>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSORS JENNIFER HIRSCH, PROFESSOR SHAMUS KHAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> I WAS SO EXCITED TO FIND YOUR BOOK BECAUSE YOU ARE ASKING THE QUESTION THAT I HAVE BEEN ASKING.

SO OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS IS THAT A FORMER CORNELL STUDENT FILED A LAWSUIT ALLEGING THAT SEVEN FRATERNITY MEMBERS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED HER IN 2024.

ALL SEVEN HAVE DENIED WRONGDOING, THAT ACCORDING TO ABC NEWS.

AND NO CRIMINAL CHARGES HAVE BEEN FILED.

AND YOU INTERVIEWED STUDENTS, MORE THAN 150 STUDENTS AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY AND BARNHEARD COLLEGE.

YOU SPENT HOURS OBSERVING CAMPUS LIFE.

SO PROFESSOR HIRSCH WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THESE ALLEGATIONS GIVEN THE WORK YOU'VE DONE IN THIS AREA, WHAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT CAME TO YOUR MIND?

>> I WAS NOT SURPRISED BECAUSE UNTIL PEOPLE START THINKING ABOUT PREVENTION, THIS IS GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING.

THE WORK THAT SHAMUS AND I HAVE DONE SHOWS HOW SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS BUILT INTO THE CAMPUS ENVIRONMENT, AND HOW IT'S NOT --REALLY IT'S NOT JUST A CAMPUS PROBLEM, IT'S AN EVERYONE PROBLEM.

AND IT MIGHT SEEM SORT OF GRIM FOR US TO SAY IT'S BUILT INTO THE ENVIRONMENT, EXCEPT ONCE YOU SEE HOW CAMPUSES ARE AN ASSAULTGENIC ENVIRONMENT, THEN WE CAN THINK ABOUT WHAT'S REQUIRED TO BUILD IT OUT.

>> OKAY, TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT.

LIKE WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> SO TWO THINGS THAT WE DISCUSS IN THE BOOK.

THE FIRST IS THAT STUDENTS ARE NOT BEING PREPARED TO BE SEXUAL PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T HURT OTHER PEOPLE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT DRIVING, THEY DON'T LET THE KIDS GRAB THE KEYS WHEN THEY'RE DRUNK AND JUST SORT OF LOOK AROUND AND BE LIKE, HUH, I HOPE IT WORKS OUT FOR THEM.

IT'S SCARY AS A PARENT WHEN YOUR KID LEARNS TO DRIVE, BUT YOU MAKE SURE THEY GET PRACTICE BEHIND THE WHEEL.

YOU DON'T JUST SHOW THEM PICTURES OF CAR CRASHES.

AND SO WE'RE NOT --AND I SAY WE AS A SOCIETY.

THAT MEANS PARENTS.

IT MEANS K-12 SCHOOLS, WE'RE NOT LAYING THE FOUNDATION FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION.

WE SOLIN OUR RESEARCH THAT YOUNG WOMEN WHO HAD COMPREHENSIVE SEX ED BEFORE THEY STARTED COLLEGE WERE HALF AS LIKELY TO BE RAPED.

THERE'S PRETTY MUCH A VACCINE AND POLY MAKERS HAVE CHOOSING NOT TO GIVE IT TO PEOPLE.

>> PROFESSOR KHAN, I'LL TURP TO YOU IN THIS.

I WANT TO KNOW WHY A MAN, ANY MAN WANTS TO DO THIS TO A PERSON, ANOTHER PERSON, ESPECIALLY A PERSON THAT HE KNOWS.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE FIND AND THAT SO MANY RESEARCHERS FIND IS THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF SEXUAL ASSAULTS DON'T HAPPEN TO STRANGERS.

THEY HAPPEN WITHIN FRIENDSHIP COMMUNITIES, AND THAT SHOULD MAKE SENSE TO MOST OF US.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE SEX WITH STRANGERS.

THEY HAVE SEX WITH PEOPLE THAT THEY KNOW.

AND IN MANY INSTANCES WHAT WE FIND IS THAT MOST SEXUAL ASSAULTS ARE CONSENSUAL UNTIL THEY'RE NOT.

