♪ ♪ ♪ (theme music playing) ♪ RUBENSTEIN: I'm David Rubenstein, coming to you from the Robert Smith Auditorium of the New York Historical.

And we're gonna be in conversation with Harold Holzer, who has written more than 50 books on Abraham Lincoln.

Most recently, "Brought Forth on this Continent, Abraham Lincoln and the American Immigration."

So, let's ask a few opening questions, and then we'll go through his life if we could.

HOLZER: Sure.

RUBENSTEIN: So, um, in your view, he's by far the greatest president ever?

HOLZER: Yes, because he saved the country that was still fragile and still not a definite, enduring nation in the world.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, there've been 600 million people who've been Americans over the course of our country's history.

Is he the greatest American ever?

HOLZER: I mean, I think so.

Um, I, I should have said, in addition to saving the country, he purified it of the great hypocrisy that had afflicted it even after the Declaration.

So it was a country without slavery after Lincoln.

RUBENSTEIN: So why did he not abolish slavery right away?

He waited a couple years into his administration.

Why did he not, uh, just abolish slavery when he came President?

HOLZER: Because he didn't have the political power to do so.

He was bound by the constitutional acceptance of slavery, and he needed, actually needed the war to assume the power, uh, extraordinary powers as commander-in-chief.

And then do what needed to be done to cleanse the civilian laws as a military commander.

RUBENSTEIN: Had he not been assassinated, do you think Reconstruction would've worked much better?

HOLZER: I do.

I think he would've taken more time to bring necessary and deserved rights to people of color.

It would've infuriated the progressives who were called the radicals in those days.

Um, but it might have been more permanent.

So my speculation, and it's only speculation, is we might not have needed a, a, a Civil Rights movement in the, in the 1960s if Lincoln had lived through the 1860s.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, if Lincoln had not been assassinated on April the 14th, 1865, um, we don't know what woulda happened.

Maybe Reconstruction would've worked better, but let's go through Lincoln's life.

So was he born in Kentucky?

HOLZER: He was born in the, it sounds like a cliche, but he was born in a dirt-floor log cabin in Hodgenville, Kentucky.

One room, um, in the middle of a very cold winter.

RUBENSTEIN: And, uh, his mother did not live very long afterwards.

HOLZER: Nancy Hanks, uh, lived until Lincoln wa-was six or seven years old.

His father was a carpenter and, um, wanted Abraham to develop that skill.

And the, the torturous practice that he imposed on his son was that he would join him in nailing the coffin, the handmade coffin in which his mother's body was being placed.

RUBENSTEIN: And Abraham Lincoln's father, Thomas, was he the biological father, as some people have said, or some people say maybe not.

HOLZER: There have been speculations for 100 years about who, whether Thomas was the biological father, whether Nancy was the illegitimate offspring of a noble Kentucky planter, because many Americans could not get it through their head that a person of such quality and intelligence could rise from that kind of, obscurity.

RUBENSTEIN: Because his father moves from Kentucky, eventually to Indiana, and then they go to Illinois.

HOLZER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: And does he get along well with his father?

HOLZER: He doesn't.

Um, Thomas is, uh, one of those farmers who doesn't have nine sons to work the land.

He has one son.

And in those days, farmers needed children, and he eventually had a, a stepson who helped him on the farm.

But Abraham Lincoln was more about learning and, uh, self-education.

And there was a definite tension between them on how much time, uh, Lincoln should take for his studies.

RUBENSTEIN: And, but Lincoln became reasonably close to that, uh, second wife, right?

HOLZER: Very, very close to his stepmother.

RUBENSTEIN: And when Lincoln's father was on his deathbed, did Lincoln rush to see him?

HOLZER: He did the opposite of rushing.

There is a famous letter to his stepbrother, in which he says, uh, um, "I think it would be more painful for both of us if I came than if I stayed away.

Tell Father to pray for his immortal soul.

And, and hopefully he'll get into heaven."

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So Lincoln ultimately, uh, has schooling of one year at the most, or... HOLZER: One year in combination at most.

