>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

STRIKES CONTINUE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN.

ISRAEL SAYS IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER SHOULD NOT EXIST AND TRUMP WEIGHS HIS OPTIONS.

WHAT'S THE END GOAL AND WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE IRAN?

WE HAVE A REPORT FROM TEHRAN AND I GET ANALYSIS FROM AN IRAN EXPERT.

>>> THEN AS TRUMP DIPLOMACY AND FOREIGN POLICY FAIL SO FAR, JEFF FLAKE TELLS ME ABOUT HIS CONCERNS OF AMERICA ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, WITH DOMESTIC TERROR ON THE RISE IN THE UNITED STATES, HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO A LEADING EXPERT ON VIOLENT EXTREMISM ABOUT RECENT POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS THERE.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ATTACK IRAN, IT SAYS TEHRAN CROSSED THE RED LINE AFTER STRIKING A MAJOR HOSPITAL IN SOUTHERN ISRAEL.

IRAN SAYS IT WAS AIMING ELSEWHERE.

THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER ISRAEL KATZ CALLING IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER HITLER AND SAID HE CANNOT CONTINUE TO EXIST.

THE TARGET IN IRAN WAS A TECHNOLOGY PARK, BUT ISRAEL SAYS IT WAS A DELIBERATE ATTACK ON CIVILIANS.

ISRAEL FACES CONDEMNATION FOR ITS CONTINUED BOMBARDMENT OF GAZA.

THE LATEST REPORT SAYS ANOTHER 70 PEOPLE WERE KILLED THERE.

MEANTIME THE IDF HAS BEEN INSTRUCTED TO INTENSIFY STRIKES ON IRAN.

WHILE IN IRAN CITIZENS FEAR ESCALATION AND DON'T KNOW WHERE TO TURN FOR SAFETY.

CORRESPONDENT FRED PLEITGEN IS IN TEHRAN NOW AND BRINGS US THIS REPORT.

>> Reporter: WE'RE INSIDE THE IRANIAN STATE BROADCASTING COMPANY WHICH WAS HIT BY AN AGO AND YOU CAN SEE THE DAMAGE IS MASSIVE.

I'M IN THE ATRIUM, BUT IF YOU LOOK AROUND, THIS WHOLE AREA HAS BEEN COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

ALL OF THE OFFICES, ALL OF THE TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY HAVE INSIDE HERE, THE BROADCAST TECHNOLOGY, EVERYTHING RENDERED PRETTY MUCH USELESS.

WE'LL GO INSIDE THE BUILDING NOW.

THEY HAVE TOLD US WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE MIGHT STILL BE UNEXPLODED PARTS OF BOMBS IN HERE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WHAT WE SEE HERE IS THE ACTUAL STUDIO WHERE AN IRANIAN STATE TV ANCHOR WAS SITTING AND READING THE NEWS WHEN THE STRIKE HIT.

YOU CAN SEE HERE THAT IS AN ANCHOR DESK RIGHT THERE.

OF COURSE, WHEN IT HAPPENED, THE ANCHOR WAS READING THE NEWS AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE WAS A THUD.

THE STUDIO WENT BACK.

SHE GOT UP AND LEFT AND LATER APPARENTLY CAME BACK AND FINISHED THE NEWSCAST AND IS NOW HAILED AS IRANIAN MEDIA.

SOME OF THE MAIN BULK OF THE EXPLOSION MUST HAVE BEEN HERE BECAUSE THIS PLACE IS ABSOLUTELY CHARRED.

THERE'S A LOT OF THE DESKS, COMPUTERS, PRINTERS, PHONES.

YOU CAN SEE HOW MUCH HEAT MUST HAVE BEEN EMITTED BY THE IMPACT AND EXPLOSION.

THE PHONES HERE ARE MOLTEN, THE KEYS ALSO MOLTEN, THE SCREEN AND THERE'S SOMEONE'S LUNCH STILL AT THEIR DESK STANDING HERE WHICH PROBABLY THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN WANTING TO EAT UNTIL THEY EVACUATED THE BUILDING.

THERE'S A SPOON MELTED AWAY BY THIS EXPLOSION.

ALL THIS IS PLAYING VERY BIG HERE IN IRAN, A LOT OF PUBLIC ANGER THAT THE ISRAELIS ATTACKED THIS SITE AND CERTAINLY THE IRANIANS ARE SAYING THEY CONDEMN THIS AND THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE REVENGE FOR THIS.

>> OF COURSE, AS FRED KNOWS AND ALL OF US WHO HAVE REPORTED FROM IRAN, WE HAD TO GO TO THAT BUILDING, THAT STATE TELEVISION, TO SEND OUT OUR REPORTS AND TO SEND OUT THE INTERVIEWS THAT WE'VE COLLECTED ON THE GROUND.

SO IT'S VERY WELL KNOWN.

NOW AS PRESIDENT TRUMP WEIGHS HIS DECISION ON WHETHER TO JOIN THIS FIGHT, HE SAYS HIS PATIENCE HAS "ALREADY RUN OUT" WITH TEHRAN AND HE BELIEVES THEY'RE ON THE CUSP OF HAVING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAYS THE U.S. IS "ALREADY HELPING A LOT."

MEANTIME A WESTERN DIPLOMAT TELLS CNN THE TALKS BETWEEN IRAN AND EUROPEAN POWERS ARE PLANNED FOR FRIDAY IN SWITZERLAND IN CONSULTATION WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SO WHAT HAPPENS IF AMERICA WAS TO GET INVOLVED AND WHAT IS THE GOAL?

TO DESTROY IRAN'S NUCLEAR CAPABILITY AND THE ISLAMIC REGIME?

WE HAVE AN EXPERT OF POLITICAL HISTORY JOINING US NOW IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME BACK.

WE'VE TALKED A LOT OVER THE YEARS.

THIS IS REALLY I THINK THE CULMINATION OF A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS THAT WE'VE HAD.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, I NEED TO ASK ABOUT THE DIPLOMACY.

IT, BUT WHAT DOES THAT SIGNAL AS A DIPLOMATIST AND ALSO WE HAVE REPORTS THE BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY IS TRAVELING TO WASHINGTON TO MEET WITH SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS ABOUT?

>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF TOUGH TALKING BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, BY IRANIANS, BY ISRAELIS, BUT I THINK THE WAR IS ENTERING A VERY, VERY CRITICAL PHASE.

ISRAEL HAS DONE A LOT OF DAMAGE TO IRAN BUT FALLEN SHORT OF ITS WAR GOALS.

IT HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO DESTROY IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM COMPLETELY AND EVEN THOUGH IT'S ASSASSINATED A LOT OF IRAN'S TOP MILITARY LEADERS, THEY'RE STILL FIGHTING AND ISRAEL CAN'T CONTINUE THIS PACE OF WAR INTO SECOND, THIRD, FOURTH WEEK.

IT'S GOING TO FACE LIMITATIONS TO ITS CAPABILITY.

>> WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> BECAUSE IT'S A SMALLER STATE.

IT'S EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.

EVERY TIME THEY SHOT DOWN IRANIAN MISSILES THEY HAVE TO USE A LOT OF INTERCEPTORS.

OUT QUICKLY AND THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE IRANIANS DON'T WANT THE WAR TO GO BEYOND WHAT IT IS RIGHT NOW.

IN FACT, THEY WANT TO STOP.

THEY ALREADY SENT A SIGNAL IF PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SERIOUS, FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS IS TO GET THE ISRAELIS TO STOP THEIR AGGRESSION AND IRANIANS DEFINITELY DON'T WANT THE UNITED STATES TO COME IN BECAUSE THEN IT BECOMES AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BIGGER THREAT TO THEM.

THE UNITED STATES SIMILARLY DOES NOT WANT TO ENTER THIS WAR BECAUSE IT KNOWS THAT IF IT ENTERS THE WAR BY BOMBING FORDOW OR BOMBING ANYTHING ELSE, THEN IT'S ENTERING AN UNKNOWN THAT MIGHT END UP LOOKING LIKE IRAQ WAR OF 2003 WHICH YOU COVERED EXCEPT ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE.

