- [Announcer 1] "The Songwriters" is supported in part by... the Nashville Convention and Visitors Corporation, Rusty and Kacie Gaston, the Mike Curb Foundation, SESAC, BMI, and ASCAP, Rich & Charlotte Hallworth, Kerry O'Neil & Carla Wallace.

Additional support is provided by... (bright piano music) ♪♪ (bright piano music continues) ♪♪ (mellow guitar music) ♪♪ (mellow guitar music continues) ♪♪ (mellow guitar music continues) ♪♪ - Welcome to "The Songwriters."

I'm Ken Paulson, and today we are presenting this show from a new location.

This is Allentown Studio, which is a very cool building in the heart of Music Row.

The Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame have had members whose songs have been recorded here, and a number of performers who are also in the Hall of Fame who have recorded here as well.

And it is a very special place, and we're honored to be here.

But particularly honored to welcome this man, one of the newest inductees into the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame: Mr.

Rafe Van Hoy.

- Thanks, Ken.

- I am so glad to see you, and I'm happy that you're part of this organization now.

- Well, me too.

It's a gigantic bright spot in my life.

I haven't stopped smiling since I found out.

- That is something special.

You know, the Butte Montana Songwriters Hall of Fame is not anywhere near what this one is.

(Rafe chuckling) - Yeah.

- The competition to make this, you know, it's sort of astonishing.

- It's amazing, actually, it's humbling to see the people that are in it.

Some of them are my friends, some of them are just... legends that have gone on, and some of my friends aren't here anymore, too.

So it's a huge honor.

- Yeah.

And so many people I've talked to, who know you, have said, "It's about time."

They're very glad to welcome you to this Hall of Fame.

And- - It's nice of them to say that.

I mean, I had no illusions that I would ever be in it, to be honest with you, but... - Well, you're where you belong.

- Yeah, thank you.

- And this is a career that goes back, forgive me, about a half a century, and I know you're the pride of Bristol, Tennessee.

Do they have like a plaque?

- They don't, I don't think.

(chuckles) - [Ken] We should work on that.

- Well, you know, they actually have a Birthplace of Country Music Hall of Fame because, you know, it's known as the place where Ralph Peer came down from New York, recorded the Carter Family and- - Jimmie Rodgers, yeah.

- Jimmie Rodgers and all these people that basically was the beginning of what became Country music.

And so, now they have a museum there that's really, really nice downtown.

It's a real beautiful downtown 'cause the State Street is right on the Tennessee, Virginia line.

- Yeah.

- So if you stand in the middle of the street, you got a foot in Tennessee and a foot in Virginia.

But they have a museum there that I think is mostly dedicated to that.

But, having said that, there are a lot of people that have done things in the music business, like Dave Loggins, that if they ever wanted to expand it to include other people like that, Kim Williams was from Kingsport 20 miles away, so there's a lot of people from around there.

- And for you and Kim Williams, it wasn't a long trek to Nashville to begin your career.

- Right.

- I understand that it wasn't too long before you got your first chart hit.

Can you tell us about that?

- Well, (chuckles) I signed a deal... I don't want to digress too far, but I signed a deal with Curly Putman's company in 1972, two months after I had moved to town with my parents.

- [Ken] Wow.

- And it wasn't a deal with money, it was basically more like an apprenticeship, you know, 'cause I did not know how to write commercial songs that would get recorded.

But Curly gave me a home, he said, "Show up here every day and learn," and that's what I did, that was kind of like my college stint, was to go on Music Row every day, very close to here, actually, and try to learn to write songs that somebody might want to record someday.

- What did they see in you that told them you were not gonna be just another kid?

- I have no clue.

(Ken chuckles) I have no clue because those tapes that I played for 'em that I had made are songs that me and my dad wrote, 'cause I didn't... My dad was a visionary, he told me I should write songs when I was 15, then I started off a guitar player, and that's all I wanted to do.

And I didn't write any songs after he suggested that I should.

(Ken chuckles) And so, he wrote whole lyrics and gave 'em to me and went, "Put some music to that," and that's how I became a songwriter.

- How did your dad feel about your career in the '70s when you suddenly became one of the hottest writers in Nashville?

