>>> NOW WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY JR. IS ONE OF THE ARCHITECTS BEHIND MODERN CONSERVATIVISM IN AMERICA, A CLOSE FRIEND OF PRESIDENT REAGAN, WHO HE FEATURED ON HIS SHOW, "FIRING LINE."

AUTHOR SAM TANNENHOUSE HAS BEEN CRAFTING A BIOGRAPHY.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW IT FITS INTO TODAY'S POLITICS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE, THANKS.

>> WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY, IS HE THE FOUNDER OF MODERN DAY POPULIST CONSERVATIVISM WE SEE OR WOULD HE BE APPALLED BY IT?

>> BOTH.

HE IS A FOUNDER OF THE CONSERVATIVISM WE SEE NOW.

A FOUNDER, DIDN'T DO IT ALONE.

BUT I THINK HE MIGHT BE A LITTLE DISPLAYED HOW IT LOOKS AND SOUNDS NOW.

AND BY THAT, WALTER, I MEAN -- YOU KNEW BILL BUCKLEY, HE WAS VERY MUCH A MAN OF LANGUAGE, ARGUMENTS AND IDEAS.

RIGOROUS DEBATE, YOU LISTEN TO THE OTHER SIDE.

I'M NOT SURE HE'D BE SO COMFORTABLE WITH HOW THE POLITICS WORKS TODAY.

>> BUT WHAT ABOUT THE POPULISM, ANTI-ELITISM.

THERE WAS A WHIFF OF ELITISM TO BUCKLEY.

>> THERE'S THE PARADOX OF WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY.

HIMSELF, SEEMED TO BE ALMOST ARISTOCRATIC PATRICIAN.

WE REMEMBER THE VOICE, STYLE, LANGUAGE, BOOKS.

BUT HE WAS INVOLVED WITH POLITICAL FIGURES LIKE JOSEPH McCARTHY, VERY CLOSE TO HIM.

ONE OF THE DISCOVERIES I MADE IN UNCOVERING HIS LIFE, INCLUDING MANY LONG INTERVIEWS WITH HIM, HOW DEVOTED HE STAYED TO JOSEPH McCARTHY.

IF YOU'RE AN ELITE PATRICIAN LIKE BILL BUCKLEY AND DON'T JUST WANT TO BE HEARD BUT WANT TO WIN THE BATTLE, WHICH INCREASINGLY LOOKED LIKE A CULTURAL BATTLE, POLITICIANS LIKE McCARTHY MIGHT BE GOOD FOR THAT.

>> ALSO ROY COHN, PUGNACIOUS LAWYER, TWO PEOPLE YOU THINK MIGHT HAVE REPELLED BUCKLEY.

WHY DID HE STAY LOYAL TO THEM TO THE END?

>> ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT EVEN NOW WE HAVE TROUBLE WRAPPING OUR MINDS AROUND, HOW MUCH IT WAS AGAINST RATHER THAN FOR.

IN THE BOOK HE WROTE WITH HIS BROTHER "McCARTHY AND HIS ENEMIES," THERE'S NOT A LOT ABOUT JOE McCARTHY BUT A LOT ABOUT HIS ENEMIES.

ROY COHN, JOE McCARTHY AND OTHERS, THEY INCLUDED RUSH LIMBAUGH WHO BUCKLEY SPONSORED IN THE 1990s, WERE ON THE SAME SIDE IN THE CULTURAL BATTLE.

>> BUT THE THROUGH LINE IS THEY'RE STRONGLY ANTI-COMMUNIST, BUCKLEY, ALMOST HIS ANIMATING FORCE.

DOES SOME OF THAT COME FROM HIS FATHER?

>> HIS FATHER WAS FROM SOUTH OF TEXAS, BOTH OF HIS PARENTS WERE FROM THE SOUTH, HIS MOTHER FROM NEW ORLEANS.

AND THEY RAISED THEIR CHILDREN TO BELIEVE THAT THE NEW DEAL WAS A COUNTERREVOLUTIONARY EVENT/CATASTROPHE IN AMERICA.