RUBENSTEIN: And so, where did he develop his love of reading?

HOLZER: I, I, I sort of think it's a book called “Scott's Elocution.” It's a book that not only teaches you gesture.

But also included Shakespearean soliloquies, um, philosophy, uh, recitations.

And I think this was the primer that gave him the urge, not only to read, but to read aloud and he claimed that only if he said something out loud, would it in, would it remain in his memory.

RUBENSTEIN: So, uh, when he goes to Illinois, he does a variety of things.

He ultimately moves away from his family and moves to New Salem.

And how does he become a lawyer?

He didn't go to law school.

HOLZER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: He didn't read the law with anybody who was a lawyer.

How did he become a lawyer with nothing?

HOLZER: It's interesting.

He ran for the state legislature first after doing a stint in the Home Guard in an Indian war.

He lost.

He did very well in New Salem.

He got all but 11 votes out of the 300 in New Salem.

He won the next time.

And then he began to study law.

As long as he was going to be a lawmaker, he thought it would be a good, good thing to do and a step up.

The, the man in New Salem, who had earlier given him "Scott's Elocution," gave him "Blackstone's Commentaries" and "Chitty's Proceedings," and he simply read them.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, did he become a successful lawyer?

HOLZER: He was a moderately successful lawyer.

He, uh, he was in the seventh circuit, which was huge, geographically.

So he spent six or seven months of the year riding with fellow's lawyers until court was open.

Then he would either be the prosecutor or the defense attorney, do five cases, and move to the next town.

RUBENSTEIN: But he argued, uh, 50 cases or something in front of the Illinois Supreme Court.

HOLZER: He did Illinois, he became a really good appeals lawyer, and he had some showcases.

He did a challenge to the McCormick Reaper exclusive patent on reapers.

He did railroad cases.

He actually did one case that's still cited in law.

RUBENSTEIN: Lincoln decides to run for Congress, and he serves, he agrees to serve only one term.

Um, and he actually kept that promise.

HOLZER: Well.

RUBENSTEIN: Did he, did he regret keeping that promise?

HOLZER: Oh, yeah, he tried not to keep the promise.

RUBENSTEIN: Oh.

HOLZER: It was, there were four Whigs who were really- RUBENSTEIN: What is a Whig?

What was a Whig?

HOLZER: Well, a Whig was an, uh, anti-Jacksonian who was, uh, supported, uh, national and state banks and internal improvements, which we now call infrastructure.

They were the opposition party to the Jacksonian's.

They weren't great on immigration.

So four talented Whigs all want to go to Congress.

They decide to take turns and serve two years each.

Not great for accumulating seniority, but Lincoln succeeded someone, then he, then he served one term, and when he got back, he really wanted the nomination.

RUBENSTEIN: But he served two years, one term.

And, uh, what did he do as a member of Congress?

Did he have any major legislation?

HOLZER: He was, uh, a big supporter of more internal improvements.

His most famous actions, or infamous, as it turned out to be, were widespread opposition to the Mexican-American War, which ended pretty quickly after he got there.

But he wanted investigations into the allegations by President Polk that the Mexicans had, in fact, crossed the border.

RUBENSTEIN: Did he introduce a bill to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia?

HOLZER: He co-signed a bill to abolish D.C.

slavery.

There were other bills that would've abolished, really abolished slavery.

Lincoln's bill said, abolish slavery in X number of years if the slave owners in Washington approve.

But even that was a bridge too far for Congress.

And he signed on to the, um, agreement that no territory, um, a, acquired from the Mexican War could be a slave territory.

RUBENSTEIN: So he goes back after he is done his term as a con, as congressman.

And, uh, how does he come to the position where he can run for the United States Senate?

HOLZER: In 1854, he has now spent, uh, four or five years as an attorney.

He's determined that his career is over.

He tried to get a federal appointment to be governor of Oregon Territory.

And he didn't get it.

And in 1854, Stephen Douglas introduced the Kansas-Nebraska Act, which would've opened slavery to Western territories.