THEY HAPPEN IN CONTEXTS WHERE PEOPLE FREQUENTLY WANT SOME KIND OF SEXUAL EXPERIENCE, AND THEN THAT TURNS TO SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T WANT ANYMORE.

AND THIS IS PART OF WHAT MAKES SEXUAL VIOLENCE PREVENTION SO CHALLENGING ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WALK IN WILLINGLY TO ROOMS.

MOST PEOPLE WANT SOME KIND OF PHYSICAL CONTACT.

AND WHERE THINGS GO WRONG IS WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN.

AND WE MAY --WE SEE A LOT OF DYNAMICS HERE THAT ARE REALLY COMMON, WHICH IS LIKE PRESSURES OF GROUPS, THE ININVOLVEMENT OF ALCOHOL, WHICH MAKES US MUCH LESS LIKELY TO HEAR ONE ANOTHER AND OTHER KINDS OF DRUG.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD ALSO JUST FINALLY NOTE THAT THIS IS A VERY DRAMATIC STORY.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF ASSAULTS THAT ARE NOT THIS STORY.

THIS IS NOT THE MOST COMMON KIND OF ASSAULT THAT YOU WOULD SEE ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS.

AS WE LOOK AT THIS CASE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO ASK HOW CAN WE PREVENT THIS CASE, BUT ALSO HOW CAN WE PREVENT SO MANY OTHER INSTANCES OF ASSAULT THAT ARE NOT AS DRAMATIC, WILL NOT CATCH THE HEADLINES IN THE SAME WAY BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE GROUPS OF MEN IN FRATERNITIES AND DRUG USE AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT TEND TO CATCH OUR IMAGINATION.

>> WHAT'S THE MOST COMMON KIND OF ASSAULT?

>> IN OUR RESEARCH WE FOUND THAT ABOUT HALF OF THE ASSAULTS INVOLVED ALCOHOL, WHICH MEANS ABOUT HALF OF THEM DIDN'T.

THERE WERE A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER THAT HAPPENED IN ONGOING INTIMATE PARTNER RELATIONSHIPS.

THERE'S ALSO UNWANTED SEXUAL TOUCHING.

AND SO YOU CAN'T SOLVE A PROBLEM IF YOU CAN'T MAP THE PROBLEM.

AND THERE'S NOT --BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ONE KIND OF ASSAULT, IT MEANS THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ONE SOLUTION.

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT GETTING AT THIS WITH MULTIPLE DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS.

>> SO --SO LET ME GO BACK TO THE CORNELL CASE.

THE ALLEGATIONS HERE ARE THAT DOZENS OF YOUNG MEN WERE PART OF THIS SNAPCHAT GROUP.

AND THE JANE DOE IN QUESTION SAYS AND WAS HONEST ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE KNEW THE FIRST PERSON THAT SHE ENCOUNTERED.

THAT SHE DID AGREE TO A SEXUAL ENCOUNTER WITH THAT PERSON AND WAS INVITED TO WITH ANOTHER PERSON.

SO SHE ACKNOWLEDGES ALL OF THIS.

BUT THEN THERE WAS THIS INVITATION, WHICH THERE'S DOCUMENTATION FOR, THAT WENT OUT TO DOZENS OF MEN TO COME AND PARTICIPATE IN THIS.

AND THAT IS WHAT SHE SAYS SHE DID NOT CONSENT TO.

SO, AGAIN, I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO THE MEN.

LIKE, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT?

>> THIS IS A GROUP OF MEN WHO ARE TIED TO A FRATERNITY SYSTEM WHERE, LIKE, STATUS IS A REALLY BIG PART OF THEIR SOCIAL INTERACTIONS.

AND ACTUALLY STATUS IS A REALLY BIG PART OF SEXUAL ENCOUNTERS.

LIKE, WE HAVE AN ENTIRE LANGUAGE FOR THIS.

SO WE TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE IS IN YOUR LEAGUE OR NOT IN YOUR LEAGUE.

I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANT ROLE OF ALCOHOL AND OTHER KINDS OF DRUG USE WITHIN THIS SITUATION AND SEE HOW, YOU KNOW, WITHIN FRATERNITY LIFE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IT DOES IS IT CONCENTRATES A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO DRINK.

