>> HELLO, EVERYONE,AND WELCOME TO"AMANPOUR & KOE. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMINGUP.

>> NOTHING'S GOING TO HAPPEN UNTILPUTIN AND I GET TOGETHER, OKAY?

>> AND NOW THEY HAVE ON THE PHONE,BUT WHAT WILL IT MEANFOR UKRAINE?

THEN --HUNDREDS OF PEOPLEKILLED IN GAZA IN A MATTER OF DAYSAS ISRAELRAMPS UP AIR STRIKES AND ITS GROUNDOFFENSIVE.

JOURNALIST RONENBERGMAN JOINS ME.

> >> PLUS, THECENTER DEFEATS THE FAR-RIGHT IN ROMANIA,AND THE EUROPEANUNION BREATHES A SIGH OF RELIEF.

IGETANALYSIS FROM ROMANIAN POLITICALSCIENTIST, VLADIMIR BOURTUN.

> >> ALSOAHEAD -- >> HE HAD VIEWS ON A NUMBER OF TOPICSTHATRESONATE TODAY.

>> MARK TWAIN, PULITZERPRIZE-WINNING BOG FER RONCHERNOW TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUTHIS LATEST BOOK, EXPLORINGTHE LIFE AND THINKING OF ONE OF AMERICA'SMOST FAMOUS WRITERS.

> >>"AMANPOUR& CO. "ISMADE POSSIBLE BY JIMATTWOOD.

SYLVIA A.

AND SIMONB.

POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TOFIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILAAND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMENFOUNDATION, SETONJ.

MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON ANDJOAN GANZCOONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSEN BLUM, KOOAND PATRICIAYUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGINGCULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR KMUNLTS.

BARBARA HOPEZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETHROGERS, ANDBY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONFROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

PRESIDENT TRUMPHAS SPOKEN TO VLADIMIR PUTIN ON THEPHONE WITH A U. S. OFFICIAL SAYING THE CALL LASTED NEARLYTWO HOURS.

NOWEARLIER, TRUMP SPOKE TO UKRAINE'SLEADER, VOLODYMYRZELENSKYY, BUT BETWEEN THE DIALUPDIPLOMACY, PUTIN IS SHOWING NO SIGNOF COMPROMISE.

ON SUNDAY, RUSSIA HIT UKRAINE WITHITS LARGESTDRONE ATTACK SINCE THE WAR BEGAN,LAUNCHING 273 DRONES IN ONE NIGHT.

THE UKRAINIAN AIR FORCE SAYS, ANDLAST WEEK, PUTIN SNUBBED A FACETO FACE MEETING WITH ZELENSKYYINSTEAD SENDING A LOW-LEVEL DELEGATIONTO TURKEYFOR CEASEFIRE TALKS.

THE UKRAINIANPRESIDENTMET WITH U. S. VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCEFOR THEFIRSTTIME SUNS THEIR INCE THEIR OVAL OFFICESPAT BACK IN FEBRUARY.

LET'S TRY TOMAKE SENSE OF WHAT COMES NEXT.

WEHAVE THE U. S. AMBASSADORTO NATO UNDERPRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA AND NOW THECEO OF COUNCILOF GLOBAL AFFAIRS.

HE JOINS US FROMALASKA.

THANK YOU SO MUCHFOR TAKING THE TIME.

SO WE'RE JUSTGETTING THE FIRST INDICATIONS OF THEREADOUT.

THEYWERE ALERTED INITIALLY FROM THE RUSSIANSTATE MEDIA NOW.

THE WHITE HOUSE CONFIRMING THE CALLWAS ABOUTTWO HOURS BETWEEN THE TWO MEN.

YOU'VEGOT TOTAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE TRANSLATIONAS WELL FOR THESE CONVERSATIONS, BUTWHATWE'RE HEARING FROM RUSSIAN MEDIA ISTHAT PUTIN CALLED THE TALKSFRANK ANDSUBSTANTIVE, AND HE SAID --PRESIDENTPUTIN SAID THAT TRUMP VIEWED TRUMPAS FAVORING PEACEFULRESOLUTIONS TO THE UKRAINIAN CRISIS,AND THE ONE LINE WE CONTINUE TO HEARFROM SLAD VLADIMIR PUTINIS ADDRESSING THE ROOT CAUSES OF THISWAR WHICH FORMOST PEOPLE, WHO AREN'T AWARE OF WHATTHATMEANS FOR THE KREMLIN, SUGGESTS THELACK OFANY SOVEREIGNTY FOR THE UKRAINIANGOVERNMENT AND ITS PEOPLE.

WHAT DOYOU MAKE SO FAROF WHAT WE'VE HEARD AND WHERE THESECONVERSATIONS COULD LEAD?

>> WELL, I THINKWHAT WE'VE HEARD IS PROBABLY THE LEASTSURPRISING OUTCOME OF A PHONE CALL.

YOU DON'T END WARS BYPHONE.

THESE ARE SERIOUS CONFLICTS.

THIS IS A SERIOUS CONFLICT THAT'SBEEN GOING ON IN MANYWAYS SINCE 2014.

THE FIGHTING HASBEEN GOING ONSINCE 2014, AND OF COURSE, FOR THELAST THREE-PLUSYEARS, ALMOST FOUR YEARS, THREE-PLUS YEARS, THE FIGHTING HAS BEENVERY, VERY INTENSE,AND IT IS INTENSE BECAUSE VLADIMIRPUTIN IS BENT ONA SINGLE PURPOSE.

THESE ARE THE ROOTCAUSES.

HEWANTS TO SUBJUGATE UKRAINE.

HE WANTS TO CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS INUKRAINE, AND HE WANTS TO CONTROL WHATHAPPENS INTHE REST OF EUROPE.

HEHAS DECIDED A LONG TIME AGO THAT HEDIDN'T LIKETHE OUTCOME OF THE COLD WAR.

HE WANTSTO REVISIT THAT OUTCOME, ANDHE'S LOOKING CONSTANTLY FOR NEW OPPORTUNITIESTO DO THAT.

HE'S DOINGIT THROUGH THE USE OF FORCE, BUT HE'SALSO DOING IT THROUGH THEUSE OF DIPLOMACY.

ONE OF THE REASONSYOU HAVETHESE PHONE CALLS IS THECONTINUING IMPLICATION THAT VLADIMIRPUTIN IS PROVIDING THATIF HE CAN TALK WITH TRUMP, THEY, THETWO GUYS,CAN SETTLE THIS ISSUE.

UNFORTUNATELY,YOUDON'T SETTLE THE ISSUE UNLESS YOUARE WILLING TO GIVE VLADIMIR PUTINEVERYTHING HE WANTS, AND EVEN THEUNITED STATES NOT ONLYDOESN'T WANT TO DO THAT, BUT FRANKLY,CAN'T DO THAT.

THEY CANNOT DELIVER UKRAINE TO RUSSIAWHICH IS WHATPUTIN WANTS.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OFTHE FACT THAT THIS CALLCAME A DAY AFTER THE WORST DRONE ATTACKSRUSSIAHAS LAUNCHED AGAINST UKRAINE SINCETHE WAR BEGAN?

THAT COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT VLADIMIRPUTIN DIDNOT FOLLOW THROUGH ON WHAT HE HADINITIALLY PROPOSED, AND THAT WAS TALKSBETWEEN OFFICIALS INTURKEY LAST WEEK.

HE WAS A NO-SHOW.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, IN FACT, FLEWTO TURKEY FOR MEETINGS,AND THEN NOW EVEN KNOWING THAT THISPHONE CALLBETWEEN THESE TWO LEADERS, PRESIDENTPUTIN WAS IN THERESORT CITY IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA OFSOCHI AT A MUSIC SCHOOL WHERE HE WASATTENDING A MUSIC PERFORMANCE,AND, YOU KNOW, THEN TOOK TIME TO HAVETHIS PHONE CONVERSATION WITH PRESIDENTTRUMP.

WHAT DOES THATTELL YOU ABOUT HIS SINCERITY TO REALLYSEEKING A PEACEFUL RESOLUTION TO THISWAR?

>> WELL, HE ISN'T SINCERE.

HE'S JUSTDRAGGING THE UNITEDSTATES ALONG BECAUSE WHAT HE WANTSIS THE UNITED STATES TOBLAME UKRAINE FOR THE WAR.

WHAT HEWANTS IS THE UNITED STATES TOTAKE RUSSIA'S VIEW OF BOTH THEROOT CAUSES ON THE WAR AND HOW ITSHOULD COME OUT,AND IN THE FOUR MONTHS THAT PRESIDENTTRUMP HAS BEEN BACKINTO OFFICE, IT APPEARS THAT VLADIMIRPUTIN CONTINUES TO SUCCEED INTHESE CONVERSATIONS WITH SPECIAL ENVOYSTEVE WITKOFF.

PUTIN HAS BEEN ABLE TO PERSUADEWITKOFF OF THE REALITY IN HIS VIEW,THAT THIS PROBLEM IS ALL BECAUSE OFUKRAINE, THATUKRAINE SHOULDN'T BEINDEPENDENT, THAT THERE HAVE BEENTHESEREFERENDA THAT THE UKRAINIANS WANTTO BE PART OF RUSSIA, THATTHE WAR WAS STARTED BECAUSE OF NATOEXPANSION,AND UKRAINE WANTING TO BE PART OFTHE WAR --THESEARE ALL RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS.

