DESPITE LENGTHY NEGOTIATIONS, IT APPEARS THE WAR RUSSIA LAUNCHED AGAINST UKRAINE IS NO CLOSER TO ENDING.

RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN AIDES REPORTED FIVE HOURS OF CONVERSATIONS IN MOSCOW EARLIER THIS WEEK PRODUCED PROGRESS BUT DURING A VISIT TO INDIA, PRESIDENT PUTIN THREATENED TO LIBERATE THE DONBAS REGION, BY MILITARY OR OTHER MEANS THAT IS EASTERN UKRAINE.

A UKRAINIAN DELEGATION HEADS TO FLORIDA TO MEET WITH U.S.

OFFICIALS IN A BID FOR A CEASE- FIRE.

JOSHUA YAFFA, CONTRIBUTOR WRITER FOR THE NEW YORKER HAS REPORTED ON THE WAR SINCE 2022 AND HE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO STOP IT.

>> JOSHUA, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, WE TALKED AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS CONFLICT, THE BEGINNING OF THIS ALL OUT INVASION OF UKRAINE, ARE YOU SURPRISED WE ARE HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION FOR YEARS LATER?

>> HARD TO THINK BACK TO THOSE EARLY DAYS OF THE WAR, WHEN I WAS IN KYIV, AND WE SPOKE, I THINK I WAS IN A SUBWAY STATION.

>> YEAH, YOU WERE.

>> SHELTERING WITH OTHER RESIDENTS OF THE CITY WHERE ACTUALLY MANY RESIDENTS OF KYIV STILL GO TO SHELTER FROM RUSSIAN AIR ATTACKS, SO THERE IS A KIND OF SAD, TRAGIC, GROUNDHOG DAY, AND HOW IT FEELS FOR THE PEOPLE IN UKRAINE.

REALLY, THE DYNAMICS OF THE WAR, WHY THE WAR STARTED AND HOW IT MIGHT END, THEY HAD STAYED REMARKABLY CONSTANT, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY, RUSSIA, PUTIN, HE WOULD SEEK TO SEVERELY LIMIT OR IF NOT NEGATE UKRAINIAN SOVEREIGNTY, TO LIMIT BOTH POLITICALLY, CERTAINLY MILITARILY, OR THE KIND OF POTENTIAL THAT UKRAINE HAS TO CHART ITS OWN COURSE, ESPECIALLY IF THAT MEANS GROWING CLOSER WITH THE WEST AND ABOVE ALL, MELT MILITARILY THROUGH NATO.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT PUTIN SEEKS TO NOT JUST LIMIT BUT ESSENTIALLY, TAKE OFF THE TABLE FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.

IT'S A HISTORICAL PROJECT FOR HIM.

UKRAINE, LOOKS TO PRESERVE THAT SOVEREIGNTY, RIGHT?

LOOKS TO PRESERVE ITS SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO CHART ITS OWN HISTORICAL PATH, CULTURALLY, POLITICALLY, MILITARILY, RIGHT, THE MILITARY ASPECT IS SEEN AS A WAY OF PROTECTING THE OTHER REALMS, SO, WHAT PUTIN SEEKS TO ACHIEVE IS GOING, IT'S EXACTLY WHAT UKRAINE CONSIDERS A NONSTARTER, SOMETHING IT CAN'T AGREE TO AS IT UNDERSTANDS, FOR SURVIVAL OF THE NATION, SO, WE ARE AT LOGGERHEADS, WE ARE AT A WAR THAT GRINDS ON.