- Well, I think he was super proud and glad, 'cause I was lucky that I had a very supportive family.

A lot of people that know the music business didn't necessarily have that.

You know, I knew one of my friends, when he had his first number one record, he called his mom up and said, "Hey, I've got the number one song in the nation right now," and she goes, "Oh, that's sweet, honey.

Now, what are you gonna do for a job?"

(Ken chuckles) - Well, let's talk about that meteoric rise of that first chart single.

What was the song and where did it go to?

- Well, the first song... One of the first songs I was trying to write by just listening to, you know, what was going on and trying to absorb what other writers were doing and what was in the charts of the Country radio was a song I wrote called "Cryin' Eyes," don't look it up.

(Ken chuckles) And this is my memory of it anyway.

A girl named Patti Tierney recorded it and it was, I remember it being a good record.

But it charted at 99, which is like the least- - You're on your way.

- You can chart... - Yeah.

- Yeah.

And I think it stayed for a week, and it was gone.

(Ken chuckles) So it was like the least way that you could be on the charts, you know?

- But that puts you ahead of 99.9% of all songwriters right there.

- Yeah.

Well, it was kind of early, so I was kind of amazed that that even happened, to be honest with you.

- Well, it didn't take long.

You know, by the mid '70s, you had this amazing, amazing George Jones, Tammy Wynette cut called "Golden Ring."

It's a song that will forever be associated with the two of them and their era.

Tell us about that song.

- Well, first of all, I never envisioned that it would turn into such a classic.

I mean, not that it wasn't a great record, and George and Tammy were... Everything they did is really pretty amazing, really, and their voices were amazing together.

But just being 21 years old when I first heard it, you know, my publisher, Buddy Killen, says, "Do you know how big this is gonna be?"

And I went, "I really don't.

You think it's a hit?"

He goes, "Oh, yeah."

(Ken chuckles) But I didn't steal that, I thought, well, they're like the hottest artists in Country music at the time, so I figured it would do well, and it did.

I mean, it was like, to go on a tangent, it was like winning... I tell people it's like winning the song lottery because I had become friends with Bobby Braddock who had written tons of hits- - Right.

- Before that, and since then, like "He Stopped Loving Her Today," and all the... Just a long list of incredible songs.

- Right.

- But I'd gotten to be friends with Bobby, and he was supposed to meet Curly Putman who signed me to my deal to finish a song, an idea for a song, that Bobby had that he wanted to pitch to George and Tammy.

They'd gotten a divorce recently.

I think a lot of people thought they may never sing together again, but they had decided to go ahead and do another album together.

And so, they were recording the next week and Bobby had a song idea he wanted to finish with Curly.

Curly lived in Lebanon (TN) and he didn't feel like driving to town that day.

(Ken chuckles) Thanks, Curly.

So I was standing there and Bobby said, "Do you wanna help me finish this song?"

I went, "Yeah."

- Wow.

- And so, I basically coat-tailed on Bobby on that.

He wrote the lion's share of that, but...I helped!

It was Shake 'n Bake and I helped.

I can't remember exactly what I did, but I know about three hours later, we had a song.

And then he went to Alabama to visit a girlfriend and I went upstairs and put it down with a guitar vocal, which was basically the arrangement that George and Tammy did.

Very, very similar.

- Can we hear that now?

- [Rafe] Sure.

- I appreciate it.

(guitar strumming) ♪♪ - Of course, their version is way better than mine.

