♪ ♪ (theme music plays) RUBENSTEIN: Hello, I'm David Rubenstein.

I'm pleased to be in conversation today with Jeffrey Frank, and we're gonna talk about his book, The Trials of Harry Truman: The Extraordinary Presidency of an Ordinary Man.

Uh, we're coming to you from the Robert H. Smith Auditorium at the New York Historical Society.

Thank you very much for joining us today.

FRANK: Thank you for having me.

RUBENSTEIN: Harry Truman left, uh, office with one of the lowest popularity ratings of recent times.

Now, he seems to be idealized by so many people, and people think he was a great president.

Um, you said he had an extraordinary presidency.

What changed in this period of time?

What, what do we kn, know about him that we didn't know when he was president?

FRANK: Well, time is what happened.

When Truman was president, he seemed, he was a very un, unimpressive, he was, he, he, he was a bad speaker, everything was going south, there were scandals, the Korean War, uh, the Korean War was, l, l, looked like a war with no end.

He was really unpopular, he had one of the historically lowest ratings ever.

But as time goes by, you begin to see these people with more perspective, and you can sort of say, "Oh, he really did a, he really did do things."

Henry Steele Commager did a piece for Look magazine even, uh, just before he left, he's like, "Oh, we're gonna forget that he did the major things that happened," he was referring to things like the Marshall Plan.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, the style of Harry Truman, which was criticized at the time by many people, they thought he was not educated, um, he had a very plainspoken style.

Um, w, w, were people at the time feeling that the presidency was lowered a bit by having such a plainspoken, uneducated person in, in the presidency?

FRANK: He followed Franklin Roosevelt, who was the most eloquent and magnetic speaker that, that, you know, of, of, probably of, of the last century, and Truman was not, Truman had none of those qualities.

He was, he had sort of a high-pitched voice, he had that Missouri accent, he would say b'lieve.

When he was campaigning as vice president in 1944, someone said he sounded like someone being translated from Hindustani.

So he was not a, he was not a charismatic person.

But people got used to it, and people got used to his, his honesty and his straightforwardness, and that, and he became, he, they, they felt a certain affection for him.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, let's just go through to make sure everybody understands... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: His life.

Um, where was he born?

FRANK: He was born outside of Independence, but close to, close to Grandview, Missouri.

RUBENSTEIN: And what, what did his parents do?

FRANK: His father was basically ne'er-do-well, he made bad investments, he was a farmer, uh, he was, h, he actually almost lost the farm and the f, family was, was, was bailed out.

His mother was an amazing woman.

His mother was really influential.

His mother, his mother had gone to college, his, his mother, his mother knew music, knew literature.

And his mother was a really incred, incredibly indominating woman, in, in the best sense.

Harry, Harry n, n, never stopped writing to her, all through, all, right until the day she died.

RUBENSTEIN: So was he a good student?

FRANK: He was an okay student.

Yeah, he was.

And he was, he was a very diligent music student.

RUBENSTEIN: After he graduated from high school... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, did he go to college?

FRANK: No, he didn't.

But he attended some night classes and so on, but he never... RUBENSTEIN: So what did he do after he graduated from high school?

FRANK: He, he had, he, He had, he had one job, he worked at the mailroom of the Kansas City Star for a couple of weeks.

He was, uh, he worked at a bank.

And then he went to live on the farm.

His father called him and said, "Come help out on the farm."

RUBENSTEIN: When World War I broke out, Harry Truman, uh, was in the military, and I guess he was in the reserves at some point or something like that, is that right?

FRANK: Yeah.

I mean, before that... RUBENSTEIN: So he went over to Europe, and... FRANK: He was called up, yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Called up.

And what was his job in the military?

Did he do a good job over in Europe?

FRANK: Yeah, he was actually promoted to captain, and it was, it was really impressive.

Truman was a, a, a Baptist from, from Missouri, the men he commanded were sort of Irish Catholics from Kansas City, and they loved him.

