>> NOW TO SUDAN WHERE CIVILIANS BEAR THE BRUNT OF THE BRUTAL CONFLICT.

WARNING OF STARVATION IN CITIES .

IT IS ANOTHER CRISIS IN THE DEVASTATING CIVIL WAR THAT IS BEEN RAGING SINCE 2023 .

A POWER STRUGGLE BETWEEN THE PALESTINIAN ARMY AND THE GROUP, RS OF .

THE COURT FOUND THERE ARE REASONABLE GROUNDS THAT WAR CRIMES ARE COMMITTED IN THE COUNTRY.

JOE LEVEL BONN AND LINDSAY ADDARIO WITNESSED FIRSTHAND IT MAY JOIN TO DISCUSS WHAT THE U.N. IS CALLING THE WORLD'S LARGEST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

>> THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

I CAN, I WANT TO START WITH YOU WITH A NEW REPORT FROM SUDAN.

THERE ARE SOME ALARMING STATISTICS WITH 14 MILLION PEOPLE DISPLACED BY THE YEARS OF FIGHTING WHICH IS MORE THAN UKRAINE AND GAZA COMBINED.

14,000 HAVE DIED IN THE CONFLICT AND THAT IS PROBABLY A SIGNIFICANT UNDERCOUNT.

25 MILLION ARE EXPECTED TO GO HUNGRY THIS YEAR.

THOSE ARE ABSTRACT NUMBERS FOR PEOPLE WHEN YOU SEE SUCH LARGE NUMBERS OF?

WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE ON THE GROUND WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE IN THIS LIFE ?

>> I THINK THE PLACE IN SUDAN WHERE THE NUMBERS CAME HOME THE MOST FOR ME, IT WAS --I GUESS YOU WOULD CALL IT A DISPLACED PERSONS CAMP, BUT IT WASN'T REALLY A CAMP.

IT WAS A GROUP OF PEOPLE LIVING IN A FORMER'S COOL AND IT WAS OUTSIDE OF THE SUBURBS OF KHARTOUM.

THEY HAD BEEN MOVED FROM WHEREVER IT WAS THEY HAD BEEN.

THEY BROUGHT LIKE IT'S WITH THEM ANY ORGANIZED FOOD DISTRIBUTION.

THERE WERE NO ORGANIZATIONS OR ANYBODY ELSE.

THEY WERE SIMPLY SLEEPING ON THE GROUND OR LYING ON THE GROUND.

IT WAS HOT AT 100 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT AND WAS ALSO RAMADAN AND PEOPLE WERE NOT EATING MUCH DURING THE DAY.

THE FEELING OF STASIS WAS THERE.

EVERYBODY WAS STUCK.

IT WASN'T CLEAR WHERE THEY WOULD GO AND HOW THEY WOULD GET OUT OF THIS PLACE AND GO TO ANOTHER PLACE.

THIS IS SET DINNING SENSATION THAT THE FUTURE HAS BEEN CUT OFF AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE WILL DO NEXT.

I RAN TO THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

PEOPLE AT UNIVERSITY WHO SUDDENLY REALIZED THERE WAS NO MORE UNIVERSITY.

PEOPLE DOING JOBS AND CAREERS THAT DISAPPEARED OVERNIGHT .

SUDAN HAD A MIDDLE CLASSED WITH PEOPLE ENGAGED IN BUSINESS.

YOU KNOW, IT HAD UNIVERSITIES AND TOOLS AND ALL OF THAT CAME TO AN END OVERNIGHT.

ALL OF THAT, I THINK IS THE REAL HORROR OF IT .

THE SENSE OF HOPELESSNESS AND THE FEELING THAT NO ONE IS COMING AND NO ONE CARES.

>> SO MANY POWERFUL IMAGES .

A PIECE JUST CAME OUT IN MAY AS WELL AND I WONDER IF YOU COULD KIND OF DESCRIBE A LITTLE BIT FOR OUR AUDIENCE, THE CONTEXT OF THESE IMAGES.

ONE OR SEVERAL ARE OF LITERALLY CHILDREN SCRAMBLING FOR BOWLS OF FOOD ON THE GROUND.

YOU KNOW, IS THAT A DAILY OCCURRENCE OR IS IT OFTEN?