EARLIER STILL, BUCKLEY'S FATHER WHO MADE HIS FIRST FORTUNE IN MEXICAN OIL LOST IT DURING THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION OF 1910 TO 1920.

AND WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY SR. WAS CONVINCED IT WAS A BOLSHEVIK PLOT, THAT CARRIED THROUGH TO THE 1930s.

THEN WORLD WAR II, THE GREAT DEBATE ABOUT INTERVENTION BEGAN, HIS FIRST CAUSE AS A TEENAGER.

>> HIS MOTHER FROM NEW ORLEANS, AND SENIOR, BOTH CATHOLIC BUT IN AN INTERESTING PART OF CATHOLICS, WHERE THEY WERE ESSENTIALLY THE ELITE RATHER THAN OUTSIDERS.

DID THAT INFORM THE YOUNGER BUCKLEY'S CATHOLICISM?

>> VERY MUCH.

ONE OF THE AMUSING LINES THAT RUNS THROUGH THE BUCKLEY FAMILY'S LIFE, THEY WERE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE WITH THE KENNEDYS, TWO VERY WEALTHY ATTRACTIVE FAMILIES OF NEW ENGLAND, IRISH CATHOLICS, AND THERE WERE DIFFERENCES.

BILL BUCKLEY HAD FUNNY LINES ABOUT THE KENNEDYS.

SAID I DON'T KNOW WHY PEOPLE KEEP COMPARING US WITH THE KENNEDYS.

JOSEPH KENNEDY SR. WAS DEVOTED TO IRELAND, FIRST TIME MY FATHER SET FOOT IN IRELAND WAS TO GO TO THE HORSE SHOW.

THEY PULLED A CLASS LINE ON THE KENNEDYS, WHICH IS AMUSING BECAUSE THEN JACK WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT AND YOU HAVE TWO FAMILIES FROM THE SAME ROOTS.

>> YOU DO A GOOD ANALYSIS OF "GOD AND MAN AT YALE."

I REMEMBER READING THAT, IS HE A PRODUCT OF YALE OR REBEL AGAINST YALE?

>> HE'S BOTH, THAT'S THE GENIUS OF IT.

YOU'RE AN IVY LEAGUE MAN, YOU KNOW FROM THE 1930s IF NOT EARLIER, THERE WERE ATTACKS ON THE IVY LEAGUE FROM CONGRESS PEOPLE, HUAC, THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES, BUT BUCKLEY WAS THE BIGGEST MAN ON CAMPUS IN HIS YEAR, GRADUATED 1950.

TAPPED FOR ALL THE CLUBS, LAST MAN TAPPED FOR SKULL & BONES, HIGHEST ACCOLADE YOU COULD ACHIEVE.

HE WAS IN THE HIGHEST FRATERNITIES.

KNOWN FOR HIS WORK ON THE YALE DAILY NEWS.

IT'S POSSIBLE TO ARGUE HE WAS THE GREATEST CAMPUS JOURNALIST OF THE 20th CENTURY.

HE BECAME FAMOUS STILL AT YALE WRITING EDITORIALS.

ALL OF THAT MADE WILLIAM BUCKLEY.

THEN HE CLIMBED UP ON THE PLATFORM HE BUILT FOR HIMSELF AND DENOUNCED HIS PROFESSORS FOR BEING TOO LEFT WING IN ECONOMICS AND BEING ATHEISTS.

HE NOT ONLY NAMED NAMES AT THE PEAK OF McCARTHYISM, 1951, HE HAD TWO SOLUTIONS TO THE PROBLEM.

ONE, ALUMNI STEP IN AND FIRE THE FACULTY THEY DIDN'T LIKE, AND SECOND WAS THAT DONORS SHOULD STOP CONTRIBUTING TO FUND DRIVES.