He was, they, he, he showed, he realized he could be a leader.

He was a real leader there, and that's, and, and that stayed with him.

RUBENSTEIN: So when the war is over, he goes back to Missouri, and he goes into business with one of his friends, uh, from high school I guess, is that... Ed, Eddie Jacobson?

FRANK: Well, they, they, they, they were actually fr... RUBENSTEIN: They were in the military together?

FRANK: Actually fr, friends from the, friends from the army.

And he also went back to pursue this woman, Elizabeth Wallis, Bess.

RUBENSTEIN: When did he first meet her?

FRANK: He met her when he was, they were about seven years old, and he was, he was completely stuck on her from this, from that, from that moment, he was crazy in love with her.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay, so, um, he goes into business with Eddie Jacobson.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And it's a haberdashery.

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: And how did that go?

FRANK: It went okay for about two years, and then it went bankrupt.

Uh, through no f, I'm gonna say through no fault of his, the economy went south.

RUBENSTEIN: So how did he get into politics?

How did he decide to get elected or try for something?

The first job he got, what was the first electoral job he had?

FRANK: It was, he was called an administrative judge, but it was, he was basically a, a county administrator.

Um, he was, he was recruited by, uh, TJ Pendergast, Tom Pendergast, who was the, who was the bo, t he Kansas City boss.

What he was really good at was sort of finding the right level of concrete for the highways.

He was driving an old Statford car, and it drove him crazy, he kept being afraid of getting flat tires, so one of the first things he did was to get money for the roads.

RUBENSTEIN: All right, so that was 1926 or something like that?

FRANK: Yeah, yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: So he runs for re-election, and he loses?

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: Then does he give up and go home, or does he say, "I'm gonna run again"?

FRANK: No, he's, he, he's... Pendergast said, "Let's, let's, let's, let's go for it again," and he, and he ran, and he, and he ran two more times.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay, so he does that, and then... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: He's, uh, the county judge.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And, um, he decides he'd like to be member of Congress?

FRANK: Well, Boss Pendergast said, "How would you like to run for Congress?"

And, and then he, and then he double crossed him and said, "Well, no, after all you can't run for the, for the, for the House," which was a, would have been a safe bet.

So Pendergast says, "But why don't you try for the Senate?"

And that was the real long shot.

This was 1934, Truman was 50 years old, he, and he had a chance of being a tax collector, which would have been, paid a lot more, but, but didn't have a, a, a long life span, or he could have tr, tried for this job for the Senate.

And he talked to Bess, and of course, knowing Harry, she, she said it was his choice.

RUBENSTEIN: So runs in a primary and he wins?

FRANK: He wins.

RUBENSTEIN: To the surprise of many people.

FRANK: Yeah, including, including Truman himself.

RUBENSTEIN: He gets elected, and, uh... so he's elected to the United States Senate at the age of 50.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Um, does he have any real qualifications for that job?

FRANK: Well, he was, he, he was, he got along with people pretty well, and he was, and, and he was, um, he became known basically as the Senator from Pendergast.

He, he, he did not have a distinguished career.

What he did do was sort of, he found h, he found his crowd.

He found his crowd.

Mostly people from rural communities around the, around the, around the country.

RUBENSTEIN: For the, most of his Senate career, he wasn't that distinguished, is that fair to say?

FRANK: In the second term, he became distinguished.

He had an idea that what was needed was a committee to sort of, a, a special committee to sort of check waste fraud and abuse in the defense industry.

This is before the war.

And the Senate voted the authority to do this, he formed the committee, and he was terrific at it.

He saved the country a lot of money, he, he was, he was so good that he actually ended up on the cover of Time magazine.

And that way, he, that way he became sort of a national figure.

RUBENSTEIN: So, Franklin Roosevelt decides to run for a fourth term.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: In his first term, John Nance Garner was his vice president.