HE SIGHED, THINKING THAT A BIT MORE TIME CAN IMPROVE ITS POSITION, MAINLY BECAUSE IT WILL EXHAUST ITS OPPONENT, AND THAT'S REALLY THE GRINDING LOGIC OF THE WAR THAT WE ARE STILL STUCK IN FOUR YEARS LATER.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW IS THAT WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A FLURRY OF DIPLOMATIC MOVES.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ENVOY, STEVE WITKOFF, HIS FORMER GOLF BUDDY, FELLOW REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER AND HIS SON-IN-LAW, JARED KUSHNER, THEY CONCLUDED THIS HOURS LONG SESSION WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, AND THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT HAS BEEN BACK AND FORTH TO EUROPE, TRYING TO SHORE UP SUPPORT THERE.

THIS COMES AFTER, THIS LENGTHY SORT OF PEACE PROPOSAL WAS PUT ON THE TABLE, EXTENSIVELY, CRAFTED BY THE UNITED STATES BUT IT'S EMERGED THAT IT WAS INITIALLY BASED ON RUSSIA'S TALKING POINTS.

SO THE FIRST THING I WANTED TO ASK YOU, IS, DOES THIS FLURRY OF DIPLOMACY MEAN ANYTHING TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WE SEEN SO FAR?

DOES IT SEEM LIKE THERE'S ANY KIND OF INFLECTION POINT OR IS IT JUST ANOTHER DAY?

>> THERE ARE SOME NEW DYNAMICS, DESPITE WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT A MINUTE AGO, THE KIND OF LOGIC OF THE WAR HAS RAINED CONSTANT, COURSE THERE ARE DYNAMICS THAT COME UP, YOU LOOK AT THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, DONALD TRUMP, AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS A DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT POSITION REGARDING RUSSIA, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO GO OVER HIS HISTORY OF CONCILIATORY STATEMENTS AGAINST PUTIN BUT I THINK WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT IS TRUMP'S DESIRE TO END THE WAR, IF PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD A DESIRE TO END THE WAR IN A WAY THAT HE AND HIS EUROPEAN PARTNERS WOULD DELIVER, KIND OF BOTH DURABLE AND JUST PEACE FOR UKRAINE, TRUMP IS INTERESTED IN GETTING A DIPLOMATIC VICTORY, HIS NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LIKE FOR EXAMPLE WAS THE GAZA DEAL FROM LAST FALL WHERE HOW THE WAR ENDED WAS LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE FACT THAT HE DID AND, SO IT FLOWS FROM THAT, THAT IT'S ONLY NATURAL IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN SPEED, THAT YOU EFFECTIVELY PUT PRESSURE ON THE WEAKER PARTY, AND THAT IS UKRAINE, AND UKRAINE IS THE WEAKER PARTY FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, CERTAINLY BY LOOKING AT THE BATTLEFIELD DYNAMICS, THE RUSSIAN ARMY, OBJECTIVELY, MUCH LARGER, IT'S MOVING FORWARD, AND UKRAINE IS LOSING TERRITORY.

AT THE SAME TIME, UKRAINE IS UNDER INCREASING FINANCIAL PRESSURE, THE UKRAINE BUDGET CAN BE RUNNING OUT OF CASH EFFECTIVELY, AND THE POLITICAL CRISIS STEMMING FROM A CORRUPTION SCANDAL IN UKRAINE THAT IT'S REALLY CLOSE TO ZELENSKYY, PEOPLE AROUND HIM, HIS LONGTIME CHIEF OF STAFF, RIGHT-HAND MAN, WAS FORCED TO RESIGN THIS WEEK UNDER THE SPECTER OF A CORRUPTION ALLEGATION.

ALL THAT COMES TOGETHER TO PUT UKRAINE IN A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT AND VULNERABLE POSITION, AND IT'S THAT POSITION THAT RUSSIA HOPES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL EFFECTIVELY EXPLOIT.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL BE SO INTERESTED IN A PEACE DEAL, FAST, AND KIND OF REALLY TWIST UKRAINE'S ARM.

PUTIN THINKS THAT TIME WILL BRING HIM CLOSER TO VICTORY.

AS FAR AS PUTIN SEES IT, EITHER HE GETS THE DEAL THAT HE WANTS OR HE DOESN'T AND KEEPS FIGHTING AND THAT WILL GET HIM CLOSE TO THE DEAL HE WANTS, EVENTUALLY.