THESEAREALL SLAD VLADIMIR PUTIN'S VIEW, ANDHIS ENTIRE GOAL OVERTHE LAST FOUR MONTHS HAS BEEN TO TRYTO CONVINCE THE UNITED STATES THATPUTIN IS RIGHT AND ZELENSKYY IS WRONG,AND I'M AFRAID THAT SO FARIN THESE FOUR MONTHS THAT TRUMP HASBEEN PRESIDENTFOR HIS SECOND TERM, HE SEEMS TOHAVE LEARNED VERY LITTLE FROMVLADIMIR PUTIN.

PUTIN CAN STRING HIMALONG,IS STRINGING HIM ALONG, AND THE ONLYWAY TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THAT IS NOTTHECASE IS FOR THE PRESIDENT TO COMEOUT NOW AFTER THIS CALL AND SAY,I TRIED.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THE PROBLEMISVLADIMIR PUTIN, THAT WE WILL HELPUKRAINE TO DEFEND ITSELF WITH EVERYTHINGWE CAN,AND THAT WE WILL PUT SERIOUS, REALSANCTIONSON VLADIMIR PUTIN ANDRUSSIA UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THERE ISA CEASEFIREAND A SERIOUS NEGOTIATION TO END THISWAR.

THAT'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO RESOLVETHAT, NOT BY A PHONECALL AND NOT BY SAYING THAT THE ONLYPEOPLE --PERSON WHO CAN END THIS WARIS --IS DONALD TRUMP.

THE ONLY PERSON WHOCAN END THIS WAR ISVLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> WHY DO YOU THINKWE'RE NOT HEARING THAT FROM PRESIDENTTRUMP AT THIS POINT?

>> YOUKNOW, I DON'T --I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTANDIT TO BE HONEST.

I THINKMOST OF US WHO HAVE OBSERVED PRESIDENTTRUMPOVER THE LAST ALMOST TEN YEARSAND HIS IDEA THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN ISA MANOF PEACE IS SOMEHOW A STRONG,CAPABLE LEADER, AND HE CLEARLY --PRESIDENTTRUMP, LIKES STRONG MEN ASLEADERS, BUT I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTANDWHYHE SINGULARLY FAILSTO COMPREHEND THAT THIS WARIS CAUSED BY RUSSIA, BY ONE MAN, WHOLEADSRUSSIA, AND THAT IT CAN ONLY END BYRUSSIA AND BYTHAT ONE MAN WHO LEADS RUSSIA, THATIS VLADIMIRPUTIN, AND THAT THE WAY YOU DO THATIS TOPUT PRESSURE ON RUSSIARATHER THAN PRESSURE ON THE VICTIMOF THE WAR.

HE'S TRIED THAT.

FORTHE LAST FOUR MONTHS, THE PRESIDENTOF THE UNITED STATES HASTRIED ALMOST EVERYTHING HE CAN TOTRY TO GETVOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY TO AGREE TO ANEND TO THE WAR.

ZELENSKYY HAS AGREED TOA CEASEFIRE, A 30-DAY UNCONVENTIONALCEASEFIRE.

HE HASAGREED TO MEET WITH ANDDIRECTLY TALK TO RUSSIA, IN FACT,THAT HAPPENED ON TUESDAY.

HE WOULD HAVE WANTED TO BE MEETINGWITH VLADIMIR PUTINWHO AS YOU RIGHTLY SAID, DIDN'T SHOWUP.

ZELENSKYY HASDONE EVERYTHING HE WANTED TO DO INCLUDINGSIGNING A MINERALAGREEMENT, AND YET FOR SOME REASON,EVERY TIMEIT COMES TO CRUNCH TIME, THE PRESIDENTOF THE UNITEDSTATES SEEMS TO BELIEVE THAT BEINGNICETO VLADIMIR PUTIN GETS YOU MORE.

WELL, SOMETIMES HONEY DOES, BUT INTHISCASE,A GOOD DOSE OF VINEGAR AND A GOODDOSE OF PUNISHMENT IS MORE LIKELYTO WORK.

>> YOU MENTIONED STEVE WITKOFFWHO HAS MET WITHVLADIMIR PUTIN TWICE NOW IN THISSHORT SECOND TERM OF THEPRESIDENT'S THUS FAR, AND HERE'S WHATHE SAID ABOUT THIS YESTERDAY.

HE SAID,THEPRESIDENT HAS A FORCE OF PERSONALITYTHAT IS UNMATCHED.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, HIS SENSIBILITIESARE, THAT HE'SGOT TO GET ON THE PHONE WITH PRESIDENTPUTIN, THAT IT IS GOING TOBE CLEAR --TO CLEAR UP SOME OF THELOGJAM AND GET US TO THE PLACE THATWE NEED TO GET TO, AND I THINK IT'SGOING TO BE AVERY SUCCESSFUL CALL.

THIS ISSUE OFA LOGJAM, IT SPEAKS TO WHAT SOMEARE SUGGESTING MAY BE JUSTA MISDIAGNOSIS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMPAS TO WHY VLADIMIR PUTIN ULTIMATELYSTARTED THIS WAR, AND WHAT HE TRULYBELIEVES ARE THOSE, QUOTE, UNQUOTE,ROOT CAUSES, WHETHERTHEY'RE BASED ON FACT OR NOT BECAUSEWE HEARD FROMSTEVE WITKOFF IN PREVIOUS INTERVIEWSSAY, LISTEN.

THE RUSSIANS WANT THOSEAREAS IN THE SOUTHEASTERN PART OFTHE COUNTRY.

THEY WANT CRIMEA RECOGNITION,AND BASICALLY NO GUARANTEES TO ENTERNATO, AND THEN THEWAR WILL COME TO AN END.

RUSSIA HASMADE IT CLEAR THAT ISNOT WHAT'S GOING TO BRING THIS WARTO AN END.

EVEN JD VANCE SAID,LISTEN.

WE CAN HAVE BUSINESS DEALSTOGETHER IF YOU JUST GET THIS WARTO COMEAN END.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU, ANDDOESIT ALARM YOU THAT SO FAR INTO THISWAR, THERE SEEMS TO BE A MISALIGNMENTBETWEENTHESE TWO LEADERS AS TOWHAT IT IS THAT WILL BRING THIS WARTO AN END?

>> YEAH.

I THINK YOU HIT A VERY, VERYIMPORTANT POINT.

I THINK DONALD TRUMPDOESN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WARIS.

WAR IS SAID TO BE THECONTINUATION OF POLITICS BY OTHERMEANS, AND AT THE CORE OF THIS CONFLICTIS APOLITICAL CONFLICT.

THEPOLITICAL CONFLICT BEING RUSSIA ANDUKRAINE, WITH RUSSIA WANTING SOMETHINGFROM UKRAINETHAT UKRAINE IS NOT WILLING TO GIVE,WHICH IS ITSSOVEREIGNTY AND ITS TERRITORY ANDITS FUTURE, AND AS A RESULT, YOU HAVEA WAR THATIS INTENSE.

IT'S BLOODY.

IT'S INCREDIBLY PAINFUL FOR THE PEOPLEOF UKRAINE, FORTHE PEOPLE WHO ARE FIGHTING, AND YETTHE PRESIDENT TALKS ABOUT THISWAR AS IF IT'S SOME OUTER WORLDLYEXPERIENCE.

HE KEEPS TALKING ABOUTENDING THEBLOODBATH.

WE ALL WANT TO END THEBLOODBATH, BUT THEBLOODBATH DOESN'T END UNTIL THE CONFLICTTHAT PRODUCED ITENDS, AND THERE IS THIS SENSE WHICHIS ACTUALLY A VERYAMERICAN SENSE, THAT WAR IS A FAILUREIN SOME WAYS OF POLITICS.

IT'S NOT.

IT'S ACONTINUATION OF POLITICS.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE, BUT IN HISTORY,THROUGHOUTHISTORY, NATIONS HAVE SOUGHTTO RESOLVE THEIR DIFFERENCES THROUGHTHE USE OFFORCE, AND THE ONLY WAY THAT DOESN'THAPPEN IS IF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BENTON CHANGING THE THING --THE WAY THINGSARE GOING, UNDERSTAND THAT THE USEOF FORCE IS NOT GOING TO GET THEM,AND THE ONLY WAY TO GETVLADIMIR PUTIN TO UNDERSTAND THATISTO UNITE BEHIND UKRAINE AND MAKESURE THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN DOES NOTSUCCEED INING UKRAINE.

THAT'S HOW YOU END THEWAR.

THE LOGJAM, IF THERE IS ONE, IS INSOME WAYS,THE MISUNDERSTANDING OF STEVE WITKOFFAND DONALD TRUMP, NEITHER OF WHOMSTEEPED IN THEHISTORY OF THIS CONFLICT OR INDEEDSTEEPED ININTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, BUT IN REALESTATE DEALS WHICHARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT THANPOLITICAL CONFLICT.