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: But he got rid of him.

FRANK: Second.

He had two terms.

RUBENSTEIN: Two terms.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And then, he had Henry Wallace... FRANK: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, after that third term, and he decided he didn't like him anymore.

Or people thought he was too liberal, or whatever it may be.

FRANK: Too fl, too flaky maybe too.

Actually, Roosevelt had actually promised the job to, uh, to James Francis Byrnes, J, Jimmy Byrnes, who had been a, a Senator, and even though he never finished high school, he was the Supreme Court Justice.

Those were the days when a resume, a resume wasn't like today, so you could, you, you, you could be a Supreme Court Justice and not even go to sch, go to high school.

And then, he became the Assistant, what was called the Assistant President.

He was in charge of basically all kinds of domestic problems during the war while Roosevelt was president.

And so, Roosevelt basically had, had, uh, promised him the job, and, uh, and he, but then he, he l, he didn't, he didn't keep his word.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, who actually went to Truman and said, "We'd like you to be on the ticket?"

FRANK: Roosevelt's advisor said, "This guy makes lots of sense."

Labor didn't, Labor couldn't, didn't like Jimmy Byrnes.

And Jimmy Byrnes was also, by the way, a rabid segregationist, so he was, he was gonna lose the Black vote.

Truman was a perfect candidate.

He was a, from a border state, he was, he was, he was a, a big supporter of the New Deal even though he was a great enthusiast of all the New Deal, so he was a perfect, perfect choice, a sort of middle choice, and Labor liked him.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay, so the convention is in Chicago was it?

FRANK: Yep.

RUBENSTEIN: And Truman gets the, the nomination, and he goes on the ticket.

Does he realize how unhealthy Roosevelt is?

FRANK: Sure he does.

Truman noticed Roosevelt's hand was shaking.

I mean, he was not, he was not a well man.

And he, he didn't think he was gonna die, but he, but he, but he, he could tell he was very enfeebled.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, in those days the vice president didn't have an office in the West Wing, didn't have an office even in the Executive Office complex.

The only office the vice president had was in the Senate.

FRANK: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: So they didn't actually, actually run into each other every day, is that right?

FRANK: That's right.

As I say, they, they actually had one sit down meal.

That was it.

By the way, I should just say how left out of this Truman was.

Roosevelt, after, after he was sworn in, Roosevelt went off, went off to Yalta to meet with, to meet with, uh, Churchill and Stalin, didn't tell Truman where he was going.

RUBENSTEIN: Wow.

FRANK: And said, "If you need to reach me, use, you know, don't call, don't write.

I, you know, I..." You know, said basically, "Leave me alone."

RUBENSTEIN: In April, um, Franklin Roosevelt has a, um, a cerebral hemorrhage... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: I guess, and dies.

So, um, how many months is, is, uh, Roosevelt president in his fourth term?

FRANK: Three months.

RUBENSTEIN: That's it.

FRANK: Three months, that's it.

RUBENSTEIN: So in the beginning, um, he still had to win the war in Europe, it, it's getting close to being won, but it's not technically won yet.

So there is a conference in Potsdam, which is outside of, uh, Berlin, I guess.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And, uh, and now, all of a sudden, Harry Truman has to show up representing the United States government with Churchill and Stalin.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: How did that go?

FRANK: It went okay.

I mean, Truman was, Truman held, held his own.

It was a, uh... And he had, simply because he was the President of the United States.

This was the period where the United States was so incredibly rich, so incredibly powerful, that everyone, particularly Churchill, they deferred to him.

I, Churchill was almost, treated him almost as if, as, as if he was a senator seeking aid after a hurricane had hit his state.

I mean, everyone was r, they were devastated.

And St, Stalin, I think Stalin was, was a cold-blooded fellow.

Truman felt he was...

He said he, he liked good old Joe.

He, he, he said he felt the politburo was in charge, and not, not, uh, Stalin.

