>>> NOW, AMID THE POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE OF HOSTING A KING AND TRYING TO END A WAR, OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP MUST SIDELINED NUCLEAR TALKS, AND FOCUS ON OPENING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, IF HE WANTS TO SAVE THE WORLD ECONOMY.

AND YOU HEARD US JUST DISCUSS ALL OF THIS.

RETIRED ADMIRAL BILL McRAVEN HAS THREE DECADES OF MILITARY EXPERTISE.

HE OVERSAW THE NAVY S.E.A.L.

RAID THAT KILLED OSAMA BIN LADEN AND HE HAS BEEN WIDELY KNOWN FOR FAMOUS SPEECHES LIKE, "MAKE YOUR BED," FOR A GRADUATION CEREMONY IN 2014.

NOW, HE HAS COLLECTED SOME OF THOSE SPEECHES INTO A NEW BUCK AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THIS IRAN CONFLICT, AND THE IMPORTANCE OF LEADERSHIP.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

ADMIRAL BILL McRAVEN, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, AS WELL.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT, CALLED "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, & LIFE" -- IT HAS ESSAYS IN IT, SPEECHES IN IT, EVEN A FEW POEMS.

AND YOU SAY IT IS A BOOK ABOUT THE AMERICAN SPIRIT.

HOW DO YOU DEFINE THE AMERICAN SPIRIT, THESE DAYS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK OF THE AMERICAN SPIRIT AS KIND OF A PERSONIFICATION OF WHAT WE THINK OF AS THE AMERICAN CHARACTER.

THIS IDEA THAT, AS AMERICANS, WE CAN DO ANYTHING.

YOU KNOW, WE CAN PUT A MAN ON THE MOON, WE CAN SEND FOUR PEOPLE AROUND THE MOON, WE CAN CURE CANCER, WE CAN TAKE A I AND DO SOMETHING GOOD WITH IT.

BUT, IT IS ALSO THE UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR VALUES, AS AMERICANS, ARE IMPORTANT.

THIS IDEA OF EQUALITY, AND JUSTICE, AND THE RULE OF LAW, AT THIS IDEA THAT WE WANT TO BE THE GOOD GUYS IN THE WORLD -- I THINK, THIS IS THE AMERICAN CHARACTER, AND IT IS PERSONIFIED IN THE AMERICAN SPIRIT AND THE PEOPLE I HAVE MET OVER MY TIME BOTH IN THE MILITARY, AND IN ACADEMIA, AND IN HEALTHCARE.

AND THESE STORIES THAT I TELL, THESE SPEECHES, REALLY ARE STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE THAT HAVE INSPIRED ME THROUGHOUT MY LIFE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT "DOING GOOD."

LET ME TAKE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, WHICH IS USAID, OUR FOREIGN AID PROGRAM, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CAME TO HEALTH.

TO WHAT EXTENT, DOES SOMEBODY LIKE YOURSELF, WHO DEALT WITH MILITARY, THE PROJECTION OF MILITARY POWER, TO GET PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD TO DO WHAT WE WANTED, TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THAT UNDERMINE WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO?

>> MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, USAID WAS VITAL TO OUR SOFT POWER IN THE WORLD.

AND LOOK, I GET IT, USAID PROBABLY HAD A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

EVERY GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION YOU KNOW, NEEDS TO BE REVIEWED PERIODICALLY, WE NEED TO KIND OF CUT THE WASTE.

BUT, AT THE END OF THE DAY, OUR ABILITY AS AMERICANS TO PROJECT SOFT POWER IN THE FORM OF USAID AND OTHER HUMANITARIAN AID REALLY, AGAIN, HELPED US WITH THIS REPUTATION OF BEING THE GOOD GUYS.

ALL THROUGH THERE, THERE WAS AN EARTHQUAKE, A TSUNAMI, YOU KNOW, HURRICANE.

ANY SORT OF DEVASTATION, THE AMERICAN MILITARY WAS THERE WITH OUR BIG DECK, AND USAID CARE PACKAGES THAT WE PUT FORTH, IN, YOU KNOW, COUNTRIES ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THIS WAS MEANINGFUL, AGAIN, IN STRENGTHENING THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.