AND IT GIVES THEM CONTROL OVER PARTY SPACES ON CAMPUS.

IF WE LOOK AT NATIONAL STATISTICS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE IS THAT MEN DRINK MORE THAN WOMEN.

THAT WHITE AMERICANS, WHICH FRATERNITIES ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY WHITE, DRINK MORE THAN OTHER RACIAL AND ETHNIC GROUPS.

AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT FRATERNITIES ARE ALLOWED TO THROW PARTIES WITH ALCOHOL AND SORORITIES AREN'T.

WE'VE DESIGNED A CAMPUS WHERE PEOPLE WHO CONTROL SPACES WHERE PARTIES CAN HAPPEN ARE THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DRINK THE MOST.

AND THAT IS A DESIGN FEATURE THAT I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO INTERROGATE AND ASK, LIKE, HOW IS IT THAT WE COLLECTIVELY HAVE FACILITATED THIS KIND OF DYNAMIC RATHER THAN WORKED TO PREVENT IT?

>> PROFESSOR HIRSCH, GO BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER ABOUT HOW YOU FOUND THAT IF YOU CAN -- THAT GIRLS, YOUNG WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO HAVE HAD SOME KIND OF COMPREHENSIVE EDUCATION ARE FAR LESS LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE THIS.

CAN YOU JUST SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

LIKE WHAT IS THE INOCULATING EFFECT THERE?

>> RIGHT, SO SEX IS A SOCIAL ACT, NOT A COGNITIVE ACT.

SO THE CONSENT EDUCATION THAT YOUNG PEOPLE GET WHEN THEY START COLLEGE IS FREQUENTLY IT'S INFORMATION ABOUT CONSENT, BUT IT'S NOT SKILLS BIDDING.

AND SO WHAT HAPPENS IN GOOD AGE APPROPRIATE COMPREHENSIVE SEX EDUCATION IS LEARNING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WANT IN SEX AND IN LEARNING TO COMMUNICATE THAT.

AND THERE'S NOT EMPIRICAL RESEARCH ON THIS, BUT CONCEPTUAL WORK WE'VE DONE SHOWS THAT AGE APPROPRIATE SEX ED SHOULD ALSO TEACH MEN NOT TO RAPE PEOPLE.

HONESTLY, THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO BE GOING.

IT'S NOT JUST SEX ED WILL WORK FROM BEING RAPED BUT SEX ED WILL KEEP OTHER PEOPLE FROM BEING HURT THROUGH SEX.

>> BUT THE PART ABOUT THIS THAT'S DIFFICULT TO PROCESS IS THAT YOU'RE IN CLASS WITH THESE PEOPLE, RIGHT?

YOU'RE GOING TO SCHOOL WITH THESE PEOPLE.

YOU'RE IN THE DINING HALL WITH THESE PEOPLE.

YOU'RE STUDYING WITH THEM.

SO I JUST AM HAVING A HARD TIME SEEING HOW THAT TURNS INTO THEN TREATING THIS PERSON LIKE AN OBJECT WHERE YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD AT SOME POINT DON'T RAPE PEOPLE, DON'T RAPE CLASSMATES.

>> THE MORAL LANGUAGE WE USED TO TALK ABOUT THIS IS SEXUAL CITIZENSHIP, THAT YOUNG PEOPLE NEED TO COME INTO ADULTHOOD UNDERSTANDING THAT, YES, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE SEXUAL EXPERIENCE AND OTHER PEOPLE AROUND THEM ALSO HAVE THAT SAME RIGHT, THAT THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM ARE EQUIVALENT HUMAN BEINGS.

AND SO IT'S A FAILURE TO TEACH AND TO ABSORB THAT FUNDAMENTAL VALUES MESSAGE.

YES, THERE'S CLEARLY A VALUES QUESTION HERE, AND WE THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ZOOM OUT.

SO WE WANT TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH YOU ABOUT THE FULL RANGE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE THAT HAPPENS.

THE HIGHEST RATES ARE ACTUALLY AMONG QUEER STUDENTS.

AND MEN ALSO EXPERIENCE SEXUAL VIOLENCE PERPETRATED BY WOMEN.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS SUPER NOTABLE WHEN WE TALKED TO THESE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS ON CAMPUS IS SO MANY OF THEM DESCRIBED WHAT WERE ASSAULT EXPERIENCES AND SEX.