RUBENSTEIN: So he called him Uncle Joe?

FRANK: That was only privately.

He, uh...

I think Roosevelt may have done it, but T, T, Stalin did not like that.

RUBENSTEIN: So at Potsdam, uh, Truman, uh, hints to Stalin that we have a special weapon, um, that's really more powerful than anything anybody's ever seen.

And then Stalin, because of, uh, espionage, didn't he already know about this weapon?

FRANK: Yeah, he, he did.

Actually, Truman arrived on, on the 15th, on the 16th he toured Berlin and saw all the wreckage, then he got, that was the day he got word that the, Trinity, the, the first test of an atomic bomb had worked.

And that's when Truman knew that th, this was, this was a big, a big deal.

Someone said he was, he had, he told Churchill, and they were walking around like two boys with apples in their pockets, they were so happy.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, Stalin, it is said, knew about the atomic bomb... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Before Truman knew about it.

FRANK: Yeah, I think probably... Well, the Russians had, there was a lot of espionage going on.

RUBENSTEIN: So, all right, so Truman is on his way back, he goes back by boat?

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: And while he's back on the boat, he gets word that it's okay now, they're ready to drop their first bomb, is that right?

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And does he have to say, uh, "Let me think about it, let me consult with anybody," did he do anything, or he just goes... "Go ahead and do what you wanna do."

FRANK: Lemme back up briefly.

One committee had basically decided are we gonna use this thing?

You know, there was no debate, no question they were gonna use the bomb.

Then the, then there was a target committee that chose the, the place to drop it.

They chose Kyoto, which is this beautiful city that has, that had shrines, and, and so on.

And, and, uh, Henry, Henry Stimson, the Secretary of Defense, said, "Don't do it, they'll never forgive us."

So that's, so Hiroshima became the, the, the place of choice.

So, yeah.

So Truman gave the order.

I mean, it, it couldn't be dropped without giving the order, and he wanted to be out of, uh, out of Potsdam, out of, out of Germany.

So, uh, so yes, on, on August 6th, the bomb was dropped.

And, uh... RUBENSTEIN: And that bomb didn't quite end the war, so a second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki?

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And a couple days after that, the Japanese surrendered.

Did he ever have any second thoughts about doing that?

FRANK: He, he... No, he never had second thoughts.

I, there were times when I think he had pangs of conscience because of what happened, all the people that were killed but he would still do it again he said.

RUBENSTEIN: Let's go back to what happens after the war is over.

Um, an amazing number of things are happening in foreign policy that Truman, uh, maybe didn't get full credit for at the time, but when you look back on it, um, N, N, NATO was started, is that right?

FRANK: Yeah.

, it actually became in his, in his second term, it was...

It came out of the, a senator named Arthur Vandenberg.

So, uh, the, the, the Vandenberg Resolution, uh, offered the, the support for Europe with, uh, and then that became NATO in the second term.

RUBENSTEIN: And the CIA was created?

FRANK: Yes, the National Security Act.

RUBENSTEIN: There hadn't really been anything like the CIA.

The FBI had been doing some of that I guess before.

FRANK: There was the, the, Wild, Wild Bill Donovan's organization, but yeah.

The FBI wasn't really doing foreign stuff.

Hoover, Hoover wanted to do more foreign stuff, but he was, he was frozen out of that.

RUBENSTEIN: And the UN was created?

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: And was Truman supportive of that?

FRANK: Very much so.

RUBENSTEIN: And did he attend their first meeting of it, or?

FRANK: He showed up in, in San Francisco, and they actually got Stalin to, to send Molotov, his foreign minister.

St, St, Stalin at first was not gonna, not gonna do that.

So Truman, Truman was very supportive.

Roosevelt had been very supportive.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

And also, um, during that period of time, the Marshall Plan was announced, the very famous Marshall Plan.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Which, um, General Marshall, then the Secretary of State, announced at a Harvard commencement.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: But why is it called the Marshall plan since Truman was president?