IN 1951, ALL THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM, MENTORS AND FRIENDS, CLOSE ASSOCIATES SAID BILL DO NOT WRITE THAT RIDICULOUS LAST CHAPTER.

BUT BUCKLEY KNEW THAT'S WHERE HE WOULD TOUCH THE NERVE, AND LO AND BEHOLD, ALL THESE YEARS LATER, IT'S NOT SHOCKING TO HEAR THAT SAME APPROACH, IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THIS, TO THE IVY LEAGUE UNIVERSITIES TODAY, ONLY COMING FROM THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND DISCONCERTING IN THE BOOK AND SURPRISED ME BECAUSE HE'S A GENTEEL MAN, WAS NOT ONLY A SEGREGATIONIST, BUT THERE'S A RACISM THAT CARRIES THROUGH WHAT HE DOES.

IN 1957, NATIONAL REVIEW, EDITORIAL ENTITLED WHY THE SOUTH MUST PREVAIL.

HE SAID WHITE COMMUNITY IN THE SOUTH IS ENTITLED TO TAKE SUCH MEASURES AS NECESSARY TO PREVAIL POLITICALLY AND CULTURALLY IN AREAS IT DOES NOT PREDOMINATE NUMERICALLY BECAUSE FOR THE TIME BEING IT'S THE ADVANCED RACE.

EVEN AFTER THE '64 CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, HE DID NEGROS INTELLIGENCE AND PREJUDICE AND ARGUED FOR SEPARATE EDUCATION.

>> HE DID, HE DID.

ALL THE WAY UP AND UNTIL THE LATE 1960s, WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENED TO HIM, HE ACTUALLY GOT TO KNOW SOME VERY CHARISMATIC AND PERSUASIVE BLACK LEADERS, INCLUDING THE VERY YOUNG JESSE JACKSON.

ONE OF THE ADVANTAGES, ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT BILL BUCKLEY, HE WAS OPEN TO A NEW ARGUMENT AND IDEA.

IF YOU COULD BEAT THEM IN DEBATE OR EVEN IF HE WON, HE WANTED TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAD TO SAY.

IN THE EARLY PERIOD YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND VIEWERS SHOULD UNDERSTAND, WHEN THAT EDITORIAL WAS WRITTEN IN 1957, IT WAS THE MOMENT THAT THE FIRST MODERN CIVIL RIGHTS ACT WAS BEING DELIBERATED ON IN CONGRESS, THE ONE THAT LYNDON JOHNSON AND SENATOR RICHARD RUSSELL TANGLED OVER AND WERE SIGNED UNDER EISENHAUER, AND WHAT WAS MISSING WAS THE PROTECTION OF VOTING RIGHTS.

IN THE WONDERFUL BOOK "THE MASTER OF THE SENATE," HE WALKS US THROUGH THE STEPS.

BUCKLEY AND COMPANY REALLY BELIEVED BLACK PEOPLE DID NOT DESERVE TO VOTE.

HE CONTINUED SAYING THIS FOR MANY YEARS, WITHOUT APOLOGY.

A SURPRISE FOR ME, WALTER, PEOPLE WERE LESS SHOCKED TO HEAR THAT THAN YOU MIGHT EXPECT THEM TO BE.

YOU WOULD THINK A GREAT LIBERAL LIKE ARTHUR SCHLESINGER WOULD BE APPALLED BY THAT.

BUT WOULD JUST MOVE ON TO THE NEXT POINT.

NOT TO JUSTIFY FOR EXCUSE IT, BUT IN THAT CLIMATE BUCKLEY COULD MAKE ASSERTIONS LIKE THAT AND NOT SEEM A DISREPUTABLE PERSON.

>> HE WAS NOT JUST A SEGREGATIONIST BUT RACIST.

VERY ANTI-COMMUNIST, SUPPORTS JOE McCARTHY, AND ISOLATIONIST WITH LINDBERGH, AGAINST INTERVENTION IN WORLD WAR II, EVEN ANTI-SEMITIC IN SOME WAYS.