UNTIL THEY UNDERSTANDTHAT THISWAR IS CAUSED BECAUSE OF WHAT RUSSIAWANTS FROMUKRAINE, THAT UKRAINE DOESN'TWANT TO GIVE IT, WE'RENOT GOING TO FIND AN END TO THIS WAR,ANDUNTIL THAT CHANGE HAPPENS, THATCLARITY EMERGES HOPEFULLY FROM THISPHONECALL, THAT THE PRESIDENT DECIDES THATHE'S HAD ENOUGH, THAT HE KNOWS THATVLADIMIR PUTINIS TAPPING HIM ALONG AS HE SAID AFEW WEEKS AGO, AND THAT THEREFORE,WHAT HENEEDS TO DO IS WHAT ALL EUROPEAN LEADERSHAVE ARE TELLING HIM TO DO, WHICHIS TO PUT THE PRESSURE ON UKRAINE--SORRY.

ON RUSSIA, AND TO HELP UKRAINE.

THAT'S WHAT THE EUROPEAN LEADERS WANT,AND THAT'S WHAT ISNOW NECESSARY TO CHANGE THE TRAJECTORYOF THIS CONFLICT.

>> SO ARE WE ATA CROSSROADS NOW AT THIS POINT?

I MEAN, MAYBEPRESIDENT TRUMP WILL SURPRISE US ALLIN COMING FROM THIS PHONE CALL, SUGGEST,LISTEN.

THERE WASNOTHING I COULD GET OUT OF PRESIDENTPUTIN BY SPEAKINGTO HIM, BY TRYING TO NEGOTIATE WITHHIM.

I AM GOING TO HAVETO LEVEL ADDITIONAL SANCTIONS ORSECONDARY SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA.

BARRING THAT, EUROPE HAS THREATENEDTO DO THAT AS WELL.

THEY'VE THREATENEDTOPUT MORE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA IMMEDIATELY.

DO YOU SUSPECT THATTHEY WILL DO THAT, AND IS THERE ANYCONCERN THEN ABOUT THE RESPONSE THATCOULD GARNER FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> WELL, I THINK WE ARE AT A CROSSROADSBECAUSE IONLY SEE TWO WAYS IN THIS GOING FORWARD.

ONE WAY IS FOR THEPRESIDENT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE PROBLEMIS VLADIMIR PUTIN, ANDTO JOIN HIS EUROPEAN FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUESTODO WHATEVER WE CAN TO HELPUKRAINE AND PUT SERIOUS NEW SANCTIONSON RUSSIA, INCLUDINGSECONDARY SANCTIONS OF THE KIND THATBYTHE WAY, LINDSEY GRAHAM, SENATOR GRAHAM,IS TRYING TOPUSH THROUGH THE CONGRESS, EXTRAORDINARYSANCTIONS ON THOSEWHO RELY ON THE IMPORTATION OF RUSSIANOIL, WHICH IS ITS MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME.

THAT WILL BE ONEWAY, AND THAT WILL BESURPRISING, BUT WELCOME, AND I WILLBE THE FIRST PERSONTO CONGRATULATE PRESIDENT TRUMPON UNDERSTANDING THAT WE --THAT THATIS HOW TO RESOLVE THIS CONFLICT.

THE OTHER WAY, WHICH I THINK UNFORTUNATELY,GIVEN THE HISTORYIS MORE LIKELY, IS THAT THE PRESIDENTSAID, I'VE TRIED.

I'VE DONE EVERYTHING I CAN.

THESEPEOPLECAN'T BE DEALT WITH, AND I'MWALKING AWAY.

I HAVE OTHER THINGSTO DO.

I'M A BUSY MAN.

THERE'S PLENTYOF OTHER CONFLICTS WHETHER IT'S INIRAN OR THE MIDDLEEAST OR WHEREVER THAT I CAN TURN MYATTENTION TO, AND I WILLJUST LEAVE IT TO --TOOTHERS TO RESOLVE THIS CONFLICT, ANDTHAT WILL THEN LEAVE THE EUROPEANSTO OWN,WHICH THEY IN SOME WAYS SHOULD, ANDDO ALREADY.

THISCONFLICT, AT LEAST THE SUPPORT OFUKRAINE, ANDTHE EUROPEAN LEADERS HAVE SAID THATTHEY WILLPUT IN NEW SANCTIONS.

IT'S TIME THATTHEY DO SO.

THEYSAID THEY NEEDED A CEASEFIRE.

THATWAS SUPPOSEDTO HAPPEN A WEEK AGO.

THAT HASN'THAPPENED.

IN FACT, AS YOUMENTIONED, THE LARGEST DRONE STRIKEINKYIV SINCE THE WAR STARTED.

NOW IT'STIME FOR MORE PRESSURE IN RUSSIA ANDMORE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

>>IVO DAALDER, ALWAYS APPRECIATE THETIME.

THANK YOU.

>> MY PLEASURE.

> >> NOW, ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER BENJAMINNETANYAHU SAYS THAT ISRAEL IS GOINGTO, QUOTE, TAKE CONTROL OF GAZAENTIRELY.

THIS AS THE COUNTRY'S MILITARYHAS LAUNCHEDAN INTENSIFIED GROUND OPERATION INTHE ENCLAVE AND EVENFURTHER AIR STRIKES.

MORE THAN 300PEOPLE HAVEBEEN KILLED SINCE THURSDAY ACCORDINGTO GAZA'S HEALTH MINISTRY,WHICH SAYS ENTIRE FAMILIES HAVE BEENKILLED WHILESLEEPING TOGETHER.

ISRAEL SAYSTHAT THEIR NEWMILITARY CAMPAIGN WHICH THEY'VE CALLEDGIDEON'S CHARIOT HAS BROUGHT HAMASBACK TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE WITHINDIRECT TALKS TAKING PLACEIN QATAR.

> >> AFTER AN 11-WEEK BLOCKADE,NETANYAHU SAYS THAT ISRAEL WILL ALLOWA BASIC AMOUNT OF FOOD TOENTER GAZA TO PREVENTFAMINE.

RONEN BERGMAN IS A STAFFWRITER A "THE NEW YORK TIMES. "

RONEN,ALWAYS GOOD TO SEEYOU, AND JUST IN THE LAST HOUR ORSO, WE'RE GETTINGINDICATION THAT THE FIRST AID TRUCKSHAVE BEEN GOING BACKINTO GAZA AS WELL.

GIVE US A SENSEOF WHERE THIS OPERATION, GIDEON'SCHARIOT, STANDS RIGHT NOW, BECAUSEEVEN YOUR OWNMAGAZINE, "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THENEWSPAPER, HAD THIS HEADLINE.

"ISRAELANNOUNCED A NEWINVASION OF GAZA: IS ITBLUFFING? "

IS THIS A FAMILIAR NETANYAHUTACTIC TORAMP THINGS UP WITHOUT GOING FULL-FORCE IN A SORT OFHOLD-ME-BACK-I-DARE-YOU SCENARIO ORIS THISA DIFFERENT PRIME MINISTER WHO'S BEHOLDENTO HIS COALITION?

>> PLEASURE TOBE HERE AGAIN.

I THINKNETANYAHU AND THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENTIS PLAYINGWITH A FEW VECTORS.

ONE IS TO SHOWFORCE AND DO THAT EXTERNALLY ANDDOMESTICALLY.

DOMESTICALLY BECAUSE HE'STALKING FOR MORE THAN A YEAR, ABOUTTHE ULTIMATE VICTORYWITHOUT DEFINING WHAT IS THE NATUREOF THIS VICTORYWHILE SAYING THAT --HE'S SENDINGTHE TROOPS INTO GAZA TOACHIEVE THIS VAGUE, TERRIBLE, ULTIMATEVICTORY, SOMETHING THEY WERE NOT ABLETO ACHIEVEFOR MORE THAN A YEAR AND A HALF.

WHILEAT THE SAME TIME, PROMISINGTHAT ONLY MILITARY FORCE WILL BEABLE TO RELEASETHE HOSTAGESAND THIS IN OURREPORTING OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES"SHOWED THAT AT LEAST 41HOSTAGES THAT CAME INTO GAZAALIVE DIED SINCE AS A RESULT ORINDIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE ISRAELIGROUND MANEUVER OR BECAUSE OF BADCONDITIONS, BUT INANY CASE, THE LENGTH OF THE WAR CAUSEDTHE LIVES OFHOSTAGES.

NETANYAHU IS SAYING, NO.

ONLY MILITARY FORCE CANRELEASE THEM, BUT THEY'RE TRYINGTO CALM DOWN THE VOICES, THE OTHERVOICES FROMINSIDE HIS COALITION THAT DEMANDSHIM TO CONTINUE TO WORKBASICALLY INDEFINITELY.

NOW HE SAYSUNLIKEWHAT HE SAID MANY TIMES BEFORE, ISRAELIS GOING TO CONQUER THE WHOLE OFTHE GAZA STRIP.

EXTERNALLY, THE NETANYAHUGOVERNMENT IS TRYINGTO PUT PRESSURE ON HAMAS SAYING IFYOU DO NOTRELEASE THE HOSTAGES, IF YOUDO NOT MAKE CONCESSIONS, IF YOU DONOTSURRENDER, ISRAEL WILL GO ALL INTO CONQUER THE GAZA STRIP.

WHAT ISHAPPENING IN REALITY,YOU REFERRED TO THE STORY IN THE "NEWYORKTIMES" BY MY COLLEAGUE.

THE IDF ISTO AN EXTENT, RELUCTANT TO GO ANDCONQUER GAZA.

THE IDF SAYS THAT ITWILLTAKE AT LEAST FIVE YEARS TO DESTROYAND EXPLODE ALL THE MILITARY SITESANDUNDERGROUND TUNNEL NETWORKS OF HAMASANDCAPTURE EVERYBODY.