Why don't they call it the Truman Plan?

FRANK: Well, I think he said that, "If, if they call it the Truman Plan, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna go belly-up right away."

And, uh, but... RUBENSTEIN: Because he wasn't that popular in Congress?

FRANK: But also, you know, Truman wasn't really shown a copy of the speech that Marshall delivered.

It's not really clear... Truman did not have that much to do with the Marshall Plan The Marshall Plan came out of, I mean, a lot of people realized if Europe wasn't, wasn't helped quickly, it was gonna be a, a human and, and economic disaster.

But people like Charles Boland, um, who was, who had been the, Russian expert, had realized something had to be done, and, that led to the Marshall Plan, which is an extraordinary thing, nothing like that had ever been done before.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, Truman, uh, mostly got rid of the people that Roosevelt had around him, and he surrounded himself with extremely distinguished, well-educated people?

FRANK: Uh, Truman's cabinet was really, and h, and his Supreme Court appointments, were pretty, uh, pretty, pretty mediocre.

He appointed Jimmy Byrnes Secretary of State almost as a consolation prize, almost like, "Okay, I know you didn't get to be president because you didn't get to be vice president, so I'll make, make you Secretary of State."

At one point Truman was in, in a cabinet room with Henry Wallace, who Roosevelt had made the Commerce Secretary, the former vice president, and Jimmy Byrnes, who thought he was gonna be the vice, the president, so it was an uncomfortable situation.

Jimmy Byrnes was a very undistinguished Secretary of State.

But Truman, uh, couldn't wait 'til he was gone, 'cause he, he got General Marshall to replace him, and then in the second term Dean Acheson.

RUBENSTEIN: So on the domestic front, uh, one of the surprises people might, uh, have with Truman is that, um, he was an ardent believer in civil rights.

Um, he, uh... FRANK: Meh.

RUBENSTEIN: His wife came from a family of, that'd been part of the Confederacy really, I thought.

His wife's family... FRANK: Well, his family too, very much so.

RUBENSTEIN: So, um, he supported the, uh, desegregation in effect of the federal workforce.

I thought, the federal workforce had been segregated under Wilson.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, Truman not only desegregated the military, but he also desegregated the workforce in Washington.

FRANK: But by modern standards, Truman would probably be considered something of a racist, he used the N word all the time, he really grew up in, in Confederate Missouri.

But there was the president and there was the, and there was Harry Truman.

The president did the right thing, and he was, and he did do the right thing.

He was great on that.

RUBENSTEIN: He was also a supporter of, uh, healthcare for, for everybody, and... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And what happened there?

FRANK: This is something Roosevelt couldn't do.

Roosevelt could get Social Security, but, and, but, but he couldn't get healthcare, and Truman tried again and again, he had a very, very ambitious plan that sort of, uh, eventually would, would, would have become Medicare, but it was, it was shot down time and again.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, Truman is not all that popular, um, as he goes forward.

People were comparing him to Roosevelt, he's not as good as Roosevelt, he's got some scandals from time to time, after the war, the, the economy had a fair amount of inflation.

So if people are saying he's not gonna get, uh, reelected, or elected, he had never been elected, so um, he decided to run, did he ever have any decision about not running in '48?

Did he ever think he shouldn't run in 1948?

FRANK: Yeah, he decided he wanted to run again, and, uh, but he was so certain to lose that he couldn't, he, he tried to get, uh, William Douglas, who was on the Supreme Court to, to be his vice president.

Douglas said no.

RUBENSTEIN: So in 1948, the nominee for the, for the Republican party is Tom Dewey, who had been the nominee in 1944 for the Republicans.

Um, and he was thought widely to be certain to win.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: What happened?

FRANK: It was a good ticket, and, and Earl Warren was, was vice president.