INSTANCES WHERE YOUNG MEN TOLD US ABOUT TIMES THAT THEY HAD SEX WITH WOMEN WHO WERE SO DRUNK THEY COULDN'T CONSENT, WHO DESCRIBED EXPERIENCES WITH MEN WHERE THEY CLEARLY SAID NO, AND THEY DESCRIBED IT AS HAVING SEX.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REASONS WE COME BACK TO SEX ED IS PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF AN AMERICAN CULTURE OF IGNORANCE AND CHAIN AROUND SEX AND SEXUALITY.

ONE YOUNG WOMAN TOLD US WHEN WE ASKED ABOUT ALCOHOL AND SEX, SHE SAID IT'S LIKE NOVOCAIN BEFORE THE DENTIST.

YOU GET NUMB BEFORE IT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

AS PART OF HER OWN UPBRINGING, A FEELING OF FEELING PROFOUNDLY SHAMEFUL FOR HAVING SEXUAL DESIRES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

FOR MEN, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO LITTLE THAT THEY LEARN ABOUT SEX BECAUSE OF OUR SILENCE AROUND IT.

AND WHERE DO THEY LEARN ABOUT IT?

THEY LEARN ABOUT IT FROM PORN.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF WE BASICALLY HAVE DECIDED THAT YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY ARE GOING TO LEARN ABOUT HAVING SEX BY WATCHING PORNOGRAPHY, LIKE WE HAVE DONE WRONG TO THEM.

>> ACCORDING TO THE CDC MORE THAN ONE IN SIX AMERICAN MEN HAVE EXPERIENCED SOME FORM OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE INVOLVING PHYSICAL CONTACT.

AND YOU ALSO, AS YOU JUST POINTED OUT, CHALLENGE THE ASSUMPTION THAT SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS EXCLUSIVELY SOMETHING THAT MEN DO TO WOMEN.

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IN THE CONTEXT OF SAME SEX RELATIONSHIPS OR QUEER RELATIONSHIPS OR WE TALK IN CATHUN TEXT OF MEN BEING PRESSURED INTO SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS THEY DID NOT WANT TO HAVE?

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TWO THINGS.

HETEROSEXUAL MEN ARE TAUGHT WITH A VERY MARKETED GENDER SCRIPT, WHERE MEN ARE THE ONES WHO MOVE THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD AND WOMEN ARE THE BLOCKERS.

WE ASKED ONE YOUNG WOMAN ABOUT CONSENT FROM HER BOYFRIEND, AND SHE LOOKED OUGHT US LIKE WE HAD TWO HEADS.

LIKE WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

GUYS GET CONSENT, THEY DON'T GIVE IT.

SO THE ASSUMPTION MEN ALWAYS WANT TO HAVE SEX, THAT THE PENIS IS BAROMETER OF DESIRE MEANS FOR MEN WHO EXPERIENCE UNWANTED SEXUAL CONTACT, SOMETIMES THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO LABEL WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AS ASSAULT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SEE THEMSELVES AS A VICTIM IN THE WAY PEOPLE TALK ABOUT VICTIMS ON CAMPUS.

HONESTLY THEY FEEL THEY WON'T BE BELIEVED OR BE MADE FUN OF.

WE DID HAVE ONE YOUNG MAN WHO EXPERIENCED ASSAULT AND TOLD HIS FATHER.

AND HIS FATHER BASICALLY LAUGHED AND SAID THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALSO THAT WE HAVE A VIEW OF ASSAULT, THAT ASSAULT IS COMMITTED BY PREDATORS.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT LANGUAGE REALLY REVEALS SOMETHING ABOUT US BECAUSE IF WE THINK THAT ASSAULT IS JUST COMMITTED BY PREDATORS, THEN IT'S JUST LIKE THERE'S SOME BAD PEOPLE OUT THERE.

AND IF WE GET RID OF THEM, SOCIETY'S GOING TO BE BETTER OR OUR COMMUNITY'S GOING TO BE BETTER.

BUT THERE'S A KIND OF MORE INCONVENIENT AND UNCOMFORTABLE REALITY, WHICH IS THAT THIS IS AN EXPERIENCE THAT IS SO COMMON.