THEIDF IS NOT KEEN ON THE CRISIS, BUTTHE RESERVE TROOP, THERESERVE ARMY PEOPLE ARE REALLY EXHAUSTEDAFTER HUNDREDS OF DAYS IN RESERVES.

THERE'S ANONGOING, GROWINGSKEPTICISM ABOUT WHAT THIS WAR ISABOUT.

IS ITABOUT WINNING, RELEASING THEHOSTAGES, OR ABOUT KEEPING THE INTEGRITYOF MR. NETANYAHU'S COALITION?

>> AND WHATDOES WINNING EVENMEAN AT THIS POINT IF NETANYAHU WANTSA WAY OUT OF THISOPERATION RIGHT NOW?

HE COULD SAYPERHAPS, AND MAYBE YOU COULDCONFIRM WITH US, BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVEWE HAVECONFIRMATION YET THATMUHAMMAD SINWAR WHO WAS THE TARGETOF ANATTACK LAST WEEK, WAS, IN FACT, KILLED,BUT THAT COULD POSSIBLY GIVE HIM AWAY TOSAY, WE'VE ACCOMPLISHED A BIG PORTIONOFOUR GOAL, AND NOW WE'RE READY TO NEGOTIATE.

HE HASN'T SAID THAT JUST YET, BUTIN THE MEANTIME,AS YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTING ALONG WITHYOUR COLLEAGUES,THE CONCERN ABOUT THE HUMANITARIANCRISIS HAS ONLYGROWN OVER THE LAST 2 1/2 MONTHS.

INFACT, YOU'VE REPORTED THAT PRIVATELYSOME IDF GENERALS AND OFFICIALS ARECONCERNEDABOUT THE SCALE OFTHE CRISIS.

TALK ABOUT WHERETHINGS STAND RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT ISRAELCAN ORSHOULD BE DOING TO AVOID A COMPLETECATASTROPHE.

>> SO ONE OF THE NEW GOALS THAT WASSETBY THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT A FEWMONTHS AGO, WAS TO TAKE CONTROL OVERTHEHUMANITARIAN AID WHICH THEY SAY ISTHE MAINCOMPONENT OF HAMAS POWER.

HAMAS IS LOOTING THE HUMANITARIANAID, SENDING IN MUCH MORE MONEY, ANDIN ANY CASE, THE AMOUNT OFPEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP, AND PEOPLENEED TO EATFROM THE HAMASHAND.

THE GOVERNMENT MADE THIS INTOONE OF THEMAIN GOALS OF THE CURRENTINVASION, AND THEY HAVE SAIDWHEN STOPPING, WITH THE BLOCKADE,HE SAIDNOTHING WILL COME INTO THEGAZA STRIP UNLESS IT'S UNDER THISNEW MECHANISM THEY'RE DEVELOPING WITHAN AMERICAN COMPANY THAT WOULD BEFULLY SUPERVISED.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THESECOMPANIES ARE NOT YET STATIONED.

THECENTERS ARE NOT YET BUILT.

THE SYSTEM DOES NOT YETWORK.

IN THE MEANTIME,THE IDF AGENCYIS ASSESSING THAT THERE'S ONLY DAYSLEFT IN THE STORAGE OFTHE DIFFERENT NGOs THAT IS AVAILABLEFOR THEGAZANS.

THERE'S NO FOOD IN THE GAZASTRIP, BUT THISFOOD IS KEPT BY PRIVATEMERCHANTS OR BY HAMAS, AND THEY HAVELOOTED MUCH OFTHAT, AND IT'S NOT AVAILABLE, NOTIN THE REACH OF CITIZENS.

SO IT'S ONLY ON THE VERGEOFSTARVATION, AND MR. NETANYAHU AS HEHIMSELF, PORTRAYS THIS IN THEVIDEO HE RELEASED TODAY, HAD TO SORTOFSURRENDER TO PRESSURE FROM PRESIDENTTRUMP.

ACCORDING TO HIGH OFFICIALSFROMTHE MEDIATING COUNTRIES, QATAR, EGYPT,AND THE UNITED STATES, THIS ISNOT A COINCIDENCETHAT'S BEINGHOSTAGE, ISRAELI AMERICAN CITIZEN.

IT WASRELEASED.

IT'S NOW ISRAEL IS REOPENINGTHE PASSAGE, THE FLOW OF HUMANITARIANAID.

THERE WAS A CONDITION, OR ATLEASTHAMAS UNDERSTOOD FROM THE U. S. THATHE, HAMAS, WHETHER IT WILL GET THEOPENING OF THE GAZA GATESTO HUMANITARIAN.

I BELIEVE IT'S HAPPENING.

THE GOVERNMENTIS GIVING A DIFFERENT --A DIFFERENT REASON.

THEY NEED TO FINDCOALITIONISSUES, BUTIN THE MEANTIME, THE GOOD NEWS ISTHERE IS A RENEWALOF SOME FLOW OFHUMANITARIAN AID.

WE WILL STILLNEED TOUNDERSTAND WHAT WERE THE ASSURANCES.

THEWORD THAT WAS GIVEN FROM THE U. S. TO HAMAS ANDFROM ISRAEL TO THE U. S. SO THE U. S. COULD KEEP IT WORKING IF THEREWAS AN AGREEMENT WITH HAMAS.

>> WHERE DOESTHE WITKOFF PLAN OR PROPOSALSTAND AT THIS POINT AS THE NEGOTIATIONSCONTINUE IN DOHA?

AND THAT WOULD BE AT LEAST A TEMPORARYCEASEFIRE THAT WOULD ALLOW FOR MOREHOSTAGES TO BERELEASED AT THE SAME TIME, AND HUMANITARIANAID TO GO IN.

>> SO THERE WASA SPOKESMAN FOR ISRAEL THAT SAID THATHAMAS, BECAUSE OF THE MILITARYPRESSURE, CAME BACK TO THE NEGOTIATIONTABLE.

I THINK WHAT REALLYHAPPENED WAS THAT BOTHSIDES AGREED THAT NO FREE CONDITIONS,HAMAS SORT OF WITHDREW FROM ITS PRECONDITIONTO START AN AGREEMENTWITH AN AGREEMENT ON THE END OF THEWAR WITH THEHOSTILITIES, PERMANENT CEASEFIRE,AND THE WITHDRAWAL OFISRAELI FORCES FROM THE GAZA STRIP,BUTISRAEL WITHDREW FROMITS BASICDEMAND OF FOLLOWING THE SO-CALLEDWITKOFF PLAN WHICHIS REALLY AN ISRAELI PLAN IN A DISGUISEOF AN AMERICAN PLAN.

THAT ISAN ADVANCEMENT, BUT IT STILL DOESN'TSOLVE ANYTHING,AND AT THE END, I THINKTHAT BOTH SIDES AT LEAST ACCORDINGTO WHAT WEHEAR FROM DOHA, ARE STUCK IN THEEXACT SAME PLACE THAT THEY WERESTUCK THROUGHOUT THE LASTYEAR KPAHALF AND A HALF.

HAMAS IS WILLINGTO MAKE A DEAL.

RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES,THE PRISONERS, TOTALWITHDRAWAL, A FULL AND PERMANENT CEASEFIRE.

ISRAEL DOESN'T WANT TO END THEWAR UNLESSHAMAS AGREES TO THE EXILEOF SOME OF ITS STRENGTH ANDDISARMAMENT AND BE REPLACED.

NOT JUSTSYMBOLICALLY, BUT ALSO PHYSICALLYON THEGROUND WITH ANOTHER AUTHORITY OR ENTITY.

THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE DISCUSSING.

THIS IS, I THINK, WHERE THEYARE STUCK NOW.

>> IN THE FINAL FEWSECONDSTHAT WE HAVE TOGETHER, I WAS STRUCK,RONEN, BYAPOST BY FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER INHEBREW.

I HAVEN'T SEEN IT IN ENGLISH,BUTTRANSLATED, HE BASICALLY IS SAYINGTHAT THE CURRENTSITUATION IS IN LARGE PART, LOOK.

HAMAS JUSTRELEASED WE ALL KNOW THEY COULD ENDTHIS BY RELEASING THE HOSTAGES.

GIVEN THAT THEY HAVE NOT, THE CURRENTSITUATION THE PRIME MINISTER FINDSHIMSELF IN, ISONE THAT HE WAS SAYING HE WAS WARNINGABOUT ALLALONG, AND THAT IS WITHOUT AN ALTERNATIVE,A DAY AFTER PLAN, GOVERNANCE THAT'SNOT HAMAS, THAT THIS SITUATION WOULDINDEEDARISE.

THAT ISRAEL WOULD ACCUSE HAMASOF TAKING ALL OFTHE FOOD AND HUMANITARIAN AID GOINGIN, AND HOARDINGIT AND THEY WOULD BE IN A SITUATIONWHERE THE PEOPLE IN GAZAARE FACING A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

IS THATA VALID ARGUMENT IN YOUR VIEW, ANDFROM WHAT YOU'RE HEARING FROMYOUR SOURCES?

>> ACCORDING TOTHE REPORTING THAT WE HAVE, THIS IS--THISIS CORRECT.

THROUGHOUT THE WAR, SINCEDECEMBER, MAYBE EVEN NOVEMBER OF 2023,IT'S AMAZINGTHAT SO MUCH TIME HAS PASSED.