The polls were right, but the, unfortunately the polls stopped polling about two months before the election, so they, so, so they probably were right, but they were, in the end they were very, very wrong.

RUBENSTEIN: So, there's a famous newspaper, uh, that said, uh, "Dewey defeats Truman," and Truman liked to hold it up to show how wrong the press was.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: During the second term, the Korean War breaks out.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Um, when did it first start?

The, the North Korean forces invaded the South Korea area?

FRANK: Yeah, the last little, basically, basically at the end of June 1950.

RUBENSTEIN: And had anybody anticipated this as possible?

FRANK: No.

I mean, there had been border skirmishes and so on, but suddenly this became very, very serious.

Truman was in Missouri at the time, and everyone, everyone was away, his Secretary of, of Defense was away.

RUBENSTEIN: So why didn't they go to Congress and get a declaration of war?

FRANK: Well, that was, that, that... People like Senator Taft of Ohio made that very same point.

RUBENSTEIN: But Truman called it a police action, not a war.

FRANK: Exactly.

RUBENSTEIN: Why did he call it a police action?

FRANK: Well, he didn't, actually he didn't, a, a reporter said, "Would you characterize this as a police action?"

And that's how it became.

No, Truman, Truman, Truman never really used the phrase himself, but then he, then he, he kind of got to like the phrase.

RUBENSTEIN: So who was in charge of, uh, fighting for the Americans?

Was that MacArthur?

FRANK: MacArthur was the, was the commander.

MacArthur was not at, at, at top form.

Eisenhower, who had, who had worked with MacArthur in the Philippines, basically said, "How did such an idiot ever become a general?"

I mean, people who knew MacArthur, he was very, he was vain and he was very, and he was very famous.

But he had a, a terrifying couple of months.

The, the North basically occupied 90% of Korea at first, but then MacArthur had this very daring idea to sort of land it in China, outside Seoul, and come in.

And, then the war turned around, and that's when the war possibly could have ended.

MacArthur decided that he was gonna go cross the 38th parallel, he was gonna go north, he was gonna unify the country as opposed to simply pushing the North Koreans back over the 38 parallel.

RUBENSTEIN: And maybe attack the Chinese as well.

FRANK: Well, that, that, it came to that later, but he had, he had his atomic dreams.

But the analogy is the first Gulf War, putting, pushing the Iraqis out of Kuwait, what, what MacArthur turned it into was the second Gulf War, regime change and a disaster.

37,000 Americans died.

I don't know how many, um, Koreans, hundreds of thousands of Koreans, possibly two million Chinese, and they, and then every single village in town in the North was burned.

Uh, Kim Il-Sung, the, the great leader of North Korea, never forgave us, and his grandson, who is the leader of Korea, that's, they... That's why we don't have easy relations with Korea, they never will forgive us for that.

RUBENSTEIN: So in the end, uh, MacArthur says, "Maybe we should go into China," he says things beyond what the president has authorized.

So Truman talks to people about getting rid of MacArthur, and so who actually told, um, MacArthur he was relieved?

FRANK: Well, they sent, he, they, they sent a, a deputy to the Secretary of Defense over to, to meet with MacArthur.

But then, I think MacArthur heard it on the radio.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

FRANK: These, these things never work.

RUBENSTEIN: All right, so he comes back to the United States for the first time in... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: 13 years I think he hadn't been back.

FRANK: Yeah, at, at least.

Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: So what does he do?

Does he, uh, uh, go to Congress and complain, or what does he do?

FRANK: Well, he was invited back by Republicans, who...

Some, some of them were very, very, very devoted to MacArthur.

And he came back and he was invited to give a, give a speech to the, to, to, to the, to the full House of Congress, one, uh, Congressman said, uh, "It was like the voice of God, uh, in, in the flesh today," and people were weeping, and it was, he... And the speech ended with, with MacArthur saying, "Old soldiers never die, they fade away," and this, and it became the, the...

It was watched on national television.