>> WHAT DOES PUTIN WANT?

THAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT THE 28 POINT PEACE PLAN THAT WAS BASED ON KIND OF A TRANSCRIPT OF THE LEAKED PHONE CALL THAT WAS REPORTED BY BLOOMBERG, WHERE THE PRESENCE ENVOY, STEVE WITKOFF, WAS OVERHEARD SPEAKING TO HIS RUSSIAN COUNTERPART, AND COACHING HIM ON HOW TO WIN OVER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT KIND OF LAID OUT RUSSIAN OBJECTIVES IN BLACK AND WHITE.

WHAT ARE THEY?

>> FIRST I WOULD CAUTION A LITTLE BIT OF SEEING THAT 28 POINT WITKOFF PLAN AS A PURE EXPRESSION OF RUSSIA OR PUTIN PRIORITIES, CERTAINLY THERE WAS RUSSIAN IMPORT -- INPUT, WE KNOW NOW ABOUT THE GENESIS OF THAT DOCUMENT BUT MY SOURCES IN MOSCOW, I WROTE ABOUT THIS IN THE NEW YORKER, THEY WERE ACTUALLY CAUTIOUS ABOUT THAT DOCUMENT, THESE ARE KIND OF POTENTIALLY, SON, KIND OF ATTRACTIVE FOR RUSSIA BUT HOW ARE THEY IMPLEMENTED, HOW CAN RUSSIA COUNT ON THEM?

EVEN TRUMP AS ONE SOURCE TELL -- TOLD ME, HE'S A TEMPORARY PHENOMENON, HE COULD BE OUT OF OFFICE IN THREE YEARS AND JUST LIKE POLICY SHIFTED DRAMATICALLY FROM BIDEN TO TRUMP, IT COULD SHIFT AGAIN.

NOW TO THE CORE QUESTION.

WHAT PUTIN ONCE AND HE SPOKE ABOUT THIS OPENLY.

HE THINKS UKRAINE HAS ESSENTIALLY BECOME, HE CALLS IT A QUOTE, ANTI-RUSSIAN PROJECT.

IT'S BEEN LED ASTRAY BY THE WEST, WITH ITS INTEGRATION WITH MILITARY STRUCTURES LIKE NATO, IT'S A HISTORICAL ABERRATION BUT THAT'S NOT UKRAINE'S PLACE AND IT'S BEING LET OUT OF RUSSIA'S RIGHTFUL SPEAR, AND THEY CAN'T TOLERATE THIS PRODUCT ON RUSSIAN BORDERS, THE IDEA THAT THERE WOULD BE FOREIGN MILITARY BASES, FOREIGN TROOPS STATIONED IN UKRAINE WITH UKRAINE THAT IS CULTURALLY AND HISTORICALLY REJECTING RUSSIA.

ALL IT FEELS LIKE A SECURITY THREAT, AS PUTIN SEES IT, IT'S A NONSTARTER, A NONSTARTER FOR RUSSIA AND FOR HIS OWN POLITICAL LEGACY THAT HE IS TRYING TO ENSURE, AND WE ARE DEALING WITH AN AUTOCRAT WHO'S BEEN IN POWER FOR 26 YEARS AND COUNTING, AND I THINK THAT AFFECTS HOW HE SEES THE WORLD AND HIS OWN PLACE IN RUSSIAN HISTORY.

WHAT THIS IS NOT ABOUT HIS TERRITORY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT LINES ON A MAP, IT'S NOT ABOUT, WHERE ARE THE BORDERS, WHO CONTROLS WHAT CITY?

ALL OF THOSE ISSUES ARE PROXIES FOR PUTIN'S REAL ISSUE WHICH IS THAT UKRAINE CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO BE A THREAT AS HE DEFINES IT.