HOW WIDESPREAD IS IT ?

I THINK IT'S HARD FOR MOST AMERICANS TO IMAGINE THAT INSECURITY .

>> THOSE IMAGES ARE FROM CHAD AND IN THAT SITUATION, WE WORK COVERING ONE OF THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ROOMS.

IT WAS A COMMUNITY KITCHEN .

THEY ARE GIVEN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY AND THEY MAKE AS MANY MEALS AS THEY CAN TO FEED THE SUDANESE REFUGEES THAT HAVE JUST COME ACROSS TO CHAD.

IT'S A PERFECT DEMONSTRATION THAT THE U.N. WF P DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH BUDGET TO FEED PEOPLE WITH A HOT MEAL WHEN THEY ARRIVED.

SO, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE COMING ACROSS THE BORDER INTO NORTHEAST CHAD .

THEY LITERALLY HAD NOTHING TO EAT IN THE HAD NO TENTS AND NO SHELTER AND THEY WOULD SIT FOR DAYS, UP TO 10 DAYS SWELTERING IN THE SUN WITH OVER 100 DEGREES AND NO FOOD.

SO, WHEN ONE OF THESE TRUCKS FULL OF GIANT POTS OF FOOD WOULD COME TO FEED THE PEOPLE, IT WAS A MAD SCRAMBLE AND PEOPLE WERE LITERALLY JUMPING OVER EACH OTHER.

AT THE END OF ONE OF THESE SITUATIONS, LITERALLY, THE CHILDREN COULD NOT HOLD THEIR PATIENTS ANYMORE AND STARTED GROUND FOR FOOD.

IT WAS COMPLETE CHAOS.

IT SPEAKS TO HOW HUNGRY AND HOW DESPERATE PEOPLE ARE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK INSIDE OF SUDAN AND ARE FOR, THERE HAS BEEN A FAMINE DECLARED.

ABC WAS ABLE TO SNEAK IN A FEW CAMERAS TO LOCALS.

NO JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN ALLOWED INSIDE TO DOCUMENT.

THERE ARE LITERALLY PEOPLE WITHERING AWAY TO THE BONE BECAUSE THERE IS NO FOOD AND IT'S UNDER SIEGE.

>> THIS IMAGES PROVIDING TWO NO FOOD OR AID INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHAT IS THE ROLE THE UNITED STATES USED TO PLAY COMPARED TO WHAT IT DOES NOW COMPARED TO WHAT IT HAS WITH THE AID ?

>> SO, THE UNITED STATES PREVIOUSLY SUPPLIED ABOUT 40% OF THE WORLD'S HUMANITARIAN AID.

THE U.S. ALSO SUPPLIED MOST OF THE LOGISTICS FOR THAT.

SO THE TRUCKS THAT MOVED GRAIN AROUND TO THE WEBSITES THAT COLLECTED STATISTICS AND ALLOWED PEOPLE TO PLAN .

BAKE ACCOUNT AND PAYMENT SYSTEMS USED TO PAY FOR AID.

ONE THAT HAPPENED WHEN USAID SHUT DOWN, IT WAS LITERALLY JUST SHOT AND PEOPLE WERE TOLD TO LEAVE THEIR OFFICES AND WERE NOT GIVEN ACCESS TO EMAIL OR THE PAYMENT SYSTEMS AND TOLD TO GO HOME AND YOU HAD CASCADES OF CHAOS.

EVEN ORGANIZATION THAT DIDN'T KNOW THEY HAD RELATIONSHIP WITH USAID , FOUND THEY WERE MISSING SOMETHING MORE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE WERE NOT WORKING OR THE FUNDING FOR .

YOU CAN TAKE THAT ALL THE WAY DOWN TO REALLY THE MICRO STREET- LEVEL.

WE WERE IN A SOUP KITCHEN, ONE OF THE SUIT KITCHENS RUN BY THE LOCAL SUDANESE.

THEY TOLD US, WE USED TO SERVE PEOPLE FIVE DAYS A WEEK AND WE HAD TO CUT TO THREE DAYS A WEEK BECAUSE WE ARE NOT ABLE TO GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF SUPPLIES.

THE SUPPLIES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OUR BEANS, OR LITTLE BIT OF GRAIN.