THISSUFFERING,THIS WAR GOING ON, SO FROM A YEARANDA HALF AGO, THE MINISTEROF DEFENSE, THE FORMER CHIEF OF STAFFANDMANY OTHERS HAVE DEMANDED TO LOOKAT THE DAY AFTER.

WHO WILL REPLACE HAMASBECAUSE BASICALLY THEY SAID THE ONLYREAL ALTERNATIVE IS EITHERHAMAS RULING, SOMETHING ISRAEL WILLNOTACCEPT, OR ISRAEL HAVE A MILITARYRULE THATMOSTISRAELIS, INCLUDING THEY DONOT WANT.

IT CAN ONLY BE SOME KIND OF AREFORM OR SUPPORTED BY OTHERENTITIES BY STEALING AUTHORITY.

NETANYAHUHAS DONE EVERYTHING HE CANNOT TO DISCUSSTHE DAY AFTER INORDER NOT TO BRINGTHE AUTHORITY BECAUSE HE IS BASICALLYCARING FOR THE INTEGRITY OFTHE COALITION, WHICH HE'S AFRAID WILLBE DISASSEMBLEDIF HE BRINGS THE PAIN.

>> AND FINDSHIMSELF IN THIS POSITION NOW WHEREPOTENTIALLYMORE ISOLATED FROM THE UNITED STATES,AND HUMANITARIAN CRISIS LOOMING,AND THE HOSTAGES STILL NOT HOME.

RONEN BERGMAN, THANK YOU.

> >> ALLRIGHT.

NEXTTO ROMANIA WHERE CENTRISTAND PRO-UNION CANDIDATE HAS BEAT HIS OPPONENTIN THE ELECTION.

IT COMES FIVE MONTHS AFTER THEORIGINAL RUN OF THAT VOTE WAS WONBY A DIFFERENT FAR-RIGHTCONTENDER, ONLY FOR THE RESULTS TOBE ANNULLED DUETO ALLEGATIONS OF USSIAN INTERFERENCE.

WHILE SOME EU LEADERS MIGHTBE RELIEVED BY THE RESULTS,GEORGE SIMEON, A NATIONALIST POLITICIANWHO IS PRO-TRUMP ANDOPPOSED TO SUPPORTING UKRAINE MILITARILY,STILLCLAIMED 46% OF THE VOTE.

WHATDOES THAT TELL US ABOUT THE POLITICALFEELING WITHIN ROMANIA ANDEUROPE AND THE ERAS OF DONALD TRUMPANDVLADIMIR PUTIN?

WE HAVEA ROMANIAN POLITICAL SCIENTIST ANDLECTURER ATOXFORD UNIVERSITY WHERE HE JOINS MEFROM NOW.

VLADIMIR, THANK YOU SOMUCH FOR THE TIME.

SO A COLLECTIVESIGH OF RELIEF FOR ALARGE PORTION OF THE COUNTRY THATWAS CONCERNED THAT A MORE POPULIST,MOREPRO-TRUMP-LEANING CANDIDATE WOULD,IN FACT, WIN.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

54% OF THE VOTEWENT FOR DAN.

YOUR REACTION GIVENTHE HISTORIC TURNOUT?

IT WAS A RATHERLARGE TURNOUTTHAT WE'VE SEEN.

WHAT MESSAGE AREROMANIANS SENDING?

>> I WOULD START BY DISPUTINGTHE CHARACTERIZATION THAT HE'SA CENTRIST.

HE'S PRETTY RIGHT-WINGON ISSUES.

HE'SJUST NOT AS RIGHT-WING ASHIS OPPONENT THAT HE DEFEATED LASTNIGHT.

>> OKAY.

>> THIS WAS THEMAIN DRIVER FOR THIS IMPORTANTINCREASE IN TURNOUT.

THIS IS FROM THE FIRST ROUND TO THESECOND ROUND.

PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT AFAR-RIGHT PRESIDENTIN ROMANIA, AND I THINK IT WASN'TAS MUCH A VOTEFOR DAN AS IT WAS A VOTE AGAINSTSIMEON WHO HAD AN ABYSMAL PERFORMANCEINBETWEEN THE TWO ROUNDS, ANDI'M HAPPY TO GO INTO MORE DETAIL ONTHAT.

>> WELL, FORTHE FIRST TIME SINCE1989, NEITHER CANDIDATE CAME FROMONE OF THE MAINSTREAM POLITICAL PARTIES,AND THATIS INTERESTING IN AND OF ITSELF.

DAN CAMPAIGNED TO FIGHT CORRUPTION,AND I KNOW YOUSEEM SKEPTICAL ABOUT THAT CLAIM, ASPOPULAR AS IT MAYBE, AS IMPORTANT OF AN ISSUE AS ITIS WITH VOTERS.

YOU WROTE INTHE "NEW YORK TIMES," BOTH SHARE ANALLEGIANCE TO THEBUSINESS CLASS, JUST DIFFERENT PARTSOF IT, AND HAVE NO PLANSTO ALTER THE COUNTRY'S FUNDAMENTALECONOMICFRAMEWORK.

THIS IS COMMON PRACTICEFOR THE FAR-RIGHT, DESPITE CAPITALIZING ON POPULARANGER ESTABLISHED AGAINST ELITES,IT IS ITSELF A FIGHT FOR STATE POUR.

IN THE PROCESS,THE ORDINARY PEOPLE IT CLAIMS TO REPRESENTARE LEFT BEHIND.

SOTALK TO US ABOUT THAT RATHER CYNICALTAKE ON THE CURRENT --THECURRENT SITUATION AND DYNAMICS INROMANIAN POLITICS, ANDWHAT YOU DO EXPECT OUT OF DAN'S LEADERSHIP.

>> IT'SA CRITICAL TAKEON THE VISION ON BEHALF OF DAN TOADDRESSTHE SOCIAL ECONOMIC ISSUES THATHAVE ALLOWED FOR THE FAR-RIGHT CANDIDATETO DOMESTIC INTO THE SECOND ROUND,AND TO GAIN OVER 5 MILLIONVOTES IN THE SECONDROUND, AND TO HAVE BEHIND HIM, A PARTYTHAT WAS CREATED ONLYFIVE YEARS AGO, BUT HAS ALREADY BECOMETHESECOND FORCE INTHE ROMANIAN PARLIAMENT.

I'M TALKINGABOUT AN ECONOMIC MODEL THATDAN, TOGETHER WITH THE WHOLE MAINSTREAMPOLITICAL ELITE IN ROMANIA HAS ENDORSEDFORTHE LAST 35 YEARS.

AN ECONOMY BASEDONNO WAGES,LOW TAXATION, THAT HAS LEDTO A 45% OF THE POPULATION LIVINGIN POVERTY, OR ON THEVERGE OF POVERTY, THAT HAS LEDTO 5 MILLION ROMANIANS LEAVING THECOUNTRY, OVERWHELMINGLY FOR ECONOMICREASONS, ANDTO CHRONICALLY UNDERFUNDED PUBLICSERVICES,AND THESE SOCIAL ECONOMIC CONDITIONSARETHE FERTILE GROUND FOR THE RISE OFTHE FAR-RIGHT IN ROMANIA,AND EVERYWHERE ELSE.

POLITICAL SCIENTISTS HAVE SHOWN SYSTEMATICALLYOVERTHE PAST DECADETHAT ITS ECONOMIC INSECURITY THATIS THE MAIN DRIVER OFTHEFAR-RIGHT ELECTORAL SUCCESS, AND UNFORTUNATELY,PEOPLE LIKESIMION ARE ABLE TO CAPITALIZEON THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE NO SOLUTIONSTO THOSE PROBLEMS.

BECAUSE I REFERREDTO HISBAD PERFORMANCE IN BETWEEN THE TWOROUNDS, HE'S WON SOCIAL POLICY TOBUILD 1 MILLIONAFFORDABLE HOMES IF HE BECOMES PRESIDENT.

HEHIMSELF ADMITTED TO BE JUSTPOLITICAL MARKETING.

SO I THINK HE MENTIONED THE UNIQUEACHIEVEMENTS TOBREAK AN ELECTORAL PROMISE EVEN BEFORETHE ELECTIONS WERE OVER.

SOPEOPLE FELT THAT SIMION IS MAYBENOT AS DIFFERENT FROM THE MAINSTREAMPOLITICIANS THATHE CLAIMS TO BE AN ALTERNATIVE TO,WHICH ITHINK ALLOWED DAN TO WIN LAST NIGHT.

>> THE WORLDBECAME MORE AWARE AND STARTED FOCUSINGMORE ONROMANIA'SELECTION SOME SIX MONTHS AGO AFTERTHE COUNTRY'S TOP COURT CANCELED THEELECTION OVER WHATIT SAID WAS RUSSIAN POLITICAL INTERFERENCE,ANDTHAT'S A MOVE THAT --THAT DISABLEDTHE FAR-RIGHT NATIONALIST CANDIDATEAT THE TIME WHOWAS DOING QUITE WELL INTHE POLLS.

WE HEARD THE PRESIDENT--THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATESJUST WEEKS INTO THIS ADMINISTRATION'STERM IN EUROPE, REALLY CONDEMN THATMOVE BYTHE ROMANIAN COURTS, AND SUGGESTINGTHAT IFYOUR COUNTRY'S DEMOCRACY IS SO WEAKTHAT THEY HAVETO CANCEL AN ELECTION BECAUSE OF SOMEINTERFERENCE,THAT SPEAKS TO THE STABILITYOF DEMOCRACY IN ROMANIA.