>> AND WHY IS THE COST WORTH IT TO HIM?

WE'VE BEEN REPORTING IT, AND PR, WE REPORTED THAT HE'S LOSING AS MANY AS 25,000 SOLDIERS A MONTH.

WHAT MAKES IT WORTH THAT COST IN LIVES?

>> WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IS PUTIN'S INITIAL CALCULATION IN LAUNCHING THIS IS THAT THE UKRAINIAN ARMY WOULD CRUMBLE AND HE WOULD BE IN KYIV IN THREE DAYS.

HE HAS ENDED UP IN A WAR THAT HE NEVER COUNTED ON.

HE COUNTED ON SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

WHAT HE'S ENDED UP IN IS A WAR OF ATTRITION, AND THE GRIM, DARK LOGIC OF A WAR OF ATTRITION IS YOU WIN BY HAVING YOUR OPPONENT LOSE MORE.

SO EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID ABOUT LOSS OF TROOPS, COST OF THE ECONOMY, IT'S RELATIVE TO HOW THOSE FACTORS ARE WEIGHING ON UKRAINE, RIGHT, AND UKRAINE IS A SMALLER COUNTRY, ECONOMICALLY, POPULATION, AND THERE ARE LARGE QUESTIONS ABOUT UKRAINE'S ABILITY TO FIELD, THE MANPOWER QUESTION IS VERY REAL, AND THE FINANCIAL QUESTION ACCORDING TO SOME PROGNOSES, UKRAINE COULD BE IN SERIOUS FINANCIAL DEFICIT, RUNNING OUT OF CASH TO RUN THE COUNTRY BY THE FIRST QUARTER OF NEXT YEAR.

EUROPE, AS UKRAINE'S CHIEF FINANCIAL BACKER THAT THEY CAN'T SEEM TO GET A PLAN TOGETHER, THEY CAN'T SEEM TO GET THIS MONEY.

SO GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, THIS WAR IS INCREDIBLY, COSTLY FOR PUTIN.

HE WOULD LIKE FOR IT TO END, BUT, HIS CALCULATION IS THAT, HE CAN ACHIEVE HIS STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES WITH TIME BECAUSE THINGS ARE ACTUALLY WORSE FOR UKRAINE AND ITS UKRAINE THAT WOULD BE FORCED TO EFFECTIVELY BEND THE KNEE, FASTER THAN RUSSIA WILL RUN OUT OF, WHETHER IT'S TROOPS TO FUEL THE WORK, MONEY TO FUEL THE WAR AND SO ON.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE EUROPEAN POSITION.

THEY SAID IF RUSSIA IS REWARDED OR SUCCESSFUL IN INVADING UKRAINE, YOU KNOW, WHO'S NEXT?

COULD IT BE POLAND?

COULD IT BE MULLED OVER?

WHO'S NEXT?

THE QUESTION IS, WHY ISN'T THERE MORE URGENCY IN EUROPE AROUND SUPPORTING UKRAINE, AT LEAST GIVING THEM THE RESOURCES TO RESIST?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

WHEN I ASKED OFTEN AS A REPORTER WHO LIVES IN EUROPE.

I'M BASED IN BERLIN, I'M TALKING TO YOU FROM WARSAW, AND OF COURSE THE VIEW IN WARSAW IS DIFFERENT THAN THE VIEW IN BUDAPEST, HUNGARY OR IN A PLACE LIKE PORTUGAL, GREECE, RIGHT, FRONT LINE STATES AS THEY ARE CALLED, THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF THIS BUT THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM KIND OF HOW DO YOU TRIANGULATE POSITIONS IN THE STATES THAT HAVE DIFFERENT SENSES OF URGENCY, SOME ARE DEALING WITH THEIR OWN DOMESTIC SITUATIONS.

THERE'S APPETITE FOR TAKING OUT NEW LOANS, ESSENTIALLY HAVING TAXPAYERS FOOT THE BILL.