BUT HE'S KNOWN FOR TRYING TO PURGE THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT OF BIGOTS, KOOKS, AND RACISTS.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT?

>> FOR ONE THING, HE LEARNED AND ACTUALLY GREW.

THE BUCKLEY OF AGE 40 IS NOT THE SAME AS THE BUCKLEY OF AGE 30.

ONE IMPORTANT THING THAT HAPPENED WAS A MAYORAL CAMPAIGN HE WAS INVOLVED IN.

IN SOME WAYS THE GREATEST THING HE EVER DID, HELPED TRANSFORM POLITICS.

IN THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY HE CREATED IN NEW YORK IN 1965, HE CHALLENGED THE LIBERAL REPUBLICAN JOHN LINDSEY, A CONGRESSMAN WHO DECIDED TO RUN FOR MAYOR, AND A CLUBHOUSE DEMOCRAT FROM BROOKLYN, BUCKLEY RAN AS THE CONSERVATIVE.

AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS, BUCKLEY WAS A LISTENER AND OBSERVER.

HE LOVED MEETING PEOPLE.

AND AS HE WENT OUT ON A CAMPAIGN TRAIL, HE BEGAN TO MEET ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING BLACK VOTERS.

AND HE REALIZED, NO, YOU CAN ANT PUT THEM ALL IN A BLOCK AND ASSUME THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE ONE WAY.

WHICH WAS THE BASIS, THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE EARLY RACIST EDITORIALS.

YOU HAVE TO TAKE THEM ON AS INDIVIDUALS, AFTER ALL, BILL BUCKLEY IS A BIG SUPPORTER OF INDIVIDUALISM.

THAT MEANS YOU CANNOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT ANYONE.

AND WITH "FIRING LINE," HE WANTED LIVELY DEBATE.

I SUGGEST TO VIEWERS GO ON YOUTUBE TO WATCH HIS CONVERSATION WITH MUHAMMAD ALI IN 1967 WHEN ALI WAS STRIPPED OF HIS HEAVYWEIGHT CROWN AND THREATENED WITH IMPRISONMENT BECAUSE HE WOULDN'T SERVE IN THE VIETNAM WAR.

YOU HEAR BUCKLEY VERY RESPECTFULLY ENGAGING WITH ALI, NOT WHETHER HE WAS RIGHT TO DO THAT, HE RESPECTED THE COURAGE.

THEY DEBATED MALCOLM X AND THE NATION OF ISLAM.

BUCKLEY FOUND HIMSELF DEFENDING MALCOLM X AGAINST ALI.

>> AND HE HAD ELDRIDGE CLEAVER OVER TO HIS APARTMENT.

A VERY SOCIAL PERSON WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

>> AND BUCKLEY DIDN'T AGREE WITH A WORD, RIDICULE THEM IN COLUMNS AND PRINT, THEN SAY ELDRIDGE, WANT TO COME HAVE A DRINK?

AND BRING YOUR FRIEND, TIMOTHY LEARY, THE LSD EXPERIMENTER.

THAT'S HOW HE LIVED.

>> WROTE THREE COLUMNS A WEEK, LAUNCHED "FIRING LINE," A LOT.

BUT IN YOUR BOOK AN IMPLICIT QUESTION, ALMOST A CRITICISM.

HE WAS ALWAYS ON THE SURFACE DOING SO MANY THINGS.

ONE OF THE LINES YOU USED TO EXPLAIN, JUST DASHING OFF COLUMNS IN THE BACK OF A CAR, BOOKS HARDLY EDITED, HE DIDN'T GO DEEP BECAUSE HE WAS ENJOYING HIMSELF TOO MUCH.

I THINK THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> IN A TIME, IT WAS THE COLUMNIST GEORGE WILL, ONE OF MANY PROTEGES OF BILL BUCKLEY, WHO I DISCUSSED THIS WITH.