SO I THINK IN THIS SITUATION IRANIANS AND AMERICANS HAVE BEEN COMMUNICATING BACK CHANNEL THROUGH THE ARABS, THROUGH THE EUROPEANS AND SOME OF THESE COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN FREELANCING DIPLOMATIC PATH TO STOPPING THE WAR FROM ESCALATING MUCH FURTHER.

>> THAT WOULD REQUIRE ACCORDING TO THE DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER WHO TOLD ME YESTERDAY IT WOULD REQUIRE NEGOTIATIONS AND WOULD ALSO REQUIRE THE DEMAND BY PRESIDENT TRUMP THEY ACTUALLY GIVE UP THEIR ENRICHMENT CAPABILITY.

I MEAN IT HASN'T BEEN ON THE CARDS FOR THEM UP UNTIL NOW.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT COULD CHANGE?

>> I MEAN THE PROBLEM IS PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS A DEAL WITHOUT EVEN NEGOTIATING.

I MEAN ULTIMATELY THAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS FIVE ROUNDS OF TALKS THAT THEY HAD, THAT THEY NEVER BECAME SERIOUS NEGOTIATIONS.

THERE WAS ALWAYS TALK ABOUT TALKING AND THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP TRYING TO SAY WELL, THIS IS WHERE YOU OUGHT TO END AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT AND I WANT YOU TO GIVE ME WHAT SHOULD BE THE END RESULT OF A NEGOTIATION UP FRONT.

IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

SO AT SOME POINT HE ACTUALLY HAS TO GET SERIOUS WITH NEGOTIATIONS.

IT'S POSSIBLE THE IRANIANS MAY BE MORE PLIABLE NOW.

THE WATER HAS TO BE TESTED.

TABLE.

I MEAN WHAT IS HE OFFERING IN EXCHANGE FOR YOU GIVING UP YOUR RIGHT TO ENRICHMENT?

AND I DON'T THINK THE RIGHT TO ENRICHMENT IS ACTUALLY NECESSARILY THE ONLY SIGNIFICANT ISSUE HERE.

FOR INSTANCE, THEY HAVE TO NEGOTIATE WHAT HAPPENS TO THE STOCKPILE OF ENRICHED URANIUM THAT'S SUPPOSEDLY ALLOWING IRAN TO BUILD NINE BOMBS.

LET'S SAY IRAN GAVE UP ITS ENRICHMENT RIGHT NOW, STILL CAN BUILD NINE BOMBS ACCORDING TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

SO WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THAT?

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT?

THERE'S A TOTALITY OF IRAN'S NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES AND PROGRAM THAT HAS TO BE NEGOTIATED AND I THINK MAYBE THE EUROPEANS WILL START THIS ON BEHALF OF THE U.S., BUT I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS TO ACTUALLY DECIDE TO NEGOTIATE RATHER THAN GET A DEAL WITHOUT ONE.

>> AND IT LOOKS LIKE --I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S C Y OPS OR WHATEVER, BUT THE WORD OUT OF WASHINGTON IS HE IS LOSING HIS PATIENCE AND THAT HE'S MORE INCLINED TO SIDE WITH THE ISRAELI VIEW RIGHT NOW AFTER MONTHS AGO NOT WANTING TO GO AND DO THE MILITARY PART OF IT.

HE SEEMS TO BE PERSUADED BY PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> YES.

THAT SHIFT SEEMS TO HAVE HAPPENED, BUT I ALSO THINK THAT HE HAS WALKED BACK FROM IMMINENT ATTACK TO GIVING IT SOME TIME TO SEE WHETHER THE EUROPEANS OR ARABS, ET CETERA CAN DO SOMETHING, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WHAT HE'S SAYING I'M LOSING MY PATIENCE, THAT I'M GOING TO BOMB FORDOW, BUT WHAT HAPPEN?

>> THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

>> THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

IS HE REALLY READY FOR IRAN THAT MIGHT SAY THAT LOOK, OKAY, THEY BOMBED US.

WE CANNOT SIT STILL.

WE HAVE TO RETALIATE.

THEY RETALIATE.

AMERICANS GET KILLED OR THEY ATTACK ENERGY RESOURCES.

THEY SHUT DOWN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THEN WHAT?

THEN THE UNITED STATES IS GOING DOWN A PATH THAT ULTIMATELY AND THEN, YOU KNOW, WE'RE IN A SITUATION WHERE HE FORCED TAKING THE UNITED STATES INTO.

>> I JUST SAT BACK WHEN YOU SAID BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

THERE'S NO TALK ABOUT THAT AT ALL, NOT EVEN ISRAELI BOOTS ON THE GROUND OR TANKS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THEY HAVE AIR SUPREMACY AND ALL THE REST OF IT, BUT DO YOU THINK BECAUSE THEY SWEAR UP AND DOWN IT'S NOT THEIR OFFICIAL GOAL, BUT IN THEIR SPEECHES AND THEIR WORDS AND THEIR TARGETING, DO YOU THINK REGIME CHANGE IS UNQUESTIONABLY ON THEIR AGENDA?

>> WELL, LET'S SORT OF PARSE THIS.

ISRAEL AND IRAN WILL NOT GO TO WAR WITH TANKS AND ARTILLERY BECAUSE THEY DON'T SHARE A BORDER AND ISRAEL IS A MUCH SMALLER COUNTRY.

SO ISRAEL CAN CARRY AIR WAR, CYBERWAR AGAINST IRAN.

IF THAT DOES NOT YIELD A RESULT AND ISRAEL NEEDS BOOTS ON THE GROUND, IT'S BOOTS ON THE GROUND OR CALL THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

THAT'S THE STRATEGY.

THAT'S WHY PRIME MINISTER AMERICA INTO THE WAR VERY QUICKLY BECAUSE THEN IT ACTUALLY MAKES ISRAEL'S CAMPAIGN MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE, BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN START WARS.

YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THEY END.

THE UNITED STATES WANT TO START THE WAR WITH IRAN.

THEN IT'S NOT IN CONTROL OF HOW THAT WAR GOES TO THE NEXT STEP.

>> WE SAW THAT IN IRAQ.

>> EXACTLY.

>> IN MILITARY TERMS, IT WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL AND QUICK, THREE WEEKS BEFORE SADDAM'S REGIME COLLAPSED, BUT OBVIOUSLY FOR YEARS AFTERWARDS IT WAS A COMPLETE UTTER DISASTER.

>> THE KIND OF REGIME CHANGE THAT IS IN AMERICAN IMAGINATION AND IS SIMILAR TO KABUL 2001 OR BAGHDAD 2003 REQUIRES AMERICAN TROOPS TO BE IN TEHRAN.

YOU CANNOT CHANGE AN ENTIRE REGIME REMOTELY.

SO WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT A REGIME CHANGE FROM THE OUTSIDE UNLESS THE UNITED STATES IS IN TEHRAN.

>> OKAY.

SO WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN AND SOMEHOW THE REGIME COLLAPSES?

THE ISRAELIS ARE ATTACKING DOMESTIC INTELLIGENCE HEADQUARTERS, DOMESTIC POLICING, THE KINDS OF INSTITUTIONS FROM THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS THAT WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR CRUSHING DISSENT AND ALL THE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, INTERNAL CONTROL AND OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE THINGS.

THEY CLEARLY HOPE, BECAUSE THEY'VE SAID IT, THAT THIS WILL ENCOURAGE THE IRANIAN PEOPLE TO RISE UP AND WE CLEARLY KNOW THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WERE FED UP WITH THIS REGIME AND WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

JUST MAP OUT WHAT ARE THE SCENARIOS IF THAT SHOULD HAPPEN?

WHO TAKES OVER?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THE WAY WE'RE THINKING ABOUT THAT THE IRANIAN PEOPLE ARE FED UP WITH THE REGIME AND THEREFORE, THEY'RE GOING TO RISE UP, IT'S A LITTLE TOO NICE AND TIDY FOR ME.

FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS THE ORGANIZATION?

WHO'S THE LEADERSHIP THAT IS GOING TO LEAD A MASS UPRISING?

IT DOESN'T EXIST IN IRAN IN THAT SENSE.