SO, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT BEING GOOD, FOR GOODNESS SAKE.

YES, THAT IS IMPORTANT.

BUT, IT HAS THE POWER OF STRENGTHENING OUR ALLIANCES AND STRENGTHENING THE BOND SO WHEN WE REALLY NEED THEM, THEY WILL BE THERE.

>> YOUR BOOK HAS COME OUT JUST IN TIME FOR THE 250th BIRTHDAY, JULY 4th OF 2026.

TELL ME, HOW CAN THIS BOOK, AND OTHER BOOKS LIKE IT, HELP US REGAIN THE AMERICAN SPIRIT?

AND HOW CAN WE USE THIS 250th, THIS BIRTHDAY, TO TRY TO DIMINISH SOME OF THE POLARIZATION THAT HAS ZAPPED OUR SPIRIT?

>> AGAIN, AS WE APPROACH THE 250th, I GAVE A SPEECH A FEW YEARS BACK AT THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL SOCIETY, AND IT WAS AT A TIME -- AND AGAIN, WE HAVE HAD THESE TIMES IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS -- WHERE PEOPLE WERE BEGINNING TO DOUBT, YOU KNOW, THE STRENGTH OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

SO, I TALK A LOT ABOUT OUR DEMOCRACY AND I SAY, "LOOK, AS YOU KNOW --" PROBABLY BETTER THAN ANYBODY, WALTER, "THIS IS STILL THE GREAT EXPERIMENT, WE ARE NOT DONE, YET.

IF WE WANT TO MAKE IT ANOTHER 250 YEARS," THEN, I OFFERED SOME IDEAS ON HOW WE COULD GET THERE.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK BACK OVER THE LAST 250 YEARS, I STARTED OFF WITH SAYING, "LOOK, WE NEED TO BE THE GOOD GUYS."

I TALKED ABOUT THE MARSHALL PLAN AND THE AIRLIFT AND THE THINGS WE HAVE DONE GLOBALLY TO STRENGTHEN AMERICA'S SENSE THAT WE ARE -- WE HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND.

THEN, I TALKED ABOUT OTHER THINGS.

LOOK, WE NEED TO BE WELCOMING.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, WE HAD ABOUT 45 MILLION IMMIGRANTS THAT ARE HERE IN THE COUNTRY NOW, WE ARE A NATION THAT HAS COME OVER HERE BY BOAT, AND FOR THE MOST PART, EITHER WILLINGLY OR UNWILLINGLY, AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE WELCOMING.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE SMART.

I AM CONCERNED, WE ARE REDUCING OUR SUPPORT TO OUR UNIVERSITIES, THE RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES THAT REALLY BECOME THE FOUNDATION FOR A LOT OF OUR GROWTH AND OUR INNOVATIVE NEST.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE STRONG, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, WE NEED A STRONG MILITARY.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE THE SACRIFICE OF THOSE MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORM, THOSE FIRST RESPONDERS, AND CONTINUE TO DO THAT.

AND MY LAST POINT WAS, WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE COMPASSIONATE, BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS WHAT SETS US APART FROM RUSSIA, FROM CHINA, FROM OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A VERY BROAD QUESTION, WHAT IS THE ROLE -- WHAT IS THE CONNECTION OF THE MILITARY TO DEMOCRACY?

>> WELL, AT THE END OF THE DAY, FOR THE AMERICAN MILITARY, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO, AGAIN, COME FROM THE DEMOCRACY.

COME FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE NATION.

THIS IS, OF COURSE, THE MILITARY IS -- YOU KNOW, IT IS LESS THAN 1% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE SERVED IN THE MILITARY TODAY, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THIS 1% AREN'T VIEWED WITH GREAT RESPECT IN THE COMMUNITIES THEY COME FROM.

AND SO, THEIR ABILITY, YOUNG SOLDIERS, AIRMEN, MARINES, COAST GUARD MEN, THEIR ABILITY TO GET OUT IN THEIR COMMUNITIES, SHOWCASE HOW GOOD THESE MEN AND WOMEN ARE, I THINK, REALLY HELPS STRENGTHEN OUR DEMOCRACY, BUT IT IS ALSO THIS RECOGNITION THAT, AS THE MILITARY, WE RESPOND TO THE CIVILIAN CHAIN OF COMMAND.

WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THE PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE, HE IS THE ELECTED COMMANDER IN CHIEF, AND WE IN THE MILITARY HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO FOLLOW THE LEGAL ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND I HAVE ENCOURAGED ALL THE SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AND MARINES TO DO THAT, AS LONG AS THOSE ORDERS ARE LEGAL, AND CONSISTENT WITH THE CONSTITUTION, THEN YOU FOLLOW THEM.

AND THIS IS A STRONG PART OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

CIVILIAN RULE OF THE MILITARY.

>> YOU JUST SAID, "AS LONG AS THOSE ORDERS ARE LEGAL, AND CONSTITUTIONAL."

AND AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN A CONTROVERSY RECENTLY, SENATOR MARK KELLY, WHO SERVED IN THE MILITARY, AND SIX OTHER, I THINK, DEMOCRATS, ALL REMINDED PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY, THEY DID NOT HAVE TO OBEY ORDERS THAT WERE NOT LEGAL.

AND NOW, SENATOR KELLY IS BEING INVESTIGATED.

TELL ME, PARSE THAT CONTROVERSY FOR ME?

>> YEAH, WELL, AGAIN, AS A RETIRED MILITARY OFFICER, YOU STILL TECHNICALLY FOLLOW UNDER THE MILITARY CODE OF JUSTICE.

HOWEVER, NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY THAT WAS RETIRED, HAS EVER BEEN PROSECUTED FOR SPEAKING UP WHEN THEY WERE RETIRED.

AND I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT.

I AM A HUGE FAN OF MARK KELLY.

I APPRECIATE WHAT HE DID.

I UNDERSTAND THE CONTROVERSY BEHIND IT.

IT CAME AT KIND OF A CRITICAL MOMENT, AND I UNDERSTAND THE CONCERN.

BUT, I TELL MY, YOU KNOW, AUDIENCES, THE YOUNG SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AND MARINES, THE SAME THING.

YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW THE LEGAL ORDERS OF THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

YOU SWORE AN OATH.

BUT, YOU ALSO SHOULD NOT BE FOLLOWING THE LEGAL ORDERS.

FOR THE YOUNG TROOPS, THAT'S HARD.

FOR THE YOUNG SOLDIERS, THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO PARSE THE LEGAL AND THE ILLEGAL, BUT THIS IS REALLY THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE SENIOR OFFICERS -- AS I ONCE WAS -- AND THE SENIOR ENLISTED, TO EXPRESS THEIR CONCERN, WHEN THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL.

BUT, I CAN TELL YOU IN MY 37 YEARS IN THE MILITARY, NEVER ONCE -- NEVER ONCE -- DID I FEEL LIKE SOMEBODY HAD GIVEN ME AN ILLEGAL ORDER.

THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ORDERS I DIDN'T LIKE, AND THAT I QUESTION, BUT THEY WERE NEVER ILLEGAL, AND THEREFORE, YOU STILL HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW THEM, IF THEY ARE LEGAL.

>> DO YOU WORRY THAT THE MILITARY NOW -- I ASKED SOME OF THE GENERALS AND HIGH-RANKING OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN QUICKLY CHANGED -- WHAT, OR COULD DO PRESIDENT TRUMP SPITTING IF THERE WERE AN ELECTION DISPUTE?

>> YEAH, I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

I KNOW GENERAL DAN KANE, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS VERY WELL.

I KNOW A LOT OF THE SENIORS THAT ARE STILL IN THE MILITARY.

THESE ARE REMARKABLE MEN AND WOMEN.

THEY WILL FOLLOW THE OATH OF OFFICE.

THEY WILL SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION.

AND I AM NOT REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

I AM CONCERNED, OF COURSE, IN THE LAST YEAR, THE PRESIDENT HAS EITHER FIRED OR ASKED TO RETIRE SOMEWHERE AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 30 GENERAL OFFICERS.

THIS HAS A CASCADING EFFECT ON THE MORALE OF THE SENIOR OFFICERS.

NOT SO MUCH THE JUNIOR OFFICERS AND THE JUNIOR ENLISTED, BUT IT DOES HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE SENIOR OFFICERS, AND I AM CONCERNED THAT IT PUTS THEM IN A POSITION WHERE THEY MAY BE AFRAID TO SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER.

YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION, AS A MILITARY OFFICER, TO ALWAYS GIVE YOUR BEST MILITARY ADVICE.

NOT YOUR BEST POLITICAL ADVICE, NOT WHAT YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT OR THE SECRETARY WANTS TO HEAR, WHAT IS YOUR BEST MILITARY ADVICE.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS, YOU KNOW, "PURGE," IF YOU WILL, DOESN'T IMPACT THAT.

>> A LOT OF THE PEOPLE, A HIGH PROPORTION OF THE PEOPLE BEING PURGED THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED, ARE WOMEN AND MINORITIES.

DOES THAT CONCERN YOU?

>> OF COURSE, IT DOES.

OF COURSE, IT DOES.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE TERRIFIC OFFICERS.

BROWN, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CHIEF NAVAL OPERATION.

AND AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHY THE SECRETARY DECIDED TO MOVE THEM ON AND THAT IS THE SECRETARY'S PREROGATIVE.

SO, AGAIN, YOU CAN'T DEBATE THE FACT THAT THE SECRETARY AND THE PRESIDENT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT.

BUT, YES, IT DOES HAVE KIND OF A CASCADING EFFECT ACROSS AFRICAN-AMERICAN OFFICERS, AND FEMALES, WONDERING WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES.

>> WE ARE NOW TWO MONTHS INTO THE IRAN WAR.

TELL ME, IN YOUR MIND, AS A MILITARY OFFICER, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ACTUAL MISSION IS?

>> YEAH, WELL, OF COURSE, IT'S HARD TO TELL AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

EVERY PRESIDENT SINCE 1979 HAS BEEN TRYING TO CHANGE THE REGIME IN IRAN AND IRAN IS A HORRIBLE REGIME, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, THE FACT IS THEY HAVE KILLED HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS, BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS AS WELL AS OUR ALLIES.

THEY ARE SPREADING TERRORISM AROUND THE WORLD.

I HAVE NO LOVE LOST LOST, WHATSOEVER, FOR THE IRANIAN REGIME.

BUT, AS PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME IN -- AND AGAIN, HE PROBABLY THOUGHT HE HAD THIS UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE THE LANDSCAPE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT HERE IS WHAT THE MILITARY LEADERS WOULD HAVE TOLD THE PRESIDENT FROM THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING.

THEY WOULD HAVE SAID, "LOOK, CHANGING REGIMES IS HARD.

SO, IF YOU THINK, BY BOMBING THEM, THEY ARE, ALL OF A SUDDEN, GOING TO GIVE UP, PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN."

PARTICULARLY IN IRAN, THE REGIME IS WIDE AND DEEP, SO TAKING OUT THE SUPREME LEADER JUST MEANS THAT SOMEBODY ELSE IS GOING TO STEP UP.

BY THE WAY, YOU TOOK OUT AN 86- YEAR-OLD MAN, NOW YOU HAVE A 56- YEAR-OLD MAN.

ACCORDING TO IRANIAN INTELLIGENCE, THE NEW REGIME IS EVEN MORE HARD-LINE.

SO, THEY WOULD HAVE TOLD HIM, THE MILITARY WOULD HAVE TOLD THE PRESIDENT, "REGIME CHANGE IS HARD."

THE MILITARY WOULD HAVE ALSO TOLD HIM, "WE HAVE NEVER BOMBED OUR WAY TO HISTORY."

AT NO POINT IN THE HISTORY OF THE MILITARY HAVE WE BOMBED OUR WAY TO VICTORY.

IT IS GOING TO BE HARD.

THE FINAL THING -- THEY WOULD HAVE ALSO SAID, "LOOK, IF YOU THINK THERE WILL BE THIS UPRISING AND WE WILL HAVE A JEFFERSONIAN DEMOCRACY, THAT PROBABLY WILL NOT HAPPEN."

IT COULD.

IT COULD, BUT IT IS UNLIKELY.

ONE THING THEY WOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY TOLD THE PRESIDENT IS, "YOU NEVER, EVER, EVER, TALK ABOUT IRAN WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ."

