kids they fight fight fight sometimes you let them fight for a little while you see it in hockey you see it in sports not to Henry Kissinger but he's trying to impose his own real politique understanding of what is he misunderstanding from your perspective Jeff do you know how flatout crazy that is i mean that's like saying well you know I mean Hitler and Poland they fight they fight they come back you know what I mean um Trump came in and said I can end this war all right um uh there's one way to end this war you say to Vladimir Putin um if you don't stop the war um uh and and we agree to the ceasefire terms I dictate we are bringing Ukraine into NATO in 30 days which part of that sentence don't you understand now you want to mess with me test me that's how you end this war what you just heard of Donald Trump that sounded like a commentator on Fox TV he's not that commentator he's president of United States well he hit him and he hit them well he hit this guy invaded a country he's basically tried to rape a country that's what Putin did okay and the Ukrainians with incredible bravery stood up and defended basically the Western Alliance on something that's very important because if Ukraine were able to join the European Union Jeff then you have a Europe that's really whole and free that's actually a big deal for Europe and for us and this guy's talking about it like it's some schoolyard fight and they're morally equal it's nuts and it's it's disgusting right is there any issue from a foreign affairs columnist perspective is there any issue in which Trump is not transactional have you ever seen Have you ever seen a sign of um what we would think of as in a bipartisan way American idealism out of Trump um none comes to mind what I would say I where I thought you might be going is um uh you know some things are also true even if Donald Trump believes them and by the way his transactionalism sometimes can also be an advantage for instance I'm glad he's sitting down with the Iranians let's see what you got i'm glad he told the Syrian president um uh I'm going to give you a reputation to live up to i didn't mind him talking directly to Hamas if I can get the hostages out so there is that transactional side of him that I think could be an advantage but if not grounded in any moral you know framework of what we stand for as a country and what we've always stood for um if it's just a kind of free floating thing it it becomes very very dangerous yeah in in his non-sophisticated analysis of the current state of play uh in Russian and Ukraine uh he didn't really talk about the drone attack that Ukraine launched on Russian aerial assets deep in inside Russia does that change this war um you know you know Jeeoff I'd say two things and again it's part of the craziness of this moment let's start at 30,000 ft and then come down to the battlefield at 30,000 feet you and I are having this discussion on the eve of the greatest technological revolution in human history we are very close to uh birthing a new species not a new machine a new artificially intelligent species um and it's going to be with us under some sometime while Trump is president it is not going to change one thing it's going to change everything we are not talking about that at all so that's I would say number one under that technological revolution um and you know one of the things they say about AI it'll actually be mankind's last invention because once we invent that it will invent everything else that's going to be a big deal under that though we're seeing a revolution in military affairs basically Ukraine um spent $20,000 to to knock out you know uh $20 million planes $20,000 that was probably because they couldn't get Costco online you know from Kiev and they had to buy them from Amazon you know um so the the the asymmetric warfare world that we're entering now um wow i mean if you're the US Navy and you're sitting with 12 aircraft carriers and you just recovered from the fact that the Houthis you know you lost an FA Hornet cuz you had to swerve your aircraft carrier and the and the plane fell off the back because you were getting out of way of not not a sterling moment in naval history because you're avoiding a Hooty missile a bunch of guys in flip-flops basically um in a country that's bas water starved the asymmetry we're going to be dealing with right now um uh I think we have we these these events are really disturbing and and going to require a huge revolution in how we think about military as I'm listening to you about AI AGI and and drone warfare I I'm just thinking that the the the preoccupation this weekend in America is the emotionally fearal relationship between this ketamine taking billionaire and our reality TV star president and it's like there there's something that's so deeply unserious about Yeah and I think I think it's been true of our country that basically everything became politics um and so we don't have just ESPN now we have PSBN you know sort of politics sports network right and it's it's it's a testament to the the underlying strength of our country Jeff that our economy goes on we still invent amazing stuff and we we think we can afford this and and you know what Jeff we we can't afford it until we can right let me pivot uh finally toward the Middle East um and and ask you this and and you know I've read your recent columns on this subject you're a severe critic of Benjamin Netanyahu the Israeli prime minister