Uh, and as Lincoln said, he was aroused back into politics, aroused into the fray as never before.

He began making speeches in Illinois and in neighboring states.

He got attracted a huge following of people who thought he was the answer to Douglass's hold, his lock on the Senate.

But he ran first in 1855 and almost got elected to the Senate for another seat.

But his coalition collapsed after a lot of ballots.

RUBENSTEIN: So the dispute is basically this, as I understand it, uh, some people that favored slavery said, we want to let the new states come in, have slavery.

Um, some people said, we don't wanna have slavery, and the way to kill it ultimately is to not let the new states have slavery.

And Douglass' view was let the each state decide what it wants to do.

HOLZER: Right, his, his view, which was called popular... RUBENSTEIN: Sovereignty.

HOLZER: ...Sovereignty, the, his opponents called it squatter sovereignty, was that white men could vote on whether to bring Black people in, in enslaved status, and or not.

And Lincoln thought there was no morality to that.

And so he opposed it.

Under no circumstances, he said, "Should slavery extend?"

RUBENSTEIN: But Lincoln ultimately gets in a position where he can run for the Senate in 1858.

HOLZER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: And senators were then picked by the state legislature.

HOLZER: Right.

And he made a deal with the party that if he ran this time, uh, because his supporters that abandoned him in the state legislature three years earlier, he would be the first and only choice.

And on that basis, even though it wasn't a popular election, people were voting for legislators.

He challenged Stephen Douglass to those memorable debates.

RUBENSTEIN: The consensus was that Lincoln did a better job of the debates than Douglas, would you say?

HOLZER: It depends what party newspaper you were reading.

The first debate, someone wrote, "Lincoln did so well that his supporters carried him off on their shoulders."

The Democratic paper wrote, "Lincoln did so poorly that his supporters had to carry him off the stage."

(laughter).

RUBENSTEIN: So, uh... HOLZER: That was what the reporting was like.

RUBENSTEIN: ....but the state legislature is controlled by Douglas's party.

So Douglas gets re-elected to the Senate.

HOLZER: He does.

RUBENSTEIN: So this is 1858, the election's over.

How does a defeated Senate candidate, serve one term in the House of Representatives, get to be the nominee of the Republican Party for president just two years later?

How did that happen?

HOLZER: Again, first of all, he made speech after speech.

He goes to Wisconsin.

He goes to Kansas.

He speaks in Illinois.

He is not the obvious candidate for president in 1860.

New York's former governor, Senator William Seward, is such an overwhelming choice that Seward decides to go to Europe to go on a grand tour when he should have been home securing more votes.

Lincoln gets invited to Cooper Union.

He made a huge hit.

Did not sway a single delegate, but got headlines around the country as, and he became everyone's second choice.

Seward came very close to winning the nomination on the first ballot, but it because he didn't, there was a surge to Lincoln.

RUBENSTEIN: Alright, so it's held in Chicago is where the convention's held, where Lincoln presumably has some local advantage 'cause people were, were from Illinois coming into the convention, cheering for him?

HOLZER: Well, not only did he have an natural advantage, he had an unnatural advantage because his workers gave out fake, uh, admission passes to the galleries.

So by the time the Seward men came to cheer their man on, the galleries were full.

And the Lincoln demonstrations were huge and probably impactful.

RUBENSTEIN: So he gets the nomination of the Republican Party.

He's the first nominee of the Republican Party.

It's a new party... HOLZER: Se-second.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

HOLZER: Fremont was in 1856.

RUBENSTEIN: Freemont, but this is a new party, more or less.

HOLZER: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: And four people running for president.

HOLZER: Four.

RUBENSTEIN: Lincoln.

Douglas.

HOLZER: Douglas.

RUBENSTEIN: Then- HOLZER: Uh- RUBENSTEIN: ...there are two others.

HOLZER: ...the Democratic Party had split in two because Douglas was not pro-slavery enough.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

HOLZER: So they nominated Vice President John Breckenridge, also of Kentucky.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

HOLZER: And then some of the, uh, old Whigs thought Lincoln was too radical.