I'M JUSTWONDERING, IF YOU COULD TALK OUR VIEWERSTHROUGH THE REACTION THAT HAD,THE FACT THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT OFTHE UNITED STATES WEIGHED IN ONTHIS, AND WHAT YOU MADE OF HIS COMMENTS.

>> I THINK THAT THERE IS OF COURSE,A LEGALIST ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF THEMEASURETAKEN BY THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURTSTO CANCELTHE ELECTIONSAND BAR THAT PERSON FROM STANDING,AND I THINK THAT VANCE'S DECLARATIONKINDOF UNDERMINED ANDSIMION'S ATTEMPT TO ALIGN HIMSELFWITH THETRUMP ADMINISTRATION,UNDERMINED HIS SOVEREIGNIST CREDENTIALS.

UNDERMINEDHIS IDEA TO TAKE THE COUNTRY BACKFROM THEGLOBAL ELITES, RIGHT?

BASICALLY THEREWAS THIS --THERE WAS THIS PARADOX AT PLAY.

ONTHEONE HAND, YOU CLAIM TO BEA NATIONALIST LEADER, BUT AT THE SAMETIME, YOU ARE HAPPY TO REPEATEVERY SINGLE FOREIGN POLICY THATCOMES FROM WASHINGTON.

SO THISWAS, I THINK --THIS WAS A WAY FORHIM TOALIENATE SOME OF HIS --SOME OF HISBASE, BUT AT THE SAMETIME, THESE KIND OF CONSTITUTIONALLEGALIST MEASURES AGAINSTFAR-RIGHT CANDIDATES, CAN ONLY DELAYTHEINEVITABLE.

SO THAT CANDIDATE WASBARRED.

HE COULDN'T RUN ANYMORE, ANDHIS SUCCESSOR, SIMION,GOT TWICE THE PERCENTAGE THAT HEGOT IN NOVEMBER.

WHICH SHOWS IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO TAKETHISLEGALIST, CONSTITUTIONALIST APPROACHTOTACKLE THE FAR-RIGHT.

WE HAVETO ADDRESS THE SYMPTOMS,THE SOCIOECONOMIC CAUSES THAT FUELTHE RISE OF THEFAR-RIGHT.

>> YOU CLEAR LY POINTEDOUT IT WAS THE ECONOMIC MISFORTUNESAND THE CHALLENGES THAT THE COUNTRYISFACING THAT DROVE PEOPLE OUT TO THEPOLLS AND VOTE THEWAY THEY DID.

VLADIMIRBORTUN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOININGUS.

> >> MANY OF YOU ARE LIKELY FAMILIARWITH THE GREATAMERICAN AUTHOR MARK TWAIN WHOSE MOSTFAMOUSWORKS INCLUDE "THE ADVENTURES OF TOMSAWYER" AND"THE ADVENTURES ORHUCKLEBERRY FINN. "

TWAIN WAS A COURAGEOUSADVOCATE FORRACIAL EQUALITY THROUGHOUT THE 1800s,USING HISWRITING TO ENTERTAIN AND INFORM THEWORLD.

WELL, NOW THEAUTHOR'S LIFE IS THE TOPIC FOR RONCHERNOW'S LATEST BOOK, AND HE JOINSWALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S A PURE DELIGHT TO BE HERE,WALTER.

THANK YOU.

>> IN YOUR GREATBIOGRAPHY OF MARK TWAIN THAT JUSTCAME OUT, YOU HAVE A SENTENCE NEARTHE BEGINNINGTHAT SAYS, WHAT ANY BIOGRAPHYOF MARK TWAIN DEMANDSIS HIS VOICE WHICH SPARKLED EVEN INHIS DARKEST MOMENTS.

MAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF DARK MOMENTSWITHIN THISBOOK, BUT THE PROS READ ALMOSTLIKE MARK TWAIN AND THE FLOWING OFTHE RIVER.

DIDYOU CONSCIOUSLY TRY TO MIMIC HIS VOICEIN SOME WAYS?

>> IDIDN'T TRY TOMIMIC HIS VOICE.

I'LL HAVE TO TELLYOU.

IT'S ROUGH ON THE EGO OF THEBIOGRAPHER TO BE WRITING ABOUT A WRITERTHAT'SGREATER THAN YOU ARE.

HAVING SPENTSIX YEARS WITH MARKTWAIN'S LANGUAGE AND HUMOR FLOWINGTHROUGH MY VEINS, MAYBEIT ELEVATED MY WRITING A LITTLE BIT.

I LIKE TO THINK THAT,BUT THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT.

I WAS NOT IN ANYWAY TRYING TO ADAPT MY WRITING TOIT.

ALTHOUGH I MUST TELL YOU THAT IFELT WRITING THIS BOOK, MYPROPOSE PROSE WAS A LITTLE BIT LOOSERAND FREER WHEN IWAS SAYING ABOUTULISS IS S. GRANT, YOU CAN'T HAVEA LOT OF FUN WITH THE PROS.

YOUFEEL LIKE YOU HAVE TOADOPT A FORMALAND SOLEMN PROSE,BUT I THINK MARK TWAIN HAD A LIBERATINGEFFECT ONME.

>> THE NONHUMAN CHARACTER IS THERIVER AND IT ALL FLOWS AND YOU HAVEA NARRATIVE THAT FLOWS LIKE A RIVER.

HOW IMPORTANTWAS HISCHILDHOOD IN HANNIBAL AND BECOMINGA RIVER PILOT?

>> HIS FAMILYMOVED TO HANNIBAL WHICH WAS RIGHTON THEMISSISSIPPI RIVER, AND THAT --HERE'STHIS REMOTEBACKWATER.

IT'S IN THE NORTHEAST CORNEROF MISSOURI.

SLAVE-OWNING FAMILY IN A SLAVE-OWNINGSTATE, BUT HE WOULD WALKOUT THE DOOR AND TURN TO HIS LEFTANDTHERE JUST A BLOCK OR TWO AWAY, WASTHISBROAD, SHINING, MAGNIFICENT RIVER,AND THE RIVERBROUGHT ALL THE WORLD INTOHIS LIFE BECAUSE THE STEAM BOATS WOULDDOCK.

IT WAS THEBIG EVENT OF THE DAY IN THE TOWN,AND OFF THESTEAM BOATS WOULD CORE EVERYTHINGFROMCIRCUSES TO MINSTREL SHOWS TO TRAVELINGSALESMENTO PASSENGERS.

SO IT CONNECTED HIMWITH AMUCH LARGER WORLD AND ITHINK IT GAVE HIM THIS, YOU KNOW,FANTASY OF ESCAPE FROMTHIS WORLD.

>> HE GREW UP IN A SLAVE-HOLDING FAMILY IN A SLAVE-HOLDINGSTATE, AND YET IN SOMEWAYS, HE WRITES WHAT IS THEGREATEST ANTI-SLAVERY BOOK IN THEENGLISH LANGUAGE AT LEAST.

YOU KNOW,"HUCKLEBERRY FINN".

IRONICALLY ITGETS BANNED SOMETIMES BECAUSE IT USESTHE "N" WORD.

TELL US ABOUT HIS EVOLUTION ON RACE.

WHEN DID HEREALIZE HOW ABHORRENT SLAVERY WAS?

>> HE WAS BORN INTO ASLAVE-OWNING FAMILY, SLAVE-OWNINGSTATE.

HE SAID THAT IN THE WORLD OF HIS CHILDHOOD,A UNIVERSAL STILLNESS RAINED ABOUTTHE EVILOF SLAVERY.

HE WAS TAUGHT INCHURCH NOT ONLY THAT SLAVERYWAS ACCEPTABLE, THAT SLAVERY WAS SACRED,AND A PECULIAR PET OF THE DEITY THATHE SAID.

WHEN HE'S A TEENAGER GOING THROUGHHIS LETTERS, IT'S FUEL OF CRUDE,RACIST LANGUAGE, EXACTLY WHAT YOUWOULD EXPECT FROM SOMEONEGROWING UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, BUTTHENWHEN --WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE'S IN HISEARLY 30s,HE WOOS AND WEDS A YOUNGHEIRESS FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK NAMEDLIBBY LANGDON, AND THE FAMILY BRINGSMUCH MORE THANJUST WEALTH INTO HIS LIFE BECAUSETHEY HADBEEN ABOLITIONISTS, ACTIVE ABOLITIONISTSON THEUNDERGROUND RAILROAD.

THEY KNEW FREDERICKDOUGLASS.

THEYHAD COMFORTED AND SHELTEREDFREDERICK DOUGLASS, AND SO MARK TWAIN'SVIEWSBEGINTO CHANGE AND CHANGE QUITE RADICALLY.

HIS FRIEND SAID THAT MARK TWAIN WASTHEMOST DE-SOUTHERNIZED SOUTHERNER THATHE MET BECAUSE HE REALLYRECREATES HIMSELF AS THISNORTHEASTERN LIBERAL LIVING IN A MANSIONIN HARTFORD,CONNECTICUT, BUT I TRIED VERY HARDIN THE BOOK BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCHCONTROVERSY ABOUTTWAIN AND RACE TO SHOW THISEXTRAORDINARY EVOLUTION OF HIS VIEWSFROMCRUDE, RACISM OF HIS YOUTH AND I THINKTHAT HE BECOMES THE MOSTENLIGHTENED AND TOLERANT OF ALL WHITEAUTHORS IN THE LATE 19th CENTURY.