SECONDLY, THE IRANIAN PEOPLE ARE ALSO REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THEIR COUNTRY BECOMING SYRIA, THAT PARTS OF IRAN ARE GOING TO FALL APART, THAT AZERBAIJAN, KURDISTAN IS GOING TO GO.

THE SAME BRUTAL GUYS THAT WERE SUPPRESSING THEM ARE THE ONLY SOLDIERS AND FORCE KEEPING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.

IT'S NOT A GIVEN AT THIS MOMENT UNTIL THIS WAR IS OVER THE IRANIAN PUBLIC WOULD ACTUALLY RISE UP IN A WAR AND ASSIST IN THE DISSOLUTION OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT.

IN FACT, THE OPPOSITE IS HAPPENING IN IRAN.

THERE IS A SENSE OF NATIONAL UNITY AROUND THAT WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY AGAINST AGGRESSORS.

WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY AGAINST DESTRUCTION.

I THINK THIS IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL WITH IRANIANS.

>> YOU THINK EVEN YOUNG PEOPLE WHO DON'T RECALL THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR WHICH IS SO IMPRINTED IN MOST IRANIANS' MINDS, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE ARE YOUNG AND THEY DON'T HAVE THOSE >> NO, BUT THEY HAVE TELEVISION AND SMARTPHONES.

THEY'VE BEEN WATCHING WHAT HAPPENED IN SYRIA AND GAZA AND WHEN DEFENSE MINISTER OF ISRAEL SAYS WE'RE GOING TO IMPLEMENT THE RULES OF SOUTH BEIRUT TO TEHRAN, THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT MEANS AND THEY'RE NOT -- >> THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT DECIMATING THE HEZBOLLAH LEADERSHIP.

>> NO.

DECIMATING THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, DESTROYING OVER 100,000 HOUSING UNITS IN SOUTH LEBANON AND SOUTH BEIRUT.

I MEAN THE IRANIANS KNOW EXACTLY --MAYBE THE FIRST 24 HOURS THEY THOUGHT ISRAELIS ARE LIBERATORS, AT LEAST A SECTION OF THEM DID.

THEY KILLED THESE BAD GENERALS WHO SUPPRESSED US, BUT THEN THEY SAW ISRAELIS ARE DESTROYING CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, PRESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, ET CETERA.

NOW PROBABLY OVER 500 IRANIANS, SOME SAY MORE, HAVE DIED.

AVERAGE KIND OF PEOPLE ARE PROTESTING.

HAVE KILLED, BUT THE IRANIANS ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT.

THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT DAMAGE THAT'S HAPPENED THERE.

THIS BUILDING YOU SHOWED, THIS RADIO AND TELEVISION BE, WAS AN EXTREMELY POWERFUL MESSAGE TO THEM ISRAEL IS NOT TARGETING IRAN'S MILITARY OR NUCLEAR FACILITIES.

IT'S TARGETING THE COUNTRY'S INFRASTRUCTURE, ALSO.

>> ALSO.

>> RIGHT.

THE MAJORITY OF TARGETS ARE CIVILIAN.

THE MAJORITY OF THE TARGETS THAT THEY HIT IN AND AROUND TEHRAN, ACROSS TEHRAN IN CITIES, ET CETERA, TO IRANIAN PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR THESE ARE NOT NECESSARILY --DEFINITELY THEY'RE NOT NUCLEAR SITES EVEN IF THEY ARE MILITARY SITES.

THESE ARE NOT NECESSARILY EXTERNAL COMBAT MILITARY SITES.

THESE ARE SORT OF BASICALLY SECURITY INSTITUTIONS OF THE COUNTRY.

THE IRANIAN PUBLIC, THE CHOICE IS NOT BETWEEN WE'RE GOING TO REVOLT AND OVERTHROW THE REGIME RIGHT NOW OR WE SIT STILL.

THE CHOICE IS DO WE HAVE A DONE?

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE WRITTEN THIS NEW BOOK AND IN IT YOU SAY, "WESTERN POLICY TOWARDS IRAN IS ESSENTIALLY NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> WE MEAN WE DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND THE ASSUMPTIONS, THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND, THE MODE OF DECISION MAKING OF THIS LEADERSHIP AND WE ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE THEIR BACKGROUND WAS IN RELIGION AND THEY SPEAK THAT LANGUAGE AND THE LEADER OF THE COUNTRY HAS A TURBAN ON HIS HEAD THAT THEY GET THEIR INSPIRATION FROM THE QUR'AN AND WE SEE THIS AS THEOCRACY.

THIS IS A HARDENED NATIONALISTIC REGIME THAT SEES ITSELF DEFENDING IRAN IN ITS OWN MIND.

IT HAS HISTORICAL REFERENCE POINTS AS CONTINUOUSLY THE FOREIGN MINISTER KEPT REFERRING TO THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR.

SO YOU HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED IN THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR.

WHAT DID THEY SURVIVE, BECAUSE THEY'RE USING?

>> CLEARLY THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT ISRAEL HAS RIGHT NOW AND EVERYBODY AGREES WITH THIS, EVERYTHING CHANGE ED ON OCTOBER 7th.

THERE WAS THE MOMENT OF OPPORTUNITY AND SYSTEMATICALLY ISRAEL WENT AROUND TO THE PROXIES AND NOW TO IRAN TO DO WHAT IT'S WANTED TO DO FOR A LONG TIME, BUT THAT OCTOBER 7th MOMENT WAS THE CRUCIAL TURNING POINT.

THAT'S THE TRAUMA, BUT ARE YOU SAYING THE IRANIAN NARRATIVE ALSO HAS A TRAUMA, WHICH IS THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR?

>> MUCH FURTHER BACK AND IT HAS OTHER TRAUMAS THAT INVOLVED U.S.

INTERVENTION IN IRAN IN THE 1950s, ET CETERA.

FOR BETTER, FOR WORSE, IRAN AND ISRAEL BASICALLY BECAME THIS SORT OF ARCHENEMIES IN THIS REGION BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE PAST 20, 30 YEARS, THE ADD UP THREAT TO ISRAEL IS GONE.

THEY'RE NONSTATE ACTORS AND MINIONS OF IRAN.

IRAN BASICALLY BECAME THE POWER IN THE REGION AND ISRAEL IS THE ONLY POWER IN THE REGION IRAN RESPECTS.

THESE PROXIES ON ISRAEL'S BORDERS DETERRED ISRAEL FROM ATTACKING IRAN, FROM CARRYING THE KIND OF ATTACKS IT'S DOING RIGHT NOW IN IRAN AND THAT FELL APART NOT ON OCTOBER 7th.

IT FELL APART THE YEAR AFTER OCTOBER 7th WHEN ISRAEL TURNED THE TABLES WITH THE DECIMATION OF HEZBOLLAH AND IRAN UNRAVELED IN SYRIA.

IRAN IS ON ITS BACK HEEL TRYING TO SORT OF CATCH ITS BREATH, BUT ISRAEL WANTS TO PRESS ITS ADVANTAGE.

THIS IS THE TIME --THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO GIVE IRAN RESPITE WITH A NUCLEAR DEAL, LET IT STABILIZE ITSELF.

THIS IS A TIME TO FINISH THE JOB.

THEY'RE APPROACHING IT WITH THAT KIND OF AN ATTITUDE, BUT THE PROBLEM IS THEY STARTED THIS WAR AND IT'S NOT GONE THE WAY IT WENT WITH HEZBOLLAH.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

>> WITH HEZBOLLAH, WITH THE PAGER ATTACK, WITH THE IMMEDIATE ATTACK, IT COMPLETELY COLLAPSED.

IT'S NOT GOING TO LAST.

>> WHAT IF THAT'S NOT THE GOAL?

>> I THINK IT'S TWOFOLD.

THE GOAL IS THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM, BUT THE GOAL IS ALSO TO DEAL WITH THE LARGER IRANIAN PROBLEM THAT THEY HAVE, WHICH IS THIS IS A STATE ORGANIZED AGAINST THEM THAT HAS CAPABILITIES THAT UNLESS YOU TAKE THESE CAPABILITIES AWAY FROM THEM, UNLESS YOU MAKE IRAN SMALLER, WEAKER, LESS OF A PLAYER, YOU WILL BE DEALING WITH AN IRANIAN PROBLEM THREE YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

SO I THINK THEY ARE IN A MINDSET THAT THEY ARE THERE TO ELIMINATE THEIR ENEMIES, ONCE AND FOR ALL.