IT IS NOTHING COMPLICATED OR SOPHISTICATED , BUT EVEN THAT TINY AMOUNT OF FOOD AND IT'S PROBABLY PENNIES WORTH OF FOOD, IS BEING CUT BECAUSE OF THE CHAOS OF WHAT HAPPENED IN WASHINGTON FOR REASONS THAT ARE STILL PRETTY OBSCURE.

THE EFFECTS OF THAT ARE MANY AND MULTIPLE AND STILL FLOWING THROUGH THE SYSTEM .

AND, THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WILL DIE AND START AND NOT HAVE ACCESS TO MEDICINE BECAUSE OF DECISIONS MADE IN WASHINGTON.

>> THERE IS A PHOTO OF A CHILD WEARING RED SHORTS.

THIS LITTLE GIRL HAS CLEARLY BEEN WOUNDED AND HAS NOT GOTTEN THE TREATMENT SHE NEEDS.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A CHILD LIKE THIS GETS INJURED?

WHERE DID THEIR PARENTS, IF THEY HAVE PARENTS, TAKE THEM?

>> THE ANSWER TO THAT DEPENDS ON WHERE THEY ARE WHEN THEY ARE INJURED AND SORT OF WHO IS CONTROLLING THE AREA.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE SAW IN DARFUR AND ALSO KHARTOUM WHERE THE CIVILIANS ARE ALWAYS PAYING THE PRICE OF BEING INJURED IN ATTACKS AND AIRSTRIKES.

IN THE SOUTH CONTROLLED AREAS, THEY WERE LUCKY BECAUSE THEY HAD A HOSPITAL THEY COULD GO TO, IF THEY COULD GET THEIR.

THERE WERE TRAINED TO DOCTORS.

THERE WAS MINIMAL MEDICINE, BUT ENOUGH TO TREAT THEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, AND DESCRIBES AT THE BEGINNING OF HER STORY HOW THERE WAS SHELLING GOING ON .

AFTER ONE OF THOSE ATTACKS, I RAN TO THE HOSPITAL OVERNIGHT.

THERE WERE 36 WOMEN AND CHILDREN SPLAYED OUT ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOSPITAL AND THERE WERE SO MANY WOUNDED THERE ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT ENOUGH MEDICAL CARE TO TAKE CARE OF THEM.

THEY WERE BEING TREATED BUT THEY HAD TO TRIAGE THEM TO FIGURE OUT WHO WAS MOST GRIEVOUSLY INJURED.

FOR THAT GIRL, SHE WAS ON THE OUTS GIRL --OUTSKIRTS OF KHARTOUM BUT SHE COULD NOT GO TO THAT HOSPITAL.

INSTEAD OF CROSSING FRONT LINES, THEY FLED ELSEWHERE IN DARFUR.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT CARE SHE GOT INITIALLY, BUT WHEN I MET HER, SHE HAD BEEN DISPLACED TWICE AND CLEARLY HAD NOT BEEN TREATED PROPERLY FOR HER WOUNDS BECAUSE SHE HAD TROUBLE WITH MOVEMENT HER MUSCLES WERE FROZEN UP.

IT WAS A FAMILY LITERALLY LIVING IN AN EMPTY AND FINISHED BUILDING WAITING FOR FOOD .

SO, THERE ARE SO MANY ISSUES THAT ONCE.

YOU HAVE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND VICTIMS OF MORTAR STRIKES AND AIRSTRIKES ON BOTH SIDES.

THEN YOU HAVE A SHORTAGE OF ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE AND NO PROPER NUTRITION TO FEED PEOPLE SO THEY CAN PROPERLY GET BETTER.

>> I AM OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER AN ERA WHERE CELEBRITIES TRYING TO RAISE VISIBILITY AND SUDAN A COUPLE OF DECADES AGO , OR LESS.

THERE WERE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS WHO MADE A POINT TO RAISE AWARENESS IN CHURCHES ON SUNDAYS.

I AM WONDERING, YOU SPOKE TO THE PRIME MINISTER WHO RAN A SHORT LIVED CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT AND YET AN INTERESTING LINE IN YOUR .

HE SAID, THE WORLD WE GOT TO KNOW IN THE PAX AMERICANA AND THE POST WORLD WAR CONSENSUS IS JUST TO KNOW MORE.