So they nominated, uh, John Bell, uh... RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

HOLZER: ...For a new party called the Constitutional Union Party.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

So Lincoln wins with 39% of the popular vote.

HOLZER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And um... HOLZER: But a huge electoral majority.

RUBENSTEIN: And, he gets elected.

Uh, in those days, the election is in November, but the inauguration is in March.

HOLZER: March.

RUBENSTEIN: What does he do?

HOLZER: Um, he meets people, he greets people.

Office seekers come to beseech him for government positions.

And remember, he's clearing out the bureaucracy.

What he doesn't do is say anything conciliatory toward the southern states who already begin to secede in December.

South Carolina goes out and others- RUBENSTEIN: The southern states thinks that he ultimately is gonna abolish slavery, even though he said he would not.

HOLZER: Just the fact that he will not allow it to extend, they've accepted his theory that keeping slavery where it was would put it on what he called, "The Course of Ultimate Extinction."

So this, and they claim he wasn't elected by the whole country.

No one elected him here.

So he's the only sectional president in history.

Not quite true 'cause it was Jefferson Adams.

But they begin seceding.

RUBENSTEIN: So to get to Washington- HOLZER: And he won't speak.

During the whole interregnum, not a word to assure anybody or to get anybody excited, either.

RUBENSTEIN: Alright.

To get to Washington, has to take a train.

Um, the most, uh, direct route would be to go through the Southern states, but he can't do that 'cause... HOLZER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: ...he might be assassinated there.

And did he make a lot of speeches on that trip?

HOLZER: He gave two really fabulous speeches.

And it began when he gets to Trenton and sees the Hessian Barracks and becomes very inspirited with the story of the Declaration.

And he begins talking about these men were not just fighting to be in a military, uh, escapade.

There was something more.

It was about the fact that any, anyone could rise to the level of their talent here.

There was opportunity for all.

Then he gets to Philadelphia and learns that there's an assassination plot awaiting him in Baltimore.

And he says, "This is, I've never said anything that would criticize the Declaration of Independence."

And this is outside Independence Hall.

"I would rather be assassinated on this spot than to surrender it."

But he goes to Harrisburg, and there he's told you really can't do your public address in Baltimore.

It's a slavery city.

It's a secession city.

And he kind of, against his better judgment, he does take off the top hat.

He puts on a slouch hat.

He wears a big, uh, ankle-length overcoat.

In those days, the trains that came in from the South stopped at the terminus, and you had a change to a different railroad to go further south.

So, um, he crossed the platform in disguise.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So he switches trains, goes from Baltimore, gets into Washington, um, with a little bit of a disguise, and he goes to the Willard Hotel.

HOLZER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And why does he just stay in the Willard Hotel for 10 days?

Why doesn't he go, go around Washington having parties or anything?

HOLZER: Well, they think there's better security at the Willard.

And he also wants to, after that last leg of the journey, he wants to show that he's a public person.

RUBENSTEIN: So he has his inauguration.

HOLZER: He went to the Opera in New York.

He did do some fun social things.

RUBENSTEIN: His inaugural address, he had written before.

He gives the inaugural address.

Um, and in the inaugural address, he says, "I support slavery."

HOLZER: He says, "I will not do anything about slavery where it exists."

And he says, "I will enforce the fugitive slave law."

Frederick Douglass hates the first inaugural address, but he also says there should be a confidence in the ultimate justice of the people, meaning his election.

RUBENSTEIN: Alright, so the southern states are beginning to secede.

HOLZER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: South Carolina's first, um, Lincoln doesn't really know how to run a military operation.

He'd been barely in the military, never been in combat.

So, how does he learn how to run a war?

HOLZER: Fortunately for him, um, Winfield Scott, the hero of the Mexican War, is the general-in-chief.

Unfortunately, he's too old to get on a horse, but he had the brilliant strategic advice of the war once Fort Sumter was fired on.

And that is, um, have a blockade of southern ports.

Lincoln may have thought, "But that's illegal.

They're not a foreign, uh, enemy."