>> THEY REALLY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO ANOTHER ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS AND THOUGHT IT WAS GOING PRETTY WELL AND TOLD PEOPLE THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A DEAL DO.

YOU THINK THERE IS ANY HOPE THERE IS A NEGOTIATION.

THESE ARE HARD LINERS ON ALL SIDES.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS A HARD LINE EXTREMIST GOVERNMENT BACKED BY EXTREMISTS.

THE IRANIANS ARE BASIC FUNDAMENTAL ISLAMICS AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS, YOU KNOW, A MAJOR CONSERVATIVE.

SOME MIGHT SAY ON THE EXTREME WING OF THE U.S. REPUBLICAN PARTY.

WHERE DO YOU SEE, YOU DO SEE ANY, ANY KIND OF NEGOTIATED OFF RAMP?

>> IT'S TRUE THEY'RE ALL HARDLINERS IN TERMS OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

THE GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL REALLY SEES NATIONAL SECURITY ONLY SOLVED THROUGH MILITARY MEANS, NOT THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS, POLITICAL PATHS, ET CETERA AND SIMILARLY, YOU'RE RIGHT WITH IRAN, BUT ULTIMATELY THERE IS PRAGMATISM EVEN WITH THE RADICALISM ABOUT WHAT IS IN THEIR INTEREST, HOW THEY'LL SURVIVE THIS MOMENT.

THAT BECAUSE ITS BACK IS TO THE WALL.

IF THE REGIME IS GOING TO SURVIVE, IF THEY WANT TO AVOID AN AMERICAN INVASION OF THE COUNTRY, THEY NEED TO FIND A DIPLOMATIC OFF RAMP.

DIPLOMATIC OFF RAMP DOES NOT MEAN SURRENDER BECAUSE THAT'S NOT DIPLOMACY.

THEY'RE COMING UP WITH A WHITE FLAG GIVING PRESIDENT TRUMP EVERYTHING IS NOT THE DEFINITION OF NEGOTIATION, BUT MAYBE TWO WEEKS FROM NOW ISRAEL MAY ALSO REALIZE THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE ANOTHER TWO-YEAR WAR.

THEY HAVEN'T FINISHED GAZA YET.

THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE A TWO- YEAR WAR.

AMERICA'S NOT COMING IN AND MAYBE THEY WOULD BECOME MORE OPEN TO A OFF RAMP.

SO I THINK THE PERFECT DIPLOMATIC MOMENT IS WHEN BOTH SIDES AND THE UNITED STATES, ALL THREE OF THEM, ARE IN THE SAME POSITION THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO CONTINUE WITH THE WAR.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NOW AS PRESIDENT DONALD GOING TO WAR WITH IRAN, HIS MAGA BASE IS IN TURMOIL.

SOME WANT A FOCUS ON DOMESTIC ISSUES, WHILE OTHERS BELIEVE MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN IS A CALL TO EXERCISE GLOBAL POWER.

WHATEVER IT MAY BE, TRUMP'S FOREIGN POLICY IS CHANGING AMERICA'S ROLE AND INFLUENCE AROUND THE WORLD AND FORMER REPUBLICAN SENATOR JEFF FLAKE IS RAISING THE ALARM.

HE SAYS AMERICA'S HISTORIC LEADERSHIP ROLE IS NOW IN JEOPARDY AND HE'S ASKING HIS FORMER COLLEAGUES IN CONGRESS TO SPEAK OUT.

HE'S ALSO THE FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM UTAH.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> LOOK, I 2 WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU AS THE PRESIDENT MULLS HIS DECISIONS, CLEARLY PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS BETTING HIS LEGACY ON ONCE AND FOR ALL, AS HE SEES IT, DEALING WITH HIS IRAN PROBLEM.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SHOULD COMMIT THE UNITED STATES TO DOING AS WELL, IN OTHER WORDS, JOINING THIS FIGHT?

>> I THINK THAT'S A BIG, BIG QUESTION AND IT WILL BE A LEGACY DEFINING QUESTION IN AS WELL.

THIS HARKENS BACK TO 2015.

IN SYRIA THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS, SYRIA CROSSED IT AND THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DECIDED INSTEAD OF STRIKING AS THEY HAD COMMITTED TO DO, TO GO TO CONGRESS TO GET AN AUTHORIZATION, AS A WAY TO STALL IT OUT.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED AND THEN RUSSIA MOVED IN, BROKERS SOME KIND OF DEAL AND THEN LITERALLY MOVED INTO SYRIA AND IT BECAME A REALLY BAD SCENE AND I THINK IS CONSIDERED NOW THE BIGGEST FOREIGN POLICY FAUX PAS OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND FOR WHAT WE'VE HAD IN A WHILE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ACTUALLY CRITICIZED THAT DECISION.

SO IN MANY WAYS WE'RE FACING A SIMILAR DECISION TODAY.

>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING KIND OF RED LINE EVEN THOUGH U.S. INTELLIGENCE SAYS THAT IT HAS NOT GOT THE EVIDENCE THAT A DECISION HAS BEEN MADE BY IRAN TO MAKE A BOMB AND THAT IT COULD BE SEVERAL YEARS OFF EVEN IF IT DOES, TO BE ABLE TO TEST IT, DEVELOP IT, ALL THE REST OF IT.

SO JUST YOUR COMMENT ON THAT.

>> YEAH.

I DON'T THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS YET DRAWN A RED LINE.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE HIM NOT TO.

HE HAS SAID THAT IRAN CANNOT GET A NUCLEAR WEAPON, BUT HE'S SAID THAT AND ALL OF US HAVE SAID THAT FOR DECADES NOW, BUT TO DRAW ANOTHER RED LINE WOULD BE A MISTAKE, SAYING IF THEY DO THIS OR IF THE WAR STANDS AT THIS POINT, WE'RE GOING TO GET IN, I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE PRESIDENT NOT TO DRAW THAT BRIGHT RED LINE AND WHAT I WOULD --IF HE DOES DRAW A RED LINE, THEN ENFORCE IT.

CARRY THROUGH WITH IT BECAUSE THAT AFFECTS OUR ALLIES ABROAD.

IT AFFECTS OUR REPUTATION AND WE JUST CAN'T HAVE THAT.

>> I'VE BEEN READING AND LISTENING TO VARIOUS PREVIOUS AMERICAN CENTCOM LEADERS AND OTHERS WHO HAVE SO MUCH EXPERIENCE WITHDRAWING UP PRECISELY THESE KINDS OF WAR PLANS.

SOME OF THEM ARE QUITE CONCERNED.

THEY BASICALLY HAVE SAID THAT, FOR INSTANCE, GENERAL VOTEL IS QUOTED AS SAYING THERE COULD BE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE UNITED STATES DOING THIS, INCLUDING INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND I JUST WANTED TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THIS.

IT COULD BE SEEN AS BREACHING INTERNATIONAL LAW TO ATTACK A SOVEREIGN STATE BASED ON WHAT EXACTLY?

SO I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT NEEDS PARADOXICALLY CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL OR TO WIDEN THE CIRCLE AND GET A BIGGER APPROVAL GROUP RATHER THAN JUST MAKING HIS OWN DECISION?

>> INTERNATIONAL LAW IS NOT MY FORTE.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT THE POLITICS OF IT, THE PRESIDENT WOULD DO VERY WELL TO UNDER THE WAR POWERS ACT, THE PRESIDENT IS SUPPOSED TO CONTINUALLY CONSULT CONGRESS, BUT OBVIOUSLY GIVE NOTICE WITHIN 48 HOURS OF ANY ACTION TAKEN AND HE HAS 60 DAYS FOR CONGRESS TO ACTUALLY ACT, BUT BECAUSE RIGHT NOW I MEAN NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY HOW CLOSE IRAN IS.

THEY'RE LIKELY VERY CLOSE TO A NUCLEAR WEAPON, BUT WE KNOW ONE THING.

THEY AREN'T MAKING ANY PROGRESS THIS WEEK OR NEXT OR IN THE NEXT MONTH OR SO AND THAT BEHOOVES THE PRESIDENT IN MY VIEW TO CONSULT CONGRESS.