HEDOES THINGS LIKE HE PAYS FOR THE LAWSCHOOL EDUCATION OFA BRILLIANT YOUNG BLACK LAW STUDENTNAMEDWARREN T. McWYNN ANDHE WRITES A LETTER TO THE DEAN OFTHE LAW SCHOOL IN WHICHHE SAYS --EXPLAIN YUGOSLAVIA --EXPLAININGWHYHE'S PAYING FOR THIS BLACK STUDENT.

HE SAID THE SHAME OF IT ISOURS,NOT THEIRS.

AND COMMENTING ON THISEPISODE, HIS CLOSE FRIEND SAID THATMARK TWAIN AS A WHITE MAN, HELD HIMSELFPERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEWHITE RACE HAD DONE TO THE BLACK RACE,ANDIN PAYING FOR THIS LAW STUDENT, HEFELT THAT HE WAS MAKINGHIS OWN FORM OF REPARATION TO THEBLACKRACE, AND HE ACTUALLY USED THAT WORD,REPARATION.

SO I DESCRIBE A LOT OF ACTIVITIESIN THE BOOKTHAT TWAIN DID ON BEHALF OF THE BLACKCOMMUNITY.

HE WAS AMAJOR PROMOTER FOR INSTANCE, OFTHE JUBILEE SINGERS.

IT WAS ANASHVILLE SCHOOL THAT HAD BEEN SETUP TO EDUCATEBLACKS BORN INTO SLAVERY AFTER THECIVIL WAR, ANDTWAIN ADORES THIS GROUP.

HE SAYS THEIR PLAYING OF MELODIESMOVED HIM LIKE NOTHING ELSE.

HE'S A MAJOR FORCE IN PROMOTING THEMAND THE SCHOOLS.

HE FELT SOSTRONGLY ABOUT THE CENTRALLY OF RACEAND SLAVERY THAT HE SAID THE BIRTHDAYOF AMERICAN LIBERTY WAS NOT1776, BUT 1865, THE YEAR THAT SLAVERYWASOUTLAWED, AND HE SAIDMOCKINGLY, SAID THE DECLARATION OFINDEPENDENCE SHOULDHAVE SAID THAT ALL WHITE MEN AREALL CREATED EQUAL.

SO HE BECOMES VERYADVANCED AND VERY OUTSPOKENON THIS ISSUE WHEREHIS VIEWS ARE VERY BENIGHTED EARLYON.

>> THAT'S THE POINT.

YOU TALK ABOUTHOW HE'S VERY ENLIGHTENED BY THEEND ON SLAVERY, BUT THERE'SAN EVOLUTION THAT HAPPENS, WHICH MAKESTHE BOOK INTERESTING.

THERE'SEVEN AN EVOLUTION, I THINK, FROM READINGTHE BOOK BETWEEN WRITING "TOM SAWYER,"AND WRITING"HUCKLEBERRY FINN" BECAUSETOM SAWYER HAS SORT OF THE CELEBRATIONOF THEANTI-BELLUM SOUTHWHEREAS HUCKLEBERRY FINN IS A DIFFERENTBOOK.

>> TOM SAWYER ISTHE DIFFERENTINTRODUCTION TO BOYHOOD ANDHE'STHIS FANT ASIST AND HE'S READING THESEBOOKS ANDMOON SHINE, AND IT'S A SUN LIT TOWNTHAT'S SCRUBBEDCLEAN OF SLAVERY.

HE THEN RETURNSTO THE TOWNOF HANNIBAL WHICH HE CALLS ST. PETERSBURG IN "HUCK FINN," AND FARAND AWAY, THE MOSTLIKABLE, NOTABLE --NOBLE FIGURE INTHEBOOK IS THE SLAVE,JIM, AND JIM IS DRAWNWITH GREAT AFFECTION, ANDDIGNITY, AND PRIDE.

THERE ARE,AS MANY PEOPLE POINTED OUT, CERTAINMINSTREL AFFECTATIONS THAT HE HASGRANTED ONTO THAT PORTRAIT.

IT'S NOT A PERFECT PORTRAIT, BUT ASHUCK AND JIM GO DOWN THE RIVER,ALL THESE SOUTHERN TOWNS FULL OF SOUTHERNWHITES THATTHEY'RE PASSING, THE SOUTHERN WHITESARE, YOUKNOW, VIOLENT AND CRUDE ANDPROFANE, AND THE FIGURE WHO STANDSUP ASTHE MOST NOBLE AND HUMANEFIGURE IS THE ONE MAIN BLACK FIGUREIN THE --INTHE STORY, JIM.

AND I KNOW, YOUKNOW, PERCIVAL EVERETT WROTE THISFANTASTIC BOOK CALLED"JAMES,"IN WHICH HE INTENDS TO GIVE A MUCHFULLER, RICHER PORTRAITOF JIM/JAMES, AND I DON'TTHINK THAT MARK TWAIN AS A WHITE MANWOULD HAVE BEEN CAPABLE OFCREATING SUCH A MULTI-DIMENSIONALFIGURE AT THAT TIME,MULTI-DIMENSIONAL AS HEDOES WITH HUCK FINN, SO WHAT I LIKEABOUT JAMES IS ITHINK THAT IT'S ACORRECTIVE TO "HUCK FINN",BUT IT'S NOT ADEBUNKING BOOK.

IN FACT, PERCIVALEVERETT WAS ASKED, WHAT DO YOUSAY TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BAN"HUCK FINN" FROM THE SCHOOLS?

HE SAYS,I SAY THEY'VE NEVER READTHE BOOK, YOU KNOW?

SO ITHINK THAT EVEN AS HE'S CORRECTINGMARK TWAIN,HE'S BEEN HONORING MARK TWAIN AT THESAME TIME, AND ALSO HE'S GOTAN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PEOPLE TO GOBACK AND READ"THE ADVENTURES OF HUCKLEBERRY FINN,"WHICH IS GREAT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVEIN THE BOOK QUITE A BIT IS THIS DARKSIDE OF MARK TWAIN, AND THE DEPRESSIONHEHAD, AND HOW IT --AND YOU SAYSOME MYSTERIOUS ANGER, SOMEPERVASIVEMELANCHOLY FIRED HIS HUMOR.

DO YOUTHINK THAT THEDEPRESSION WAS SORT OF INTERTWINEDWITH WHY HE WAS AHUMORIST?

>> IT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION,WALTER.

I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES, YOU KNOW,THE IMAGE THAT THEAMERICANS HAVE OF MARK TWAIN IS OFA VERY CHARMING AND GENIAL MAN STANDINGUPTHERE IN A WHITE SUIT WITH THE CIGARSPOUTING WITTICISMS, AND THAT WASTRUE OF HISPUBLIC PERSONA.

UNDER THE SURFACE,HE WAS KIND OF OFTENVERY MOODY AND TEMPERAMENTAL.

HE HIMSELF SAID --HAD A VOLATILE TEMPERAMENTANDHE SAID THAT, MY EMOTIONS VEER FROMEXTREME TOEXTREME, AND I THINK AS I --THE DEEPERI GOT INTO THE BOOK, I FELTTHAT IN A WAY, HE FIT INTO ACERTAIN CLASSIC STEREOTYPE OF THEFUNNYMEN, THEFUNNYMEN WHO ISSAD, THE CLOWN WHO'S SAD UNDER THESURFACE, AND I THINK THAT HEWAS USING HIS HUMOR AS A WAYOF RELIEVING ALL OF THIS KIND OF DARKNESSAND ANGER THAT HE CARRIED FROM HISPAST.

HE WAS VERYHAUNTED BY HIS CHILDHOOD POVERTY.

HIS FATHER HAD FAILED INBUSINESS FIVE TIMES.

I THINK HE HADTHE DIFFICULTYWHEN HE WAS A CHILD.

HE HAD THIS VERY COLD AND DISTANTFATHER AND HE ONLYSAID TWO THINGS ABOUT HIS FATHER ANDTHEY'RE BOTH REVEALING.

HE SAID, OUR RELATIONSHIP AMOUNTEDTO A LITTLE MORE THANAN INTRODUCTION, AND THEN HE ALSOSAIDMY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY FATHER WASONE OF ARMED NEUTRALITY.

SO THERE WAS A KIND OF STUNTED EMOTIONALGROWTH THERE, AND THEDARKER THE TOPIC, THE FUNNIER MARKTWAIN WAS.

I MEAN, THERE'S SO MANY FUNNY LINESTHAT MARK TWAIN HAD ABOUT HIS OWNDEATH.

THE MOST FAMOUS ONE IS WHENHE SAID THAT --THE REPORTS OF HISDEATH WERE GREATLY EXAGGERATED, BUTTHEREWERE PLENTY THAT HE SAID, THE PRESSCALLED HIM UP AND SAID, THEREARE RUMORS YOU'RE DYING AND HE SAID,I WOULDDO NO SUCH THING AT MY TIME OF LIFE.

IT'S THE DARKER THEMATERIAL, THE FUNNIER HE WAS, ANDI THINKTHAT TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT WHYHIS HUMOR HAS BEEN SO LONG-LASTING.