(Ken chuckles) (intro to "Golden Ring") ♪♪ ♪ In a pawn shop in Chicago ♪ ♪ On a sunny summer's day ♪ ♪ A couple gazes at the wedding rings there on display ♪ ♪ She smiles and nods her head ♪ ♪ As he says, honey, that's for you ♪ ♪ It's not much, but it's the best that I can do ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Golden ring, golden ring with one tiny little stone ♪ ♪ Shy, waiting there, waiting there ♪ ♪ For someone to take you home ♪ ♪ By itself, by itself it's just a cold metallic thing ♪ ♪ Only love can make a golden wedding ring ♪ (soulful mellow Country guitar music) ♪ In a little wedding chapel later on that afternoon ♪ ♪ An old upright piano plays that old familiar tune ♪ (plays a riff on the "Wedding March") ♪ Tears roll down her cheeks ♪ ♪ And happy thoughts run through her head ♪ ♪ As he whispers low, with this ring, I thee wed ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Golden ring, golden ring with one tiny little stone ♪ ♪ Shining ring, shining ring ♪ ♪ Now at last it's found a home ♪ ♪ By itself, by itself it's just a cold metallic thing ♪ ♪ Only love can make a golden wedding ring ♪ (soulful mellow Country guitar music) ♪♪ ♪ In a little... ♪ ♪ In a small two room apartment ♪ ♪ As they fight their final round ♪ ♪ He says, you won't admit it ♪ ♪ But I know you're runnin' around ♪ ♪ She says, one thing's for certain ♪ ♪ I don't love you anymore ♪ ♪ And throws down the ring as she walks out the door ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Golden ring, golden ring with one tiny little stone ♪ ♪ Cast aside, cast aside ♪ ♪ Like the love that's dead and gone ♪ ♪ By itself, by itself it's just a cold metallic thing ♪ ♪ Only love can make a golden wedding ring ♪ (soulful mellow Country guitar music) ♪♪ ♪ In a pawn shop in Chicago on a sunny summer's day ♪ ♪ A couple gazes at the wedding rings there on display ♪ ♪ Golden ring ♪ - Oh yeah.

(chuckles) Wow, there's a reason that's a classic.

And it holds up so well.

- Thank you.

- It's just a remarkable song.

It's interesting to me- - Thank you.

- You're talking about Bobby Braddock saying, "You wanna help me write this song?"

- [Rafe] Mm-hmm.

- Obviously, Bobby's a member of the Hall of Fame as well.

But for somebody who you would think would have all the confidence in the world- - Yeah.

- I'm curious as to why on that day he would turn to the closest songwriter and say, "Help me with this."

What is that dynamic?

- Well, Bobby's written a lot of songs all by himself, so he doesn't have to co-write anything probably if he doesn't want, but- - Just didn't feel... He needed something else.

- I think he told me he had gotten to a point where he wanted to have some help with it, maybe he was at a place where he was kind of stuck or just wanted some new energy.

And on it, I don't know what the reason was or maybe my angels were tricking him (Ken chuckles) into writing that song with me to help me out.

- I think you both won from that partnership.

(Rafe chuckles) And I would think that at that moment, Rafe Van Hoy became the hottest songwriter in town.

- It definitely made my stock go up- - Yeah.

- Around town for sure.

I think not a lot of people knew who I was before.

I'd had like three chart records in the 20s and 15 and stuff like that before then, one by Dottie West and Barbara Fairchild and stuff, but I didn't have anything that was on that magnitude.

And that song exploded.

Of course, it's George and Tammy.

They were like king and queen of Country music back then.

And I think they released it maybe within a week or two after we wrote it, or after they recorded it the next week, and it was number one in four months.

- Did they come back to you for more?

- Well, they.... I never... Actually, I met George once, but I didn't interface with them.

Bobby knew George, and maybe he knew Tammy, too, but most of it went through our publisher and went through Billy Sherrill, their producer.

And so, it was kind of not a connection in that way, but they went on to record a lot of Bobby songs.

I think Bobby has had 28 George Jones cuts, (Ken chuckles) which is unbelievable.

- All you need.

- Yeah.

- That would be it.

- Exactly, and several hits by them.

- You had a long and productive partnership, working relationship with Deborah Allen.

- [Rafe] Yeah.

- And in fact, "Baby I Lied" is what gave her a foothold and launched her career in many respects.

Can you talk a little bit about where that came from?

- Yeah.

I think, if my memory is correct, that she had already been given the opportunity to record with a guy named Charlie Calello, who was a producer, arranger.

Legendary guy.

He's got like 50 gigantic hits by huge artists: Barbra Streisand, Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons, on and on and on and on.

And he had done Juice Newton's record, one of the first Country records I think that he had done, and she was gonna record with him.