HE SHOULD WANT BUY-IN, BIPARTISAN BUY-IN.

CONGRESS HAS BEEN RELUCTANT TO GIVE THAT, TO PUT THEMSELVES ON THE LINE, BUT THE PRESIDENT OUGHT TO INSIST ON THAT AND IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN GENERAL.

IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE CONGRESS TO GET BACK INVOLVED, TO FLEX THOSE MUSCLES IT HASN'T FLEXED IN A LONG TIME AND IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE PRESIDENT TO GET MORE ADVICE FROM MORE PEOPLE BECAUSE THERE WILL ALWAYS, ALWAYS BEING UNINTENDED IN IRAQ AND ELSEWHERE.

>> I'M GOING TO PUT TO YOU WHAT MY PREVIOUS GUEST, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT, USED TO BE IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT WORKING ON WHAT WAS CALLED THE AFPAK, THE AFGHANISTAN-PAKISTAN FILE UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.

HE SAID IF THE GOAL IS REGIME CHANGE, WHICH ISRAEL SEEMS TO INDICATE, GIVEN ITS TARGETING AND PUBLIC SPEECHES, THAT IF THE U.S.

JOINS IN THIS OPERATION, THE ONLY WAY TO BE ABLE TO DO REGIME CHANGE ALA IRAQ IS TO HAVE BOOTS ON THE GROUND AND, YOU KNOW, U.S. ON THE GROUND.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S EVEN A REMOTE POSSIBILITY FOR THE UNITED STATES TODAY?

>> NO.

NO, I DON'T.

I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE.

IF REGIME CHANGE COMES AND WE NEVER KNOW WHAT TRIGGERS IT, I CAN TELL YOU IN SYRIA, BACK TO THAT EXAMPLE, NOBODY THOUGHT JUST A LITTLE WHILE AGO, EIGHT MONTHS AGO, THAT WE WOULD SEE REGIME CHANGE WHEN WE DID THERE, BUT I CAN TELL YOU IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE I THINK IF THAT IS OUR GOAL.

IT'S MORE DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE WHEN THAT IS THE GOAL, THE STATED GOAL, BECAUSE IRAN CERTAINLY THE PEOPLE THERE DISAGREE WITH THEIR GOVERNMENT, BUT THERE'S A NATIONALISTIC FEELING THAT COMES IN WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD IS AGAINST YOU AND THAT I WOULD THINK WE SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THAT.

>> IT IS KIND OF BEING DEMONSTRATED AT THE MOMENT THERE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU NOW ABOUT INTERNAL AMERICAN POLITICS, PARTICULARLY IN TRUMP'S BASE.

YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THIS HAS GONE ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT THIS VIRAL VIDEO BETWEEN SENATOR CRUZ AND TUCKER CARLSON ABOUT THE WISDOM OF INTERVENING, HERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF IT.

>> WE SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT ENTERING INTO MORE FOREIGN WARS THAT DON'T HELP US WHEN OUR COUNTRY IS DYING.

>> WHEN YOU SAY OUR COUNTRY IS DYING -- >> YES.

FOCUS ON OUR COUNTRY.

I'M ALL FOR IT, BUT THE NAIVE -- >> YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY THIS COST.

YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT YOU WANT TO OVERTHROW AND YOU'RE CALLING ME RECKLESS.

>> I WANT TO STOP A LUNATIC WHO WANTS TO MURDER US FROM GETTING NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT COULD KILL MILLIONS OF AMERICANS.

>> FAIR.

>> JUST BEFORE I ASK YOUR REACTION, A "WASHINGTON POST" POLL FINDS THIS WEEK 45% OF AMERICANS OPPOSE U.S. AIRSTRIKES ON IRAN, ONLY 25% SUPPORTING THEM, A 20-POINT MARGIN.

YOU WERE A POLITICIAN.

THIS IS SENDING A LOUD AND CLEAR MESSAGE.

>> YEAH.

THAT EXCHANGE WAS REMARKABLE, BY THE WAY.

WE'VE SEEN SO FAR REALLY WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT OUTLINES WHAT MAGA MEANS, TYPICALLY PEOPLE HAVE FALLEN IN LINE.

THIS IS A BIGGER ISSUE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT VERY MANY PEOPLE FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT.

YOU'RE SEEING SOME MEMBERS OF CONGRESS VOICE THAT AND PEOPLE LIKE TUCKER CARLSON.

SO THIS IS A TEST LIKE THE BUT I SUPPOSE THAT YOU'LL SEE MORE OF THE MAGA BASE FALLING IN LINE WITH WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT DEFINES AS AMERICA FIRST POLICY, BUT THIS IS CERTAINLY A BIGGER TEST.

>> I BROUGHT IT OUT A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE BEFORE ALL THIS STARTED, YOU HAD WRITTEN AN ARTICLE, YOU HAD ORIGINALLY WRITTEN AN OP ED, AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOFT POWER AND THE ABILITY TO CREATE FOREIGN POLICY THROUGH THAT AND NOT JUST A HARD MILITARY POWER AND YOU'VE CRITICIZED I THINK THIS PRESIDENT FOR THE DOGE CUTS AND USAID AND ALL THAT SORT OF SOFT POWER.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT HURTS AMERICA AS IT'S FACING THIS KIND OF CRISIS RIGHT NOW?

>> IN THAT PIECE I WROTE, I MENTIONED I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN OR MORE OF A CHALLENGE TO SIT DOWN WITH ROBERT MOG OBI IN 2016 AFTER HE'D BEEN A DICTATOR FOR 35 YEARS IN HIS COUNTRY AND HE WAS PANNING EVERY BRITISH PRIME MINISTER AND PRESIDENTS FOR OFFENSES AND HE GOT TO GEORGE W. BUSH AND I REMINDED HIM GEORGE W. BUSH WAS THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK THAT HELPED HIS COUNTRY.

25% OF HIS COUNTRY WAS INFECTED BY AIDS AND HE TURNED TO ME AND SAID, "I'LL GIVE YOU THAT," CONCEDING THERE THAT PROGRAM HAD HELPED.

SOFT POWER PROGRAMS LIKE PEPFAR HAVE NOT ONLY ALLEVIATED HUMAN SUFFERING ALL OVER, BUT HAVE HELPED US WITH INTELLIGENCE AGREEMENTS IN AFRICA OR BASING RIGHTS, YOU NAME IT.

IT HAS BEEN TO OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS AND I AM CONCERNED MOVING AHEAD THAT WE'RE LOSING THAT.

I'M ALSO VERY CONCERNED THAT JUST THE ART OF DIPLOMACY.

THIS IS KIND OF THE ERA OF THE ALPHA MALE AND WE SAY WHAT WE WANT AND TRY TO GET IT, TELL THEM AND THAT IS JUST NOT THE WAY TO GO FORWARD.

DIPLOMACY IS AN ART AND IT'S NEEDED AND I KNOW A NUMBER OF MY REPUBLICAN SENATE COLLEAGUES FEEL THAT SAME WAY AND THAT OP ED I WROTE WAS ENCOURAGING THEM TO SPEAK OUT.

THEY CAN'T SPEAK OUT EVERY INSTANCE WHEN THE PRESIDENT SAYS SOMETHING UNTOWARD OR CRITICIZES A FOREIGN LEADER, BUT WHEN THE PRESIDENT TELLS SOME OF OUR ALLIES HE MIGHT USE FORCE TO TAKE TERRITORY, THEN REPUBLICAN SENATORS HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO STAND UP AND SAY THAT IS NOT US AND THE PRESIDENT WON'T DO THIS AND WE WON'T STAND FOR IT AND I HOPE THAT THEY WILL DO THAT.

>> ON THE OTHER BIG ISSUE OF UKRAINE, YOU AS AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY WERE QUITE INSTRUMENTAL IN FACILITATING THE APPROVAL OF SWEDEN TO JOIN BECAUSE I KNOW TURKEY WAS STANDOFFISH FOR A WHILE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT INDICATING THAT HE'S GOING TO CONTINUE HELPING UKRAINE AND THE CONSENSUS IS IF HE WALKS AWAY, UKRAINE WILL LOSE AND RUSSIA WILL WIN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR COLLEAGUES IN CONGRESS SHOULD DO?