>> WELL, ONE OF THECORE PARTS OF HIS HUMOR IS POKINGFUN ATTHE PRETENSIONS OF THE ELITE, ANDOF COURSE,HE COINS THE TERM "GILDEDAGE," WHICH IS WHATHE REFER TO THEERA OF ROBBERBARONS, AND WE SEEM TO BE IN ANEW GILDED AGE RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU SEETHIS RELEVANCEOF HIM TO OUR NEW GILDED AGE?

>> ITHINK THAT ISPART OF TWAIN'S FAILURE, RIGHT?

THE FIRST NOVEL WAS CALLED "GILDEDAGE," WITH CHARLES DUDLEY WARNER,AND HE TALKED ABOUT THERAMPANT MATERIALISM IN AMERICA.

HETALKED ABOUT OUR MORAL ULCERS, ANDHE SAIDVERY POWERFULTHINGS ABOUT THE ROBBER BARONS OFHIS OWN AGE.

HE SAIDOF JAY GOULD, HE SAID BEFORE HIM,AMERICANS DESIRED MONEY.

HE SAID,AFTERJAY GOULD, THEY BOWED DOWN AND WORSHIPPEDIT.

HE WROTE AN OPEN LETTER TOCOMMANDORE VANDERBILT AND HESAID, WHEN AN AMERICAN HAS SO MUCHWEALTH AND HAS MADE A GOD OFIT RATHER THAN HIS SERVANTS, AND WE'REGOING THROUGHA VERY SIMILAR PERIOD NOW OF HUMORINGABOUTTHIS BRILLIANTLY, ABOUT TREMENDOUSTECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATIONS,CREATINGHUGE NEW FORTUNES,CREATING EXTREMES OF INEQUALITY, BUTONETHING I HAVE TO POINT OUT, WALTER,IS THAT, YOU KNOW, MARK TWAINON PAPER ISALWAYS RAILING AGAINSTTHEPOLITICRATS,BUT HE NOT ONLY WANTED TO BE RICH.

HE WANTED TO BEFILTHY RICH.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OFPLACES THAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOKWHEREHE INVESTS IN DIFFERENTNEW TECHNOLOGIES, THAT HEIMAGINES HE'S GOING TO HAVE AGLOBAL MONOPOLY.

SO PEOPLE KIND OFHAVE THIS IDEA BECAUSE HE WAS ALWAYSSATIRIZING THERICH THAT HE HAD NO INTEREST IN BEINGRICH WHICH WAS EXACTLYTHE OPPOSITE OF THETRUTH.

ONE OF HIS BIOGRAPHERSSAID, THIS IS PROBABLY NEVER ANAMERICAN WRITER WHO WAS SO OBSESSEDWITHTHE CHINK AND RUSTLE AND LURE OF MONEYASMARK TWAIN.

>> OVER THE YEARS, THEDIFFERENT TYPES OFBIOGRAPHIES OF MARK TWAIN REFLECTSOMETIMES, THE CURRENT PERIOD WE'REIN.

>> YEAH.

>> I KNOW THAT, YOUKNOW, BERNARD DEVOTTO DID ONEBACK IN THE DEPRESSION, AND THEN JUSTINCAPLAN DOES "MR. CLEMENS AND MARKTWAIN,"WHICH SHOWS THE SCHIZOPHRENIA OF HISCHARACTER HEINVENTED IN THE WRITING HE DID.

HOWDO YOU SEEUS LOOKING ATTWAIN THROUGH THE LENS OF OUR CURRENTTIMES?

>> I THINK, WALTER, THAT MAYBETHE MOST IMPORTANT THING RIGHT NOWIS THAT MARK TWAIN WAS A FEARLESSANDCOURAGEOUS AND OUTSPOKEN FIGURE,THAT HE IN MANY WAYS,FUNCTIONEDAS THE CONSCIENCE OF AMERICAN SOCIETY,AND I THINK THAT HE HAD VIEWS ON ANUMBER OF TOPICSTHAT RESONATETODAYTHROUGH HIS PAT RIOTISM.

HE LAUGHED AT THAT GROTESQUE WORD,PATRIOTISM.

ITDROVE HIM THAT EXPRESSION, MY COUNTRY,RIGHT OR WRONG.

HE SAID, WE SHOULD SUPPORT OUR COUNTRYALL THE TIME AND OUR GOVERNMENT WHENIT DESERVES IT.

HE ALSO --THISRESONATES TODAY.

HE WAS VERY ALARMEDBY THEHYPERPARTISANSHIP OF HIS TIME.

ITGOT SO BAD, HEAD SAID, THAT IFTHE DEMOCRATS INCLUDED THE MULTIPLICATIONTABLE INTHEIR PLATFORM, THE REPUBLICANS WOULDVOTE IT DOWN AT THENEXT ELECTION.

SOUND FAMILIAR?

AND ALSO A SUBJECT DEAR TO US BOTH,HE WASA FIERCE DEFENDER OF THE FREEDOM OFTHE PRESS.

HE SAID THAT THEIRREVERENCE OF THE PRESS IS A CHAMPIONOFLIBERTY, AND IT'S A SURESTDEFENSE.

I THINK THE OUTSPOKEN QUALITIESVERY IMPORTANT AT THE MOMENT BECAUSEWE'RE LIVINGIN A MOMENT WHERE PEOPLE ON BOTH THELEFT AND THE RIGHT FEELVERY MUZZLED.

THEY FEEL FEARFUL OF EXPRESSING, YOUKNOW, THEIR TRUEOPINIONS.

MARK TWAIN HAD THAT WHENHE WAS YOUNGER.

HE WASALWAYS AFRAID THAT IF HE TOLD PEOPLEWHATHE REALLY FELT ABOUT POLITICS IN RELIGIONAND OTHER THINGS, THAT HEWOULD ALIENATE THIS LARGE READERSHIP,BUT WHATHAPPENS AS HE GETS OLDER,HE LETS IT RIP, ANDSUDDENLY, ALL THESE STRONGAND RADICAL VIEWS BEGIN TO EMERGE.

>> I ONCEHAD AN ATTITUDE, AND A WRITER WROTEINTHE MARGINS, IT WASALICE MAYHEW OFMAKING SURE YOU STUCK TO A CHRONOLOGY.

HOW IMPORTANT WAS KROCHRONOLOGY IN SHOWING THE BIRTH OFA PERSON YOU HAVEOF A SUBJECT?

>> CHRONOLOGY IS THEBACKBONE OF THE BOOK,AND YOU HAVE TO KIND OF PERIODICALLY,YOU KNOW, VEER OFF INTO THEMATICSTUFF, AND, YOU KNOW, GIVING A BACKGROUND,BUT I FEEL THAT THE CHRONOLOGY, NOTONLY GIVESA KIND OF PROPULSIVE, YOU KNOW, FORCETO THE BOOK, BUT I WANT TO SHOWTHIS PERSON AS IT WERE NOT JUST BEINGMARK TWAIN, BUTBECOMING MARK TWAIN.

I WANTTO SHOW HIM, YOU KNOW, UNFOLDING,AND HEIS SOMEONE WHO TRAVELS SO FAR FROMHIS ROOTS.

HE'S THIS BAREFOOT BOY FROM HANNIBAL.

HE ENDS UP BEING THE MOST WORLDLYANDWELL-TRAVELED AMERICAN AUTHOR.

WE TEND TO THINK HE WAS THEQUINTESSENTIAL AMERICAN.

HE SPENT11 YEARS OUTSIDE OF THE UNITEDSTATES, SO HE'S ACTUALLY THE MOSTCOSMOPOLITAN FIGURE AMONG AMERICANWRITERS, BUTFOR ME, YOU KNOW, THE JOY IS KINDOFLINING EVERYTHING UP CHRONOLOGICALLYSO THAT YOU CAN SEE THE CHANGES TAKINGPLACE, AND SOMETIMES THEY'RE ALMOSTIMPERCEPTIBLEFROM PAGE TO PAGE UNTIL YOU THEN SORTOFLOOK BACK, YOU KNOW, A CHAPTER ORLOOK BACK TEN CHAPTERS ANDYOU SEE JUST HOW MUCH THIS PERSONHAS GROWN, ANDIF IT'S AN INTERESTING FIGURE, ANDAN IMPORTANTFIGURE, THIS PERSON ENDS UPBEING SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEENALMOST UNIMAGINABLE EARLIER INTHE LIFE.

>> RON CHERNOW, THANK YOUSO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>IT'S BEEN A GREAT PLEASURE, WALTER.

THANK YOU.

> >>AND FINALLY, THIS IS THE HOUR FORLOVE.

WE MUST NOT CLOSE OURSELVES OFF INOUR SMALL GROUPS.

THOSEARE WORDS OF UNITY FROM POPE LEO ASHECELEBRATED HIS INAUGURAL MASS THISWEEKEND.

ATTENDED BY LEADERSAND DIGNITARIES FROM ALL OVER THEWORLD, AND JUST LOOK AT THIS TOUCHINGMOMENT, POPE LEOHUGGING HIS BROTHER, AND WELCOMINGHIM TO MASS.

THAT'SA NICE MOMENT THERE.

> >> AND THAT'SIT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOUWANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UPON THE SHOW EACHNIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OURNEWSLETTER ATPBS.

COM/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR JOININGUS.