YOUR QUESTION REALLY, IS THE CORRECT ONE, AND I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO IT.

THE EUROPEANS WERE SO UPSET ABOUT THE EMERGENCE OF THESE 28 POINTS AND HOW IT WAS DONE, DIDN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT EUROPEAN INTEREST.

WHERE'S THE EUROPEAN PEACE PLAN?

A VACUUM WILL BE FILLED IN PERHAPS WAYS THAT YOU DON'T LIKE, BUT, I DIDN'T SEE EUROPEAN DIPLOMATS OUT IN FRONT OF THE EU LED PEACE PLAN.

THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO CREATE ONE AFTER WITKOFF AND THE 28 POINTS EMERGE BUT THAT WAS THE CASE DISCARDED BY RUSSIA AND TRUMP AND IT SEEMS LIKE EUROPE HASN'T ATTEMPTED SINCE.

AND ABOUT THE MONEY, THAT'S THE CRUX OF THE MATTER, EUROPEAN POLITICIANS, THEY SAY ALL THE RIGHT THINGS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE, THE STRATEGIC INTEREST IN MAKING SURE UKRAINE DOESN'T LOSE THE WAR, THAT RUSSIAN AGGRESSION CANNOT BE REWARDED, BUT WHERE, YOU KNOW, WHERE DOES THE RUBBER HIT THE ROAD?

>> YOU MENTIONED, WE DON'T KNOW -- WE DON'T NEED TO GO THROUGH THE LITANY OF STATEMENTS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE ABOUT PUTIN OVER THE YEARS BUT HAVE WE EVER FIGURED OUT WHY PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS SO DISPOSED TOWARDS THE RUSSIAN POSITION AND PUTIN, IN PARTICULAR?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY RUSSIAN COPPER MONT, I DON'T THINK HE'S AFRAID OF SOME TAPE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN MADE AND THE RITZ CARLTON A FEW YEARS AGO THAT WAS DISCUSSED ALMOST A DECADE AGO, NOW, I THINK THE ANSWER IS RATHER SIMPLE.

ONE, PUTIN IS A UNDERSTANDABLE KIND OF LEADER FOR TRUMP.

IT'S EASIER TO DEAL WITH PUTIN, STRONGMAN, UNITARY POWER IN HIS COUNTRY, ALSO, THE KIND OF MAN AND THE KIND OF LEADER THAT TRUMP, AGAIN, UNDERSTAND, ADVISE, KNOWS HOW TO DO BUSINESS WITH, AND IN THE CURRENT CONTEXT, I MENTIONED THIS EARLIER, WHAT TRUMP WANTS IS TO BE SEEN AS THE PEACEMAKER IN UKRAINE.

HE WANTS THE WAR TO BE OVER AND WANTS TO BE ABLE TO GO ON TRUTH SOCIAL AND SAY, I DID IT, I CREATED PEACE IN UKRAINE.

HE WANTS HIS NOBEL PRIZE, HE LIKE -- HE WANTS THE AURA THAT HE GOT IN GAZA, IT'S A PEACE PLAN WITH ALL OF THESE OTHER POINTS TO BE NEGOTIATED LATER, IS THAT HAPPENING?

I'M NO EXPERT ON THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT I THINK WHAT TRUMP WOULD LIKE IS SOMETHING SIMILAR IS THE HEADLINE OF PEACE AND THE PARTICULARS OF IT CAN BE DEALT WITH LATER OR NOT AT ALL.

>> YOU'VE BEEN IN AND OUT OF UKRAINE OVER THE COURSE OF THESE YEARS, AND YOU'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, CLEARLY THEY ARE WAR WEARY, DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HOW THEY VIEW THE CURRENT SITUATION?

HE POINTED OUT THAT THERE'S BEEN, BODY BLOW AFTER BODY BLOW, SOME OF THEM SELF- INFLICTED LIKE THIS CORRUPTION SCANDAL, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF MORALE?