and the way he's conducted this war and of Hamas which is No no no and I want and I want to get there but what I don't understand from reading you is this so Hamas and its allies seek the annihilation of Israel they state that it's not a secret yeah um how does Israel end the war without totally defeating Hamas in other words In other words is it I understand the criticisms but h how do they how do they coexist in a with a neighbor who won't allow coexistence um they don't um I'm all for Israel completely defeating Hamas militarily uh what I am not for are the three alternative choices that u Israel had after that defeat that Netanyahu refuses to make one choice is we defeat them and we Israel the Jewish state occupy Gaza forever that will be the moral and economic end of Israel another choice is we just leave and we turn it into Mogadishu that will also be terrible for Israel the third choice the one I favor is you create an Arab international peacekeeping force in partnership with the Palestinian Authority and over time you build an alternative to Hamas i'm what my criticism of Netanyahu is not fighting Hamas um not even crushing Hamas it's not creating any alternative Palestinian structure and therefore leaving the Jewish people with the choice Jeff of permanently occupying Gaza or having Mogadishu there and permanently occupying Gaja we know what that's going to do that's going to create a world where your grandchildren and mine are going to grow up in a world where they will learn what it is to be Jewish in a world where the Jewish state is a pariah and that is a disaster and that's what I'm fighting but it there is a double standard obviously in in the world um when it comes to judging Israel's behavior um but I guess you're just saying that you have to live with that that's the world as it is that's the world as it is um you quoted a hood Oldm merit the former prime minister of of Israel a center-right prime minister saying that Israel is committing war crimes and this is why he needs the the war to start do you agree that Israel is committing war crimes you know I have not entered into that whole linguistic fight because my position has been from the very beginning I'm here to do one thing figure out how to end this thing you know I'm old Jeff 71 i covered the Hama massacre so chhatila the American embassy bombing i've covered all of them okay and I said to myself I'm not going to be the scorekeeper of this i'm focused on one thing not who shot who who did the worst thing to the because they all do terrible things at different times i want to figure out how to end it and that's where I put all my energy from the very very beginning and and my if you've read my stuff on Hamas it's the same thing what is Hamas's position today very simple we want a ceasefire and we want Israel out of Gaza oh really what did you have on October 6th before this war started that's what you had so you fought this whole war you allowed 40 50,000 people to be killed to get you back to where you started shame on you but I can't you know control them i can't figure them out all I know I am I I do believe that if we want to see a Jewish and democratic Israel that's what I do care about palestinians have to figure that out you've got to find a way to get out of Gaza in a way that will create also in partnership with the different Palestinian authorities let me ask you one last question because you're an expert on this for many decades several decades many sounds too dire uh what does Netanyahu not understand about American politics and about American Jewish politics well I think Netanyahu is shocked by what's going on here because Trump Netanyao always could go around any American president and now he can't because he's looking for the Republican base she's pulling that lever and it comes off in kind of looks like a little bit of a sucker thinking that Joe Biden was bad for Israel exactly you know it turns out there are other worse things right and what about um what does he need to understand about American Jews you know I I think what he doesn't understand about American Jews is that you know they're ready to be with him they want Israel that's successful democratic um and um uh if you they are really important to Israel standing in America and you abandon them for evangelical Christians you'll regret that one day right right well um it's enormously complicated as is Russia Ukraine as is everything and thank you for coming on and not talking about Elon Musk only because I'm I'm a little already I'm a little tired iran Iraqi war Iran Iraq war um we're going to have to leave it there um but I want to thank Tom for joining me and thank you at home for watching us for more on the Trump Musk fallout sorry be sure to check out Charlie Warzel's latest article at theatlantic.com i'm Jeffrey Goldberg good night from Washington corporate funding for Washington Week with the Atlantic is provided by in 1995 two friends set out to make wireless coverage accessible to all with no long-term contracts nationwide coverage and 100% US-based customer support consumer Cellular Freedom Calls additional funding is provided by Coup and Patricia Euan through the Euan Foundation committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities sandra and Carl Delay Magnus Rose Hershel and Andy Shrieves Robert and Susan Rosenbomb the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you thank you [Music] you're watching PBS s