HOW DID WE GET FROM THAT ERA A FEW SHORT DECADES AGO WHERE AMERICA SEEMED INTERESTED AND ENGAGED IN WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THE PEOPLE IN SUDAN TO THIS SORT OF A STATEMENT ?

>> IT HAS BEEN A FAST SHIFT, ACTUALLY.

MAYBE WE DON'T NOTICE BECAUSE OF OTHER THINGS HAPPENING IN OUR SOCIETY.

BUT, ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD , THE WITHDRAW OF AMERICA AND THE LOSS OF INTEREST FROM AMERICA IS FELT SHARPLY .

I DON'T WANT TO EXAGGERATE THE ROLE AMERICA PLAYED IN SUDAN.

IT HAS NEVER BEEN A PRIORITY IN AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY BUT IT WAS A SUBJECT PEOPLE WERE AWARE OF AND CARED ABOUT AND THERE IS AN EXHIBITION AT THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM IN WASHINGTON ABOUT DARFUR AS WELL .

THE U.S.

PLAYED A ROLE IN ENDING ONE PHASE OF THE CIVIL WAR AND IT PLAYED A ROLE IN SOUTH SUDAN WHICH HAD BEEN PART OF THE REST WHEN SUDAN SECEDED AND CREATED ITS OWN COUNTRY.

THE U.S.

PLAYED A MEDIATING ROLE IN ALL OF THAT.

FOR THE SUDANESE, NOW , YOU OFTEN MEET PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY PRO-AMERICAN OR HUGE FANS OF THE UNITED STATES BUT YOU STILL MEET PEOPLE WHO SAY, WHERE IS THE UNITED STATES?

WE MISS HAVING SOMEONE WHO WOULD OCCASIONALLY COME FROM THE OUTSIDE WHO HAD THE DIPLOMATIC CLOUD TO ORGANIZE A CONFERENCE OR A CONVERSATION OR NEGOTIATION.

WHO GET THE WARRING PARTIES IN ONE ROOM TOGETHER AND MAKE THEM SIT DOWN AND TALK .

THERE IS A FEELING THAT THERE USED TO BE MORE OF FROM THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL WITH ENVOYS IT WOULD SEND TO VARIOUS PLACES WITH STATUS AND THEY WOULD PLAY A ROLE.

AS THE SECURITY COUNCIL IS GROWN WEAKER , AND I TALK ABOUT THAT TOO.

AND AS THE U.S. HAS BEGUN DISTRACTED AND FOCUSED ON ITS OWN PROBLEMS AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, YOU HAVE THIS FEELING OF A VACUUM .

YOU KNOW, THIS FEELING THAT NOBODY CARES ABOUT SUDAN AS A WHOLE .

THERE ARE ONLY, AS I SAY, THESE MIDDLE POWERS, THESE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ECONOMIC INTEREST OR ALLIANCES WITH DIFFERENT GROUPS.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE LOST ANY SENSE OF WHAT USED TO BE CALLED LIBERAL WORLD ORDER.

A SET OF ORGANIZATIONS AND INSTITUTIONS AND A PATTERN OF PEOPLE WHO COULD, IN A CRISIS, HELP OUT .

THERE IS A WAY YOU CAN MEASURE THE DECLINE OF THE SYSTEM.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF REFUGEES IN THE WORLD AS A WHOLE, YOU CAN SEE THROUGHOUT THE '90s AND EARLY 2000'S, IT'S ABOUT 40,000 THAT GOES UP AND DOWN YOUR AFTER YEAR .

STARTING ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, THERE APPEARS TO BE A RAPID CLIMB AND WE ARE NOW ABOUT 2.5 TIMES THAT.

WARS ARE NOT SOLVED AND CONFLICTS ARE NOT ENDED .

>> YOU HAVE INTERESTING PEOPLE ON THE GROUND TRYING TO DO THEIR BEST.

YOU SPOKE TO A DOCTOR WHO TREATS SEVERELY MALNOURISHED PEOPLE AND YOU MET AN ACTIVIST.

TELL US ABOUT THE PEOPLE WITH WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO AND WHAT ARE THEY TELL YOU?

>> I MET A LOT OF SUDANESE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY COMMITTED TO STAYING INSIDE THEIR COUNTRY AND TO DOING WHAT THEY CAN AS LONG AS POSSIBLE TO MAKE THINGS BETTER.