>> THEY SHOULD DO EXACTLY WHAT LINDSEY GRAHAM AND RICHARD BLUMENTHAL ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS DID A COUPLE WEEKS AGO.

THEY SHOWED UP IN KYIV AND SAID, "WE'RE WITH YOU."

THAT MEANS A LOT.

I KNEW AS A U.S.

SENATOR AND REINFORCED AS A U.S.

AMBASSADOR, FOREIGN LEADERS PAY ATTENTION TO THE CONGRESS, PARTICULARLY SENATE.

THEY KNOW THEY HAVE SIX-YEAR TERMS, OUTLAST THE PRESIDENT AND KNOW THIS PRESIDENT WILL BE GONE IN 3 1/2 YEARS AND MANY OF THOSE SENATORS WILL REMAIN.

WHETHER IT'S TRADE DEALS OR SECURITY AGREEMENTS, IT MATTERS WHAT SENATORS IN PARTICULAR SAY AND TO ASSURE OUR ALLIES THAT THEY'RE STILL OUR ALLIES.

THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT WITH UKRAINE.

>> JUST TO BRING IT BACK TO THE UNITED STATES, THE PRESIDENT HAS SENT FORCES IN TO QUELL DOMESTIC PROTESTS AND POTENTIALLY ENFORCE HIS OWN AGENDA, THERE BEING POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS IN MINNESOTA.

HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT THIS BEING SOMETHING BIG AND REALLY SORT OF CHANGING THE FACE OF AMERICAN POLITICS AND INDEED, THE MILITARY?

>> WELL, THE POLITICAL VIOLENCE THAT'S HAPPENING, PARTICULARLY IN MINNESOTA AND ELSEWHERE, IS ABHORRENT AND TERRIBLE AND I HOPE ALL OF US ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS SPEAK OUT AGAINST THAT.

WE HAVE TO.

I THINK ALL OF US EXPERIENCED SOME OF THAT.

I WAS ON THAT BASEBALL FIELD BACK IN 2017.

IT'S A TOUGH ISSUE.

WE'VE GOT TO ALL DO BETTER IN THAT REGARD.

IN TERMS OF THE PRESIDENT'S DOMESTIC POLICY, ON IMMIGRATION HE CERTAINLY NEEDED TO MAKE SOME CHANGES ON THE BORDER.

HE'S DONE.

SO I THINK ALL OF US WILL CHEER WHEN CRIMINALS ARE DEPORTED, BUT WHEN HE GOES INTO FARMS AND MEATPACKING PLANTS AND STARTS ROUNDING UP PEOPLE, I THINK THE POLITICAL PRESSURES OF THEIR OWN WILL COME BACK ON THAT.

>> SO I DO THINK WE'LL SEE THAT LEVEL OFF.

>> YEAH.

HE SEEMS TO BE STRUGGLING WITH THAT, TOO, UNDER PRESSURE TO WALK BACK SOME OF IT.

AMBASSADOR JEFF FLAKE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> ANOTHER FEATURE OF THE MAGA DECADE IS AN ALARMING RISE IN POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

TRUMP HIMSELF WAS SHOT AT DURING A CAMPAIGN APPEARANCE.

BARBARA WALTER, A PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AT UC SAN DIEGO, IS A LEADING EXPERT ON VIOLENT EXTREMISM AND DOMESTIC TERROR AND SHE SPEAKS WITH HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE RECENT POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS IN MINNESOTA AND THE PRESENCE OF U.S.

TROOPS IN AMERICAN CITIES.

>> BARBARA WALTER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

RECENTLY WE'VE HAD THIS AT LEAST VISIBLE UPTICK IN POLITICAL VIOLENCE, POLITICAL TERRORISM, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PHRASE IT.

WE HAD A GUY WHO ATTACKED GOVERNOR SHAPIRO'S HOME IN PENNSYLVANIA.

WE HAD THE KILLING OF ISRAELI EMBASSY WORKERS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

GOING BACK FURTHER, WE HAD THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I WONDER, AS SOMEONE WHO STUDIES THESE, WHAT DOES ALL THIS POLITICAL VIOLENCE SAY TO YOU AT THE MOMENT?

>> OH, IT SAYS THAT AMERICA IS ON TERRIBLE FOOTING RIGHT NOW AND IT'S NOT LIKELY TO GET BETTER IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

YOU KNOW, DOMESTIC TERRORISM HAS BEEN INCREASING SINCE AROUND 2012.

NOBODY REALLY PAID ATTENTION TO IT.

NOBODY REALLY TALKED ABOUT IT UNTIL JANUARY 6th AND THEN SUDDENLY IT BURST INTO THE SCENE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS BEEN VERY, VERY SLOW TO RESPOND.

YOU KNOW, REALLY UNTIL RECENTLY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WAS FOCUSED ON INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, ESPECIALLY ISLAMIC TERRORISM.

THAT WAS THE BOOGEYMAN, THE ENEMY.

NOBODY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT RISE OF WHITE NATIONALIST VIOLENCE.

NOBODY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT ATTACKS ON SYNAGOGUES AND AFRICAN AMERICANS AND LATINOS.

NOBODY WANTED TO ACTUALLY NAME WHAT IT WAS, WHICH IS AMERICANS TURNING ON OTHER AMERICANS WITH VIOLENCE, AND SO IT WAS ALLOWED TO INCREASE AND WE'RE NOW SEEING MORE AND MORE OF IT AND IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO IGNORE AND NOTHING HAS CHANGED TO REDUCE IT AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

>> AS WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, THERE'S STILL MORE INFORMATION COMING OUT ABOUT THE GUNMAN IN MINNESOTA WHO DISGUISED HIMSELF AS A POLICE OFFICER AND HE SHOT AND KILLED MINNESOTA STATE REPRESENTATIVE MELISSA HOTTER HORTMAN, HER HUSBAND, AND ANOTHER LAWMAKER AND HIS WIFE IN BACK-TO-BACK SHOOTINGS.

I'M WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THESE LAWMAKERS WERE TARGETED HE WANTED TO GO AFTER?

>> IT'S INTERESTING WHY MINNESOTA WAS TARGETED.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, VIOLENCE TENDS TO HAPPEN IN PLACES WHERE POWER IS BEING CONTESTED, SO NOT IN THE DEEP RED STATE OR DEEP BLUE STATES.

IT HAPPENS IN THE PURPLE STATES.

YOU LOOK HISTORICALLY WHERE WE'VE HAD HIGH INCIDENCES OF, FOR EXAMPLE, RACIAL VIOLENCE OR POLITICALLY MOTIVATED VIOLENCE, IT'S IN THE CITIES AND THE STATES AND THEN GLOBALLY IN THE COUNTRIES WHERE POWER IS SORT OF ON THE CUSP BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT POTENTIALLY DOMINANT GROUPS AND IT ESPECIALLY HAPPENS WHEN THE ONCE DOMINANT GROUP IS DEMOGRAPHICALLY IN DECLINE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT MINNESOTA, IT HAS A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR, BUT ITS STATEHOUSE AND ITS STATE SENATE ARE BASICALLY TIED.

IT ALSO WAS THE SCENE OF THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER AND THE PROTESTS STARTED THERE.

THERE'S BEEN A SERIES OF PROGRESSIVE POLICIES PASSED IN TERMS OF ABORTION RIGHTS AND IN TERMS OF GUN CONTROL AND THESE ARE ISSUES THAT THE FAR RIGHT IS VERY, VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT AND I THINK MANY ON THE FAR RIGHT BELIEVE WE'RE IN AN EXISTENTIAL FIGHT FOR THE FUTURE AND IDENTITY OF THIS COUNTRY AND THE FRONT LINE IS PLACES LIKE MINNESOTA.

>> I WONDER ABOUT THE REACTIONS THAT CAME AFTER THAT.

THERE WERE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT SENATOR MIKE LEE, U.S.