WHAT GEORGE SUGGESTED WAS, IN THESE TERRIBLE YEARS OF WATERGATE, VIETNAM, THE NIXON YEARS WHICH YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT, AND ALL THE STRIFE AND POLARIZATION, SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'RE FEELING TODAY, BUCKLEY WAS GOING TO LIVE OUT WHAT HE CALLED THE CONSERVATIVE DEMONSTRATION.

THAT WAS THE TERM HE CAME UP WITH WHEN HE WAS QUITE YOUNG.

THAT IS TO SAY, IF YOU READ OR LISTENED TO BILL BUCKLEY, SAW HIM ON THE MOVE, HEARD HIS VOICE, WAS BROUGHT INTO HIS WORLD, HEARD HIS CONVERSATION, THAT WOULD MAKE YOU MORE OPEN TO THE ARGUMENTS HE HAD TO MAKE RATHER THAN PRESENTING A REALLY COMPLEX, BEAUTIFULLY ARGUED, PHILOSOPHICAL TREATISE VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO READ.

HE WAS A MAN IN THE PUBLIC WORLD, BECAME FAMOUS IN HIS 20s, IMAGINED HIMSELF FACING LARGE AUDIENCES AND OFTEN DID.

THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS WOULD SHOW UP TO HEAR HIM LECTURE.

IN THE EARLY '60s, THAT'S HOW MUCH A CELEBRITY HE WAS.

HE THOUGHT IF HE COULD REACH YOUNG PEOPLE AND HELP THEM THINK, ARGUE, MAYBE ONE OF THEM WOULD BECOME THE THINKER AND PROPHET HE KNEW HE DIDN'T HAVE IT IN HIMSELF TO BE.

IN THE END I SAW THAT TO BE A GENEROUS SELF-ASSESSMENT, WHICH MORE OF US COULD STAND TO MAKE PROBABLY.

>> IN SOME WAYS YOU CALL HIM A PERFORMING IDEOLOGUE, PERFORMATIVE, TODAY SO MANY ARE ON BOTH SIDES.

SIMPLY DOING IT IN PERFORMATIVE WAY, IS THAT WHAT HE WAS DOING?

>> ASKING WHAT WILLIAM F. BUCKLEY WOULD HAVE DONE ON TWITTER, HE WOULD HAVE BURNED IT UP, MORE TWEETS THAN DONALD TRUMP AND ELON MUSK COMBINED.

HE WAS SO FACILE AND QUICK, LOVED THE ONE LINERS, FAMOUS FOR THEM.

I THINK IN SOME WAY HE DID CREATE THAT, AND ONE OF THE EFFECTS THAT HIS STORY HAS HAD NOW THAT IT'S BEING DISCUSSED AGAIN IS THAT IT MAKES THE WHOLE TRAJECTORY OF THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT AND CONQUEST LOOK VERY DIFFERENT.

BECAUSE NOW, IF YOU THINK OF THE TOUCHSTONES AS BEING JOSEPH McCARTHY, RONALD REAGAN, BILL BUCKLEY, AND DONALD TRUMP, WHAT THEY ALL HAVE IN COMMON.

THEY'RE MASTERS OF THE MEDIA, OF PERFORMANCE.

THEY DON'T SO MUCH COME OUT OF POLITICS AS CONQUER IT FROM THE OUTSIDE.

THEY'RE CULTURAL FIGURES.

AND CULTURE AND POLITICS INTERTWINE.

BUCKLEY WAS THE FIRST TO SEE IT.

AND WITH THAT ALL OUR HISTORY AND CURRENT POLITICS LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT.

WE THINK -- WE GIVE PRESIDENTS LICENSE TO DO THINGS THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT ALLOW FOR.

AND BUCKLEY SEEMED TO FEEL THAT'S WHERE THINGS WERE GOING.

HE INTUITED IT.

HE WAS A MAN OF PERCEPTION, WITH LONG ANTENNAE THAT PICKED UP WHERE THE CULTURE WAS GOING.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> WHAT A PLEASURE.