And so, uh, people were, people thought MacArthur had a huge future ahead of him.

He was gonna, maybe he'd be president.

But it faded very quickly.

RUBENSTEIN: But, how does it happen that Eisenhower, who was an assistant to MacArthur at one point, um, becomes the next President of the United States and not MacArthur?

FRANK: Well, Eisenhower was the supreme commander of the Allied forces in Europe.

He was a national hero.

And I think one of his, uh, uh, Jim Forrestal, who became Secretary of the Navy, a very troubled, troubled guy, but he said to Eisenhower, "With, with that puss, you can't lose."

In other words, Eisenhower had this great smile.

He was, he was, he was not the, he, he was not the friendliest man, but he was an, but he was an extremely appealing, appealing man.

RUBENSTEIN: So at the end of, um, uh, Truman's term, he decides not to run for reelection.

He was, he was eligible to run again in 1952, why did he decide not to run?

FRANK: Well, he was, um, basically I think Bess let him know that, "I, I... You," she said, "You won't survive it, and neither will I."

He was, he, Truman had gotten very sort of ill just, uh, uh, just before the convention of '52.

And he, he had, he had actually decided earlier not to run.

He made the announcement in, in, in March of '52, but, uh, he, he decided earlier, it was pretty clear he couldn't...

Enough was enough.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay, so who does he want to have, have succeed him in the Democratic party?

FRANK: Well, he actually wanted Fred Vincent, th, this, the, the, the, uh, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who was a, who was a real buddy of his.

He said, "I don't want no, nothing to do with it."

So he, he tried to recruit this new governor of Illinois, Adlai Stevenson, and Stevenson said, "I don't, I don't want anything to do with it, I don't want to do it, I, I just wanna be governor again."

But this went on and on and on, and Stevenson finally realized that maybe he might wanna be president.

He was a very reluctant candidate, and he, and, and very... And he talked about, "If this cup shall pass my way, I shall, I shall sip from it."

RUBENSTEIN: So Eisenhower was reluctant as well, but he gets the Republican nomination.

FRANK: Eisenhower, Eisenhower became less reluctant as it, as it came on.

And Stevenson, by the way, as, as, as he was recruited by, by, uh, Truman, he talked to his friend George Ball, who was an advisor, he said, "Why would I wanna do this?

Eisenhower's gonna win this thing.

I would probably vote for Eisenhower, we need a change."

RUBENSTEIN: So, so Eisenhower picks as his vice president Richard Nixon.

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: Did he know Nixon?

FRANK: Yes, they'd actually met.

They met at the Bohemian Grove.

Nixon was enamored of Eisenhower already because he was, Nixon was a, was a, was a Navy man and he was a, and, you know, a lieutenant in the Navy, Eisenhower was the supreme commander.

And then, he went to meet him in, in Paris when Eisenhower was helping to set up what became NATO and Nixon really simply began to taste this thing.

Tom Dewey, who had lost the election in '48, told Nixon, "You could be vice president."

RUBENSTEIN: So, uh, they win in a landslide in 1952.

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, but what's the relationship, um, between Truman and Eisenhower?

Because Eisenhower said he would go to Korea, uh, to help solve the war.

Why was that such a, um, insult to Truman to say that... "I'll go to Korea."

FRANK: Well, the campaign had been really nasty and I think Truman, Truman really, really l, liked him, and Eisenhower sort of admired Truman.

But the campaign was horrible, and the worst moment came when, Eisenhower did not defend General Marshall.

Marshall had been his patron, his supporter, and General Marshall had been attacked by Senator McCarthy of Wisconsin, who was a, the notorious Red Hunter, who basically said, that General Marshall is at the heart of a conspiracy so black and, and so, and so infamous, uh, and, and that, uh, that, that, uh, basically a Communist conspiracy.

And Eisenhower did not defend him.