SENATOR, HAD POSTED AND LATER RETRACTED, BUT IT SAID, "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN MARXISTS DON'T GET THEIR WAY," AND ANOTHER ONE HE SAYS, "THIS IS NIGHTMARE ON WALZ STREET," REALLY TRYING TO CONNECT THIS TO THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR TIM I WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF THAT KIND OF RHETORIC WHERE THAT BECOMES, I GUESS, ALMOST NORMAL?

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO OVERALL THE CLIMATE OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE?

>> I WANT TO START BY ACTUALLY SAYING LEE RETRACTED THAT.

WE SHOULD APPLAUD HIM FOR THAT BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN DOING THAT AND THAT IS KEY.

THAT IS KEY TO REDUCING VIOLENCE IN THE FUTURE IS NOT CELEBRATING IT, NOT POINTING THE FINGER AT SOMEBODY ELSE, BUT TO GET TO YOUR QUESTION, WHEN VIOLENCE STARTS TO BE NORMALIZED, WHEN PEOPLE DON'T CALL IT OUT FOR WHAT IT IS, THEY DON'T CALL THIS TERRORISM, WHICH IS WHAT IT IS, IF THEY DON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT OR THEY DISMISS IT OR THEY USE IT FOR POLITICAL GAIN, IT NORMALIZES VIOLENCE AND IF VIOLENCE IS NORMALIZED OR IF IT'S EVEN CELEBRATED, THEN ONES WHO TEND TO USE VIOLENCE --EXTREMISTS BEGIN TO THINK THAT IT'S NOT ONLY LEGITIMATE, BUT THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY SHOULD DO AND THEY'LL LEARN THEY WON'T BE PUNISHED FOR IT.

AGAIN, YOU HAVE THE MOTIVE, YOU DON'T WANT PROGRESSIVE POLICIES IN YOUR STATE.

YOU DON'T WANT THE DEMOCRATS IN POWER AND YOU'RE BEING TOLD FROM YOUR POLITICAL LEADERS THAT VIOLENCE IS POTENTIALLY JUSTIFIED AND IF YOU DO IT, ACTUALLY THEY'LL BLAME SOMEBODY ELSE FOR IT, WHICH MEANS YOU'LL GET OFF, THEN THE INCENTIVE TO PURSUE VIOLENCE IS MUCH HIGHER.

>> YOU POINTED OUT SOMETHING WHERE THE POLITICAL VIOLENCE HAS, I GUESS, A BETTER CHANCE IN PLACES WHERE POLITICAL POWER IS BEING CONTESTED.

YOU HAD A RECENT SUBSTACK THAT WAS FASCINATING THAT SAID WHY THE RIGHT TURNS TO VIOLENCE EVEN WHEN IT'S WINNING?

YOU SAID IN THERE TODAY'S REPUBLICANS ARE AT PEAK POWER.

THEY CONTROL ALL THREE BRANCHES OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

THEY'VE APPOINTED THE MAJORITY OF JUDGES.

THEY'VE RESHAPED ELECTION LAWS AT THE STATE LEVEL.

THEY HAVE THE SUPREME COURT.

THEY HAVE THE KEYS TO THE CADILLAC AND CAN CRUISE WHERE THEY WANT.

WHY KILL?

SO WHY ARE REPUBLICANS TAKING THESE ACTS WHEN THEY HAVE THE KEYS TO THE CADILLAC, AS YOU SAY?

>> BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEIR POWER IS FRAGILE.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE LOST THE POPULAR VOTE IN SEVEN OUT OF THE LAST EIGHT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

THEY DO NOT FOR THE MOST PART HAVE THE SUPPORT OF A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS AND THAT IS ALSO TRUE OF MANY OF THEIR POLICIES.

MOST AMERICANS --THIS INCLUDES CITIZENS OF RED STATES -- SUPPORT STRICTER GUN CONTROL LAWS.

MOST PEOPLE IN AMERICA SUPPORT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE AND YET MOST AMERICANS DON'T THINK WE SHOULD CUT MEDICAID AND SOCIAL SECURITY.

SO THE POLICIES THAT THEY'RE PURSUING THEY KNOW MIGHT BE POPULAR WITH A MINORITY OF QUITE WEALTHY AMERICANS, BUT THEY ARE NOT POPULAR WITH A MAJORITY OF THE AMERICANS.

SO IF YOU'RE IN THIS TENUOUS POSITION WHERE YOU'RE IN POWER AND YOU ESSENTIALLY RIGHT NOW HOLD THE KEYS TO THE CADILLAC, YOU'RE VERY AWARE THAT THOSE KEYS COULD BE TAKEN AWAY QUITE QUICKLY AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW WITH VIOLENCE IS NOT ABOUT PUNISHING PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST TRUMP OR CRITICAL OF TRUMP OR ARE LIBERAL JUDGES.

THEY ARE PURSUING AN INTIMIDATION STRATEGY DESIGNED TO QUIET PEOPLE, TO DETER THEM FROM RUNNING IN THE FUTURE.

THEY'RE TRYING TO LOCK IN THEIR POWER IN THE FUTURE.

THIS IS A FUTURE-ORIENTED STRATEGY.

IT'S ABOUT CONVINCING PEOPLE THAT ANY SORT OF CRITICISM OR ANY SORT OF CHALLENGE IS GOING TO LOSE AND IS ACTUALLY QUITE DANGEROUS FOR THEM AND THEY WANT TO ESSENTIALLY GET WITH VIOLENCE WHAT THEY CAN'T GUARANTEE AT THE BALLOT BOX.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND WHERE IT'S COMING FROM IN THE UNITED STATES, IT'S TRUE THAT THERE ARE INCIDENTS FROM THE FAR LEFT, BUT I WONDER WHAT DOES THE DATA SHOW WHEN IT COMES TO WHICH SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM IS ENGAGED IN THIS?

IS IT PROPORTIONAL?

IS IT THE SAME?

>> WE HAVE AMAZING DATA ON THE INCIDENTS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE IN THE COUNTRY GOING BACK DECADES.

IT'S FASCINATING.

IN THE '60s AND '70s, THE VAST MAJORITY OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE WAS DONE BY THE FAR LEFT.

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY STILL ASSOCIATE SORT OF TERRORISM AND VIOLENCE IN THIS COUNTRY WITH GROUPS, FOR ENVIRONMENTALIST GROUPS OR ANARCHIST GROUPS.

THIS IS WHAT WE SAW FOR THE MOST PART DECADES AGO, BUT DOMESTIC TERRORISM AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE PLUMMETED AFTER THE TIMOTHY McVEIGH ATTACKS IN OKLAHOMA CITY.

HE WAS PROBABLY A MEMBER OF A FAR RIGHT MILITIA IN MICHIGAN AND HIS ATTACK AND JUST THE ABSOLUTE DEVASTATION OF THAT REALLY SHOCKED AMERICANS INTO WALKING AWAY AND PULLING THEIR SUPPORT FROM A LOT OF MILITIAS AND FROM NO LONGER TOLERATING THIS TYPE OF VIOLENCE AND THE FBI IMPORTANTLY BECAME QUITE AGGRESSIVE IN GOING AFTER THESE SORTS OF VIOLENT EXTREMISTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE GRAPH, IT JUST PLUMMETED AFTER 1995.

IT STARTED TO INCREASE AGAIN AROUND 2010, 2012 AND THEN IT IT CONTINUES TO INCREASE TODAY, BUT THE PERPETRATORS OF THE NEW VIOLENCE ARE QUITE DIFFERENT.

IT'S OVERWHELMINGLY FAR RIGHT GROUPS.

SO THE LEFT, IT'S STILL AROUND A LITTLE BIT IT.

HAS INCREASED A LITTLE BIT OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, BUT THERE IS EXPONENTIALLY MORE VIOLENCE COMING FROM THE FAR RIGHT AND IT'S MUCH MORE DEADLY FROM THE TYPE OF VIOLENCE THAT'S HAPPENING ON THE LEFT.

SO IT'S NOT, FOR EXAMPLE, TARGETED AT INFRASTRUCTURE AND BUILDINGS.

IT'S TARGETED AT PEOPLE.

AS WE SAW THIS PAST WEEKEND, IT'S ACTUALLY EFFECTIVE.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY SUCCEEDING IN ASSASSINATING AND INTIMIDATING LOTS OF DIFFERENT PUBLIC FIGURES.