ORGANIZED.

THERE IS A GROUP CALLED THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ROOMS AND SOME ARE CALLED MUTUAL AGE GROUPS.

MANY PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH THEM OR WHO VOLUNTEER THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WERE PART OF PREVIOUS DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENTS .

IN SUDAN, THERE WAS AN ERA WITH A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM STUDENTS, PROFESSIONALS, AND OTHERS TO OPEN UP SUDAN AND BRING BACK THE RULE OF LAW .

TO MAKE A BETTER LEGAL SYSTEM AND BRING BACK A MORE JUST STATE AND FOR RECONCILIATION AND TO CALM THINGS DOWN.

THIS IS BEFORE THE WAR BROKE OUT.

MANY PEOPLE ARE RUNNING FOOD KITCHENS , OR THEY ARE HELPING PEOPLE GET MEDICINE OR RAISING MONEY OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY TO BRING IN SOMETHING.

SO, YOU DO HAVE A SENSE THERE IS A KIND OF A PATRIOTISM AND A SENSE OF IMPORTANCE OF COMMUNITY THAT MUST BE VERY OLD THERE.

YOU DO START TO WORRY IF THE SITUATION WERE TO CONTINUE GET WORSE AND IF THERE WERE NO INTO THE FIGHTING, HOW MANY OF THEM WOULD BECOME DISCOURAGED?

WOULD THEY LEAVE?

YOU STILL HAVE THE POSSIBILITY, YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT WANT A DIFFERENT KIND OF SUDAN THAT CAN ARTICULATE IT AND IMAGINE IT AND THEY ARE STILL ON THE GROUND WORKING.

WE HAVE TO HOPE THAT AT SOME POINT THAT THOSE PEOPLE BEGAN TO HAVE A LARGER ROLE IN HOW THEIR COUNTRY IS RUN.

>> WHAT IS NEXT HERE?

IS THIS A WAR LIKELY TO SEE AND END ANYTIME SOON ?

>> IT DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT NOW THAT IT IS CLOSE TO ENDING.

THERE WILL COME UP POINT WHEN PEOPLE ARE EXISTED THEY BEING EXHAUSTED BY THE CONFLICT OR THE FRONT LINES ARE STABILIZED .

MAYBE A POINT IN THE FUTURE WHEN WE CAN MOVE TO A NEW PHASE.

AGAIN, THE CONFLICT NEEDS .

IT NEEDS AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN ATTENTION AS WELL AS OTHERS IN THE REGION.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES THAT COULD PLAY A GREATER ROLE.

TURKEY IS ONE AS WELL AS EGYPT .

IT IS IMAGINABLE, THE END, BUT IT DOESN'T FEEL NOW WE ARE THAT CLOSE.

>> I WOULD SAY WE CAN'T LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

SOME OF THE PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED WHO HAD FLED FIGHTING.

ONE WOMAN WAS IN AN AIRSTRIKE AND LITERALLY HAD HER BABY KILLED OFF HER SHOULDERS AS SHE WAS FLEEING .

ANOTHER WOMAN WAS FLEEING WITH HER FAMILY AND HER SON WHO IS VERY DARK SKINNED WAS PULLED OUT BY THE RS FN IS ARABIC WAS TESTED TO SEE IF THEY COULD DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO EXECUTE HIM .

ULTIMATELY, THEY DECIDED TO SPARE HIM BECAUSE HIS ARABIC WAS GOOD AND HE WAS ON THEIR SIDE.

THEN HE WATCHED HIS FRIENDS EXECUTED IN FRONT OF HIM .

THE STORIES ARE HAPPENING AND WE CAN'T LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS OFF THE CHARTS.

THE AMOUNT OF WOMEN THAT WE INTERVIEWED THAT HAVE BEEN AS A WEAPON OF WAR.

WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE THIS GENERATION OF PEOPLE ?

SOME OF SUFFERED THIS TWICE NOW IN THEIR LIFETIMES.

I THINK ANN IS RIGHT THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT, BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE TIME FOR SOMEONE TO STEP UP AND TRY TO MEDIATE THIS.

>> LINDSAY AND DAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

THANK YOU.