THEY WOULD HAVE TOLD THE PRESIDENT, "AS SOON AS YOU START BOMBING IRAN, THEY WILL START DOING WHAT THEY CAN TO CLOSE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ."

AND CLEARLY, THEY HAVE DONE THAT.

SO, NOW, THE QUESTION IS, GOING FORWARD, WHERE DO WE GO?

WELL, THE IRANIANS HAVE COME FORWARD AND THEY HAVE SAID, "IF YOU LIFT THE BLOCKADE, THEN WE WILL OPEN THE STRAIT."

I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT SHOULD HAVE PUT ON THE TABLE.

HE SHOULD HAVE TOLD THE IRANIANS, "I WILL CLEAR THE BLOCKADE IF YOU OPEN THE STRAIT."

BECAUSE HE HAS TO BE THINKING ABOUT, WHAT ARE HIS STRATEGIC GOALS AT THIS TIME?

THE WORLD ECONOMY IS GETTING CRUSHED AND THE ONLY WAY IT IS GOING TO PICK UP, IS IF WE CAN OPEN THE STRAIT.

NOW, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT THE IRANIANS HAVE COME FORWARD WITH THIS OFFER, I'M NOT SURE THE PRESIDENT WILL BUY IT.

BUT, THE BLOCKADE, HE CAN TURN THE BLOCKADE ON, TURN THE BLOCKADE OFF.

HE SHOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THIS OFFER FROM THE IRANIANS.

>> ARE YOU SAYING THE STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE RIGHT NOW SHOULD BE TO OPEN THE STRAIT?

WELL, THE STRAIT WAS ALREADY OPENED.

IF WE JUST DO THAT AND WE DON'T DO ANYTHING WITH THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM, IS THAT WORTH THIS EFFORT?

>> NO, NO.

THE PIECE OF THIS THAT I FAILED TO MENTION WAS, YOU HAVE TO GET THE IRANIANS TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

YOU HAVE TO DO THAT.

AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS IS, IF THE PRESIDENT TOLD THE IRANIANS, "WE WILL LIFT THE BLOCKADE IF YOU WILL OPEN THE STRAIT AND COME TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, NOW WE CAN BEGIN THE NEGOTIATIONS."

AND AGAIN, THIS IS WHAT THE IRANIANS HAVE NOW OFFERED.

I WISH THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE MOVED BEFORE THE IRANIANS, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THEY OFFERED THIS, AND WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THE JCPOA, THE OBAMA NUCLEAR PLAN, ENTERED 18 MONTHS TO NEGOTIATE WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE PROFESSIONAL NEGOTIATORS.

SO, AT LEAST GIVE THE IRANIANS TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THE BALLISTIC MISSILES, THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH THE URANIUM CAN BE ENRICHED, THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT ALL OF THE STICKY ISSUES THAT ARE OUT THERE, BUT UNTIL YOU GET THE STRAIT OPEN, I THINK THE PRESIDENT COMES UNDER A LOT OF FIRE AND SO DO THE IRANIANS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT ENDING THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND REGIME CHANGE, HAVING BEEN THE TWO BIG GOALS.

SO, DOES THAT MEAN, THAT IF THE IRANIANS DO NOT AGREE TO WHAT WE NEED, WE WOULD HAVE TO PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND?

>> YEAH.

I WOULD CERTAINLY NOT RECOMMEND PUTTING BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

ONE, PEOPLE SOMETIMES UNDERESTIMATE THE SIZE OF IRAN.

YOU ARE FROM TEXAS, WALTER, AND IRAN IS 2 1/2 TIMES THE SIZE OF TEXAS.

THAT IS LIKE TELLING PEOPLE, LOOK, YOU ARE GOING TO PUT MARINES IN WEST TEXAS AND EXPECT THEM TO MOVE ALL THE WAY TO HOUSTON.

THIS IS JUST -- IT'S HARD, HARD TO DO.

COULD WE TAKE HEART ISLAND?

YEAH, WE PROBABLY COULD, BUT IT WOULD BE RISKY TO DO SO.

I DON'T SEE PUTTING BOOTS ON THE GROUND AS A REAL OPTION.

NOT SAYING THE PRESIDENT WON'T, BUT I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT IT WOULD GAIN, HERE.

WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING, SINCE DAY ONE, IS THAT IF THE IRANIAN REGIME SURVIVES, IRAN WINS.

AND SO, RIGHT NOW, THE PRESIDENT IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION.

THE IRANIAN REGIME, UNLESS THERE IS A COLLAPSE OF THE REGIME AND A MORE MODERATE THEOCRACY OR, YOU KNOW, SOME OTHER ADMINISTRATION COMES IN, TO -- BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, ARE WE ANY BETTER OFF THAN WE WERE PRIOR TO FEBRUARY 28th?

WELL, WE HAVE DECIMATED THE NAVY, WE HAVE DECIMATED THEIR AIR FORCE, WE HAVE CERTAINLY PUSHED BACK THEIR NEW YOUR PROGRAM.

-- NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

BUT HOW BETTER OFF ARE WE?

THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

>> I DON'T THINK ANYBODY KNOWS MORE ABOUT SPECIAL FORCES THAN YOU DO.

I MEAN, YOU GOT BIN LADEN WITH YOUR SPECIAL FORCES.

IS THERE A WAY TO USE THE SPECIAL FORCES TO GET THE ENRICHED URANIUM OUT OF THE LAND?

>> I WON'T GO INTO DETAILS, WALTER, BUT LET'S JUST SAY, IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

NOT IMPOSSIBLE, BUT VERY, VERY DIFFICULT AND VERY RISKY.

>> DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU GAME PLAN THIS, OR PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY HAVE, AND SAY, "HEY, THIS IS NOT EASY?"

>> WELL, WE HAVE CERTAINLY GAME PLANNED IT FOR ALL SORTS OF SCENARIOS, AND -- [ LAUGHTER ] IT IS NEVER EASY.

BUT, AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO PUT ANY OF THE SOLDIERS AT RISK, IF THIS PLAN IS GETTING CLOSER, WHICH I DON'T KNOW THAT IT IS.

BUT, I THINK WE WILL JUST KIND OF LEAVE THE DISCUSSION AT THAT POINT.

>> IN YOUR BOOK, ONE OF YOUR THEMES IS HOW YOUR BELIEF IN GOD HAS HELPED YOU AND SUSTAINED YOU.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT?

AND THEN, ALSO, HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, PETE HEGSETH, INVOKING GOD THE WAY HE DOES?

>> WELL, YEAH, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A MAN OF FAITH.

AND I THINK THAT FAITH HAS HELPED ME THROUGH SOME VERY, VERY CHALLENGING TIMES.

I TALKED ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, AND IT HAS MEANT A LOT TO ME.

BUT, I AM ALSO A BELIEVER IN THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, HERE.

AND IN THE MILITARY, I HAVE SPENT TIME WITH, YOU KNOW, WITH PEOPLE FROM EVERY RELIGION.

SOME GREAT SOLDIERS.

AND YOU NEVER TRY TO IMPRESS YOUR RELIGION UPON, YOU KNOW, YOUR TEAMMATES.

WHETHER YOU ARE CHRISTIAN, JEWISH, MUSLIM, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.

YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO BE AN AMERICAN SOLDIER, AND AGAIN, KEEP YOUR FACE OUT OF THE TACTICAL DISCUSSIONS, IF YOU WILL.

SO, I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF THE SECRETARY INVOKING THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF HOW THIS IS "A CRUSADE AGAINST IRAN."

I JUST DON'T THINK THAT IS HEALTHY FOR OUR YOUNG SOLDIERS BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE SOLDIERS HAVE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, ANYTIME THEY WANT TO VISIT A CHAPLAIN, OR A PRIEST, OR A RABBI.

AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT STAYS IN THE MILITARY.

THIS IS VITALLY IMPORTANT TO THE MORALE OF THE SOLDIERS.

THEY NEED TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE CHAPLAINS AVAILABLE TO THEM FOR WHATEVER RELIGION THEY HAPPEN TO BE.

BUT, YOU DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, CHARACTERIZE A FIGHT, AS A FIGHT OF RELIGIONS.

I THINK THAT IS, AGAIN, A BAD APPROACH TO TAKE.

>> ADMIRAL BILL McRAVEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, WALTER.