So we were trying to write songs for that project, and we were friends and knew Rory Bourke, and he had written some, I think "I Know a Heartache When I See One" for Jennifer Warnes, and some other Country songs, but also Pop songs, too, and we were kind of leaning in that direction.

So Rory came over one day, and when he walked in the house, I remember we didn't even sit down, we were just kind of wandered in to the living room or somewhere, and he said, "Hey, I've got this idea for a song, and if you guys don't like it, it's okay, it won't hurt my feelings."

So he said whatever idea it was, which I can't remember what that was, but Deborah and I didn't respond to that immediately.

We were thinking about the idea, 'cause with good idea, instead of saying, "Oh, that's cool," we were actually thinking of ways the different directions you could take the idea that he had.

And so, there was a little bit of a pause there and Rory says, "Wait a minute.

Did I say my feelings wouldn't be hurt?

I lied."

(Ken chuckles) And then I said, "Wait a minute.

You know, that could be a song right there.

(Ken chuckles) 'Did I Say I Wouldn't Be Hurt,' da, da, da.

'If Our Love Didn't Work.

I lied.'"

And then it became "Baby I Lied," and then within an hour or two, we pretty much had the song.

- Wow.

It's not fair to you, but could you do a little bit of that?

- There's no way I can sing that song, but I'd probably do a verse of it.

- That's all.

- But that goes into the stratosphere- - I understand.

- And I've got the range of about half an octave, (Ken chuckles) especially today.

(chuckles) I don't even know what key I did there.

Let's see.

(Rafe humming) (guitar strumming) (Rafe humming) (soulful guitar music) ♪ Did I say I wouldn't be hurt ♪ ♪♪ ♪ If our love just didn't work ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Did I say that I'd be okay ♪ ♪♪ ♪ If we said goodbye ♪ ♪♪ ♪ And did I tell myself ♪ ♪♪ Oh.

♪ I'd be ♪ I think that's all.

♪ That I'd be ♪ ♪ Da da da that you walked out ♪ I never played this song.

♪ And forget about these feelings inside ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Baby, I lied ♪ ♪ When I told you I could walk away ♪ ♪ Baby, I lied ♪ ♪ I don't know that I can sing this song ♪ (Ken laughing) ♪ And I can't play ♪ ♪ The music too then ♪ (Rafe scat singing) ♪ At the time ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Baby, I lied ♪ ♪♪ ♪ Baby, I lied ♪ (soulful guitar music) Something like that.

- All right.

That was valiant.

(chuckles) Thank you for that.

(Rafe chuckles) All right, you rallied and- - And it had some words in there too, you know?

- Yeah, I know, that's all good.

And you're just so gracious because I almost never do that.

It was just the... (Rafe chuckles) I almost never surprise- - Well, you know, it's kind of fun.

- Yeah, it is fun.

- I'll say- - It is fun- - "Can I remember..." - I've had a few look at me blankly and go, "I remember nothing about that song, and haven't played it in 40 years."

So thank you.

- Usually, I can remember the music to things, I can't remember the key, 'cause I think in numbers- - Right.

- And words are... You know, like "Golden Ring," I messed up.

I've sung that thing a million, billion times, and there's always that chance- - Yeah.

- That I'm gonna glitch on the words, my brain does that.

- Well, you continued to actually work with Deborah.

- Yeah.

- And Rory for that matter.

- [Rafe] Yep.

- Is there a point in which you find co-writers who go, "Yeah, this is comfortable.

These are people I'm gonna keep coming back to"?

- Oh, yeah.

I mean, songwriting to me can be like the most fun you can have, or it can be like going to the dentist- - Yeah- - You know?

Or it can turn into like, somebody said, a co-stare where everybody's just looking at each other and nothing's really happening.

But if you put enough coffee in there, usually you're gonna get something out, you know?

- How's the dynamic different when you're just writing by yourself?

- It is a different thing, and I do more of that now.

I've written by myself all my life off and on and had co-writes also.

I write more by myself now.

I kind of enjoy it because, for me, it's a different process because I can take more time to ruminate and think about things and work on something and bounce around, work on something else, and let my subconscious mind develop it while I'm not thinking about it.