>> WAR WEARY IS THE RIGHT WORD.

KYIV, HAS BEEN RELATIVELY SPARED, A SEMBLANCE OF LIFE CONTINUES DURING THE DAY, BUT YOU KNOW, REGULAR DRONE ATTACKS AT NIGHT BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY FOR DAILY LIFE, LONG STRETCHES OF BLACKOUT, HOURS AT A TIME, 10 HOURS OR MORE.

IT LEADS TO A SENSE OF EXHAUSTION, EVEN IN THE CAPITAL CITY, LIFE IS SO IMPACTED.

YOU ASK TENS OF MILLIONS OF UKRAINIANS ABOUT HOW THE WAR IS AND YOU WILL GET AS MANY MILLIONS OF RESPONSES BUT GENERALLY, I THINK THERE IS A WILLINGNESS TO END THE WAR, KNOWING IT'S NOT GOING TO END WITH A RESOUNDING RUSSIAN DEFEAT THAT UKRAINE GETS ALL OF ITS TERRITORY BACK AND UKRAINIANS UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE AN UGLY DEAL TO END THE WAR.

IT'LL BE UGLY AND UNFAIR FOR UKRAINE, THAT THE AGGRESSOR IN SOME WAY WILL BE AWARDED.

I THINK, WE ARE OBJECTIVELY ON THAT TRAJECTORY.

WHAT UKRAINIANS WANT ABOVE ALL IS THE SENSE THAT, FOR THE SACRIFICES, CERTAINLY FOR THE LIVES LOST, HUGE LOSSES IN THE MILITARY, CREDIBLE LOSSES THAT YOU, MYSELF, OTHER COLLEAGUES HAVE DOCUMENTED, AT LEAST, UKRAINE GAINS ARE SECURITY GUARANTEES, WHAT IT MEANS IS THE CONFIDENT HOPE THAT THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN IN ONE YEAR, TWO YEARS, FIVE YEARS, THAT THERE IS A DURABLE PEACE AND THAT MEANS A UKRAINE THAT IS SECURE, SOVEREIGN, OVER THE MEDIUM AND LONG TERM.

>> WHAT WILL YOU BE KEEPING YOUR EYES ON OVER THE NEXT MONTHS?

>> WELL, SO, UKRAINE, TO PUT IT SIMPLY, IS READY FOR COMPROMISE, REAL CONCESSIONS, NOT CAPITULATION.

WHEN UKRAINE IS READY TO MAKE PAINFUL CONCESSIONS TO END THE WAR, PUTIN ON THE OTHER HAND, IS STILL INSISTING ON HIS MAXIMALIST GOAL.

THE QUESTION IS, DO THOSE SHIFT AT ALL?

I THINK VICTORY IS AROUND THE CORNER SO I WILL KEEP ON PRESSING.

DOES ANYTHING IN HIS CALCULATION CHANGE?

DOES HE SOFTEN THOSE GOALS OR UNDERSTAND THAT OKAY, I WILL TAKE SEVEN OUT OF 10 OF THOSE POINTS, OR PERHAPS TWO THINGS, I'M NOT GETTING ANYWHERE, SO I BETTER DEAL WITH THEM.

RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO INDICATION OF EITHER THOSE DYNAMICS HAPPENING BUT SINCE UKRAINE IS WILLING TO MAKE A PAINFUL PIECE, IT'S THE BALL IN PUTIN'S COURT, DOES ANYTHING CHANGE, FOR RIGHT NOW, THE ANSWER IS NO BUT YOU KNOW, WARS CHANGE IN UNPREDICTABLE WAYS BUT AGAIN, KEEPING IN THE SAND THEME OF THIS CONVERSATION, I'M RATHER PESSIMISTIC.

I WOULD EXPECT THAT BUT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT COULD AFFECT THE DYNAMIC.

>> JOSHUA YAFFA, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US AGAIN.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.