And Scott says, "But you have to do it."

So that was the beginning of the strategy that would ultimately choke off the Confederacy.

RUBENSTEIN: So, when Scott retires, he gives the, uh, the mantle to, uh, George McClellan.

Ultimately, he decides these generals aren't working so well.

And, um, there is the Battle of Gettysburg.

And how did the Union win that battle?

Because they almost lost that war.

What, how did they win, and how did Lee escape?

HOLZER: It was a three-day battle.

The most terrible engagement, um, in the history of the continent.

They won because they held the high ground on the second day, and they won because Robert E. Lee launched an ill-advised, massive charge... BOTH: Pickett's Charge.

HOLZER: That was destined to lose, and many, many killed.

Lee withdrew.

And then the big debate, what should General Meade, the Union general, do?

Lincoln believed you should go after Lee, particularly since the Potomac River is flooded.

You could trap him in the river, you could destroy the Confederate Army.

And the war would end.

And Meade thought his troops were too tired, too hot, um, too decimated by their own losses and did not pursue.

RUBENSTEIN: How many people were killed at, uh, Gettysburg?

HOLZER: It's about 14,000- 15,000, but 50,000, um, casualties if you include wounded and missing.

RUBENSTEIN: So ultimately, um, one general seems to be able to win battles, and that's Ulysses S. Grant.

People say he wins them because he is willing to sacrifice a lot of American troops, but he wins battles.

But some people say if you appoint him, there's a problem because he's an alcoholic.

And what's Lincoln's response?

HOLZER: Let's serve all the generals what he's drinking is basically his, um, you know, while Gettysburg is being fought, Grant captures Vicksburg.

And that's probably the bigger story because it opens up the Mississippi.

It's, Lincoln had to be convinced of one thing before bringing Grant to the east to take over the whole war.

He had to be convinced that Grant did not have designs on running for president.

And, uh, Lincoln ultimately is told that Grant is not interested in the presidency.

Then in, in April, he brings him out and promotes him to Lieutenant General and gives him command over everything.

RUBENSTEIN: Alright, so Grant, uh, ultimately later does run for president, but, uh, that's another story.

HOLZER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: Lincoln's gone by then.

Alright, so, uh, what happened at Appomattox?

How did, um, Grant, who's a very good general, defeat a much wiser, supposedly, general, um, in, in Lee.

Why did Lee not, uh, rout, uh, Grant rather than Grant rout Lee?

HOLZER: Well, Grant had a huge advantage in numbers and supplies.

A part of the myth of the Lost Cause, however, ascribes that superiority to his victory.

And that's the only reason.

In fact, Grant was a brilliant general.

He outmaneuvered Lee.

He forced him south, south, south.

He came back after defeats, after, um, you know, draws.

He was relentless.

And Lee, um, could not muster a tactic that could divide his army or do any of the things that Lee was famous for.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, what happens at Appomattox Courthouse?

Does he treat uh, Lee well?

HOLZER: He tries, he doesn't ask for his sword, which Lee is willing to give.

Lee is all dressed up in his full-dress uniform.

He writes up the terms, and Lee makes a suggestion, says, "I would really like my men to keep their pistols and, uh, you know, be allowed to go home 'cause it's harvest."

RUBENSTEIN: And he feeds them too.

HOLZER: And he sends them rations 'cause they're out of rations.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

So ultimately Lincoln, uh, wants to, uh, deal with the Emancipation Proclamation and the consequences of it not really applying in a non-war situation.

Can you explain, the Emancipation Proclamation was a war document.

Why does it not apply after the war's over?

HOLZER: I mean, it could, it was an executive order.

RUBENSTEIN: But it was a document designed to free hundreds of thousands of slaves so they could fight for the North, right?

HOLZER: So they could fight for the North and deprive the Confederacy of home labor, too, at the same time.

And it did free hundreds of thousands of people.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

So they, it worked.

HOLZER: And then, so in the, at the nominating convention of '64, Lincoln approved there being a resolution to have a constitutional amendment.

No one called it the 13th Amendment.