IT'S SO COMMON AMONG THE DISABLED WHO HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST RATES OF ASSAULT AMONG THE LGBTQ POPULATION.

IT'S COMMON AMONG MEN.

IT'S INCREDIBLY COMMON AMONG WOMEN, THAT IT'S NOT JUST PREDATORS OUT THERE COMMITTING ASSAULTS.

IT IS OUR FRIENDS.

IT IS OUR FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO SEE THAT IN ORDER TO PREVENT THIS, WE CAN'T JUST COME AT IT WITH AN IDEA THAT WE JUST FIND THE FEW PEOPLE AND PUNISH OUR WAY OUT OF IT.

WHAT WE HAVE TO THINK IS LIKE A MORE FUNDAMENTAL AND PROFOUND REDESIGN OF OUR COMMUNITIES IN TERMS OF HOW WE GIVE PEOPLE THE LANGUAGE TO TALK ABOUT SEX, HOW WE, LIKE, TEACH THEM HOW TO BE IN SEXUAL SITUATIONS, AND THEN HOW WE BUILD OUR PHYSICAL ENVIRONMENTS SO THAT PEOPLE AREN'T PUSHED INTO SPACES WHERE THIS IS MUCH MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN.

>> SO LET'S GO BACK TO THIS WHOLE QUESTION OF SAME GENDER RELATIONSHIPS.

I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER THING THAT MIGHT BE SURPRISING TO SOME PEOPLE.

HOW DOES THIS UNFOLD?

IS THERE ANOTHER SCENARIO?

>> SOME OF THE DYNAMICS ARE QUITE SLR TO SIS HETERO STUDENTS.

IT'S EITHER ONE PERSON IS SEVERELY INCOXICATED OR VULNERABLE, BUT THEN IT ALSO HAPPENS IN ONGOING RELATIONSHIPS.

ONE YOUNG MAN CAME FROM THE MIDWEST, AND HE CARED DEEPLY ABOUT HIS BOYFRIEND EXCEPT, AS HE TOLD US, HIS BOYFRIEND WAS SOMETIMES A LITTLE FORCEFUL ABOUT SEX.

AND THEN HE DESCRIBED A TIME THAT HIS BOYFRIEND CAME BACK TO HIS ROOM AND IN HIS WORDS BASICALLY RAPED HIM.

AND STUDENTS DON'T WANT TO USE THE WORD RAPE.

AND SO WHEN THEY SAY BASICALLY RAPED, THEY MEAN RAPED.

HE CERTAINLY DIDN'T REPORT HIS BOYFRIEND.

HE LOVED HIS BOYFRIEND.

AND SO IN ADDITION TO ASSAULT IN RELATIONSHIPS AND ASSAULT UNDER CONDITIONS OF INTOXICATION, THERE'S THE QUESTION OF QUEER SOLIDARITY AND OF NOT WANTING TO EXPLODE --A WORLD IN WHICH PEOPLE HAVE A PROJECT OF COLLECTIVE SURVIVAL, WHERE THEY HAVE A SHARED PROJECT OF HOLDING COMMUNITY WITH EACH OTHER.

>> YEAH.

I THINK ALSO FOR A LOT OF QUEER STUDENTS, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GROWN UP IN A CONTEXT WHERE THERE'S AN IMPOSSIBILITY OF YES.

WHAT WE MEAN BY THAT IS THEY GROW UP IN CONTEXTS WHERE THEIR GENDER IDENTITY ISN'T LEGITIMATE OR THEIR SEXUAL IIDENTITY ISN'T LEGITIMATE.

AND THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF YES MAKES NO, LIKE, EVEN MORE IMPOSSIBLE.

AND SO MANY OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT WE TALKED TO, THEY FELT LIKE THEIR SEXUAL DESIRES WERE ILLEGITIMATE.

AND THAT MADE ASSERTING SEXUAL BOUNDARIES OR EVEN, YOU KNOW, FREELY INHABITING THEIR OWN SEXUAL DESIRES ENORMOUSLY DIFFICULT.

>> YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT HOW RACE ALSO CAN SHAME EXPERIENCES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

IN YOUR RESEARCH YOU SAID THAT BLACK WOMEN WERE TWICE AS LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE UNWANTED SEXUAL TOUCHING WHILE ONE BLACK MALE STUDENT WAS SO WORRIED ABOUT BEING FALSELY ACCUSED AFTER CONSENSUAL SEX WITH A WHITE WOMAN, THAT HE SECRETLY RECORDED HER AFTERWARD.

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

>> WE CAN'T UNDERSTAND SEXUAL VIOLENCE ON CAMPUS.

IN FACT, WE CAN'T UNDERSTAND SEXUAL VIOLENCE MORE GENERALLY WITHOUT LOOKING AT MULTIPLE INTERSECTING FORMS OF INEQUALITY.

SO RACE AND GEND, A REALLY POWERFUL ONE.

SO WHEN ALL OF THE BLACK WOMEN WHO TOLD US STORIES OF EXPERIENCING UNWANTED TOUCHING ON CAMPUS, THOSE WEREN'T JUST EXPERIENCES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE, THOSE WERE EXPERIENCES OF RACIST BEHAVIOR.

AND SO THAT GOES EXACTLY TO WHY TELLING STUDENTS ABOUT CONSENT IS NOT GOING TO GET US TO THE WORLD WE NEED BECAUSE WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT RACISM AND GENDER INQUALITY ARE INTERTWINED.

YES, THE BLACK MEN WE SPOKE TO ON CAMPUS SAW DRUNK SEX AS SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT SAFE FOR THEM, THAT IT WAS SORT OF A PRIVILEGE OF WHITE MASCULINITY BECAUSE IT WAS TOO DANGEROUS.

THERE'S A WHOLE HISTORY IN AMERICA OF BLACK MEN BEING ACCUSED OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE THEY WERE PAINFULLY COGNIZANT OF.

>> BEFORE WE LET EACH OF YOU GO, WHAT ARE SOME THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE THIS DIFFERENT?

HOW COULD THIS BE DIFFERENT?

>> WHEN WE SAY SEXUAL ASSAULT IS BUILT INTO CAMPUS LIFE, WE MEAN IN A VERY CONCRETE WAY THROUGH THINGS LIKE HOUSING POLICIES THAT GIVE THE BEST SPACES TO OLDER STUDENTS.

AND SO FIRST AND SECOND YEAR STUDENTS ARE FUNNELED INTO SPACES CONTROLLED BY OLDER MEN.

OKAY, THAT'S MODIFIABLE.

ONE CAMPUS THAT WE WORKED WITH IN CONVERSATION ABOUT SPACE DECIDED TO BRING BACK THE FIRE PITS THEY HAD DURING COVID BECAUSE THOSE WERE SPACES THAT STUDENTS WHO WANTED TO HANG OUT WITH THEIR FRIENDS AT NIGHT COULD JUST BOOK AND ROAST MARSHMALLOWS AND ZOOM AND SING, WHATEVER AND NOT BE IN A SPACE CONTROLLED BY WHOEVER WAS IN THEIR FRIEND GROUP.

THERE'S LOTS OF CAMPUS THAT UNDERSTAND THEY NEED FOR STUDENTS TO BE IN COMMUNITY AND THINK ABOUT WHAT IS THE SPATIAL DESIGN THAT WOULD FOSTER COMMUNITY.

AND THE OTHER THING WE'LL SAY AND CONTINUE TO SAY IS COMPREHENSIVE SEX ED.

I THINK THAT REMINDS US THAT THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE STUDENTS EXPERIENCE ON CAMPUS IS NOT JUST A CAMPUS PROBLEM.

AND ALSO LOTS OF KIDS DON'T GO TO COLLEGE, AND RATES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AMONG WOMEN THIS AGE ARE ACTUALLY HIGHER FOR THE WOMEN WHO ARE NOT IN COLLEGE.

THIS STORY IS TEARING AT ALL OF OUR HEARTS, AND I THINK WE NEED TO EXPERIENCE IT WITH COMPASSION BUT ALSO REMEMBER WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO SOLVE THE BIGGER PROBLEM.

>> PROFESSOR SHAMUS KHAN, PROFESSOR JENNIFER HIRSCH, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> IT'S SUCH A PLEASURE.