I come back and then maybe I'll go, "Oh, maybe I should put that here, that there," and, you know, things come to me like a download.

When you're writing with other people, you're a little bit more on the spot, but it's more fun, you know?

You can have more fun with more company there.

- Well, you have had- - And help.

- Countless hits, which is why you are in the Hall of Fame, but there's a song that you wrote for Michael Martin Murphey that I have to believe is a wedding staple and- - Maybe, I would think so, maybe, yeah.

- Yeah, and played all over the place.

And it's just, you know, you will forever be associated with "What's Forever For."

What's the story behind that very moving song?

- Well... I don't want to... Like I'll digress too far if I let myself.

But back in the day before there were songwriters in the round, there were things called guitar pulls, and they happened at people's houses.

Nobody really did 'em at clubs or out in public, but people would have a party and there would be several songwriters there.

And their plan was, at a certain point in the evening, they'd get chairs in a circle or in a living room or something, people either pass a guitar around or people would bring their own, and they would play the latest song or two or three that they wrote, new stuff, old stuff, whatever.

It was like show and tell, I guess, with alcohol involved.

(Ken chuckles) And it became a thing.

So it was like a picking party, basically.

And I got invited to a lot of those, and I had gotten to be friends with some really amazing writers like Red Lane and Mickey Newbury and some of these guys.

And then I got invited to some of those guitar pulls, and, man, it would go around the room, and then I'd start thinking about "What am I gonna play?"

And the closer it got to me, the more nervous I got, (chuckles) 'cause I realized I didn't have anything to follow Red Lane or any of those guys, you know?

And in fact, I remember one of them getting so serious where it was so great and I felt so insecure about what songs I had to play, I excused myself to go to the bathroom, and I didn't come back.

- Oh, wow.

Wow.

- I just did an Irish goodbye.

(Ken chuckles) Yeah.

(Ken laughing) "I'll talk to these guys tomorrow," you know, "I'm not following that."

But anyway so I remember thinking almost like sending up a prayer, you know, asking my angels, "Please give me an idea that is gonna be significant enough that it's gonna change, you know, up my level of songs and be something that I can play at one of these events," and just kind of... I was just wanting to kind of write something that was better than what I had written to that point.

And I took a nap on this sofa, and when I woke up a few hours later, I had this idea about some friends of mine who were a couple that, you know, back in the day, it was pretty wild times and for people getting together and breaking up was not an unusual thing.

It's kind of like a weekly occurrence, you know?

But this couple had been together for years and I though, "Well, they would be the last people that were ever gonna break up."

And so, I started thinking about that.

And then I started getting this download, just like as I requested of these ideas about talking about them, right?

And then when I got to where the title thing was, "If Love Never Lasts Forever," and I remember writing down, "What's Forever Good For?"

And my angel was probably shaking their head going, "He didn't get it right.

He's still messing it up."

And so, after staring at it for about an hour, I went, "Oh, I gotta mark out 'Good.'

(Ken chuckles) I don't need that in there."

But, anyway, so it was just... That's kind of how it happened.

And I promised to always appreciate it and be grateful.

- I can't believe it, but our time is already just about up.

- Okay.

- And we cannot leave the room without you doing that song.

- [Rafe] Aw, thank you.

- Could you please close this out for us?

- Sure.

(Rafe plays "What's Forever For") ♪ What's the glory in living ♪ ♪ Doesn't anybody ever ♪ ♪ stay together anymore ♪ ♪ And if love never lasts forever, tell me ♪ ♪ What's forever for ♪ ♪♪ (mellow guitar music) ♪♪ (mellow guitar music continues) ♪♪ (mellow guitar music continues) ♪♪ ♪♪ - [Announcer 2] For more information on "The Songwriters," visit SongwritersShow.org ♪♪ - [Announcer 1] "The Songwriters" is supported in part by: the Nashville Convention and Visitors Corporation, Rusty and Kacie Gaston, the Mike Curb Foundation, SESAC, BMI, and ASCAP, Rich and Charlotte Hallworth, Kerry O'Neil and Carla Wallace.

Additional support is provided by... (bright piano music) ♪♪ (bright piano music continues) ♪♪ (bright chiming music) (triumphant music)