They just called it the constitutional.

RUBENSTEIN: But originally, Lincoln had opposed the constitutional amendment initially, HOLZER: He was for it.

He pledged to be for it at the convention.

The Senate had passed it.

The House had not by a few votes.

Everyone said to Lincoln, "Well, wait till December when a new Congress comes in, um, and do it then because it's gonna be overwhelmingly Republican."

And he said, "No, I want it done now."

RUBENSTEIN: Why?

Why did he wanna do it then?

HOLZER: Maybe he had worries about his own mortality.

He was not feeling well.

He had lost 20 pounds in six or seven months.

Um, I think he wanted to be the father of the amendment.

He writes Abraham Lincoln on the 13th Amendment.

Presidents don't have to approve amendments.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, wasn't he castigated by Congress for doing that?

HOLZER: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: So, after it passed, there's a little celebration, I guess, at the White House.

And at that celebration, he says some things that upset John Wilkes Booth.

HOLZER: He speaks from the second-floor window of the White House.

This would be his last public speech, although of course he doesn't know it.

And he says it's about what he sees as Reconstruction.

And during the speech, he proposes giving the vote to people of color, especially the intelligent and those who have served in the army.

And yes, John Wilkes Booth is in the, is on the White House lawn that day, and with one of his co-conspirators who had been harboring this idea of kidnapping Lincoln and holding him for ransom for southern prisoners to restart the war.

And Booth turns to the, his companion and says, "That means Negro equality."

And he doesn't use the word Negro.

Um, that's the last speech he'll ever make.

And three days later, he shot him.

RUBENSTEIN: So John Wilkes Booth has a plot to kill Lincoln, the Vice President, and the Secretary of State.

What happened to the other two-thirds of that plot?

HOLZER: Um, George Atzerodt, who was assigned to kill Andrew Johnson at his hotel in Washington, got a little too drunk and lost his nerve.

Uh, Lewis Powell, this gigantic, uh, guy, a Confederate soldier, um, did enter Seward's home.

Seward had been in a carriage accident and was lying in bed with a metal brace over his neck, which he had broken his collarbone and a broken arm dangling over the bed.

He was completely immobile.

This giant comes in and says, "I have a message for Seward."

And they say, "Well, you can't see him."

And he breaks through the guard, he hits, takes his pistol and hits his Seward's son over the head, breaking the pistol, gets into the room, and begins stabbing at Seward multiple times...stabbing... RUBENSTEIN: But he survived.

HOLZER: Well, the neck brace prevented a blow from being fatal, but he was, you know, scarred for life.

RUBENSTEIN: Lincoln, though, um, John Wilkes Booth planned that in advance, and he had, uh, how did he get into the presidential, uh, uh, seat?

HOLZER: So to get to the box that, many of you have probably been to Ford's Theater, you had to walk up two flights and then walk around the balcony.

Then there was a door to the, to the boxes.

Lincoln was in both.

They had opened the wall and both boxes were there for his use.

Booth walked around while the play was in progress.

He got to the outer part of, he opened the door, there was a guard sitting outside.

He said, "Here's my card, J. Wilkes Booth."

The guard must have been kind of starstruck.

"Oh, how nice."

You know.. RUBENSTEIN: He's a famous actor.

HOLZER: He's a very famous actor.

So Booth goes in very quietly.

He had left a big pole there earlier in the day to he barricaded the door, he put it under the doorknob, and then he shot Lincoln and stabbed a perfectly fit and able major who was with him.

RUBENSTEIN: John Wilkes Booth thought he would be a hero for what he did, right?

HOLZER: Yes.

He fled into the... southern Maryland and into Virginia.

And, um, uh, was helped by people along the way who had known something about what was gonna happen.

And then he reads, someone brings him a newspaper that says he's the most wanted man in America, and people are crying for vengeance.

RUBENSTEIN: Look, you know Lincoln better than anybody I've ever met.

It's incredible.

Uh, congratulations.

Thank you for a great conversation.

HOLZER: Thank you, David.

Thank you very much.

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