Truman said, Truman said, "You do not, you, someone who does not defend his friend is shamed, uh, has no, has no spine and is not fit to be president."

Eisenhower has very thin skin to begin with, that, that sort of crossed the line.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, but Eisenhower, um, ultimately says he will go Korea, and he wins the election.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Truman sends him a le, letter saying, "I'll let you use a presidential type plane if you still wanna go to Korea," implying that... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: He really didn't care about Korea.

FRANK: Right, Truman was very an, annoyed at Eisenhower sort of stepping into his war, the American war.

RUBENSTEIN: So ultimately, uh, uh, during the transition period of time, Eisenhower does go secretly at least... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, to Korea, and ultimately there is an armistice that's agreed to when he's president.

Um, when Truman leaves the White House, uh, he's leaving with very low popularity ratings and so forth.

What does he do?

Um, in those days, um, if I recall, you didn't have pensions, there were no offices for presidents who were former presidents.

Where does, does he go back to Independence?

FRANK: Yeah, he had a pension of about $112 a month from his, uh, from... RUBENSTEIN: From his time as a World War I a solider.

FRANK: From the army, from the army time, yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Right, so he goes back to his home in Independence?

FRANK: Yeah, he, he took the, he took the train back to Independence, and he was, and he had a very, very happy sort of farewell lunch with his, with his cabinet, and in, at the, at the Acheson's house in Georgetown.

He went, he went back to Independence, and where he stayed for basically the rest of his, the rest of his life.

He was not broke, he, he, he quickly sold, sold his memoirs to Life magazine for $600,000, and he had...

So he was, he, he, he was gonna do okay.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, Eisenhower had sold his memoirs for $500,000... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: So Truman wanted to get a little bit more.

FRANK: Exa, exactly.

That's exactly true.

And furthermore, and, and, and, and Eisenhower got a tax break.

I don't know that, I, I don't know that Truman did.

RUBENSTEIN: Um, I don't know either, uh, but I do know that Truman at one time wanted to come back to Washington for something, I can't remember what it was, and he drove himself with his wife in a car.

FRANK: That's true.

RUBENSTEIN: And there was no Secret Service driving him, there were no airplanes, they drive themselves and, you know, they stop at a motel, and people are saying, "Hey, there's the, the former President of the United States."

Isn't that unusual?

FRANK: He was actually pulled over once too, and they, they, when they...one of the cops said, "Oh, no.

Uh, go ahead."

RUBENSTEIN: So, um, Truman, um, lives to be, um, 80... FRANK: 88.

RUBENSTEIN: 88, dies in 1972.

FRANK: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: And before he dies, uh, among other things, uh, the Medicare bill is passed.

FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: And Johnson comes out to Independence, Missouri... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: To sign it there.

Why did he do that?

FRANK: Well, because of all the, all the, all the efforts Truman had made to get health, to get, to get a healthcare plan.

So yes, Medicare card number one went to Truman, Medicare card number two went to Bess and, and Truman, and, and Johnson signed the bill there.

RUBENSTEIN: Truman ultimately, um, becomes relatively frail and does, doesn't go out in public very much... FRANK: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Towards the end of his life, is that right?

FRANK: Yeah, he had a bad fall when he, actually when he was 80 years old, and then he slowed down.

His doctor said he had some sort of, sort of, um, um, maybe sort of a kind of Parkinson's and so on, and he really sl, he r, really slowed down.

He wanted to go to the funeral for Herbert Hoover in '84, he couldn't, he couldn't do it, and yeah, that's, that's... And then, actually, and then what he...

Yes, he died, he was in the hospital in, hospital in, in, in Kansas City, and at $59 a night paid for by Medicare.

RUBENSTEIN: Look, um, I did enjoy reading this book, and I wanna thank you for giving us this time and, uh, telling us a lot more about Harry Truman than probably we knew.

FRANK: It was my pleasure.

Thank you, David.

RUBENSTEIN: Thank you.

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