SO WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY IS COMING OVERWHELMINGLY FROM THE FAR RIGHT.

>> JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS WE HAVE SEEN THE DEPLOYMENT OF NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS TO PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID TO QUELL THE VIOLENCE IN THE POLITICAL PROTESTS THAT WERE HAPPENING IN LOS ANGELES AND GOVERNOR GAVIN NEWSOM OF CALIFORNIA HAS DESCRIBED IT AS WHAT WE'RE WITNESSING IS NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT.

IT'S AUTHORITARIANISM AND I WONDER HOW YOU KIND OF SEE THAT DECISION TO PUT U.S.

TROOPS ON THE GROUND IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> THIS IS A CLASSIC MOVE BY DICTATORS AND BY INDIVIDUALS WHO WANT TO BE DICTATORS.

THEY LIKE TO SEND A SIGNAL TO PROTESTERS THAT IF YOU GO OUT IN THE STREET, WE'RE GOING TO REACT.

IT'S GOING TO BE COSTLY TO YOU AND SO YOU SHOULD STAY AT HOME.

SO IT'S A DETERRENT STRATEGY AND SO I THINK HE WENT INTO LOS ANGELES IN PART TO SEND A SIGNAL TO ATLANTA AND TO AUSTIN AND TO BOSTON AND TO OTHER CITIZENS AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO ARE ANGRY AND MIGHT JOIN THOSE PROTESTS, IT'S GOING TO GET UGLY AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE SAFE AND YOU SHOULD JUST STAY SILENT, BUT I ALSO THINK HE WAS PURSUING A SECOND STRATEGY AND HE'S BACKED DOWN FROM THIS, BUT IT'S STILL IN HIS TOOL KIT, SO WATCH OUT FOR IT.

THE SECOND STRATEGY IS SOMETHING WE CALL A PROVOCATION STRATEGY.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AUTOCRATS LIKE TO DO IS THEY LIKE TO PROVOKE SOME SORT OF ATTACK AND THAT COULD BE FROM AN ENEMY OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES, HOPEFULLY A WEAKER ENEMY OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES, BUT IT COULD ALSO BE FROM SOMEBODY THEY PERCEIVED TO BE AN ENEMY WITHIN THE STATE.

YOU PROVOKE VIOLENCE FROM THIS GROUP.

THEN YOU CAPTURE THAT RIOTING OR VIOLENCE THROWING BRICKS INTO STORE FRONTS ON VIDEO AND YOU USE THIS TO CONVINCE THE REST OF AMERICA THAT PROTESTERS ARE TERRORISTS, PROTESTERS ARE THE ENEMY, PROTESTERS ARE NOT REAL AMERICANS AND THIS THEN NOT ONLY JUSTIFIES USING FORCE AGAINST THEM, BUT IT JUSTIFIES POTENTIALLY DECLARING MARTIAL LAW OR INSTITUTING EMERGENCY POWERS.

IT'S A WAY FOR AUTOCRATS TO GRAB MORE POWER AND HAVE THE COMPLIANCE OR THE SUPPORT OF CITIZENS BECAUSE ULTIMATELY HUMAN BEINGS ARE ALL THE SAME.

WHEN GIVEN A CHOICE BETWEEN FEELING SECURE AND SAFE AND HAVING FREEDOM, THEY WILL CHOOSE SAFETY AND SECURITY OVER RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS AND SO AUTOCRATS WILL MANUFACTURE CRISES OR THEY WILL MANUFACTURE VIOLENCE SO THAT THEY CAN THEN TURN TO CITIZENS AND SAY, "YOU KNOW SOMETHING?

WE ARE ALL IN DANGER FROM THESE HOSTILE FORCES.

I WILL TAKE CARE OF IT, BUT GOING TO NEED EXTRAORDINARY POWERS TO DO THAT."

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SOME RECENT SURVEY DATA ABOUT HOW COMFORTABLE PEOPLE ARE WITH POLITICAL VIOLENCE ACCORDING TO THE CHICAGO PROJECT ON SECURITY AND THREATS.

THE MOST RECENT SURVEY IN MAY REVEALED ABOUT 40% OF DEMOCRATS SUPPORTED THE USE OF FORCE TO REMOVE MR. TRUMP FROM THE PRESIDENCY.

ABOUT 25% OF REPUBLICANS SUPPORTED THE USE OF THE MILITARY TO STOP PROTESTS AGAINST MR. TRUMP'S AGENDA.

THESE NUMBERS MORE THAN DOUBLED SINCE LAST FALL.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> IT SAYS AMERICANS ARE BECOMING MORE AND MORE UNHAPPY WITH THE STATUS QUO AND THAT THEY ARE MORE WILLING TO USE VIOLENCE TO CHANGE IT, THAT THEY'RE SEEING IT AS AN ACCEPTABLE TOOL TO GET WHAT THEY WANT.

FOR ME, ONE OF THE MOST TROUBLING ASPECTS OF THAT NEW SURVEY IS IF YOU LOOK GENERATIONALLY, THE GROUP THAT SUPPORTS IT THE MOST ARE GENERATION Z.

SO IT'S THE YOUNGER GENERATION ACTUALLY THAT IS MORE WILLING TO USE VIOLENCE, THAT SEES VIOLENCE AS MORE ACCEPTABLE THAN, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BABY BOOMERS AND I THINK MY INTERPRETATION OF THAT IS THAT THEY'VE GROWN UP IN A MORE VIOLENT WORLD.

THEY'VE GROWN UP IN A WORLD WHERE LEADERS LEGITIMIZE VIOLENCE, WHERE PRESIDENTS SORT OF ENCOURAGE IT, WHERE THEY'VE WATCHED PEOPLE ENGAGE IN WHAT MIGHT IN THE PAST HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED TREASON AND CERTAINLY PUNISHABLE, THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTIONISTS.

THEY'VE WATCHED THEM BE PARDONED.

SO THEY'VE LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE VIOLENCE IS NOT AS SHOCKING AND AS TABOO AS IT WAS WHEN YOU AND I GREW UP.

THE MESSAGE THIS SENDS IS THAT THIS IS ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR AND IN THE ATTITUDES OF AVERAGE CITIZENS AND WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IT IN WHAT SOME OF THE MORE EXTREME ELEMENTS OF THE POPULATION ARE WILLING TO DO.

>> BARBARA WALTER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT'S MY PLEASURE.

>>> FINALLY, AS THE WORLD WATCHES TENSIONS RATCHET UP BETWEEN IRAN, ISRAEL, AND THE UNITED STATES, THIS TIME 16 YEARS AGO THE STREETS WERE ERUPTING INTO PROTESTS IN WHAT CAME TO BE KNOWN AS IRAN'S GREEN REVOLUTION.

I WAS REPORTING THIS IN TEHRAN AS THOUSANDS CAME OUT FOLLOWING THE DISPUTED OUTCOME OF A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION BETWEEN THE INCUMBENT AND THE REFORMIST, CHANTING WHERE IS MY VOTE AND DEATH TO THE DICTATOR.

THOSE PROTESTS WERE EVENTUALLY BRUTALLY PUT DOWN WITH THOUSANDS ARRESTED, DOZENS KILLED, AND THE OPPOSITION LEADERS STILL UNDER HOUSE ARREST, BUT THE DESIRE FOR MUCH ALIVE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, ACCORDING TO THE WHITE HOUSE, WILL MAKE HIS DECISION WHETHER TO ENTER THIS WAR IN TWO WEEKS' TIME, STILL CALLING ON IRAN TO TRY TO MAKE A DEAL.

NOW ON TOMORROW'S SHOW, WE FOCUS ON ANOTHER IRANIAN FREEDOM FIGHTER, NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE WHO DEDICATED HER LIFE TO FIGHTING FOR WOMEN'S FREEDOM, ARRESTED 13 TIMES, TRIED FIVE TIMES, AND SENTENCED OVER 32 YEARS IMPRISONMENT AS WELL AS 154 LASHES.

NOW WITH A WAR RAINING DOWN ON HER COUNTRY, SHE SHARES THIS POWERFUL MESSAGE WITH US SENT FROM INSIDE A SAFE SHELTER AND SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO THE ASPIRING NOBLE.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG AMANPOUR.